Celeste Berke

By Celeste BerkeBusiness

Celeste Berke episodes

November 22, 2024Ep: 26 - The Secret to B2B Success- Don’t Fall for This Sales Trap!
In this episode of The Sales Edge Podcast, host Celeste dives deep into the challenges and misconceptions in B2B sales with special guest Mike Mulfelder, a seasoned fractional head of sales and Gap Selling advocate with over 35 years of experience. If you’ve been stuck in the same sales cycle or questioning why your pipeline forecasts are off, this episode will hit home.
What You’ll Learn:
Business Acumen Blind Spots: Why understanding how your customer makes money is the ultimate sales advantage and the key to building trust.

Pipeline Purge & Rebuild: How Mike has taken underqualified pipelines, reduced them by up to 90%, and rebuilt them into revenue-driving machines.

Stop the BANT Obsession: Why traditional qualification methods like BANT don’t work and how to shift your focus to uncovering actionable problems.

Tech Won’t Save You: The pitfalls of relying on AI and technology to mask broken processes, and why fixing the fundamentals is essential for scaling.

The Competitive Replacement Myth: Why trying to replace a competitor is often a trap that distracts teams from truly winnable deals.
Key Moments:
[00:05:00] Business Acumen 101: Mike shares the importance of understanding your buyer’s financial ecosystem and how it influences purchasing decisions.

[00:10:00] The Catalyst Question: Why identifying the catalyst for change is more critical than tracking surface-level pipeline metrics.

[00:19:00] Competitive Replacement Realities: The hard truths about why most competitive replacements fail and how to approach these deals more strategically.

[00:29:00] Call Coaching & Accountability: How a single bad sales call can derail progress—and why leadership must prioritize coaching and honest accountability.
Takeaways for Sales Leaders:
Don’t confuse pipeline volume with qualified opportunities.

Technology isn’t a fix-all; it amplifies your processes—good or bad.

