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Economist and sociologist Dr. Juliet Schor has spent decades studying working time, overwork, consumer culture, and now the global movement toward shorter workweeks. In this conversation, we unpack what the data actually shows about four-day weeks: productivity, well-being, turnover, carbon emissions, and the business case for working less.
Juliet shares stories from companies and public organizations around the world—from advertising agencies and restaurants to nurses, startups, and local governments, showing how shorter hours can reduce burnout, improve quality, and save money even when output doesn’t “go up.” She also explains why shorter hours act as a forcing function for innovation, how they enable lower-carbon lifestyles, and why we’ve been stuck at a five-day week for 85 years.
We connect the research to our nine-year experiment with a 5-hour workday, and explore what might be possible with a future 4-day, reduced-hour workweek.
Why listen
Highlights & timestamps
00:17 – Welcome to Five Hour Formula
Alex frames the five-hour workday experiment and introduces Juliet as a leading researcher on shorter workweeks.
00:33 – Who is Dr. Juliet Schor?
Juliet’s background as an economist/sociologist, The Overworked American, and her latest book Four Days a Week.
02:21 – Origin story
Growing up in coal country, her father’s work with mine workers, and how she became interested in working time.
03:28 – From surveys to global trials
Early surveys showing huge appetite for a four-day week, the long “quiet period,” and how Joe O’Connor and Four Day Week Global pulled her into large-scale trials during and after the pandemic.
05:08 – Why shorter hours once seemed like a luxury
Inequality, wage stagnation, and economic distress pushed shorter workweeks off the agenda—until COVID forced a rethink of how and why we work.
08:07 – Shorter workweeks, climate & carbon
What the data actually shows on emissions: modest commuting gains, income as a big driver of carbon, and why countries that choose more free time over more output see larger climate benefits.
11:01 – Time, money & behavior change
Shorter hours as an “enabling condition” for more sustainable lifestyles and more intentional choices—echoed by Alex’s experience with the 5-hour day.
12:30 – 5-hour days vs 4-day weeks
Comparing Alex’s 25-hour workweek with the 32-hour model in the trials, and how both create space for better lives and lower-carbon habits.
15:10 – 100-80-100 vs 100-80-80
Why some organizations maintain output (100-80-100) while others accept less output (100-80-80) but win through lower turnover, better outcomes, and reduced hiring costs—especially in healthcare, restaurants, and nonprofits.
17:05 – Case studies across sectors
Nurses with better patient outcomes, chefs who finally stay, and an ad agency slashing 30–40% turnover while clients love the stability.
22:10 – A UK council saves ~£750k
How South Cambridgeshire Council used a four-day week to attract talent, reduce temp staff and bonuses, still save money, and weather political backlash.
25:29 – Speed-up or working smarter?
Research showing real work reorganization and self-reported gains in competence and productivity—with little evidence of simple speed-up.
26:05 – What actually changes inside companies
In white-collar firms: fewer/better meetings and more focus time.
In breweries, restaurants, and factories: staffing changes, time-and-motion improvements, and burnout reduction.
28:32 – Turnover, meetings, and hidden inefficiencies
Why even already-efficient teams gain massively from better retention, while many companies still have huge upside in cutting meeting overload and distraction.
30:00 – A startup “saved” by the four-day week
A satellite internet startup handles a huge new contract without burning out the team—thanks to the four-day week, better documentation, and long-delayed process improvements.
33:38 – The four-day week as a forcing function
Shorter hours act as a constraint that forces innovation, better processes, documentation, and smarter use of tech and AI.
34:13 – Parkinson’s Law & 85 years at 40 hours
How being stuck at a five-day, 40-hour template has baked inefficiency into white-collar work: when you can’t go home, work expands to fill the time.
35:19 – Why Fridays are different
Research and lived experience show Fridays are already lower-intensity, making them the logical first day to reclaim.
37:44 – Can employees move the needle?
Examples of internal champions and unions successfully pushing for four-day weeks at places like Kickstarter, climate organizations, and early NGOs.
41:06 – “Burning people out won’t help your cause”
How the pandemic shifted the narrative from “luxury” to “necessity” in mission-driven and high-stress work.
42:10 – Juliet’s personal schedule & Fridays
Her evolution from long, inefficient academic hours to more efficient work after kids and, now, treating Fridays as her own day for exercise, lunches, reading, and only the work she chooses.
45:26 – What the research means for the 5-hour workday
Juliet affirms Alex’s nine-year experiment as a standout example: large time reduction, long-term sustainability, and strong outcomes.
47:50 – What’s next: 4 days × ~6 hours?
Alex shares a vision for four 6-hour days; Juliet explains why that’s increasingly viable with AI and why an extra full day off is often described as life-changing.
48:52 – “No amount of money would get me to go back”
Survey data showing that many four-day week participants would not return to a five-day schedule for any pay increase.
