Rob “Z-Man” Zettel shares his story from inside one of the Air Force’s most secret Cold War programs, Project Constant Peg.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with Z-Man, a retired U.S. Air Force fighter pilot and former member of the legendary 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, the “Red Eagles,” about what it was like to fly real Soviet MiG fighters in the Nevada desert. From the F-4 Phantom and F-5 aggressors to the MiG-21 and MiG-23 at Tonopah Test Range, Zettel offers a firsthand look inside the classified program designed to train American pilots against the real thing. This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:

• How Vietnam changed air combat training: Why the Air Force realized pilots needed to train against real adversary aircraft
•  Getting recruited into Constant Peg: The mysterious selection process and entering one of the Air Force’s most secret programs
•  First time flying a MiG: Learning Soviet fighters with Russian-labeled controls and almost no manuals
•  MiG-21 vs. MiG-23: The strengths, weaknesses, and personalities of the Soviet fighters compared to American jets
•  Flying against America’s best: Training Weapons School, Topgun, and frontline fighter crews in real MiGs
•  Life inside Tonopah Test Range: The secrecy, satellite windows, and culture surrounding the Red Eagles
•  The psychology behind Constant Peg: How the program eliminated “buck fever” before real combat
•  What the MiGs taught the Air Force: Lessons in maneuvering, energy fighting, and defeating Soviet tactics
•  The maintainers behind the mission: Why keeping the MiGs flying required “miracles” from the ground crews
•  The legacy of Constant Peg: Why Z-Man believes the program transformed U.S. air superiority for decades to come

Learn More:

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Jim “JB” Bell shares his story from inside one of the Air Force’s most secret Cold War programs, Project Constant Peg.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with Jim, a retired crew chief of the legendary 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, about what it took to keep MiG fighters flying in the Nevada desert. From maintaining MiG-17s, MiG-21s, and MiG-23s at Tonopah Test Range to flying on unmarked C-5s into China and bringing home F-7 fighters, Bell offers a rare perspective on one of the most classified adversary air programs in U.S. Air Force history. This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:

• How Bell got recruited into Constant Peg: From a chance meeting in a bar at Nellis to joining the secretive 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron
• From F-4 Phantom to MiGs: Why working on Soviet fighters was completely different from traditional Air Force maintenance
• What Constant Peg was built to solve: How Vietnam exposed the need for American pilots to train against real adversary aircraft
• Learning to fix MiGs with no manuals: Trial and error, machine shops, scrounging parts, and building solutions from scratch
• MiG-21 vs. MiG-23: Why the MiG-21 was reliable and rugged while the MiG-23 became a constant maintenance challenge
• The crew chief mindset: What it meant to fully “own” an aircraft and why trust between pilots and maintainers mattered
• China missions and unmarked C-5s: Traveling to Beijing in civilian clothes to recover Chinese-built F-7 fighters for the program
• Life at Area 52: Working inside Tonopah Test Range alongside the early stealth programs and living inside a world of total secrecy
• How Constant Peg changed air combat: Why Bell believes the program saved lives and gave American pilots a critical edge
• The end of the program—and why it still matters: Why Constant Peg ended and why Bell believes a modern version should still exist today

Learn More:

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Major General John Barry shares his story of leadership through some of the most consequential moments in modern aerospace and national security history.

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with John Barry, a fighter pilot, combat leader, former NASA official, and retired U.S. Air Force Major General. From Cold War alert missions in the F-4 Phantom to command at Luke Air Force Base, from surviving the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon to helping investigate the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster, Barry reflects on a career shaped by what he calls “windows in history.” This one is going to be cool!

🎧 What you’ll hear:

• From the Bronx to the Air Force Academy: The unexpected path that launched Barry’s career
• The F-4 Phantom and Cold War Europe: Going from dead asleep to airborne in five minutes while sitting nuclear alert
•  A lesson in restraint: The near-shootdown that shaped how he identified targets in combat
•  Nellis, Red Flag, and flying against MiGs: How realism in training changed the fight
•  NASA and Challenger: What he learned watching an organization in crisis
•  Command in Turkey: Rebuilding trust after tragedy while flying combat missions over Iraq
•  Luke Air Force Base: Leading the largest fighter wing in the world and confronting dangerous F-16 engine failures
•  Leadership in practice: Why “make it better than you found it” became his guiding principle
•  Inside the Pentagon on 9/11: Evacuation, shock, and leadership in the immediate aftermath
•  Investigating Columbia: The technical failure, the cultural breakdowns, and the “echoes of Challenger”

Key takeaway:
Preparation, humility, accountability, and the willingness to learn from history are what allow leaders and institutions to respond when the stakes are highest.

