An Equine Conversation

This is an episode that’s been a long-time coming on An Equine Conversation. Hannah Weston was one of the very first people who, unknowingly, introduced me to the world of online learning about positive reinforcement training with horses back in 2013 through her business Connection Training. It was an absolute pleasure to finally get to meet Hannah and chat with her about her own horsie origin story and the path to developing Connection Training and more recently, moving her horsie life from England to France. As with every horsie origin story we hear on An Equine Conversation, this one too is full of relatable moments and the twists and turns that life takes to get us to where we are. 

LISTENED TO 2 OR MORE EPISODES OF SEASON 6? We would LOVE your feedback. Share your thoughts on S6 of An Equine Conversation here: https://forms.office.com/r/xPrbQcjHPS 

Hannah Weston:

Hannah has been teaching reward-based horse training for nearly 20 years, helping horses and their humans build trust-based relationships through positive reinforcement. She has worked with a wide range of equines - including wild, rescued, aggressive, shut-down, and highly sensitive horses - using science-backed, kind methods to create calm, co-operative partnerships. Hannah specialises in gentle, consent-based training that brings clarity, confidence, and joy to everyday handling, groundwork, and riding. She’s co-author of the bestselling book, Connection Training, and runs the CT Club, an online platform for learning her training methods.

Photo thanks to Pandora Maund

In this episode we discuss:

(1:32) - introducing today’s episode & guest

(3:13) - discovering Hannah & the online world of R+

(5:42) - where in the world & what horse-keeping is like there

(8:58) - Hannah’s horsie origin story, it began early

(10:57) - the first pony, Toblerone (Toby), a life-changing family addition

(14:10) - Toby’s background shows up: the problems

(15:54) - discovering ‘natural horsemanship’ (NH)

(17:09) - moving around & finding a lifetime friend

(19:07) - through the NH journey & looking beyond thanks to Hannah’s Mum

(22:27) - how positive reinforcement (R+) entered thanks to Toby who made it clear that he enjoyed it

(26:12) - additions to the herd: the 3 rescues & the challenges they brought

(33:23) - Murphy & how useful protected contact is

(35:31) - the inspiration behind creating the Reverse Round Pen (RRP) technique & Murphy’s transformation

(37:38) - the rehoming that never was

(39:54) - a Winter of getting Toby comfortable with being ridden: training, Tai Chi and rider work & classical dressage & equine TTouch

(44:45) - hands on in the equine industry: the feed business, the Equine TTouch business, learning with a trimmer & progressing to training

(48:02) - the beginning of Connection Training: the post-it note wall

(50:29) - the dedication with the body of work that is video content

(53:24) - inspiration, patience, conviction & physical development

(60:25) - the difference in the speed of training between horses & how people tend to show the good stuff

(1:05:47) - the importance of consistency

(1:07:02) - who’s in Hannah’s herd today: the addition of the donkey’s

(1:15:54) - relocating from Yorkshire (UK) to the south of France

(1:21:32) - the challenge of developing arenas on hills

(1:26:08) - top tips

(1:28:58) - what does Connection Training look like now & where can you find out more

(1:36:52) - episode & season wrap-up

Links from Hannah:

You can find her at www.connectiontraining.com.

The CT Book: https://www.amazon.com/Connection-Training-Heart-Science-Positive/dp/1916210104/

Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ConnectionTraining

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LISTENED TO 2 OR MORE EPISODES OF SEASON 6? We would LOVE your feedback. Share your thoughts on S6 of An Equine Conversation here: https://forms.office.com/r/xPrbQcjHPS 

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

Back in S6 E4, I shared the start of my horsie origin story. In this episode, I share more of the memorable moments that helped shape who I am as a horse person and coach today. These memories include: poking poo with a stick, horse’s birthday celebrations, attempting breeding, finding a career path and more.

In this episode we discuss:

(1:29) - introducing today’s episode

(2:12) - poking poo with a stick

(4:06) - the Horse’s Birthday celebrations & my rusty memory

(8:35) - my one and only attempt at breeding

(11:53) - enter Gorden & changing young ambitions

(13:58) - the natural horsemanship explorations

(16:23) - Kallista’s farewell - preparing myself for the future

(18:18) - what to ‘do’ with my life

(22:37) - finding a path (and what wasn’t the path)

(25:42) - Abbey & Tully

(28:54) - moving the horses

(29:42) - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Our links mentioned this episode:  

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Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

Abbey’s Run Equestrian on YouTube

Abbey’s Run Equestrian on LinkedIn

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

I’m delighted to welcome Dr Michaela Hempen back to An Equine Conversation. 

