Ascend UX by Evan Sunwall, Ayan Bihi

December 01, 2021 What do you need to become a product designer?

Ep. 10 - What do you need to become a product designer?

[00:00:00] Jaivardhan: I think if it's a general interest about solving problems, it's a great place to be in because you will be solving problems. And a lot of times people question that how can somebody who just changes the shape of a button can change the world?" But you actually can do that.

[00:00:18] Evan: Howdy friends, this is the Ascend UX podcast. A show about the experience of user experience design. I'm Evan Sunwall.

[00:00:44] Ayan: And I'm Ayan Bihi.

[00:00:45] Evan: You know, the funny thing about UX and the design domain is the number of job titles out there, right? Have you encountered anything like this in your journey, Ayan, about the confusing world of design job titles?

[00:00:58] Ayan: Oh, for sure. There are so many titles, and you just don't know if it's a facade, or are people actually doing different things, or are we all just doing the same thing, but different titles.

[00:01:08] Evan: It's rather confusing. You have UI/UX designers, you have UX/UI designers, product designers, usability consultants, human factors engineers, information architects, UX engineers — there a ton out there and it's really hard to parse what is the right job for you, what are the right responsibilities that match up to your strengths and your interests? So we're going to start digging into some of these job titles. We're going to start digging into what people are actually doing in this role.

[00:01:36] Evan: And our first one today is a product designer. This is a flexible job, it has a lot of responsibilities and it can vary a lot across companies, but the responsibilities generally include facilitating or helping to define business objectives for new products and services or features — these folks typically have some domain knowledge or they understand a market or a customer fairly well. Perhaps not to the same level as a business analyst or a product manager, but pretty good. They all also focus on the user-centred design process. So that's everything from user research and interviewing users, prototyping, conceptualizing solutions, and testing them with those users and then iterating based on that feedback. And this is the part that typically encompasses the UX designer job.

[00:02:22] Evan: And then lastly, we have, the third part of the process, which is helping engineering put together and make these products a reality and that could be either delivering high-fidelity designs or maintaining style guides and reusable UI components that are commonly called design systems and so, they have a wide breadth of responsibility.

[00:02:42] Evan: In the industry, there is a common term called UX unicorns, which some people criticize or it's really contentious topic. And it really speaks to this mythological person who is business-savvy and user-centred and they're capable of designing in any fidelity. And they also can, code what they design. And if there was ever a job title that really embodies that idea, it is probably the product designer job.

[00:03:07] Ayan: So as we can't really travel today due to the current circumstances, Evan, we've traveled digitally to better understand not only this role, but also how people in different parts of the world are practicing it.

[00:03:18] Ayan: So for today's episode, we'll be taking you with us to Beirut, then to Barcelona, and lastly, we're going to New Delhi in India. There's going to be a lot of diversity in our discussion, not just geographically, but also in the roles, responsibilities and pathways of the product designer's job. So once again, we're traveling the world, pack your bags, hope you have your passport, and let's go.

[00:03:42] Evan: I'm excited! I got my tray table in the upright position. I buckled up. Let's do this!

[00:03:48] Ayan: Take off! So, Evan, our first destination is Beirut, Lebanon, where we'll be meeting Alaa.

[00:03:55] Alaa: I have a BFA in Graphic Design from the American University of Beirut class of 2009. I currently run a small design studio that's based in Beirut, in Lebanon. We try our best to focus on digital projects, mainly web design and animation, but we also take projects and branding and publication design.

[00:04:13] Ayan: Next we'll be making a stop in Barcelona where I'd like to introduce you to Marynes

[00:04:18] Marynes: I'm from Venezuela. But I've been living in Barcelona, Spain for 15 years. I call myself now a UX and circular economy consultant. The idea of circular design is to maximize the experience, the quality, the value of the product. So when we are designing, we need to think about everything — like, okay, where is this material coming from? How people are going to use this? What people are going to do with this product after the life cycle when this goes to the end?

[00:04:52] Ayan: And last stop, we're going to meet Jay who's based in New Delhi in India.

