00:00.47

Sam Shirazi

Hi everyone. I'm Sam Shirazi and this is Federal Fallout the 2025 Virginia elections. There is now an American Pope and I'm interviewing the Pope of Virginia politics. That's Michael Lee Pope. He is a reporter and host of another great Virginia politics podcast, the Virginia Press Room.

00:19.25

Sam Shirazi

Definitely check that one out too. That's usually comes out Monday mornings. I am listening to it on my Monday morning commute into work. So definitely check out that podcast along with Federal Fallout.

00:31.33

Sam Shirazi

And prior to hosting the Virginia Press Room, he was the host of Pod Virginia, where he was gracious gracious enough to have me as a guest several times. And now I get to be on the other side of the mic. So thank you for joining me today.

00:47.92

Michael Pope

Sam Shirazi, longtime listener, first time guest. I love your podcast. You're really knocking it out of the park here, so keep it up. i so I noticed that when you have guests on, it's more of a forensic audit of their background, so I'm a little bit nervous to be on your podcast, so don't stump me with difficult questions. But yeah,

01:09.74

Michael Pope

You know, I was actually looking at some stats. I think you've done more episodes than the press room so far. So congratulations for knocking it out of the park here and launching Federal Fallout.

01:21.40

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, thanks so much. I'm very appreciative. I mean, I was inspired to do the podcasting thing, partly, you know, my experience on PodVirginia, and I thought it'd be interesting to do one about the 2025 Virginia election. So that's why I started mine. And i I will talk a little bit about podcasting. I do think there's one thing you could probably teach me about podcasting, though.

01:40.60

Sam Shirazi

Can you guess who it is?

01:40.75

Michael Pope

Yeah, yeah, totally. There is, Sam Shirazi. You know this because I've already given you a hard time about it before we hit the record button, and I'm going to continue giving you a hard time about it. What's with the music? There's no music.

01:52.47

Michael Pope

The show just begins with you talking. You need – put some music there, a bumper. Something's got to go there. In fact, I'll tell you what. Your Zencaster account came with some funny stuff like – I think there's a comic rimshot in there.

02:08.49

Michael Pope

there's also a music bed. ah Go ahead and crank up that music bed there on Zencaster.

02:13.03

Sam Shirazi

about this one?

02:15.36

Michael Pope

That's a good one. That's a good one. You could hit that and then talk about how you're going to knock it out of the park, hit a home run in terms of every podcast is a home run when you listen to Federal Fallout. No, I was talking about the music, the button that has the really depressing music.

02:32.52

Sam Shirazi

Oh, yeah, that that could be intro.

02:35.31

Michael Pope

There we go. This is perfect. All right. Welcome, federal follow-up.

02:40.31

Sam Shirazi

All right. i I know. I know. I got to get intro music. I kind of like just starting off getting cutting the chase, but I know everyone wants the podcast intro music. But...

02:49.01

Michael Pope

or Or alternatively, you could have something really newsy. Something like that.

02:57.68

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, I like that. That's that's definitely catchy. Well, I mean, I appreciate you teaching me the finer points of podcasting. so I did want to, i guess, my first question start with kind of podcasting in general, both in terms of people getting political news through podcasts, which obviously we've seen an uptick in, and you've been doing this for several years, going back to PodVirginia.

03:21.09

Sam Shirazi

mean, what made you interested in podcasts and how do you think that these these podcasts are starting to influence politics?

03:29.41

Michael Pope

It's essentially radio that's been kind of repackaged and rebranded. You know, I am a big fan of radio. I work in radio as my day job. I'm also kind of interested in the history of radio, the history of broadcasting. So it does kind of feel like we're at a moment right now where we're reinventing radio and it's in the form of a podcast and people love podcasts.

03:52.54

Michael Pope

Sam Shirazi, what podcast do you listen to?

03:54.94

Sam Shirazi

Well, obviously, I listen to the Virginia Press Room. That is my go-to.

03:58.19

Michael Pope

Okay. All right. Of course. All right. Thank you.

04:00.56

Sam Shirazi

I mean, honestly, I like to listen to news podcasts.

04:00.84

Michael Pope

Thank you for listening.