Resources & Links
Futurist and author Alex Soojung-Kim Pang joins Alex Gafford to unpack why the most productive people and teams don’t work more, they work better. We dive into Pang’s trilogy (The Distraction Addiction, Rest, Shorter), the research behind 4–5 hours of daily deep work, and how design thinking turns shorter-hours experiments into durable operating systems. We also explore AI’s role, global adoption trends, and practical steps any leader can take this quarter.
Why listen
Highlights & timestamps
The playbook (quick start)
Best Quotes from Alex Pang:
Resources & mentions
Connect with Alex Pang
Connect with 5-Hour Formula
Credits
Host: Alex Gafford
Guest: Alex Soojung-Kim Pang
Theme: Getting more done in less time — and reinvesting the saved hours in what matters most.
Guest: Dr. Ellen Joan Ford, Author of #WorkSchoolHours, TEDx Speaker, and Leadership Consultant
Episode Summary
In this episode, Alex Gafford talks with Dr. Ellen Joan Ford, former New Zealand Army Officer, researcher, and author of #WorkSchoolHours. Together they unpack how the modern 9–5 is failing working parents and what it looks like to redesign work around real life.
Dr. Ford shares the three core principles behind the Work School Hours movement, valuing life outside work, focusing on outputs (not hours), and enabling flexibility, and how these ideas benefit both families and businesses.
From military leadership lessons in Antarctica to corporate case studies, this conversation explores the future of work for parents, leaders, and anyone who believes there’s a better way to work and live.
Key Themes & Ideas
1. Why the 9–5 Is Broken for Parents
2. The Fourth Option: Work School Hours
3. Leadership Lessons from the Military
4. Flexibility Beyond the Office
5. Why This Makes Business Sense
Takeaways
Resources & Links
Connect with Alex: LinkedIn - Alex Gafford
Next Episode
Next up in this new series of conversations with experts reimagining work around the world, Alex Pang joins the show.
He’s the author of The Distraction Addiction, Rest, and Shorter, and one of the leading voices in the global movement to work less and live better.
In this all-time classic conversation, we dive into the science of rest, the 4-day week revolution, and how to design a workday that maximizes creativity, focus, and fulfillment.
If I asked you to envision your perfect day — one that leaves you energized, satisfied, and fulfilled — what would it look like? Not a vacation or a lucky break, but a normal day. That’s the question at the heart of this episode.
Inspired by Heroic’s Brian Johnson and his idea of the Masterpiece Day (itself borrowed from legendary coach John Wooden), Alex shows how to design an intentional day that combines art, structure, and experimentation. This episode ties together all the big ideas from the 5-Hour Formula series — from time and vision to routines, habits, prioritization, productivity, and energy.
You’ll learn how to sketch your ideal day, build the rhythms that make it possible, and track your progress so you can live more days with intention — and fewer by default.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode
Today’s Experiment: Track Your Intentional Day
For this week’s experiment, start tracking just one thing from four categories. Keep it simple, do it for seven days, and treat it like a checklist:
Do this for a week. Next week, add one or two more. Over time, your tracker becomes a blueprint for your intentional day.
Key Takeaway
When you track your day, you live it with intention. And when you stack enough intentional days together, you begin to see your masterpiece take shape.
As John Wooden said: “Make each day your masterpiece.”
Example: Alex’s Intentional Day Tracker
References & Resources
Connect with Alex
Managing time is important, but managing energy is the multiplier. In this episode, Alex explains why your physiology drives your psychology, and how energy fundamentals like sleep, diet, and movement are the foundation for focus. He also breaks down the recovery protocols that sustain performance inside a 5-Hour Workday.
This isn’t just theory, it’s a playbook for becoming a cognitive athlete. You’ll learn how to generate, protect, and recover your energy so you can deliver eight hours of output in just five.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode
Today’s Experiments
Choose one experiment this week (or both, if you’re ambitious):
1. The Wind-Down Alarm (Sleep)
2. The Nature Break (Recovery)
Key Takeaway
Time management matters. But energy is the multiplier.
Your physiology drives your psychology — and how you manage your energy determines your mood, creativity, decision-making, and ultimately the quality of your work.
Pick one fundamental — sleep, diet, exercise, or recovery — and start experimenting. That’s how you train like a cognitive athlete and get more done in less time.
References & Resources
Connect with Alex
Coming Next Week
In the next episode, we’ll zoom out from energy and recovery and look at your ideal day and how to track it. This session will pull together everything we’ve covered so far: time, goals, routines, habits, prioritization, productivity and energy. Think of it as the blueprint for bringing all the fundamentals into daily life.
Meetings are the biggest time sink in most work calendars—yet very few of them actually move the needle. In this final episode of the Productivity Pyramid series, we tackle the hidden cost of meeting overload and explore how to reclaim your time without sacrificing collaboration.
In This Episode:
If you’ve ever felt stuck in back-to-back meetings wondering “When am I supposed to do my actual work?”, you’re not alone.
This episode explores:
Featured Framework: C.R.I.S.P.