We first met Michaela back in Season 3, Episode 4, where we heard about her Masters research project in crib-biting with a palomino horse call Blondie. 

This episode, we’re getting to hear more about the journey that was becoming Blondie’s owner which took Blondie from a life in a small space and not being allowed to have much of a voice, to a horse living out 24/7, whose voice is heard, and we explore some of what happened during that transition. 

Dr Michaela Hempen:

Dr Michaela Hempen has graduated in Veterinary Medicine with a PhD in Veterinary Public Health. She works at the European Food Safety Authority as a Scientific Officer in the area of biological hazards (bacteria, viruses, parasites) and animal welfare. 

She also has a Masters's degree in Equine Science. Her thesis was supervised by Dr Jesus Rosales Ruiz from North Texas University, that we’ll be discussing today. 

Michaela has been addicted to horses since early childhood. Her first horse Asfaloth is still with her and has since been joined by Graya and Blondie. Michaela’s training with horses has been most strongly influenced by: 

• Horse trainer, author and podcaster Alexandra Kurland of The Clicker Centre,
• Anja Beran, head of the internationally renowned ‘Gut Rosenhof’ training centre in Germany who uses classical dressage as physiotherapy for horses, and
• the Feldenkrais method which has been integral to the improvement of Michaela’s riding and interaction with horses.

Michaela has been involved in organising, hosting and presenting at various clinics and workshops for and with Alexandra Kurland & also involving Dr Jesús Rosales-Ruiz, and Mary Hunter. In 2021 Michaela co-presented with Alexandra at Clicker Expo Live, and the year after, both Michaela and Alexandra hosted an online workshop that combined dressage and clicker training with Anja Beran as a special guest.

Also, in 2022, Michaela taught students of a German certification programme for horse-assisted interventions. 

Michaela offers personalised online coaching for horse owners, which is based on learning from Alexandra Kurland & Anja Beran. You can find more information on Michaela’s Clicker Training Pferde website, Facebook page, YouTube and Instagram – links we will share with you in the show notes together with her science-related profiles for those interested.

In this episode we discuss:

(1:29) - episode & guest introduction

(4:59) - welcome & where in the world: climate & landscape

(7:41) - the wildlife

(9:51) - heat & the horses lifestyle

(11:04) - hay & managing a herd with diverse needs

(14:29) - individualised feeding

(16:08) - automated systems gaining popularity in Germany

(21:36) - Blondie’s cribbing: an update

(24:59) - an update on the cribbing research write-up: bringing 2 different philosophies on behaviour together

(31:18) - we need both philosophies as equine caregivers: a holistic approach

(33:31) - we need to test assumptions

(37.38) - on the challenges in the competition world

(40:16) - training challenges & adventures with Blondie after her very different life before & no handling until owning her

(43:54) - the 1st surprise

(45:07) - the next challenge & how it was overcome

(48:53) - dealing with the peer pressure/social situation

(56:37) - the delay in moving Blondie

(58:55) - ‘no’ to saddling & a training plan to get to a ‘yes’

(1:11:11) - top tips for you

(1:17:22) - where can you find out more about learning with Michaela & Blondie’s journey

(1:23:51) - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Links from Michaela:

Website: Clicker Training Pferde

Facebook: Clicker Training Pferde

Instagram: Clicker Training Pferde

YouTube channel

LinkedIn

ResearchGate

Dr Jesus Rosales Ruiz & Mary Hunter: Behavior Explorer

‘Tactics of Scientific Research Evaluating Experimental Data in Psychology’ - Murray Sidman

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Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

To the uninitiated, suggesting that a table-top game can make us be better horse trainers may sound a bit bonkers. But to those of us in the know, and those of us who have played this and similar games, we have experienced just what a positive difference they can make to our training in what is a low-risk environment – there’s no chance of us stuffing up our horses.

I’m so pleased to have Mary Hunter from Behavior Explorer join me today to explain a little about how this works and why playing a game, away from our horses can do so much for us.

Plus, we get to hear Mary’s horsie origin story too, where, much like Lucy in S6 E3, Mary had a particular, special horse who really changed the trajectory of her life.

