An Equine Conversation

On the 8th of June 2008, my life changed forever with a split-second accident that saw me trampled by my then 2.5-year-old horse, Fernando, and air-lifted to Hospital for life-saving surgery.

This episode is the story of that accident, what happened, the damage that did and where that’s left me now.

Before I even introduce this episode, I want to give you a warning. This episode talks about my accident in some detail. There has been one person who on hearing the story, when I was still in Hospital, passed out as a result. If you are someone likely to do that, then please skip this episode or at least, do not listen while driving or doing something where you could get injured… I don’t want my accident resulting in other accidents… not the effect I’m hoping for! 

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In S4 E4 of An Equine Conversation, Why Virtual Learning’s Worth Exploring, I make mention of my being immune-compromised and why for me, that’s one of the reasons that virtual learning is so awesome as I’m so limited to what’s possible in-person due to the very real and serious threat Covid still holds for me. I mention this again in S4 E5 with Erin Moore too when we’re talking about giving micro & small business owners a metaphorical hug – I like a good hug personally but being immune compromised makes it a no-no.

So anyway, in this episode of An Equine Conversation I’m going to share with you my story of the horsey accident that left me immune-compromised. It’s a story I’ve told many times. I know some of you will have heard some or all of it before. For those newer to me and my work teaching and my approach, hearing about this part of my story will help inform you more about who I am, what I’m about and why I’m passionate about safety… and importantly, why my horse Fernando and I have a very unique, very special relationship and why he has been my best teacher. 

In this episode we discuss:

1:22 - episode warning

2:04 - episode introduction

3:29 - the 8th of June 2008

5:09 - the backstory of Fernando’s misadventures, to get you up to speed

9:18 - setting the scene & it all going pear-shaped

13:19 - paramedics ahoy!

16:17 - arriving at The Alfred (Hospital)

21:02 - time in Hospital isn’t fun but it was busy

28:21 - recovering at home & an unexpected Hospital re-visit scenario

38:43 - the upshot of my injuries now

48:02 - how I’ve changed my outlook (or not) as a result of the accident

53:57 - Fernando, the best teacher

57:38 - take-aways from my experience

1:01:33 - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Links mentioned this episode:  

• Sign-up to our email list
• Abbey's Run Equestrian website
• Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

I am so pleased to be welcoming our 2nd first time guest to An Equine Conversation for Season 5. We’ve had some super wild weather here in my part of the world this Spring that meant this guest and I had to reschedule recording this episode multiple times. Despite the severe storms, power-outages, trees down, no internet, we got there in the end and are bringing you an episode with our most wonderful Equine Veterinary Dentist, Dr Paul Owens from the Horse Vet Dentist.

I won’t lie, I used to think the horses mouth was a whole lot simpler than it is. For many years, my horses had an annual visit from an equine dental technician. I’d seen a couple of talks given by them & I thought I knew much of what there was to know. Gosh, how wrong I was! It was thanks to a number of wonderful horsie friends whose opinions I rate, who were working with Dr Paul Owens and singing his praises, that we too got Paul on board our horse-care team maybe 4-5 years ago now. And wow, have we learnt so much over that time. Paul’s knowledge is amazing, as is his preparedness to educate interested owners. Each time Paul’s here, which is every 6-months, there are things I learn and get to see with my own eyes in my horses mouths which is really impactful for my understanding.

We really love having Paul as part of our herd’s care team as we share the mission of improving welfare for equines through our work and both love learning more, with Paul bringing us information on the latest research into all things horses mouths. Not only that, but we get to hear some cool stories about the work he does with Zoo’s Victoria too. Which, for those of you who like me, train with positive reinforcement, mean that Paul is already really familiar with this training approach as he sees it in action in his work with the Zoo & is so awesome in supporting what I do with my herd, which can be to our amusement. In his visit here just a few weeks ago, Rufus is such a pro at loading on the crush, we’ve made it so positively reinforcing for him, that he took himself there before we were even ready for him.

In today’s episode, we’re going to peer inside the horse’s mouth with Paul and learn a bunch about how it works and equine oral health care.

