Better Learning Podcast

In this episode of the Better Learning Podcast, host Kevin Stoller speaks with Dr. David Dumon, the superintendent of Altar Valley School District in Tucson, Arizona. Dr. Dumon shares his background, from his early school experiences and decision to go into education to his current role as a superintendent.

They discuss the challenges and rewards of educational leadership, the importance of striving for academic excellence while maintaining a supportive environment for students and staff, and the innovative approaches Dr. Dumon has taken to address teacher shortages and community engagement. They also covers Dr. Dumon's career progression, the significance of morning routines, and the impact of external pressures such as school labeling on education.

Takeaways:

• The importance of being visible
• Providing teachers with the skills need to succeed
• Not everyone ends up in education the same way
• Community involvement strengthens the school culture
• There's more to a school than the labels

Dr. David Dumon serves as the superintendent of Altar Valley School District. He began his career in 1995 as a social studies teacher at Alhambra School District in Phoenix. In 2000, Dr. Dumon started his administrative career at Surprise Elementary, a K – 8 school, in Dysart Unified School District. He spent the next 14 years in Dysart, most of which was as the principal at Surprise Elementary. His school's achievements were recognized in 2012 when he was selected for the Arizona School Administrator, Distinguished Administrator Award – Elementary Division and honored as a finalist for the Rodel Exemplary Principal Award.

As superintendent of Altar Valley, Dr. Dumon has focused on ensuring schools run efficiently and allocating resources appropriately, while always considering what is best for kids. Dr. Dumon is committed to maintaining small class sizes and offering free, full-day pre school and kindergarten. In 2022, Dr. Dumon was awarded the All Arizona Superintendent Award for Small Districts and completed his certification for American Association for School Administrators (AASA) National Superintendent Certification.

Dr. Dumon is a three-time graduate of Arizona State University where he received his bachelor, master, and doctoral degrees. He lives in Tucson with his wife, daughter, and two dogs.

Follow David Dumon on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-dumon-ed-d-3541209/

X: https://x.com/ddumon1

Soundbites: "What's one small thing someone can do to change their school?"

Episode 208 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/

Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website

Is your furniture shaping the way students learn?

In this episode of the Better Learning Podcast, host Kevin Stoller welcomes Amanda Hastings, NCIDQ, ALEP, IIDA, Senior Interior Designer at SLAM Collaborative. Together, they dive into the critical role of furniture in shaping educational environments and its impact on students, teachers, and communities.

Amanda's passion for creating dynamic, student-centered learning spaces shines as she shares her approach to furniture design in schools. With nearly two decades of experience and a client-centered philosophy, she emphasizes that furniture should do more than complement design—it should guide it.

Takeaways:

• Furniture should guide the design, not just follow it.
• Engaging teachers early in the design process is crucial.
• Quality furniture impacts student learning and engagement.
• Educating decision-makers on furniture value is essential.
• Community involvement can drive educational improvements.
• Building a positive school culture is as important as the physical space.
• Collaboration among designers, educators, and communities is key.

Amanda's approach to interior design is both thoughtful and deeply client-centered. With almost two decades of experience in designing inclusive environments, she brings a wealth of expertise to her work, particularly in the public-education sector. Amanda's design philosophy is rooted in connection—she prioritizes building relationships with clients to understand their unique needs and visions and values understanding the "why" behind every design decision. Her designs are conceptually grounded, blending creativity with the personality of the client to create engaging, dynamic spaces where everyone will thrive.

Her recent completion of the ALEP program in 2023 was driven by her passion for designing educational environments, and equipped her with expert knowledge and an enhanced desire to not only create student-centered spaces that enrich their learning experience but also to bring this knowledge to the clients and communities she works with.

Sound Bites:

"Furniture should guide the design, not just follow it."

"We need a cultural shift in education."

"Seeing furniture in person makes a huge difference."

"The furniture world can be confusing."

"The transformation of schools is the best part."

Follow Amanda Hastings on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanda-hastings-shea-ncidq-alep-iida-ba603755/

Learn More About The SLAM Collaborative

Website: https://slamcoll.com/

Instagram: theslamcollaborative

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-s-l-a-m-collaborative/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheSLAMCollaborativeArchitecture

X: https://x.com/SLAMcollab

Episode 207 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/

Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website

Transcript

Kevin Stoller (00:06.754) Welcome to the Better Learning Podcast. My name is Kevin Stoller, host of the show, and we're always looking at how we can improve education from a variety of different aspects. We've been really digging into the furniture aspect and how much it impacts the space over some recent episodes, and I've been having a lot of conversations. So that's why my guest today, Amanda Hastings. Amanda, how are you doing?

Amanda Hastings

Very good. Thank you for having me.

Kevin Stoller

Yeah. And so why don't you give a little bit of just like your intro and the firm you're with and what your role is. And then we're just going to go back because we were having conversation and that's really I want to get back to really just the conversational part of it.

Amanda Hastings

I am a senior interior designer at the SLAMM Collaborative based in Connecticut. We have firms all over the country, but mostly the public ed work that we do K-12 schools is in Connecticut and out of our Rhode Island office, Connecticut office.

Mostly just Connecticut and Rhode Island are where we focus. I've been working on public ed for most of my career. So probably like the 18 years or so. And again, mostly Connecticut. And yeah, it's become one of those things where I just kind of fell into doing schools because the firm I worked for before did it. And then it just has become a passion of mine where now I solely do K-12 public school work.

And it is something that I'm definitely passionate about, like the learning environments and the furniture aspects of that. Last year I completed the ALEP program, which was tremendously insightful. And it kind of blew my mind that like, how do you get to this point in your career where you're working on school so far? And there was so much information there to learn. I kind of makes you feel bad of like, my God, I wish I had known this like 15 years ago and was working, you know, towards these things at that point and understanding the reasons why behind everything that we're doing. So at this point, I really feel like it's important to, for me to share that knowledge with either other designers in my firm or, you know, definitely with the clients, but like would love to like find a way to kind of bring more of the information out to the general public. Cause you just, I just feel like, not everybody understands what we do, why we do it, and how the classroom is impacted by design.

Kevin Stoller (02:21.068) I love it. Yeah, perfect. And we have talked because I've been trying to, I wanted to interview a lot of people, not on the podcast. I've been interviewing, I think I'm at somewhere in the mid-upper 30s or 40s people just being like, from your perspective, what's the best practices of the projects that you're doing? What's the best way to make sure that the furniture is incorporated so that

that the intent of the space and the culture and the teaching and the pedagogy, everything aligns. So when they go into that space, that it really makes the impact that we're seeking. And you were the ones that we were getting pretty deep in the weeds. So I'm like, you know, we need to really get the details in on an episode like this. So I was just starting to tell you before we recorded this, one of the things that I've gotten from it is that

We did a three part series that's going to be coming out by the time this one goes, it will be there. So people can go back and listen to it. I'm really looking at the why it matters and then more of like the how and some of the best practices. But what I've been landing on, it does feel like the best, the best case scenario is typically when it is a team collaborative approach and that furniture is really looked at very early in the process. And it sounds like your view on that is very similar on that. What I mean, from your point of view, like what what's the best case for you? Like if you were going to guide a district through this, how would you guide them through the process?

Amanda Hastings

I think so. First, I'm going to say when I first started working on schools, a lot of times like the interior designers wouldn't even be involved until like, you know, like all the spaces are laid out, you're coming in halfway through the design. And that to me, I'm like, how, how is that helping that, you know, like, like the furniture is not something that should just follow the design. It should be helping to guide it. like, you know, whether you're setting up a classroom or an office or a media center, catering those, that design to what that space is, is so important. So like, I think that has definitely evolved with the work that I've been doing. And, you know, this was a long time ago. like being an advocate for getting into your designers and the people that are doing the programming and planning involved very early on and making sure that they are part of that space planning.

And before, maybe even before you're talking with the client, just using your best practices to kind of figure out how do these spaces work so that when you do have those initial conversations with the client, you've already brought the design to a certain point where you know how it functions, know how, know, the, you know, essence of like a media center. So you can talk them through what you're showing to have that conversation. But I feel like sometimes, you know, if the design doesn't have the ability to bring that conversation to life, that's where you're, you're struggling at first. So making sure that you truly are embedded in the design from the beginning to be able to have those conversations. how early?

Me, I'm usually when the project starts, when we go to the interview is when we kind of start having that conversation. And then, you know, when it's SD, the beginning of very schematic designs of just working for me, working with our programmers. They do a lot of space planning and just even making sure they understand what the size of a classroom needs to be, what you know, what you need in there to have those dynamic layouts that if.

desks are all just facing forward in a room. Like you might not need as much space as you do if you're moving them around and having flexible furniture. really making sure that everyone who's working on the project understands the why you need certain square footage or why you need visibility to the media center or visibility to other places to kind of activate those things. I think so very early on, as soon as we start the project, we're having these conversations.

Kevin Stoller

Yeah. So as I've been talking to people and just coming off LearningSCAPES and, you know, and when a recording this, we're heading into EDspaces. Like it's all like I feel like this is a topic that just keeps coming up and went probably because I'm bringing it up. But but also because I feel like it is like we're at that moment in like the industry. Yeah, we're getting this momentum like where if you would have said 10 years ago, like these newer products were coming out and like we were recognizing that they make an impact and we were putting it in, but then the teachers weren't kind of coming along. And now I feel like we're addressing that that was recognized and now we're doing a better job as an industry of getting the teacher voices and bringing them along on professional development. So now I feel like the last step to like really get this is, is how do we kind of get the team approach to go in earlier?

To do this and it really comes around like just like the earliest conversation of like let's be talking about furniture very early. us it definitely helps when you have a school district or you have a city that's already you know up on that information and they're pushing for it so you know it's much easier obviously when you don't have to educate everybody that's on the project for like, is this so great? When they come to you with that, that makes it so much easier. So we've definitely seen more push. Like for example, a Rhode Island project that we just did, I just had to write an entire letter to be submitted with my furniture package to explain to them the entire process along the way and how we engage staff and what we did to make sure that they were educated. And that's a new thing. Like we've never had to do that with any of our furniture packages before. So now it's being brought from that state review to say, hey, this is important and we want to make sure that you're doing it. So show us how you did that. So that to me is exciting because, you know, it doesn't feel like you're out here just like pushing forward and on your own that really it's coming from, you know, the important people that are funding these projects. So. Yeah, I always use this like that bell curve that if you look at like an industry, like a product life cycle, like I felt like, you know, like we were like kind of those trendsetters and then the early adopters and now we're we're at the point where if we're not at the early majority we may even be further along where I think this is like the majority is recognizing what's going on which is exciting.

So this is where I'm at and I'd love to get your take on this. I feel like there have been two camps of when it actually comes down to more of like the mechanics of how how furniture is approached on a project. There's kind of the camp that I would say is more than kind of the more traditional approach of like, we're going to build a spec and we're going to bid it out. And that's typically going to be like roughly six months prior to a school opening. Maybe they'll get a little further ahead. Maybe it'll be nine months. But and then there's this other camp.

And that's more of like, we're going to pick our partner early on. We're going to do some type of valuation and pick our partner first before we pick the products. Have you had experience with either one of those or is yours typically some type of hybrid?

Amanda Hastings

A little bit of a hybrid. Mostly bidding. A lot of times it comes from the client. They sort of dictate what it is.