Mary Hunter:

Mary Hunter earned an undergraduate degree in biology from the University of Chicago and a master’s degree in behavior analysis from the University of North Texas. Mary’s business, Behavior Explorer (BehaviorExplorer.com), offers educational courses and programs for individuals interested in the science of behavior. In addition, she teaches as an adjunct instructor in the behavior analysis department at the University of North Texas. In 2019, Mary and Dr. Jesús Rosales-Ruiz published their first book, PORTL: The Portable Operant Research and Teaching Lab.

Mary’s research interests include studying the process of shaping and finding better ways to teach people to train animals. Her master’s thesis, which examined the effects of a single reinforcer during shaping, was published in 2019 in the Journal of the Experimental Analysis of Behavior. She is a full member of the Association for Behavior Analysis International and has presented her research at the organization’s annual convention.

In her free time, Mary has lots of fun training her young filly, Chewie. She also blogs about her horse training adventures on her personal blog, StaleCheerios.com.

In this episode we discuss:

(1:30) - introducing to today’s episode & guest

(4:07) - where in the world

(8:57) - horses: where it all began

(10:41) - enter Casey Jane (CJ)

(14:02) - needing to figure out a different way & a transformation

(16:24) - going back to Graduate School to learn more

(16:50) - how a single, challenging horse can change the trajectory of life

(18:35) - the direction of study leading to the field of Behaviour Analysis

(22:43) - getting to learn hands-on with rescue horses

(24:29) - consulting and enter Apollo

(26:39) - taking up Horse Agility

(31:24) - analysing our own behaviour & why we make certain decisions & our own motivations

(37:55) - farewell Apollo & welcome Chewie

(43:37) - teaching humans in various places

(47:07) - PORTL: how a table-top game makes us better horse trainers

(51:14) - the difficulty of practicing these skills with our animals

(53:41) - practicing non-verbally, getting creative with the environment & breaking things down into bite-size pieces

(1:01:12) - practicing being able to adjust what we’re doing based on what our horse is doing

(1:07:06) - the role of previous learning

(1:14:14) - helping develop empathy for ourselves & our learners

(1:18:05) - reducing frustration for safety

(1:21:38) - honing our timing

(1:24:27) - opportunities to play with us & where to get PORTL

(1:26:54) - tips for you

(1:34:10) - where to find out and learn more

(1:36:07) - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Links from Mary:

Behavior Explorer: BehaviorExplorer.com

Personal blog: StaleCheerios.com

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Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

Throughout An Equine Conversation, we capture many of our guests horsie origin stories… but of course, being the interviewer, I’m the one asking the questions. In this episode, I’m going to share with you the early years of my own horsie origin story & some of the strong memories I have along the way.

If you like a story, this episode is for you.

In this episode we discuss:

(1:28) - introducing today’s episode

(2:01) - where it all began & hypothesis on why it all began

(6:16) - when & where the learning started

(7:08) - riding school #1 - Sherbrook

(9:36) - riding school #2 - the adventures at MBRS

(22:17) - enter Abbey, who our business & property is named for

(26:32) - the start of my coaching & instructing career

(29:42) - horse-themed books

(30:58) - the special experiences at MBRS

(35:19) - colleagues, students & teaching

(37:44) - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Our links mentioned this episode:  

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Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

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Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

I so much enjoyed recording this conversation with Lucy Chester from Lucy Chester Horsemanship in England. I’ve followed Lucy’s work for a while and admired her care of her horse Tao, and the work she has been doing to raise the profile of more ethical training approaches. I wanted to hear Lucy’s horsie origin story and to hear about Tao’s story too, as I knew it had not been and still isn’t all smooth sailing. Lucy's story is, I think, very inspiring.

It was amazing to finally connect with Lucy and to realise just how much of the learning journey that we had both experienced, despite being on opposite sides of the world.

Lucy Chester:

Lucy is a fully insured clicker-trainer based in the South East of England. She won ‘Behavioural Trainer of the Year’ in 2023 and does clinics and demos around the UK as well as abroad. She completed a LANTRA certified horse behaviour course and continues to study alongside teaching full-time. Lucy enjoys helping owners to understand and help their horses through the application of behavioural science and to strengthen their relationships by using positive reinforcement. 

