An Equine Conversation

Today’s episode is a really short & snappy one, dare I say, a mini-sode.

Despite being short, it’s an important one, where I’m sharing 2 valuable training tips that I’ve been talking about with my students for more than a decade: farts & unicorns. These are two training tips you can take away immediately and incorporate into your training.

A short episode, but one I hope you find really helpful.  

And now I best explain just what I mean by farts & unicorns. Listen to find out.

In this episode I discuss:

1:17 - episode introduction

1:55 - brain farts

2:14 - what are ‘brain farts’

2:53 - why talk to students and you about this

4:01 - what to do about it

5:36 - unicorn moments

6:02 - what are unicorn moments

7:00 - why should we beware of them

8:10 - what to do about it

9:53 - episode summary

10.16 - podcast wrap-up & what’s on next week

Our links mentioned this episode:  

• Sign-up to our email list
• Abbey's Run Equestrian website
• Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. You can find out more about podcast support on offer via: https://www.mbpod.com/

It was a few years back now when I first heard about Dr Michaela Hempen’s Masters Research on Crib-biting, which, for those uninitiated, is a stereotypic behaviour that horses can develop. I heard about the research and then had the good fortune to see some of the timeline film of the project thanks to Alexandra Kurland.

There is not much now, after so long in the horse world that really captures my attention strongly, but wow, Michaela’s research blew my mind – it still does. I was captivated watching the footage, absolutely glued to the screen to see it all in as much detail as I could take in.

I think the findings from Michaela’s work are absolutely game-changing in terms of how we view, understand and then manage crib-biting in horses. I am so moved by Michaela and the broader teams work in this space and the implications it has for the welfare of cribbing horses. I look forward to further research happening on crib-biting & other equine stereotypies.

Since I heard about this research, anyone mentions crib-biting and I vomit excitement about Michaela’s research all over them… so I was itching to have Michaela come and speak with me to share this with you, our An Equine Conversation listeners so I could point people to this conversation instead of trying to explain the research and findings myself.

There is so much to talk about & this is a long episode… but we still ran out of time & need to talk again.

Dr Michaela Hempen:

Dr Michaela Hempen has graduated in Veterinary Medicine with a PhD in Veterinary Public Health. She works at the European Food Safety Authority as a Scientific Officer in the area of biological hazards (bacteria, viruses, parasites) and animal welfare. 

She also has a Masters's degree in Equine Science. Her thesis was supervised by Dr Jesus Rosales Ruiz from North Texas University, that we’ll be discussing today. 

Michaela has been addicted to horses since early childhood. Her first horse Asfaloth is still with her and has since been joined by Graya and Blondie. Michaela’s training with horses has been most strongly influenced by: 

Horse trainer, author and podcaster Alexandra Kurland of The Clicker Centre,  

Anja Beran, head of the internationally renowned ‘Gut Rosenhof’ training centre in Germany who uses classical dressage as physiotherapy for horses, and

the Feldenkrais method which has been integral to the improvement of Michaela’s riding and interaction with horses. 

These 3 things have been to a lesser extent, all part of my journey too, so I resonate with Michaela’s journey.  

Michaela has been involved in organising, hosting and presenting at various clinics and workshops for and with Alexandra Kurland & also involving Dr Jesús Rosales-Ruiz, and Mary Hunter. In 2021 Michaela co-presented with Alexandra at Clicker Expo Live, and the year after, both Michaela and Alexandra hosted an online workshop that combined dressage and clicker training with Anja Beran as a special guest.

Also, in 2022, Michaela taught students of a German certification programme for horse-assisted interventions. 

Michaela offers personalised online coaching for horse owners, which is based on learning from Alexandra Kurland & Anja Beran. You can find more information on Michaela’s Clicker Training Pferde website, Facebook page, YouTube and Instagram – links we will share with you in the show notes together with her science-related profiles for those interested.

In this episode we discuss:

1:30 - episode introduction

3:20 - introducing Dr Michaela Hempen

6:39 - Michaela’s early horsie life

9:12 - enter ‘Asfaloth’

10:00 - starting with classical dressage & a turning point in Michaela’s journey leading to clicker training & Alexandra Kurland

11:57 - continuing with classical dressage & Anja Beran: discovering her work & just how beneficial it is for horses: ‘riding horses back to health’

12:49 - the connection between Alexandra & Anja’s training

13:28 - enter ‘Graya’

14:15 - enter ‘Blondie’

15:02 - Anja’s influence as part of my journey

16:43 - Alexandra & Feldenkrais also part of my journey

17:53 - What prompted Michaela’s Masters in Equine Science & research study in Crib-biting

20:17 - What is crib-biting

22:14 - What do we know about why crib-biting happens

27:03 - a key piece to understand about crib-biting

27:23 - what do we understand the physical effect to be on the horse & how do humans feel about it

31:15 - what made Michaela passionate about crib-biting & why research

32:54 - how do crib-biting ‘collars’ work

36:37 - a further management intervention humans take

38:28 - another impact that people dislike

39:21 - why a single-subject study design

47:13 - how did the research experiment begin: surveillance & data and what that revealed.

