Care for Pastors Podcast

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Host: Robby Bolden
Guest: Trey Hildebrant, Senior Teaching Pastor at First Orlando

How do you know when God is leading you into a new ministry assignment?
In this episode, Robby Bolden sits down with Trey Hildebrant to discuss his transition from eleven years at TwelveStone Church to serving as Senior Teaching Pastor at First Orlando.
Trey shares how he and his wife sought God’s direction through prayer, wise counsel, and honest conversations. He describes the difficulty of leaving a church and team he loved, the importance of his wife’s perspective, and how they found peace while facing the uncertainties of change.
The conversation also explores shared leadership, family priorities, personal spiritual health, and the unexpected discouragement Trey experienced after stepping into his new role.

In This Episode
 Discerning when it may be time for a ministry transition
 Recognizing the difference between pursuing a calling and escaping frustration
 Listening to your spouse throughout the decision
 Seeking peace without expecting every detail to be clear
 Knowing when to involve current church leadership
 Leaving well and honoring meaningful ministry relationships
 Building trust through humility, shared leadership, and celebrating others
 Protecting personal time with Jesus beyond sermon preparation
 Caring for your family during a transition
 Addressing discouragement with truth and support from trusted friends
 Examining the desire for a larger platform or greater influence

Key Takeaways
Discernment takes time and community.
Trey’s transition involved years of reflection followed by months of conversations. Prayer, his wife’s perspective, and trusted counsel all helped him evaluate the opportunity.

A healthy departure can still be painful.
Trey loved TwelveStone and the people he served alongside. Leaving involved grief and honest conversations, even as the church ultimately celebrated sending him into a new role.

Your identity in Christ needs attention beyond your ministry work.
Trey intentionally reads, prays, and studies outside his sermon preparation. He emphasizes being a follower of Jesus before fulfilling the responsibilities of a pastor.

Discouragement can follow a clear sense of calling.
When self-doubt surfaced, Trey returned to the truths that had guided his decision and reached out to fellow pastors. Their understanding reminded him that he wasn’t alone.

A larger platform cannot provide lasting fulfillment.
Trey encourages pastors to examine their motivations. His relationship with Christ, love for the church, and commitment

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Host: Robby Bolden
Guests: Paul and Niki Speed, Whatever It Takes Ministries

What if the fear of being fully known is keeping you from receiving the support you need? In Part Two, Robby Bolden continues his conversation with Paul and Niki Speed. Niki shares how childhood abuse, rejection, and a deep longing for love shaped her relationships and her understanding of God.

Even while serving in ministry, she carried painful experiences and hidden struggles she was afraid to discuss. Niki describes how a women’s Hope Weekend became a turning point, followed by ongoing coaching and the work of addressing shame and learning to receive love. Paul and Niki also share how their lives came together and explain how Whatever It Takes
Ministries supports men, women, and couples through intensive weekends.

In This Episode
 How childhood abuse and abandonment shaped Niki’s sense of worth
 Carrying shame and hidden struggles while serving in ministry
 The fear that being fully known will lead to rejection
 Finding a community where honest conversations were met with care
 Niki’s experience at a Hope Weekend and through follow-up coaching
 How Paul and Niki’s relationship began
 What happens at the ministry’s men’s, women’s, and couples’ intensives
 Developing an action plan to put learning into practice
 Encouragement for people who feel that change is no longer possible

Key Takeaways
Being known can open the door to support.
Niki feared that sharing her story would cost her love and acceptance. She describes finding people who listened, understood, and continued to care for her.
Shame can persist behind a busy ministry life.
Serving others did not resolve the pain Niki carried. Her story invites pastors to consider whether they have safe relationships where they can speak honestly about their own lives.
Healing takes time and ongoing support.
Niki’s journey included a ministry weekend, continued coaching, and learning to recognize beliefs that shaped how she saw herself and God. Both guests describe growth as an ongoing process.
Practical follow-through matters.
Paul and Niki explain that participants leave their intensives with personal action plans. These may include honest conversations, addressing damaged relationships, and seeking continued support.

Questions to Consider
 What am I afraid would happen if someone knew how I’m really doing?
 Who can listen to my story with compassion and wisdom?
 How have painful experiences shaped what I believe about myself and God?
 What is one step I can take toward receiving support?
 How can our church become a safer place for people to ask for help?