[00:04:57] Jaivardhan: I take a lot of different titles. The most commonly used title that I use is a New Media UI/UX Designer. I attach the word new media" because while I work a lot with conventional interfaces and experiences like websites and apps, I also work a lot with new media devices like augmented reality and virtual reality, mixed reality.

[00:05:20] Jaivardhan: I tried to expand my horizons and see where all I can take my knowledge of user experience and user interface and how interaction design can be integrated into these upcoming technologies.

[00:05:34] Evan: So these are all folks with product designer in their job title — at least in their past. And what's really fascinating is the diversity of their experiences. And none of them actually got a formal UX degree from a university.

[00:05:51] Ayan: Yeah, for sure. At least at the beginning, and then maybe perhaps complemented it later, which we'll go into after, but I think what's really interesting is that seeing these different job titles — especially when you're entering the career and you don't really understand what is expected of you — it can be very intimidating.

[00:06:07] Ayan: So to understand that people can have different ways of applying that job title that kind of can reflect their different experiences can be quite encouraging for somebody who's getting into the field.

[00:06:18] Evan: I think that makes a lot of sense too, because if this product designer job is this really hybrid role that reaches a lot of different areas in a company, it rewards, or it's really helpful to have that kind of broad experience to bring to the table and do the job successfully.

[00:06:35] Ayan: That's also kind of the catch of UX design is that we really have yet to formalize what we do and have this really definition, for example, as a chemist would, but that's also the beauty is that it allows so many other people to come in with different backgrounds and apply their skills and experiences into the field.

[00:06:54] Evan: There was another interesting aspect, to their stories is that they typically started in graphical or media arts too.

[00:07:00] Ayan: Yeah, exactly as we just discovered Marynes and Alla, they both studied graphic design. I believe Marynes went back to get a UX degree and her master's, but it's interesting, I thought is because graphic design is usually our first introduction into the realm of design, perhaps graphic and fashion. So it's normal for people to kind of go into that field, maybe with an inkling of interest. And maybe once they're learning, they're like actually, there's more that I'd like to learn about this field." So it just kind of having one moment that sparks that interest and going for it.

[00:07:30] Evan: That's a great point. If someone out there has a similar background and is anxious about it or feels kind of unqualified or out of their element, a lot of people have had that similar experience and have successfully done it. That's a great insight.

[00:07:43] Ayan: And I imagine graphic design, the methodologies are the same, right? We're kind of taking a problem and we're trying to communicate a solution. It's just different forms. Perhaps there's not too much a user-based approach and graphic design, as there is with us in UX. But you know, we're all trying to make the world a better place. Just different methods.

[00:08:01] Evan: Yeah. So you asked them a series of questions, right? In terms of delving into their background and their job duties.

[00:08:08] Ayan: I did. And we asked them all the same question, but naturally, the responses are going to be different. So the first question, Evan, is how did they discover product design and what do they need to get into the field?

[00:08:20] Alaa: My background is print-based. We learned the basics of design thinking or brainstorming. I've gained experience in interactive design or user experience or web design later, after I graduated. Actually, it started in my internship at the end of my third year in college.

[00:08:39] Alaa: In my first job, I was a junior designer in a small design studio. There I got the chance to work on different kinds of projects. One particular time, I have the project that the client chose my direction. And because we're a small team, my boss asked me if I can take on the full project, like designing the full brand and the website. And this is where my first experience in actually designing the website without people around me giving me directions or helping me. This is when I started to learn from observing, from researching, from doing hands-on projects.

[00:09:13] Marynes: I made my decision to study, I chose graphic design. I started working on that then I say, I prefer digital, not print." So I started to study for a master's degree and I did digital design and UX. In that place is when everything started because I like to solve problems, but not only graphic problems. So I was working on a studio, a smaller studio. I was doing a lot of things, project manager, everything.

