Broken to Beloved Podcast

What if you could actually measure how unsafe your church was? What if you could know how severe your spiritual abuse was?

In this episode, Brian sits down with Lianna and Abram, co-founders of the Spiritual Safety Center, to unpack their newly peer-reviewed Spiritual Safety Survey and the science behind its scoring—plus a first look at their upcoming book, Building a Safer Church, and the training cohorts helping people move from harm to healthy, spiritually safe communities.

You’ll hear about:

• how and why the Center and Survey were created
• the validation process and what it means for using the Survey
• how trauma scores reveal spiritual harm

Guest Spotlight ✨  

Lianna Chong has over a decade of experience in ministry and consulting around compassion fatigue, resilience, and psychological safety. She brings a systemic lens to organizational assessments. After watching her church divide over questions of spiritual abuse, she developed the Spiritual Safety Scale (forthcoming) to help people recognize signs of healthy and unhealthy environments.

She holds a Master's of Theological Studies, an MA in Organizational Psychology, and certification in psychological safety.

Abram Kielsmeier-Jones pastors a racially and economically (and personality!) diverse Christian church in the heart of Boston. He has spent more than twenty years in youth and pastoral ministry, working at small, mid-sized, and large churches in Illinois, Virginia, and Massachusetts.

He studied philosophy at Wheaton College (IL) and earned his M.Div. from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, with an emphasis in Urban Ministry, using every last elective to further study Greek and Hebrew biblical texts.

Together, they co-founded the Spiritual Safety Center, a nonprofit dedicated to helping church members and leaders build safe places of faith.

Links & Resources 🔗 

Website | Lianna’s Instagram | Lianna’s Substack | Abram’s Substack

• preorder Building a Safer Church (coming April 2027) on Amazon | Bookshop
• take the Spiritual Safety Survey
• Apply for a Spiritual Safety Training Cohort
• Episode 22: Creating and Validating a Spiritual Abuse Assessment with Lianna Chong

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Have you experienced spiritual harm? Are you looking for a community or resource to help make sense of it and find a path forward?

The THROUGH Cohort is designed for you, and applications for our next season are open now!

In this special bonus episode, I'll tell you about how the cohort works, what we cover, and what you need to know. If you've been looking for a practical resource and a place to bring your brokenness and ask big questions, this is the group for you.

I hope you'll join us!

Links & Resources 🔗  

Apply for the THROUGH Cohort today!

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Can spiritual abuse actually be traced to a system that was centuries in the making?

What started as a fun project about mommy blogs and Hallmark movies became a staggering, meticulously researched narrative of how evangelical women's culture was engineered to suppress dissent and punish those who step out of line.

Kristin pulls the threads of New Thought philosophy and largely unknown figures like Hannah Whittall Smith and Henrietta Mears to reveal how they led directly to our present reality.

It’s an eye-opening and fascinating episode. If you’ve ever questioned how we got where we are today in the church, you won’t want to miss this conversation.

You’ll hear about:

• How hearing and understanding history can help us to
• How the “power of positive thinking” became synonymous with evangelical culture and how it keeps women silent, compliant, and loyal
• How understanding a long view of history can reveal a direct line from 1800s holiness theology to Hallmark movies, Thomas Kinkade, purity culture, MLMs, and Turning Point.

Guest Spotlight ✨  

Author of the New York Times bestseller Jesus and John Wayne, Kristin Du Mez is a writer, speaker, and scholar who explores the intersection of religion, gender, and politics. She has written for The New York Times, The Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today, and has been interviewed on NPR, CBS, and the BBC, among other outlets. Her most recent book is Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. Her next book, Live Laugh Love, is expected in September 2026.

An academic by training, Du Mez holds a Ph.D. in U.S. history from the University of Notre Dame, but she writes and speaks for popular audiences in an entertaining style that is equal parts winsome and hard-hitting. Her unflinching examination of the American church, however, is ultimately a call to confession, a call to lament, and a call to greater faithfulness.

She teaches at Calvin University and lives in Grand Rapids, Michigan, with her husband, three kids, and a dog named Paco.

