We use the term “energy transition” to define markets, technology, business models. But what about people?

The transition away from fossil fuels isn’t a nice-to-have. It’s a must-have. The hardest part isn’t building the clean resources. It’s shutting down the dirty stuff at a pace the science demands.

And that means disrupting entire classes of employment and communities that depend on fossil fuel extraction -- in other words, helping people find work somewhere else.

The often-used phrase is the “just transition.”

We have a guest who’s been researching and writing about this subject for years: Sandeep Pai. 

Sandeep the author of “Total Transition: the Human Side of the Renewable Energy Revolution.” He’s a former journalist and a current PhD student and public scholar at the Institute of Resources, Environment and Sustainability at the University of British Columbia. 

We’ll talk with Sandeep about his analysis of the strategies for transitioning fossil fuel workers in economies around the world. 

The Interchange is brought to you by Prisma Energy Solutions. Prisma Energy Solutions provides a unique financing model for battery energy storage systems that can help you reduce energy demand, participate in both energy and ancillary service markets, improve renewables integration, increase system reliability, and reduce your carbon footprint. Get your system today.

We’re also brought to you by Wärtsilä Energy. Wärtsilä is leading the energy transition with The Atlas of 100% Renewable Energy, an open-access tool based on the modeling of 145 countries and regions worldwide to illustrate the cost-optimal 100% renewable energy systems.

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A ‘Just Transition’ for Fossil Fuel Workers

The Interchange: Recharged podcast is a leading global clean tech podcast that has been running since 2017. Every two weeks experts and industry leaders from the world of clean tech and energy join host David Banmiller for a deep dive into their technology, the future of their sector, funding and policy impacts. We aim to provide a platform for start-ups, new companies and organisations who are innovating and solving real world problems in the energy transition. Our listeners are energy experts, industry evangelists who’re interested in companies that do pioneering work to accelerate the transition.

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Increased energy demand is inevitable. How do make sure the grid can cope?

We’ll likely need a grid twice the size it is today. And balancing supply and demand in the years ahead will require a smart approach.

Transmission capacity is one of the most important things to address as we accelerate the energy transition. Achieving net zero by 2050 will require an upgrade and expansion of the grid, in the UK and US. So how do we do it?

David Banmiller is joined by Ben Wilson, Chief Strategy and Regulation Officer at National Grid, to analyze the grid-enhancing technology and investment we need to see deployed. Together they discuss the path to a smarter, more advanced grid.

Ben highlights the need for policy support as well; streamlining permitting processes is crucial.

In this episode, find out how National Grid is planning and investing in new infrastructure, the approach to finding and investing in the latest tech, and the importance of dynamic line ratings in managing energy demand.

About National Grid

National Grid is an electricity, natural gas, and clean energy delivery company serving more than 20 million people through our networks in New York and Massachusetts. National Grid is focused on building a smarter, stronger, cleaner energy future — transforming our networks with more reliable and resilient energy solutions to meet state climate goals and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Catch up on the latest episodes of National Grid’s podcast, The Clean Energy Revolution, which explores the people, policies, and projects that are leading the transition to clean energy.

For more information, please visit nationalgrid.com

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How to build and optimize the grid of the future

Can innovative new lithium extraction methods prevent a supply chain crisis?

New lithium extraction methods are essential to meet the rising demand driven by EVs and grid storage. Traditional methods are time-consuming, geographically limited, and in some cases environmentally damaging. The concentration of lithium mines worldwide has implications for the supply chain; the fewer producers there are, the higher the likelihood of disruption. Lithium often travels tens of thousands of miles, so reducing these scope 3 emissions is critical. 

Xerion is a company who are trying to address this issue. John Busbee is Founder and CEO, and he chats to David about Xerion’s development of new lithium extraction techniques.

Xerion are also developing methods to create newer, more efficient batteries with the lithium they extract. Paul Braun is the Director of the Materials Research Laboratory, and Professor of Materials Science and Engineering at the University of Illinois. He also joins the show, and says there’s no escaping lithium as a key component for EVs and batteries, so the question is how to mine it efficiently and with minimal environmental impact. 

New techniques in extraction and battery production promise to reduce CAPex by two-thirds and emissions by 40%. How do they do it? Can these technologies make clean energy more accessible and affordable? David finds out. 

The Interchange will be at the annual Solar & Energy Storage Summit in San Francisco from the 12th of June. We’ll be recording some special shows from the event, with all the conversation and analysis on the solar sector in the US and beyond. Get your ticket at woodmac.com/events/solar-energy-storage-summit

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Demand for batteries is skyrocketing - we need new ways of extracting lithium

In the UK, the collaboration between banks and policymakers is crucial for accelerating the energy transition. The financial sector in the UK managed assets worth over 9 trillion UK pounds (11.3 trillion USD) as of 2020, with a considerable portion needing realignment towards sustainable investments to meet the 2050 net zero goal. The Climate Change Committee, an independent advisory board to the UK government, estimates 50 billion UK pounds, or US$60 billion per year, is needed to meet net zero goals.

