For more than 15 years, the RCP8.5 climate scenario has shaped headlines, policy decisions, financial stress tests and public understanding of climate risk. Now, the scientific community has declared it implausible. So what comes next?

This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich welcomes Professor Roger Pielke Jr. back to explore why RCP 8.5 became the dominant "business as usual" climate scenario, and what its demise means for climate research, policymaking and public debate.

They discuss the origins of the scenario, how assumptions about coal consumption drove projections beyond plausible futures and ask whether fear-based climate communication has ultimately helped or hindered public support for climate action. They tackle tipping points, extreme weather, climate policy, scientific self-correction, and the crucial question of how societies should respond to climate risk in a world that is still warming.

Until recently, Roger was a tenured professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder. He is now senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and publishes an influential Substack called The Honest Broker. He last made an appearance on Cleaning Up in June 2022. If you want to know the background to the RCP8.5 controversy you should listen to that episode, linked below.

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

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As electricity demand rises and renewable generation continues to expand, the same question keeps arising: how do we keep power systems reliable, affordable and resilient?

This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Håkan Agnevall, CEO of Wärtsilä, to discuss the changing role of flexible generation in modern electricity systems, the growing importance of grid stability, and why balancing technologies will be critical as renewables become an ever-larger share of the global energy mix.

They explore how rapidly growing electricity demand, including from data centres, is reshaping investment decisions, why flexible gas generation may play an important transitional role, and how batteries, renewables and thermal assets can work together to build a more resilient power system.

The conversation also examines the future of shipping decarbonisation following delays to the International Maritime Organisation’s proposed global carbon-pricing mechanism, the importance of fuel flexibility for vessel owners, and how digital technologies and AI are improving efficiency across industry.

Håkan and Michael cover a wide variety of topics, including:

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

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In this special episode of Cleaning Up from San Francisco Climate Week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington unpack the geopolitical shocks reshaping the global energy transition.

From escalating tensions in the Gulf and their impact on oil and LNG markets, to China’s accelerating electrification revolution, the conversation explores how energy security, industrial strategy and climate ambition are colliding in real time.

Bryony and Michael debate whether the West can realistically compete with China’s manufacturing dominance, why electrification is becoming the defining energy strategy across Europe and Asia, and whether hydrogen has any meaningful role left to play. They also examine California’s energy paradox, the future of AI-driven electricity demand, and whether nuclear power can help meet the coming compute boom.

Along the way, they tackle the politics of trade, the economics of resilience, the rise of clean tech nationalism, and the uncomfortable societal questions posed by artificial intelligence and automation.

This episode covers:

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

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The energy system is not about supply and exports and generation and distribution. It's about how we use energy in our daily lives and workplaces.

The so-called energy trilemma, affordability versus reliability versus environmental performance looks very theoretical in the boardrooms of an NGO or a consulting company. But it's not theoretical at all for someone struggling to run their life, do their job and pay their bills. What we need is a system focused on usage, not on supply.

Joining Michael on Cleaning Up this week is Harish Hande, a Bangalore-based social entrepreneur, co-founder and CEO of the Selco Foundation, which focuses on decentralized solar energy solutions for underserved communities.

A graduate of IIT Kharagpur with a master’s and PhD in energy engineering from the University of Massachusetts, Harish has over three decades of grassroots experience using sustainable energy to drive poverty reduction in rural India. In 2011, he received the Ramon Magsaysay Award for his efforts to make solar power accessible and affordable for the poor through innovative, livelihood‑linked energy services.

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

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Every single scenario for the future that looks at a cleaner energy system has electrification growing to 60, 70, 80% or more, and yet we don't make rapid progress. Why?

One of the reasons we don't make progress lies in narratives and culture wars. We hear about heat pumps that don't work, we hear about electric vehicles that don't work, we hear that electrification can't work for high temperature heat and so on, and then we hear a narrative that there is a false solution that will work much better: hydrogen.  So how do we electrify things faster? By focussing on what we can do right now, commercially at scale, and removing the barriers that slow those sectors down. 

Presenting the Electrification Staircase, a tool that breaks down the “Electrify Everything” argument into what can be achieved now, what will be in the near future, and what needs more support to come into being by the middle of the century. 

This week on Cleaning Up, Michael is joined by the authors of the Electrification Staircase to explore their thinking behind it, how it can be used, and what can be done to get electrification moving even faster. 

The authors are Adrian Hiel, Director of the Electrification Alliance, Silvia Madeddu, Solutions Architect at Schneider Electric, William Drake, analyst at Liebreich Associates and Thomas Butler, associate at the Regulatory Assistance Project, as well as Michael Liebreich. 