51:37 - the living situation of the study horse(s)

55:07 - narrowing in on Blondie - testing hypothesis of link to feeding & making an important discovery

58:35 - further testing to narrow down what is the main influence

1:02:04 - deciding on interventions & the main takeaway points from what’s been learnt already

1:03:27 - a constructional approach, how this differs from a Veterinary approach & what Blondie needs to learn

1:07:20 - changing the context & routine to create a training condition

1:09:14 - the context/environmental change

1:10:25 - being mindful of the human influence in the training condition & building the behaviour

1:14:03 - describing what it looked like

1:14:41 - teaching the focus on consumption & the importance of having experienced animal trainers involved in scientific experiments involving animals

1:19:32 - how the training progresses over time - shifting to the 2nd part of the study, the routine described & maintaining the behaviour with environmental changes

1:25:39 - the big spanner in the broder study works

1:29:16 - further discoveries when broadening the experiment due to a changed condition

1:30:38 - building a relationship beyond the cribbing project, the impact of Covid & prioritising welfare

1:34:29 - a drastic change of environment & the impact on the cribbing behaviour

1:40:45 - the desire for further research but the pressing need to write-up what’s been done already

1:44:05 - the challenge of bringing two sciences together

1:46:46 - Michaela’s top tips for those with a cribbing horse

1:48:41 - cribbing during training with positive reinforcement (R+)/clicker training

1:52:27 - podcast wrap-up & what’s on next week

Links from Michaela:

• Website: Clicker Training Pferde
• Facebook: Clicker Training Pferde
• Instagram: Clicker Training Pferde
• YouTube channel
• LinkedIn
• ResearchGate
• Dr Jesus Rosales Ruiz & Mary Hunter: Behavior Explorer
• ‘Tactics of Scientific Research Evaluating Experimental Data in Psychology’ - Murray Sidman

Our links mentioned this episode:  

• From Green to Growth: developing positive partnerships for the future
• Book a discovery call for From Green to Growth (available when new intake dates are announced)
• Sign-up to our email list
• Abbey's Run Equestrian website
• Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. You can find out more about podcast support on offer via: Blissery.FM or email [email protected]

Having young and or green horses is awesome. But also, it can be confusing and overwhelming. We hear conflicting information on young horses – that we shouldn’t start them under saddle too early because their bodies need to develop. But then we also hear that they need a job to do and we often see that in the busy, exploratory behaviour we see from them. For many people it’s a rock and a hard place and we too often end up with young horses started under saddle too soon because they need a job to do.

There are absolutely other things we can do with young horses to give their busy minds and bodies things to do that will be beneficial now and into the future.

-----------

I have been super interested in working with young horses since I was a teenager at riding school… so we’re talking for maybe the last 30 years. In this episode I chat about why I’m so passionate about working with young and/or green horses. So passionate that our first Abbey’s Run Equestrian program, From Green to Growth is targeted for that cohort of horses and their owners.

In this episode we discuss:

1:31 - episode introduction

2:32 - where my interest in working with young horses comes from & my journey

3:47 - the highs and lows of breeding

6:19 - how special working with youngsters is

5:56 - it can go wrong

7:58 - our current youngsters & where they’re at

10:50 - advocating for students starting with youngsters

11:27 - never assume with any new horse of any age or ‘experience’ level - treat all as blank slates

12:55 - there are lovely mature horses out there, there are always many shades of bay ;-)

13:47 - ‘From Green to Growth: developing positive partnerships for the future’ was a natural progression

14:29 - participant feedback

14:54 - next intake & all about the program

19:24 - podcast wrap-up & what’s on next episode

Our links mentioned this episode:  

• From Green to Growth: developing positive partnerships for the future
• Book a discovery call for From Green to Growth (available when new intake dates are announced)
• Sign-up to our email list
• Abbey's Run Equestrian website
• Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. You can find out more about podcast support on offer via: Blissery.FM or email [email protected]

I am ridiculously excited to have Hannah Branigan as our guest on An Equine Conversation this episode.