Focus on foundational strategies that align with your growth objectives, rather than flashy shortcuts that won’t move the needle.
Mike’s Sales Edge:
Mike’s unyielding honesty and commitment to empowering others set him apart. He shares why being straightforward, even when it’s uncomfortable, is the true mark of a sales leader who wants their team to succeed.
PS: Check out Mike’s recent article on the “Magic Bean” myth in sales to dive deeper into how tech obsession is steering teams off course.
This episode will challenge the way you think about sales strategy and leave you asking the tough questions about your own processes. Don’t miss it!
43 min
September 07, 2024 Ep 25: From Office Hopping to LinkedIn Stalking: How the Game Has Changed for Hospitality Sales with Caleb Rice
[00:00:00]
Celeste Berke Knisely:Hello, hello. It's Celeste Berke Knisely on the Sales Edge Podcast. I am joined by Caleb Rice. We had an awesome opportunity to meet in person. We're both sitting here in Colorado, but a couple of weeks ago we met in person in San Diego and he was just such a breath of fresh air and hilarious to boot one some dollars as being like one of the most engaged people in the class and I thought he'd be a great person to have a little chat with.
What's changed in the industry as it relates to our buyers and sellers. Caleb, tell us a little bit about your background.
Caleb Rice:Thank you so much for doing this and having me on. But also first off, thank you so much for coming out to RBI and helping our team with our training. It was a very informative and very helpful. I know for myself, but also for the rest of the team every day. We have our team chats and everyone's bringing something else up about the training [00:01:00] that they learn and what they're using to source and prospect and all the fun things.
So thank, thank you for, for doing that. So yes, Caleb Rice I've been in the industry for a little over 16 years now from Oklahoma, moved out to Colorado for my first job right out of college. I started at the Broadmoor where I started in food and beverage, worked my way up into sales.
And most recently I left the Broadmoor at the end of January of this year as director of national sales. The insurance and incentive markets and then joined the Rancho Bernardo in team in San Diego, working fully remote, staying here in Colorado as director of national accounts for the Mid Atlantic, Northeast and the international markets.
Celeste Berke Knisely:And what we're talking about here is, how can you be in hospitality and selling a luxury property and you're not there at the [00:02:00] property? You are remote. That has been a huge change in the industry. I've been in the industry since.
I won't even date myself, but let's just say 20 years, we would never allow a salesperson to work remote. And nowadays you're actually seeing this happen. Tell us what that switch from on property to remote has been like for you.
Caleb Rice:Yeah, no, you know, it, it was interesting because in my mind previously being in an office setting. For a good 10 years every day of my life, literally 7 to 10 minutes south of my house. You're just in that bubble of, oh, this is, this is what's happening. This is how it is. This is what's going on.
Everybody else is doing it. Nobody else is working remote. And then as I travel and go to conferences, you know, just talking to industry. friends and [00:03:00] industry colleagues, let alone planners. And I'm just finding this overwhelming growth of, Oh, I work from home. Oh, I've worked from home for years. So then I'm thinking, am I the only one that's not working from home?
It's just weird, you know, and interestingly enough, once the pandemic came and went, now it's a thing of the past, people are still working from home. A lot of, a lot of trends and things that you see is like, Oh, everybody's coming back to the office. Are they really, because I'm working on some sales calls next week for New York and a whole company is fully remote and I'm like, okay, so then what, it's this New York address.
Oh, we still have the building, but nobody's there. So it's just this different perception of what used to be compared to the reality of what is now. I used to think like, Oh no, home is not my productive place. Work is my productive place. Well, now with the switch, I find that I [00:04:00] get more done here at home because it's quiet.
It's me and the dogs. Nobody's coming in my office 15 times within an hour. Like I can actually focus on what I'm supposed to be doing. So it is great, but it's, it's all a mindset. And it's also fun to work fun clothes and shorts and, you know, dress
Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, nobody knows, but I'm wearing like green, green shorts on her. I don't even match, but nobody knows. They can't see it. In the wintertime, I'm in sweat pants or maybe PJs, but what's interesting is kind of the shift and we're seeing it on the buyer side as well as the seller side where hospitality companies
have to, they have to, let me stress that, adapt. I like to say adapt or die, but it's true. Our old school laurels of how we've always done stuff like sales blitzes, riding the elevator, going to visit people, like. Times have changed. And when I worked with your team, I really opened up their eyes to this like digital shift where a [00:05:00] lot of sales and a lot of sales conversations happen on a digital channel, whether that's LinkedIn, whether that's the Facebook or instant message texting.
I mean, I, I came from the time and you did too, especially at like luxury, you do like YouTube. That's taboo to text somebody. And now we are texting with buyers colleagues, whomever. All the time. So this shift, let's say in meeting our buyers where they are, you mentioned before we hit record, like part of the problem with the industry is we need more business.
We need more visibility. We need more people to know who we are, but our buyers are no longer in the traditional places where they used to be. So I can't visit them with ease. How are you managing that transition from. not being able to go to a company and have a planned visit, but now having to have these conversations online and [00:06:00] still drive the outcomes.
How have you managed that knowing that you were in the thick of like, we only meet in person before to now we'll meet over teams or zoom wherever you are. Yeah. Hmm.
Caleb Rice:You know, and, and I think you, you made a good point just then you have to meet people where they're at. And that's on a whole multiple levels, whether it be physically, whether it be, hey, I am stressed to the hilt and I cannot meet with you until X day. Okay, that's something as well. So. seeing a need, feeling a need, hearing a need, but then also coming at it with a solution as well.
And not just one, but kind of backup solutions. Okay. If this one doesn't work, what are we going to backfill it with? What, whether that's finding your clients, Hey, we're both going to the same conference. I noticed on your professional Facebook LinkedIn wall that you're going to be attending [00:07:00] XYZ conference.
I myself will be attending XYZ conference. I would love to buy you a coffee. Let me know what your availability is. Here's my cell phone number, you know, and then pop it into a text message, which again is very odd to be texting a client unless a client is a friend. It just seems weird. Like we need to be on the phone.
We need to be emailing. What's this texting? What are we kids? But no, it's just meeting the client where they are. You find that, Hey. I work fully remote. Okay. Well, what city are you in? I'm in Philadelphia. Perfect. Well, this particular trip, I'm going somewhere other than Philadelphia, but I've now made a note in my system and changed your address that says Philadelphia.
So whenever I pull in a Philadelphia, Pennsylvania list, next time I find myself that direction, it'll populate and I can go see that client where she's at.
Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, and that's like, [00:08:00] that's such a good nuance, right? For salespeople. We can assume somebody is tied to their company, wherever their company headquarters is. That's just the building that has the sign on it. I think that's a great tip for sellers is really finding out from your buyers, especially if you're, Looking at bigger ticket items like a luxury experience, right?
A conference, a convention, an annual meeting, and you want to meet somebody in person because it is a big deal to them to plan an event. They're putting their personal brand on the line. They want to ensure that you can take care of them, that it. comes out successful, that you have experience in this and often those face to face, if you don't know where that person resides, you can't coincide it.
And I think a lot of people, salespeople sleep on that. They have no clue where buyers are these days and you can't take it for base value that where their company is, they're located there anymore.
Caleb Rice:Well, you know, and I think it's human nature that we thrive [00:09:00] on interpersonal like connections, right? And not having those face to face connections. Kind of steers us in a completely different direction. And so I also find on the same hand that a lot of planners, because they have a particular job that they are trying to successfully do, a lot of them are very analytical in the way that they do and think and everything.
And some people just might not want to talk face to face or see you or have you come see them. They only want to talk over email. They only want to talk over a phone. And then they come, they have an amazing, successful program and you either never hear from them again because they've moved on or you revoke them for a future program, but you also have to somewhat read in between those digital lines of finding that comfort zone with those planners because you can be hot to try and doing what you're supposed to [00:10:00] be doing and your leadership's telling you to get out there.
But you also have to be the realist of what's actually happening in your
Celeste Berke Knisely:Yes, and you touched on a good point there. We often talk from a gap selling lens about like sales is really helping. It's helping someone achieve, you know, where they are right now and their desired outcome. Should they change? Should they invest with you? Like why change going through this series of like a change management process?
And you hit the nail on the head of if you don't understand your buyer and especially in hospitality, which is like. A deluge of RFPs that come your way. And it's, it can be transactional, whereas like, okay, I want to respond because we all know time to respond to that RFP could make or break the decision.
But if we're not getting to know our buyer and those small nuances, like you just said, how do they prefer to be communicated with, I would bet like you're 16 years of [00:11:00] experience, like you have honed that And there are so many sellers out there that are probably like, Oh, I never even thought to ask about that.
But like what an awesome way to honor somebody who may be newer to planning. And it's like, dude, don't call me. Please don't call me. Don't even email me. Like my emails are overloaded. Whereas a more seasoned planner may want to like. Spend some time on the phone. They want to talk through things. But if you didn't ask that question, you wouldn't know how they want to be communicated with.
Caleb Rice:You know, it kind of reminds me, remember the colored bands you would wear whenever you would go to events during or right after the pandemic of people's comfort levels of interaction. Red means stay away, go back to your room. And it's just like, no red means you should have stayed home. Yellow was moderate.
Like, you know, we can give those fist bumps and those elbow tags and then greens are like, what's pandemic let's give a hug. You know, it's like [00:12:00] taking those colored bands and then just having to figure out what those color codes are from any little subtle hint you can pull from anywhere.
Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, totally. And, and really reading that buyer behavior, which we talked to your team about, it is getting so competitive out there, especially in the luxury market where individuals and companies are spending a lot of money more so for the experience, right? The unique factor, the amazing food and beverage, but as a seller, You have to show up and, and have those attributes as well.
And I think being a detective, picking up those key pieces of this person posted this, they like this online, they follow these people, like it helps you with those tiny little nuances as far as an amenity in the room or bringing up a conversation. And I would say. A lot of sellers miss that. How do you make sure?
In the class you were like, Hey, I'm, pretty savvy on the LinkedIn, [00:13:00] right? And I was like, all right, this guy's going to be a challenge, but even you walked away with like some nuances and then how to put things in chat, GPT, like all of these different tech tools that 16 years ago, if you told us we would have been doing, we're like, what? We're not doing that. We're not, we're still typing a
Caleb Rice:I, I still think back to like the golden rule, like doing others as you want to be had done to you. Like, How do I want to be communicated to? How do I want to be talked to? How do I want to be treated? Why wouldn't I want to then do the same to somebody else? And so whenever you're trying to gather all of this information as much as you can, as quick as you can, because you're right, a lot of times it's whoever's the first proposal in is the one that wins, you know, because it shows like you're right there.
You're so focused. But at the end of the day, you still have to make sure and balance it out that you're not [00:14:00] talking at a client or a potential client, you're talking to them. You know, it's, it's the whole thing of like, I hear you, but am I listening to you? You know, and so whenever I'm doing these searches and trying to find as much information as I possibly can, not only on a particular person that is the individual, but also on the company as a whole, whether it be using chat, GPT or LinkedIn or Nolan, you know, I have thousands.
Three great opportunities of sourcing agents right here at my fingertips and going down those rabbit trails. It's just, it's crazy how much information you can deduce just by a few little clicks because everything is on the internet, whether you want it to be or not, even home addresses. You know, I'm living in El Paso County, Colorado.
I'm always like, I wonder how much that house is. Well, let's go [00:15:00] to the county assessor website and then I find a name and I'm like, oh, I know this. That's where they live. Like everything is on the internet. Anybody can find anybody, but it's just taking the time and focusing in and honing in on what your need is and getting to that
Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, and it's about, you know, being a problem solver. And I love how you said like utilizing these digital assets as assists. I like to be like, it's the best unpaid assistant I have, right? When I really want to find out more information it's something I don't know because especially if you're looking at A board or an organization.
