Behind the Wings

Go inside Constant Peg, the once-secret Cold War program that gave American fighter pilots the rare opportunity to train against real Soviet MiG aircraft.

In this special bonus episode, get a full-length lecture from former U.S. Air Force fighter pilot John Mann. A veteran of the F-4 Phantom II, F-15 Eagle and Operation Desert Storm, Mann flew MiG-21s and MiG-23s with the Red Eagles during Constant Peg. He shares an extraordinary firsthand account of the aircraft, people and training program that transformed American air combat preparation.

What you'll hear:

• Lessons from Vietnam: Why the U.S. Air Force reexamined its aircraft, weapons and fighter training
• The origins of Constant Peg: How real Soviet aircraft became part of a highly classified adversary program
• Meeting the MiGs: Mann’s first encounter with MiG-17 and MiG-21 aircraft during training
• Flying the MiG-21: Its impressive turning ability, unforgiving handling and unconventional cockpit systems
• Inside the MiG-23: Tremendous speed, variable-sweep wings and dangerous flight characteristics
• Training against the real threat: How Constant Peg taught American pilots to recognize and counter Soviet aircraft
• The maintenance heroes: How crews kept unfamiliar MiGs flying without factory support, technical manuals or standard replacement parts
• Risk and secrecy: The strict security rules, hazardous test flights and sacrifices behind the Red Eagles program
• Preparing for Desert Storm: How realistic adversary training helped give American aircrews a decisive advantage
• See the aircraft: Learn more about the MiG-23 on display at Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum

Learn More:

• Visit Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum to see the MiG-23
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

What can a few grains of asteroid dust tell us about the origins of life on Earth?

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with NASA astrochemist José C. Aponte about the organic chemistry preserved inside asteroid Bennu. From NASA’s OSIRIS-REx sample-return mission to amino acids, nucleobases, and the mystery of life’s left-handed molecules, Aponte explains how scientists search for clues to our chemical origins. This one is going to be cool!

What you’ll hear:

• Why NASA traveled to Bennu: Pristine asteroid material offers evidence that meteorites altered by Earth’s environment cannot.
• How scientists prevent contamination: A fingerprint can contain more organic material than the tiny Bennu samples researchers analyze.
• What researchers discovered: Bennu contains 14 of the 20 amino acids used to build proteins and all five nucleobases found in DNA and RNA.
• Why molecular diversity matters: Thousands of nitrogen-bearing compounds reveal the complex chemical environment of the early solar system.
• How a mass spectrometer works: Aponte explains how scientists use molecular fragments to identify compounds inside asteroid material.
• The mystery of left-handed amino acids: Life uses almost exclusively one mirror-image form, but scientists still do not know why.
• The search for tryptophan: Researchers found tentative evidence that could represent the first extraterrestrial detection of this complex amino acid.
• What Bennu’s salts reveal: Minerals formed through evaporating water suggest Bennu’s material originated in a different part of the solar system.

Learn More:

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

NASA’s Meredith McKay discusses how diplomacy, trust, and international cooperation are helping turn ambitious space missions into reality.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with Meredith McKay, Deputy Associate Administrator in NASA’s Office of International and Interagency Relations, about the partnerships behind humanity’s next steps into space. From the hard-earned lessons of the International Space Station to Artemis and the growing community of nations signing the Artemis Accords, McKay explains how cooperation on Earth becomes exploration in space. This one is going to be cool!

