Hi, everyone. I’m Sam Shirazi, and this is Federal Fallout, the 2025 Virginia Elections. This is a special bonus interview with Rich Meagher. He is a professor of political science at Randolph-Macon College, and he is also the host of another great podcast about Virginia, which is called RVA’s Got Issues. So definitely make sure to check out that podcast as well. Rich, thanks for joining me.

Rich Meagher

No problem. As they say, long time, first time. So glad to be on here with you, Sam.

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, so I wanted to have you on to talk about a few things. I think one thing that’s different or interesting about your background, you have more of an academic background, have a PhD. Could you just talk about that background and what that kind of brings to your both political commentary and podcasting?

00:45.92

Rich Meagher

Yeah. I mean, I don’t want to like, it’s not about pulling rank or anything like that. Right. I i do not believe that a PhD makes you with like a, a better person than anyone else. Uh, and there’s lots of folks with PhDs political science who don’t know anything about their local political context.

Rich Meagher

And that’s fine. Right. It’s, it’s not, it’s not what every academic has to do, but for me, I’ve always been interested in how things that we talk about abstractly in political science, right? Concepts and and theories and things like that, how they play out locally.

01:22.57

Rich Meagher

And I found like very early on when I got to Richmond, that some of the stuff, you know, I occasionally get a call from a reporter and and they were asking me about stuff that was like, well, I, yeah, i know about that. We study that.

01:35.18

Rich Meagher

And, and the things that we study, i can actually, i hope help explain to you and your listeners. And I don’t want to say like a dumbed down way, but just not with the jargon and all that stuff.

01:45.88

Rich Meagher

And, and that hopefully it helps people understand a little bit more about what’s actually happening. what the fight is about, what the stakes are, and and how it might shake out. you know i I try to stay away from election predictions because nobody, even if political science, knows anything about that still.

02:04.17

Rich meagher

the The models are always like, here’s what happened last year, and we can explain what happened, but a little less less good at predicting. But so you know i just I’ve always felt like the stuff we learn and the stuff we know in political science is is helpful for the rest of the world. So I try to share it whenever I can.

02:21.20

Rich meagher

and And I hope that it’s helpful and not like confusing when I when i do

02:24.94

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, and I want to talk about your podcast because I think that’s a really interesting way where you can bring some of this academic stuff into more of the political discourse. And I know not just in political science, but a lot of different academic fields, history, other fields, like there’s a question about how much...

02:41.35

Sam Shirazi

It should be kind of more academic, you know, for lack of better term, more Ivy Tower versus like it should be more public. There should be more engagement. You know, which one do you think academics should do more? what what is the role of the academic?

02:54.50

Rich meagher

Yeah. I mean, I’m definitely on the side of more public engagement. And I think there’s a growing movement in political science about this. you know there’s There’s this whole question about our our national organizations, right? There’s like the American Political Science Association. There’s big meetings every year.

03:12.04

Rich meagher

And some folks in the discipline are like, hey, what are we doing about this whole, i don’t know, like democracy falling apart thing? What are we doing about this whole... like march towards authoritarianism all across the globe. Like, can we help at all? Because it seems like we know a little bit about politics. We should be involved.

03:29.66

Rich meagher

And for me, that stuff’s really interesting and important. But for me, it’s always been about local community, right? The local context. I’m much more interested in what’s happening in city council than I am in at the UN.

03:42.10

Rich meagher

and And that’s just my own kind of personal preference. I do think like I’ve always tried to offer a corrective because I think most of your regular citizens would say, oh yeah, i understand that UN n stuff is really scary and and it’s important, but they don’t think the same way about their city council all the time, right? They’re not thinking about their county board of supervisors meetings as as affecting their lives just as much as, you know, what Donald Trump is doing today, but but it really does. And so that’s been, you know, sort of my motivating even evangelical factor, right? Is just to raise the alarm and sound the,

04:17.47

Rich meagher

let’s get the word out about, you know, your local context. You know, what’s going on in, in the city, what’s going on in Richmond. And so the, the podcast for me has been an outgrowth of that work that I’ve been doing for years about like local politics. I mean, i wrote a book in 2020, you know, always be plugging your book, right?