[00:09:46] Marynes: When the customers, the clients were coming to the office, they were like, no, I need a website. I need this." And talking with them, you know, going deep into the problem underneath, it was okay, you don't need a website. You need business cards or you don't need a marketing campaign. And then I was like, okay. Maybe this is my thing. I prefer to know the problem in the root and not only, okay, let's do something beautiful. It's why we are doing this. What is the goal?

[00:10:17] Jaivardhan: My bachelor's back in India, Bangalore at Srishti Institute of Art Design and Technology I had already a limited vision of what design was when I entered it. For me, it was just graphic designing because I had seen people around me doing graphic designing. So my view on what is design was very limited, but once I started studying in my bachelor's I realized that this world of design is actually really big and it goes, as far as you want to stretch it.

[00:10:46] Jaivardhan: I started understanding what technology actually is and how closely engineering and design are invigorated in the day-to-day products that we use. And it was there where I started designing experiences for people that I started designing interactions with people.

[00:11:02] Evan: So there is this curiosity from all three of them about creative problem solving and taking a degree of autonomy, but also self-direction, and endeavouring to assume more responsibility on solving problems that were adjacent to what they were doing in their current job.

[00:11:21] Ayan: It also seems that there is an aspect of exploration. Taking one path and ending up at the destination of UX and who knows if that's the final destination, maybe that choice of going into UX will take them elsewhere. But it's interesting that there is kind of commonalities, even though they're in different countries with different stories that their path kind of unravelled in a similar form.

[00:11:42] Evan: Yeah, and they all started small. They started at startups or small studios. They didn't , make a break into a big company or a very mature design organization. They probably gave them a little bit of flexibility to even start growing in these different areas that they wouldn't have had otherwise.

[00:11:59] Ayan: And that's also what I felt too, from talking with them was that as a product designer, You're playing many roles. You could be one day during research. So you're sitting down with users and hearing their pain points, and the next day you're sitting down with the stakeholders and understanding what the business goals are to formalize that into low fi or high fi prototypes. So there are so many rules and I think this is interesting for somebody who's trying to find out where they want to place themselves. You know, maybe they say, actually, I don't want to wear all those hats. I'm really just focused on research and that's all I want to do.

[00:12:29] Evan: Yeah.

[00:12:30] Ayan: So I think it also attracts a certain type of person, somebody who likes that versatility and is interested in adapting.

[00:12:36] Evan: Yeah. That's something that often gets missed in people wanting to get jobs in high maturity, large organizations are often that hyper-specialization that starts to creep in, and it doesn't necessarily afford you that opportunity to explore and grow in different domains. Whether it be research or maybe UI design. And I think by having that kind of early formative experiences in these smaller places or startups allowed them to stretch and grow and actually become a product designer.

[00:13:04] Ayan: Yeah, I know I love that versatility as a designer. I love the aspect of wearing different hats based on what your task is.

[00:13:10] Evan: I agree. I think that's one of the best parts of the job, is all the creative problem solving you can do with the tools at your disposal. It makes it so interesting every day.

[00:13:18] Ayan: On the note of tasks and versatility, I asked them a similar question: how do you define the product design job and what are your typical tasks?

[00:13:26] Alaa: The client would come with certain features or certain solutions to certain problems and my job would be to, okay, what is the main feature of what is the main goal of this software or product? Who are the users? What are the different users that will use this product and what are the specific tasks or events or items that this user is doing at a particular time? I would dissect this content, restructure it, I'll create hierarchies within that and like build journeys accordingly.

[00:14:03] Alaa: After that, the wireframing then prototyping and user interface, exporting the elements to the developers. I don't develop, so the developers would be doing their part. Then the testing afterwards. I have to be involved in this whole process, but I prefer that first part. It's more exciting to me.

[00:14:23] Marynes: When I was a UX designer, I was only focused on the screens and the flows and maybe doing some UX research and talking with customers for sure. But I was a bit far from the business goals or the tech requirements.

[00:14:41] Marynes: When I moved to product design and product owner, it was taking more responsibility for what I was doing. Now I can speak different languages now, not only product language or design language. I can speak tech, but I can speak business too. I think that very, very important. Like I want to design these this way because the user wants it, okay, perfect. But how are we going to pay for this? What is the outcome of these for our business? You need to learn and more things in these roles, not only design and design the screens.