If you don’t know Hannah’s work, you should make a point of getting to know it. Hannah’s education programs and content in the animal training space with a focus on dogs is next level excellent. Her podcast, Drinking from the Toilet that I’ve mentioned a couple of times in the past on An Equine Conversation and have recommended to many people, is one of my favourites for insightful training information, looking at all the shades of grey in the training space and the best part is that it’s presented in a really authentic way. While Drinking from the Toilet has a dog focus, so much of the conversation directly relates to training horses & other species.

For a while now, I’ve wanted to do an episode on An Equine Conversation about the differences & similarities between training dogs and horses. I know the vast majority of horse people also have dogs. And I see regularly a really fascinating thing happen where people will train their dog with positive reinforcement, yet they don’t apply the same training approach with their horses. There seems to be a long-held belief in a large part of the horse-world that we can’t train horses with positive reinforcement, we can’t train them using food. That using food would be bribing them, will make them muggy, yet we’re often comfortable to train our dogs using food. FYI This isn’t the case – we can train horses using positive reinforcement and it’s super effective & people around the world are doing it with awesome success.

I wanted to unpack the differences but also the similarities between training dogs and horses. I’m a huge fan of Hannah’s and I know that Hannah is not only amazingly awesome in her work with dogs, she also has horses. I reckoned Hannah might be the perfect person to unpack this conversation with me.

I was beyond delighted when Hannah agreed to come and chat with us & I managed to restrain myself from fan-girling at her too much. We had a super interesting conversation where Hannah shared some of her lesser known story with horses.

It won’t surprise anyone who knows Hannah’s work to know that we got into some training weeds and a more in-depth but totally awesome conversation than maybe I had planned. ….  A conversation which I’m so excited to share with you. Enjoy!

PS. We did have some technical issues with this recording. Thanks to Hannah for bearing with as we worked through them at the time and thanks to Matthew Bliss for working as much magic as possible to improve the sound quality.

Hannah Branigan:

Hannah Branigan, the author of Awesome Obedience, is a self-proclaimed training nerd. With the belief that everyone (dogs and humans alike) learn best in an environment free of criticism, Hannah breaks down complex skills into bite-sized, accessible pieces, and develops practical techniques that leave her students with a sense of achievement and success.

She is on a mission to make training fun and enjoyable for dogs and their handlers, which means optimizing positive reinforcement techniques across species. She is fascinated by behavior and learning, and passionate about bringing innovative, science-based solutions to the dog/human learning space.

Hannah has a background in both human sports and biology. Now she applies that knowledge and experience to the world of animal training and canine competitive sports. She enjoys training and competing with her own dogs in a variety of sports. Her competition obedience DVDs, Obedience FUNdamentals and Beyond FUNdamentals, have received rave reviews from trainers all over the world, and her students have earned advanced titles and in multiple countries.

Hannah is the host of the popular dog training podcast, Drinking from the Toilet, which focuses on the (often inconvenient) intersection between positive reinforcement philosophy and reality. Her mentorship program, Zero to CD, gives trainers a complete, step-by-step blueprint for earning their first level obedience title with curated support along the way.

In this episode we discuss:

1:31 - episode introduction

4:32 - introducing Hannah Branigan

6:20 - Hannah’s background with horses

10:28 - where did the dogs come into the story

14:32 - shifting career trajectory

15:16 - the current animal family

15:45 - the weird thing that is dog-owners seeming to know how to train by osmosis

16:46 - the dog chicken and horse egg - which comes first

17:51 - how we categorise horses through a different lens to dogs

19:41 - the biggest difference between the two species

24:02 - other differences: the rhythm of movement horses need versus dogs

26:51 - re-setting a dog in training versus a horse & different work arounds

30:02 - different ethology in how dogs & horses consume food (and humans too) & implications for training

36:42 - impact of the environment on our animals & our training

44:06 - switching from training horses with more conventional, pressure/release methods to R+

53:13 - onto the similarities between training dogs & horses using R+: the left and the right-hand sides

54:50 - discomfort of humans around working with reinforcers, the importance of training reinforcement procedures & predictability & certainty, and impact of balance on how we feed

1:02:46 - things taught the same way

1:09:35 - horses occupying a unique niche in the human mind & the impact of equestrian art on what we perceive as beautiful

1:13:32 - dogs & horses as inhibited species - process of domestication impacts

1:16:13 - top training tips: reinforcement drives behaviour so train reinforcement behaviours first & foremost

1:17:43 - next top tip: don’t think too hard on the ‘mistakes’ - get to reinforceable moments ASAP

1:19:17 - the little things: example of impact of reinforcement delivery

1:22:00 - the basement behaviours even before the reinforcement delivery & the impact of early learning history

1:24:43 - what’s coming up at Abbey’s Run Equestrian

1:27:14 - podcast wrap-up & what’s on next episode

Links from Hannah:

• Hannah's online program, Zero to CD
• Drinking from the Toilet
• Hannah's book: Awesome Obedience
• And also: Awesome Obedience: The Field Guide

Our links mentioned this episode:  

• From Green to Growth: developing positive partnerships for the future
• Book a discovery call for From Green to Growth (available when new intake dates are announced)
• Sign-up to our email list
• Abbey's Run Equestrian website
• Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. You can find out more about podcast support on offer via: Blissery.FM or email [email protected]

This episode of An Equine Conversation is quite a different one:

In late 2015, Benn & I moved to the country, from the outer suburbs of Melbourne. Yep, we did eat a lot of peaches initially (we knew people with a prolifically producing tree), and have since planted 2 peach trees of our own LOL. For me, moving to the country had been a dream since I can remember (I can’t remember a time I didn’t want my own ‘farm’) and for Benn who grew up on a hobby-farm but then moved into town for study & work, returning to a more rural lifestyle was something he always intended to do. Here we are, almost 8 years on (sometimes it feels like 5 minutes, other times, forever) & while it’s an awful lot of work, for the most part, we absolutely love it.

Inspired by our friend and Podcast Producer Matthew Bliss & his wife Bernadine & their podcast ‘From My Home To Yours’, Benn (who had volunteered to come on a podcast episode) and I thought we’d take a moment to reflect on our experience of moving from one type of lifestyle to another. Something we haven’t really stopped to do like this since we moved almost 8 years ago now. It was an awesome opportunity to reflect on some of the challenges, some of the awesomeness & some of the differences we found in moving to the country, to live on our 40 acres. We thought you might enjoy listening in and sharing on our revisiting some of the most memorable changes.

Benn Sheffield:

Logistics and tech extraordinaire, things would grind to a stand-still at Abbey’s Run if it wasn’t for Benn and his breadth of skills. From fencing to fixing the tractor, tech support to website updates and video editing, Benn forms a vital part of the Abbey’s Run Team.

Benn grew up on a hobby farm in the Yarra Valley when the Valley was a quieter place than it is now - focused on sheep & cattle farming before becoming more trendy with the growth in the winery industry. Life on a hobby farm was in many ways idyllic: growing up with dogs around & regularly having orphan lambs or calves to raise and have around the place. Benn moved into town to study and while starting his career in the environmental field.

Benn was not horsie growing up & is one of those partners who is horsie by default now. He and Sarah found and moved to Abbey’s Run almost 8 years ago - getting Benn back out of town and into a country lifestyle, something he’d always felt he would do.

In this episode we discuss:

1:29 - episode introduction

3:42 - introducing Benn

4:18 - why move to the country

6:53 - what we were looking for & the process of finding our property

19:56 - some of the challenges we encountered when we first moved here

46:52 - some of the awesomeness we encountered when we first moved here

1:11:41 - differences we discovered in the local community culture

1:20:30 - differences in costs

1:25:05 - in summary

1:28:15 - podcast wrap-up & sneak-peek into what’s on next week

Our links mentioned this episode:  

• Reliable Recall Challenge (for horse & pony owners)
• From Green to Growth: developing positive partnerships for the future
• Book a discovery call for From Green to Growth (available when new intake dates are announced)
• Sign-up to our email list
• Abbey's Run Equestrian website
• Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. You can find out more about podcast support on offer via: Blissery.FM or email [email protected]

Hello lovely listener!
We are delighted to be back with Season 3 of An Equine Conversation, a podcast brought to you by Abbey’s Run Equestrian. I’m your host, Sarah Nickels.

Just like the previous Seasons, Season 3 includes 8 episodes (plus this trailer). Episodes will drop on a Wednesday morning, Melbourne/Sydney time. We’re dropping our first episode next Wednesday, October 4th.

Check out this trailer for a glimpse of what’s coming up this Season & to find out about the free challenge we have starting next week (October 5th) and our next intake of our young and/or green horse program, From Green to Growth: developing positive partnerships for the future.

Our links mentioned this trailer:  

Reliable Recall Challenge (for horse & pony owners)

From Green to Growth: developing positive partnerships for the future

Book a discovery call for From Green to Growth (available when new intake dates are announced)

Sign-up to our email list

Abbey's Run Equestrian website

Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. You can find out more about podcast support on offer via: Blissery.FM or email [email protected]

I’m delighted to welcome our good friend, Julia Inglis back to An Equine Conversation. We first met Julia in Series 1, Episode 8 ‘Julia’s story - a tale to learn from’. If you want to hear Julia’s story, you can jump back and listen to that episode.

Julia & I talk so much about training, so we thought we’d start to share some of these conversations with you.