What you'll hear:

• NASA diplomacy behind the scenes: How a team of fewer than 50 people helps scientists, engineers, governments, and space agencies build successful partnerships
• Reworking the International Space Station: McKay recalls helping negotiate a new assembly plan after the loss of Columbia reduced the remaining shuttle flights from 28 to 18
• What makes international cooperation last: Why shared goals, clearly defined responsibilities, and benefits for every participating nation give partnerships staying power
• Lessons from 25 years aboard the ISS: How trust and open communication have sustained one of the most complex international projects ever attempted
• The transition beyond the space station: How NASA is helping prepare commercial destinations and a new economy in low Earth orbit
• What makes Artemis different from Apollo: The international crews, spacecraft, rovers, payloads, and surface systems supporting a long-term return to the Moon
• What the Artemis Accords actually do: How their principles put the Outer Space Treaty into practice through peaceful exploration, scientific cooperation, astronaut assistance, and coordination on the lunar surface
• Building the future together: Why listening, remaining open to unexpected opportunities, and “rowing in the same direction” may be as important as any spacecraft or technology

Learn More:

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

As wildfires grow larger and more complex, pilots, firefighters, scientists, and aviation experts are developing new ways to protect communities from the air.

In Episode 78, Host Rick Crandall revisits interviews about wildfire aviation originally recorded in 2021. From Colorado’s East Troublesome Fire and infrared-equipped Pilatus PC-12s to single-engine air tankers, Firehawk helicopters, and night-vision operations, these experts reveal how people, aircraft, and real-time information come together to support firefighters on the ground. This one is going to be cool!

What you'll hear:

• The East Troublesome Fire reaches Grand Lake: Resident Ernie Bjorkman and Assistant Fire Chief Schelly Olsen recall the evacuation and the challenges facing local firefighters.
• Why wildfires are becoming more difficult to contain: Colorado State Climatologist Dr. Russ Schumacher explains how heat, drought, wind, forest health, and climate shape fire behavior.
• Seeing through smoke with infrared sensors: Mission Sensor Operators explain how Colorado’s Multi-Mission Aircraft locate hotspots and map active fires.
• A symphony in the sky: PC-12 pilot Dave Bickerstaff describes how tankers, helicopters, lead planes, intelligence aircraft, and ground crews coordinate over a wildfire.
• Single-engine air tankers: SEATS are agile aircraft that can operate from smaller airports and deliver precise retardant drops to help ground crews contain fires before they grow.
• The Firehawk: CAL FIRE leaders explain how the Black Hawk-based helicopter transports crews, performs rescues, and carries a 1,000-gallon water tank.
• Marc “Thor” Olson’s night-flying legacy: The veteran pilot explains how night-vision goggles could extend fixed-wing firefighting operations beyond sunset.

This episode honors Marc “Thor” Olson, who died in the line of duty on November 16, 2021, while flying a nighttime water-drop mission on the Kruger Rock Fire near Estes Park, Colorado. It also recognizes every firefighter and aviator who has made the ultimate sacrifice protecting people, communities, and public lands.

Learn More:

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Brigadier General Micah “Zeus” Fessler shares stories about flying the F-15 and F-22, traces Colorado fighter aviation from early biplanes to the F-16, and today's homeland defense mission.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with “Zeus” about the aircraft, missions, training, and people that shaped his military career, including combat operations, Weapons School, and the Colorado Air National Guard. From the 120th Observation Squadron’s early Jennys to Buckley’s ongoing alert mission, Micah offers a wide-ranging look at fighter aviation and the community behind it. This one is going to be cool!

What you'll hear:

• Why Buckley has remained on alert since 9/11 and how Colorado supports the defense of NORAD/NORTHCOM.
• How Colorado Air National Guard aviation grew from early biplanes at high elevation to Block 30 F-16s.
• Why the Viper remains a flexible, high-demand aircraft for air-to-air, close air support, and emerging drone defense missions.
• "Zeus" explains the discipline, radar work, stick-and-rudder flying, and debrief culture that shaped him as a fighter pilot.
• How one loud, eventful training flight in Alaska turned into a fighter pilot call sign.
• What changed with stealth, sensor fusion, battle management, and fifth-generation tactics.
• A memorable F-22 sortie involving ISIS targets, F-16s, tankers, command-and-control aircraft, and Russian air activity.
• How citizen airmen preserve deep experience while serving both overseas missions and local Colorado communities.
• Colorado aviation heritage, the 120th Fighter Squadron, Minute Men demonstration team, and the legacy of service connected to Wings’ newest aircraft—a Thunderbird F-16D.
• "Zeus" encourages young people to believe in themselves, control what they can control, and accept help along the way.