[00:15:15] Jaivardhan: I am currently for the past three-four years I'm working for myself. I was working as a freelancer and like now I am trying to sort of formalizing it into a studio. I have a team of developers working for me and I plan on increasing my team and increasing the kind of work that I do. What I offer to clients is a one-stop-shop.

[00:15:42] Jaivardhan: Where they can come and they can get their product from scratch to finish, right from the experience to what the product should be to the design of it, to the execution of it, to the testing of it, to actually delivering it, to putting it out in the market. That's what I help my customers.

[00:16:01] Evan: So you need to have a high degree of fluency with all these different domains, whether it be the developers and the engineers who are creating the product to bring it to life, but also the business stakeholders various different levels — it sounds like — to be able to do this job successfully.

[00:16:17] Ayan: That can be quite daunting as you're entering this field and not really having any experience in that. I think it takes time and just through experience, you learned from one project, you adopt that to the other and it kind of just has a snowball effect.

[00:16:28] Evan: This job has a sense that maybe it requires a little bit of experience to do effectively that you could go to school, and call yourself a product designer and go through a more formalized program, but actually living the experience of dealing with business concerns or dealing with engineering concerns in the real world and the setbacks or the problems that come with that is kind of hard to replicate.

[00:16:49] Evan: And it probably requires doing the hands-on work for a little bit to really evolve yourself and your thinking and your capabilities and your communication ability to these different departments and be able to work effectively in the job.

[00:17:01] Ayan: Do you think it's because they started working in startups or small companies, because I think working for a large company you might not be given those opportunities because there's a specific person who will do each task, but when you're working in a small company or a startup, you have to kind of shift your role depending on what's required at that moment.

[00:17:19] Evan: Small startups, studios and agencies — it can put a lot of personal responsibility on you to handle more of the work. Whereas in a larger company, you have resources or people, as you said, do that job for you. And that can be great, but also it kind of slows the progress of getting the hands-on experience in these different domains. So, yeah, absolutely. I definitely think that was probably a key part of their journey into the product design role.

[00:17:46] Ayan: So I think for somebody who wants to get into this, it could be very intimidating in the sense of how do I get all that experience, but at the same time, if you're provided. That role or that opportunity, then it could be very advantageous to get those experiences. So you can become more versed in the role of product design.

[00:18:03] Evan: Yeah. I mean, it's a common refrain that UX design and probably this larger umbrella product design is being the glue of getting different departments and different, specialties, working harmoniously towards a business objective or serving users better to help the company or business do better.

[00:18:20] Evan: And so you definitely see that in their stories of how they have to be the connective tissue to these different specialties and getting things done.

[00:18:28] Ayan: So Evan, on the idea of product designers being the glue in the team, I actually asked a very similar question to better understand who do they work with the most.

[00:18:37] Alaa: I collaborate mostly with the client. He or she is the source of information to me.

[00:18:44] Alaa: We collaborate with other artists or freelancers. We have a few illustrators who work with us on particular projects, especially when it comes to animation or infographics.

[00:18:55] Alaa: There's always a focus on developers rather than on designers. So you'd find the ratio between developers and designers 2 to 12, something like that. Even in big companies where design is a major thing, the designer is expected to be working with all these developers. There's not enough of us within the team.

[00:19:15] Marynes: Well, depends on the company size of the startup I'm working on right now, I'm a freelancer, every day talking with the CEO and the tech lead. I'm talking with tech every day, with developers every day. So I'm speaking with them all the time and also the CEO, because we need to be very aligned with the business goals.

[00:19:37] Marynes: And in the previous company, in the beginning, only with the project manager and the other designers, and some developers, but at the end, when I was in a high position, I was stuck in every day with the CEO, the CTO, the project manager, you know, like big positions, because as I say, we are glue, we are aligning , everything, and everyone. So we are in like an, a strategic position.