In Connecticut, you have the option of either using a state contract or going to bid. But you're limited by who's on the state contract. And thankfully, a lot of the school products are, but not necessarily everything. And then there's limits to that. So it's working around that contract system. But we kind of do a hybrid thing in my office where even if we go to bid, we're limiting what the product could product is, so you're not just opening up to anyone providing you anything and then kind of having to vet it and work with the client to figure out on the end, know, are these chairs comfortable? Like, does this one match this one? Are they equal in ergonomics and durability? We kind of dictate upfront, like, here are your three things that we've already vetted that these ones, here's your basis of design that we know that we want and two, that we will accept, and that is it. So we kind of control exactly where getting it.

It's not a perfect system. Ideally, we would love to just go work with VS and get the VS chair or work directly with Smith's systems and get exactly what we want. But for me, it's always been very hard because it's not always up to me of how we can do that. Working within the parameters that I have, we try very hard to make our own rules to make the system work for us.

Kevin Stoller

Yeah. And it is, I mean, you're 100 % right from what I'm...been hearing from everyone. It is so dependent on each state and what the requirements are. And then obviously, sometimes the districts have different preferences in there. Yeah, and I think that's, that's the piece to me that is probably like the, the next wave of the conversations that we that be next proving how do we do this? Yeah, of the how we do this because yeah, because because I do think that that's where we're at right now. Like, like, this is the moment where we need to have the discussions of like, is furniture a commodity? Or is furniture, you know, an integral part of the learning environment? Because you know, the reality of it, like, if you have to put three equals, on there. They're never quite equal. if you start mixing and matching, it doesn't have the same design intent where if it was all the basis of design, or if you can say, hey, this is exactly what I want, you can actually pick that and the district can actually pick this is what we want on there. that's why you like

Yeah, if I'm going to put my my experience on it, it's like, man, when you can do that, you're going to have a much better result. You're going have this collaborative approach. You're going to know exactly what you're getting. You're going to know the pricing upfront. You're going to say like, hey, we are not going to be, we're not going over budget and we can now decide what is the most important thing. So if we want to put more of our resources into a certain, a certain part of the school or certain ones, we can now

like collaboratively make those decisions versus putting a bid out and then trying to piece it all back together once we get all these bid prices. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely would help them, you know, maintain the level of what you want in the end, which I feel like sometimes like, not, know, our struggle is sometimes, sometimes not everyone really understands the value of the furniture, no matter what you say. And everyone has, you know, their things that they think are the most important, whether it be an architectural item or something for the custodial, like a very expensive piece of equipment for a custodial. And so it's weighing those things where everyone kind of comes in there with their own opinions. so furniture is not always the top priority for everyone. sometimes we get the, we'll just use the existing chairs and desks and they're all attached to each other and it's fine. They're in good condition. And you just think like, no, no, please.

Like, let us figure out like a way to work with the budget and work with what you're getting. And, you know, if you can truly get what you want in the end, like that would definitely help them. you know, it's always that struggle of like not everyone sees that furniture as the priority based on, know, whatever they're coming to the table with there. Yeah. So is it, is it the biggest obstacle if I'm hearing you right is more of like the education of the client? I would say, yeah, the education of the people that

make the decisions. Not necessarily, you it's not always teachers who are making decisions. A lot of times it's, you know, people that are part of the building committee, the Board of Ed, superintendents, like, you know, they all kind of have a lot of influence because they are the ones that make the financial decisions. So it's us bringing our expertise to them so they understand that this is something valuable that they should be putting their money into and why, right? What, from your point of view, what would be like if you can wave a magic wand to make this better or to make sure these projects have a bigger impact, what's the biggest thing that you think is getting in your way?

Amanda Hastings

I think honestly, people just are very unaware of the furniture world. They don't really understand what is available to them or why behind furniture design and how the classrooms function.

I feel like a lot of times, you know, like a board of ed or a building committee is parents or people that are retired and they're kind of doing this as, know, on the side. So a lot of times they're not even working in the schools or they're not necessarily like seeing what it's like living in those classrooms. They feel like a lot, like the people that come to the table don't necessarily know all the stuff that we deal with on a daily basis or necessarily the stuff that the teacher's dealing with on a daily basis. some way, if there was a way to get more education out there to those, that tier of people that are invested in the schools. I think it would really help, you know, people, not only us, but obviously the schools and school systems and all the way down to the students, because those people would be advocating for it at that level. And earlier on than even like the architects and designers are involved in the play, you know, and they're, they're putting this together to get the funding for these projects in the beginning, if they set that as a priority.

before it even becomes a project. I think that is key in getting better furniture. Yeah. I always think of it it's in a lot of ways, it's almost like a cultural shift. like, how do you, yeah, how do you? And to generalize, a lot of times people on the building committee are older because they have more time. They're retired. And they don't know what's happening in current furniture design or classroom.

concepts and you know a lot you know there's a lot of people who are educated but sometimes you're like I've had the same desk back then like what's the matter you know that attitude and you're like no let me tell you let me explain you know it's some of those things that you you do encounter which you know also make you frustrated yeah you can do better

Kevin Stoller

Yeah, all right. So that's a good perspective because that's what I'm yeah like in my mind like I'm only dealing with with this all the time So maybe we maybe we still do need to drive home or that why and show it, you know, put it in a bunch of different Formats for them because I'm always trying to think I'm like, know, like, know, like is it you know, like

They may not be the ones that making the decisions, but I think they definitely can have a voice in what those decisions are. And it is directly benefiting their kids. So I that's, don't know how they would get educated on this, but I feel like that's probably a missing link of like people that don't necessarily know what's happening. All right. You're hitting like one of my passion points right here. Did we, did we talk about, the nonprofit and the docu-series last time we talked that we were working on? Okay. All right.

I'm going to tell you about it. And you could. But that was one of the things that I'm like, you know what, we really need to bring the communities on like like we're working on this more from like the industry side. But wouldn't it be awesome if it was more the demand side of like the communities were coming to the school saying, why, why aren't we doing this? So we just our team just spent a lot of time thinking about like, how do we like like like what does make those cultural changes? And we kept landing of like it's like it's the media and entertainment industry. Like most major movements and things that have happened, it's because there's been a movie or a TV show or something. And I always come back to the show Fixer Upper with Chip and Joanna Gaines. Super entertaining ship. Not everyone has farmhouse. Exactly. Everyone has shiplap on their walls now. They completely changed the way homes and...

you know, in the US are designed. And so, yeah, so we've been trying to look through that and be like, how do we do that? How do we do it in an entertaining way where it's not, you know, just for people who are normally interested in schools? So we started a nonprofit with, you know, with other partners, and we're always looking for more for more people to come along with this called Second Class Foundation. That was... that's really rooted in how do we improve education through the use of media and storytelling? And one of the first projects we're doing is we found this amazing film crew to do a docu-series and they did the first episode, which is really powerful. It's really well done. I would definitely recommend everyone watch it. It's not that long. It's like nine minutes long, but it hits home like...

really of like, yeah, I've heard people say it's heartbreaking. And I'm like, yeah, just know that's the first that's only the first episode. Sometimes you need that, like a little bit of that. Yeah. He's honest to like, get the point across. Right. Yeah, I keep saying like, we have a mapped out like 10 episode series. And it's like every good story it it has to show the transformation.

So the first one is really heartbreaking and it's really like kind of showing a really dire need of a school in Idaho. But our intent is to weave other stories in around the country and show like others like, I mean, Cranston schools are great example of you look at some of the things that they're doing in that district and to be able to showcase, be like, look, this is what some schools in the country are doing.

And some districts are working towards and being able to weave some of these stories and these narratives, but really wrapped around really good character development in there. I know it's a big thing. mean, I'll show you. Yeah. I mean, I'll send you the link, but, you know, secondclassfoundation.org is is for the listeners and we can put the link in there. But yeah, I keep coming back to them like I don't know how else to get other people in to it other than trying to meet them where they're at. And, you know, and the intent is how do we put content like Netflix quality types of things that when they're sitting down at night saying, what am I going to watch? They actually watch something like this. The TikTok world and the, you know, Instagram reels and getting that so that you're sharing it. The next person is sharing it. I have no idea if I can start that, but like that, you know, that's like the world it seems like everything is like spurred from right but like how to get that going with beyond just our industry. yeah. So digging into like what you do on an everyday basis, you have a very good working knowledge of like, what products are out there and the why behind it. I mean, what are the things that

that you wish other people knew or had the viewpoint, either if they're just starting out or they haven't done as many schools or? I think it like like for me, like going to Ed spaces and really seeing and having that like, like not just having like a sales rep come and kind of give you the pitch, but like really seeing the furniture and feeling it and sitting in it. And like it's amazing how that actual small act of like

Kevin Stoller (23:03.674) bringing a sample chair to a client and having them sit in a student chair that is ergonomic and does have movement and they instantly get it. Like they're like, my God, like this is what the students should have, I understand. So I feel like anyone who's new to that, just like getting out there and like seeing the furniture in person and like hands-on and testing it and sitting in it and like just getting involved in that, like seeing it in person. Like there's so many things, know, like

pictures and images of classrooms and all of that you can see online. But I feel like it doesn't really resonate until you're trying it out yourself. So that to me is like step one. If you're going to do school design, like go to EdSpaces or go to showrooms or go to a factory tour, go and like see, you know, get the spiel, but also get to test it yourself so you understand. Yeah. What was the moment for you like when it clicked?

Amanda Hastings

I think, you know, like I'm I'm a BS person. I

Like I love our, VS dealers, Robert Lord, and they are fantastic. So working with them, our VS prep and just, I distinctly remember when you say video, like David Stubbs, the video that they had done of like school in Hawaii and just how transformative it was. And then just going to their factory and seeing that in person. And then not only just understanding the why behind the, the design and like how the classroom functions, but also like the integrity of how the furniture is made, the durability, which is huge in schools. Like that's a huge thing. You know, they get this furniture usually once for 50 years. So how is it going to hold up? And, you know, is it going to be suitable for kids in high school who are like rough and tough on it and all, and like just being able to like sit in it and test it and see like how this is made and how does this really benefit the school on

you know, a very wide variety of ways, whether it's budget or like I durability or comfort or flexibility or, you know, future proofing for how does this evolve over time? They were very integral in that for me of just kind of getting that message and that, you know, it's not just being dedicated to them, but then seeing how does that work with other people and how are other companies evolving? Because I feel like in the past 10 years,

Like definitely in the past 15 years, a lot of other companies have come along and a lot of other companies have definitely evolved what they're offering for furniture. I think following in that trend, right? Like there was not a lot of the same stuff back 10 years ago that there is now that you have way more options for what you can do with the classrooms, sit to sand desks and chairs that are different ways of sitting and those things and just being excited for what's evolving.

Kevin Stoller

Yeah, totally, totally agree. Yeah, I feel like that story component of really that understanding of of the why behind it is so important. To me, I remember like distinctly in that video, I think it's not just the furniture, right? Like it's showing the classroom that the kids are sitting on the floor and they're like having like a soft spot where they're leaning against the chair or

sitting underneath the desk. So it's not always like the in the box that you're picturing of like, how does this desk work? But hey, can someone sit under this? And now all of sudden, it feels like a cozy spot. And they're leaning against a soft seating in the room. And how are they using that differently? it's not just about the one function that you think that that piece of furniture has, but how can that whole classroom kind of be an inviting and exciting place for kids to be engaged? Yeah, yep. Love it. Yeah.

That to me is like a perfect example of like, man, like there are these resources that just so desperately want to help on these projects that to be able to work with them and bring people in and do that. How often are you either approach like what's it like from your point of view when people are

calling you about furniture or you're trying to learn about furniture because one of the things that I've been learning from these interviews is that the furniture world can be confusing of like, who are the distributors? Who are the manufacturers? Who does what? Like, what are the contracts? who has access to what? Have you figured that out yet? I I feel like I know that more so just because of working on the school projects.

