In the late 1960s, criminologists like Todd Clear predicted America would soon start closing its prisons. They couldn’t have been more wrong.

Today on the show, Dan Denvir (@DanielDenvir) from The Dig and Katherine Beckett from the University of Washington Center for Human Rights join Sam to tell the story of mass incarceration in America. We talk to Rutgers criminologist Todd Clear on what we’ve learned from this “grand social experiment,” poet Reginald Dwayne Betts about redemption and violent crime, and Larry Krasner, a progressive lawyer who has shaken up a DA’s race in Philadelphia. Today’s show was made in partnership with The University of Washington Centre for Human Rights, The Dig and Harvard Law School’s Fair Punishment Project.