They all have desired outcomes money. They're trying to raise things are trying to accomplish and the Internet can tell you a lot about that. So you can weave that in when you're having a conversation and you. Ultimately, like a skyrocket, your own credibility as a seller versus what many of us were taught early on in the sales days, which was a form of [00:16:00] bant.
Like, Hey, what's your budget? I mean, we all know, you know, like I got a budget. But
Caleb Rice:like. You have your list of questions that you have to cover and it's just like, let's get outside of the box,
Celeste Berke Knisely:we all know budgets are broken. People often spend more than they thought because they're not educated or they just don't know. They don't even know what they're looking for. We have to help guide them.
Caleb Rice:or their budget is from 2015 and they still think that the world operates from nine years ago, like it,
Celeste Berke Knisely:Yes, things, things have changed. So looking at this through a lens of like a seller, what has been the biggest change over the past 16 years that you've seen as it relates to Putting yourself out there to build a network so that people talk about you when, when you're not in the room. [00:17:00] What has that shift been from when you first entered the industry till now?
Caleb Rice:So whenever I first rolled into sales in my first director role for the insurance and incentive markets, you know, the, the insurance world, the financial world, it, it's been said many times, so I'm not speaking out of turn. It's a very clicky industry. And if you're not in, you're not in, and that's just how, how it goes.
That's just kind of who they are. That's who they've always been. Hopefully one day that's not who they will be. But having to like find my way to navigate inside of that was probably the most difficult. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm a director of national sales. Look at this new title, mom. And then like, okay, I have all this support around me.
And now what are you do? [00:18:00] I can't even get a return phone call because they don't know me. And so I had to then find ways around that. And it's simply boiled down to just showing up. I would go to conferences. I would go to events. We would be in round table discussions. Questions would be asked. I would raise my hand and give an answer because the more that you can be seen and heard, the more people remember you.
Oh, it's that guy. I didn't like his answer, but it's that guy. You know what I mean? And so, regardless of what you're saying, People are seeing you. People are hearing you. And over time, nothing became something. So, you just have, you have to give it time. But, at the end of the day, be yourself. You can't, you can't force.
You can't force something that's not natural. You know, a lot of salespeople are good at what they do because it just comes [00:19:00] naturally to them. Talking to strangers, naturally to them. For my two and a half year old, I don't want that to come naturally to him. Me, as a not two and a half year old who's in sales, I want that to come naturally, you know?
And so, you just have to find your path and navigate down that path. But at the end of the day, you just be yourself, be yourself because it shows your genuine self of who you are and that People want to work with real, genuine people, not robot sales people that have a bullet point of lists of questions that they're just randomly spark, Oh, we're going to change up the order today.
Like no, nobody wants to work with a robot. They want to work with genuine,
Celeste Berke Knisely:Death to the qualification checklist that we all came up with. And, and I think that's what really drew me to you is I find myself an outlier too of, I all of a [00:20:00] sudden, you know, Not aware of everybody else that's in the room. And I'm like, I will raise my hand five times because I have a question. And I realized other people probably were thinking it too, or it sparks some conversation.
And I am totally there with you as of, you know, 15, 16 years ago, you'd go to an event and you'd say like, gosh, some, everybody knows that person. And when you're just starting out, it can feel uncomfortable to put yourself out there, to build your personal brand and. And you're out there doing that, right?
And it was very apparent of like how genuine and authentic you are. And as a result, people speak your name when you're not there and refer you. You got this new job because of someone you knew that you worked with. It is about creating those connections that are lasting, that aren't transactional. And that's what our sellers look for as well.
Is this person trying to sell me something or are they actually trying to help me?[00:21:00]
Caleb Rice:No, absolutely. Are you in it for the hard sell the soft sell? You know, at the end of the day, I'm in it for the cell. But if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be. You know, you're you're busy. Planners are busy. I'm busy. We're all busy in today's world with everything that's going on that. Hey, I can take a no.
But just tell me the no, you know what I mean? Don't skirt around, lead me on for months on end without, without any opportunity from the get go that it was even happening. But because you feel bad and don't want to be honest because you don't want to let me down, you now string me along ultimately to let me down.
I'm a grown man. Give me your honest feedback. And there's a fly in
Celeste Berke Knisely:think from, you know, having little ones in our house, we realize they will tell you the honest truth and you just take it. My [00:22:00] daughter's latest one is telling me how big my butt is and I'm like, all right, I guess that is the truth through a five year old's eyes. So it's those, we often realize adults just had the vulnerability in the mouth of a small toddler.
I'm right there with you. Like it. Because we aren't attached to the outcome, it doesn't really hurt our feelings. All right, so as we get ready to close and wrap this up, I always ask guests two questions. One is, what is the myth in sales that you would like to go away, that you'd like to bust, you've heard it for 16 years, and you would like it to be done?
Caleb Rice:Oh, the, okay. This is a good point. Contracting. So there are so many companies out there, and I get it. I work for a company as well that we're all trying our best to protect our asset, which is our own individual company. [00:23:00] Whenever an RFP comes through, a beautiful proposal is sent by yours truly. They come back with more buying questions.
We play this tennis match back and forth, back and forth. Okay, I think we want to go to contract. Here's 13 pages of contract language that I need to be added to this, your hotel standard contract. And I'm late. 13 pages is double the size of my standard contract. It's pointless. And the majority of all of that language is already in my standard contract.
So instead of just going at it from the get go of saying, Oh no, if you don't use this language, we can't move forward with you, but have a conversation.
Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, why is that important to you that we use your contract like help me understand[00:24:00]
Caleb Rice:Formation is already in my contract. Let's, will you just review it first? So I would say,
Celeste Berke Knisely:you read it by chance?
Caleb Rice:yeah, yeah. Or again, are you just going down your bullet point list of crossing
Celeste Berke Knisely:Oh, I love that checklist can go both ways. We got to stop the both ways checklist from a buyer and
Caleb Rice:absolutely. Site side story real fast. I had a third party. A couple of years ago, negotiating a contract for a client. I'm pushing through, I'm pushing through, I'm pushing through. They're coming back, not agreeable, not agreeable, not agreeable, not agreeable. And I don't know what made me think of this because I'm, in my mind, the third party is working on behalf of the client, even though they're getting paid by me a commission.
So technically aren't they working for me anyway pushing through, [00:25:00] pushing through, pushing through. And finally, I just said, well, what does the client think about, because it was one specific clause, what does the client say about this? Well, they haven't even reviewed the contract yet, and we had been going at it for a good three weeks.
And I'm like, what, what do you mean they haven't reviewed the contract yet? Oh, well, as their representative third party, we do all of it and then present them with perfectly beautifully bow tied contract that says, just put your signature on here. We've done all the hard work so you can retain us for all the future years.
And so it's just like. Absolutely not. I am done talking about this until we get the client on the line. I said, let's call him. Let's get the client on the line because I'm pretty sure we're right where we need to be. And you're working now against the opportunity instead of helping [00:26:00] for the opportunity.
So it's just like, at the end of the day, if you could actually get to the client, I get it. Third parties. Thank you so much for bringing us the business. We wouldn't be where we are today without third party help. So we're very appreciative of that. Thank you for the assist. Now let me talk to the client and get us across the finish line.
Celeste Berke Knisely:We could go on that's a whole nother episode just in itself. All right last question is you are you're a unique individual What Is your sales edge, like what makes you unique as a seller?
Caleb Rice:Well, I think I already, I think I already hit on it and it's just being genuinely me at the end of the day. It's not this used car salesman. Let you want some snake oil today. I have it in 15 different colors and fragrances at the end of the day. You get me, [00:27:00] you know, and I just happen to be a smiling goofy face of a beautiful luxury resort in sunny San Diego.
So yeah, I'm unique. I'm unique to
Celeste Berke Knisely:Yeah, totally. And, and I loved the time with the team. I will echo, I think, you know, the majority of the team really. You know, dynamic personalities. You have people that have been not the majority like everybody is that is an individual, but there are a handful that really stuck out. I can see how you all gel and then going to the property.
I was like, oh, hello. This is where I want to come. It felt like I was in the middle of, like, a. Like, an oasis where I could meander and listen to the water, but also look at the golf course. And there were trees, like it, it, I felt calm. And that was very different from many experiences of when you go to a conference and you're sitting in a cold conference room and it's stark, people are talking at [00:28:00] you.
So I think what you guys have there is truly special. And I'm Here cheering you on, that you're able to work remote, not have to uproot your family that you worked so hard to build over these past couple of years and you were able to find a home and doing it remotely. Like who knew that that was the thing.
Caleb Rice:know it's like the best of both worlds and I get to travel to San Diego as often as I need to, let alone want to. So life is actually really good.
Celeste Berke Knisely:definitely. So hospitality. This is a testament to when we start to think outside the box and we have issues with talent, that once we stop putting people in that box and we look elsewhere, you can Get to the same desired results by thinking differently and Caleb is I think you're a couple of people before you worked remote and now your whole team is partially remote or or their hybrid, which [00:29:00] again is completely unheard of in this industry, but just goes to show that when you take care of employees and you look at them holistically, it can change the culture and the working environment.
Caleb Rice:I couldn't agree more.
Celeste Berke Knisely:I appreciate your time. It's, it's a pleasure. I'm looking forward to hearing about, about your travels. I know it's tough kneeling people down in big cities, but this is a PSA out there. If you are an event planner or you book meetings or large gatherings or events, and someone hits you up to wine and dine you, take them up on it.
Cause usually it's a great experience. You meet some amazing people along the way and those people are connected to other people just like Caleb. So appreciate your time here. And, and for those who aren't connected to Caleb and want to continue to follow your story, your advocacy for parental rights in the workplace and raising a child in today's day and age, [00:30:00] follow him on, on LinkedIn.
Caleb Rice:Thanks, Celeste.
31 min
September 02, 2024 Ep 24: In the Sales Leadership Trenches: Ditch the BDR Checklist and Start Leading Through Active Coaching
Sales strategies: "The majority of our our strategy, coaching up our team, account targeting, and and generating new business through outbound prospecting."— Maggie Maloney 00:00:3000:00:38
The Importance of Active Listening in Sales Conversations: "How do we earn trust? How do we get people to open up? It's through that active listening, maintaining conversational flow that we're really able to get deep within the business conversation."— Maggie Maloney 00:01:5800:02:09
Active Listening in Sales: "It's one thing to hear, but a lot of times, I think we hear we assume that we know what they are that we understand everything, but prospects always know a lot more about their world than they're even sharing on the surface level."— Maggie Maloney 00:03:3500:03:45
Role Playing Exercise for Sales Calls: "I think what happens a lot of time is we try and foresee, like, how is this conversation gonna go? And you have to kinda let go of those expectations."— Maggie Maloney 00:04:0200:04:11
Viral Topic: Authenticity in Role-Playing ScenariosQuote: "I think even when I role play with the team, it's I'm guiding the conversation through what I say because I know where I want them to go. But if we do it as a group in this way, it's like nobody knows what anyone's gonna say or ask. And it gives that a little bit more of a realistic scenario."— Maggie Maloney 00:04:3100:04:49
Viral Topic: The Art of Conversation in SalesQuote: "You can't. Like, it's you it's conversation. Like, it's conversation is not scripted."— Maggie Maloney 00:05:3100:05:33
Building Trust Through Active Listening: "you don't have to be liked, but it's through that active listening that you build that trust."— Maggie Maloney 00:06:2200:06:27
Viral Topic: Effective Communication"Maintaining that conversational flow and active listening by asking those questions and getting really, really curious without the script."— Maggie Maloney 00:06:5900:07:06
Improving Sales Conversations through Practice: "It's really through the practice. Right? Even as, like, one of the things I've seen over time is so it's been about 2 weeks. Well, mid mid July that we started, like, this really heavy, like, you know, what could you have asked to progress the conversation even with just, like, general objection handling, things like that, to really get their mind listening."— Maggie Maloney 00:07:3200:07:54
Overcoming Ingrained Habits: "It's so ingrained in us that it's hard live with a person, with a prospect on the phone to actually implement the things that you know you should be implementing because it's so it's been so ingrained. So that's the only that's the only thing that I found that is working, like, through that self coaching and then the practical application as a team and working through that that we've started to see those shifts in the calls that we're having."— Maggie Maloney 00:08:2500:08:55