About Whatever It Takes Ministries
Paul and Niki describe Whatever It Takes Ministries as offering intensive weekends for men, women, and couples. These gatherings include teaching, personal testimonies, opportunities to process what participants are learning, and plans for continued growth. Niki also shares how follow-up coaching supported her own journey.

Care for the Pastor Behind the Ministry
Pastor, you need a place where you can be honest about your struggles and receive care. Care for Pastors provides confidential counseling, coaching, encouragement, and support for pastors and their families.

Visit careforpastors.org and select Get Help to begin a conversation.

Continue the Conversation
If you missed Part One, listen to Paul’s story about secrecy, rebuilding trust, grief, and the beginnings of Whatever It Takes Ministries.
Paul and Niki will return in a future conversation focused on teenagers, pastors’ kids, and helping parents navigate difficult issues with their children.

Listen to Part Two with Paul and Niki Speed wherever you get your podcasts.

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Host: Robby Bolden
Guests: Paul and Niki Speed, Whatever It Takes Ministries

What happens when protecting our image keeps us from asking for help?

In Part One of this two-part conversation, Robby Bolden welcomes Paul and Niki Speed of Whatever It Takes Ministries. Paul shares how he learned to appear spiritually healthy while hiding struggles with pornography—and how years of secrecy damaged his first marriage. He describes the turning point when he told his first wife the truth, accepted responsibility, and committed to doing whatever it took to pursue freedom. Their journey toward healing eventually became a ministry helping others walk through similar struggles. Paul also reflects on losing his first wife to cancer, the questions that grief brought to his faith, and the beginning of the next chapter with Niki.

In This Episode
 Growing up in church while feeling unable to be fully known
 Early exposure to pornography and the confusion of childhood sexual abuse
 The cost of secrecy, dishonesty, and emotional distance in marriage
 Taking responsibility without blaming a spouse
 The courage to tell the truth when the outcome is uncertain
 How sharing their story led to Whatever It Takes Ministries
 Navigating grief and questions about God after losing a spouse
 Niki’s first impressions of Paul and the ministry

Key Takeaways
Honesty creates an opportunity for change.
Paul describes how hiding kept him isolated. Telling the truth opened the door to accountability, difficult conversations, and the work of rebuilding trust.
Taking responsibility means owning your choices.
Paul recounts rejecting advice that blamed his wife for his behavior. His struggles preceded their marriage, and addressing them required him to accept responsibility.

Trusting God includes facing uncertainty.
Paul could not control how others would respond to his honesty. He shares what it meant to trust God while facing the possible consequences of telling the truth.
Vulnerability can help others seek support. When Paul and his first wife shared their story publicly, other couples began opening up about their own struggles. Those conversations helped lay the foundation for their ministry.

Questions to Consider
 Is there a gap between the image I present and what I’m experiencing privately?
 Who is a safe, trustworthy person I can speak with honestly?
 Where do I need to take responsibility for my choices?
 How can I respond with both grace and accountability when someone asks for help?

About the Guests
Paul and Niki Speed serve through Whatever It Takes Ministries, which offers intensives for men, women, and couples. In this episode, Paul shares the personal journey that led to the ministry, and Niki introduces her connection to Paul and his family.

Care for the Pastor Behind the Ministry
If you’re carrying a hidden struggle, marriage difficulties, or grief, you don’t have to face it alone. Care for Pastors provides confidential counseling, coaching, encouragement, and support for pastors and their families.
Visit careforpastors.org and select Get Help to begin a conversation.

Coming in Part Two
Paul and Niki return to continue their story. We’ll hear more from Niki about her own journey and how their lives came together.

Subscribe to the Care for Pastors Podcast so you don’t miss Part Two.

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Host: Robby Bolden
Guest: Brian Daniel, Senior Director of Church Strategy for Lifeway Christian Resources

Pastor, you spend your life helping others grow in their faith—but who’s helping you grow?  In this episode, Robby Bolden sits down with Brian Daniel for an honest conversation about personal discipleship, spiritual growth, and cultivating a disciple-making culture in the church.
Drawing from his own journey and decades of experience at Lifeway, Brian shares how mentors and everyday relationships shaped his faith. Together, Robby and Brian explore why pastors need people who encourage and challenge them, how ministry responsibilities can crowd out personal growth, and why becoming more like Christ must remain at the heart of discipleship.