Links & Resources 🔗 

Website | Instagram | Facebook | Substack | BlueSky

• Live Laugh Love: The Secret History of White Christian Women and the World They Made by Kristen Kobes du Mez | Amazon | Bookshop
• Jesus and John Wayne by Kristen Kobes du Mez | Amazon | Bookshop
• “For Our Daughters” project and film

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Can you love God without losing yourself?

If you've ever felt like faith required you to shrink, suppress, or self-loathe your way to holiness, this episode is for you. Writer and storyteller Kristen LaValley joins us to talk about her book Growing Up Saved, offering a refreshing, honest path through spiritual formation gone wrong. From reimagining what belonging looks like after church hurt, to understanding your spiritual nervous system, to discovering the concept of pronoia — the belief that God is conspiring for your good — this conversation is full of hard-won wisdom for anyone navigating faith after pain.

You’ll also hear about:

• how spiritual self-loathing often masquerades as faithfulness, and what it takes to reclaim an identity rooted in being beloved rather than broken
• how Kristen rebuilt her capacity for community by starting outside of church and letting her nervous system slowly relearn what safety feels like
• the concept of the "spiritual nervous system" — learning to recognize your faith triggers without turning them into a moral verdict on yourself or others.

Guest Spotlight ✨  

Kristen LaValley is a writer and storyteller whose words offer a refreshing perspective on faith and spirituality and resonate with those who carry tension in their faith. She offers insights that intersect doubt and belief, hope and suffering, beauty and heartache. With a deep love for the Christian faith and a willingness to explore its complexities, Kristen’s writing offers nuanced conversations that challenge readers to think deeply and wrestle with important questions. Kristen lives in Massachusetts with her husband, Zach, and their five children.

Links & Resources 🔗 

Website | Instagram | Substack | Facebook

• Growing Up Saved by Kristen LaValley | Amazon | Bookshop

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What if forcing spiritual practices make healing harder — not easier?

Therapist and author Colleen Ramser joins the podcast to discuss her debut book, The Shattered Soul: Restoring Wholeness and Rebuilding Your Faith After Spiritual Trauma.

Drawing on 15+ years of clinical experience, Colleen offers a compassionate, body-aware path forward for survivors who feel like their faith has been shattered beyond repair — and makes the case for going slow, starting small, and giving yourself permission to set down practices that are doing more harm than good.

You’ll also hear about:

• Unpacking the difference between spiritual abuse and spiritual trauma, and why the distinction matters for how you approach healing.
• Exploring the "somatic soul" — why addressing the body is often the first step toward reconnecting with your faith.
• Discerning the difference between persuasion, influence, and coercion

Guest Spotlight ✨  

Colleen Ramser, M.A., is a licensed therapist, speaker, author, and podcaster specializing in trauma—particularly spiritual abuse, domestic abuse, and complex trauma. An EMDR Certified Therapist trained in somatic and internal family systems therapies, she brings over 15 years of experience in ministry and clinical practice. Colleen frequently trains and consults with faith leaders and mental health clinicians on survivor care and addressing systemic harm.

She is the author of The Shattered Soul: Restoring Wholeness and Rebuilding Your Faith After Spiritual Trauma. As a survivor of trauma, Colleen is a compassionate witness on the journey, bringing not only her clinical expertise but also a deep knowing of dark nights and the breath of new mercies. Colleen lives in Louisville, KY, with her husband and two kids.

Links & Resources 🔗 

Website | Instagram | Facebook

• Here Not There Podcast
• The Shattered Soul by Colleen Ramser | Amazon | Bookshop
• Apply for The Shattered Soul Book Cohort

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What does it mean to own yourself after years of being told your body, voice, and choices belonged to someone else? Join us for a conversation with New York Times bestselling author Tia Levings as she unpacks the concept of autonomy as both a psychological milestone and a direct act of resistance against cult control.

We talk about reclaiming autonomy in our minds, hearts, and bodies, how “should” is one of the most dangerous words in the recovery space, and how fundamentalism is a structure of thought that can show up along any spectrum. We explore the tension between silence as both safety and complicity, and how survivors can learn to wield their voice (and their quiet) with intention and autonomy.