Make sure to give Maggie a follow on LinkedIn!
About your host:
Celeste holds the designation of Certified Gap Selling Training Partner with A Sales Growth Company and works with teams to help them win more. With a knack for problem-centric discovery, Celeste leverages her own experience as an active seller building with over 23 years of experience in the Corporate Selling arena.
Her accolades include the Director of Sales of the Year award, 2x Manager of the Year, and being named 40 under 40 for the Triad Business Journal. Celeste also holds a certified sales designation from Marriott International and in 2023 was named one of the Top 15 LinkedIn Experts in Denver by Influence + Digest.
Celeste resides in Colorado with her husband and daughter.
Make sure to visit Celeste's Youtube and subscribe for short video clips so you can take action.
0 min
August 30, 2024 Ep 23: The CRM isn't the Only Way: How A Pearl Jam Post Landed Don (a Seasoned Hospitality Seller) a New Client From LinkedIn
0 min
July 22, 2024 Ep 22: React Less, Predict More: The New Era of Sales Enablement
Welcome to another episode of The Sales Edge podcast, where our host, Celeste Berke, dives deep into a thought-provoking discussion with the insightful Hannah Sabetti. In this engaging episode, Hannah shares her expertise in sales enablement and breaks down the myths surrounding the industry. From her years of experience in the SaaS, healthcare, and financial space, she unveils the holistic approach she takes to enablement, offering valuable insights into supporting sales and customer success teams. With a keen focus on empathy and understanding the human side of sales, Hannah provides a unique perspective on how to navigate the challenges of today's sales landscape. So, sit back and prepare to gain valuable knowledge and inspiration from this enlightening conversation on The Sales Edge.
Jump to a specific time stamp here!
00:00 Identifying gaps and enabling sales team success.
06:08 Identify gaps, investigate source, and prioritize impact.
06:58 Sellers understanding buyers' needs and gaps.
12:32 Empathetic approach to addressing feedback and struggles.
15:36 New enablement staff need time to ramp.
19:30 Different sales styles exist to meet needs.
23:20 Be succinct, try different ways, people matter.