Dr Paul Owens:

Paul graduated from the University of Liverpool in the UK in 2001 following a degree in Animal Science and PhD in Animal Nutrition. He worked in North Yorkshire in mixed practice where he developed his interest in equine dentistry attending several BEVA course in this field.

In 2007 Paul came to Australia working in Equine/Small Animal Practice in SE Melbourne before eventually setting up a dedicated veterinary dentistry practice in 2011 called HorseVetDentist.

The practice offers a wide range of equine dentistry services from routine dental assessments to referrals for advanced dental extraction techniques, periodontal treatments and restorative dentistry.

Paul is a tutor on the EVDS veterinary dentistry courses and teaches veterinary students at the U-Vet centre Werribee. He has been fortunate to assist with dentistry procedures at Zoos Victoria and Healesville Sanctuary.

Paull attained his MANCVS Memberships in Equine Dentistry in 2014 and continues to attend workshops in dentistry both overseas and in Australia.

In this episode we discuss: 

1:23 - introduction to this episode & to Dr Paul Owens

4:08 - Dr Paul Owens bio

5:20 - welcoming Paul

6:59 - Paul’s Vet Dentist origin story & ongoing education

13:24 - the importance of evidence-based practice

15:37 - how the horse’s mouth works

20:33 - are donkey and mule mouths the same?

21:24 - what a horses’s oral check/assessment involves (a lot!)

30:53 - teeth are living structures

33:14 - the carrot bite test & the periodontal ligament

35:22 - dental pain in humans and horses (with a shout-out to Dr Chris Pearce at the Equine Dental Clinic Ltd)

40:00 - size of the carrot for the carrot bite test

42:16 - 2 big common dental diseases of the front teeth: nerve exposure & EOTRH

46:03 - more on dental (and other) pain in horses & how easy it is to miss (shout-out to Dr Sue Dyson)

51:05 - one thorough oral examination is not enough - it’s a repeated process as our horses’ mouths are dynamic & change over time

54:23 - standards for thorough oral examination timelines

57:01 - horses’ baby teeth

1:03:02 - top tips for dental health

1:11:55 - on working with Zoo’s Victoria animals

1:17:09 - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Links from Paul:

The HorseVetDentist on Facebook

Equine Dental Clinic Ltd on Facebook

Our links mentioned this episode:  

Sign-up to our email list

Abbey's Run Equestrian website

Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

Please note: this episode does contain 'conversational profanity'

I am so grateful for the knowledge that business coach, Erin Moore has brought into my life & so I’m delighted that Erin is back with me on An Equine Conversation this episode, to share more of her wisdom with you.

In this episode, we’re taking a look at some of the gnarly problems that face micro & small businesses, especially those who work in caring industries (with a focus on the equine world). We consider some of the differences between big and small businesses, and how our consumer expectations differ between the two.

We discuss how you, we, as consumers, can support micro & small businesses so that they/we, can continue to provide awesome products and services to you, …. and not contribute to ‘tanking the market’. Annnnd there might be some great tips in there for micro & small business owners too.

There is so much in this episode that it’s hard to capture it all in a short, written intro, so you’ll just have to listen to hear all the wisdom within.

Erin Moore:

Erin Moore was a dog trainer for 13 years, and, by her own admission, made every mistake a dog training business owner could make. After burning out and leaving the industry completely, Erin knew that if she wanted to come back to it, she would need to figure out a different way to do things. So Erin did just that. She hired a coach and learned all about the business end of things, and that changed her entire business and her life. Now Erin coaches trainers on how to set up their businesses so that they can actually have a life and not burn out like she did! 