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

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This week Cleaning Up is back in Brussels, with a deep dive into European energy policy as the continent grapples with the reality of ambitious climate targets, very high energy prices and the vulnerabilities of first Russia's attack on Ukraine, and Israel and the US's recent attack on Iran.  Michael Liebreich sits down with a rising star of the European Parliament, Thomas Pellerin-Carlin, for a timely conversation at the intersection of energy, geopolitics, and climate strategy.

What begins as a discussion on EU energy policy quickly broadens into a much bigger conversation: a blueprint for Europe’s survival in a volatile world. Thomas argues that the war in Ukraine is not just about territory, it’s about Europe’s future. And one of the main battlefields? Energy. The key to peace, he says, lies in breaking Russia’s ability to turn oil and gas into power, through a global transition to clean energy.

From the inner workings of EU policymaking to the struggle between fossil fuel interests and the Green Deal, this episode dives into:

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

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What happens when global energy supply chains can no longer be trusted? Has the U.S. given up its edge in the clean energy race to China? And can politics keep up with the speed of the energy transition and the rise of AI?

This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with former U.S. Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm for a wide-ranging conversation on the future of global energy, politics, and clean technology.

They explore how geopolitical tensions, from disruptions in the Strait of Hormuz to shifting alliances, are reshaping global energy markets and accelerating the move away from fossil fuels. Granholm offers an insider’s perspective on the impact of U.S. policy decisions under both Joe Biden and Donald Trump, including the rise, and partial dismantling, of the Inflation Reduction Act and what that means for US clean energy investment, manufacturing, and competitiveness.

The discussion dives into the growing divide between ‘petrostate; U.S. and ‘electrostate’ China, the global race for dominance in electric vehicles and battery storage (with companies like BYD leading the charge), and the unintended consequences of tariffs and industrial policy.

Looking ahead, Granholm reflects on lessons learned from her time in office, what a future Democratic administration might do differently, and the political and economic challenges shaping the road to the next presidential election 2028: inflation, energy affordability, and the disruptive impact of AI on jobs.

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

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The news agenda this year has been entirely dominated by energy related stories, whether it's the war in Europe being pursued by Russia — formerly Europe's most significant energy provider — the U.S. capturing the head of state of Venezuela — which has some of the biggest oil reserves in the world — or the ongoing attack by Israel and the U.S. on Iran and all its ramifications.

But there is also another story, which is the long term rift between the U.S. and the rest of the world about whether and how fast we should be addressing climate change.  

This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Dr Fatih Birol, executive director of the International Energy Agency, for his third appearance on the podcast. He discusses the International Energy Agency’s integral role in trying to steer the world through the current energy crisis, how he sees the global energy system change in response to the crisis, and how his organisation is facing up to criticism from the US over its net-zero scenarios.

Fatih and Michael discuss:

As Executive Director of the International Energy Agency, Fatih has positioned the Agency at the centre of global efforts to advance a secure, affordable, and sustainable energy system. Dr Birol joined the IEA in the mid-1990s and progressed from junior analyst to Chief Economist, where he oversaw the flagship World Energy Outlook. 

He has been included in the TIME100 list of the world’s most influential figures and recognised by Forbes as one of the world’s most influential figures in energy. He chairs the World Economic Forum’s Energy Advisory Board and is an honorary life member of Galatasaray Football Club.

This episode was recorded on March 19, 2026.

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

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How should a central bank respond to energy shocks? Will high oil and gas prices bolster the uptake of renewables? And what is the true cost of net zero 2050?

This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with Pierre Wunsch, Governor of the National Bank of Belgium and member of the European Central Bank’s governing council, for a candid, behind-the-scenes discussion about how central banks should and can respond to inflation, energy volatility, and climate transition.

From the recent surge in oil and gas prices to the lessons learned from post-COVID inflation, Wunsch explains why central banks may have “got it wrong” during the Russia-Ukraine energy shock, and how they’re rethinking their response to supply shocks.

Michael and Pierre dive into:

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

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What happens if we’re underestimating the speed and scale of climate risk? This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington sits down with Ricken Patel, Principal at Climate Hub & Founder of activist network Avaaz, to explore how to build successful climate movements, and the case for research into geoengineering.

Ricken argues that companies have been accidentally geoengineering since the turn of the Industrial Revolution, as a byproduct of their pollution, and says ‘it’s crazy’ that research into deliberate forms of geoengineering isn’t being allowed.

Ricken has a long history as a campaigner and activist working in the climate and democracy spaces. He founded Avaaz, an online activism platform, and led successful campaigns around the Paris Agreement and beyond.  He was voted "Ultimate Gamechanger in Politics" by the Huffington Post, listed among the world's top 100 thinkers by Foreign Policy, and named a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum.

Patel studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at Oxford, graduating first in his class, and holds a Master's from Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. He went on to live and work on conflict resolution and civilian protection in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Sudan, and Afghanistan for organizations including the International Crisis Group.

Together, Bryony and Ricken dive into:

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

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