Fresh off releasing the greatest album of 2021, Middle Kids frontwoman Hannah Joy makes a welcome return to the show to talk about The National's seminal 2013 album 'Trouble Will Find Me'. We talk about The National's reputation as a band who make 'grower' albums, how this album represents the culmination of the band's career to that time, the use of rhythm, space and texture and how that influenced the new Middle Kids album, integrating family dynamics into a band, how to age gracefully as a rock band and the cocktail bar in Portland where the drinks are inspired by National songs. Plus Hannah reveals the most contentions albums each Middle Kids member has tried to play in the band van while on tour.