In this episode we discuss: 

1:24 - profanity warning

1:52 - introduction to this episode & giving the context (shout-out to Jemima from the now closed Sweet Iron Co & Shelby from Milestone Equestrian)

8:23 - welcome back Erin

9:24 - the caring industry, small versus big businesses

13:31 - defining ‘tanking the market’

15:38 - I’ve done it & the absence of business education

19:00 - being draw to a caring industry, our values & beliefs & how we can help more people

21:11 - free content - time & effort and small versus big business

24:41 - the impact on veterinarians

32:07 - the extra load of financial stress & empathising with the humans

35:33 - if we’re not financially secure, we can’t help anyone and regardless, we can’t help everyone

37:41 - when small businesses make more money, they can help more people

40:07 - the impact of not supporting small business

42:01 - a snapshot of the different hats worn in a business & the costs you don’t see

49:37 - the different aspects of running a micro or small business - besides the actual passion part

52:22 - the correlation between neurodivergence & small business

53:11 - where does the time go in business

54:40 - the importance of self-care for how we show up in business (or what you get as a consumer)

1:00:45 - what do we do as consumers - what’s your sphere of influence (shout-out to Samantha from The School of Visibility)

1:09:37 - more top tips on what you can do & a summary of what you can do

1:17:20 - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Links from Erin:

Free, thought-provoking resources on Erin’s website (and other ways to work with Erin too)

Find Erin on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/businessendoftheleash

Our links mentioned this episode:  

Sign-up to our email list

Abbey's Run Equestrian website

Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

In today’s episode I’m going to chat with you about the awesomeness of virtual learning in the horse world. This episode is inspired in part by Ivy sharing her experience in last week’s episode and just how integral Michelle’s remote support has been to Swagger and Ivy’s journey and progress. But it’s also inspired by my own experiences with the virtual learning landscape, and by conversations I’ve had with a few people who groan at the prospect…

And if, you’ve had to do eLearns for your job, then um, let me just say that these can be, uh, dry, and um, uninspiring. So please, please don’t rate your virtual learning experience based on those alone!

If you are groaning at me suggesting more screen time, I know so many people have screen-fatigue, particularly off the back of Covid and due to the way some jobs now operate, I’m not immune from this at all, but if you can stand to, bear with me while I talk through why virtual or remote learning is awesome and why it’s not actually always about the screen. Spoiler alert, you’re listening to me right now, learning, sans screen.

I want to nudge you up-front to say that you’re actually likely already engaging in enjoyable, helpful, virtual learning - most likely the free stuff if not paid. Like me, you’re a good chance to have watched things on YouTube, see things on social media, read blog posts, and I mean, you’re listening to this podcast. You’re doing it already!

Today, I’m talking more about the paid virtual learning opportunities that exist. I’m going to start with talking about my experience as a learner, then expand on what online learning can do for you. Then I’m going to switch and talk about my experience as an educator and coach and what it’s like from that perspective – which will also explore why the benefits for me and other coaches are benefits for you too.

In this episode we discuss:

1:24 - episode introduction

3:00 - you’re already doing it

4:01 - my experiences as a learner with remote/virtual learning

5:13 - the challenge of being so far away

7:28 - the variety of online learning delivery methods

8:47 - horses get to stay home

9:58 - loving virtual learning despite technology not being ‘my first language’

10:49 - making new friends

12:54 - it’s inclusive for me

14:22 - benefits of remote/virtual learning for you & some of the challenges with a conventional format

18:28 - it’s not always about the screen

22:06 - consuming on your time, in your location

23:44 - learning remotely is not new here in Australia

25:04 - learning the tech is like learning anything

26:18 - why virtual learning is great as an educator with a micro-business & why that makes it great for you too, starting with some of my history to give context

31:27 - the overheads, the real costs

33:15 - what virtual learning offers us

36:02 - in-person learning is also awesome

36:56 - ask super nicely

38:29 - after listening

40:14 - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Links mentioned this episode:  

• Sign-up to our email list
• Abbey's Run Equestrian website
• Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

Today we welcome our first new guest for this Season. Ivy Starnes caught my attention through her generous sharing of videos documenting her journey with a horse called Swagger, a young, now gelding who was previously living in the wild. I’ve been captivated by Ivy’s training with the support of her coach and friend Michelle, as they help this incredibly unique and quite spectacular horse learn about connecting with humans. He has forced Ivy to really refine her training, and it is super inspiring to watch.

