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Is it possible to build the most powerful technology in human history while remaining a genuinely decent person, or does that kind of greatness require a willingness to burn everything down? Sebastian Mallaby, author of The Infinity Machine, joins Bradley to argue that Demis Hassabis may be the rarest breed: a Nobel Prize-winning scientist and world-changing CEO who cares deeply about safety. But as Mallaby and Bradley explore the coming political reckoning with AI, the big unknown is what sort of catastrophe it will take for our leaders to bring this technology under control.

This episode was taped at P&T Knitwear at 180 Orchard Street — New York City’s only free podcast recording studio.

Firewall nominated for a Webby Award! Vote today and support us for best individual episode - interview or talk show - for Bradley's interview with then-candidate Zohran Mamdani in April 2025. We’re up against Oprah, so we’ll need all the votes we can get! It only takes 10 seconds - thanks in advance. Vote here before April 16: https://bit.ly/firewallwebby

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