Clay interviews Megan Gorman, the author of the excellent new book, All the President's Money: How the Men who Governed America Governed their Money. Gorman is a nationally respected money manager for some of the wealthiest Americans. She thought it would be interesting to explore the way American presidents have handled their finances, before, during, and after their time in office. Gerald Ford is a pivotal figure in this regard, because he left the presidency as a young man and had to find a way to make a living beyond the White House. But we spent most of our time talking about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson as bookends in this history: Washington was a brilliant money manager. In fact, says Gorman, he is the richest president if you equalize currency values. Jefferson was a deplorable money manager. He died helplessly in debt. In fact, his daughter Martha had to live on public charity after his death in 1826. And yet, no president was as publicly frugal as Jefferson. In this as in all things, Jefferson was a paradox. This episode was recorded on August 4, 2025.