[00:20:04] Jaivardhan: I interact with developers because that happens on a daily basis. I constantly have projects that are running where the development is happening alongside. As a designer, I feel also it is — especially if you are in the UX field — it is very important to understand the development.

[00:20:23] Jaivardhan: I am not saying that you need to know how to code, but you need to understand how development happens because a lot of times, what is designed and what is developed are two completely different products. And the vision between both of them does not match at all. When you start understanding development and what are the restriction, what are the things that it can do, how it can actually create magic in the world, that is when design and development come together and a great product as well.

[00:20:55] Evan: What's interesting in the research for this episode, looking at different job descriptions and breakdowns of product designer job, and what does it mean versus UX designer you'll get the sense of well, product designers are, they're very focused on business objectives and they, they have this really big emphasis on speaking the business language.

[00:21:14] Evan: But we've just heard , from our guests an incredible amount of discussion on talking with developers still, like that is still a critical component of this job — in being fluent and empathetic with a development staff who is actually engineering the product.

[00:21:28] Ayan: I think that can also be a point of frustration as a designer is that we can create something, but without interaction with developers, our work just stays static so developers are kind of bringing life to our research and our work. So they're such an important role to play in the way that we can finalize all the steps that we had taken to get to those designs.

[00:21:49] Evan: And another thing was they're a very small component of a much larger group. They're often outnumbered, they're often a singular design resource, or maybe they have, some consultants that working with, but they are one. And, and I think it's especially so for product design, because you've actually assumed other responsibilities, whether it be UX research, or maybe some copywriting, or maybe seen UI design that may have been a colleague in another organization, and you would have had a peer or someone else to collaborate with. Now, you are the designer resource for an entire project.

[00:22:24] Ayan: Is it also dependent on the maturity of the company? If a company does not really understand what the role of the designer is, and they just felt like they need to hire, that could be really difficult for that designer because not only do they have to do their work in the many tasks that are involved as a product designer, they also have to educate and help the others in their company understand the importance of them being there.

[00:22:46] Evan: Yeah. And there may be an actual emphasis on your graphical — if you come from a visual graphic design background — where like, well, we need someone to make this look proper and nice. And so they will be more than happy for you to utilize those skills to improve things and make them visually pleasing and aesthetically pleasing.

[00:23:05] Evan: But what am I actually creating, am I actually getting user insights into what I'm making. Am I able to investigate and talk to people who were supposed to use it? That could be a harder political sell and having that not lost in the jump from business requirements to engineering execution that may require some persuasion and relationship building for the product designer to ensure that it's not lost.

[00:23:27] Ayan: So I think it's it working with developers or working with people who are in the business aspect of the company, it really goes into observing and understanding what are the needs. And how can you help them fulfill those needs?

[00:23:40] Evan: This is often lost in some folks in the design job that you can learn the latest tool. You can apply your skill and craft to make the best coolest-looking stuff. But that energy and resource often could be better spent making a few more friends within your organization and understanding and empathizing with what they have to go through to make it a reality or what pressures they may be under. More friends always help.

[00:24:04] Ayan: And it could also be different methods rather than each team working in a silo. It could be doing a sprint together where everybody comes together and brings their insights and maybe as a designer, you can take that later on and formalize it and come back to the team.

[00:24:18] Evan: So speaking of friends, do they have any advice for someone who may be considering pursuing product design?

[00:24:24] Ayan: Good question. I don't know about you but I'm often asked if I have any advice for somebody who wants to get into this field. So the question I asked was, what advice would you give to a friend about pursuing product design?

[00:24:36] Alaa: My advice would be for new product designers to not get disappointed, to not lose the enthusiasm that pushed them to choose this career. Even if the boss or the client undervalues these ideas or doesn't listen to them, be proud of what you have suggested and be hopeful that one day you will have a chance with your own project to share your enthusiasm or ideas or expertise and produce something up to your expectation.