You’ll also hear about:

• What fundamentalism actually is at its core
• How to identify when a religious environment has become harmful
• How pressure to share your story can replicate religious coercion
• How religious indoctrination interrupts natural psychological development
• Why belonging should never require surrendering your individuality

Guest Spotlight ✨  

Tia Levings is the New York Times Bestselling author of A Well-Trained Wife, her memoir of escape from Christian Patriarchy. She writes about the realities of Christian fundamentalism, evangelical patriarchy, and religious trauma. Her work has appeared in Teen Vogue, Salon, the Huffington Post, and Newsweek. She also appeared in the hit Amazon docu-series, Shiny Happy People. Based in North Carolina, she is mom to four incredible adults and likes to travel, hike, paint, and daydream.

Links & Resources 🔗 

Website | Instagram | Substack

• I Belong to Me by Tia Levings | Amazon | Bookshop
• A Well-Trained Wife by Tia Levings | Amazon | Bookshop

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We need your help. Your gift of just $25 will make a big difference and help us continue this work. Donate today.

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After spiritual abuse, how do you separate the voice of Jesus from the voices that harmed you? 

In this conversation with theologian and pastor A.J. Swoboda, we explore why slowing down — not speeding up — is the key to rebuilding a durable, honest faith after spiritual harm.

How do you trust truth again when it's been weaponized against you? This conversation explores how we can learn to trust truth again when it's been weaponized.

There can be ways to hold strong beliefs without becoming harmful, to understand that belief is not certainty, and that genuine theological knowledge should produce humility, not arrogance.

You'll learn:

• Why treating faith like a commodity does long-term damage
• How truth is often used as a power play in religious communities
• How to hold beliefs with humility rather than certainty
• Why fundamentalism is a mindset that can exist anywhere on the political or theological spectrum
• How lament is a legitimate and important part of the faith journey 

Guest Spotlight ✨  

Rev. Dr. A. J. Swoboda (Ph.D., Birmingham) is the lead pastor of Faith Center in Eugene, Oregon and is the associate professor of Bible and Theology at Bushnell University. He is the lead mentor of the Doctor of Ministry program in Christian Formation and Soul Care at Friends University. He is the author of many books, including The Gift of Thorns (Zondervan), After Doubt (Brazos), and the award-winning Subversive Sabbath (Brazos). He hosts the “Slow Theology” podcast (w/ Dr. Nijay Gupta) and writes the widely read “Low-Level Theologian” Substack. A.J. lives and works on an urban farm with his wife and son in Eugene, Oregon.

Links & Resources 🔗 

Substack | Website | Instagram

• Slow Theology Podcast
• Slow Theology by AJ Swoboda & Nijay Gupta | Amazon | Bookshop

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So I’ve deconstructed. What now?

In her latest book, “To Rebehold the Stars,” author and professor Tiffany Yecke Brooks guides us into a hopeful path of reconstruction. Drawing on Dante, psychology, and spiritual formation, she invites us to reimagine faith with wonder, curiosity, and courage after spiritual abuse or disillusionment.

Explore how naming experiences creates categories for healing and helps form a new, life-giving spiritual lexicon. Differentiate between discomfort that grows us and pain that harms us—and challenge spiritual teachings that keep us hostage to harm. Learn how to “audit” traditions, discern what aligns with the heart of God, and practice spiritual differentiation: forming your own faith while remaining in relationship if you wish.

Guest Spotlight ✨  

Tiffany Yecke Brooks is the lead or contributing writer for more than three dozen books, including multiple New York Times bestsellers. She writes about issues facing the modern church in her latest book, To Rebehold the Stars: Reimagining Faith and Formation After Deconstruction. She has also cowritten many books and written numerous articles for publications such as Smithsonian, New York Archives Magazine, and various peer-reviewed journals.