Kevin Stoller (27:40.078) I don't think it says, you the people in my office that do furniture for higher ed or corporate don't really understand that as much as I do because I constantly have to work with bids and who is a dealer and what's a manufacturer and what manufacturers are on state contract and with who and like that level is a little bit more intense, I think in like the public ed world than it is in other areas. So I feel like I do have a good understanding, but sometimes it, you know, it's hard to tell

what's the sales pitch versus what is the genuine, and you kind of have to like, just, you know, do your research and be open-minded, but also, you know, keep those questions in mind. you know, sometimes you just see, well, maybe you just copied the last person's because they're so successful. And so is that really what, like, what your furniture is bringing or, you know, like, it's just kind of being aware of, I don't know, you know, the whole spiel behind it sometimes. It's not always.

all just about like the furniture and the classrooms, but sometimes it's a sales pitch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, like that I've been in the furniture world, you know, on this for 15 years now. And there's definitely, you know, there are definitely people who like are in it and care about, and I would say a lot in our industry are, and then there's some where it is clearly they're just trying to sell stuff. and I think on my end,

making sure that your client kind of understands the integrity of the products that we kind of are promoting and the dealerships and the manufacturers who do have their best intentions and wanna be there for the long run. And like why that might be something that you're selecting versus somebody else that might be less expensive or why you're selecting one company or one chair over another.

that it's not for on us, you it's not just about the sales pitch, but there is that whole breadth of reasoning behind it. So, you know, it kind of helps us to understand all of that behind the scenes because it's very hard to sell the wide your client without understanding the difference between, you know, the whole spectrum of every chair that's out there and like what sets one apart from the other.

Kevin Stoller

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Completely. It's a, yeah. I, yeah, I think this is another one that I'm like,And I think the furniture industry, and I'll put myself in that category of like, think we can be doing a better job coordinating and not making, I mean, I know there's always going to be a competitive component to it, but I know enough of like the people in this industry and the best ones don't have that competitive mindset. They have this collaborative mindset.

And, and that's my hope is that, you know, like we're genuinely in this because we want to create better learning environments. that is our goal. of you out there who have that passion that comes through, right? Like you, it's very easy to see who's passionate about this and, and, you know, versus like what is just a sales pitch. that passion is definitely a driving force that like, resonates with on the design side of these for me.

Yeah, yeah. And that's what's the part that's encouraging to me is that I think the ones that are like really getting involved like at a deeper level of this, whether it's in, you know, the A4LE community or the Ed market, you know, and, you know, the corresponding conferences on there. What else are you looking at? Like, what are the things that are either headaches to you or... And then I'm gonna...

ask you the converse there when we wrap up. I am going to say a hundred percent every project, every single time budget is always the biggest hurdle. You know, sometimes you are very limited on what you have. Sometimes there's other things that get pushed into the furniture budget. So it's not just your typical furniture. So you're dealing with a lot of different aspects. And I, I feel like that and as prices are rising and things are more expensive, but sometimes those budgets have been increased.

to deal with inflation. That's always a struggle on our end of how do you provide exactly what you think they need when the budget just kind of feels like it's fighting you all the time. And like, where is it that you can kind of pull back or like, what can you do so that you're not compromising the integrity of what they're getting in the classroom or what the students are getting for furniture, but how do you balance that with like keeping on budget that every single time is the hardest part. Yeah, how are you seeing like the budgets?

Kevin Stoller (32:28.39) be assigned? Are they taking percentage of the job costs or are they looking at per square foot or some other? A lot of times I'm not involved when they're set, but I think They just give you that budget and say, this is what you can echo over. I think the way they do it in Connecticut is it's a certain amount per student. If you have 600 kids, 600 times, I don't know what the number is, whatever that number is.

And then that's what you kind of across the board. We've had challenges where they're like, we have 600 students. But really, the school is planned for 800 students. And you're like, that budget didn't actually cover the new school. That covered your existing school. then it's those challenges. But I think for me, it's always understanding, what is that budget in the first place? So that can really think about what's the best thing that we can do. For me, it's always

What's the best that we can get them, the most that we can get them within that budget that, that, you know, allows them to have like the greatest school possible. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Now on the positive side, what, keeps you going? What do you, what do you love about this work? Like, what are the things that get you excited about or really find fulfilling? Yeah. First of all, this, like having other people, like it, I feel like it's been a newer thing for me to like after doing the A-Lab and being a little bit more involved in like the,

that world that there are other people out there who are doing this too. I feel like people are excited about it. So that is, I'm so excited about that. Cause usually being the only one in my office for the past 10 years that worked on Public Ed, I felt like, you know, I have other designers and other firms that I know, but like, there's not that community for me. So like having a community now has been fantastic. Also, you know, like so many of these schools haven't been touched in 50 years. And when you see what their classrooms look like, what the,

chairs that they're sitting in that like, know, the art teacher has a closet. She doesn't have a classroom. She has a cart and that is it. And what, when you're working on these projects and they get to see that like, not only do I have like an entire classroom, like it's full of amazing things. Like that excitement is the best part. Like what the possibilities of what those teachers and students and like community have, like that is the best for me. And like, that's why I kind of.

Kevin Stoller (34:51.514) decided that like public ed really was like my favorite thing because it was just so different than doing like a corporate job or working on, know, like a higher ed. They're like amazing, cool projects. But for me, like that transformation that you have when you go from a school that literally you've had the more, know, the ceilings are crumbling on them. The like, the walls, the doors don't work. The windows don't, you know, like there's all these things that they're living in these horrible spaces. And when they ask you like,

Will I be able to turn on the lights in my room or can I come into my classroom and like not have to wear my coat in the winter? And then you say, well, of course. And then also here are all the other things that you could have like your, you know, here's the furniture options and here's like how this space is going to work. And here's like the view of the, you know, forest outside. It gets so excited. And that to me is the best part. Like that. And user. That's really cool. Well, thank you for the work you're doing.

Because I do think like you're finding, like you said, the community. I'm totally with you. mean, this community of it, it's there is a like a specialness to to this of like this type of work that is just different from other sectors. And it's really cool to to find this community that does generally care about it and kind of give that like.

extra attention to it and recognize like this is this literally is life changing. Like how lucky are we that we to do work like that? Yeah, like the entire community. has been to school. Most everybody you know has a connection with school, you know, so I feel like it's like everybody gets excited about it because they understand it. It's a part of everybody's life for the most part. So yeah, yeah. So yeah, I appreciate that. All right. Anything else I should be asking you that I didn't ask you about? gosh.

I mean, you know, I could keep talking, Yeah, I'm just, I just think it's exciting that in this time that they're, like I said, there's, there's motion, right? It's moving forward and it's just getting better all the time and more education and more information out there that, you know, broader communities are understanding about this. And it's just, it's going to make not only the schools better, it's going to make our designs better. It's just, yeah, a lot to come. That's exciting. So. Yeah. Very cool.

Kevin Stoller (37:07.782) All right. Well, to the listeners, if you have not hit subscribe wherever you're listening, just hit subscribe and betterlearningpodcast.com is the hub for everything. I mean, this is our community. So it is, you know, like being able to really look at this, figure out how we can do a better, but then also, you know, like having that broader view of like, yeah, learning environments are a big part of this, but it's also like, we're looking at education as a whole of like, we all are recognizing we want to give the best opportunities for every kid. And it's pretty cool. have a community like that, that we get to interact with. So, Amanda, thank you.

Amanda Hastings

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Kevin Stoller (37:58.874) Views and opinions expressed on the Better Learning Podcast are those of myself as an individual and my guests and do not necessarily represent the organizations that we work for, the Association for Learning Environments, K-12, Education Leaders Organization, or Second Class Foundation.

Are you ready to revolutionize the way your school thinks about furniture?

In our FF&E Procurement Revisionism Series, we'll explore how integrating flexible, student-centered furniture into your classroom designs can enhance engagement and foster better learning outcomes. Plus, learn how to overcome the hurdles of traditional procurement processes to streamline the journey from concept to installation.

Episode 3 of 3: The EXECUTION

In Episode 3 of the FF&E Procurement Revisionism Series, guest speaker Brad Kiehl demystifies the furniture procurement process, highlighting strategies to make it more efficient and stress-free for schools.

This episode covers the value of involving furniture dealers early, allowing them to work alongside design teams to ensure alignment between educational goals and furniture needs. Brad explains how early collaboration can help districts avoid common challenges, such as misaligned bids and inconsistent quality, while also simplifying logistics through a single point of contact for delivery and installation.

Takeaways:

• Early involvement of furniture dealers
• Best practices for the procurement process
• Benefits of cooperative contracts
• Simplifying delivery and installation through a single point of contact

We're thrilled to introduce Aaron Buehring as the co-host for this special three-part series of the Better Learning Podcast. As the Director of Educational Environments at Lionakis, Aaron brings over 15 years of interior design expertise and a unique background as both a professional anthropologist and interior designer. His holistic approach to design—integrating finishes, branding, furniture, art, and lighting—along with his commitment to research-based strategies, positions him as a leading voice in shaping NextGEN learning environments. Aaron's passion for enhancing how humans interact with space makes him the perfect guide for these thought-provoking discussions on the transformative role of furniture in education.

Follow Aaron Buehring on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaron-buehring-02473545/

Learn More About Lionakis:

https://www.lionakis.com/

Episode Guest:

Brad Kiehl has been working in the educational community for public and private entities for over 25 years and is currently the Director of Educational Planning for HTK Architects. Over the course of his educational career, brad has gained experience in all phases planning, design, construction and being an owner's representative.

Follow Brad Kiehl on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradkiehl/

The FF&E Procurement Revisionism Series on the Better Learning Podcast

Host: Kevin Stoller

Co-Host: Aaron Buehring

Episode 206 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/

Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website

Are you ready to revolutionize the way your school thinks about furniture?

In our FF&E Procurement Revisionism Series, we'll explore how integrating flexible, student-centered furniture into your classroom designs can enhance engagement and foster better learning outcomes. Plus, learn how to overcome the hurdles of traditional procurement processes to streamline the journey from concept to installation.

Episode 2 of 3: The HOW

In Episode 2 of the FF&E Procurement Revisionism Series, guest speaker Carey Upton dives into the critical steps for selecting and integrating the best furniture solutions in schools. This episode covers the essential role of "test-driving" furniture options through workshops and demo products to make well-informed choices that meet classroom needs.

Carey also highlights the importance of gathering feedback from teachers and students to ensure the selected furniture enhances learning environments effectively.

Takeaways:

• The importance of trialing furniture before making decisions
• Ensuring teacher and student buy-in
• Continuous professional development and support
• Gathering and utilizing feedback for continuous improvement

We're thrilled to introduce Aaron Buehring as the co-host for this special three-part series of the Better Learning Podcast. As the Director of Educational Environments at Lionakis, Aaron brings over 15 years of interior design expertise and a unique background as both a professional anthropologist and interior designer. His holistic approach to design—integrating finishes, branding, furniture, art, and lighting—along with his commitment to research-based strategies, positions him as a leading voice in shaping NextGEN learning environments. Aaron's passion for enhancing how humans interact with space makes him the perfect guide for these thought-provoking discussions on the transformative role of furniture in education.

Follow Aaron Buehring on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaron-buehring-02473545/

Learn More About Lionakis:

https://www.lionakis.com/

Episode Guest:

Carey Upton is the Chief Operations Officer with the Santa Monica – Malibu Unified School District where he oversees Facility Improvements, Maintenance & Operations, and Facility Use. His journey to supervising school facilities might seem unconventional having devoted the first part of his work life directing Shakespeare, teaching and managing theaters.