Lucy’s photograph by Ellie Osborne Photography

In this episode we discuss:

(1:29) - introducing today’s episode & guest

(3:25) - where in the world

(6:35) - Lucy’s horsie origin story - the slippery slope of that 1st pony ride

(7:55) - the start of the pony shares, liberty work & trick training

(9:47) - welcome Tao, illness & making life choices

(11:57) - working in film

(16:08) - priorities: the challenge of balancing work & wanting to be a hands-on owner

(18:57) - Tao, changing the course of life

(20:31) - finding Tao

(25:20) - Tao’s arrival & the early days: the dream becomes a nightmare

(30:42) - relating to Tao’s story with Fernando & the life-changing they incite

(34:38) - it was never his fault - getting the Vet involved

(37:56) - the impact of the environment on behaviour

(39:12) - the physiological things

(40:43) - a multi-faceted approach & needing to advocate

(49:38) - Tao’s equine physical support & working as part of an equine care team

(52:19) - it’s hard to believe the history seeing Tao today & the glorification of the extreme behaviour online

(55:32) - looking for the root causes: resolving physical & management issues can stop unwanted behaviour

(1:00:00) - context matters & the importance of being able to ‘horse’

(1:03.56) - finding positive reinforcement & the importance of having a horse free to say ‘no’

(1:09.19) - the conflict

(1:12.01) - let’s talk about ‘liberty’

(1:17.44) - what we see as ‘liberty’ isn’t necessarily ‘liberty’ & the need to sense-check what we’re looking at & assessing the horse’s emotion & comfort

(1:22:03) - the impact of equestrian art & it’s subliminal messaging

(1:25:07) - highlights from the last year of educating humans

(1:30:41) - who inspires Lucy

(1:33:06) - Lucy’s top tips for you

(1:39:53) - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Links from Lucy:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lucychesterhorsemanship/

Instagram: @haflingeratliberty / @lucychesterhorsemanship 

Our links mentioned this episode:  

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Abbey’s Run Equestrian on LinkedIn

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

In today’s episode, I’m going to chat about my training approach. Why it’s not just about positive reinforcement training.

Late last year, I was asked some great questions about my training approach that really got me thinking. And as this has become clearer to me, well, nothing’s changed, it’s more I’ve found the words to explain it, I want to share those words with you.

I should say, in a later episode this Season, I’m going to speak about my horsie origin story, so we’re not going into that detail here. This is about where I’m at in my story just now.

So, do I train with positive reinforcement, abbreviated as a capital R followed immediately with a plus sign? My answer to that is: yes, BUT.

And there are really 3 ‘buts’ here that I’ll talk through this episode.

Image thanks to Rachel Flynn Equine Photography

In this episode we discuss:

(1:30) - introducing today’s episode

(2:54) - the first ‘but’

(8:57) - the second ‘but’

(11:46) - the third ‘but’

(26:11) - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Our links mentioned this episode:  

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Abbey's Run Equestrian on Facebook

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Abbey’s Run Equestrian on LinkedIn

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

We are so excited to be back with Season 6 of An Equine Conversation. This episode, to start off Season 6, is a little different. I’m straying, on purpose, from the particularly equine-focused discussion, to instead share a conversation with you on something that is really important to us here at Abbey’s Run Equestrian. I’ve invited my beautiful friend, Terori Hareko-Avaivilla along for a conversation about Acknowledging Country, which is what you hear me do at the very start of every episode.

We’re also going to yarn about Terori’s passion for wellness and the space she is holding for women to heal and be well. Annnd we end up down a few other important rabbit holes as well.

I met Terori through my past day-job, when I attended her Working in Two Worlds cultural awareness training after a colleague recommended the training to me. I then went on to champion this training and something like another 80 past colleagues have since attended, and, the gorgeous Terori and I have become friends. I love Terori’s training so much, it’s incredibly powerful, as is her passion for for wellness – something many of us could do with a hefty dose of.

I have been lucky enough to work for a couple of years in my past day-job, as an ally in the First Peoples Self-determination space. This has been some of the most important and most profound work I’ve had the pleasure of contributing to. It’s some of the work I’m the most proud of. It’s an incredibly important space here, a surprisingly fast-moving space.

Part of my work was helping other non-First Peoples folks to increase their own First Peoples cultural awareness to create spaces and work together in ways that are culturally safe for our First People’s colleagues and friends. What I observed from everyone I supported in this space, was the absolute desire to do the right thing, but with some confusion and some worry over what the right thing is, which was leading people to inaction. I think this is true of many of us.