[00:25:11] Marynes: I think the best advice is to work a lot on yourself first. What do you want, what is your purpose? And which projects do you want to work on or which companies, because sometimes you are in a company working and learning and then you find out I can't be here anymore. I'm not aligned with the company's vision. You know, I started as a graphic designer. I'm now I'm doing more strategy and sustainability. So I think there are different positions inside design that you just need to see what do you want? And where do you fit?

[00:25:51] Marynes: And also, trust yourself, be curious and learn about other things: business, leadership, coaching, because you never know when you would need that soft skill. Personal soft skills I think are the most important because you can learn the other things, but the personal ones are the hardest to learn.

[00:26:11] Jaivardhan: I think anybody who wants to work as a UX Designer needs to first question themselves, why do they want to come to this field? Is it because it's becoming sort of a buzzword right now? Is it because it's an emerging field? Is it because they actually like solving problems? What is the sole reason that they come in here?

[00:26:36] Jaivardhan: I think if it's a general interest about solving problems, it's a great place to be in because you will be solving problems. And a lot of times people question that " How can somebody who just changes the shape of a button can change the world, But you actually can do that.

[00:26:55] Evan: So I think it's really profound from their advice. These strangers are people who have never met each other all over the world, what did they say? I didn't regret not going to school or learning that tool or that technique or that method, that certification. They said, you need to understand yourself and your own motivations and values as to why you want to pursue this job, because you're going to need it to weather the setbacks and the disappointments and the challenges. You need to have that reservoir within yourself as to why I am doing this and what I want to pursue this to really make it into and to make it successful.

[00:27:28] Ayan: I really appreciated the honesty that they each brought actually to this question. We often focus on learning these tools and you'll be the most successful designer out there, but instead, they emphasized the inner work that you need to do to help guide you on the uncertainty of the path that could await for you.

[00:27:44] Evan: You had another point that came up was understanding your employer too. Does your employer align with your values about your personal values and what do you want to do? Sometimes people don't think about that in terms of just learning the craft, you're also doing the craft and the context, and certainly, with the product design job, there is a heavy business element of what are we trying to accomplish? And hopefully, you should align generally with what you want to put out into the world as well.

[00:28:10] Ayan: And it goes back to one of our episodes that we did with Jennifer on deceptive design is we have a lot of responsibility in what we do, so best apply that into something that you believe in rather than making people do things that don't align with your values.

[00:28:25] Evan: I think that's a good, subtle point that technology or just business planning can insulate you from what you may be doing. But when you have a user-centred design process, as part of your job, whatever you call yourself, you're going to be interfacing or should be interfacing and talking with the people who are going to be used this product and service and that can be a hard thing to balance in your head if it's somehow manipulative or destructive or at odds with that person's goals or, how their data are handled or what their understanding of what your product and service offer them.

[00:28:58] Ayan: I think what's interesting too, about knowing your employer is, there can be this idea that there's a scarcity. So you got this job, maybe you can't ask too many questions of the employer because you might put yourself at risk of not getting it. But what do you think about that, Evan? Do you need to start working for the company to fully understand their values? Or can you bring that up at the beginning as a discussion as you're in the hiring process?

[00:29:19] Evan: You could maybe look at company resources. You could talk to your professional network, as we spoke recently, on connecting and learning from insiders about what is it really like to work there? What are the processes? What do they do? What's expected of a product designer in this job? On some level, you do have to live it a bit to really know, but what's often lost for people is they don't sit down for five minutes and think about, hey, what am I doing? And, am I growing? Am I doing the things that I want to do? And that's often lost in the hustle of just doing the job.

[00:29:48] Evan: Interesting psychological study, where they gave someone a buzzer and they rigged them up and it was electrodes. And they said, just sit in this room. If you press that button, you'll shock yourself ... Alright I'll come back in an hour and what people did — a lot of people did — they shock themselves, even though they're hurt because nothing else to do, They were just sitting in a room because they didn't want to sit with their own thoughts.

[00:30:09] Evan: They didn't want to just think and contemplate and so, we often have reluctance to think and deconstruct what our values and our goals are and our career. Maybe try a little bit of that, and you may help direct you into why you want to be a product designer, because if you understand your why you can overcome any how.

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