04:04.63

Sam Shirazi

I listen to different ones. I don't want to endorse any specific ones. But, I mean, I do think... I'm more of audio learner. And I do think for people who are more audio oriented, I do think it's a really good way to absorb news. And you mentioned radio. And I think that's a good point, because it used to be that there was talk radio and that was really big. And that kind of led a lot of the political discourse. Do you think podcasts are kind of now doing what talk radio did maybe in the ninety s

04:35.91

Michael Pope

That's a good question. i mean, talk radio was very influential in the 1990s. That's when we saw the rise of Rush Limbaugh as a political force. And it does kind of feel like podcasting is is a modern incarnation of that sort of talk radio thing that happened in the nineteen ninety s Yeah, i could I could buy that.

04:54.13

Michael Pope

I actually, i mean, because of it feels so new as a medium, I feel like the the better analog, the better thing to compare it to would be the original creation of radio in the sort of the early days of of broadcasting in the 1920s when they were trying to figure out how much of this is showbiz and how much of this is news.

05:14.32

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, I definitely think there's an entertainment component to to podcasts, which is more hearkening back to the beginning of the radio. So yeah, a lot of interesting things with podcasts. And I think hopefully people have enjoyed my podcast. I know that they enjoy your podcast. And anyways, so I encourage everyone to keep listening.

05:32.30

Sam Shirazi

I did want to kind of ask about being a journalist. You know, you're you're on on the radio, but i i one thing that I appreciate about you is you try to be kind of an old school straight news reporter and and try to be as objective as possible. And I won't name any names, but I do think there are journalists out there today or people claiming to be journalists who definitely have a political agenda.

05:54.23

Sam Shirazi

mean, what is it like being a journalist in the current environment and trying to kind of keep the old school way of doing journalism alive in a world where, you know, a lot of the the current journalists are not necessarily trying to report things accurately?

06:07.97

Michael Pope

In a world where standards are falling apart. Yeah, you actually set it up like it's a horror movie there. Thanks for knocking my industry. I mean, it's difficult. It's difficult being in the journalism industry. I will say that in recent years, we have seen an expansion of the Virginia Price Corps. So, you know, when I first started doing political reporting, the big...

06:28.71

Michael Pope

worry at that time was the shrinking press corps. And there were fewer people covering the statehouse at that time than there had been in previous cycles. You know, like the Richmond Times dispatch used to have five people and, you know, the local television stations would have a team of people. And there were, then there were the wire services and the the big papers of course would send correspondence. And there,

06:53.52

Michael Pope

you know, there was a time when it contracted much smaller than that. But in recent years, we have seen new new positions show up. You know, like I will say for a good example of this is the Virginia Mercury.

07:07.29

Michael Pope

And they have a lot of top-notch reporters there at the Virginia Mercury cranking out great journalism all the time. And for each one of those individual journalists, that's like a new position in the press corps.

07:19.75

Michael Pope

So we have seen in recent years, in addition to the press corps, based based on new media. You know, I mean, this is, i'm I'm a legacy newspaper person, legacy media in terms of NPR being, you know, legacy terrestrial radio.

07:39.24

Michael Pope

But I'm a big fan of this, ah all this new media stuff, like like the podcast that you're doing, Sam Shirazi.

07:44.91

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, no, I mean, that that's good to hear. I mean, I do think there's definitely a lot of pessimism about the journalism industry, but I do think you make a good point that there there were new outlets and also people, I mean, I don't consider myself a journalist. I consider myself more of a political analyst, which is a little bit different.

08:01.43

Sam Shirazi

But I mean, I try to share news. i definitely use the reporters from the different sources in Virginia to kind of base my analysis on. And so I do appreciate that there's still people out there putting out news into the world, whether they're doing it through official journalism organization or just on their own.

08:20.44

Sam Shirazi

mean, what do you think about the the really legacy media outlets? So I will say in Virginia, typically the the ones that had gotten a lot of attention in the past are the Washington Post and Richmond Times-Dispatch. Those have both fallen on hard times, I would say. And do you think you know that has...

08:36.32

Sam Shirazi

led to a change in how politics is covered in Virginia? Or do you just think that's kind of a newer people are coming and and the coverage is still there?

