Murph welcomes Steve Kramer, a retired FBI attorney with a rich background in law enforcement and legal practice.  They discuss Kramer's journey into law, the significance of DNA in criminal investigations, and the evolution of genetic genealogy as an investigative tool.  Steve Kramer discusses the intricate details of the Golden State Killer case, highlighting the evolution of the killer's crimes, the role of DNA and genetic genealogy in solving cold cases, and the emotional impact on victims and their families. He shares insights into the investigative process that led to the identification and arrest of Joseph DeAngelo, the Golden State Killer.  Kramer talks about working in retirement to continue supporting genetic genealogy as a forensic investigative tool.