Learn More:

•  Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
•  Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
•  Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Retired Col. Thomas Kirk shares his story of surviving solitary confinement for two years as a prisoner of war at the “Hanoi Hilton."

In this episode, Host Rick Crandall talks with Tom, a fighter pilot, squadron commander, and Vietnam War POW. From one of the most intense air-combat battlefields in history to the harrowing story that followed, Kirk explores what it took to persevere through the unthinkable. There is a lot to learn!

🎧 What you’ll hear: 

• Inside Hanoi airspace: What it felt like flying through dense SAMs, AAA, and MiGs 
• October 28, 1967: Leading a major strike, getting hit, and making the call to finish the mission 
• Ejection and capture: The moment everything changed 
• Life inside the “Hanoi Hilton”: Torture, isolation, and survival 
• Two years alone: How routine, discipline, and mindset kept him going in solitary confinement 
• The tap code: Communication, connection, and resilience among POWs 
• Leadership under pressure: Commanding pilots in one of the most dangerous theaters of war 
• Coming home: The physical and emotional return after 5.5 years 
• Perspective: Faith, service, and “every day above ground is a great day.”

Key takeaway: 

Kirk’s story reframes resilience as endurance over years, built on discipline, belief, and connection to others. 

About the guest: 

Col. Thomas H. Kirk is a retired U.S. Air Force Colonel and combat veteran of both Korea and Vietnam. He commanded the 357th Fighter Squadron and flew missions over North Vietnam in the Republic F-105 Thunderchief. Shot down on his 67th mission, he spent more than five years as a prisoner of war. He was awarded the Air Force Cross, four Silver Stars, and multiple Distinguished Flying Crosses. After his release, he returned to active duty in leadership roles before retiring and later built a successful business career, continuing to speak on leadership and resilience. 

Learn More: 

• Read the full show notes on the Wings Over the Rockies website
• Donate to Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum
• Subscribe and leave a review to support the show

This episode is supported in part by United Airlines.

Season 8 of Behind the Wings podcast is here. Hosted by Rick Crandall, the next 10 episodes deliver first-hand accounts from across the aerospace world, spanning historic combat missions, classified Cold War programs, and pivotal moments in space exploration. This season continues the show’s focus on connecting past, present, and future through the people who lived it.

Release Schedule:

New episodes drop every other Monday, beginning April 20, 2026.

More Info:
Visit Wings Over the Rockies Air & Space Museum.
Support Wings' Mission of aerospace education and inspiration.

Special thanks to United Airlines for supporting the podcast and helping bring these stories to life.

Get an inside look at NASA’s Quesst mission and the effort to bring supersonic flight back over land, without the disruptive sonic boom.

For more than 50 years, civil aircraft in the U.S. have been effectively barred from flying supersonic over land, not because of speed, but because of noise. NASA aims to change that paradigm with the X-59, a purpose-built experimental X-plane designed to reshape shockwaves so they reach the ground as a quiet “sonic thump” rather than a window-rattling boom.

We’re joined by Cathy Bahm, Low Boom Flight Demonstrator Project Manager at NASA Armstrong, who leads the design, build, and flight test progression of the X-59, and Lori Ozoroski, Commercial Supersonic Technology Project Manager at NASA, who oversees mission planning, acoustic validation, and community response testing, and how that data is delivered to regulators.

Why it matters: if regulators adopt a noise-based limit, commercial supersonic routes over land could become realistic again, potentially cutting long U.S. flights nearly in half.

Retired Pilot Col. John “Warman” Stewart discusses his Vietnam combat sorties and how the Super Sabre saved his life.

In this episode, we explore the history of the North American F-100, John’s Air Force career, his first supersonic flight, and what it was like operating one of the most important fighters of the Cold War. We also get an in-depth walkaround to understand how the Super Sabre's design features enabled its mission.

