Lee Saunders is the head of one of the country’s largest unions, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees.

He talks about why union membership has steadily gone down for decades, how an adverse ruling at the Supreme Court rejuvenated his union, and what it takes to lead a large organization effectively.

He also talks about the Democratic National Committee process to change the primary rules, and how the Democrats should not change the rules again to help Bernie Sanders avoid a contested convention if he has the most delegates but less than a majority.

The outro song is a tribute to Martin Luther King, Jr., who was assassinated in 1968 after marching with the Memphis sanitation workers, who were on strike and attempting to join AFSCME Local 1733.

Outro music: "They Killed Him" by Bob Dylan (words by Kris Kristofferson)

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