Carey's broad range of experiences has led to a passion for creating engaging learning environments. Carey has overseen modernizing and building new school buildings at the sixteen schools in the district, including the Discovery Building at Santa Monica High School that was short listed for the 2022 World Architectural Festival award.

Follow Carey Upton on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carey-upton-7921764/

The FF&E Procurement Revisionism Series on the Better Learning Podcast

Host: Kevin Stoller

Co-Host: Aaron Buehring

Episode 205 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/

Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website

Are you ready to revolutionize the way your school thinks about furniture?

In our FF&E Procurement Revisionism Series, we'll explore how integrating flexible, student-centered furniture into your classroom designs can enhance engagement and foster better learning outcomes. Plus, learn how to overcome the hurdles of traditional procurement processes to streamline the journey from concept to installation.

Episode 1 of 3: The WHY

In our first episode of the series, we explore the transformative impact of considering furniture as an integral part of the learning environment. We have discussions that focus on how movement, student choice, and rapid student-owned solutions drive engagement for both students and teachers.

Takeaways:

• The role of furniture in promoting movement and flexibility
• Success stories from educators who have adopted this approach
• Early inclusion of furniture in design processes
• Challenges faced and solutions implemented

We're thrilled to introduce Aaron Buehring as the co-host for this special three-part series of the Better Learning Podcast. As the Director of Educational Environments at Lionakis, Aaron brings over 15 years of interior design expertise and a unique background as both a professional anthropologist and interior designer. His holistic approach to design—integrating finishes, branding, furniture, art, and lighting—along with his commitment to research-based strategies, positions him as a leading voice in shaping NextGEN learning environments. Aaron's passion for enhancing how humans interact with space makes him the perfect guide for these thought-provoking discussions on the transformative role of furniture in education.

Follow Aaron Buehring on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaron-buehring-02473545/

Learn More About Lionakis:

https://www.lionakis.com/

Episode Guests:

Dr. Lennie Scott-Webber is a Thought leader in the research and design of learning places and space, with a profound belief in the evidence that the design of space matters for learning outcomes, and passionate about the unanswered solutions that leave students behind in their learning.

Eliza Loyola is a former Elementary School Teacher and Principal at Austin Independent School District in Austin, Texas. She helped lead the rebuild process at the district and was an advocate for change while going through the furniture procurement process during the renovation project.

Follow Dr. Lennie Scott-Webber on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennie-scott-webber-phd-2594a912/

Follow Eliza Loyola on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eliza-loyola-0702541b0/

The FF&E Procurement Revisionism Series on the Better Learning Podcast

Host: Kevin Stoller

Co-Host: Aaron Buehring

Episode 204 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/

Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website

At this year's LearningSCAPES conference in Portland, our team at the Better Learning Podcast had the incredible opportunity to sit down with a diverse group of educators, architects, designers, and thought leaders from across the nation. We wanted to get to the heart of what "Radically Student Centered™" means from different perspectives, so we asked all our guests two key questions:

1. What does Radically Student Centered mean to you?
2. How does that phrase apply to the work you do every day?

The answers we received in this compilation episode were as varied and insightful as the guests themselves, each highlighting unique ways the concept of centering students drives innovation in education.

Our guests included:

Chuck Saylors

Vice President, JM Cope Construction

Rosemary Park

Educational Planner, SMMA

Abby Dacey

Architectural Principal, Mahlum Architects

Andy Cottrill

Associate Principal, Hutteball + Oremus Architecture

Séamus Kelly

Associate Principal, Mithun

Laura Durgerian

Senior Associate, Mithun

Jeffrey Mann

Facilities Planner, Bethel School District

Brian Parker

Vice President / K12 Director, MHTN Architects

Tina McKone

Project Manager, DLR Group

Meredith Watassek

Senior Educational Planner, Stantec Architect

Irene Nigaglioni

President, IN2 Architecture, Inc.

Andy L'Esperance

Director of School Projects, Goode Van Slyke Architecture

Sean O'Donnell

Principal + K12 Practice Area Leader, Perkins Eastman

Wayne Reynaud

Principal / Texas K-12 Practice Leader, HKS, Inc.

Sarah Knize

Associate Principal, Ratcliff

Leonardo Gonzalez Sangri

Global Practice Director for Education, HKS, Inc.

Ken Crawford

Executive Director of Support Services and Athletics, Ogden City School District

Sandi Massey

Chief of Leadership and Professional Development, Houston Independent School District

Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Find out more about Kevin at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinstoller/.

For more episodes of the Better Learning Podcast, visit https://www.betterlearningpodcast.com/

Episode 203 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/

Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website

Are you a new school leader wondering how to create learning spaces that truly engage students and foster success?

In the latest episode of the Better Learning Podcast, Dr. David Cupolo, principal of St. James Intermediate School, shares valuable insights on the profound impact of school design on student engagement. In his conversation with Kevin Stoller, Dr. Cupolo highlights how thoughtful learning environments can transform education and offers essential lessons for new leaders navigating this journey.

Dr. Cupolo also explores how instructional leaders can drive change by focusing on both physical spaces and the school culture. He underscores the idea that a well-designed building must be paired with a culture that prioritizes student growth and active listening. When students feel heard and supported, they thrive in environments that encourage collaboration, exploration, and a genuine sense of excitement for learning.

For new school leaders, this episode is filled with actionable tips, from the importance of understanding the "why" behind school design decisions to embracing flexibility in both space and teaching. Whether you're aiming to enhance student agency, foster collaborative learning, or simply reimagine your school's layout, this conversation provides the guidance you need to take the first steps.

Takeaways:

• Schools should be designed with the needs of students in mind.
• Creating engaging learning environments can reduce boredom and increase student success.
• Student agency is essential for effective learning.
• Research can guide the design and use of educational spaces.
• It's important to reflect on the 'why' behind educational practices.
• Building a positive school culture is as important as the physical space.
• Listening to students can provide valuable insights into their learning experiences.
• Homework often has minimal impact on student learning outcomes.

Dr. David Cupolo has 18 years of experience in educational leadership as a building principal, including eight years at a cutting-edge, non-traditional facility; I offer a blend of practical experience and academic insight. Recently, I earned a Ph.D., during which my dissertation research delved into how instructional leaders understand and engage with the concept of 'learning thrill,' utilizing a framework developed by esteemed educational researcher John Hattie. The results of my research have profound implications for the design and renovation of school facilities and classrooms, highlighting crucial conditions that facilitate learning. I have presented on the topic of flexible learning environments at various conferences, most notably at three Association for Learning Environment (A4LE) Conferences, including the 2024 Southeast Region Conference this past April.

Sound Bites:

"You can have beautiful buildings and be an ugly culture."

"Kids want to collaborate and explore."

"We need to trust kids and listen to them."

"Learning thrill can be developed in schools."

Follow David Cupolo on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-cupolo-6b4a1623/

Read David's Article Designing for Learning Thrill

Spaces4Learning Article: https://spaces4learning.com/Articles/2024/07/09/Designing-for-Learning-Thrill.aspx

Episode 202 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/

Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website

Kevin Stoller (00:07.454) It's another episode of the Better Learning Podcast. I am excited about our guests today because we talk a lot about furniture and use and we can talk about it from like the designers and from the architects and what we do supporting education from the outside. But it's always good to get the perspective of the principals and the ones that are actually like using the spaces and hearing from the teachers and the students and being able to have that lens to it. So I'm excited to bring in Dr. David Capolo.

I screwed it up, I? Did I announce it? Did I pronounce it?

David Cupolo

It's Koo-pal-o! It's all good.

Kevin Stoller

Yep, and he's a principal at St. James Intermediate School in Horry County in South Carolina. Just for the audience, because I'll give you a little behind the scenes, I'm horrible at pronunciation and making sure I do it. And whenever I get it stuck in my head, it's so hard to switch it.

David Cupolo

It's why I don't read names at award ceremonies.

Kevin Stoller

I know because I'll get it stuck and I'm afraid I'm gonna mess up and I'm not the expert of that Yeah, I'm the worst. I'm like give me a script and I'll and I'll screw it up. So yeah, but but I really wanted to talk about from your perspective of where you got to what you're talking about like the thrill and getting rid of the boredom, but I want to start really from the from the very beginning for you and I want to hear what was school like for you.

David Cupolo

So I knew how to play the game. I knew how to be successful in school. And honestly, if I had a relationship and you built curiosity and made connection with me, it was an A. If you did not, I was a B for bye-bye, that type of thing. And C for see you later. It all depended. And came from a family of engineers and I chose to go into public teaching and education, which is great. But I think I was not...

That curiosity and connection for me in learning was not built in the area of math. was just too much of that skill and drill. so, but I played it well, you know, went on to college in Version, New Hampshire, and then a few master's degree at NC State. And that's where I really learned how to learn.

Kevin Stoller (02:33.058)

So talk about that, that learning to learn. What sparked that for you?

David Cupolo

I think it was, again, professors who allowed that agency, me to have that agency and explore the interests that I had, they gave the structural framework, but you really had to go do the work yourself and, you know, find those connections and challenge you. And I think there's the principle of Goldilocks, right? You know, that Goldilocks effect. And I think that had the right enough challenge and also the right enough support, but also the right enough freedom to, you know, take my learning further.

Yeah, kind of push me.

Kevin Stoller

OK. All right. So you usually when I when I talk to administrators, school leaders in there, there's like the big transition moments. There's the first one be like making that decision. Hey, I want to go into education. And then that typically puts them in a classroom. And then there's that second moment where they're like, you know what? I think I want to be outside of the classroom. I can have a different impact as an administrator. What were those moments like for you?

David Cupolo

Yeah, so I came into education teaching alternatively. I was not certified. I was working for a lessons called which transition program in Rhode Island and the police refer to something causing trouble. They have a different a, but these kids are just needed some more guidance, right? You know, and so I found out there was a lot of jobs teaching in North Carolina. So I moved down, taught special ed.

And it was interesting, my boss at the time said, you're a middle school teacher. I won't give a recommendation for anywhere. He goes, you connect with those kids. And I did it in, you know, in that timeframe, I quickly realized I want to have a bigger impact, you know? And I realized I could, I think. The students taught me so much that I realized, wow, what they're teaching me, I need to share it and need to use to impact other kids in other classrooms. So administratively, and you always have that principle that I think says,

Hey, you should go and be an administrator. And I had a couple of those who did that and lo and behold, quickly moved into assistant principal roles. And now I'm in my, going to year 19 as a...

Kevin Stoller

19 years. That's awesome. First.

David Cupolo

Thank you. Thank you.

Kevin Stoller (04:54.062)

I mean, we're, we're record, we're recording right now at the beginning of, of August, even though it doesn't, it won't release until later, but you're getting, you're getting ready for the next round of teacher students coming through. What's going through your mind right now?

David Cupolo

So teachers come back on Thursday, you know, and again, I'm like that teacher the first night, night before the first day of school. You have those jitters, but you're excited. You know, I'm excited to see what the year can bring. At my school grades five, six. So we'll have a new group of fifth grade students coming in, you know, and get to know those students and seeing what impact we can have on them.

You know, setting that foundation and framework for I go back to the student is the most important part of this building. Without them, we would not be here. You know, and this year we're kind of kicking off and be the one, be the one, you know, and how can you be the one? I entered the school year with, you know, saying, I'm going to reflect on how can I be the person I want to work with? And then this year, so now it's kind of tying it up that we're coming back.