Not only is the training lovely, and the problem-solving Ivy and Michelle work through, but also Ivy’s dedication to recording the journey and then paying forward the assistance she was given earlier in life, by sharing the footage so openly.

I’m so pleased that Ivy is joining me today so we (I mean, let’s be honest, I invite people onto An Equine Conversation so I get to hear from them too) get to hear more detail around Ivy’s experience with this seriously unique horse.

Ivy Starnes:

Ivy Starnes has been training horses since she was 16 years old.  She started with natural horsemanship methods and has slowly moved more and more towards positive reinforcement.  While she still uses pressure and release, Ivy is doing more and more with clicker training.  She spends most of her training and teaching working with gaited horses and riders, working to get a smooth and relaxed gait for the trail. 

In April of 2023, Ivy was given McSwagger to train for the Heart of Phoenix Equine Rescue.  Swagger was a feral gelding from eastern Kentucky and Ivy had no previous experience training wild horses.  Ivy had seen wild mustangs trained before and assumed she would be able to train Swagger just as easily.  He quickly proved her wrong and Ivy is on a journey of training Swagger using only positive reinforcement, documenting the moments and sharing them so others will realize that some horses really do need a lot of time to overcome their fear.  

In this episode we discuss: 

1:25 - episode introduction

3:50 - where in the world are Ivy & Swagger & the climate they live and train in

11:55 - talking hay

12:42 - whoops, sorry Tassie listeners! The rest of what I said was right but you are not 'an Island off Australia', you are 'an Island OF Australia'. My bad!

13:30 - Ivy's unique horsie origin story & gaited horses

26:50.954 - Swagger's story

32:13 - how Swagger came to be with Ivy & initially it seemed it would be easy...

36:57 - but it didn't start well

39:54 - getting out of the rut & getting some help 

42:13 - help that's remote

43:60 - starting to slowly solve Swagger's disengagement

48:44 - a break-through and the progress snowball starting to slowly roll

51:56 - the approach for Swagger's care & welfare needs, particularly hoof care

1:03:11 - developing Swagger's environmental curiosity

1:04:35 - the highlights reel from February 2024 onward

1:09: 43 - coaching support with Michelle

1:13:44 - what MAYBE next

1:15:14 - Ivy's biggest learnings & recommendations

1:21:15 - supporting Swagger's journey & finding Ivy

1:24:14 - further thoughts

1:26:47 - wrapping-up with Swagger & Ivy's gift to us & what's on next week

Links from Ivy:

Go Fund Me link: https://gofund.me/83d83a1f

Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/IvysHorses

Website: www.IvysHorses.com

Our links mentioned this episode:  

Sign-up to our email list

Abbey's Run Equestrian website

Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

Today, I want to speak about ‘the hard’ in horses. I recently shared a post on our Abbey’s Run Equestrian Facebook page about this & it resonated with a lot of people.

This topic is inspired by those who in the past few months have shared their hard with me, just how tough-a time they’ve had of it, and the thinking and reflection that those conversations have left me with.

I don’t think we share enough about the hard and so this episode aims to change that.

In this episode we discuss:

1:20 - episode introduction

2:54 - what do I mean by ‘the hard’

5:06 - some examples

6:20 - the unwell, the injuries & the impact

10:17 - resource limitations, access limitations & financial strain

19:50 - social media’s role

21:49 - human health impacts

23:47 - what do we do about it?

27:19 - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Links mentioned this episode:  

• Sign-up to our email list
• Abbey's Run Equestrian website
• Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

I’m delighted to be starting Season 5 of An Equine Conversation with a returning and very popular past guest, Dr Dorothy Heffernan.

In today’s episode, we catch-up, get an update on Rio, Dorothy’s New Forest pony with Equine Metabolic Syndrome (although, this was recorded back in August 2024, so there’s likely already another update due) and then we get onto today’s topic of how to set everyone up for the best chance of success when introducing a new horse to a herd.