04:36.26

Rich meagher

That was, that was local politics matters. i mean, that was the big argument was that, you you know, not only does the stuff that happened at the local level matter as just as much as anything else, but, You can, you have impact. I mean, you can meet these people. Like you can go to these meetings and they they can get to know you, you get to know your representatives.

04:51.69

Rich meagher

I don’t hang around buddy, buddy with Tim Kaine, but you know, I, I knew who my city council folks were in Richmond.

04:57.72

Sam Shirazi

Yeah. and And kind of talking about the podcast a little bit, you know, I want to definitely recommend people interested in Richmond area issues to listen to the podcast. I know recently you had the mayor of Richmond, Mayor of Lula on, and I thought that was a really interesting podcast for many reasons, including that he announced he was going to run for reelection, even though he’s not up for reelection until 2028.

05:18.52

Sam Shirazi

But I thought it was interesting to hear from the mayor and what it’s been like as he has come into office this year. i mean, I think most people outside of Richmond, the story they’ve heard in the last year is kind of the water crisis.

05:31.92

Sam Shirazi

And, you know, how is that going? And has things have things gotten better? and And what are the citizens in Richmond thinking about in terms of, you know, hopefully that never happening again?

05:42.08

Rich meagher

Yeah, I think, I mean, we hope it will never happen again. The odds are something, don’t want to say disastrous will happen, but, you know, we’re still a city with aging infrastructure and there’s only so much you can do about that overnight. And this is a big, like a national problem, right? It happens at the local level, but our infrastructure all across the country, you know, bridges and roads and, and water systems and sewers are, are aging, right. And, and we haven’t invested in them. We haven’t paid enough attention to them. And that was like brought home for everybody.

06:13.06

Rich meagher

At least most of all, you know, mayor of Vula when he stepped into the office here in Richmond. So I don’t think it’s the last time we’re going to have infrastructure problems. I don’t think it’s the last crisis the city’s going to face.

06:25.37

Rich meagher

maybe Maybe and hopefully it won’t be as bad as it was where we just didn’t have water for a week. But I mean, i think that conversation with with Mayor Avula is exactly the kind of of thing that we like to do on our podcast, right? Because you can get him, you know, his his newsletter and you can get a sense of what he says at his press conferences, but we really get to sit down with a guy.

06:47.95

Rich meagher

and you know, he’s a politician. He’s he’s very... polished person. I mean, I do think he seems to be very genuine. People like and and respond to him that way, but he gets a chance to talk in depth about some things. And so you get to hear about, yeah, like, oh yeah, I’m i’m going to run again. oh yeah. Like that that, you know, not quite an announcement, but a a way saying it.

07:06.68

Rich meagher

He also, I mean, one of the things I think that, that I didn’t hear a lot of people talk about on that, about that podcast was, you know, he he’s getting you know political violence. There’s threats, you know incredible threats that he has to worry about as a politician.

07:20.74

Rich meagher

And you know mayor of Richmond is not exactly a big job or it’s one where you’re really among the people all the time and you can’t be isolated to do that well. And I don’t think he wants to do that well.

07:31.72

Rich meagher

But, but he’s got to deal with this whole new reality, right. And in a really visceral way, you know, in a way that I think members of Congress don’t always have to, because they’re sort of whisked from limo to, to plane or helicopter or whatever. but you know, here’s this guy who’s just sort of like hanging around his neighborhood and walking around the city.

07:50.06

Rich meagher

So, I mean, I do think that that part of what we try to do in the podcast is just kind of humanize these folks who are active and in city government. And and again, you you can get to know them. You can get to see them. So I think that it’s a real genuine connection you can make with people like that.

08:05.62

Sam Shirazi

Yeah, it’s always a good reminder that politicians are human beings, too, as much as, you know, it’s hard to think of them that way.

08:09.38

Rich meagher

Yeah.

08:11.64

Sam Shirazi

But they have to face a lot of issues, even even though it’s it’s often a thankless job. And, you know, obviously, he’s just stepping into it. So we’ll see how how he does in the rest of his term.

08:23.69

Sam Shirazi

I did want to ask you about... kind of Richmond area, en Richmond City as well. But, you know, I moved to Virginia in 2006. And six and when when I was moving here, you know, Northern Virginia was the place where a lot of growth, a lot of people are moving to Northern Virginia. I think over time, it’s kind of hit its peak. There’s housing issues.

