Dante the pilgrim has asked Virgil--at least with a look in the eyes--if he could speak to one of the avaricious penitents, lying face down on the ground.

On Virgil's okay, the pilgrim walks up to Pope Adrian IV . . . or at least so Dante the poet thinks. Sources vary. And interpretations, too.

Join me, Mark Scarbrough, as we work through the interpretive and historical knots we face on meeting our first pope since INFERNO.

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Here are the segments for this episode of WALKING WITH DANTE:

[01:19] My English translation of the passage: PURGATORIO, Canto XIX, lines 91 - 114. If you'd like to read along or continue the conversation with me in the comments to this episode, please find it on my website, markscarbrough.com.

[03:47] Two interpretive knots: what exactly you must ripen to return to God and why anyone would want to stop that ripening process.

[08:13] Dante, an architectural poet, who gives his reader three structuring questions for this conversation.

[09:31] Four possible interpretive answers to the line of Latin from the penitent.

[14:28] The identity of the speaker's family: the Fieschi from east of Genoa.

[17:00] The identity of the speaker himself: Ottobono de' Fieschi, aka Pope Adrian V (c.1215 - 1276 CE).

[20:12] Dante's possible historical mistake: Pope Adrian IV or Pope Adrian V?

[23:00] Punishment v. purification: a difficult balance in PURGATORIO.

[26:43] Rereading the passage: PURGATORIO, Canto XIX, lines 91 - 114.