From breaking the sound barrier to supporting troops on the ground, this one is going to be cool!

What You'll Hear

• The F-100 Super Sabre was the U.S. Air Force’s first supersonic fighter, marking a major leap in speed, capability, and risk during the early Cold War.
• Flying the F-100 required constant attention, as early supersonic airplanes left little margin for error and demanded precise energy management.
• John’s Air Force career placed him at the forefront of the jet-age transition, pushing the envelope for both pilots and their aircraft.
• Combat operations over Vietnam highlighted the F-100’s role in close air support, where speed and firepower directly supported ground troops.
• The Super Sabre’s legacy is one of innovation and hard-earned lessons, shaping fighters and tactics that followed for decades.

Support Wings Over the Rockies' non-profit mission to educate and inspire future aerospace leaders: https://wingsmuseum.org/support/donate/

Human Factors Engineer Cynthia Hudy shares what it takes to design a spacecraft around the people who fly it.

We explore Cynthia’s role designing the systems inside Orion, from displays and controls to life support, radiation protection, and the everyday realities of living in deep space. We also discuss how astronaut feedback and human-in-the-loop testing are shaping Artemis II, the first crewed Orion mission to carry humans beyond low-Earth orbit since Apollo 17.

From engineering for diverse crews to preparing humans for deep-space autonomy, this one is going to be cool!

What You'll Hear

• Artemis II is NASA’s first crewed mission beyond low Earth orbit since Apollo 17
  This 10-day flight around the Moon is the critical proving mission before astronauts return to the lunar surface.
• Orion is designed like a “tiny house” in deep space
  Every system inside the capsule is engineered so four astronauts can live, work, sleep, eat, exercise, and respond to emergencies in an extremely confined space.
• Human factors engineering shapes nearly every design decision
  Orion is built around human physical and mental limits, treating the crew as an essential part of the spacecraft system—not an afterthought.
• The interior of Orion is where Artemis II differs most from earlier missions
  Life support, a functioning bathroom, exercise equipment, food and water systems, and crew-controlled displays are all coming online for the first time.
• Astronaut testing directly changed how Orion works
  “Human-in-the-loop” trials led to real design changes, from how doors open in microgravity to how astronauts sleep, move, and access critical systems.
• Artemis II is the proving ground for future Moon landings and Mars missions
  What Orion demonstrates about comfort, safety, autonomy, and crew well-being will shape Artemis III and long-duration human exploration.

Support Wings Over the Rockies' non-profit mission to educate and inspire about aerospace: https://wingsmuseum.org/support/donate/

NFL Alum and Pilot Jimmy Graham shares stories about stunt flying and how it helped him relax when off the field.

In this episode, we discuss how Jimmy earned his pilot certificates during his football career, airshow aerobatics, and his restored 1957 Army Beaver and Vietnam-era UH-1 Huey. We also explore Jimmy's role as Chairman of the EAA Young Eagles program, and his commitment to inspiring future aviators. From the discipline of professional football to the focus required in the cockpit, this one is going to be cool!

Resources:

• Jimmy Graham Bio
• EAA Bio
• Young Eagles
• Bell UH-1H Iroquois Fact Sheet (U.S. Air Force)
• de Havilland Canada DHC-2 Beaver Fact Sheet (Wikipedia)

Chapters:

• (00:00) - Intro

Retired Fighter Pilot Lt. Col. Tammy Barlette shares how flying the A-10 prepared her for operating UAVs like the MQ-1.

In this episode, she discusses the Warthog's capabilities, combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan, controlling the Predator and Reaper drones, returning to jets after a spinal injury, and how she now shares lessons from the flight deck as a mental performance trainer. As air superiority continues to shift from cockpits to control rooms, we get an inside look at why the pilot's role is more complex than ever before. This one is going to be cool!

Resources:

• Athena’s Voice (Tammy's Speaking Website) 
• Crosscheck Mental Performance (Tammy's Training Website) 
• A-10 Fact Sheet (U.S. Air Force) 
• MQ-1 Fact Sheet (U.S. Air Force) 
• MQ-9 Fact Sheet (U.S. Air Force) 

Chapters:

• (00:00) - Intro