In This Episode
 Why discipleship is a lifelong journey, even for experienced ministry leaders
 Surrounding yourself with people who model faith, challenge you, and encourage growth
 Recognizing the difference between growing in leadership skills and growing in
Christlikeness
 Protecting time and space for your own walk with Jesus
 Practicing discipleship at home through everyday conversations and prayer
 Leading from an active, personal relationship with Christ
 Looking beyond attendance and activity for evidence of spiritual maturity
 Evaluating whether church programs support disciple-making
 Finding encouragement and support when the responsibility of ministry feels
overwhelming

Key Takeaways
Your own discipleship matters.
Pastors need to participate in the journey they invite others to take. Knowledge, experience, and communication skills cannot replace an ongoing walk with Jesus.
Growth happens in relationships.
Trusted mentors and friends help us recognize blind spots, navigate challenges, and respond to God’s work in our lives. Pastors need that community too.
Programs should serve discipleship.
Strategies and resources can help, but the goal is people becoming more like Christ. Healthy relationships, love for one another, and conversations about God’s work offer meaningful signs of growth. You don’t have to carry the responsibility alone. Brian encourages pastors to be honest with themselves and trusted people around them, acknowledge what is difficult, and receive help.

Questions to Consider
 Who is helping me grow as a disciple of Jesus?
 Is my learning drawing me closer to Christ?
 What is God doing in my life right now?
 Which ministries in our church are helping people grow—and where do we need to ask harder questions?

Resources Mentioned
 Lifeway Research’s State of Discipleship research
 Wait Here by Robby Gallaty
 Replicate Ministries
 Lifeway’s equipping team, led by Chad Higgins

Care for the Pastor Behind the Ministry
You spend so much of your life caring for others, but you need care too. Care for Pastors provides confidential counseling, coaching, encouragement, and support for pastors and their families.
Visit careforpastors.org and select Get Help to connect with someone who can walk alongside you.

Coming Next
Join us next week as we begin a two-part conversation with Paul and Niki Speed of Whatever It Takes Ministries about hidden struggles, honesty, God’s grace, and the hope of healing.

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How can pastors honor the ministry of those who came before them while preparing the church for those who will follow?

In this episode, Robby Bolden talks with Cliff Lea about navigating pastoral transitions with humility, patience, and mutual respect. Cliff shares lessons from following a beloved pastor who served for nearly thirty years, building relationships with an established staff, and embracing the church’s commitment to serving its community.

The conversation also explores the impact of Cliff’s father, Tommy Lea, the needs of a pastor’s family during transition, and how outgoing pastors can encourage their successors while giving them freedom to lead.

In This Episode
 00:28 — A father’s lasting influence: How Tommy Lea’s faith and example shaped Cliff’s life and ministry.
 04:07 — Following a longtime pastor: Honoring a predecessor and building on the ministry he established.
 08:06 — Understanding a church’s identity: Embracing community ministry, missions, and Christian education.
 12:49 — Transitioning as a family: How Cliff and his wife, Susie, experienced the move to Leesburg.
 15:43 — Earning the staff’s trust: Getting to know an existing team and approaching change patiently.
 36:17 — A predecessor’s public encouragement: How Pastor Charles supported Cliff’s leadership and the church’s expansion.
 38:27 — Preparing for the next generation: Thinking ahead about retirement, succession, and supporting a future pastor.
 43:39 — Input without control: Considering an outgoing pastor’s role in identifying a successor.
 45:12 — Remaining in the church after retirement: Practicing humility, respecting boundaries, and giving the new pastor space.
 49:39 — Helping a new pastor settle in: Practical ways churches can care for a pastor and his family.

Key Takeaways
Honor the ministry you inherit. Speak well of your predecessor, learn from his experience, and recognize what God has already accomplished through the church.
Understand the church before accepting the call. Cliff’s enthusiasm for community ministry and Christian education helped him embrace First Baptist Leesburg’s established identity.

Build trust through relationships and patience. Take time to understand staff members, their gifts, and their contributions before making changes.
Care for the whole family. A pastor’s spouse and children may adjust at different speeds. Kindness, practical support, and appropriate space can make a meaningful difference.
Prepare to encourage your successor. Healthy transitions require outgoing leaders to release control and incoming leaders to show respect.