If you’ve not encountered Dorothy before, let me suggest jumping back and listening to Season 3, Episode 8, our first episode with Dorothy to hear more about her horsie origin story.

Dorothy Heffernan:

Dorothy Heffernan, PhD was born and raised in Dublin in the Republic of Ireland, where she was a horse and pony mad child. She moved to Scotland to study psychology and took her love of all things equid with her.

After graduating with a PhD from the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow, she chose to specialize in equine behavior and has been working as an equine behavior consultant for 17 years, helping people solve behavior challenges with their horses, ponies, donkeys and mules. In 2021, she joined with three other force-free equid trainers to launch Positive Equine Training Scotland, offering support and training to people in Scotland who want to learn about new gentle and compassionate ways of working with their equid friends. Getting to meet and work with a variety of equids, big, small, long and short eared has been Dorothy’s dream all her life, and now she’s living that dream.

As well as teaching and helping with equid behaviour issues, Dorothy supervises research projects for the University of Edinburgh courses in Equine Science and Animal Behaviour & Welfare. She has her own three lovely equid friends who take up either far too much (or not nearly enough) of her time, all trained using force free positive reinforcement methods.

Photo of Dorothy thanks to El Dunlop Photograph, https://www.eldunlop.com/

In this episode we discuss:

1:23 - episode & guest introduction

3:15 - catching-up on what happened since last episode

6:17 - Rio - a brief re-cap on his history

9:40 - the past few months with Rio

19:10 - onto today’s topic - introducing a new horse to the herd

21:01 - where to start

28:01 - the challenges of social skills for those highly domesticated horses

31:43 - post-inhibitory rebound

32:57 - setting up for introduction success

41:24 - quarantine/isolation for the new horse?

46:30 - ‘it depends’ on your unique context

48:10 - where to get support

53:19 - our case study: introducing Affie & Wren to the herd

1:00:52 - wrapping up, further learning with Dorothy & I, and what’s on next week

Links from Dorothy:

• Find Dorothy via her Facebook profile
• Or at Dorothy’s website: Light Touch Equine

Our links mentioned this episode:  

• Sign-up to our email list
• Abbey's Run Equestrian website
• Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

Why hello there listener,

I'm Sarah Nickels, your host, and I am delighted let you know that Season 5 of An Equine Conversation starts next Wednesday. As always, Season 5 includes 8 episodes, released weekly on a Wednesday morning (Melbourne time).

Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode & please tell everyone about An Equine Conversation so that we can get more great information to more lovely people.

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production and consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

This is the FINAL EPISODE of our Special Edition Season of An Equine Conversation on ‘What Else Is There?’ besides riding.

Last but by no means least, I’m absolutely delighted to welcome our Australian guests for the season, Dee Horwood & Cortney McCartney, owners of the business Scent Horses Australia.

Cortney is, I think, only the 2nd person we’ve had on the podcast who I’ve actually met in person, and lives only 2 hours from me. Not only that but Cortney’s horse, the one used to proof the scent detecting concept is a half sibling to my horse Rufus, so technically, we’re like extended family yea?

Dee & Cortney are joining me to share their story of getting involved in Equine Scent Detection training fun – a journey that was inspired by a conversation Cortney had when visiting Canada back in I think it was 2011. We’re talking about the awesomeness that is scent detecting with equines. This was such a fun conversation and these humans have such a great story.

I’m so excited to help raise the profile of what’s possible here & what these two awesome humans are getting up to.

At the end of the episode, stay tune for a bunch of end of Season announcements.

Dee Horwood & Cortney McCartney - Scent Horses Australia:

Cortney McCartney and Dee Horwood first met in 2003 whilst they were going through police recruit training. Both did a stint in Alice Springs General Duties Policing before transferring to specialist units.

Dee went to the Dog Operations Unit where she completed a 3 month drug detection course in Canberra with Australian Border Force. She completed further dog patrol courses with both the Northern Territory and New Zealand Police forces and a Therapy dog course. She is the first and only female Police dog handler to serve in Northern Territory Police forces Dog Operations Unit. 