27 min
June 13, 2024 Ep. 21: Hold My Pipeline: Sales Enablement Buy-in Secrets Exposed
Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:
Hello. Hello. Welcome to the Sales Edge Podcast. We are here with Candace who's in sales enablement. I'm really excited. I typically talk with either leaders or ICs. So this is my first foray into sales enablement, which has become a very hot topic on LinkedIn. Let's face it.
Celeste Berke [00:00:17]:
But what struck me about Candace and why I reached out is she is active on the LinkedIn platform talking about the misses in enablement, where we need to go as a collective sales community, and so we are going to dive in today. Candace, tell us a little bit about yourself and your role.
Candace [00:00:40]:
Yeah. So, I mean, first about me and, well, my wife and mom and lifelong enabler. And right now, where I'm focused the most is actually sales leadership enablement. So took the opportunity to work with a really great company who had awesome foresight into seeing some glaring challenges that we definitely need to solve.
Celeste Berke [00:01:02]:
Love that.
Candace [00:01:03]:
So Set the leadership level.
Celeste Berke [00:01:04]:
Granicus. Right? I love that nuance there. So, hopefully, the listeners and those who watch us on video from our homes will pick up on that nuance that Candace said. So sales leadership enablement. Candace, tell us about that shift and what you're seeing with most companies, where they're focusing, and where that tiny shift has come in for you.
Candace [00:01:29]:
Yeah. I think, historically, enablement focuses on the sales process, the sale, right, sales methodology, all things I see. Right? Which is which is great. It's important to support. But I think a key element that continually gets left out of that is how are we equipping sales leaders? And a a big portion to that and something I had shared on another podcast conversation was there's kind of a historical precedence of, you know, companies promoting top performers, right, with the idea that it's gonna translate immediately to a successful revenue or sales leader. And then we start to have challenges, and it's always why. And I think a big part of answering the why is looking at, well, how are we enabling our our leaders to lead, you know, especially our sales leaders? If we look at reasons why people leave companies, we know the data points. There's a lot of times they leave poor poor leaders.
Candace [00:02:36]:
And so I think for companies, there's a responsibility going forward to develop mature leaders, but just a responsibility to equip your leaders. You're investing in people and leadership. And to make that full investment, you need to make sure that they're equipped and enabled.
Celeste Berke [00:02:55]:
So something you said, really, it's something that our team, the ASG Gap Selling team has been perplexed about. We recently went up for a huge deal and it became glaring during the sales process that there was well, if we teach the ICs how to do that, everything is magically going to change. The pipeline will get better. Their win rate will improve. In our team, we're really focused on, it doesn't matter who comes in to train your sales team at this point. That's like the minutia. What we are seeing is a complete lack of ownership from the leadership level, enablement, sales leadership to say half of the onus is on us. So we can train a team to a methodology, to a process, but if we don't have any reinforcement and the sales leadership isn't willing to do that, like, heavy lifting every day of let me look at your opportunities, are we having pipeline meeting, 1 on 1 coaching to the skills level? Let me give you some areas of development, now practice, drills, and they turn their nose up late, and we don't wanna do that.
Celeste Berke [00:04:03]:
Nothing is going to stick. So how are you ensuring that you are equipping leaders to understand, like, how important it is to have their buy in?
Candace [00:04:19]:
It has to be we have to sell things internally just as much as we do externally. Right? And so the things that we can't forget, I think we often do, is that we think, oh, this is gonna be great. It's gonna be a behavior change. But if we're not demonstrating or providing the ROI versus, you know, cost of inaction or where the gap is to our sales, they're not bought in. They need to be sold to. They need to know what's in it for them. They need to know what they need to give up or what muscle to flex. Now to the ownership piece, this is really important.
Candace [00:04:56]:
There's this kind of funny back and forth of, like, who's who's coaching? Who's gonna own this? And everyone's passing the ball on the field, but nobody wants to kind of be the quarterback. Some of it's symptomatic of some external fear of not wanting to make a a bad decision, but some of it is about enablement and equipping. Some leaders have to start with some things like an operating rhythm. Like, how are you operating? You got a lot of meetings. But your time has to be spent with your team. So what's your operating rhythm between the meetings that you have and then setting up reoccurring time with your team and then team calls so that you're also even thematically, right, revisiting sales skills because coaching is a collaborative accountability. It's shared. So, you know, hate to spoil this for you.
Candace [00:05:45]:
It's not enablement's responsibility and sales agent's responsibility. As both. You know? And it's working together on that. We're gonna have the ownership, and we're gonna have an operating rhythm to reinforce the things that we see and partner on it rather than try to pull in each direction. That's it's something that I see over and over again. Right? It's this frenemy kind of behavior between enablement and sales. Right? And you even see some of the conversations, like, on LinkedIn that are a little bit wild in terms of either they didn't have an effective enabler or, you know, they had a sales leader who either was immature or didn't have scales and couldn't ask just didn't have the humility to ask.
Celeste Berke [00:06:36]:
The revenue speed model that talks about the importance of this shared responsibility across the revenue organization from it's not just skills development, that common DNA, then regardless of methodology, it has to be carried up through operation or, through the opportunity management and then through the forecast management layer. And that, yes, everybody operating from the same playbook, so to speak, so that one team isn't running off in one direction and another in another direction, but I think there is this, like, finger pointing, and I believe some of our language is like, it's not your fault. And even I think people are wondering, well, what isn't sales enablement? Where's the crossover between the IC and leadership? And if it doesn't work, is this sales enablement's fault? And I love how you said it. It's almost like a triangle, like a 3 legged stool of it's really everybody working together to figure this out, and that may look different from organization to organization based on the strength of the leaders that are in place.
Candace [00:07:40]:
Yeah. And how many leaders you have. Right? Maybe you have couple or maybe you have a larger leadership team. And with your leaders, you're gonna have them at different places in their leadership journey. Right? First time leaders have to get some basic frameworks in place. Right? Starting with one thing that I I think you have to start with is if you were going to step into a role where you're leading other people, you have to unpack your bias, and you have to go through that first, and you have to understand yourself and what your lens is. And listen. The first argument can't be, well, I'm not.
Candace [00:08:16]:
It doesn't always look like that. You know what's another fun word for bias? It's called preference. Right? And understanding how you operate and your lens because when you have a team of people, they've all come in with a different worldview, lived experience, and belief system than you. And so what you have to do when you look at that is meet them where they are, and you cannot do that. You cannot get to somebody else until you get over yourself and understand yourself first to meet somebody where they are. And so I think that's your first responsibility as a sales leader is, okay, this is the first thing I've gotta go through is at least some unconscious bias training. I've got to dig in with somebody about, you know, when do I get frustrated? When do I show up frustrated? What are gonna be some things that I'm going to react to versus respond, and how do I start to to work through that in helping, you know, assess other people's performance? Am I clear about how people are measured? Right, so that I'm not preferring certain people to other people? Right? Am I clear on how my sellers are going to be measured in the expectations, and then am I clear about how I'm going to be measured? What are they looking at qualitatively? What are they looking at quantitatively with, you know, attainment? So those are some of the first things you've got to step into as a leader and say, okay. These are the things I need to uncheck and be prepared with first, and then, you know, go from go from there.
Candace [00:09:55]:
Enablement from that leader perspective then is helping you get those tools in place, getting you a toolkit so you can start to step into that leadership role instead of going into it, trying to figure it out, and trying to do it the way you think you led or you performed as a seller.
Celeste Berke [00:10:18]:
Yeah. And so something I found interesting, I had large organization the other day who's contemplating a sales methodology and and, you know, which way do we go, a lot of misses, Horrible quota attainment. Right? Revenue declines. The pipeline's not there. Things have been in the pipeline for a couple of years years. Seller is not understanding the business problems. They're talking about product, yet there seems to be these silos. There's massive issues with forecasting, lack of adoption of the CRM.
Celeste Berke [00:10:52]:
And like you said, everybody starts doing their own thing. Mhmm. When you start to see that kind of people existing in silos, what is your best advice to kind of take a pause and bring everybody back together to the vision to move forward?
Candace [00:11:09]:
That's a really good question. One of the thing people need a vision to strive for and work to be done. And I think one of the jobs that of bringing people back together is having that vision and the CRO or whoever your sales executive is start getting in on that ground level again with communication. What's our vision here? What's in it for you? What are the expectations? And that starts to be the the verbiage and the narrative going forward, but making sure that you're connecting that vision to field level mission. Right? And field level mission is this is your role as a seller in executing on our vision and how we're going forward as a revenue organization. As a revenue organization, that means we need this and this to happen, and then it has to be repeated. Right? And then there has to be feedback loops around change management and how people are feeling and understanding that messaging. And so there's a lot more intentional communication that needs to happen to start getting that back on track.
Candace [00:12:20]:
And so really important after change has taken place in a revenue or for people or there's been growth and what operations and workflows worked before may not be working now. Right? Usually, what, you know, gets a company from a to b doesn't get you to c, right, when the growth is is a lot larger. You know? And you add people and things. It's just naturally gonna get a little bit more complex and layered. And so you just have to take a breath and and put clarity back into the air. I've
Celeste Berke [00:12:53]:
obviously talked with a lot of organizations who don't have someone in enablement, and it baffles me because I often to look as at enablement is kind of like this plays a mediator role sometimes between the 2. I see your vision. I see this. Let me help you synthesize it so that everybody feels like they've come to the table, they've been heard, and we make a plan to move forward where everybody can be in alignment. In your experience, I know you come from sales leadership. At what inflection point does the company miss out on not having someone enablement? Like, do you have any thoughts on size of the company, revenue, team, leadership when it's like, enablement here before you, you know, add more sales roles?
Candace [00:13:45]:
Yeah. I'm gonna say something probably really unpopular when it comes to this. I think enablement needs to be one of your more, early hires. You usually have people who are really good enablers. There's a couple people I would point to out in the community who are who are focused on who are really understanding of behaviors, behavior change, and change management. And so I think having somebody early on in an organization, also, that gives you leverage to help grow with an organization. Right? But you're gonna have to have somebody who can not only facilitate change, but is also able to spend time building and get some of those things that are needed in place as well. So you may have a little bit of a different skill set initially where their, you know, enablement of 1 is you're a therapist, you're a builder, you know, you're you're you're you're an operations leader.
Candace [00:14:43]:
Right? But I think getting enablement early on helps build more of a strategic partnership, also helping to get clarity. A lot of times what happens in an organization is people are saying the same things, but they're expressing them differently based on their lens and their role. Right? And so I think really good enablers can hear patterns and hear themes and go, this is what we're saying. Right? And just like you said, synthesizing, distilling that information and go, this is about you know, we're if we're in a revenue organization, we have to move a line, right, for it to be successful and to create an ecosystem for our our sales leaders to lead and for our sellers to sell. And so us trying to pull in multiple directions is really futile a lot of times when and, essentially, what is our goal to do as an organization? Drive revenue. Right? Create a customer experience that is important. What gets in the way of that is the self. Right? And The ego.
Candace [00:16:01]:
Not being heard. Yes. And not being heard. Right? And I think really good enablers being in can hear things, can sit and listen, observe really well, you know, behaviors and things that are happening, go, you know what? Here's what this person's saying and this person's saying. We're on a similar track. Let's and and kind of redistill that communication.
Celeste Berke [00:16:28]:
Some conversations I've been having with those in enablement who, in their organization, specifically, appears very reactive. We're seeing this symptom of the team having a low win rate. So I need you to now go make some training around how they can improve their win rate. Now go do that and come back. And to me, that feels like very reactive versus, like you said, everybody coming together to say, what's going on? What are the behaviors? What is causing this? What is this stemming from? Just plugging in a training doesn't mean that our team is magically going to improve their win rates. And so I'd be curious as how do we move away from enablement being, like, very reactive to having a seat at the table and being proactive for the strategic
Candace [00:17:24]:
vision. That's yeah. Proactive is something I think we hear a lot. I've experienced it myself. I think you experience it initially when you're going through change as an organization. You're more reactive. Right? You're focused on lagging indicators instead of getting to that place of leading. And it takes a little it's gonna take a little bit of muscle.
Candace [00:17:47]:
It's gonna take saying no. It's also gonna I ask really hard questions, and I'm and and so I I put a lot out there to go, are we answering this? Because one thing I think is the miss on that and why we get reactive is because we don't agree on the problem first. Right? And I think the first responsibility is we've gotta come together and go. Are we identifying the problem? Right? People are really solution focused. Right? We talk about all the time, like, in the greater sales community. Product, product, product. Right? Slap some technology on it. Right? You know, it's it's kinda like if you've ever it it's just like that's gonna be the the catchall solution.
Candace [00:18:35]:
Right? Instead of a Band Aid, it's like slap some technology on that baby. Right? And we're but but we're trying to say, you know, do some technology when we have people issues. Right? And the core of the people issue is, are we clear on the problem? So really good training, really good enablement, really good sellers are fixated externally on problems in other people's businesses. But internally, we've gotta exercise the same sales acumen. Are we clear and aligned on the problem? Right? Now we can execute whether there's really a need for training and whether or not this is a fix, you know, within our own ecosystem before we're requiring a change in behavior. Right? We don't we don't do that. A lot of times, we just go fix the behavior. You know? We want other people to change.
Candace [00:19:29]:
I don't need to change, but I need you to change. Right? We do so hard.
Celeste Berke [00:19:34]:
We had a team meeting on Monday, and it's funny for as much as we talk about problem centricity, we too got caught up in the, like, well, here's all the ways that we can fix it and what we can do. And Keenan kept honing us back like, okay. What problem are we trying to solve here? Like, what is the problem? Speak to me in the problem. And we're all like, oh, we just all jumped to the solution, like, trying to fix it. So I think you're spot on that Mhmm. Get really good about doing that externally, but internally, we forget that just because we make a change here, it doesn't really mean it's going to really impact what's going on. It becomes that Band Aid. Mhmm.
Celeste Berke [00:20:14]:
And I think that's why we hear a lot of times like, well, sales training doesn't work. A methodology, like, a checklist, it doesn't work. And it's like, well, it doesn't work because maybe we didn't address the the problem that actually was at hand, but We don't understand the problem. There is an alignment on the problem inside the organization, and thus, it's just we just added more. We just clapped some some lipstick on on the pig like like the Band Aid. Where being a sales leader and then you went into enablement, like, where did you learn this? What was your inspiration? Where did you get training from that allowed you to move to where where you are today?
Candace [00:20:58]:
When I so the first time I was promoted to a sales leader, I was really terrible, and I was in my early twenties. And before that, I was actually a really terrible seller, and I was put on a pimp until I got some coaching. Right? But then once I got some co like, coaching, and I understood what I was doing, like, I ran with it, and then I got promoted because the one thing that's at my core is I truly love people, and it's in what I do, and that's just how I show up. But when I stepped into that leadership role, I managed to activity, and I drove my team, you know, bananas because I was like, how many dials did you make today? You know? And I was really fortunate because at the time, the the I start off in in higher education on in online. Right? Asynchronous learning, like, before it was cool, before. And, you know, the company had a the foresight then to hire a really phenomenal performance management team of just powerhouse women. And I had a performance management coach make some time with me and took me off campus to have a conversation, a real conversation, and asked for permission first. Like, do you want some feedback on how you're showing up as a leader? And at first, I was really kind of a jerk about it because I was like, I got promoted.
Candace [00:22:34]:
I'm here. I'm doing the thing. I'm the only, you know, I'm the only female with all these guys around. I'm doing it. And she was like, you're not doing it. I mean so she was like, but she was like, but I think you can be a really great leader. And she's like, it's not something that you have to know naturally. She's like, you gotta make a choice to learn it.
Candace [00:23:02]:
And that was everything for me. That literally changed a fundamental shift in I wasn't someone who knew what I wanted to be when I grew up. You know? I ended up in sales because I like to talk to people and you know? And it it's one of those things that kinda happened. But her mentorship was everything to me. I did turn things around, and then what we discovered was that I had a love for training, that I would lean in with my team. I would focus on, you know, giving them space to learn and then became more of a you know, my style of leadership is always training and an environment to learn. And then my team started doing really, really well. And it's because I had to demonstrate better behavior first.
Candace [00:23:49]:
And that's why I think enablement for a leader is so exponentially important because you demonstrate the behavior, and that always comes from leadership. Right? Like, you know, people just a lot of times in organizations, they see behaviors, and then they navigate them.
Celeste Berke [00:24:09]:
Like our kids.
Candace [00:24:10]:
And that's a really common You
Celeste Berke [00:24:13]:
see our kids. 100%. I say shit, and then my daughter's like, mommy said shit. Shit. Shit. Shit.
Candace [00:24:21]:
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. I can't I can't tell my son, no. You can't have that brownie, and then I go and eat the brownie because I want him to be better than me.
Candace [00:24:35]:
That doesn't work with any human ever. Right? Like, we just get we'll just get mad and resentful, and then we, you know, we rebel in our natural human so there's a whole lot of, you know, sociology and psychology to that. But at the end of the day, it boils down to, as a leader, what kind of behavior do you demonstrate to your team? And that's where enablement matters for a leader is how are you showing up day in and day out, how are you responding, and how are you treating each and every individual that is on your team.
Celeste Berke [00:25:12]:
I love that. And I love that someone took time out to help you versus going in the other direction of, like, you're not doing this. These are all the things that you're missing, and if only more people did that, you know, what what would this world look like? And I appreciate you sharing that. It's never easy when we have to peel back the layers of our similar to you, I was the first time leader, and I say, you don't know what I'm doing. You have to find your community of people who are gonna help build you up, and we're still learning every every single day. As we wind down, I always love asking guests 2 questions. 1 being, what's your sales edge? It's like, what what is your sales enablement edge? I think you've alluded to it, but I'd love to know in your in your own words, like, what's kind of that unique factor about you?
Candace [00:26:06]:
I would say I'm very observant. Like, I'm really keen in identifying behaviors, and I can unpack people and things really fast because I am insatiably curious. I have you know, asking hard questions and being able to I did talk a lot through this. You asked me questions, but, typically, I love to have conversations where I get to ask a lot of questions and learn about you and learn about people's stories. And so I think that me being observant and really listening to people and meeting them where they are has kind of helped me learn how to navigate business to where I'm observant, and I can pick up on things that people aren't paying attention to.
Celeste Berke [00:26:47]:
Well and I can tell just from this conversation, which is was all about you and your expertise as it should be, is just your level of, like, empathy, understanding, like, of human behavior, and then how do you meet people where they are in order so they feel heard, which is, we often talk a lot about of, like, don't lose your human in sales. Right? People wanna be heard, and when we go into that robotic behavior or we start doing things that we don't understand what the implications are. For example, I went a couple of years within an organization of having my 1 on 1 canceled for years every single week. Like, after a while, the story I told myself was, like, I'm not good enough. This isn't I'm not worthy of a conversation. Like, there have I learned everything I can? And I think that really shows, like, how much you truly care about people, but your willingness to also ask tough questions that may push people to grow. Because when we're really uncomfortable, hope that's typically when we accept it where growth happens. So what is one sales myth as as we close out here that if it could go away or you could bust, what would that sales myth be?
Candace [00:28:15]:
I would say that you have to be a certain that you have to be a top performer to be a good leader. I think that's definitely a myth. I think you have to now let's not make sure we twist something. I think you have to be able to be a good seller if you're gonna be a sales leader. Right? But I don't think you have to be a lone wolf, top performer. Right? And then that's gonna translate to success. Leaders are not born. They are learned.
Candace [00:28:46]:
And so I think that's really what it boils down to is that if you wanna be a good seller, it's a decision. It's a choice that you decide to make. The same applies for leadership. If you wanna be a good leader, choose to be 1 and do the work.
Celeste Berke [00:29:02]:
Well, on that note, that was like a a mic drop. It's been a pleasure. I hope for those who are watching this, you connect with Candace, and she puts out content, is very active on LinkedIn, sharing and in communities. And I'm sure if you are in sales enablement or are struggling in an organization and want to ask her a few questions, she will happily share her experience or how she does things. So it's truly been a pleasure having having you on, and I look forward to staying in touch.
Candace [00:29:36]:
Yes. Thank you, Celeste. I appreciate you inviting me into your space for the conversation, so thank you.
30 min
February 28, 2024 Ep20: Check-Out to Check-In: The Hotelier's Transition into Tech Sales, Parenthood, and Beyond with Jennifer Suski of HotelKey
Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:
Hello. Hello. It's Celeste Berke Knisely on the Sales Edge podcast. I'm joined today by Jen. And fun fact, Friday, we both come up through hospitality and hotels, and she works a lot from home in her bed. We decided we're both going to do this podcast from our beds today Casual Friday.
Jen Suski [00:00:21]:
And be comfortable. Maybe we have Some people wear Hawaiian.
Celeste Berke [00:00:24]:
Maybe we have PJ bottoms on. I don't know. We'll see. Jen, tell us
Jen Suski [00:00:29]:
a little bit about yourself. My name's Jen. I am director of business development for Hotel Key, which is a property management system. I come from Hilton Hotels. I have a long career in hospitality. I'm a mom of 2 amazing boys via embryo donation, and I am excited to talk to you.
Celeste Berke [00:00:49]:
Same. And we were chatting off air about everybody tells you as a female, don't get pregnant. From age 12 until age 18, it is basically you do not get pregnant. You do everything you can to not get pregnant. And we were chatting around how difficult it is to actually get pregnant as you let
Jen Suski [00:01:11]:
a boy sneeze in your direction. You'll ruin your life. As You're gonna get knocked up.
Celeste Berke [00:01:16]:
As you age. Yes. And so you are a fierce advocate, Kip, for talking about pregnancy. Getting pregnant is difficult. The amount of money that it costs in this country to go through the process, the emotional toll it takes on the relationship, on your work. So if if somebody wants to talk with you offline or your DMs open to chatting about those struggles,
Jen Suski [00:01:42]:
wide open. Wide open. It is it's a taboo con it's a taboo subject of the whole realm of infertility, and so many women are just alone. And there's not a lot of embryo donation, surrogacy, adoption. There's so much out there that needs to be talked about. And I am an open body.
Celeste Berke [00:02:12]:
The working female balancing that, it sounds like your journey was almost 6 years with this, of balancing that emotional load as well as working full time. Yeah. Probably one of the
Jen Suski [00:02:27]:
biggest reasons I left working on property for hotels is because I knew I was about to undergo hormone treatment, and I didn't know what how my body was gonna react to that. I needed more flexibility to work from home, and that's what I wanted. And to get that, I needed to leave hotels, and that was very hard. But I jumped into the tech space to be able to sell the hotels, and it was honestly the best decision I ever made.
Celeste Berke [00:02:49]:
So the hospitality tech space is freaking booming. And I talk with a lot of people who are in hospitality tech who are sellers who don't understand this interesting world of hotels, what RevPAR is, any of that stuff that is the driver of hotels. What I am seeing is a lack of understanding about why technology and keeping up with the advances in technology is so important for the hospitality industry. Obviously, every industry, but hospitality, they often are laggards. They lag behind slow adopters, last to adopt. What have you witnessed from being in this space and leading a team as it relates to old way versus new way? Yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely correct, but it goes both ways.
Celeste Berke [00:03:38]:
So on the tech side, I have done a lot
Jen Suski [00:03:41]:
of education and training about what, like, what's a star report? What is a red book? You know what
Celeste Berke [00:03:47]:
I mean? Like I know. I know.
Jen Suski [00:03:50]:
It's like, what does the front desk have to do during their shift? Because there's this whole thing of, like, I don't understand why can't the front desk just enter a phone number for the text messaging platform. Well, they got a lot going on. They are the face of that hotel, and they don't need 1 more thing to do, and this is why. And then when you're talking to the hotel, yeah, implementing any kind of change in hotel is is very difficult because, you know, they do have so much going on. So it's kind of that if it's not broke, don't fix it. So they kinda have that blind eye to all of this new tech because they're like, it's a nice to have, not Yeah. A must have. Right? So kind of showing them that it's it's what the guests wants when you, like, you have to remind them when they go to check beast.
Jen Suski [00:04:42]:
Be our guest. Be our guest. It's not happening. Like, let let the technology help you keep your scores up, help, you know, improve your processes, especially with how the change that has been happening since COVID even and the lack of staffing and just the change in the overall attitude of guests checking the hotel.
Celeste Berke [00:05:09]:
What people don't realize about the hospitality industry is that a lot of hotels have this turn and burn. Right? Unless your extended stay or in a resort area, it's a lot of 1 to 2 night stays. There's a lot of wear and tear on the property. Imagine someone coming to your house and every single day you're changing the linen, cleaning the bathroom, like, they're in and out, in and out. Guests got really pissed off during COVID about all the amenities were taken away. What do you mean I need to take off my own bedding? I don't get service. And so the expectation of the price point that you're paying is very high. It was an industry that was decimated, myself included, massive layoffs.
Celeste Berke [00:05:46]:
So trying to get people to come back to an industry where they're often not treated very well by guests is difficult. And also, breaking the stigma around everything is looked at as, like, how how much is this gonna cost? What's this gonna cost per room? What is the bottom line? What is the impact? Because if if I'm not making my GOP or if I don't have this type of flow through, we have an issue versus and you and I chatted about this, turning that conversation into what does this mean for an owner, what does this mean to the bank when we are running more efficiently, We have lower turnover. We have better guest experience, which means guest satisfaction scores are going up. There's a lot of things that hotels are measured on that have, like, a really big impact to refinancing. If an owner is able to acquire more hotels, if they're able to get a loan, like the profitability, all of these things, and we're still at this place where people aren't tying together, but this is how we've always done it versus, alright, this may be a complete change to the way that we're doing business. So that was a rant there. I wanna know from a management standpoint, you come from that side, and you're now managing a team to sell into that space, how are you educating and having conversations with your team for their own growth, educating them on process and people and the buying habits.
Jen Suski [00:07:26]:
Yeah. It's it's interesting. I mean, like, it's again, like you said, it's education. It works on both sides of of it from the hotels and the staff. I do weekly 1 on ones for sure, and we talk about, you know, developments, where you wanna be, how can we help get you there, that type of thing. But then we also talk about, okay, so you're you're selling into these hotels and what they need the education on. So, again, they don't know what the red book is. They don't know what paper maintenance tickets are.
Jen Suski [00:07:56]:
I'm like, do you know that they still they still write. Do you know what carbon copy is? I have people that don't know what carbon copy means. I feel ancient. So anyway, yeah, explaining to them that process of what their hotels are doing and how we can help them. We have a maintenance app in our property management system. So if there's an issue, if the housekeeper sees that the AC, the HVAC unit is broken, they can log it and flag the maintenance person. And guess what, GM? At the end of the year, you can go and say, room 305 seems to have issues, like, every month with this this HVAC unit. Maybe we need to replace that, you know, and keeping up with the building and things like that instead of trying to, like, sort through all of these paper tickets or these audit banker's boxes that are filling up your storage closets.
Celeste Berke [00:08:47]:
Right. It's insane. Bit of data, you're able to make decisions around it. Like, room 305, it's happened this many times. We've dedicated this many man hours to it. It's cost us this much. And we like to say in, you know, gap selling terms, this is the gap. Right? If if it's if our desired state is to have that room occupied 91% of the time, this is how much money we're making per room, but it's costing us this much versus the cost of a new AC units.
Celeste Berke [00:09:16]:
This is the business case for it. But if you do not have that information and I was trying to tell somebody the other day, like, okay. There was this board, and it had 3 pegs. And engineering used you used to put the ticket up there, and you would write what was wrong, and then they would move it to pending. And when it was finished, the copy went here, and then that copy went over here. And they're just like, what? That does that still exist.
Jen Suski [00:09:44]:
Yes. Yes. It does still exist. They just don't understand. Then when you explain it to GM, they're like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. They have so much going on in a hotel at any given day. It could be underwater or, like, the sprinkler had burst somewhere.
Jen Suski [00:09:59]:
You know what I mean? They need somebody to go out there tell them, hey. There is a better way to do this. Yeah.
Celeste Berke [00:10:04]:
I had someone reach out to me, an internal champion. As we look at elevating a business conversation, we're talking about actual business problems, taking that information and synthesizing it and saying, well, what does this mean to the property overall? What is this preventing us from doing? Is my labor costs skyrocketing? What's happening to my p and l? They don't have that data, and and it's similar when you're talking to a hotel general manager. Some of these hotels, they cannot make a decision. They will never be able to sign off on anything. You're wasting your time educating. Yes. You can have them become a champion, but I think a lot of salespeople don't realize that for their ICP. They aren't the person that you really need to be talking to.
Celeste Berke [00:10:44]:
And and sometimes salespeople, they're, like, afraid to have that higher level conversation because they feel like I'm not a CFO. I'm not in that person's shoes. And you're like, you're the one bringing the value. Right? You're you are an expert in your area. They're an expert in their area. How do you work with your team on crossing that chasm from, hey. This person is just, like, a nice to have conversation. They'll give us a lot of day to day information, but we really need to be having conversation with this person over here.
Jen Suski [00:11:13]:
How do I do that? Honestly, there's no method. I have no method other than to be like, yeah. You just you need to you need to get over the fear. Honestly, just do it. If they really need help, I'm happy to join calls with them. I record every single one of my my sales calls, and I do sales calls just like I asked the team to do sales calls so that we can review them. And they can listen to any one of my calls. Otherwise, I mean, I'll pull up a Zoom or a Google Meet, and I will do the call and have them on it to listen.
Jen Suski [00:11:40]:
You gotta be comfortable. You gotta be confident, and they're not gonna get to that until they're just you just tell them you gotta do it.
Celeste Berke [00:11:47]:
And I love that. I'm seeing a real lack, and I hate to say it's because of time. I think all of us use time as an excuse. Talking like real big companies, like multibillion dollar companies where individual contributors say, I've been here 2 years. I've never had anybody record or review my phone calls because they don't have time. And the thing is a lot of our teams are product forwards. They go in and talk about the product, and we miss the mark on what's happening inside the business. A great example of this is my husband came home 2 days ago and said, oh, this guy walked into the hotel.
Celeste Berke [00:12:24]:
I heard him ask the front desk. Where's your general manager? And he walked over and he interrupted my conversation, And he put a brochure in my face about a cleaning solution and started talking all about it and then started talking about the pricing and that can negotiate the pricing. I said, first of all, did he even ask you if you have the it's an ice maker. An ice maker? What if you outsource your ice? What if you brought it in? What if you didn't even have it?
Jen Suski [00:12:51]:
What if you have no need for ice? Like, for whatever.
Celeste Berke [00:12:54]:
You know what
Jen Suski [00:12:54]:
I mean?
Celeste Berke [00:12:55]:
Or what
Jen Suski [00:12:55]:
if your hotel is fully anti ice?
Celeste Berke [00:12:57]:
But if you're and he said no, this still happens every day. Maybe he's never had an issue with this ice maker. Maybe it's broken every single day. You don't know because you haven't assessed the current situation to find out what's going on. We just went right into pitching our product. And I'm not sure where I was going with this, but, oh, I do know, is that all of us fall into that habit where we get a little product happy and we're excited about it because our product is the best thing, and so we start talking about it. But if we don't have leadership saying, hey. You missed this clue.
Celeste Berke [00:13:25]:
I missed 1 the other day. 2 of us missed it. Someone said, we grew 85% year over year over year, and I was like, oh, that's so awesome. That's so great. You know? Blah blah blah. And then my coaching on the call was, why weren't you triggered by that? Like, woah. Woah. Woah.
Celeste Berke [00:13:40]:
What do you mean you grew 85%? You just told me that your team didn't make quota. How How did you all grow by 85% and meet goal? Well, it turns out the founders sold 50%. That's how they grew 85%. Well, they don't want founders to be involved in the sales process. So if you take the founders out, the sales team actually used to grow 200% in order to make up for that. But because I missed that, I didn't ask that question. So I love that you're taking the time to work with the team because I hear from so many people who say, oh, my manager doesn't coach me on anything.
Jen Suski [00:14:17]:
Well, how do they expect you to meet your goals and get better at them?
Celeste Berke [00:14:22]:
Change behavior.
Jen Suski [00:14:24]:
Yeah. Exactly.
Celeste Berke [00:14:25]:
I'd love to know if any of your team members come from hospitality sales.
Jen Suski [00:14:30]:
They do not. This is probably
Celeste Berke [00:14:31]:
a good thing. You don't have to break the, like
Jen Suski [00:14:35]:
apparently, yeah, it's be like, I'm basically a unicorn. A lot of hotel salespeople don't don't make it in the tech space. I just learned that.
Celeste Berke [00:14:43]:
Because it's very Vantage. And and also it's 99 purse 9% inbound when you're in I don't what am I supposed to ask? I don't know. Don't I just talk about the hotel and the great things with you? Do not do that. Alright. What I always ask this, and thank you for talking to me about your leadership. It's it's awesome to see a female leaders in the SAS space, but also growing and mentoring a team and juggling a family. What is your sales edge? Tell tell the listeners.
Jen Suski [00:15:26]:
My separates me as a salesperson from all the other salespeople? I'm actually a hotel girl. Like I said, it's I'm a unicorn. I've actually been in this space. I started in housekeeping. I still and I tell this story all the time, but I still have the very first room key for the 1st holiday in I ever stayed at when I was 12 years old that I saved my allowance for to stay at because I thought only fancy people stayed in hotels, which is not, as I know now accurate, but I've always loved hotels, always. And I always sincerely want to help them achieve goals, whatever they may be with whatever I'm selling. So my 1st step whenever I moved to a new company is to talk to my friends in the hospitality space, get them to do a demo with me so that I can work that out. Like, is this something that
Celeste Berke [00:16:15]:
you can use? How would
Jen Suski [00:16:16]:
you use this? Like, that type of things. Yeah. Because yeah. I mean, like, ultimately, that's my goal. That's my dream is to help as many hotels as I can. And now that I'm not on property before, I was helping 1, the one I was working at, and now I can help so many more. So, I mean, it's really exciting.
Celeste Berke [00:16:34]:
And that's really interesting because I'm working with a company. Yeah. It's in a sales process, but they're just now taking a step back and having the team go out and talk to customers about the product. And I'm hearing this some from some, like, amazing BDRs and AEs. Like, the 1st step is just going out to talk to people. Talk to people who are that you would be selling into. Talk to existing customers. Like, get their voice as to what was going on because that's gonna help you to understand what the problem information is, what you help solve for, hear it from the customer voice, what was going on within the organization, and then those that came on board, how it helped them.
Jen Suski [00:17:13]:
And you can't get sales. Thought I was nuts. Yeah. They thought I was nuts because the very first thing I had them do was just to go out and call people and not sell to them. And they're just like, okay. I don't know what to say. I don't know
Celeste Berke [00:17:25]:
what to do. Don't sell. Because we have to
Jen Suski [00:17:27]:
Get to know them.
Celeste Berke [00:17:28]:
Breath, and there's so much pressure on
Jen Suski [00:17:31]:
what what
Celeste Berke [00:17:31]:
are you adding to the pipeline? What are the conversations? Are you moving it through the stage?
Jen Suski [00:17:35]:
And you're like,
Celeste Berke [00:17:36]:
I don't even know what what we're doing here. I need to reassess this because it's often shifting. I've been out
Jen Suski [00:17:44]:
of hotels for 5 years, so be really arrogant of me to say that I still knew what, you know, hotels needed. So it's really important for me to keep in communication with these guys to be like, okay. What's going on now? Because I don't know. I'm not there. I'm not don't have boots on the ground anymore.
Celeste Berke [00:18:00]:
Sure.
Jen Suski [00:18:01]:
So you gotta stay a part
Celeste Berke [00:18:02]:
of the community. And a big a big shift, obviously, after COVID with the customers. Like, things have completely changed. Priorities have changed. And if you come in talking about your product without truly understanding what is going on within that organization, not just the hotel, you know, site specific, but the ownership group or the management company or the brand at large, you're doing yourself a disservice to where you could put your foot in your mouth or potentially say something that totally isn't in alignment with where they are. So awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I love the commitment to customers and getting people to slow down, learn from the customer voice.
Celeste Berke [00:18:47]:
So there's a lot of sales advice that's thrown out there. I would love to hear from you a myth that you want to bust as far as something, like, we should do more of, do less of this, implement this? What would have sales Oh.
Jen Suski [00:19:10]:
That you have to do a 100 cold calls a day? Listen. I'm not against cold calling. It's a part of the process, but you can meet your goals with 10 cold calls a week the same way somebody can meet it with, like, a1000. It's not about picking up a list and just call call call call call. It's about, quality over quantity and recognizing not everyone likes to talk to you on the phone. Maybe they wanna chat on LinkedIn, like the aim days. And I've gotten so much business just doing that or emailing. Some people like it, some people are never gonna read your email.
Jen Suski [00:19:48]:
Some Some people really do like that phone call.
Celeste Berke [00:19:50]:
And I would say knowing your audience is very important as well. So, you know, I come from I'm a little bit older than you, but I come from the times of you would never text anybody. You would never do that.
Jen Suski [00:20:08]:
Oh, yeah.
Celeste Berke [00:20:08]:
So you have to know how to get ahold of someone. Calling a general manager really interrupts their day if they're not sitting in their office versus trying to find a way that you can connect with them either at the beginning of the day or the end of the day when it's a little bit more convenient just given they're typically running around
Jen Suski [00:20:27]:
No one peak check-in time is.
Celeste Berke [00:20:30]:
There you go. There's a good one. Don't call during peak check-in time. Alright. Well, I've so appreciated chatting with you today. Thank you so much for being open about what it's like to be a mom in that journey to becoming a mother, the silent struggles, and how you're open to sharing with other women about about just unconventional or untalked about ways that we arrive at this place called motherhood. And also your transition from property to tech, what that looks like, and then how to hold your team accountable, but are there as a support system for them as you grow this together so that they can feel comfortable and confident in order to learn. I've appreciated getting to know you.
Jen Suski [00:21:17]:
Yeah. Thank you for having me on here.

