Between Heaven & Earth

Show Notes

Justin and Amy Howard continue their ancient-future conversation on confession, turning to what it means for the formation of leaders. Drawing on Amy's Doctor of Ministry interviews with clergy across many traditions, they name a striking pattern: most pastors were never meaningfully confessed before they were ordained, and were never taught how to receive another's confession. With warmth and candor, they explore the loneliness and bondage this costs leaders and their churches, and they cast a hope-filled vision for a Christianity where it is safe to be known, healed, and set free. This is an invitation to trade survival for encounter, and to begin living a confessional life.

In This Episode

• Repentance has been preserved as an idea in much of the Protestant world, but confession as a shared practice has largely been lost, reducing sin to moral bookkeeping.
• Amy's clergy interviews reveal that most leaders never confessed aloud before ordination and were never trained in seminary to give or receive confession.
• Because seminary is often the final threshold of formation, ordination can be reduced to a degree, references, a psych eval, and a background check rather than genuine self-knowledge and healing.
• Unconfessed leaders are frequently destined for exile and abject loneliness, with a paycheck tied to their silence until a collapse forces the truth into the open.
• A 'first-step narrative' that traces the grace and pain of one's whole life could become a normal part of preparing people for baptism, confirmation, and ordination.
• Encounter, EncounterLife groups, spiritual direction, and the Trinitas formation program are offered as practical on-ramps to a lifestyle of knowing and being known.
• The goal is not merely admitting sin but confessing it, being met by grace, led into truth, renouncing what holds us, and being restored so our testimony carries authority to set others free.

Find Going Deeper questions and more resources at https://www.encounterculturene.com/podcast/40.

Summary

In this episode of Between Heaven and Earth, Justin Howard and Amy Howard explore the role of confession in the formation of Christian leaders and the health of the church. Drawing from Amy’s doctoral research interviews with pastors and clergy, they uncover a striking pattern: many leaders have never been taught how to confess, live transparently, or process their pain before entering ministry.

The conversation examines how the absence of confessional culture creates isolation, hidden bondage, and emotionally fragmented leadership. Justin and Amy challenge churches to rethink how pastors are formed—not simply through academics and theology, but through healing, spiritual direction, vulnerability, and authentic community. They also share how Encounter Life groups and spiritual direction are helping cultivate spaces where leaders and believers alike can safely know and be known.

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Summary

In this episode of Between Heaven and Earth, Justin Howard and Amy Howard discuss confession as a powerful pathway to healing, freedom, and restoration. They challenge the idea that confession is only private or “Catholic,” introducing “directed confession” as a biblical practice of bringing hidden sin, shame, and trauma into the light within safe Christian community.

Drawing from personal stories, Scripture, and pastoral experience, they explain how secrecy fuels isolation while honest confession creates space for healing and encounter with the Holy Spirit. The episode also explores the church’s need for healthier cultures of honesty, accountability, and restoration for both leaders and everyday believers.

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In this episode of Between Heaven and Earth, Justin and Amy Howard talk with Matt Schneider, a former Anglican priest turned missionary in Springfield, Massachusetts. Matt shares his journey from traditional ministry to launching a grassroots disciple-making movement in a highly post-Christian context. He critiques the North American church model as overly centralized and ineffective at producing true disciples, placing unrealistic expectations on pastors while fostering passivity among congregants.

Matt advocates for a return to a New Testament model of shared leadership through the fivefold ministry and emphasizes equipping everyday believers to actively participate in disciple-making. He highlights the importance of relational discipleship, Scripture engagement, and community-based spiritual growth over program-driven church structures. Addressing concerns about decentralization, he argues that empowered, Scripture-rooted communities are better positioned to guard against false teaching than rigid institutional systems.

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Additional Reflections

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Conclusion

The Celtic Way of Evangelism

BELAY Affiliate Link

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🔍 Joining God at Work: Missional living begins with attentiveness to where God is already moving rather than creating activity for Him.

❤️ Presence Over Presentation: Hospitality is about making room for people as they are, embracing vulnerability and limits.

🌿 Small, Faithful Practice: Hospitality grows through simple, repeated acts of welcome that anyone can offer.

🕊️ The Sacred Table: Everyday meals carry theological meaning as signs of God’s coming kingdom.

Conclusion

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The “Between Heaven and Earth” podcast with Justin and Amy Howard examines church leadership and challenges the modern expectation that pastors do everything. They introduce spiritual formation practices and Encounter Life cohorts that help believers grow in their relationship with God.

The episode reframes “pastor” as a function within the fivefold ministry rather than a title, advocating for shared leadership among elders and deacons. It addresses burnout caused by unrealistic demands and calls the church to move from consumerism to active discipleship, equipping all believers to participate in God’s kingdom work.

The Tampa Underground 

The Kansas City Underground

The Underground Network

Book Resource

The Starfish and the Spirit

Five-Fold Ministry (Ephesians 4)

5Q | Alan Hirsch