The crowded race for the Democratic nomination includes both frontrunners and long-shots, but how do we know which is which? Some big names have trailed in fundraising and polls. And some written off early have found surprising support.

On this week’s Radio Atlantic, Isaac Dovere is joined by one of the biggest long-shot successes in recent Democratic politics: Howard Dean. The former Vermont governor was an unlikely frontrunner for the presidency, but for a time in the 2004 race, he was the man to beat.

Dean talks about what it was like to go from long-shot to frontrunner—and what it’s like to have it all fall apart. He recalls how his 2004 campaign was animated (and perhaps limited) by anger at President Bush. Now, Dean warns Democrats against falling into the same trap with Donald Trump.

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