Heather Buchanan is co-founder of Bankers For Net Zero, an initiative aiming to involve banks with governments to make better investment and policy decisions for the energy transition. One significant need for investment is the retrofitting of the housing stock; over half of the UK’s homes are old and inefficient. This a major challenge for banks. With host David Banmiller, Heather explores the financial implications of decarbonizing financed emissions from all banking products by 2050.

Plus, the importance of Energy Performance Certificates and measuring efficiency, the financial incentives to de-risk clean energy investments, and how B4NZ is working to engage banks, government and NGOs to drive us to net zero. Collaboration is crucial, but it’s a constant struggle.

For more information visit woodmac.com/podcasts. The Interchange is back at Wood Mackenzie’s Solar Energy and Storage Summit, in San Francisco on June 12. To secure your ticket visit woodmac.com/events/solar-energy-storage-summit.




In this episode:




00:00:08: Importance of collaboration between banks and policymakers for energy transition

00:00:43: About Bankers for Net Zero initiative

00:01:20: Discussion begins about financial community involvement in energy transition

00:01:35: Introduction and milestones of Bankers for Net Zero

00:04:19: Focus area for Bankers for Net Zero

00:06:06: Challenges faced in housing issue and retrofit issue

00:08:33: Introduction to National Retrofit Hub and role of energy performance certificate

00:10:40: Ideas to de-risk financial burden of energy efficiency

00:12:24: Coordinating energy efficiency on a larger scale

00:14:41: Importance of convincing constituents

00:15:22: Role of communities in the energy efficiency transition

00:16:20: Designing policy to support the energy efficiency efforts

00:18:01: Importance and issues of EPC in retrofitting

00:20:00: Balancing energy security and costs

00:23:35: The Role of Financial Institutions & SME's

00:25:50: Changes to GHG Protocols

00:27:04: Introduction to Project Perseus

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How banks and government are working together to achieve net zero in the UK

Estimates for the cost of decarbonising could be inaccurate. What does that mean for investment and policy-making? 

About $1.2 trillion is invested annually in climate technology and infrastructure worldwide, with significant portions allocated to China due to its accelerated decarbonization goals. However, experts argue that about $9 trillion could be needed annually to effectively counter climate change, indicating a substantial gap in current funding​. Debate continues over the economic feasibility of such costs, to the detriment of progress, but what if the cost was actually far less? RMI, the research and clean energy advocacy group, says that this may indeed be the case. These forecasts could be overinflated by trillions of dollars. If that’s true, what will it mean for investors, markets and policy? 

Host David Banmiller is joined by Dan Goldman, managing partner at Clean Energy Ventures, a VC that funds startups developing early stage breakthrough technologies. He says the there’s a significant investment shortfall – regardless of the total cost of decarbonising – currently to stabilise global temperatures. He discusses a downturn in venture capital investments in climate tech, particularly affecting early-stage companies and innovation in new technologies. Challenges remain in scaling up clean energy technologies due to a combination of high interest rates, inflationary pressures, and supply chain disruptions, which increase costs and complicate project implementations.

There's a specific shortfall in investment for infrastructure necessary for large-scale renewable energy implementations, like wind and solar, which are essential for a robust energy transition. David and Dan discuss how this could be addressed, and analyse the current economic environment, characterized by high costs and uncertain returns.  

Is it these barriers that are hindering significant capital flow into this sector, or the forecasted cost for decarbonising global energy systems? How can global financial strategies be adjusted to accelerate the necessary investments in clean energy and technology? Find out on the show.

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What’s the energy transition going to cost?

SMRs: a new horizon in Nuclear Power.

This week on The Interchange: Recharged, David is joined by Ted Nordhaus, Executive Director at the Breakthrough Institute, an environmental research centre in Berkley, California. They focus on finding technological solutions to environmental problems.

Achieving a net-zero emission grid by 2050, they claim, with a significant nuclear component would not only be feasible but also cost-effective compared to over-reliance on variable renewable energy sources. This approach requires substantial investment, estimated between US$150 to US$220 billion by 2035, escalating to over a trillion dollars by 2050. Together Ted and David discuss the likelihood that the private sector will drive this investment, provided that nuclear technologies are economically viable and regulatory uncertainties are addressed. They look at the Build Nuclear Now campaign, which aims to rally public support for nuclear energy and drive towards grassroots pro-nuclear advocacy. Is this a sign that public sentiment is changing?

The main challenges hindering the adoption of nuclear energy include regulatory hurdles, financial barriers and ongoing concerns surrounding nuclear safety. Ted explains that regulatory reform and public sector commitment could overcome these obstacles. The Nuclear Energy Innovation and Modernization Act are examples of a policy aimed at modernising the regulatory environment, to facilitate the licensing of advanced nuclear reactors.

So, are SMRs the solution to everything nuclear? They’re designed to produce between 50 to 300 MW of electricity per module, which is about one-third of the generation capacity of traditional nuclear power reactors. NuScale's design (listen back to our episode from April last year for more on this) for instance, is for a 77 MW module, with plans to deploy modules in groups that can generate up to 924 MW. The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has been actively supporting SMR development, investing over US$600 million in the past decade to assist in the design, licensing and siting of new SMR technologies in the U.S. The technology seems to be there, as does the baseline investment.

What’s next for the nuclear industry? Listen to find out.

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A ‘Just Transition’ for Fossil Fuel Workers

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