08:45.44

Michael Pope

Well, you mentioned legacy newspapers, ah newspapers, ah two in particular there, the Richmond Times-Dispatch and the Washington Post. I will point out there is a paper in Virginia that's even older than the Washington Post, even older than the Richmond Times-Dispatch, and that's the Alexandria Gazette packet right here in old town, Alexandria founded in 1784, one of the oldest newspapers in America. And so, you know, because Virginia is as old as it is, legacy media is really legacy.

09:16.97

Michael Pope

and those papers, Still have people. the The Washington Post has a team of great reporters in the statehouse doing statehouse reporting. The Richmond Times-Dispatch has a team of reporters in the statehouse and elsewhere doing lots of great reporting. Even now, people talk about, oh, the RTD is falling apart. What's the premise of your question? i dispute the premise of the question because I think they're still cranking out really good journalism right now at this moment.

09:44.88

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I often look at those articles and from The Washington Post, so I'm not trying to to downplay the role. I just think it's it's interesting because, you know, the the profitability of newspapers and and old school journalism has definitely gone gone down. And I think the model is shifting a little bit.

10:02.43

Sam Shirazi

But overall, I mean, i think you make a good point that we should try to still appreciate what's being put out there. There is people working hard, putting out good journalism. And I don't mean to say that things are doom and gloom, but that's often the narrative you hear. So I appreciate you kind of, you know, giving a different perspective, especially as as a current journalist.

10:22.17

Michael Pope

dirt doom Doom and gloom is kind of what it feels like. That is the zeitgeist. However, we are in a golden age of media right now. There is more good reporting going on right now than at any time in human history, right?

10:39.57

Michael Pope

There's also... a record amount of really bad journalism. I mean, horrible, terrible journalism. So, I mean, there's it's just a scale thing. There's a lot of really great reporting that's going on right now. There's also a lot of really terrible, terrible, terrible reporting that's going on right now. that So that's why I say it's the golden age of media. there's There's way more really good reporting going on right now than at any time that than there's ever been since the inventing of the printing press.

11:07.38

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely all very valid points and it's it's good to keep in mind. Well, I did want to ask you about what it's like reporting this year in Virginia and what's specifically on the elections. I mean, what are you seeing and what are you hearing on the ground as a reporter?

11:23.51

Michael Pope

Well, I personally think it's kind of a bummer not having primary elections. You know, I mean, we've got the Democrats and the Republican at the top of the ticket who are running for governor have zero primary opponents. And they're both just, um you know,

11:40.99

Michael Pope

sliding into the general election season without really getting the kind of cross-examination that you typically get in a primary election. i think that's historically been a detriment to candidates. I mean, if you think about the failure of the Kamala Harris campaign, she did not have a primary and she would have been a much stronger candidate in the fall had she gone through but kind of forensic audit that you get on the campaign trail when you are elected in a primary and then go on to a general.

12:10.11

Michael Pope

So think that's, i you know, i I wish there were more of a sense of competition at the top of the ticket instead of just having these two people show up and be their party standard bearers.

12:23.67

Michael Pope

So that's the top of the ticket. And then, gosh, it's all kind of boring after that, right? I mean, the lieutenant governor race, no one ever pays attention to the lieutenant governor. Oh, wait a second. Actually, it sounds like we've been paying a lot of attention to one them.

12:36.62

Michael Pope

What the Lieutenant at Governor raises. In fact, you did like a special emergency extra podcast or two about this topic, right?

12:43.86

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, i I mean, I did want to ask you about the Republican lieutenant governor primary that never happened. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously with John Reed, he became the Republican nominee. I did an emergency podcast when he became the nominee. And then there was an emergency podcast when Governor Youngkin asked him to drop out. And I did have a specific question about that. i mean, what it's like being a journalist when a story like that comes out, because I am trying to cover it as well. And I'm trying to be fair in the sense of, you know, John Reed denied it. and you know, Governor, but at the same time, I mean, you would think there's a ah reason Governor Youngkin would call him. and And so what was it like being a journalist trying to figure out the facts when something like that is breaking really quickly?