Cortney went to the Mounted Police Unit, where she worked on improving the quality of service and support the Unit could provide to general duties officers and other specialised units. She attended and trained with the Western Australian Mounted Police and rode with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Musical Ride. It was whilst Cortney was in Canada that she first heard of “sniffer horses”. 

Her curiosity got the better of her and she decided to see if she could train a horse to detect substances to help improve and enhance the Mounted Police’ capabilities. There was only one minor hiccup in her plan - she knew nothing about scent detection but knew that with the right guidance it could work.

It was just fortunate that Dee had transferred to Darwin and was located right next door to the Mounted Police Unit and thought the idea was awesome!

The pair worked together in their spare time training a 3 year old Morgan Horse named Red Bluff Andre who proved to be a keen participant and catapulted them down the path of sniffer horses which led to Scent Horses Australia about 11 years later.

What is ‘scent detecting’ with horses:

It is essentially capturing and using the horses ability to detect and follow scent particles in the air for our benefit. 

Horses have the ability to detect scents from ground level up to 2m high which rivals that of a dog. Whilst horses may never replace scenting dogs we can certainly use their keen sense of smell to our advantage.

But I’ll let Cortney & Dee share a whole lot more with you in the episode.

In this episode we discuss:

1:23 - episode introduction

3:20 - introducing Cortney, Dee and equine scent detection

7:47 - what is equine scent work

9.07 - how Dee & Cortney got into equine scent detection

12:47 - when did it all start for you

14:35 - how it went from the start of testing the concept with Andre

17:49 - Andre’s training prior to this

18:25 - learning how to learn

19:30 - how interested were the Police in what you had proved & had to offer

21:04 - Dee’s perspective

24:32 - dog versus horse olfactory system

26:09 - shifting from a police-use focus to setting up Scent Horses Australia

27:20 - the shift from proofing the concept to working with multiple horses

30:30 - the horses catch on quickly, the challenge is more for the handlers

31:43 - scope for more study & volunteer teams, and the initial purpose, evolving to a therapy-type process

36:15 - is there a common scent or food used to start with & how to decide what to use to start with

39:33 - breadth of detection & future potential

43:21 - for adults and children

44:17 - what’s coming

46:46 - where to find out more

47:46 - season 4 wrap-up & a whole bunch of announcements

Links from Dee & Cortney:

Scent Horses Australia on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100086468871058

Scent Horses Australia on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/scenthorsesaustralia?igsh=YWtuNzhhbGduOHlt&utm_source=qr

Our links mentioned this episode:  

Sign-up to our email list

Abbey's Run Equestrian website

Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

In this episode of our Special Edition Season of An Equine Conversation, focusing on ‘What Else Is There?’ besides riding, we welcome the incredibly experienced & knowledgeable, Peggy Hogan to chat with us on the topic of Cooperative Care.

Cooperative Care may be a new term for some of you. It’s something that is used or can, or we could perhaps say should be used widely in the animal world, including with our equines. But I’ll let Peggy tell you more on this shortly.

Some people may think of Cooperative care as boring, but I think it is anything but & find it amazing & totally fascinating. I know Peggy shares my feelings and has done a heap of learning about & exploring cooperative care with the equines in her world.

Cooperative care is something we could and really should all be training with our horses, to make daily care activities a breeze & emergency care activities less stressful. It also has the most wonderful flow-on effects to all our training and the relationship we have with our equines, so it is well worth investing our time into.

A few notes on this episode for you…

It was very remiss of me, in this conversation, not to invite Peggy to introduce herself more fully to you. I’ve no doubt many of you will already be familiar with Peggy’s work, but not everyone will. I can tell you that Peggy & I have already spoken about another podcast episode conversation we’d like to record and so I’ll make sure we capture Peggy’s story then.

Just a couple of things or people Peggy mentions this episode that it’s just worth defining for you:

Dr Susan Friedman has a business called Behavior Works, the US spelling of Behavior, and runs courses through that platform for those of us in the animal training sphere. I’ve participated twice in the Living and Learning with Animals course – which I know Peggy has attended many, many times.