How can I be the one I want to work with and be the one for those students? So I'm kind of wrapping my head around those thoughts and gear up. Yeah. So is a pretty typical every year you're coming in with like a new theme and a new direction that you really want to build in throughout the culture? So, yeah, I think yes and no. I always try to tie in on what we've always done, you know, and we always revisit the vision. We always...

revisit our beliefs, you know, and going back to this is what we believe and that is it, that we can be the one for those students and all students, when I say all, A, capital L, capital L, even the kid from that neighborhood is Ken Williams to say, you know, they deserve the best and, you know, they know that and I'm an amazing staff that go in every day and give it all for those kids. But, you know, just kind of tying it all together as we keep going along and just improving.

Kevin Stoller

Right. So talk more about kind of how you got this interest and at what point did you recognize how much the learning environment was really impacting the work that you do with that idea of like school is there for the kids?

David Cupolo

Yeah. So, you know, as I moved into my career, one of my dreams was I realized I wanted to open up a new school. And, you know, that'd be a cool thing to do and actually only had was in my second year in this Horry County. I'd been a principal in North Carolina and I figured, you know, it might not come along because only been at this school I was at short period. And, you know, they selected me to open up this school which is a different design model. There was only a few others in the state but it was a state of the art facility and, you know, it's net zero net positive energy in.

It looks like a mall, literally glass walls on the inside, collaboration spaces. But there was no schools like it. You know, we visited some different models to see what it was like. And every time you go to school, you know, I want to talk to the kids. I can do the tour with the adults, you know, and I can see. And one student, I can remember the school said, said, so how does this work with the glass and everything? You know, I'm an ADHD adult. How does it work? And I said, they said, it's like the zoo effect. I said, what's that?

They said, I see you, you see me, I'm gonna do my thing. I'm like an animal in the zoo, you're watching me and I'm in my element. I said, that is awesome. I said, okay, this will work. So, but I remember, and we entered the school, we got the keys and a Friday night teachers were coming back that Monday morning and my whole staff had never ever come together. And so we hadn't even been in the building. But I remember visiting while it was dirt. I bought a hard hat, scraped up a vest and a clipboard. And I went in like I was part of the construction crew just to see, you know, this process.

And finally I figured out who I was from meetings. But, know, trying to envision what this could be for kids and what environment we could create. Because you can have beautiful buildings and be an ugly culture, right? You know, so what can we really create for kids? And every parent meeting, I would start off with schools are built for kids. You know, this is their place. This is not our place. We serve them, so it was great. And coming into the building and really trying the collaboration spaces. So our first day back with teachers, I had my people spread out in the building doing different small PD sessions to see the acoustics, to see how it worked. And with teachers, I said, you can use the collaboration spaces. I didn't say there were rules to it. But I did say is let's let kids rise to the challenge.

Kevin Stoller (09:40.014) For sure. So I just want to set the stage a little bit. So that school opened about eight years ago. So 2016 definitely because so many people that are listeners of the show are involved with the design of schools. And that was definitely on the earlier side because what you're describing is pretty much the... I don't want to say the standard. Hopefully it's at least more closely aligned with that versus the traditional model that doesn't allow that flexibility and that collaboration. So you guys are going in. How involved were you in the process or was that coming from the district level? Who was really driving that vision of saying, we're going to build this new school. Have this opportunity of a lifetime. What was that like for you?

David Cupolo

So I came on the back end and it was more of the, know, decision-making. And I really think that net positive really was a big key for the school board, you know, and the design and the potential. So I don't know the conversations that we had about what pedagogy, you know, what we could do with in the classroom. I did help pick out desks and make sure the sizes were right for what we needed and chairs. But as far as, you know, how do you use it? It wasn't there, you know, it really wasn't. And that was my experience. So kind of fumbled through it with our staff, but more or less talking to kids and seeing how teachers were using it and kids. And I remember, I remember the first teacher that sent kids out to work in the collaboration space. like, wow, how's it going?

She goes, I don't know. go, well, let's see. And I fist bumped her, you know? And then the glass, I said, it's writable. I didn't say you had to use it. I didn't say you couldn't. Said it's writable.

You know, teachers started really using it, that's the fourth, you know, the fourth teacher, second, third teacher in the room using that students love working out those problems on the glass or, you know, anchor charts on the glass. And it was just kind of working with teachers and seeing how students should respond and then conversations with students. You know, I wish I had more on the front end I could speak to. I think now I offer a whole lot more to be able to say, hey, this is this is how we evolve.

Kevin Stoller (12:04.802) Well, that's why I wanted you to go through it because that's very typical in this industry, very typical in that there was a decision made at the district level or someone on the board or somebody said, hey, we're going to go this direction. But they're not always pulling in kind of the site leaders and teacher students perspective as they're doing that. Now, as an industry, we're getting better at doing that earlier on. But your experience is like very typical where you're almost like handed a building and now saying, go figure out how to use it.

David Cupolo

Yeah, Friday night at 7:20. got the key. Teachers show up on Monday. Yeah, here you go. Yeah. So, so you definitely embraced it hearing like that. And you know, you had teachers that do, were there ones that that fought it or, or saying like, man, I just wish I had my old space back. You know, there were some, there was a couple.

And they may have realized it wasn't necessarily their fit. But I remember one teacher who is interesting because she, this school's meant for older students and not these students. And I'm like, but look, they're doing it over there. And finally, it took a little while and she embraced it. And she actually retired, but said, thank you for giving me, my last two years was so enjoyable with my kids because of the, what we have here and what we're able to do and the way the building is being used in those spaces. So that was pretty cool.

Testament for her who was, you know, it was, it was a shift. Yeah. Yeah. Which I don't blame anyone changes hard. mean, if you've been doing something for a long time, one way, and then have to shift that quickly to a different way, that that's a tough change. It really was, it really was. And, know, and I'm a, I'm a research person. I'm a research geek.

I've known John had his visible learning work for years and those in education. If you don't know him, you better know him because what he writes about and the research he has people do, it's what works in schools. So that was part of that other foundation was, know, teachers necessarily don't want to know about the research right away, but kind of bringing it in and introducing them, okay, well, here's what the research says about student discussion and the impact. And here's cooperative learning. And here's how we can use the furniture and how to tweak it and better practice and tighten it up. you know, and trying to take that learning to another deeper level.

Kevin Stoller (14:24.268) Do you mind talking through a little bit of Hattie's research? It is important for us to understand the research band because a lot of us who are supporting it, who may not come from education background, whether it's on the architecture side or on the industry supporting education, the more educated we could be, the better.

David Cupolo

Right. And I think one of my, some of my favorite conversations are people in the industry and architecture in outfitters because of that, you know. And so his, again, that research out there shows what's effective, you know, homework has little impact on student growth and academic success. Class size.

You know, we learned during COVID, might be different if you have hybrid, but you had to do some other things well for it to be impactful, right? You know, and that's the piece. have to just, you have to learn the strategies and the research behind it. But yeah, so Hay and Greg Donahue proposed a conceptual learning model, skill, thrill, which was a synthesis of that research and visible learning of what worked. And oftentimes, surface deeper transfer, right? And we're often, we know in classrooms there's surface level learning and kids aren't engaged and we sit in rows, you know, and there's that boredom piece that I found, you know, and Cornwell in 2000, it was only two years ago, the art of only two years ago and how boredom has led to what a third of high school dropouts to half, you know, that's an issue, that's a crisis, you know, and that's something we can fix and that's where design and use.

Just because you put the kit desk together doesn't mean they're going to collaborate, right? You know, you got to use it effectively, but that's that research. So I want to study what learning thrill was, you know, it seemed like it just rhymed with skill and will. And, you know, it was perfect. So nobody had studied it. So I kind of talked to South Carolina structural leaders and how do you perceive and conceptualize it? Then what does it look like? What does it sound like in the classroom? Take me to those places and describe it.

And they described these deep, engaging experiences for kids. They were collaborating. were experiencing almost student agency. They were driving their learning. The teachers were just fostering that real environment for those students. But again, inductive learning, project-based learning, and thinking about how we design and materials and use of materials and how. Because teachers, it's about time, right?

Adam and Eve's teacher said, I don't have enough time to plan for them. It's just the way it is in education. We know that. So what can we do to help those teachers design rooms and make smoother transitions and furniture that's flexible so I can just easily maneuver it so I can do this over here. But then those learning spaces for students, what are they comfortable? Where are they more comfortable in taking their learning to a deeper level and really getting that thrill experience, you know?

Kevin Stoller

Yeah. Do you mind giving some examples of like where, because the space, how much that changes, like those concrete examples, I think are the stories are always good for people to hear to be like, hey, this is a kid that maybe 10 years, you know, in your first 10 years of being a principal may have had a different experience versus now what they have in that flexible learning environment that they're in now.

David Cupolo

Sure. Yeah, I remember when we all think and it was a few weeks into the school year. And this is this really hit me this this moment. So under the stairs of cement blocks in my school and this is sprinkler system. And there's a student like to work under there. But one day he's kind of just pulling on hanging on the pole. Nothing can do. What are you doing? He goes, What do mean? I said, You're pulling on the fire thing. It's sprinkler system. I go, Do you know what happens if that breaks? And he goes, No.

I go, neither do I, but I have a feeling it has a lot of water, a big bill and fire trucks. I go, go to your room. He goes, do I have to? And I was like, my, I sound like a parent. I'm like, tell you what, go for 50 seconds, just come back. Please don't do that again. We good? He's good. I said, we fist bumped. But then I started like, wow, I need to pay more attention to this, you know, and those students. And soon as I tell you, this is my space that I feel more comfortable on the floor in the corner on that pillow. Or, you know, our media center is open space and there's different furniture. And, you know, you struggle with custodian on whose furniture it was. Well, they're putting their feet on it. I go, it's theirs. Like, you know, that's their space. This is where they're comfortable learning. And it was transferring. Those teachers are like, wow. And they rose to those occasions, you know.

I've seen students who come to that school with behavioral records. And part of that culture is that this is your place, this is your space, and it's a safe space. And it's interesting, I was having a conversation last Friday with one of my teachers, last Thursday. She talked about the desk, how each kid doesn't own that desk. Remember how we had our desk and you had your name on it? Yeah, for sure. It's not my desk, it's our area.

And I can go work with other kids in another area and students who might not sit in that row traditionally can work together with other students in that respect and that safe place and that safe space that they need. You know, and allowing them that opportunity. And I think that's the other key, you know, is that setup that we've seen from non-traditional rows to collaboration and even with the technology of sharing through Google Chromebooks and Google Docs and things of that nature. Yeah. So can you expand on that more as a principal who has gone through that process and now to a principal who may be getting ready to open a new school or a totally different space and their staff is coming back right now or they're in the process and it's going to be in the next six to 12 months?

What are those lesson learns? would be that advice that you would give to them? Because they're going to have the same things. They're going to have the teachers that are going to be like, well, what do mean the student doesn't know the space? What do you mean that, you know, like I'm not upfront and, you know, and things aren't sitting in straight rows. What are those things that you would share with others? You know, I start with the why. That's when we opened the school, I got a book for the staff to go back to our why.

And, you know, and we had our individual, why are you teaching? Because I knew teachers were gonna struggle. knew just because you got the keys doesn't mean it's complete, right? Let's be honest, there's still gonna be work being done. And those can interfere and things out the air conditioning, right? It's just gonna get adjusted. And those are things that matter to teachers, you know, and all the pressure on teachers now. So really looking at the why and the student and then what can you do for the student? because everybody in education to help kids to work with kids and help kids be successful. I think that's the first piece is trying to build that collective vision. I started with the collective teacher efficacy has the biggest research effect size on student achievement, 1.36.

And coming together really looking at involving teachers in that process. then setting up some structures, you gotta have some structures, but don't be completely tied to them because you're going to get to know the environment and allow teachers to mess up, allow kids to mess up.