So, I wanted to create this episode to help you, lovely listener, along on your own unique journey of cultural awareness. While this episode is Australian, and somewhat Victorian focused, there are learnings in this for many of us in our different corners of the world. As I said earlier, this is something we feel really passionate about here at Abbey’s Run Equestrian. Acknowledging and honouring the First People’s of this Country. I mean, how amazing it is to live here, where the oldest, continuous living culture on earth exists. It’s mind-blowing really. We are very privileged to be custodians of the land we know as Abbey’s Run just now and Acknowledge the care shown to this Country by those who came before. So, while we want to keep going on our own cultural awareness and cultural safety journey, we want to help support you too, with, as usual, some quality information that we hope helps inspire you to learn more.

NAIDOC Week

In this podcast episode, we make mention of NAIDOC Week several times. 2025 marks the 50 years of honouring and elevating indigenous voices, culture and resilience. NAIDOC Week is a National week of celebration held across Australia in the first week of July each year. The week is to celebrate and recognise the history, culture and achievements of Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander peoples. It’s an opportunity for us all to learn. There are lots of events on around the Country, and usually relevant TV programming, particularly on ABC and SBS, and with book shops elevating titles written by First People’s authors. You can find out more about NAIDOC week by visiting naidoc.org.au – I’ll include a link in the show notes.

ANZAC Day

I want to note at the front end of this episode that we recorded this 2 days after ANZAC Day. ANZAC Day, on the 25th of April, is a national day of remembrance that commemorates those who have served Australia in times of peace and war. Unfortunately at the dawn service held in Melbourne, a small handful of individuals acted like jerks. They were overtly racist to First Peoples, disturbing the entire ceremony, disrespecting everyone. This behaviour is abhorrent. It is not okay that we behave like that towards others. Kindness costs nothing. Be kind.

Terori Hareko-Avaivilla:

Managing Director, Avaivilla Group. First Nation Cultural Educator, Wellness wisdom holder (Water and Koko ceremony), Artist and Storyteller.

Terori is a passionate cultural educator, artist, storyteller and wisdom holder of water and koko ceremony. She is the founder of Avaivilla Group, a First Nations business based in Narrm (Melbourne). Avaivilla Group provides the ‘Working in Two Worlds’ Cultural Education program, giving allies the cultural space to unpack and have a conversation about First Nations ways of knowing, doing and being. Avaivilla Group’s other arm of the business is Cultural Wellness, the ‘Ngarra-Djarra Gurri Bunmarra’ (meaning ‘Heal, Well Health’ in the Woi-wurrung language of the Wurundjeri Nation), is a wellness program focused on women’s healing journeys. It offers a cultural space for women of all cultures and beliefs to gather, to share cultural knowledge and ceremony. Nurturing First Nations understanding and practices of healing and wellness.

‘FLOAT’ is Avaivilla Groups destination wellness retreat for women 35 years and over. The focus of the wellness retreat is to nurture and ground women in traditional wellness practices, with Vanuatu as the background to offer a unique experience.

Much of the work Terori does focus on traditional water practices of healing, grounding and energy movement.

‘Healing is a personal journey for individuals, as a traditional facilitator of wellness and healing, I have the privilege to journey with women for some of their journey. And it is always so fulfilling when our paths cross, you feel the energy and you know that there is a story, a journey and the embracing of wholeness'.

Photo credit: Sally of Nicebola Photography in Port Vila Vanuatu

*FLOAT25 early bird registration is open now until end of July 2025. Women can find out more about our retreat via our website: www.avaivillagroup.com.au/wellnessevents

In this episode we discuss:

(1:26) - introducing today’s episode & guest

(7:36) - a note on ANZAC Day

(8:33) - welcome Terori & where in the world

(11:51) - coffee & rice cookers

(15:34) - connections to salt water

(17:15) - and fresh water too

(24:21) - cultural sharing & learning: general info & cultural protocols

(32:30) - Terori’s horsie connections

(35:34) - Acknowledging Country

(38:40) - why, when & how

(42:43) - authenticity & ‘lore’ versus ‘law’

(45:32) - Acknowledging whose Country you’re on & how to find out

(55:33) - increasing information available to us: conversations & curiosity

(1:01:36) - NAIDOC Week

(1:03:03) - approach cultural educators & appropriate organisations - not just anyone & get along to public events

