Ministry moves at the speed of relationships.

Ten years into his church planting journey, Oscar Perez* talks with me about a leadership philosophy that is informed by the concept of “horizontal leadership,” the opposite of hierarchy. Our conversation is inspired by Gary Hamel’s The Future of Management, published by the Harvard Business Review. A lot of times, marketplace leadership books don’t transfer well to church leadership, but Oscar makes a compelling argument that horizontal and collaborative leadership can lead to healthier churches, ministry, and more flourishing in the Kingdom of God.

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:**The Future of Management by Gary Hamel

*Oscar is the lead pastor and church planter of VividLife church in Plano, Texas. He also coaches pastors with Thriving in Ministry. Follow him on FB and IG.

“My growing love for the clowns in Rome made me desire to clown around a little myself and to speak about such foolish things as being alone, treasuring emptiness, standing naked before God, and simply seeing things for what they are. I came to feel that in this full, imposing, venerable, and busy city there must be a very deep desire to live out the other side of our being, the side that wants to play, dance, smile, and do many other useless things." -Henri Nouwen

On this episode, my guest Rebecca Johnston* talks about making the adjustment to pastoring solo during a crisis in her family. When trouble hits, we all need to remember what is most important and return to the grounding and sometimes “foolish” practices that help us stay anchored in the life of faith. Our discussion of Henri Nouwen’s book Clowning in Rome: Reflections on Solitude, Celibacy, Prayer and Contemplation provided a great frame for our conversation.

01:30 Planting Microchurches

12:30 What is “dinner church”?

17:20 Pastoring through a spouse’s mental health crisis

27:29 About Henri Nouwen and Clowning in Rome

31:45 Four “clown-like elements for the spiritual life.

33:00 What does celibacy as “embracing emptiness” mean for single and married folks?

34:45 How celibacy teaches the church about God’s nature.

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:**Clowning in Rome: Reflections on Solitude, Celibacy, Prayer and Contemplation

*Rebecca is an intentionally co-vocational church pastor, ordained minister, grad student, mom of two, and proud midwesterner. You can follow her house-church renovations on IG.

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -C.S. Lewis

Sometimes ministry seems absolutely impossible. And it is, when we rely on our own strength and skillsets. What does it look like to keep coming back to the transcendent Source at work in our lives—God who wants to bring resurrection and new life to the world?

I explore this question with my guest, Mandy Smith, a pastor and award-winning author and speaker. Our conversation is inspired by two books. First, Mandy’s own Confessions of an Amateur Saint: The Christian Leader’s Journey from Self-Sufficiency to Reliance on God and John Hendrix’s graphic novel, The Mythmakers: The Remarkable Fellowship between C.S. Lewis and JRR Tolkien.

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:**Confessions of an Amateur Saint: The Christian Leader’s Journey from Self-Sufficiency to Reliance on God by Mandy SmithThe Vulnerable Pastor: How Human Limitations Empower Our Ministry by Mandy SmithUnfettered: Imagining a Childlike Faith beyond the Baggage of Western Culture by Mandy SmithThe Mythmakers: The Remarkable Fellowship of C.S. Lewis & J.R.R. Tolkien (A Graphic Novel) by John HendrixThe Faithful Spy: Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Plot to Kill Hitler by John HendrixThe Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. LewisTolkien On Fairy-Stories by J.R.R. TolkienThe Lord of the Rings Trilogy by J.R.R. TolkienHow (Not) to Be Secular: Reading Charles Taylor by James K.A. SmithA Secular Age by Charles TaylorRe-Enchanting the Text by Cheryl Bridges Johns

*Follow Mandy on IG and learn more about her ministry at https://thewayistheway.org.

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The stereotype of gender differences in natural ability in math and science persists despite evidence to the contrary. Boys are often told in subtle ways that success in these areas reflects their essence and will continue; girls, that theirs is due to effort and is, therefore, less certain. Girls often receive less attention and instruction even though their success equals that of boys. Since girls’ self-confidence is buoyed by feedback, the relative absence of it diminishes their self-perception as talented in these “masculine” subjects and decreases the likelihood they will continue in them. Textbooks confirm that women rarely rank among the achievers. -Susan Harris Howell, Buried Talents

My conversation with Crystal Martin is inspired by Susan Harris Howell’s Buried Talents: Overcoming Gendered Socialization to Answer God’s Call. Crystal, who led a national network for women in ministry, helps unpack Howell’s assessment of how we arrived at a gender “gap” between men and women in church leadership roles and responsibilities. Crystal also helps us consider the kind of flourishing that could be achieved for both women and men if only the church can overcome the limiting effects of gendered socialization.

01:49 State of women in ministry in the church15:55 on Crystal’s reading life18:41 Buried Talents conversation

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:**Buried Talents: Overcoming Gendered Socialization to Answer God’s Call by Susan Harris HowellUp Home by Ruth J. SimmonsYour Vocational Credo by Deborah Koehn LoydNorthern Seminary

*Follow Crystal on IG.

"God isn’t a sadist who delights in using agony to teach us a lesson. But in the alchemy of redemption, God can take what is only sorrow and transform it into the very path by which we learn to love God and let ourselves be loved. This is the strange (and usually unwanted) way of the abundant life–the dying necessary to bring resurrection." -Tish Harrison Warren, Prayer in the Night

In seasons of grief, confusion, or overwhelm when we don’t know how or what to pray, the centuries-old prayers of the Church can comfort and anchor us in hope.

My conversation with Jennie Crumpler* is inspired by her life as a campus minister serving on the collegiate staff of New Life Christian Fellowship in Blacksburg, Virginia, and by Tish Harrison Warren’s Prayer in the Night: For Those Who Work or Watch or Weep. Jennie and I reflect on what it means survive dark seasons and walk with others as they do the same.