Kevin Stoller

Yeah, which we all know is the best way to learn, but we struggle. want to step in. Well, that's good. mean, are there, as somebody who values research and is constantly looking at that, what research do you wish would be done at this point? What would be really helpful for you, or what are the questions that you would wanna try to answer?

David Cupolo

You know, I talk to kids a lot and you know, it's one of the tough parts for researchers is doing research, talking to students, right? Because that's that big, you know, there's always those epic things in there and you know, I started with the check-in system with the company in Australia, Versha Learning. And one of the things I wanna know is what are you learning today? Ask kids, what are they learning? Yeah, you your kid at home, what'd you learn today? Nothing.

Or this, well, I know what you did, you know, but what are you really learning? And I found that, you know, students couldn't really articulate. And then teachers like, well, you talked to so-and-so, of course they couldn't tell you. Well, I don't know that that was the answer, you know. So we started looking at that. And one of the things we found is students were bored, but they also weren't clear about what their learning was. But they also wanted discussion. They wanted to talk to their parents and they wanted to collaborate.

You know, they were telling us what they wanted through that check-in. John Hattie actually, it's a quote that says on their site, it's the best classroom data I've ever seen. You know, and really I would love to learn more about students, what leads to thrill for them and how they experience that learning because it's not often. You know, go to watch schools when it gets out of high school practice, right?

Kids are practicing skills, they're acquiring skills, they're consolidating it, they're adding, they're learning, they're dispositions, persevering, and then there's that thrill. And we see in band when they get to perform in chorus, and very rarely do we get to see in those academic classrooms, but it can't exist, and that's what I've kind of studied. But I wanna know more from students of what can we do to help you, what can the environment do to help you? What do you need more of? We kind of know some of it, like I said, from that check-in. And it was, we want to be able to have more discussion. We want to be able to ask more questions. We want to be able to explore. We want to be able to collaborate. So those things, I would love to delve more into that research and study the environment they're in.

Kevin Stoller

Yeah. What does your gut tell you if you're going to have a hypothesis on that of saying, you know what I think this would work or this would be a benefit?

David Cupolo

I think those flexible environments and collaborative spaces where students feel safe and they feel valued and they have agency and when you give them opportunities for curiosity and connections to each other, I think that they're gonna say, that's what I want, that's what I need. And that's the world of today, honestly.

Unfortunately, as you see the research, you go through school and by the time you become a senior, you're very little engaged and it's scary. I know. And you can be like, we can all be engaged in something and it can be low level too, right? I've been engaged, but that's really tasks. I'm just completing a task. I'm not really into it, part of it's a curricular issue on the educator side. That's part of that stack curriculum. We got those tests and all of those things, and I'm not saying there's not some value there. But our learning is not going deep enough and we need to be able to transfer that learning.

Kevin Stoller (26:24.782) I think you're right. I mean, my experience would be the same that if I was going to say like, maybe there's not perfect research that shows it this way, but my gut and from what I've seen from being around this enough and just knowing kids and watching it, is.

Right, they do. They want the agency. They want to be able to collaborate. They want to work with their peers. They want to have meaningful projects. that, yeah, and that for me is always the hard part because I'm the one that wants to challenge the status quo and be like, well, if you know that, why don't we start doing that? Like, what's preventing us from doing that? And I get it. There are a lot of limitations of what we can do without having the data and without having, you know, like the laws and all the legal and all the things that are coming down from state level and district level. But my gut is with you on that too, is that if we actually listen to the kids, they know what they want.

David Cupolo

Yeah. they do. They do. And I was glad I had a professor said study thrill, nobody studied it, because that's tough to do a dissertation when there's no prior research you know, on that one topic. But I was, I really knew I was onto something there. So, you know, developing a framework for instructional leaders and how to, how can we work with teachers to increase learning thrill, you know, that's kind of still tweaking it. Because I believe it can be done even in the status quo, but we do have to push those understandings, you know, and trust kids.

Cause they don't respond right. You know, and they're to mess up. We all did. Yeah. And that's probably the best thing for him is to mess up. Right. I sat in the principal's office a couple of times in my life. It's nothing wrong with that.

Kevin Stoller (28:46.284)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so are you, so as far as like studying thrill, like, and do, so are you actively engaged in that? Like what? Cause I talk through like what your journey has been around this concept of thrill and education.

David Cupolo

So right now, know, finalizing my dissertation and kind of working with, again, virtual learning. Phil Stubbs is my thought partner. Shout out to Phil. He's with Virtual Learning. He's a brilliant mind, and kind of really fine tuning a framework for instructional leaders to kind of look at those things. Inductive learning. So what does the environment look like? Teacher authority. They've got to... to clarify Ed, that they're really tweaking right now that's coming out. And it's been a great journey that'll give teachers back time and make things more clear for students, but also look at a learning progression. So it's kind of like expert to Jedi, you know? So students can see this is where I need to head with my learning. And if I want to be a thrill and I want to be a transfer, this is where it's at. But then how could...

giving them the opportunity to say, is how I can show and meet success criteria. Instead of just answering questions on a test, show me how you can, this is the level, show me that you were at that level. And that was a neat piece. When kids could articulate with three points of what they were learning and where they were going, then they had 68 % more positive emotions responses, just in that one factor.

So I worked with my staff on that and we found, wow, the boredom, you when you look those wordles, bored got smaller and smaller and smaller and excited and enthusiastic, you know, and anxious reduced, you know, there wasn't that cognitive overload that kids feel. So there's a lot there that we're, you know, working on writing and getting out there, trying to share that message and do some presentations and

All those things.

Kevin Stoller

Yeah, very cool. Yeah. Well, that people need to hear it. Yeah. People need to be able to do that. So yeah, thank you for doing that work. I want to hear it before we wrap up here. I want to hear. The eight year journey into the new facility, what, what are the things that you have changed or like if you did it over again, you wish you, it would, the building would be different or the learning environment be different for those people who are going through it right now because that's obviously one of the big benefits of of education is we're so willing to share and help people so that the next project is always better for the first for the kids and the teachers in the future.

David Cupolo

So, you know, for me, it was interesting right now the struggle is furniture. So we have these, you know, funky shaped collaboration tables for kids can sit at and I've grouped teachers that would prefer those in their classroom than the desks that connect together, just basically the four desks that have cool little shapes that connect together. They want these tables. And I'm just, they say it's more functional, more space in my room to maneuver. It's still not their desk. It's our table in that mindset. That's something to look at, you know, because they really believe it's helped their classroom.

And I think just kind of look into the spaces and how do you use them and what structure do you provide kids for? It's for this use, know, using it understood that it's for learning, that it's not just, you know, hanging out. And kids did a great job with that, but that's just a little suggestion, you know, keep in mind, and this is our space for this and really having to understand this is where you apply yourself. This is where, you know, your collaborative place.

This is for your discussion. You know, because we didn't have that, you know, campfires was not a word when I came out, you know, we did cooperative learning structures. I think that's a great training to have Cagan cooperative learning structures because it really tightens up how to, so kids can't hide in those environments still, because that's another piece we don't want to, we don't, and I don't mean physically hide, but I do, you know, educationally hide. I was good at that.

I could sit in the back right corner last seat if I could and just, you know, kind of do my thing and then do what I needed to do, get out of class. But I think, you know, my best advice, have a plan, have a vision, have a group of people, your people who you believe will be the key people to really move that transition and look at the space. And I would love to visit schools and say, hey, this is your space. This is how it worked for us. This is how it didn't. This the space that was designed in the school that we don't use that I wish was something else, right? And that's the architecture side. When I was going through my Ed specialist degree, because I didn't understand how architects design schools. So part of my internship hours were with the architecture, because I want to know why did you do that? Why did you put this there? Then, know, look, those transitions, that's going to be an issue right here. Student transitions, that's, you you need to think about that because this crossway, cross paths, that's something else I would say, and look at your schedule and look at where kids are maneuvering based on the design.

We have, criss cross applesauce traffic, you know, and it can be kids and kids, you know, we don't necessarily want to apply it, but we just want, you know, get where you need to be hugging, go hug and go, hug and go, especially after COVID.

Kevin Stoller

Yeah. Yep. For sure. Yep. Yeah. And whether it is that way finding or something on the floors to help guide that traffic flow. Cool. Well, thanks for doing that. Thanks for sharing that. Anything else that I should be asking you that I haven't asked you about that you think would be useful for our audience?

David Cupolo

You know, I just think having educators and principals at the table, I don't know the conversation that had. It seems like it's getting better, but understanding pedagogy, understand research. I've presented in a couple of AFRL conferences and, you know, I enjoy it and was, you know, sharing the research and the pedagogy to understand this is how it's used in the classroom. This is how the teacher will use it. And this is why, and this is the research says this is effective. You know, I think that that knowledge would be beneficial. Okay. This is why we want students to discuss. This is why we want cooperative learning. This is the impact it has. You know, and one of the activities I do is I put up some of the effects, things that impact learning can be have a strong effect or very little. And it's always interesting that items that come up like homework, that very little impact, but we all hop on our kids about it. Like you got to tell them it really doesn't have impact, you know, unless it's really taking learn further, you know?

The things that are like, we've heard this research for so long and we know it, but man, I can tell you from like the parent experience, our schools are not learning that they keep sending the homework home and it's still like that nightly battle of, then I'm sitting here knowing this research that the homework really doesn't matter. I live it. Yeah. Yeah. I live into my house, you know, and now we know more about digitalized content and personalized learning, which is better. I think research will help tweak that homework. In fact, says a little bit more.

you know, because it's more meaningful to students if it's used the right way. They understand this is where you fill in your gap and this is how it's going to benefit you. But yeah, no, that's frustrating to know. We know the right stuff and we still struggle getting it in place. Yeah. Well, I just heard a story of Chick-fil-A how, and seems like recently they've dropped this, at least once by us, but they used to have, you knew if you went to a Chick-fil-A,

And they would say, may I serve you today? And you knew that was the way. And they ask them, how long did it take to get that idea, that simple line of having everyone ask about that? my pleasure. I think it was the end of it was when they say, pleasure. Instead of saying thank you or yeah, they'll say, my pleasure. How long did it take to get everyone in the organization to do that? Guess how long they said it took them?

Six years. Six years to get like everyone to just say that one my pleasure, like just to answer like, that my pleasure. And it's a reminder of like how long it takes to get even simple changes all the way through a system. And yeah, to so to do it, we may know the research, but man, it takes a little time, unfortunately, as much as we want to try to have that urgency to say like, Hey, this kid only goes through school one time. Let's try to it right for them.

Kevin Stoller (38:12.632) Well, that's, know, and for me, it's gentle constant pressure because compliance, you know, I'm one of those, the status quo doesn't always work for me.

David Cupolo

And, but that gentle constant pressure of what works, you know, hey, try this, try this, you know, it takes hold, but it takes time. You got to have that patience to realize, you know, and organizations go through those challenges, you know, and you kind of peak excitement and then dip down and then, all right, let's get back on track again, you know, but it does it. didn't think six years though. been my pleasure. That's a long time. Two words. right.

Kevin Stoller

Perfect. For the listeners, wherever you listen, just hit subscribe. We appreciate it. We also appreciate all of the feedback and the recommendations on either guests or topics. The hub for everything is betterlearningpodcast.com and on there we'll have show notes. We'll have links to David's information and he shared with an article. We'll link to the article too that he wrote here. So if you want any more information around this topic. But David, really appreciate the time. It great speaking with you.

Kevin Stoller (39:49.336)

Views and opinions expressed on the Better Learning Podcast are those of myself as an individual and my guests and do not necessarily represent the organizations that we work for, the Association for Learning Environments, K-12, Education Leaders Organization, or Second Class Foundation.