Memorable Quotes
“I had the privilege of just trying to build on what the Lord did through him.”
“I want the new guy to feel free to lead … I want him to be able to be himself just like I was able to be myself.”
“Be patient, be generous and kind, help with what you can.”
“Let’s take God seriously but not take ourselves too seriously.”

Next Week
Brian Daniel from Lifeway Christian Resources joins Robby to discuss why pastors need to continue growing as disciples themselves, the relationships that nurture spiritual growth, and how to cultivate a disciple-making culture in the church.

You don’t have to walk through ministry alone. Care for Pastors is here to care for you as you care for others.

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In part two of his conversation with Danny de Armas, Senior Executive Pastor of First Baptist Church of Orlando, host Robby Bolden explores the practices that can either strengthen a ministry’s culture or slowly undermine it.
Danny explains how inconsistent decision-making, anecdotal evaluation, poor communication, and top-down leadership can create confusion and distrust. He also shares how First Orlando gives employees meaningful ownership through cross-functional “VIP teams,” clearly defined staff values, and the freedom to contribute their experience and ideas.
The conversation concludes with an honest discussion about difficult staffing decisions, recognizing misalignment, celebrating progress, and why pastors need safe relationships where they can care for their own souls.

In This Episode
Robby and Danny discuss:
 Leadership practices that can damage a staff culture
 Why decisions should be consistent, logical, and informed by reliable data
 The dangers of allowing the person with the most authority to dominate every decision
 Inviting input from employees who work closest to an issue
 How cross-functional “VIP teams” create ownership and accountability
 Why a team’s solution may be different from—and better than—the leader’s original idea
 Becoming value-driven instead of policy-driven
 First Orlando’s staff values: change agents, hero makers, team builders, people persons, first followers,
and tone setters
 Knowing when to coach, correct, or make a difficult staffing change
 How delaying a necessary transition can cause greater pain
 Taking time to recognize progress, celebrate the team, and give glory to God
 The importance of confidential pastoral care and coaching
Key Takeaways
Shared ownership builds trust. When staff members are invited to help develop solutions, they become participants in the mission rather than people who merely carry out decisions made above them.
Values empower people. Policies cannot anticipate every situation. Shared values give employees a framework for making wise decisions without asking permission at every step.
Misalignment should be addressed with courage and grace. Sometimes separation is the healthiest path for both the employee and the organization. Waiting too long can make an already difficult situation more painful.

Leaders must celebrate progress. Ministry activity can feel frantic while progress appears slow. Looking back helps teams recognize what God has done, thank the people who contributed, and find renewed energy for the work ahead.
Pastors need care too. Danny shares how Care for Pastors has given him a confidential place to lament, pray, process difficult experiences, and receive encouragement for his own spiritual health.

Memorable Quotes
“We don’t do things because the person with the most authority wants us to do them. We do them because they’re the best idea.”

“We want to be value-driven, not policy-driven.”

“Jesus didn’t come looking for leaders. He came looking for followers.”

“Take time to celebrate the wins you accomplish.”

About Danny de Armas
Danny de Armas has served at First Orlando since 2008 and is now its Senior Executive Pastor. He has served on several local and national boards, including the North American Mission Board, the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, and Best Christian Workplaces. Danny and his wife, Betsy, have been married for 42 years and have three sons and nine grandchildren.

Resources Mentioned
 First Baptist Church of Orlando
 Danny de Armas at Best Christian Workplaces
 Best Christian Workplaces
 Intentional Churches
 I Am a Follower by Leonard Sweet
 Care for Pastors

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Welcome to Season 4 of the Care for Pastors Podcast!

What does it take to create a church staff culture where people don’t merely work—but genuinely flourish?

In this opening episode of Season 4, host Robby Bolden sits down with Danny de Armas, Senior Executive Pastor of First Baptist Church of Orlando, for an honest conversation about trust, communication, organizational health, and the responsibility leaders carry for the cultures they create.
Danny shares how painful staff feedback at First Orlando became a catalyst for meaningful change. Rather than becoming defensive, leadership chose to listen. Through professionally administered staff surveys, greater transparency, shared decision-making, clearly defined values, and intentional celebration, they began rebuilding trust and creating a healthier staff culture.