08:43.12

Sam Shirazi

And so i I know a lot of people are moving to the Richmond area. It’s growing relative to Northern Virginia. There’s obviously housing issues now because so many people are moving and housing costs have gone up.

08:54.12

Sam Shirazi

mean, have you seen that in the Richmond area? And how do you think the Richmond area is changing because of that?

08:59.26

Rich meagher

Oh, for sure. i mean, it is a huge topic of discussion here and and not to knock you folks in Northern Virginia, right? But Northern Virginia is sort of like the, the specter of the future hanging over Richmond. i mean, there are some folks here, particularly there’s a great website called RVAMag where they do a lot of car arts and culture commentary and reporting.

09:20.90

Rich meagher

And they’re a big thing. The folks there have been about like condo culture and and really trying to preserve Richmond’s identity in the in the wake of of all of the new people moving here.

09:33.32

Rich meagher

but There’s a sense that you know newcomers are welcome and and new investment is great, but it too many you know wealthy professionals coming down from the DC area, too many you know sort of like white folks from outside the city.

09:47.11

Rich meagher

you know, it’s a it’s a problem and and it’s not just a Richmond problem, but because Richmond, I think, has a distinct identity, there is this concern like you don’t want to become southern northern Virginia, you know, and I hear that a lot from people just sort of out and about.

10:01.81

Rich meagher

i read about it a lot and I experience it, too. I mean, I recently moved outside of the city borders, not, you know, for a variety of reasons and family release reasons and things like that. But, you know, i I would have liked to have stayed within the city.

10:15.71

Rich meagher

but because of family needs and and schools and things like that, just didn’t work out. And it would have been a lot easier to work out you know a decade ago, right? Because I i would have had more options. And it’s just the options are drying up for a lot of people at a lot of different income levels.

10:31.46

Rich meagher

And of course, it’s the the most vulnerable people are really suffering from that. But I think everybody is feeling pinch. Now, again, this is where Richmond is like the rest of the country. This is a national problem of housing affordability and housing burden and and And that’s affecting low income folks. It’s affecting high income folks. Not everybody can find a place to live where they want to live.

10:52.40

Rich meagher

And it is causing all kinds of you know, sort of cultural problems and concerns as well as like economic problems and concerns. So it’s definitely this part of the story of Richmond right now is what’s the future of Richmond going to look like?

11:05.46

Rich meagher

And everybody kind of like talking through how do we keep what’s so unique about the city and the region while still allowing for this growth, which is great and good for the economy and good for for everybody’s, you know, sort of pocketbooks in general.

11:19.49

Sam Shirazi

And you know one thing i think about is you know Richmond is obviously the capital of Virginia. And how does that aspect of the city fit into the culture? And what is it like when the General Assembly is in session? And i mean, I know people are just kind of going about their daily lives, but is it something that impacts the city or or do you feel it when the General Assembly is in session versus when it’s not?

11:42.92

Rich meagher

I mean, I i don’t know if if it’s really like a feel. I mean, certainly there are more people in the city and and I think it does have long-term effects over the year though. Like if you’re a downtown and hanging, if you work downtown or you go downtown during the sessions, big different vibe there.

11:58.05

Rich meagher

And you know, there’s there’s protests every day and people gathering the park and and just lots more people in suits and and fancy pins running around. there’s definitely an energy to the downtown area, but I think the longer term effect on Richmond is is more important. and And that helps people like me who are you know into politics for a living because it means that Richmond is a city.

12:20.38

Rich meagher

i mean, i always say this about Richmond, culturally, politically, economically, it’s a city that punches above its weight class. I mean, we’re not a big city, but I think we have a big impact. And so when I want to do something like start a podcast about local politics, I think one of the reasons why I can do that is I think we’re more politically attuned here in Richmond, right? Even though people might you know, not be involved in state government even though they’re not working directly for, you know, Glenn Youngkin or for a legislator, they still are are much more kind of connected to it. they’re more aware they’re thinking about politics. Politics is in the air a little bit more in Richmond than it might be elsewhere.