01:00 Campus ministry conversation14:57 Prayer in the Night conversation

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:**

Prayer in the Night: For Those Who Work or Watch or Weep by Tish Harrison Warren

Common Prayer: A Liturgy for Ordinary Radicals by Shane Claiborne and Jonathan Wison-Hartgrove

Northern Seminary

*Follow Jennie on IG.

"It is an all too familiar story....A church leader starts out with a deep sense of trust and dependence upon God. They are surrendered....But, as the ministry flourishes and numbers grow, as is inevitable under God's power, organizing ministry becomes strained. The struggle to make decisions efficiently takes over. The pastor who once lived "under" God's power begins exercising increasing control and 'power over' under the pretext of getting things done for God." -David Fitch, Reckoning with Power

In evangelical ministry spaces, there’s often an emphasis on defining ministry wins by numbers—attendance, bank balances, baptisms, salvations, buildings, and campuses. There’s nothing wrong with big numbers. Or small ones. But what happens if our big numbers entice us to exercise power in worldly ways, rather than in godly submission to one another?

My conversation with pastor Seth Major* is inspired by his ministry in a historically neglected neighborhood in Peoria, IL, and by David Fitch’s Reckoning with Power: Why the Church Fails When It’s on the Wrong Side of Power. Seth breaks down for us how Fitch distinguishes between two main postures Christians often take toward power: the use of worldly power over others to compel what we believe is on God’s agenda or submission to one another under Christ’s Lordship as a group discerns the will of God together.

01:10 Ministry in Historically Neglected Neighborhoods18:50 Reckoning with Power Discussion

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:**

Reckoning with Power: How the Church Fails When It’s on the Wrong Side of Power by David Fitch

Pursuing God’s Will Together: A Discernment Practice for Leadership Groups by Ruth Haley Barton

*Follow Seth on IG or Reachway Church

Your Pastor Reads Books is a listener-supported podcast. To receive new posts and support the show, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

YPRB host Heather Weber is a book-obsessed pastor, author, and holistic life and leadership coach. She is the author of Dear Boy,: An Epistolary Memoir. Find out more about her coaching, pastoral direction, and creative projects at www.heatherweber.org. And, subscribe to her Dear Exiles newsletter at heatherweber.substack.com.

"There’s no undoing the secular; there’s just the task of learning how (not) to live—and perhaps even believe—in a secular age. -James K.A. Smith, How (Not) to Be Secular

Christians might try hard not to “be secular,” but there’s almost no escaping the impact of secularism on the way we think about ourselves and the ways in which we find (or make) meaning out of our lives. My conversation with pastor Andrew Meher* is inspired by James K.A. Smith’s How (Not) to Be Secular. Andrew breaks down for us, in simple terms, the ways in which practices of the Church can help us resist our tendency toward an individualized and secular worldview.

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:

A Secular Age by Charles TaylorHow (Not) to Be Secular: Reading Charles Taylor by James K.A. Smith

*Follow Andrew on IG or at The Plant Church.

“Every book has a soul, the soul of the person who wrote it and the soul of those who read it and dream about it.” ― Carlos Ruiz Zafón, The Angel's Game

We catch glimpses of the life of the Apostle Paul within the pages of the New Testament—his letters and the book of Acts. My conversation with pastor Tom Jacobs is inspired by N.T. Wright’s book, Paul: A Biography. Tom does a deep dive on Wright’s book, illuminating Paul’s conversion on the Damascus road and the extent of his torture and suffering for the sake of the gospel. Wrapped up in that conversation is more about the ministry rejection every pastor faces and the process of “reconstructing” after we’ve deconstructed faith.

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:*

Ever Ancient, Ever New: The Allure of Liturgy for a New Generation by Winfield Bevins

Spiritual Leadership by J. Oswald Sanders

The Hardy Boys by Franklin W. Dixon

The Complete Grimms Fairy TalesPaul: A Biography by N.T. Wrigh

tDes Moines Anglican

Have you ever wondered how to teach theology to toddlers? Or, why some pastors are able to engage in ministry with so much gratitude despite its inherent challenges and sorrows? I hope you enjoy this conversation with church planters Austin and Amy Gannett* from Greenville, South Carolina. It’s inspired by C.S. Lewis’ book, The Horse and His Boy, a classic novel for all ages that offers us glimpses of the beauty and truth of the Christian faith.

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:*

Tiny Theologians and Tiny Theologians Podcast

ABCs of TheologyBible Study Schoolhouse

The Horse and His Boy by C.S. LewisT

he Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy by J.R.R. Tolkien

Becoming C.S. Lewis (3-Volume Set) by Harry Lee Poe

Malcom Guite StoreThis Day: Collected and New Sabbath Poems by Wendell Berry

*Follow Austin and Amy’s ministry at Trinity Church Greenville, or follow Amy on IG. Links to her Tiny Theologians and Bible Study Schoolhouse are above.

Insofar as we live as though God were not present, moment-by-moment, and as though this wasn’t the most important aspect of any present moment, we are living in the flesh.

-Gregory A. Boyd, Present Perfect

What life-changing moments do we miss when we’re focused on the next big thing? Are we aware of God in the moment with us? And, at what point should pastors refer congregants to professional mental health practitioners? These questions and this conversation with licensed mental health counselor and ordained minister Troy Renter* are inspired by Gregory A. Boyd’s Present Perfect: Finding God in the Now.

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:

Present Perfect: Finding God in the Now

*Follow Troy’s ministry at Harvest of Hope Church in Harlan, IA.