In This Episode
Robby and Danny discuss:
 How difficult staff feedback exposed distrust and created an opportunity for change
 Why leaders must take responsibility for the culture their people experience
 How transparency and communication help rebuild organizational trust
 Why employee feedback must be followed by visible action
 Understanding what it actually feels like to work for you
 Hiring people who fit the culture—not simply people with the right skills
 Teaching staff when to talk and when to trust
 Using cross-functional teams to create shared ownership
 Becoming value-driven rather than policy-driven
 Knowing when to coach, correct, or make a difficult staffing decision
 Why delaying necessary staff changes can ultimately create greater pain
 The importance of recognizing progress and celebrating what God has done
 Why pastors and ministry leaders need safe, confidential relationships where they can process the pressures of leadership

Key Takeaway
Healthy staff cultures begin with healthy leaders.
Leaders cannot ask for honest feedback and then ignore what they hear. Trust grows when leaders listen humbly, communicate clearly, take responsibility, and demonstrate through their actions that people matter.

Danny also offers an important reminder about Christian leadership: Jesus didn’t first call us to be leaders; He called us to follow Him. Healthy Christian leadership begins with faithfully following Christ and then creating an environment where others can flourish.

Memorable Quotes
“If this is their reality, I have a responsibility to make it better.”
“The bigger an organization and the higher up you go, the harder it is to know what it feels like to be on the opposite side of you.”
“We want to be value-driven, not policy-driven.”
“Jesus didn’t come looking for leaders. He came looking for followers.”

About Danny de Armas
Danny de Armas serves as Senior Executive Pastor of First Baptist Church of Orlando and on the board of Best Christian Workplaces. He brings decades of ministry experience and a passion for developing healthy leaders, flourishing staff teams, and healthy church cultures.

Care for the Pastor Behind the Ministry
Danny also shares how Care for Pastors has provided him with a confidential place to process difficult ministry and leadership experiences.
Pastors spend their lives caring for others—but pastors need a safe place to receive care too. Care for Pastors provides confidential counseling, coaching, encouragement, and support for pastors and their families.
Visit careforpastors.org and select Get Help if you or your family need someone to walk alongside you. Subscribe to the Care for Pastors Podcast and join us for Part 2 of our conversation with Danny de Armas.

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In Part 2 of this powerful conversation, Tami Jackson shares what happened after the truth came out.

As she reflects on decades of marriage, Tami opens up about the complexities of accountability, leadership, and communication within a pastor’s home. She candidly discusses the unintended consequences of performance-based expectations, the challenges of misunderstood submission, and the long-term impact of unresolved patterns in marriage.

Then, in a deeply emotional turn, Tami recounts the sudden and unexpected loss of her husband—and how God met her in the middle of overwhelming grief. Through her story, we see a powerful picture of God’s faithfulness, the importance of spiritual and practical preparation, and the sustaining hope found in Christ.

This episode is a raw and redemptive look at marriage, loss, and the grace of God that carries us through it all.

Key Topics Covered

• Why some marriages struggle to heal even after truth is revealed
• The dangers of unhealthy or misplaced accountability in marriage
• Misunderstandings of submission and their long-term effects
• The tension between public ministry life and private family reality
• Why seeking help (like counseling) matters sooner rather than later
• The sudden loss of a spouse and navigating grief with faith
• Financial stewardship and preparation for pastors and their families
• Parenting, legacy, and rebuilding relationships with children
• Living authentically in ministry instead of maintaining a façade

Key Takeaways

• Healing requires more than honesty—it requires intentional change and wise help
• You teach people how to treat you—healthy boundaries matter
• Accountability should be grace-filled, not performance-driven
• Pastors must lead their families with the same care they give their congregation
• It’s never too late to grow, but delaying healing has real consequences
• God’s faithfulness is most evident in life’s hardest moments
• Preparing financially and practically is an act of love for your family
• Being real in ministry creates space for true healing and connection

Notable Quotes

• “You do what you know until you know better.”
• “We lived in a way that wasn’t fully real—we kept up a façade.”
• “God’s faithfulness has been unbelievable.”
• “It’s always for His glory and always for our good.”
• “Be real as a pastor in life.”

Discussion Questions

1. Are there unhealthy patterns in your marriage that need to be addressed?
2. What does healthy, grace-filled accountability look like in your relationships?
3. Are you living authentically, or maintaining an image for others?
4. How prepared are you—spiritually and practically—for the unexpected?
5. In what ways have you seen God’s faithfulness in difficult seasons?