12:58.81

Rich meagher

So it’s easier for me to make the case, like if we talk about the city of Richmond, there are people here whose jobs are in state government or who are lobbyists or government relations people they’re advocates or nonprofit folks.

13:11.79

Rich meagher

And they’re going to pay attention to what’s going on in city hall because they’re attuned already to think about politics much more than your, your normal person. Who’s, you know, a lawyer out in Bristol say, or, uh, you know, a teacher out in,

13:27.48

Rich meagher

you know, another part of the state where they’re they’re not kind of thinking about it so much. So I do think that really helps bring politics alive a little bit more in the city so that even if we’re talking about what’s happening in the county or in in City Hall, I think people are are more likely to care about it. So that that’s helpful to me as a guy, you know, a local politics guy who’s trying to get people excited about about what’s happening in those places.

13:52.38

Sam Shirazi

That makes sense. And, you know, shifting gears towards the elections this year, i think Richmond area is is taking center stage for a few reasons. One is because two of the candidates on the Democratic side,

14:04.62

Sam Shirazi

Abigail Spanberger running for governor and Ghazal Hashmi running for lieutenant governor are from the Richmond suburbs. And then on the Republican side, John Reed running for lieutenant governor is is from the Richmond suburbs.

14:15.62

Sam Shirazi

And then also there’s several competitive House of Delegates seats in the Richmond area. How do you think Richmond... fits into this election, Richmond area. And do you think this is kind of a new area of focus in Virginia politics as Northern Virginia has kind of settled into its voting patterns? Maybe Richmond is becoming more of a center in Virginia politics.

14:36.65

Rich meagher

Yeah, I think that’s a good way to put it, right? Because Northern Virginia is the, I think, the center of political power and political gravity and in the Commonwealth. And I think, you know everything sort of tilts northward.

14:48.70

Rich meagher

But that means also that it’s kind of less interesting up there. No offense, right? But a lot of the the kind of battles that were shaking out like 10 years 20 years ago, twenty years ago over those competitive districts in Northern Virginia are kind of settled down, right? There’s just too many Democrats around to make it, i don’t want to say interesting, but but to make it competitive. Whereas the the competition has shifted to these more, you know, suburban districts in Central Virginia to a lesser extent out in the Tidewater area. But, you know, that urban corridor that runs from Northern Virginia through Central Virginia and out to the to the ocean is really where

15:27.38

Rich meagher

you you know, the Democrats are, it’s where the cities are, it’s where the kind of, a again, center of gravity is in this state that’s, that’s trending blue or is blue, or at least is purplish blue. And so the competition is going to happen along that corridor. Again, Northern Virginia, just because there’s so many Democrats now is less competitive. So I do think the sort of, when we’re looking at Virginia and what’s going on in Virginia, and particularly because we have these weird off year elections, when the whole country looks at Virginia,

15:55.36

Rich meagher

They’re looking more and more now to central Virginia as the place where stuff is happening and where people are coming from, just because everything’s so settled up in Northern Virginia, right? The power structures, the powerful Democrats are up there already. They’re kind of centered in their’re theyre in what they’re doing. And and it’s just, it’s it’s where the action is, I think, central Virginia. So so Richmond is is playing an outsized role in this election.

16:41.12

Sam Shirazi

And looking at the election big picture, you know, from your academic hat, you know, what is it that you are kind of seeing maybe that you haven’t heard other political commentators saying or or something that maybe your academic background kind of informs with this election that you’re not necessarily seeing other people talk about?

17:00.47

Rich meagher

Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that people aren’t talking about it, but the way I would put it in a very political science-y way is the nationalization of state and local elections, like the continuing nationalization of it.

17:12.78

Rich meagher

And it’s possible this was the case back in the late 1800s. Like we have reverted to a really, really partisan movement. politically divided, ideologically divided environment in in the country over the last 20, 30 years.