13:25.78

Michael Pope

Well, I actually am going to give a shout out to my colleague and friend, be Brad Kuttner at Radio IQ, because he was the one that was actually following the day-to-day events. and In fact, I would even say hour-to-hour, minute-to-minute events of that fast-developing story. So Brad Kuttner of Radio IQ is Was definitely following that in a very detailed way. I will say, you know, standing back and looking at the bigger picture, it's so rare that you see parties turn the gun, or you know, turn the firing squad around and start firing on on their own headquarters.

14:03.71

Michael Pope

being like, don't they want to win in the fall? But instead of coming together to support the this candidate for a lieutenant governor, there was this effort to unseat him and there would then there would be a vacancy and then you could install somebody else as the candidate. And i mean, it just seemed like there was a lot of smoke and daggers, you know what I'm saying?

14:27.24

Michael Pope

it um um a lot of the dark art of politics, that sort of thing. And so at the end of the day, they've got a candidate that is now, you know, facing opposition from their own party. um And I'm kind of curious what the visuals are going to be when you've got...

14:46.55

Michael Pope

the Republican candidate for governor went to Earl Sears on the stage with John Reed and on the stage with Jason Miarez.

14:57.71

Michael Pope

What that's going to look like, what the body language is going to be like, what the sort of interpersonal dialogue between them is going to be. i don't know. It just kind of seems like they short circuited their candidacy even before they got to the summer.

15:12.99

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, I mean, it was definitely a crazy week and I'm sure that, you know, the Virginia GOP has kind of accepted the John Ridley nominee and want to move on. But it's going to be kind of awkward as the campaign goes on. And and are they even going to have these?

15:27.16

Sam Shirazi

Typically, you see the the ticket once it's finalized, have these, you know, joint appearances. And it's really unclear if that's going to happen this year in Virginia. So anyways, I'm sure I'm sure you will cover it along with your colleagues. And I think it's going to be an interesting campaign this year.

15:42.59

Sam Shirazi

I did want to ask you a little bit on a different topic because I think one thing I've always appreciated about your work is you bring kind of a historical perspective to things.

15:54.13

Sam Shirazi

And before I ask you a specific question about that, I just kind of wanted you to talk about you know your interest in history and also how you think History intersects with journalism in the sense of, you know, often you don't see a lot of history in journalism, but I do think when journalists include historical analogies or kind of historical background to a story, it it often makes the story much more meaningful.

16:17.96

Michael Pope

Sure, yeah, I definitely tried to do that with a lot of my reporting. i mean, I know that you've one of the things that you are hoping to talk about in this podcast is the right-to-work law in Virginia. So the historical roots of that are, you know, the bird machine, which I've spent a lot of time researching and writing and speaking about.

16:37.45

Michael Pope

And so, I mean, one I guess in response to your question, I would say when I first started doing political journalism, when I first moved to Virginia, I would hear people talk about the bird machine as an explanation for things. Right. So like this is the reason why we do things this way is because of the bird machine. And the reason why we do things that way is because of the bird machine.

16:57.86

Michael Pope

And then after the 11th, 12th, 13th time somebody said that, I said to myself, I probably should know something about the bird machine. And so I kind of wanted to work on that project for a long time before I ended up getting the contract to write the book. And so that's,

17:12.77

Michael Pope

that's A roundabout way of answering your question is that history is always lurking in the background of everything, including news. So this ah ah month, we have seen the right to work law and the news and the candidates either taking a position or not taking a position on it. But the background of how... How it happened and why it's it part of Virginia law is so fascinating. And i love doing stuff like that. Recently, actually, I used some audio of governor bill tech bill ah ah use some audio of Governor Bill Tuck talking about the right to work law in the General Assembly.

17:51.91

Michael Pope

I use that audio um public radio. And I love doing stuff like that when you talk about the history of current events and ah ah really bring some context to it.

18:01.60

Sam Shirazi

you've made me think a lot about the the past in Virginia, and especially the Byrd machine, which, you know, i i wasn't I didn't grow up here. And i like you, I came here and you you would hear things about Byrd and his machine. But, you you know, it's it seems like so long ago, but through your reporting and through your work, I've kind of realized that a lot of that stuff still hangs over Virginia. So, you know, you you mentioned right to work and something that I'm interested in in this campaign because it's it's a big issue.