(1:07:59) - The difference between an Acknowledgement of Country and a Welcome to Country

(1:10:52) - smoking ceremonies

(1:14:33) - proactive learning

(1:24:44) - tips for being a good ally

(1:28:35) - talking wellness

(1:41:58) - where to find out more

(1:44:05) - support First Nations businesses

(1:47:27) - we all need glasses to read the menu & connecting to maintain

(1:51:15) - a shorter wellness opportunity

(1:52:23) - the impact of racism & the importance of allies

(2:04:09) - episode wrap-up & what’s on next week

Link from Terori:

Main website: www.avaivillagroup.com.au

FLOAT wellness retreats: www.avaivillagroup.com.au/wellnessevents

Facebook: www.facebook.com/AvaivillaGroup/

Instagram: www.instagram.com/avaivilla_group/

NAIDOC Week website

Bunjilaka Aboriginal Cultural Centre at Melbourne Musuem

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Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]

Hello there lovely listener,

I'm Sarah Nickels, your host, and I am delighted let you know that Season 6 of An Equine Conversation starts next Wednesday. As always, Season 5 includes 8 episodes, released weekly on a Wednesday morning (Melbourne time, GMT+10).

Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode & please tell everyone about An Equine Conversation so that we can get more great information to more lovely people.

Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production and consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected].

I’m delighted to welcome Ellen Cochrane back to An Equine Conversation. We heard from Ellen in Season 4, talking all about equine agility and The International Horse Agility Club. This episode is something quiet different: We’re hearing about Ellen’s journey to and experiences in working with mules, both her own mule Inara, and her voluntary efforts in supporting humans working with mules in Morocco to improve welfare outcomes for animals and people. I get tingles even thinking about this episode & what Ellen has been involved with. I hope you find the episode as educational and inspiring as I have.

Ellen Cochrane:

Ellen Cochrane is from Worcestershire, England. She is a positive reinforcement trainer who works with a variety of equines and their humans through her business Gaia Horsemanship and as part of her work with the International Horse Agility Club - listen to Season 4, Episode . Ellen works mostly with horses in England but she has a huge passion for mules which started in 2014 when she started working to improve mule welfare in Morocco. Ellen works in the High Atlas Mountains of Morocco helping muleteers to improve the welfare of their working mules by improving knowledge and communication and using kinder equipment, plus Ellen is the UK ambassador for Moroccan-based equine rescue charity, Jarjeer Donkey and Mule refuge. Ellen has her own mule, Inara, who has gone from unhandled and fearful of humans to Horse Agility World Champion. 

In this episode we discuss: 

1:26 - Merry Christmas!

3:10 - introduction to today’s episode & guest

7:26 - Ellen’s horsie origin story

10:20 - how positive reinforcement came into Ellen’s world

12:20 - Ellen’s herd

18:09 - conditions & context

22:15 - what’s haylage?

25:04 - how Ellen got involved with mules - a request to go to Morocco

27:46 - the work done by the mules in the mountains of Morocco

30:18 - where the work with mules & humans began

32:33 - what even is a mule & mule breeding

36:41 - what happened after the first trip, working alongside muleteers

42:00 - how does the communication happen: language & gender roles

45:28 - engaging effectively with the male muleteers as an English woman

46:59 - the primary things Ellen helps muleteers with

52:54 - being sought out & the muleteers ‘paying it forward’, a story showing how amazing mules are

55:26 - mule social needs

56:28 - the amazing work of the Jarjeer Mule and Donkey Trust

1:00:36 - trips to Morocco now & contrasts

1:02:32 - getting a mule back at home

1:09:26 - going back to Morocco

1:12:42 - tips for working with mules

1:16:47 - finding out more & supporting

1:19:35 - huge thanks to Ellen for all her efforts

1:23:24 - wrapping up this episode & Season 5 of An Equine Conversation

Links from Ellen:

Gaia Horsemanship Website: www.gaiahorsemanship.co.uk

Gaia Horsemanship Facebook: www.facebook.com/gaiahorsemanship

It’s A Mule’s Life Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/itsamuleslife

Jarjeer Donkey and Mule refuge Website: https://www.jarjeer.org/

Jarjeer Donkey and Mule refuge Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jarjeermules

Our links mentioned this episode:  

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Thank you to Matthew Bliss for podcast production & consultation. If you'd like him to help with your podcast, get in touch by email at [email protected]