Resources & Next Steps

• Seek wise, biblical counseling early—don’t wait until patterns are deeply ingrained
• Evaluate your approach to accountability—ensure it’s rooted in grace, not performance
• Begin or revisit financial planning as a way to care for your family
• Invite honest, safe relationships where you can be fully known
• Spend time reflecting on God’s faithfulness in your own life

Final Encouragement

No marriage is perfect, and no story is without struggle—but God is faithful in every season. Whether you’re walking through healing, hardship, or loss, you can trust that He is working for His glory and your good.

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In this powerful first part of our conversation, Tami Jackson shares the moment that changed everything—a phone call to her husband after ten years of marriage, finally revealing a painful secret she had carried since childhood.

Tami opens up about the impact of sexual abuse, how unprocessed trauma shaped her view of intimacy, and the silent ways it affected her marriage, communication, and relationship with God. Together, we explore the danger of living in hiddenness, the pressure of performance-based faith, and how even well-meaning accountability can become harmful when it lacks grace and understanding.

This episode is a raw and honest look at what happens when pain is buried—and why healing begins with telling the truth.

Key Topics Covered

• The breaking point that led to Tami’s life-changing phone call
• The long-term effects of childhood trauma on marriage and intimacy
• Living on someone else’s faith vs. owning your relationship with Christ
• How hidden struggles impact communication and connection in marriage
• The difference between healthy and unhealthy accountability
• Performance-based spirituality vs. grace-filled growth
• Why honesty is the first step toward healing

Key Takeaways

• Unresolved trauma doesn’t stay hidden—it shows up in our relationships
• Silence and secrecy can quietly damage even strong marriages
• Intimacy struggles are often rooted in deeper emotional or spiritual wounds
• Accountability without grace can feel like control rather than care
• You cannot experience true healing without honesty
• It’s never too late to begin addressing the past

Notable Quotes

• “I was living in a lie.”
• “I can’t live like this anymore.”
• “I wasn’t growing—I was living on someone else’s faith.”
• “It wasn’t a bad marriage—it just wasn’t as good as it could have been.”

Discussion Questions

1. Are there areas of your life where you’ve been hiding instead of being honest?
2. How might past experiences be shaping your current relationships?
3. What does healthy, grace-filled accountability look like in your life?
4. Are you pursuing your own relationship with Christ, or relying on someone else’s faith?

Resources & Next Steps

• Consider speaking with a trusted counselor or mentor if this episode surfaced personal struggles
• Begin a daily rhythm of personal time with God—not out of performance, but relationship
• Invite safe, grace-filled accountability into your life

Next Episode

What does healing actually look like after the truth comes out?
 How do you begin to rebuild trust, intimacy, and a healthy relationship with God?

Join us next week for Part 2 of Tami’s story—where the journey toward healing and restoration continues.

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In this episode of the Care for Pastors Podcast, Robby Bolden sits down with John Harvey to reflect on a lifetime of ministry. With over three decades of experience, John shares an honest and deeply personal look at the challenges, temptations, and triumphs that come with faithfully serving in pastoral leadership.

This is not a polished highlight reel — it’s a real conversation about endurance, failure, growth, and the grace of God that sustains pastors over the long haul.

🔎 In This Episode, We Discuss:

• What it really takes to last 30+ years in ministry
• The tension between ministry calling and family priorities
• How pride and insecurity quietly shape leadership decisions
• The pain and reality of betrayal in ministry
• Navigating seasons of discouragement and burnout
• Guarding your heart against long-term temptation
• The importance of community, accountability, and trusted relationships
• Lessons learned through failure, not just success
• Why finishing well matters more than starting fast

💡 Key Takeaways

• Longevity in ministry is built on faithfulness, not fame.
• Your family is your first ministry — neglecting them comes at a cost.
• Pride and insecurity are subtle but dangerous companions in leadership.
• Isolation makes pastors vulnerable; community strengthens resilience.
• Betrayal is painful, but it doesn’t have to define your story.
• By God’s grace, it is possible to finish well.

❤️ A Word to Pastors

If you’re in a hard season…
 If you’re carrying wounds no one else sees…
 If you’re questioning whether you can keep going…

This episode is a reminder that you’re not alone.

The road of ministry is long, and it’s often difficult — but it is also deeply meaningful. And as John shares so honestly, despite the hardships, the journey is worth it.

Care for Pastors Podcast — because those who shepherd others need care too.