18:29.67

Sam Shirazi

Could you just kind of explain what it is and the history of it in Virginia and why it's such a big issue on the campaign trail?

18:36.12

Michael Pope

Sure, yeah, well, the big picture is that it harms unions by preventing them from organizing in the way that they do in many other states. And so it allows people to have representation by the union, but not paid dues for the representation that often happens in legal cases and contract negotiations. And you know right now, the federal workers that have unions are faring better than the federal workers that don't have unions. so the history of union politics in the United States,

19:10.34

Michael Pope

the history of union organizing in the United States kind of exploded in the 1940s. And there was a lot of violence associated with union activities and a lot of desire to shut them down and stop them as political forces. And so this actually came to a head in Richmond the nineteen forty s when the major utility, which today we would call Dominion Energy, this was a time when it was called Vepco, the Virginia Electric Power Company. And so the Vepco employees wanted to strike.

19:45.56

Michael Pope

And so the governor at the time, the bird machine governor, Bill um decided that he was going to do like Kobayashi Maru. Sam Shirazi, are you familiar with Star Trek II, The Wrath of Khan?

19:59.26

Sam Shirazi

You know, to be honest, I'm more of a political nerd, not a Star Trek nerd. Yeah.

20:03.54

Michael Pope

All right, some of your listeners have probably heard of the Kobayashi Maru, which was in Star Trek. and The Kobayashi Maru, which was in Star Trek II, but then I think it also made one of the reboots as a concept. And the idea is you win the game by changing the rules of the game, right? So like Captain Kirk famously hacked into the computer and changed how the game worked, how the...

20:28.13

Michael Pope

how the the disaster scenario that they were gaming out, he changed how it worked so that he could beat the game, right? So he hacked the game in order to beat it. That's how you beat the Kobayashi Maru was the name of the the the game that they were playing or you know the disaster scenario they were trying to game out. And so the reason I bring all this up with Star Trek II the Wrath of Khan and the Kobayashi Maru is that Here we've got Governor Bill Tuck doing the Kobayashi Maru in Virginia politics to undermine the power of unions because he changed the rules of the game by saying, all you people that work for the utility, I'm going to conscript you into the Virginia militia. And unless you show up for work, you will be court-martialed because you're no longer just an employee of VEPCO. You're no longer just a utility employee now. Yeah.

21:17.69

Michael Pope

you're in the Virginia militia. And if you fail to show up for work ah as part of this union strike, we will court martial you and you will have to deal with that. And so Governor Tuck actually did something really bold, changed the rules of the game, won the day, won the day. So there was no strike. He actually headed off the strike and then followed it up the very next year with the right to work law, which has forever undermined unions in Virginia ever since.

21:43.77

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, i think that's all really helpful background on on this debate. And just to give listeners context about what happened in the last week. So progressives have for a long time been trying to push Virginia to repeal the right to work law and the Democratic nominee, Abigail Spamberger, she said that she would not fully repeal it, which, you know, in theory might leave some wiggle room. And she even she mentioned she, you know, that there could be some reform to it. But she said she would not fully repeal the right to work law.

22:13.82

Sam Shirazi

I mean, i I don't want you to speculate too much. But, you know, why do you think that Certain Democrats in Virginia have this fear of repealing right to work when the unions want it to happen, the progressives want it to happen.

22:25.96

Sam Shirazi

And it just seems like historically just a hesitancy among some Democrats in Virginia to to touch the law or at least to fully repeal the law, as Congress, as Abigail Spamberger said, she said she's not going to do.

22:38.86

Michael Pope

The Democrats are in a tough spot here, no doubt about it. I mean, one thing is you have to remember Governor Bill Tuck was a Democrat, right? And so the creation of the right to work law is the history of the Democratic Party in Virginia. And so this is a bill that was created by a machine that was run by Democrats. So that's the origin of it. And then these days, you got all the business people who say, hey, don't get rid of the right-to-work law or you'll lose that best-in-business status. Hey, you want to be named CNBC's number one state of business, right? Don't you?