In this episode, we start by catching up on how Julia’s horse Maddy, who has Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS) went over last Spring and Summer. Then, we get into the weeds of talking about the challenges of the English langauge, particularly the use of labels, in the horse world…. but because this is Julia and I, we quickly end up down various rabbit holes due to what we’d both been seeing in the months before we spoke, including talking about what you do when you remove labels, the challenge of addressing the actual problem when that impacts your plans and what the movie ‘Frozen’ has to do with horses and training.

Julia Inglis:

Julia grew up in the UK and was animal mad from a young age, catching her first pet when a rabbit wandered into her garden. She learned to ride at school but stopped for many years when she went to university in Glasgow before moving to London for further studies. Julia completed her PhD in neuropharmacology in 2004 and went on to establish a research career in the area of pain mechanisms in arthritis.

After completing her studies Julia started riding again at a local riding school, and around this time she met her now husband at a conference. He lived in Perth, Australia and in a bid to persuade her to move there started sending adverts for horse properties and horses. Within months Julia moved to Australia and they bought their first horse, which soon became 2 then 3, and is now a small farm full of animals.

Julia rode traditionally for close to a decade, bush riding and dressage but when her horse refused to move under saddle ended up learning about alternative ways to train and positive reinforcement. This has now become her passion and obsession as it combines science and training geekery with animals - her two great loves.

In this episode we discuss:

1:39 - episode introduction

3:08 - an update on Maddy over last Spring & Summer (Julia’s horse with EMS)

12:26 - how we use language, labels & why they're problematic but also useful

26:35 - what you do when you unravel the label & then have to do something about what’s going on

38:04 - back to labels - 'boring'

41:21 - so what even is a 'bombproof' horse or pony & what the kids film ‘Frozen’ has to do with ‘bombproof’ horses

53:11 - where to now - body language again & building a common language & labels as short-hand

59:08 - summary & the need for a new shared language / labels in the horse world

1:02:33 - the influence of history & present art on what we label 'beautiful' & see as desirable

1:06:06 - top tips & then some

1:13:14 - important end-of-season announcements

Link from Julia:

While not mentioned in the podcast, Julia has requested we share the link for the Western Australia (WA) Equine Clicker Trainer group so that those in WA who are interested can join and share.

Our links mentioned this episode:  

Sign-up to our email list

Abbey's Run Equestrian website

Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. You can find out more about podcast support on offer via: Blissery.FM or email [email protected]

*Please note: this episode does contain profanity*

I first encountered Canadian-based Erin Moore when a friend pointed me to a podcast episode Erin had done last year on running a successful dog training business and I immediately resonated with Erin’s work. I loved what Erin was all about & since that time have been working with Erin on my business, Abbey’s Run Equestrian.

Cut to earlier this year & Erin was on the ‘Drinking from the Toilet’ podcast, which is a fabulous podcast about all things dog training that I highly recommend. It’s one of my favourite podcasts to listen to, with much of the content translating very directly to horses. On that episode, Erin was talking about advocating for your dog and it really struck me that this is content horsie folk needed to hear too. I know it’s something I could personally always get better at and in the past I’ve supported quite a number of my students in some of their advocacy options for their horses.

We can often think about advocacy as being confrontational, but it doesn’t have to be that. Sure, it is sometimes, but there are many other non-confrontational ways we can advocate for our loved horses and other equines too.

Erin Moore:

Erin Moore was a dog trainer for 13 years, and, by her own admission, made every mistake a dog training business owner could make. After burning out and leaving the industry completely, Erin knew that if she wanted to come back to it, she would need to figure out a different way to do things. So Erin did just that. She hired a coach and learned all about the business end of things, and that changed her entire business and her life. Now Erin coaches trainers on how to set up their businesses so that they can actually have a life and not burn out like she did!

In this episode we discuss:

1:28 - profanity warning

1:53 - introduction to this episode topic & to Erin Moore

3:59 - Erin’s horsie past, career with dogs & what Erin does now

9:06 - what does advocating for our equine mean & advocating ‘quietly’

11:05 - a lived example from Abbey’s Run where advocacy in the moment was difficult (even with all my experience)

14:10 - the challenge in the moment, the impact of our history & what feeling shame does

15:55 - when it’s a ‘professional’, authority figure & gender dynamics & taking that all into account

19:17 - knowing how to research a trainer is not something most people know how to do

20:26 - the advocacy that is not working with someone that makes you feel bad & that doing things after the event is advocacy

22:34 - when an expert provides advice on something they’re not qualified or experienced to provide advice on, discerning what’s good information & what’s not - learning about that as advocacy

25:22 - avoiding a situation as advocacy - giving ourselves permission

29:48 - modelling & so normalising advocacy

32:06 - advocacy when it comes to competitions, particularly team events - which hard do you want