17:27.46

Rich meagher

And that’s not unprecedented. That’s the way politics kind of worked in the late 1800s, too. But it’s really shaking down the sort of partisan divide is is trickling down, you know like, i don’t know if it’s injecting down what the metaphor you should use is to state races and to local races. So that, you know, for example, the, the Jay Jones texting scandal that we’re seeing right now, I mean, to me, this is an ultimate test of partisan power, right? Are people going to focus on this guy and his particular, you know, scandals or concerns about this, this particular race, or are they going to vote DNR, right? is Is that what’s going to determine this race? And I think,

18:07.07

Rich meagher

If Jay Jones wins this race, despite everything that, you know, he’s sort of these self-inflicted wounds he’s given himself over the last couple of weeks. If he wins this race, that suggests to me that this nationalization is really, really dominating our elections right now to the point where you can do just about anything.

18:23.85

Rich meagher

As long as you’ve got that letter in your name, that’s going to be what people vote for. So that’s what I’m looking for. Like, and again, i’m not making a prediction here about how this is going to shake out. But but to me, that’s a trend that we measure in political science.

18:37.69

Rich meagher

That is a sort of concept that we’ve been kind of looking at and that I think really can help us understand what happens in an election. If something happens, and you’re like, why did that happen? Well, here’s an example. Nationalization, all this partisan divide is is really just kind of dominating our politics so much that that’s how voters think now.

18:55.97

Sam Shirazi

That makes sense. and And I think one thing that I’ve seen in a lot of the academic literature and and also in the political commentary is the fact that we’ve become so kind of isolated. So Richmond is really blue, but then you go you know a little bit outside into more rural areas and it’s really red. And you know i remember not too long ago when it was...

19:16.65

Sam Shirazi

more even where things weren’t so red and blue. And I’ve seen a lot of different explanations. Some of it is social media, some of it is redistricting, some of it is self sorting. I mean, there’s so many different of explanations for why things have kind of shaken out the way they have and we’ve become so polarized, as you say. i mean, from your research or your sense, even why do you think things have gotten so polarized these days?

19:41.72

Rich meagher

Yeah, I should say it’s and it’s not my area of focus, really partisan polarization. But in general, the technological argument is really compelling to me, like just the the media environment, the algorithms of our social media, the way that people consume news and information these days is is really just become divided into different streams that are catering to our ideological interests.

20:08.87

Rich meagher

You know, not that the world was perfect back when everybody watched CBS News and Walter Cronkite and all that stuff. Like, I’m not that, you know, like like the history is is not, it’s not like we didn’t have problems before.

20:20.50

Rich meagher

But but the the the the lack of a kind of monoculture, the lack of any kind of, and I don’t know, the the the way that we’re just sort of self-selecting our own and the technological tools we have are enabling us to to choose more and more of the stuff that we agree with, I think is a big problem.

20:39.16

Rich meagher

I mean, and then the other thing that the technology connects to is the the sort of bowling alone thesis. That’s Robert Putnam wrote a but famous book. He’s a big... former head of of political science associations and and very famous political scientist and social scientist who argued that you know the lack of of what he called social capital, the lack of of civic engagement, the lack of connections at the community level between people is really driving this home even further, right?

21:06.92

Rich meagher

Where 30 years ago, you may still have been strongly Republican or Democrat, but you bowled with people who were different from you. right You saw them at church. You maybe joined a rotary club or you were you know active in the Boy Scouts and whatever. You saw all these people that had different were different walks of life and different interests and different ideologies.

21:28.12

Rich meagher

And we’re less and less likely to do that now. We’re less and less likely to join up with groups that might bring us in contact with people we disagree with politically. and And that’s being fed along with our our technological and media consumption.

21:40.91

Rich meagher

So I think those two things together, the sort of technology piece, which affects our media and social media, and the this sort of lack of community engagement is is really driving us apart in this in this way.

21:53.79

Sam Shirazi

Well, to try to close out on more optimistic but note, do you think local government is a way to maybe bridge the divide?

22:00.75

Sam Shirazi

Because I often notice, at least in my local government, there are a lot of issues that are basically nonpartisan, you know fittic filling in potholes. I mean, these types of things where we don’t have to be debating super hot button issues.

22:13.17

Sam Shirazi

Do you think there’s a way to use local government to maybe, and don’t say counter the polarization, but maybe bring people together to talk about kind of less partisan issues?

22:23.20

Rich meagher

Yeah, it’s a great question, Sam. And I do believe it, but we have to be careful about just saying, well, go local and everything will be fine. I mean, the the book I wrote in 2020, Local Politics Matters, I actually argue that there are right answers in local politics. Like we know that we should invest in transit. We just don’t because of political and like lack of political will and resources.