A practical acronym to redesign your meetings:
This Week’s Experiments:
Part 1: Audit Your Meetings
Part 2: Reclaim Your Time
Try these experiments for 1–2 weeks and watch your calendar become leaner, sharper, and more energizing.
Mentioned in This Episode:
Connect with Alex:
Tried the time block experiment? Hit a flow state?
DM Alex on LinkedIn—he’d love to hear what changed for you.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-gafford-09b2b87/
Stay Tuned:
Next episode: Energy Management (more important than time management) how managing our energy by the way we sleep, eat, move and rest determines the quality of our work, ability to focus and make decisions. A key idea in the shorter workday.
What if the most powerful productivity hack wasn’t doing more—it was protecting time for what matters most?
In this episode, Alex breaks down Time Blocking, the #1 tool that helped his team eliminate distractions, reduce reactivity, and consistently finish high-value work—faster.
You’ll learn how to:
You’ll also hear insights from a recent beta group who ran this experiment and saw immediate improvements in both productivity and measurable KPIs.
This Episode's Experiment:
The Time Blocking Challenge
Use this 3-step system to build and protect one high-value time block each day:
→ Choose one high-value task (not just urgent)
→ Batch similar work to avoid switching
→ Protect your time using these 4 strategies:
Then track your results:
Try it for one week—and see what happens.
Resources Mentioned:
The ONE Thing by Gary Keller & Jay Papasan
Connect with Alex:
Tried the time block experiment? Hit a flow state?
DM Alex on LinkedIn—he’d love to hear what changed for you.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-gafford-09b2b87/
Stay Tuned:
Next episode: The final proactive strategy in the productivity pyramid -Optimizing Meetings—how to reduce, improve, and restructure your calendar to make space for real, focused work.
What if you could work fewer hours—and actually get more done? In this episode, Alex introduces the Productivity Pyramid, the framework behind the 5-hour workday that helped his company increase productivity, revenue and retention all while working less.
You’ll learn how to:
Whether you're working 8 hours, 10, or even 12+ hours a day, this episode will help you reframe how you think about productivity—and give you the tools to reclaim your focus, your time, and your energy.
Topics Covered:
This Episode's Experiment:
The One-Day Time Audit
Track your time in 15-minute blocks for a full workday using 3 columns:
→ Activity – What you did
→ Distractions – What pulled your focus
→ Observations – What stood out
Run the audit, review your patterns, and see what happens when you become truly aware of how you’re spending your time.
Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Alex:
Have a breakthrough from the time audit? Found your biggest time waster?
DM Alex on LinkedIn — he’d love to hear how this experiment changes the way you work.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-gafford-09b2b87/
Stay Tuned:
Next episode: Alex dives into the top layer of the Productivity Pyramid—Proactive Strategies, including time blocking, AM/PM routines, and how to protect your energy for deep, focused work.
In this episode of the 5-Hour Formula, we’re diving into the truth about prioritization—why most people get it wrong, and how the most successful people in the world approach it differently.
Spoiler: they don’t start with to-do lists. They start with better questions, better boundaries, and better systems.
If you want to work fewer hours while getting more of the right things done, this episode is a must-listen. I’ll walk you through the three big ideas that have transformed how I plan my weeks and protect my time—and how you can do the same.
What You’ll Learn:
Weekly Experiment:
Take action by following this 3-step experiment:
Block time to plan your week (offsite and undistracted)
Pro Tip: Color-code your personal time. Make it pop.
Resources + Mentions:
Recap of the 3 Big Ideas:
Join the Conversation:
Have you tried planning your week this way? DM me on LinkedIn or leave a comment—I’d love to hear how this experiment works for you.
Episode Summary
In this episode, I share the single most powerful strategy that changed everything for me during my Five Hour Workday experiment: habit design. I explain how I went from running on willpower to designing my day with intention using a simple formula that helped me stick to the habits that mattered most.
I talk through:
What I’ve Learned
1. Start with Who I Want to Become
I used to set goals based on results I wanted. But real change happened when I asked:
“Who do I want to be?”
When I tied my habits to identity—“I’m a reader,” “I’m a Spartan athlete,” “I’m a present father”—my behaviors started to align naturally. Each time I acted in alignment, I’d say:
“That’s like me.”
It was a game-changer.
2. I Use Algorithms to Make Habits Stick
I follow a simple structure:
When [trigger], I will [behavior]
Examples from my day:
This formula helped me remove decision fatigue and lock in powerful, automatic habits.
3. I Design Habits Using the Four Laws
From Atomic Habits, I follow these steps when building a new habit:
To break a habit, I reverse the rules:
My Weekly Habit Design Experiment
At the end of this episode, I guide you through a 3-step process to create your own habit:
Even better, I celebrate each habit—mini fist pump, smile, or just a simple affirmation. This tiny celebration gives me a little dopamine hit and helps the habit stick faster.
Resources That Helped Me
Final Takeaway
I’ve learned that I don’t n...
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