Carrot and Stick

AI is moving faster than most recruitment and staffing businesses can keep up with and the leaders who don't act now risk being left behind for good.
In this episode of the Carrot & Stick Podcast, host Derry sits down with Rob; a 25-year recruitment industry veteran who spent 17 years building his own agency before pivoting hard into AI, now running his own AI consultancy, Lyra Labs. Rob has spent the last two years coaching C-suite leaders, board members, and VPs across some of the biggest firms in the world, and he's blunt about what he's seeing: a huge knowledge gap, a lot of hype fatigue, and businesses that are 12-24 months behind without realising it.

David Annable bootstrapped Franklin Fitch from a one-man office in Windsor to 65 people across London, Cardiff, Frankfurt and Austin - but only after his first business failed.

In this episode, David joins Derry to unpack the lessons from 15 years of building an international recruitment firm: why he launched in Germany first, how you keep one culture alive across three countries, the "commitment culture" non-negotiables he hires for, and why Franklin Fitch invites failure - as long as it's the micro kind.

They also get into AI adoption without the hype, the pivot to predictable revenue that drove the firm's best-ever quarter, and the pre-mortem exercise David swears by for anyone thinking of starting their own agency.

Hosted by Derry Holt, CEO & Co-Founder of OneUp Sales.

What if the corporate leadership playbook has it all wrong?

In this episode, we sit down with Charlie Ginzburg, Managing Director at Michael Page overseeing Chicago and LA, to break down the hard truths of scaling a recruitment operation. From his early days as a cigarette salesman to managing a team of 120 people, Charlie shares a masterclass on what it actually takes to build a sustainable, long-term career in the industry.

We dive deep into why he openly champions "micromanagement" (hint: it’s not what you think) and why he believes corporate professionals secretly crave structure over unguided freedom.

Whether you're an individual contributor wondering if management is the right path, or an agency founder struggling to scale past the 30 employee mark, Charlie’s contrarian perspectives will challenge how you look at corporate growth

Key Topics Covered:

• The Big vs. Small Recruitment Debate: The fallacies of startup agility vs. the massive long-term resource advantages of a PLC.
• Eating the "Boring Salad": Why true discipline within your niche requires turning down short-term wins for long-term equity.
• The Case for Micromanagement: How providing intense framework and structure actually empowers teams and accelerates trust.
• Are Big Billers "Terrorists"? Navigating the delicate balance between catering to high individual contributors and maintaining company standards.
• The Three Distinct Jobs: Transitioning from the "selfish" mindset of a biller, to the "selfless" role of a manager, to the long-term vision of a director.

• 🔔 Subscribe for more deep-dive interviews with recruitment leaders.
• 💬 Drop a comment below: Do you agree with Charlie’s take on structure, or do you prefer total autonomy?

Connect with us:

• 🔔 Subscribe for more deep-dive interviews with recruitment leaders like Charlie.
• 💬 Drop a comment below: Do you agree with Charlie’s take on structure, or do you prefer total autonomy? Your voice matters, and we'd love to hear it!

We took Carrot & Stick on the road to the Recruitment Agency Expo 2026. We grabbed the mics, and asked 10 of the industry's sharpest leaders the same 5 questions — on top-biller habits, AI, the human touch, and how they'd start an agency today.

Rapid-fire, honest answers, with Derry's take after each. The one thing they all came back to? Relationships.

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🎙️ Hosted by Derry Holt, CEO & Co-Founder of OneUp Sales.

👉 Enjoyed it? Follow the show and leave us a rating — it helps more recruiters find us.

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OneUp Sales helps recruitment and sales teams make performance visible, motivating and repeatable — live leaderboards, competitions, dashboards and reporting in one place.

Book a demo: https://oneupsales.com/request-a-demo

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Timestamps:

00:00 — Intro: why we did this

01:06 — What habit would you take from a top biller and give to a rookie?

05:55 — What's one thing about recruitment you hope NEVER changes?

08:34 — What's one thing you hope DOES change?

12:22 — What's the biggest challenge facing recruitment over the next 12 months?

18:15 — What advice would you give someone starting an agency today?2

0:41 — Final thoughts

#Recruitment #RecruitmentAgency #Sales #SalesLeadership

Recruitment has always rewarded specialists — but how do you stay niche when you're scaling across multiple markets? On this episode of Carrot & Stick, host Derry Holt sits down with Chris Atiyah, CEO and Co-founder of Engtal — a Chicago-based firm that has scaled to 50 people across three specialist brands with zero attrition in over eight months.

Chris shares his journey from Portsmouth to the Midwest and how a relentless focus on the right people, the right markets, and the right technology has built one of recruitment's most quietly impressive businesses.

If you want to know what a successful, AI-enabled recruitment business looks like in practice, this episode is for you.

How do you build a recruitment agency that not only scales but survives the founder’s eventual exit? On this episode of Carrot & Stick, host Derry Holt dives deep with Sam Crisp, the former founder of the highly successful SaaS recruitment agency, Arama. Sam shares his explosive journey of growing a business to 60 people and then making the strategic decision to step away. The discussion tackles the critical mistakes in early-stage scaling, the hidden dangers of the 'shiny client' syndrome, and why process, systems, and data integrity are the true architecture of long-term success.Discover the framework Sam now uses at his new consultancy, Axonas, to optimize internal talent teams—lessons learned directly from a decade on the front line.

Martin Doig and Robbie Sturgess, founders of Verto People, join Derry Holt to explain how their 99% perm agency not only survived a pandemic launch but rapidly scaled to 38 employees by prioritizing relentless daily Business Development (BD) over fleeting contract trends.They share their controversial stance on cold calling, detail their data-driven hiring methodology, and unpack the crucial lessons learned from scaling too fast into unfamiliar markets like Germany.Key Takeaways:- "Cold Calling is alive": The controversial view that BD must be done every day, non-negotiable.- The Data-Driven Hire: Using psychometrics to vet recruiters for sales aptitude, resulting in an 80%+ success rate.- Scaling Lessons: Why they intentionally pulled out of the German market and software niches to focus resources entirely on explosive US engineering growth.- The 8-Touch Rule: How Verto ensures success by following a highly targeted, multi-touch BD process for every single candidate.

Derry Holt talks with recruitment ops expert Saeed Bhor about the common operational mistakes agencies make. They cover the crucial difference between performance and recruitment data, why "process over tech" is his mantra, how to navigate the crowded Rectech market, and what to look for in a consultant. An episode packed with practical advice for improving agency efficiency.

Derry Holt chats with Laura Clark, owner of OA Recruitment Solutions. Laura shares her journey from a Yellow Pages start to buying out her mother's £20M turnover business. They dive into OA's unique "Back on Track" performance plans, her "magnet" hiring philosophy, the importance of L&D, and her take on remote work. A truly insightful episode on leadership and culture.

Derry Holt talks with Elliot Dell, CEO of Salt Recruitment Group, about their unique global M&A expansion model, the power of authentic founder-led branding, his journey into coaching, and a practical take on AI in recruitment. An inspiring episode on building a global business with heart and vision.