37:11 - an advocacy example from the past & being able to pivot

39:56 - training as advocacy & cooperative care in the horse world

43:57 - the wild that is that we see horses so differently to other species for cooperative care & where’s the horse world at with cooperative care - the impact of history

46:25 - keeping our practitioners safer, saving them time & keeping ourselves & our horses safer

47:11 - what even is cooperative care

50:01 - us doing our own therapy is part of advocating for our animals

51:07 - why should we advocate for our animals

52:37 - what you can do after this episode to better advocate for your equine

57:28 - building the skills to advocate our animals helps us advocate better for ourselves & focusing on little steps to build the big picture

1:00:32 - having other people support you in the advocacy where it’s difficult to have your own voice - planning with them ahead of time

1:06:29 - recognising the systemic issues that make it harder for certain groups of people to advocate

1:08:56 - advocating can be done many ways & we can develop our advocacy skills, thinking differently about advocacy opens up options

1:10:08 - quiet advocacy & making choices

1:11:30 - where to find more from Erin & a reminder that Erin is a business coach, not an equine instructor

1:14:28 - coming up next week

Link from Erin:

Free, thought-provoking resources on Erin’s website

Our links mentioned this episode:  

Sign-up to our email list

Abbey's Run Equestrian website

Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. You can find out more about podcast support on offer via: Blissery.FM or email [email protected]

We want your training with your horse to be fun & enjoyable for your both – in short, we want you to be really successful in your training.

When we think about training with our horses & being successful with our training, we often think about the time when we're actively training 1:1 with our horse... but there is a whole bunch of stuff that comes before the active training part that is inextricably connected to how successful any active training will be or not.

Some of the things that come before take some time to put in place & others can be done more rapidly. The very cool thing too, is that the more we get in place and the more practiced we get at setting ourselves and our horses up for success, the faster it becomes over time. So while initially, it might take some conscious, focused thought and actions – it will become easier over time.

Setting ourselves up for success is something we will be exploring in greater detail with you awesome humans who get involved in our virtual young & green horse program that launches on the 1st of August 2023… but setting ourselves & our horses up for success is so important & we wanted to touch on it here, through An Equine Conversation too.

There is so much we could talk about on how we set ourselves and our horses up for success but today we’re going to follow on from something we mentioned super briefly in Series 2, Episode 3 of An Equine Conversation with Dr Lisa Walter – that it takes a team.

In this episode we discuss:

1:29 - episode introduction

3:01 - recap on the importance of ruling out pain for training success

5:10 - the team: who’s on it, ever-evolving & differences in support

9:16 - a closer look at the training impact of saddle fitting

14:38 - a closer look at the training impact of dental stuffs

18:29 - episode wrap-up

21:42 - what’s coming up next episode

Links mentioned this episode:  

Sign-up to our email list

Abbey's Run Equestrian website

Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Horses and People - The 2020 Five Domains Model for Welfare Assessment

Equiculture - The 3 F’s. Why they are important to your horse

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. You can find out more about podcast support on offer via: Blissery.FM or email [email protected]

In early 2022, I started to become a more ardent feminist as I became increasingly exposed to staggering statistics and information around the gender inequality still facing women. This isn’t to say I was ignorant or not a feminist beforehand; it’s more that my focus has become even sharper the more I’ve been exposed to. I’m very grateful to the friends who introduced me to some excellent resources including: Annabel Crabb’s book ‘The Wife Drought’, ‘The Guilty Feminist’ podcast and book by Debra Frances-White, and the book ‘Rage Becomes her’ by Soraya Chemaly. This has coincided with my work with Erin Moore, a business coach who works with women, primarily dog trainers – and really addresses the mindset piece: unpacking the challenges women face in business and just where those challenges are coming from (which has been incredibly revealing as to why we women face some of the challenges we do in business, in the workforce and in life generally). It’s been an eye-opening time and I’m very thankful to have had this revelation about just how much I was accepting unquestioningly as a result of my own learning history & societal conditioning. I’ve no doubt my learning & understand has a long way to go still.

This exposure of mine has led to this podcast episode & this being something I believe we need to talk about & get the conversation happening around more widely.

Menstruation is something that almost all women experience. That is something like half the population of the world. Half. It is impactful but is something that has been quite taboo in many places & caused many women a great deal of anxiety, not to mention regular & debilitating pain in some cases.

Late last year I started to see various sporting codes starting to speak out around the impact of menstruation on women’s participation in sport with various pieces of research showing some very impactful results. One study in the UK showed that 42% of 14 – 16 year olds said their period stops them taking part in physical activity at school.

