Addressing the media after his successful leadership challenge last year, Malcolm Turnbull stressed his vision for an agile, forward-looking Australia. ‘We can’t be defensive,’ he said, promising a government that would ensure Australia can thrive, ‘as the world becomes more and more competitive and greater opportunities arise’.

But beyond the rhetoric – in practical foreign policy terms – what will it take to achieve a thriving, competitive 21st-century Australia? In this election year, which parties have the smartest foreign policy plans? And, in a more complex, competitive world, does Australia need to be bigger to be better?

Michael Fullilove is an author, historian and executive director of the Lowy Institute. In his recent Boyer lectures, he argued that Australia must be smarter, shrewder and larger to capitalise on the changing world order. In conversation with Sally Warhaft, he discusses why we need a bigger population and a bigger economy. Listen in for a discussion of foreign affairs, population and thinking big.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.