22:46.26

Rich meagher

But we know the benefits of it and we know we should do it. We know we need affordable housing. It’s just question how to do it exactly. But we we just know. So I do think there’s agreement, there’s good data, there’s a lack of, like you say, the kind of partisan heat that we can get from from local politics if we get more people involved.

23:04.69

Rich meagher

The only problem is that the kind of structural inequalities that we have in America get reproduced at the local level. And political scientists have studied local politics and they at least currently right The kinds of folks who get involved in local politics are often sort of wealthy property interests, right? Either rich people, property owners, like homeowners, you know, like HOA associations, all this kind of stuff.

23:29.95

Rich meagher

And so it’s not equitable. and And participation needs to be more equitable at the local level. i’m I’m not saying that’s always the case. and And certainly folks in Richmond, and there’s been some recent efforts by the city, for example, the the people’s budget effort, right? They really tried to bring it to the the people, the the idea of of asking citizens, what what do you want to pay for, like, here’s a chunk of money. What kind of things do you want to spend that money on?

23:55.57

Rich meagher

They really tried to work on outreach and there’s a lot of programs and and and nonprofits and and governments that are trying to do that. But I think we need to do more. Like we should have childcare available at city council meetings. We should feed people.

24:08.62

Rich meagher

Mike Jones, when he was a city council member here in Richmond, was always like, you’ve got to feed people at meetings because it’s it’s not just that that that gets them to come. It’s like it’s just an equity issue. Like people aren’t going to come if they have to choose between coming your meeting and and eating dinner like they need to need to eat and they don’t have time.

24:25.05

Rich meagher

you got to feed them. like And so that kind of ethos, that kind of like, yes, local politics can help bridge the divide, but we have to set up the structures of local government and local politics and local engagement to make sure that we’re not reproducing other divides that we see elsewhere.

24:42.60

Rich meagher

So that’s what I sort of caveat about. I really do believe that that local politics can be part of the answer, but we’ve got to create a local politics that is a sort of open hand to everybody so that it’s easy for them to participate rather than just letting the same voices kind of dominate.

24:57.85

Sam Shirazi

That makes sense. And food and meetings is always a good idea. So I think that’s yeah that’s a creative way to do it.

25:00.51

Rich meagher

Always feed them. Always feed them.

25:04.13

Sam Shirazi

Well, one last question about the Richmond area. If people want to visit either for vacation or for a day trip, what is something in the Richmond area that you enjoy or something that you think is is not as well known that people should go visit?

25:17.65

Rich meagher

Oh, that’s a really good question. Yeah, that’s that’s a tough one too because it just depends on on who you are. I mean, I always point to museums, right? And I hate to be like the museum nerd, but if you’ve got a kid who’s even like yeah a tween, like a teenager, the science museum is just like a great way to spend the day. i mean, I have fun when I go there with my kids.

25:40.72

Rich meagher

I’ve been in a few years, like but I sometimes think like my youngest kid’s now 16. sixteen I’d like to kind of drag her back to the Science Museum just because it’s it’s fun for everybody. And the VMFA, right, is it just this beautiful little urban park outside of it. I think they’re renovating it right now, but it’s like it’s free every day, and you can spend 15 minutes in there or five hours, but to like to just go stick your head in the museum and then just sit outside among sculpture in this beautiful park.

26:08.68

Rich meagher

that’s That’s the way to go. I mean, I just think you got to take advantage. I know those are sort of like easy answers, but I just kind of feel like those are the gems of the city. and And if you’re in the city, you should you should go and and hang out with those places.

26:22.51

Rich meagher

I mean, take a grown-up, go on a date to the Science Museum. You guys can have fun there banging on things and running around. Even grown-ups can have a good time there.

26:31.56

Sam Shirazi

Well, museums are always great. So those are some good recommendations. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. Check out RVA’s Got Issues, another great podcast. So Rich, thanks so much for joining me today.

26:42.29

Rich meagher

Anytime, Sam. Thanks so much.

26:43.68

Sam Shirazi

All right. And this has been Federal Fallout and I’ll join you next time.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit samshirazi.substack.com