In the latest episode of the Better Learning Podcast, host Kevin Stoller dives into a thought-provoking discussion with experts Bruce Levine, Sean O'Donnell, and Heather Jauregui on the profound connection between education and design. The episode unpacks how collaboration between architects and educators can reshape school environments, positively influencing student outcomes and community engagement.

Takeaways:

• Education policy and design can significantly impact student outcomes.
• Collaboration between architects and educators is essential for effective school design.
• Indoor environmental quality (IEQ) plays a crucial role in student comfort and performance.
• Modernized schools positively influence community perception and engagement.
• Investment in school facilities is an investment in the future of communities.
• Research supports the connection between school design and educational outcomes.
• Schools should be designed to be inviting and supportive learning environments.
• Advocating for funding is critical to improving educational facilities.

Bruce Levine, J.D., from Drexel University, highlights the role of education policy and design in shaping the future of communities. Sean O'Donnell, of Perkins Eastman, sees schools as the heart of community life, advocating for the integration of civic architecture with sustainable, high-performing design. Heather Jauregui adds to the conversation with her passion for sustainability, emphasizing how the wellness of students and the planet are intertwined in the design of resilient schools.

The impact of modernized versus non-modernized schools, drawing from the Latrobe research study: https://perkinseastman.com/white-papers/addressing-a-multi-billion-dollar-challenge/

Sound Bites:

"My school experience is different than what I aspire to create."

"Schools are community assets."

Follow Bruce Levine on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bruce-a-levine-91667b6/

Follow Sean O'Donnell on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sean-odonnell-faia-leed-ap-perkinseastman/

Follow Heather Jauregui on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-jauregui-61929269/

Learn More About Perkins Eastman:

Website: https://www.mpsaz.org/

Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Find out more about Kevin at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinstoller/.

For more episodes of the Better Learning Podcast, visit https://www.betterlearningpodcast.com/

Episode 201 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/

Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website

In the milestone 200th episode of the Better Learning Podcast, special host Kevin Foote sits down with Dr. Andi Fourlis, superintendent of Mesa Public Schools, to dive into a conversation about innovation in education. As the leader of Arizona's largest school district, Dr. Fourlis shares her unique journey from classroom teacher to educational leadership and how her passion for teaching has shaped her vision for transforming student learning experiences.

The centerpiece of their discussion revolves around Mesa Public Schools' groundbreaking team teaching model, an approach designed to leverage shared expertise among educators. This model fosters a sense of belonging among students, enhances student engagement, and has proven effective in improving teacher retention—a growing challenge in education today. Dr. Fourlis and Kevin also explore the role of collaborative learning spaces and partnerships, particularly with Arizona State University, in making these educational innovations possible.

Takeaways:

• Team teaching allows for shared expertise among educators.
• Collaborative learning spaces enhance the team teaching experience.
• Personalized learning is essential for student engagement.
• Partnerships with universities can drive educational innovation.
• Redesigning working conditions is crucial to retain teachers.
• The future of education relies on collaboration and flexibility.

Andi Fourlis is the superintendent at Mesa Public Schools. Her career began in 1992 as a teacher in the Washington Elementary School District in Phoenix. She joined the Scottsdale Unified School District in 1996, where she spent 19 years as a teacher, director, executive director and assistant superintendent. In 2015 she joined the Arizona Science Center as the chief learning officer. In 2017, she joined Mesa Public Schools as the assistant superintendent of teaching and learning and later served as deputy superintendent.

Andi Fourlis has received numerous awards, including the Horace Mann Ruler of the Month Award in 2019, the Kathy Hunt-Ullock Award for Middle Level Advocacy in 2013, and Teacher of the Year Award at Royal Palm Middle School in 1994. She is a graduate of Valley Leadership Institute Class 38 (2017).

Sound Bites: "I never thought that I would ever leave my classroom." "Team teaching is when a group of adults share expertise."

Follow Dr. Andi Fourlis on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andi-fourlis-713994122/

Learn More About Mesa Public Schools:

Website: https://www.mpsaz.org/

Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Find out more about Kevin at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinstoller/.

For more episodes of the Better Learning Podcast, visit https://www.betterlearningpodcast.com/

Episode 200 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/

Want to be a Guest Speaker? Request on our website

Transcript

Kevin Stoller (00:01.288) Welcome back to the better learning podcast. My name is Kevin Stoller I'm the normal host of the show, but we have another Kevin Kevin foot who's gonna be stepping in and Leading the conversation with dr. Andy for lists She is the superintendent of Mesa Public Schools the largest district in Arizona and I'm bummed that I wasn't part of this conversation I was really looking forward to it. But as you listen to the episode they talk a lot about their team Teaching approach had they've been doing in conjunction with Arizona State University. So it's really fascinating. So listen in. I hope you learn a lot from this and here you get to hear Kevin Foote and Dr. Andy Forless.

Kevin Foote (00:46.85) Hello, how are you? Good, how are you? I'm a different Kevin.

Dr. Andi Fourlis

That is just grand, no troubles at all. So I'm Andy Forlund, Superintendent in Mesa Public Schools. I am an Arizona native. I began my educational career in Mesa Public Schools at Lowell Elementary. I'm starting kindergarten at Lowell. And I became a teacher because I loved to play school ever since I was a little girl.

I was trying to arrange and rearrange, whether it was stuffed animals, my brother, the neighborhood kids, I was always organizing them into some type of a classroom. And so I spent fond memories of being a toddler and then growing up always playing school.

I got super excited about going to kindergarten and I planned for my first day of kindergarten for a very long time from what I was going to wear to what my lunchbox was going to look like, what my backpack would look like and so on. So my mom took me to kindergarten and off I went and she picked me up at the end of the day. So excited to hear about, my gosh, Andi, how was your first day of school? You've been waiting this for so long. Well, I started crying. I pitched a fit in the car. I said it was the worst day of my life.

And I remember her face was just blank. Like, how could this be the worst day of your life? And mom, you did not tell me that I was not going to be the teacher today. So I went to school and I was four. I was turning five in December. I went to school to kindergarten as a fourth as a four year old. Yeah. I was going for one reason. That was to be the teacher.

I have had this idea that I was going to be a teacher because I always wanted to arrange people and things so that they can learn. And so as long as I can remember, I was always going to be a teacher in the back of my mind. Then I went to school, so I'll answer another one of the questions. So school for me was, it was a great place. I learned quickly. I had lots of questions. I kept thinking about how it could be different, how it should be different.

And as I went through school, I never raised my hand. And when people ask me, Andi, what do you want to be when you grow up? I never said a teacher. kept thinking, I don't want to do it like this. I want to do it differently. And it wasn't until I had the opportunity to take some college courses that like an introduction to education, I thought, OK, this is what I'm going to do with my life. I can't way that it currently is.

I don't have to live in the status quo. So I've always had one goal and I've always been in the service industry. I was a waitress all through high school and college to pay my way through college. And I realized that serving other people was something that I was good at and that it contributed to a better life for me and others.

Kevin Foote

I love it. I love it. Very, very similar backgrounds, you and I. I'm not going to get into mine, but very, very similar. I was one of those weird ones that always knew I wanted to be a teacher. So what got you into administration, whether it was principal or eventually now in superintendency, what was your guiding light for that?

Dr. Andi Fourlis

Well, I will tell you that I never thought that I would ever leave my classroom.

I taught third grade, sixth grade, seventh grade, and then eighth grade. And it was a sixth grade classroom that I had district leaders come into my classroom and ask me if I was interested in mentoring other teachers. And I said, sure, I've always mentored other teachers. They said, yeah, but this would be a full time job where you step out of your classroom and for maybe three years or so work in our new teacher induction model and bring in our new secondary teachers. And really get that complemented to strong instructional practices and so on.

I said, interesting. Okay, I could do that for a little bit. And then I never went back. So that was in 2000. And so here we are, 24 years later, I've not gone back into a classroom. I still have samples of student work that I'm ready to use someday. But I've back. So it was a tap on the shoulder to move into teacher leadership. And my journey has been through teacher leadership. I've never been a building principal or assistant principal.

My journey was being an instructional coach and then to a director of professional learning and a director of recruitment.

Kevin Foote

That's great. That's an interesting path. That's very unique compared to general superintendents. They've usually gone the principal path. So that's a very interesting path like that.

So I've done some research into it. I've actually...you know, we've designed some schools and stuff within the ASU model of the team teaching and everything. And I wanted you to talk some more about that. I was able to listen to another podcast you were on and I've just, I loved it. Loved it. I was like, guys, this is right. I love hearing about this.

Dr. Andi Fourlis

Okay. Yeah. So, you know, I would say like, I'm sorry to be redundant, but I know you probably love talking about it.

And this is a, you know, maybe a bigger, different audience. So, if this is, you know, maybe architects or designers or somebody maybe in my industry on that end could hear more about what the team teaching model is for, like, for me, I'm all about it I was in the classroom. Maybe somebody who's never really been in the classroom. What does that look like?

So when we think about our experiences in schools and being a one-on-one school is that people usually identify by saying, well, this was my third grade teacher. Well, my fifth grade teacher had the most impact on me. My seventh grade English teacher had an impact on me. That is the typical experience that most students have in American public school system.

When we think about team teaching is when you start students start to identify this is the team of teachers that I am working with and it is beyond the one teacher one classroom model. Then the majority of my career I had the great benefit of working on a team. I was not just one teacher trying to serve all of my children. I was always on a team. I started in third grade and that was a team taught class and I did my teaching and then taught there.

And then I moved into, there was a couple of years at the very beginning that I was a one teacher in one classroom. And I was a middle school team. And then when I moved to the Scottsdale Unified School District, I was also in a three person team, sharing a roster of 150 students. And we were co-designing deeper and more personalized learning. Those are all fancy words I have now, but I would have never been able to use.

1896 is when I started this work. School teaching is when there are a group of adults, teachers sharing their expertise to co-design instruction for a common roster of children that they serve. So, the public schools, our definition of a team is at least two teachers sharing a roster of students designing learning outcomes for them.

Kevin Foote

Awesome. Now, just piggybacking on that, are there...How rare is this in Arizona? Are there other districts that are doing this? Did you get the model from, I know ASU, Arizona State's kind of guiding it, but did you get to see any other districts in action that are doing this?

Dr. Andi Fourlis

So yeah, there are other districts that are implementing team teaching. And like I said, my own career, I started in 1991 and thinking about what we knew about middle school, adolescent design.

It was, middle schools were based on teams of teachers bringing their academic knowledge, working with other teachers to serve children. So this is not a model that's new at all. In fact, team teaching, we can go back into our history books and look at even our former superintendent, Dr. Jim Saharis talking about team teaching in the 1970s. So this is not a new concept. What's new about team teaching today, is that we are using it in an environment of high levels of accountability. Because I believe that we started moving to the one teacher one classroom under the era of No Child Left Behind.

No Child Left Behind talked about things like the highly qualified teacher, the appropriately certified teacher. And when it started breaking down classrooms by certification of who was highly certified to teach these students, and we had such a focus on that that we really aligned one teacher to typically a class of 25 to 30 students. And so No Child Left Behind came in with high levels of accountability to the teacher. And so team teaching, any type of collaboration, I believe, started to fall to the wayside.

Kevin Foote

Yeah. OK. And I love what you talked about there where it's taken it from that middle school model or the junior high model where that's essentially what you're doing. And why can't we do top down with that? I love that. It's so important to talk about when we talk about the next education workforce teaming model, it is more than just a team of teachers. When we're truly talking about teaming, we are opening up learning opportunities for students by bringing in community partners, by community educators, rethinking the role of an instructional assistant.

Even in today's world, here we are in 2024, rethinking the role of technology on a team. What role does this piece of technology play in integrating into the learning needs of students?