23:12.42

Michael Pope

yeah that would be it would That's a really nice ranking you got. It would be a shame to lose it. And so that's... like That's the threat. The business people like the fact that there's ah ah this right to work law and do not want to see the those liberals, so those progressive Democrats get rid of the right to work law. And and, you know, this is.

23:34.05

Michael Pope

created attention in the Democratic Party for some time. If you think about ah Governor Terry McAuliffe's campaign for governor in 2021, he was flummoxed on this issue. He told a a labor group on a Zoom meeting that he was in favor of overturning the right to work law. But then when I asked him the question in the parking lot of Port City Brewing here in Alexandria, he would not commit to overturning the right to work. So he had a shifting position on which indicates this tension inside of the Democratic Party, the sort of pro-labor rah-rah-rah for, you know, the union label. And then on the other side of the issue, the big business folks who want the CNBC ranking um best in business.

24:17.75

Michael Pope

So um saw McAuliffe sort of shifting his positions. And then this year has also been really interesting to watch the politics because we saw all six Democrats running for lieutenant governor.

24:29.26

Michael Pope

to come out in favor of repealing the right to work law in a televised debate that happened in Roanoke a couple weeks ago. I was a little surprised by that, Sam Shirazi. I was not expecting all six of the Democrats running for lieutenant governor to come out in favor of repealing the right to work. And then – Abigail Spanberger didn't really have a position. yeah Actually, after that debate with the lieutenant governor candidate, Saul coming out in favor of repealing the right to work, i tried to get a statement from the Spanberger campaign. And they sent me a written statement, but it didn't really say much. right I mean, it wasn't like she's in favor of repeal or she's in favor of keeping it.

25:06.44

Michael Pope

And that was the position that she eventually took. And so, you know, I think her position currently is a little cloudy. And i i mean, is she so she's not in favor of repeal. i mean, that's clear.

25:20.71

Michael Pope

And i guess she's in favor of keeping it, although modifying it some way that's a little bit unclear at this point. I feel like we need to hear more from Abigail Spamberger. i feel like she needs to talk to me because I've got lots of questions to ask her.

25:32.89

Michael Pope

And you know Her media people don't like – I guess don't like me asking the questions because after they sent me this two-sentence written statement that really did not answer the question, i tried to get an interview with the candidate to talk about her position on the right to work. And you know their campaign just stopped responding to my – to just stopped responding to my emails and text messages. So clearly this is a topic that they're not really comfortable talking about.

26:00.38

Michael Pope

And that fits into a long pattern here that dates back to the McAuliffe having troubles with this in 2021. And it actually being the origin story of it here being that it was created by the Democratic Party.

26:14.39

Sam Shirazi

Well, before I let you go, I did want to ask you one other question about an issue that's coming up on the campaign trail that has a long historical legacy here in Virginia, and that is the issue of felon disenfranchisement. So Virginia is one of a few one of the few states left where if you are convicted convicted of a felony,

26:33.03

Sam Shirazi

you lose your right to vote for the rest of your life unless the governor reinstates that right. Democrats have proposed a constitutional constitutional amendment that would automatically restore the right to vote for people when they are released from prison after serving their felony sentence.

26:50.77

Sam Shirazi

The first round of voting on that law took place this year, and most Republicans in the Virginia General Assembly voted against it. If the Democrats win the House of Delegates this November, they will vote on it again next year, and it will go to the voters in 2026 for a referendum.

27:09.49

Sam Shirazi

And so I wanted to ask you specifically about this issue because, you know, there's been a little bit of polling on it, and generally it polls pretty well. I think if it goes on the ballot, almost certainly it will pass, and it might even pass with about two-thirds of the vote.

27:23.88

Sam Shirazi

So this seems like a pretty popular thing. And, it and you know, the right to vote is obviously important. And in Virginia has had a messy history where African-Americans were denied the right to vote for a long time and and a lot of the legacy of the Jim Crow era.

27:39.35

Sam Shirazi

mean, why do you think the Republicans aren't fully behind this proposed constitutional amendment that would allow people convicted of felonies to regain their right to vote?