Learn More:

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Air Force veteran Art Elser reveals what it took to fly low, slow, and exposed as a forward air controller during the Vietnam War.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with former forward air controller Art Elser about flying more than 400 combat missions in the Cessna O-2A Skymaster and O-1E Bird Dog. From directing air support over the Ho Chi Minh Trail to helping Special Forces teams under fire, Elser offers a personal account of aviation, fear, courage, responsibility, and the long journey home. This one is going to be cool!

What you’ll hear:

• Inside the O-2 Skymaster: How a civilian aircraft became a flying observation post, radio relay, and target marker
• The forward air controller mission: Why FAC pilots remained low over the battlefield after faster aircraft departed
• O-1 Bird Dog vs. O-2 Skymaster: How the aircraft differed in handling, performance, and suitability for remote airstrips
• Marking targets under fire: How Elser used white-phosphorus “Willie Pete” rockets to guide attacking aircraft
• Over the Ho Chi Minh Trail: Searching for trucks, supply areas, choke points, and hidden movement beneath the jungle
• Night operations: Using starlight scopes, Blind Bat flare ships, B-57 Canberras, and F-4 Phantoms to find targets in darkness
• Becoming “Jake 44”: How Elser built personal relationships with the Special Forces teams who depended on him
• Courage and coming home: What Elser learned about fear, character, loss, and carrying the war’s memories into civilian life

Learn More:

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

NASA’s RAVEN aircraft is helping researchers explore one of aviation’s biggest next steps: electric vertical takeoff and landing.

NASA’s RAVEN aircraft is helping researchers explore one of aviation’s biggest next steps: electric vertical takeoff and landing.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with NASA researchers Siena Whiteside and Jason Welstead about RAVEN, the Research Aircraft for eVTOL Enabling Technologies. From air taxis and regional mobility to noise, safety, hover-to-forward-flight transitions, and the challenge of scaling new aircraft designs, Sienna and Jason explain how NASA is building a flying laboratory for the future of advanced air mobility. This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:

• How eVTOL aircraft work: What electric vertical takeoff and landing means, and how these aircraft differ from helicopters and airplanes
• What advanced air mobility means: How drones, air taxis, and regional aircraft fit into the future of transportation
• Meet NASA’s RAVEN: Why NASA is building a remotely operated research aircraft to study eVTOL technology
• Air taxi vs. flying car: Why eVTOLs are more likely to connect transportation hubs than replace your car
• The safety challenge: Why public trust and certification are essential before eVTOLs become common
• Noise and community impact: How researchers are studying aircraft sound, not just loudness
• Hover to forward flight: Why the transition from vertical lift to wing-borne flight is one of the hardest problems to solve
• Why size matters: How RAVEN bridges the gap between small models and full-scale passenger aircraft
• Open eVTOL research: How NASA hopes to share data with universities, startups, and industry partners
• Advice for future aerospace engineers: Why broad experience and curiosity matter in a fast-changing field

Learn More:

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Rob “Z-Man” Zettel shares his story from inside one of the Air Force’s most secret Cold War programs, Project Constant Peg.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with Z-Man, a retired U.S. Air Force fighter pilot and former member of the legendary 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, the “Red Eagles,” about what it was like to fly real Soviet MiG fighters in the Nevada desert. From the F-4 Phantom and F-5 aggressors to the MiG-21 and MiG-23 at Tonopah Test Range, Zettel offers a firsthand look inside the classified program designed to train American pilots against the real thing. This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:

• How Vietnam changed air combat training: Why the Air Force realized pilots needed to train against real adversary aircraft
•  Getting recruited into Constant Peg: The mysterious selection process and entering one of the Air Force’s most secret programs
•  First time flying a MiG: Learning Soviet fighters with Russian-labeled controls and almost no manuals
•  MiG-21 vs. MiG-23: The strengths, weaknesses, and personalities of the Soviet fighters compared to American jets
•  Flying against America’s best: Training Weapons School, Topgun, and frontline fighter crews in real MiGs
•  Life inside Tonopah Test Range: The secrecy, satellite windows, and culture surrounding the Red Eagles
•  The psychology behind Constant Peg: How the program eliminated “buck fever” before real combat
•  What the MiGs taught the Air Force: Lessons in maneuvering, energy fighting, and defeating Soviet tactics
•  The maintainers behind the mission: Why keeping the MiGs flying required “miracles” from the ground crews
•  The legacy of Constant Peg: Why Z-Man believes the program transformed U.S. air superiority for decades to come

Learn More:

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Jim “JB” Bell shares his story from inside one of the Air Force’s most secret Cold War programs, Project Constant Peg.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with Jim, a retired crew chief of the legendary 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, about what it took to keep MiG fighters flying in the Nevada desert. From maintaining MiG-17s, MiG-21s, and MiG-23s at Tonopah Test Range to flying on unmarked C-5s into China and bringing home F-7 fighters, Bell offers a rare perspective on one of the most classified adversary air programs in U.S. Air Force history. This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:

• How Bell got recruited into Constant Peg: From a chance meeting in a bar at Nellis to joining the secretive 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron
• From F-4 Phantom to MiGs: Why working on Soviet fighters was completely different from traditional Air Force maintenance
• What Constant Peg was built to solve: How Vietnam exposed the need for American pilots to train against real adversary aircraft
• Learning to fix MiGs with no manuals: Trial and error, machine shops, scrounging parts, and building solutions from scratch
• MiG-21 vs. MiG-23: Why the MiG-21 was reliable and rugged while the MiG-23 became a constant maintenance challenge
• The crew chief mindset: What it meant to fully “own” an aircraft and why trust between pilots and maintainers mattered
• China missions and unmarked C-5s: Traveling to Beijing in civilian clothes to recover Chinese-built F-7 fighters for the program
• Life at Area 52: Working inside Tonopah Test Range alongside the early stealth programs and living inside a world of total secrecy
• How Constant Peg changed air combat: Why Bell believes the program saved lives and gave American pilots a critical edge
• The end of the program—and why it still matters: Why Constant Peg ended and why Bell believes a modern version should still exist today

Learn More:

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Major General John Barry shares his story of leadership through some of the most consequential moments in modern aerospace and national security history.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with John Barry, a fighter pilot, combat leader, former NASA official, and retired U.S. Air Force Major General. From Cold War alert missions in the F-4 Phantom to command at Luke Air Force Base, from surviving the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon to helping investigate the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster, Barry reflects on a career shaped by what he calls “windows in history.” This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:

• From the Bronx to the Air Force Academy: The unexpected path that launched Barry’s career
• The F-4 Phantom and Cold War Europe: Going from dead asleep to airborne in five minutes while sitting nuclear alert
•  A lesson in restraint: The near-shootdown that shaped how he identified targets in combat
•  Nellis, Red Flag, and flying against MiGs: How realism in training changed the fight
•  NASA and Challenger: What he learned watching an organization in crisis
•  Command in Turkey: Rebuilding trust after tragedy while flying combat missions over Iraq
•  Luke Air Force Base: Leading the largest fighter wing in the world and confronting dangerous F-16 engine failures
•  Leadership in practice: Why “make it better than you found it” became his guiding principle
•  Inside the Pentagon on 9/11: Evacuation, shock, and leadership in the immediate aftermath
•  Investigating Columbia: The technical failure, the cultural breakdowns, and the “echoes of Challenger”

Key takeaway:
Preparation, humility, accountability, and the willingness to learn from history are what allow leaders and institutions to respond when the stakes are highest.

Learn More:

•  Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
•  Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
•  Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.