Dr. Andi Fourlis

So it's taking all of your resources and arranging for learning for students and it is beyond the scope of just the certified teachers in that classroom. It's wrapping adults around the needs of children.

Kevin Foote

Yes. I love that. And you you could see creating a strong workforce that knows how to work with, let's say, different types of bosses and all the varying learning styles and teaching styles that go along with, you know, I'm sure somebody in their career at some point were like, there's a boss that I just didn't work well with or I really like working for him or her and things like that. So I think this is a good start to that to get them to understand it at a young age.

How do you function within, how does this team teaching model function within like the learning environment, like the actual spaces? Can you explain how Mesa's done it or if you've seen another district, like how do they make it work with if you do have a space that's been designed and furnished for that and everything, and then a space that's not, how do they make that work? I'd love to hear both sides of it.

Dr. Andi Fourlis

So collaborative learning spaces are very important for teaming. And I will tell you that we have intentionally designed spaces for collaboration for teaming in Mesa Public Schools. And we also have teaming that is alive and well their physical design is not super conducive, but they make it work.

So I'll give you another example. At Westwood High School, all ninth and 10th graders are on teams, and those are bigger kids, and they need bigger spaces. And so we have some potentially designed space where walls have come down. They've got movable chalkboards, whiteboards throughout the room.

So kids are working on different projects. They're in and out of this collaborative space. At Stevenson Elementary, every child is on a team and they are beginning in first grade as a multi-grade team. And so the doors between classrooms are able to be opened. They look just like they're very large doors with the glass in between them and they- Storefront, if you will.

So students are moving from classroom to classroom within a pod. never walk outside. They are all inside the building between classes. We have others that students have to walk outside to the classroom next door. So there's lots of different ways. And but what is most important is not that we're just moving kids, but what is the purpose and the intent behind the movement? And that needs to be artfully designed.

We are moving kids around to get what they need to improve their learning outcome. So sometimes they need additional English language arts time. Sometimes they need more mathematics time. Sometimes they're going into innovation space because they're working in a project. And so they, at Stevenson Elementary, all students set their own intentions and learning targets for the day and then monitor those and then build their schedule with the guidance of the adults around what their game will look like. And so they have to be able to move.

Kevin Foote

Okay, I love that.

Dr. Andi Fourlis

That's one very last thing, have to be able to move. I love getting them up and moving. I'd also like to add that it's really important for our teams to build a community of learners. And so when the majority of our teaming models, at the beginning of the day, the entire grade level or grade bands at three, four, for example, at Stevenson, they meet in the morning for what they call family time. They all come together. Other schools, it might just be the entire third grade. They come together in the morning and they check the health and wellness of the community. That's what they do, but then they move on. At Stevenson, we have larger groups of children.

So another added feature is that we have audio enhancement. So all of the teachers use microphones and they're in the classroom. And that's been a modification so that all children can learn even in a large space.

Kevin Foote

That's great. I love that. I love that. what successes have you seen? And again, this is kind of like a two-part. What successes have you seen academically as well as socially? Because there's so many I want to hear from you firsthand. What successes have you seen in both those aspects?

Dr. Andi Fourlis

So we have what our strongest indicators are around students have a sense of belonging. So they know where they belong, have an identity and they have more than one adult that they can connect with every single day. So while you might be assigned to Mrs. Smith and in third grade and teacher one classroom model, you and Mrs. Smith may not see eye to eye on things.

And so in our teaming model, students have a lot of opportunity to connect with the expertise of multiple adults, including their teachers. So there's higher level of sense of belonging and confidence amongst our students that are in teams.

The other is that what we're paying attention to building their confidence and efficacy for how they can be self-directed learners, those early on indicators are that they're feeling more confident. And being self-directed, when we take a look at our teachers, their retention rates are higher and their job satisfaction is higher in the team. Because it's always nice to know that we're in this together, right? I don't just go in and say, 28 students and me, let's go do this. We're all in this together. And it's a lot of co-planning and it's using expertise. We have teachers that have a background and are really great in math instruction. They take the lead on planning and designing mathematics lessons and design. The same reading specialist on a team taking the lead for that particular team. So they're sharing their expertise. And we often see that if a teacher is going to be out, need the substitute for a doctor's appointment or something on a team, oftentimes they don't even get a substitute or the substance provides just, you know, like supervision and support so the kids don't miss a beat.

So we're also seeing learning outcomes are increasing. They've been paying attention to reading. So they are outpacing their peers in literacy development. And in our high schools, we're paying attention to Algebra 1 for our ninth grade. And we're seeing that students on teams are outperforming our students who are not on teams in Algebra 1.

Kevin Foote (18:50.83)

Love it. Awesome. Something that I heard you say in a previous quote you made was that you're looking to create more personalized learning. And that's like the one thing that jumped out at me because I remember when I was in the classroom, that was always my goal is for all, know, sometimes I had 32 third graders or whatever, know, but that was a big class, but, you 25 to 30 kids, try to know something about all of them, like what makes each of them tick and feel like having that team teaching models makes that so much easier.

You started teaching a little before me, like differentiated learning was the buzzword at the time. And so when I heard you say personalized, I'm like, I think that goes a little further. I love to hear that. So I don't if you want to elaborate on that a little much. That's just something I wanted to say. I thought it was pretty awesome.

Dr. Andi Fourlis

We know the research around differentiated instruction that we differentiate by process product, right? And for learning, but within our kids are so different and we have an incredibly diverse community. So we need to make sure that not only is it differentiated, that instruction is differentiated, but it is also personalized where we are building, students have agency that they are building the what's in it for them in their learning.

That takes it a little bit deeper than differentiation, because usually you differentiate for groups of kids. You look at personalization... it's a sliver of the solid research on why we differentiate. But this is saying that kids are setting their own goals. They're mastering their own goals. Elementary is very foundational. And English language arts, mathematics, and science, and social science. When we get into high school, that also looks at what is their career and college path that is personalized to them. It's not just the typical subject areas. It's like, no, I am on a path. I know that I want to pursue a degree in engineering. So my path is going to be different and I need to be engaged in an agent of my own learning towards that pathway.

Kevin Foote

I think it's a perfect piggyback on the next thing. what's something you think that, or a couple of things that Arizona State's helped with? How do you think we can help work with future teachers on this, specifically college of ed students at our major universities, things like that? Are there some tips you'd have for them? And then also how is Arizona State help with that?

Dr. Andi Fourlis

Well, what has been so helpful for us in our partnership with Arizona State University is the way that I think about our relationship is that ASU is the innovative university, a research-run university, and we are the laboratory to try those ideas, collect information, talk about what's working with boots on the ground and how they're constantly working together to make adaptations based on research and then based on implementation. And so to me, that's perfect model.

The other is that Arizona State University is keeping this conversation alive beyond Mesa Public Schools.

We have a crisis across the nation and the crisis of the teacher shortage. That's one long as I mentioned that I left my classroom in 2000 to be a new teacher induction specialist to help induct new teachers and then go out and recruit new teachers. So we've been at this for 24 years that we've been trying to solve a teacher. I think it's time that we're done admiring this problem and really digging down into why are teachers not choosing teaching?

And especially in 2024, it's because the teaching job is incredibly isolating and it's inflexible. So if we can build some collaboration and flexibility into the teaching profession, that is one step closer to solving the teacher shortage problem. A phrase that I say, oftentimes, if teachers are not leaving the profession, they're leaving their working conditions. And working conditions is something that we can control. And so let's control what we can control and let's redesign those working conditions. And my belief is that if we do that, the theory of action is that we will chip away at the teacher shortage.

Kevin Foote (23:38.798)

Awesome. I think that I have one more question, but you just answered it was how can people who are gonna hear this podcast help? And what are recommendations on what others do? But I feel like you nailed it in the head before I even got there.

Dr. Andi Fourlis

And I think the other thing is that what can ASU do with those that are choosing the teaching profession? Designing their instruction and the experiences that free service teachers have. If free service teachers are coming in and working and learning in isolation. That doesn't set them up for success when they come into our school district with teaming model. So what I really appreciate around our relationship is Dr. Basile and I are constantly calibrating. What are we doing in classrooms in Mesa Public Schools? And how does that trigger pre-service learning and vice versa?

Kevin Foote

Nice. I love it. love it. Well, thank you for your time today. I don't want to keep you too much longer.

I think we'll just go ahead and wrap up here and thank you again for all you do. And that's a big job with the biggest district in Arizona. So appreciate your time.

Dr. Andi Fourlis

The joy every day. We have so much opportunity to preserve the teaching profession and to create great outcomes.

Kevin Foote

Awesome. Thank you.

Kevin Stoller (25:09.986) The views and opinions expressed on the Better Learning Podcast are those of myself as an individual and my guests and do not necessarily represent the organizations that we work for, the Association for Learning Environments, K-12, Education Leaders Organization, or Second Class Foundation.

In this insightful episode of the Better Learning Podcast, host Kevin Stoller welcomes Emmy Beeson and Jennifer Fuller to discuss the vital connection between school design and educational success. The conversation dives into the challenges schools face as they strive to innovate, as well as the pivotal role architects play in supporting educational missions. Together, they emphasize the importance of collaboration between educators, architects, and communities to create learning environments that truly enhance student engagement and foster creativity.

The episode sheds light on how architecture can—and should—support a school's curriculum and mission, with both Beeson and Fuller sharing their perspectives on aligning design with educational goals. They also highlight the significance of involving the entire school community in the design process, ensuring that spaces reflect the needs of students and educators alike.

Takeaways:

• The goal is to provide every child with the best opportunity to succeed.
• Personal experiences in education shape future leaders.
• Rethinking school design is crucial for educational transformation.
• Shared vision is essential for successful facility planning.
• Community engagement is vital for educational success.
• Facilities should reflect the desired student experience.
• Leadership stability is important for long-term change.

Emmy supports district leaders to develop a shared vision, build capacity toward that vision, and align communication and decision making to the shared vision. She also guides district leaders on long-term implementation and systems sustainability, including succession planning. Emmy brings more than 20 years of educational experience, having served as superintendent at Ridgemont Local Schools and Tolles Career & Technical Center. She has truly lived the work she now brings to school districts around the country, offering a first-hand understanding of everyday challenges faced by leadership.

Jennifer Fuller is a principal at Fanning Howey, an architecture, interiors and engineering firm specializing in the design of learning environments. As an architect, Jenn has the drive to take on the biggest jobs and the leadership skills to help everyone perform at their highest level. Jenn's clients love how she blends her own thought leadership with a listen-first approach to planning, engagement and design.

Sound Bites: "We want every kid to have the best opportunity." "I watched teachers come back to life."

Follow Jennifer on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-holdren-fuller-19a6599/

Learn More About Fanning Howey:

Website: https://fhai.com/

Follow Emmy on Social Media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmy-beeson-61095127/

Learn More About Partnerships For All:

Website: https://www.partnershipsforall.org/

Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Find out more about Kevin at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinstoller/.

For more episodes of the Better Learning Podcast, visit https://www.betterlearningpodcast.com/

Episode 199 of the Better Learning Podcast

Kevin Stoller is the host of the Better Learning Podcast and Co-Founder of Kay-Twelve, a national leader for educational furniture. Learn more about creating better learning environments at www.Kay-Twelve.com.

For more information on our partners:

Association for Learning Environments (A4LE) - https://www.a4le.org/

Education Leaders' Organization - https://www.ed-leaders.org/

Second Class Foundation - https://secondclassfoundation.org/

Kay-Twelve - https://www.kay-twelve.com/

EDmarket - https://www.edmarket.org/

Catapult @ Penn GSE - https://catapult.gse.upenn.edu/