Matt Johnson used to live in Mark Driscoll’s basement as “one of the interns” (inside joke you’ll find out later) and eventually became an integral part of Mars Hill Church's operations and ministries, as a pastor. 

On this episode, Matt and Joey reflect on Christianity Today’s The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Podcast, including guesswork on Driscoll’s heart, ("that only God can judge") mental state and marriage.  

Reflecting on the story of Mars Hill, Matt is left with a faith unshaken but a complete distrust of the competitive-driven, consumer-minded, charismatically-led model of church-planting and that model of church in general.    

We discuss here the power of charisma, “spiritual narcissism,” and whether things are different at  Driscoll’s new church in Phoenix.  There’s also some “Driscoll Myths” debunked, including Mark’s “they’re out to get me” narrative of the "divorce."   We also ask Matt if he was personally intimidated by Mark and whether he currently has empathy for him.  

At the beginning of the episode, Ellen shares with Joey and Ryan Amick, her problem with alcohol.

17 Years At Mars Hill on Mockingbird.

Getting Jesus Wrong by Matt Johnson

Getting Jesus Wrong (Matt Johnson) Episode 202 

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Other music originally composed by Joel Hamilton and Joel Hamilton + friends, and Ray Deezy. 

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Theme Song by Stoy Prioleau (aka: Riggy Roc): Apple Music