As a result, some groups around the world started to review their uniform or dress code for female players, where the historic uniform was white.

In November 2022, Wimbledon announced a historic change in their uniform rules after current and former players expressed the stress of having to wear all-white while having their period. Some female players had expressed they were using the contraceptive pill to change their menstruating cycle to make sure they didn’t have their period while playing at Wimbledon. The change now means women can wear coloured undershorts, with the Chief Executive of the All England Club expressing that the hope is that the new rule will help players focus purely on their performance by relieving a potential source of anxiety.

In December 2022, the Australian Football League, AFL, Womens division announced a historic uniform policy change with players no longer having to wear white shorts when playing in away games. With the decision, designed to reduce player anxiety around menstruation, coming after extensive consultation with clubs and players and research that found discomfort in uniforms to be a significant barrier for girls and women in pursuing sport at all levels.

In early 2023, women’s soccer teams in the UK and Ireland also started to move away from wearing white shorts for the same reasons as the AFL, with the England Women’s Football team new shorts even having leak protection built into them.

As a woman, the stress and anxiety that comes with having a period is not lost on me. For a very long time, women have had to suck it up & deal with it quietly. I’m no exception to that. I’ve been like these players & worried about leaking & if anyone is seeing it. I’ve been in the horse world for a long time and have had to contend with bathrooms at clubs with no sanitary disposal bins; had to jam sanitary products down my breeches because they don’t always have pockets & even if they did, being skin tight, it’s pretty evident when we have things in them; had to contend with no hot water at hand basins to wash with; worn jumpers tied around my waist just in case of leakage, and been concerned of anyone noticing. And that’s just the equine world. In my office job, I’ve actively worn dark coloured pants when menstruating, worn jumpers around my waist and even surreptitiously checked any chair I’ve sat on to make sure I didn’t leak onto it. I’m quite sure that you will have had your own experiences and ways of dealing with this yourself.

Half of the population have been having to contend with this type of thing for a really long time. Half. While the other, approximate half, have often been unaware that this is all going on for us (certainly this episode triggered some great discussions at home for us with Benn realising just how much stuff we women are contending with that he wasn’t acutely aware of).

While players in sporting activities have expressed anxiety over participation, and a concern around not being able to focus on being the best player they can be due to stress around their period – the way this translates to us working with horses is frankly terrifying, with the enormous risks that come with not being able to focus on the living, breathing, thinking animal you are beside or on top of.

So how do we empower those of us working with horses to be able to be present in the moment and focused on their horse instead of worrying if anyone is noticing if they have their period?

I was absolutely delighted when I saw in October 2022 that Pony Club Australia had partnered with researchers at the University of Newcastle and University of Western Australia to research the impact menstruation was having on Pony Club members and their participation. I wanted to know more about this research project and it’s outcomes, and moreover, I wanted to highlight this conversation, to raise it’s profile, to help normalise us talking about this, and so I invited Dr Catherine Ainsworth and Dr Kirrily Thompson to join us on An Equine Conversation. We also invited the Chief Instructor & Vice President of Yandina and District Pony Club in Queensland, Tarryn Jenkins, to give us the low-down on what’s happened at her club as a result of the research.  

I am so very excited and frankly proud, to bring you this episode. I hope it helps you both personally as individuals and to have conversations around the impact of menstruation on us women & things we can do to reduce related stress & improve participation, with your connections in the equine world and beyond.

Dr Catherine Ainsworth:

Dr Catherine Ainsworth has undergraduate and postgraduate degrees in Veterinary Science. Her postgraduate study was in equine reproduction which led to many years in equine stud practice. With an interest in a corporate career, Catherine worked in the veterinary pharmaceutical industry in marketing and technical support roles and then agribusiness, whilst completing a MBA part time at the Melbourne Business School (University of Melbourne). Catherine went on to be the director of the Victorian state veterinary laboratory for 10 years, managing animal health diagnostics and research from 1999 – 2010. She then led the development of the new agricultural science centre in Victoria and investment programs in animal and plant biosecurity and biotechnology for 5 years. Catherine is a Graduate of the Australian Institute of Company Directors and the AICD Mastering the Boardroom program. Catherine has been CEO of Pony Club Australia since 2016 and has led the organisation through major initiatives with a sharp focus on connecting with and delivering benefits to club members.

Catherine is also the:

• Deputy Chair of Harness Racing Victoria and Chair of the Integrity Committee,

• Deputy Chair of Royal Agricultural Society of Victoria,

• Director of Racing Analytical Services, and

• Member of the Victorian Animal Welfare Advisory Council.

Like quite a number of us, Catherine comes from a non-horsey family and joined Narrandera Pony Club in NSW only after she could convince her father she could look after her horse herself.