Clicker Expo – this is an annual, now twice annual conference event run by Karen Pryor Academy based in the US. In late January, early February-ish is a virtual expo, which means those of us living far away can attend live & watch back recordings. There’s also an in-person Expo that happens too. I’ve attended the virtual Clicker Expo a couple of times now and can say it is full of so much inspiring, educational information and practical things to play with, with our animal friends.

There are more people mentioned and terms used like in every episode, that I missed catching & defining for you, but hopefully you get the gist enough and can start looking things up that peak you’re interest… and also, we have more to discuss in future episodes.

Join Peggy and I now, as we delve into the world of Cooperative Care… with us attempting great restraint on not getting too far into the training weeds … and they were some tempting weeds I tell you but we managed to mostly stay on track.

Peggy Hogan:

Through her business, The Best Whisper is a Click, Peggy Hogan has traveled internationally providing clicker training clinics, and more recently, online coaching and courses generously sharing knowledge of Clicker Training horses. She has been a speaker at Clicker Expo since 2013.  

Her background in training includes Natural Horsemanship and an in-depth study of the teachings of Peggy Cummings, founder of Connected Riding. 

In the late 90's there was little information on using positive reinforcement with horses, so after an introduction from Alexandra Kurland, Peggy learned from professional clicker trainers of many other species, world renowned trainers like Ken Ramirez, as well as diving into the science behind the training with Dr. Susan Friedman. 

Peggy has investigated ways to add more shaping, capturing, luring, and targeting to her clicker training for horses program. Horses offer complex behaviors freely if given the choice, behaviors that range from agility to freestyle to husbandry to medical procedures. Peggy is currently teaming up with Monty Gwynne from Equispeak to reach the online community for teaching this amazing technology.

In this episode we discuss:

1:24 - episode introduction & notes

5:39 - introducing & welcoming Peggy Hogan

8:50 - what is ‘cooperative care’?

12:32 - in what context is it used - what does it look like / what is it used for?

19:07 - how much easier so many activities become with cooperation

24:21 - cooperative care in Zoo’s versus in the equine world & the need to know how to train that’s built into ownership

27:27 - with most horse owners being female, needing to empower & take care of ourselves without the fight

28:32 - misused of the word ‘liberty’ and defining what that means in Peggy’s world

30:41 - how did Peggy get interested in cooperative care

32.43 - exploring what could develop when the animal had more control & being inspired by a YouTube video

33.57 - collaborating with Eva Bertilsson & Emelie Johnson Vegh & presenting at Clicker Expo on ‘Animals in Control’ & the beginning of the ‘start buttons’ label

35.16 - is cooperative care for all equines? & the difference between emergencies & our ‘bread & butter’ training

39:24 - a little training can go a long way

41:06 - where to begin

45:07 - moving from ‘start buttons’ to ‘continue buttons’, having a ‘stop button’ & taking a ‘no’ as data, not personally

51:35 - cognitive dissonance trips us all up in our journey’s sometimes: more about the concept of & label that is ‘respect’

55:08 - cooperative care is a label too - what does it really mean

55:52 - painting a picture for you

1:00:55 - when learning for cooperative care, it extends to everything - it’s a gold mine

1:06:03 - ‘discretionary effort’ & it can be scary initially, when an animal offers

1:08:15 - where to find out more

1:10:55 - recapping & the power of filming & reviewing your training

1:15:13 - learning it right the first time is way easier than having to fix problems created when learning with poor information - learn from experienced coaches/instructors/trainers

1:18:16 - episode wrap-up & what’s coming up at Abbey’s Run & next week

Links from Peggy:

Home: www.thebestwhisperisaclick.com

Courses: www.clickertraininghorses.com/store

FB: https://www.facebook.com/peggyhogan1?mibextid=ZbWKwL

FB business page: https://www.facebook.com/ClickerTrainingHorses?mibextid=ZbWKwL

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clickertraininghorses?igsh=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA==

YouTube: https://youtube.com/@PeggyHogan?feature=shared

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Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]