27:50.12

Michael Pope

Well, Republicans actually kind of like talking about voter fraud on the campaign trail and it actually gets their base kind of riled up. So, I mean, I'm not really sure.

28:01.22

Michael Pope

i mean, this issue cuts both ways too. I mean, you can talk about the racist history of felon felon disenfranchisement, which, you know, obviously we're about to do on this podcast, but it's important to also remember while we're having this discussion about the that, you that this is an issue that resonates with people today in 2025 on the campaign trail who think that the votes are all rigged and you have all these people who are undocumented people voting and and rigging the elections. And so this is an issue that actually does play on the campaign trail. But the history of voter felon disenfranchisement is really interesting. It's one of those things

28:40.76

Michael Pope

that you would frequently hear people say, well, that's the bird machine. That's the legacy of the bird machine. And I'm here to fact check that. Not true. Felon disenfranchisement dates way earlier than the bird machine.

28:53.51

Michael Pope

and actually is the early 1800s when Virginia constitutions started ah ah disenfranchising felons. And so the bird machine inherited...

29:04.68

Michael Pope

fell in disenfranchisement and ran with it to make sure that they had very small numbers of people voting. This is one of the ways that they maintained power for a long time, but don't let anybody tell you felon disenfranchisement is a legacy of the bird machine because it is not, it is actually much older than that. And it's something that the bird machine inherited. and as a matter of fact,

29:27.66

Michael Pope

Really interesting history here because you mentioned that Black people were denied the right to vote in Jim Crow. But let's remember there was an era before Jim Crow when Black people not just voted, but there were lots of Black elected officials in the General Assembly. And so the history is more complicated than Black people never voting because it was, there was a war, there was Reconstruction, and then after Reconstruction. There was this really interesting period after Reconstruction that it is the era of black power.

30:02.28

Michael Pope

And there was a political machine, the readjuster machine that was created by Senator William Mahone at that time period that actually had black elected officials as part of it. A little bit ironic because Mahone was a former Confederate general, former Confederate general running a political machine that largely depended on political power from black people.

30:25.39

Michael Pope

And then that whole thing fell apart. The machine fell apart. The conservative Democrats reasserted their power and created the era of Jim Crow. So sort of the history of felon disenfranchisement in Virginia is not a straight line. It's ah ah it's a really dramatic story that has ups and downs and ins and outs. And So, you know, I'm positive the Democrats love talking about this on the campaign trail. It is actually a little surprising. And when you talk to people who are not familiar with the history and the the way all of this works, most people would be surprised. Most people are surprised.

31:01.99

Michael Pope

to learn that Virginia is the only state of the country that has the system where the governor has to give people the right to vote back. The only state in the country where the governor has to give people their right to vote back to them.

31:15.70

Michael Pope

And so this is the kind of thing Democrats certainly like talking about on the campaign trail, but I will say, Republicans also like talking about this on the campaign trail and talking about voter fraud and stirring up these fears and concerns that it's all rigged and people who shouldn't be casting ballots are casting ballots. And the election people are hiding votes in suitcases under their desks and shuttling them around in the middle of the night.

31:43.85

Michael Pope

And there's satellites from Italy that are changing the numbers and you know there is definitely a market out there for that kind of stuff and so the i would say you know of that being a campaign issue certainly something that people are going to talk about but the politics cut both ways

32:00.84

Sam Shirazi

Well, I mean, I really appreciate you laying out that history. And, you know, I will also mention your book again. It's called The Bird Machine in Virginia, The Rise and Fall of a Conservative Political Organization.

32:11.86

Sam Shirazi

I did read it. I found it really interesting. I think there's a lot of lessons can be applied today. and And there's a lot of things you hear in Virginia that you you may not think about. And I think your your book does a good job laying out some of the legacy of the bird machine. So Anyways, I thought it was really interesting talking to you. i always appreciate your kind of historical perspective. I appreciate your pulse on Virginia elections and politics. So thank you so much for coming on today.

32:38.64

Michael Pope

Hey, congratulations again on the federal fallout. I look forward to listening to episodes in the future.

32:46.87

Sam Shirazi

thanks so much. And yes, also go listen to the Virginia Press Room and i will join you next week on Federal Fallout.

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