Tiffany holds a PhD from Florida State University, an MA in Classics from the University of Bristol (UK) and an MA in Spiritual Formation from Portland Seminary. She has taught literature and writing at Florida State University, Abilene Christian University, McMurry University, and the University of South Carolina-Beaufort and currently teaches nonfiction writing at the Gaylord College of Journalism and Mass Communication at the University of Oklahoma.

Links & Resources 🔗 

Website | Instagram | Substack

• THROUGH Cohort waitlist
• Gaslighted by God: Reconstructing a Disillusioned Faith by Tiffany Yecke Brooks on Amazon | Bookshop
• Episode 7: Forced Forgiveness: Misinterpreting Matthew 18 with Dr. Scot McKnight
• Episode 36: Burning a Path to Renewal with Erin Moon

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We need your help. Your gift of just $25 will make a big difference and help us continue this work. Donate today.

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In this episode, neighbor and author Shannan Martin shares her “counterweights” practice—how we move forward by carrying life’s heaviness with equal measures of rest, joy, and community. Together, we explore how to navigate the burdens we carry and the importance of community, grief, and hope.

Shannan shares why we often can’t set our burdens down (and how privilege shapes who can), how grief is a counterweight to loss, and how naming both our weights and counterweights becomes a path to healing. From jailhouse church to backyard gardens, she shows how neighbors, embodied practices, and hope as a renewable resource keep us upright in a complicated and lopsided world.

You’ll hear:

• How grief functions as a healing counterweight to loss
• Simple counterweights that aren’t just self care or spiritual bypassing
• How being a neighbor can help and serve the vulnerable in your community
• Why curiosity over certainty can be a counterweight in a changing faith—and how to rebuild belonging

Guest Spotlight ✨

Shannan Martin is the bestselling author of several books, including Start with Hello, The Ministry of Ordinary Places, and the popular Substack The Soup. Shannan is a wannabe gardener, a news geek, a fighter for justice, and a thrift store stalker. She and her family live as grateful neighbors in Goshen, Indiana, where Shannan is on staff at the local community kitchen.

Links & Resources 🔗 

Website | Instagram | Substack

• Counterweights by Shannan Martin | Amazon | Bookshop
• Good Soil by Jeff Chu | Amazon | Bookshop

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We need your help. Your gift of just $25 will make a big difference and help us continue this work. Donate today.

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Have you ever heard people using a word that sounds important and like something you should already know about?

Misogyny can feel like one of those words, and this week, we’re talking with author and journalist Dorothy Greco about her newest book, For the Love of Women. She expands the definition of misogyny beyond “hatred of women,” explores how it permeates everyday life—including the church—while offering a path toward healing and change.

We talk about the spectrum of misogyny from subtle bias to overt abuse, how power and theology get misused in spiritual spaces, and practical ways men and communities can become allies, advocates, and interrupters. The conversation closes with hopeful practices for healing, boundaries, and cultivating beauty.

You’ll hear:

• Why power dynamics matter and the difference between patriarchy, complementarianism, and misogyny
• Practical steps to confront misogyny: ally, advocate, and interruptor
• How entitlement fuels harm and how men can begin with grief, empathy, and listening
• Why anger can be a faithful, constructive response to injustice—and how to process it

Guest Spotlight ✨  

Dorothy Greco has worked as a photojournalist for more than forty years. She is a three-time author and has written for many publications including Christianity Today, Missio Alliance, Christians for Biblical Equality, and The Common Good. She is the mother of three grown men and a wife to one husband. 

Links & Resources 🔗 

Website | Substack | Instagram

• For the Love of Women: Uprooting and Healing Misogyny in America by Dorothy Greco | Amazon | Bookshop

Similar Episodes You Might Like

• Episode 42: Safeguarding the Church against Sexism and Abuse with Dr. Andrew Bauman
• Episode 41: Ordinary Women of Faith and Ministry with Beth Allison Barr
• Episode 21: Deconstructing Deconstruction with Scot McKnight & Tommy Preson Phillips

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We need your help. Your gift of just $25 will make a big difference and help us continue this work. Donate today.

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Leave us a rating and review on Apple or on Spotify. This all helps us to grow and continue providing quality content for you and our community of listeners.

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