Barry and James have words with author / historian / definitely NOT apologist John Dickson (@johnpauldickson), whose new book is all about the very checkered history of the Church. Does religion poison everything, as Christopher Hitchens maintained? What are we to make of the Crusades, for example?

• Bullies & Saints by John Dickson
• Undeceptions (John's podcast)

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Production and music by Cooper & Cary. Opening theme by Roger Taylor, AKA Beyond Our Galaxy.

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Production and music by Cooper & Cary. Opening theme by Beyond Our Galaxy.