Dr Kirrilly Thompson

Dr Kirrilly Thompson is a cultural anthropologist who has been researching and writing about human-horse relations for two decades.

In 2018 she published a book called ‘(Un)stable relations: Horses, humans and social agency’ co-authored with Professor Lynda Birke. She and Linda argue for the need to consider horses as active agents in their relationships with humans.

In addition to her research on horse welfare, Kirrilly has explored risk perception and safety behaviours of equestrians in contexts ranging from bullfighting from horseback in Spain, through showjumping in the United Kingdom and eventing in Australia.

She is currently a One Health research fellow at the University of Newcastle working in the Hunter New England Local Health District in a position funded by NSW Health on health protection, with a particular focus on the prevention of zoonotic diseases – diseases that spread from horses to humans such as ringworm, psittacosis and Hendra virus.

Kirrilly worked for Pony Club Australia for two years as the National Participation and Development Manager. She started her own life with horses at Pegasus Pony Club in South Australia and competes in dressage with her horse Mouse. Kirrilly is passionate about making horse-riding more enjoyable for horses and humans alike.

In this episode we discuss:

1:27 - introduction to today’s episode topic

8:23 - who are Dr Catherine Ainsworth & Dr Kirrilly Thompson

11:27 - what is Pony Club Australia & who’s involved?

14:06 - where did the study come from? Recognising periods as a barrier to participation & starting to consider the study focus area - the social taboo & the process of getting the survey ready

18:38 - why white or other light coloured jodhurs - where the history of light coloured pants for riding has come from?

21:38 - how was the proposed study received by the CEO of PCA? the need for evidence to build a case for change & elevating the voice of those impacted

23:25 - why 10 - 17 year olds? Getting the survey out there & the 2 broad types of responses (the good & the not so good)

29:18 - the type of questions asked, the broad responses participants contributed & the start of the statistics from the study

32:10 - guidelines/stipulations on provision of facilities & uniform - the impact of the study timing on the introduction of new National Rules for uniforms & gear

33:06 - more on the participation & feedback - the older age group wanted to be heard

34:47 - what change has happened for PCA as a result of the survey - the shift in National, jodhpur uniform guidelines

36:02 - survey responses around darker colour jodhpurs, the need for rule change AND cultural change (and what those cultural changes could be for clubs)

37:40 - club responses when the survey results were released, the priorities of PCA that guide decision-making: safety & welfare, the potential for pink polka dot jodhpurs & other options

40:10 - the un-related positives for wearing darker colour jodhpurs - ease of cleaning, body image, etc & the stories of the labour people have gone to, to maintain light-colours jodhpurs

43:31 - possible implications for people not joining Pony Club because of period impacts, or those that come once and don’t come back & research raising more questions

44:47 - some riders have support, but not all have support around them when attending Pony Club & the implications for managing period impacts

45:50 - More of the survey statistics: hot running water, sanitary disposal bins, the layout of clubs & difficulty of going to the toilet discreetly

48:05 - the many & varied implications for coaches - toilet breaks, riders not using a forward seat or pulling horses off jumps

50:35 - the huge safety implications of distraction/anxiety & not riding well due to concerns & the survey highlighting unexpected ie, important points around coaches needing to allow students ample time to visit the toilet, and the limitations of qualifying events for Regional riders

53:45 - coaches needing to put themselves in the shoes of the diverse groups they teach & PCA’s evolution to better support the diverse participants

57:08 - further research to explore, participation for confidence - the gateway to a social circle & social life & PCA Awards to reward non-competitive achievements

1:02:00 - hearing from Yandina & District Pony Club & the changes implemented as a result of the research & findings

1:09:47 - the reach of the study, how change can seem difficult but we’ve seen it to be possible, how quickly things can change & the importance of modelling behaviour

1:12:58 - the community as moderators for this work

1:14:08 - the statistics on: the impact on participation in rallies & competitions, the level of worry when wearing light-coloured jodhpurs and what the take-up in wearing dark-coloured jodhpurs would be

1:16:49 - would we lose anything by not wearing light-coloured riding pants & other ways to express respect

1:21:40 - a huge thanks to those who participated in the survey & the other researchers involved

1:23:33 - what’s coming up next episode

Links from Catherine & Kirrilly:

Pony Club Australia - Media Release 19/10/22 - Pony Club Australia listens to young members about the impact of periods on participation

Pony Club Australia

Pony Club Australia Facebook page

Yandina & District Pony Club

Horses and People: ‘Dressed for the Ride: The history of rider wear’

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Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. You can find out more about podcast support on offer via: Blissery.FM or email [email protected]