About the host:
Celeste, a self-proclaimed “Sales Growth Strategist” is a natural collaborator and partner to executives who easily pinpoint gaps in strategy and creates road maps to implement plans and achieve targets. Passionate about creating cross-functional collaboration, team development, and delivering results across top-performing teams.
Celeste has over twenty-one (21) years of experience within the non-profit and for-profit arenas; holding both a B.S. and M.S. degree. In her last corporate role, Celeste held the position of Regional Director of Sales and Marketing for a privately held hospitality management company overseeing 19 properties, a sales team of 50+, and $105M in annual sales. Her accolades include the Director of Sales of the Year award, 2x Manager of the Year, and being named 40 under 40 for the Triad Business Journal. Celeste also holds a certified sales designation from Marriot International and in 2023 was named one of the Top 15 LinkedIn Experts in Denver by Influence + Digest.
In early 2020, Celeste branched out on her own to scale a female-owned consulting and training business. Celeste holds the designation of Certified Gap Selling Training Partner with A Sales Growth Company and the Gap Selling Methodology. Celeste resides in Colorado with her husband and daughter.

22 min
February 11, 2024 Ep19: Beyond the Checklist: Earning the Right to Ask Questions in Sales Conversations with Nick Bontrager
Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:
Hello. It is Celeste here on The Sales Edge Podcast. I'm excited to talk with Nick Bonn. He's about to launch his own podcast. We met on LinkedIn. Thank you so much for being a guest today. Tell us a little bit about your current seat, and then we'll dive into this, sales podcast that you were launching.
Nick Bontrager [00:00:20]:
Thanks, Celeste. So pumped to be on. Thanks for having me on. Account executive at Drata. So we do security compliance for Startups and mid market large companies. So started my journey 5 years ago as an SDR in the multifactor authentication space and Worked my way up to AEs.
Celeste Berke [00:00:37]:
A lot of times when I'm talking to those who are in a sales leadership role, we forget that the majority of our team and, like, the meat of the people who are helping us get to where we need to be really start in this SDRAE space, and they're usually the ones who are not only customer facing, but they're hearing what's going on, like boots on the ground, What is changing, how the customer journey is changing, and how ticked off buyers are that most Sellers are coming from a product approach. You're in an interesting space in that multi Factor authentication ticks people off. Don't get me wrong. Salesforce, every time I log in, I gotta go to another, but it is there to help us. So I'm curious how because you're you're now about to advise some SDRs and also you've come from that seat. How do you move away from talking about products, especially for new sales reps within an org when it's like what we want to do because it's for SafeSpot and what we know.
Nick Bontrager [00:01:45]:
Great question. I don't know if I'm a glutton for punishment selling things that people just don't wanna talk about. Right? It's People ask, what do you do? I'm in sales. What do you sell? Multi factor authentication or security compliance. I'm a nerd like that, but There's a real need for it. SDRs do focus a lot on product. And I think, in a lot of situations, companies push product knowledge so much on their SDRs that that's what they focus on, and they're brand new in their selling careers. Right? So they don't know any better.
Nick Bontrager [00:02:13]:
They're going through a bunch of enablement videos. And don't get me wrong. You you should know your product. But start with the buyer and start with the pains that they have. And as an SDR, a really good way that I did that was talk to other account executives, not other SDRs that were going through the same types of training. Like, get Outside of that organization or find the SDRs that that are buyer centric and that that know those problems. That's definitely something I Think that a lot of SDRs that are getting promoted right now, they're focusing on the pains versus I can talk about this feature with you on this 32nd cold Yeah.
Celeste Berke [00:02:47]:
It's interesting because there's there's obviously a lot on LinkedIn right now in the SDR space. Companies who are hiring SDRs that seems to be the most open position within a company. It's really stemming from this place where economic times have changed. The big well has dried up. You can only be new and fancy for so long with people flocking to you about your product, and now you really have to build a case for change. And a lot of that is now coming down to SDRs going outbound. Not even SDRs, AEs as well, going outbound in this shift of 80, 90%. I talked to a company the other day.
Celeste Berke [00:03:27]:
A 100% inbound, and I'm, like, thinking to myself, your time is coming.
Nick Bontrager [00:03:31]:
Only a matter of time.
Celeste Berke [00:03:33]:
This focus on you call it pains. I like to call it problems. I have a big bruise on my shoulder right here. I don't want my husband coming up and poking that. I know I have a bruise. It's not life Threatening, so not gonna worry about it. How Like, the SDRs that you work with, how are you advising them when they do go down that technical path? How are you calling that out so that they can change that behavior and feel more comfortable talking about problems and more elevated business conversations when they're so new in their career.
Nick Bontrager [00:04:10]:
Yeah. I think that's a good question. And really, it in our industry, what we sell, just to I won't go too far into the weeds But basically, the main pain or problem that folks face is as they move up market, they start to have conversations with enterprise companies. And these enterprise companies are asking them, are you SOC 2 compliant? Are you ISO 27,001 compliant? What are you doing to keep my data secure? How do I trust you? That's the main thing. Right? He's building that trust. And we can talk about automation with Drata in all these different features. But at the end of the day, the SDRs that are really crushing it and doing well, they're the ones that actually understand that, okay. This is a revenue opportunity for our customers and also our buyers to unlock different markets, to move To larger deals because that's that's really the value of it.
Nick Bontrager [00:05:04]:
And I think our our enablement team's doing a pretty good job of pushing that Problem centric approach. And definitely seen a shift in the last couple of years have been inbound. It's been kind of the rosy Sunny days in SaaS, and now it's it's definitely harder. Money's dried up. Money's more expensive now with interest rates. And And, really, there's a a stronger shift towards outbound. So our team has started to lead with that problem messaging as opposed to the feature messaging, which is definitely The big thing on LinkedIn right now, or at least it was a couple weeks ago, was so out for 2024. Oh, so in for 2024.
Nick Bontrager [00:05:41]:
And so the The feature pushing is is so out.
Celeste Berke [00:05:46]:
So out. You're right. We're not that far into 2024. It's still still out, and I would assume with everything that's happening with email, it'll be even further out if you go that route. And it's interesting because you're in this space. So in gap selling, We when we do our training, we have a slide that's specific to what you all are facing, which is kind of just like risk analysis. So a lot of times in, like, cybersecurity, any type of compliant, you're not dealing with something that may have happened. A risk that it could happen.
Celeste Berke [00:06:18]:
Whereas a lot of other buyers are experiencing something in their current state. And it's similar to my dad's a physician. He has malpractice insurance. Well, what happens should you get hit with a malpractice claim. You have to play that out, and it's very rare that you would experience that. I think my dad 45 years in the business, maybe 1 malpractice his claim and his whole career with someone who that worked for him, but on his malpractice. But he buys that insurance because If you get hit with a claim and you do not have that insurance, like, the risk does not outweigh that reward or vice versa. The people that you're selling to probably don't even understand it.
Celeste Berke [00:06:57]:
Many of them know we have to do this, but we don't know why or, like, what it is. It's a different language. So really educating them on if this isn't happening now, This is what could happen. If it's happened, how many times does it happen, and then what are those impacts to the organization? I was on a call this morning, and this is where the team was missing. They could get the technical problems, which is where many sellers live. We all love our products. Business problems? Okay. Maybe turnover, churn, like, things that you can't fix like this.
Celeste Berke [00:07:35]:
The impacts is where they were having a really hard time with, and I would assume for some younger BDRs, maybe even some VP's of sales CROs. That's what we miss is what is the impact to the organization? That's where the motivation to buy or changes. It lives within those impacts. We can't clearly define those. Alright. So I went off on a tangent there. You, 5 years in now, Seen a lot of stuff. Mhmm.
Celeste Berke [00:08:01]:
Obviously, problems over product and features. You told me prior to this You were starting a podcast. Tell us about that. Where did this arise from? What is the concept?
Nick Bontrager [00:08:15]:
Yeah. So it arose out of a little bit of extra time on my hands during maternity leave. Good time. I'm back this week. But, essentially, I asked myself over paternity leave. Okay. What what am I building for for myself, for my wife, for my son that is outside of, you know, Strata in the career and, and all of that. And it really came down to, okay, I've been posting on LinkedIn for a while.
Nick Bontrager [00:08:40]:
I enjoy the interaction. Enjoy the community. What if I go all in on that? What if I start to build this brand? And then that brought me to the question, okay, what can I actually teach on? What can I teach people? And I have been in SDR. I was in SDR for 2 years and got promoted out of that role into an account executive selling role. And so that is what I wanna help folks with is the new sellers, the young sellers, both in their SDR roles and the new AEs. I wanna help them Take their next step, but specifically those SDRs who are looking to get promoted. And so here shortly, I'll be recording the 1st episode of the Promotable SDR podcast. So it'll only feature guests that have been promoted from an SDR role up and out within the last couple of years because I wanna keep it recent.
Celeste Berke [00:09:27]:
This is a great niche sadly for both you and myself because what is happening or what I'm seeing in conversations with individual contributors as well as sales leadership is we don't have any training within the company. Everybody's able to do their own thing, and what we find is that reps are either leaving, they get complacent, you start seeing quota slip, Maybe there's negative surveys around culture. Yep. There's a lot of chatter online or on he's like dark webby type of communities where people are fed up with the lack of, I can't show up and throw up at my job. Like, I need tools, resources, training in order to get me to where I want to go. And if it's not being offered here, I'm gonna look elsewhere. What would you say to companies that aren't offering Any type of training methodology plan. What is their risk? Tell us about their risk.
Nick Bontrager [00:10:36]:
Yeah. The risk. I think you hit the nail on the head, right, is the risk is attrition. People leaving, I know that I'm not happy if I'm not growing, And I have a clear line of sight of where I'm going personally, and I think it's a massive opportunity To attract talent with a road map. I'm a very road map oriented person. When I joined Duo Security back in the day, that was my 1st SDR role, There is a well defined culture of promotion internally to the selling role to the full AE role. So much so that there were really cool traditions back when we went to these crazy things called offices, that they would hang up a jersey Of the SDR who got promoted from an SDR to an AE role, it would have the the year that they were promoted in their last name. And so every SDR that came into that, you know, selling area for SDRs would see those jerseys.
Nick Bontrager [00:11:32]:
And it's like, that is the kind of culture that you wanna instill Because these are folks that if you're hiring the right people, they're uber motivated to make moves in the organization, To learn the product, to learn the pains, and honestly, can be some of your best sellers. So that's why I'm really excited about the podcast, because I'm gonna get to talk to those, Exactly. Those folks. And a lot of a lot of people have moved out of those roles and are doing amazing things.
Celeste Berke [00:11:58]:
And and they learn a lot. So let me ask you. Mhmm. In that company, your 1st company where there was a lot of internal promotion, celebration around that Mhmm. You know, emphasis sounds like on that training and development piece. Will or skill? A new SDR comes in. Which one is going to have them on that trajectory do you believe? That's, like, obviously, self diagnosing. I mean, we don't know.
Celeste Berke [00:12:29]:
But, like, will or skill?
Nick Bontrager [00:12:33]:
Yeah. I mean, It's gonna be Will that can turn into skill, I think, is really how that would roll. Sure you have some people that come in and are I'm not personally one of those, but, like, those that are coming in extroverted, they're super comfortable talking to strangers. I wasn't that way when I was in this role, in the SDR role to start. So for me, it was Will that turned into skill eventually over rep tons of repetition and training and Call shadowing and picking the brains of the top performers around me to get to the level of where I wanted to go. So definitely, I'll I'll answer the question kinda Not one or the other, but it's will that can be the skill.
Celeste Berke [00:13:13]:
I trained a lot of people in my life and usually could after a while, after I got into sales leadership and had some time under my belt, I would much rather take someone that had the will than the skill. I think it's easier to teach skill. It's much harder to teach will. So I'm there with you, but I I do believe we're at this place of companies that are seeing Some of these indicators, right, churn, low win rates, or decline, and are just pumping more into the top of the funnel versus peeling back the onion layers and saying, do we have a people problem? Do we have a process problem? Do we as you mentioned, do we have a culture problem? I saw someone post today on LinkedIn. She talks a lot about, like, content and brand building, and she was saying, like, bro, Nobody cares about all the internal stuff going on with their organization. Right? You use that for Slack channels. If you are an organization where The CEO put something out, and then everybody's regurgitating it. This isn't developing people.
Celeste Berke [00:14:14]:
They're it's not giving them a voice or a brand, and we're seeing that, and I'm assuming a direct correlation between lower employee satisfaction, probably higher turnover, and I do believe that comes, like you said, from that road map from day 1, working with individuals 1 on 1 on this is what the opportunity looks like, This is the development plan to get here. Like, let's help cocreate this. How do we get that? And what happens is That is a very 1 on 1 personalization based on their will and their skill versus what I've been hearing from larger corporations, from individual contributors. My manager doesn't have time. I never talk to them. We don't have a 1 on 1. There's no oversight. So I I do think that we're we're in for some rough waters here.
Celeste Berke [00:15:05]:
So that aside. Alright. So you went from s t r a e. Tell me what if you're talking to your former self and you're putting on my Superman costume, this is the cape I'm wearing. What is your sales edge? What makes you unique?
Nick Bontrager [00:15:26]:
Yeah. So that's in been in development for the last 5 years. And I think one of the main things there's there's 2 main things, And they kinda they play well together, which the first is to not be overly focused on process when you're coming into Talk with a buyer. So it's really good to have a background and a process, but you're talking to a person at the end of the day. It's a relationship. It's something where You are figuring out where they're at in their journey, and then you're joining alongside them. And then that second side is being extremely focused on being buyer centric. So an example of something that I just started doing is in my follow-up emails after demos, tying those follow ups Specifically to one of the criteria that they've mentioned on the call.
Nick Bontrager [00:16:15]:
And I call that out when I when I send the message. Like, look. All my follow ups Or most, at least, of my follow ups are going to tie directly back to one of your buying buying criteria so that this is actually a useful Piece for you to actually read. And so being buyer centric and then people over process, but still having a process, Would say I'd say those are my my 2 edges.
Celeste Berke [00:16:38]:
What I hear you saying is really listening to your buyer, listening for clues that, like, those bread crumbs, something that's It's important to them, something that may be going on in their environment that would change the direction of where you wanted to go, whether that's timing, something came up, something that they told you personally, and really making sure that they feel heard is what I hear, and I love that because when when we show up with our buyers and do not attach to the outcome, and and this took me, like, 30 years to learn, maybe more. I still do it sometimes. Like, we're salespeople. We're we're salespeople. Like, those whatever they are. I I almost called them memes, but they're not. They're a little I don't know. I'm older.
Celeste Berke [00:17:25]:
A video on the Instagram. A reel. A reel. That's what it's called. Mhmm.
Nick Bontrager [00:17:30]:
There you go. We got there.
Celeste Berke [00:17:33]:
We tend to want to attach ourselves to the outcome. And what does this commission mean? And what does this mean to my quota? And we Constantly have to bring ourselves back. The buyer doesn't care about any of that. Right? They care about themselves. So how do we become more empathetic to what they're going through in their current state? And listen without attaching to an outcome. So it sounds like you're showing up authentically listening, detaching from an outcome, but then really rooting them back into something that they said so they can help draw that same conclusion that you did that they maybe didn't put 2 and 2 together. That Clearly has been learned from time in the seat. It's not something that the BDR who started out, you would have known.
Celeste Berke [00:18:14]:
You probably would have fit to your product.
Nick Bontrager [00:18:16]:
Oh, no. Yeah.
Celeste Berke [00:18:18]:
Alright. So I'm I'm loving that, this buyer centricity. I we keep hearing this phrase coming out. I think Keenan, Who Wrote App Selling is working on a 2nd book eventually that really comes from the buyer's standpoint, so it'll be interesting when it comes out. They've done a huge survey. I would assume it will say people prefer a rep free environment. Nothing new that we've heard, but I'm interested to see what those statistics are as it relates to buyer centricity versus taking a seller's approach, which most of us still do from time to time. I've also heard of a couple organizations here recently that will flat out say that they use BANT as a qualification method, which Gets back to that, like, checklist.
Celeste Berke [00:19:01]:
Answer questions that are self serving to me so I can move you through my buying process. Also icky.
Nick Bontrager [00:19:09]:
Buyers are tired of that. Right? Nobody wants to be walked through a self centered checklist that is clearly, you know, just for my benefit as a seller to understand. A much better way to position that is towards wherever you wanna put it into the call. You can say things to set expectations appropriately on my side or just be completely upfront about, I just need to know this. This is this is a selfish question. You earn the right to ask those questions after you've walked through the journey, and you've attached yourself not to your own outcome, But to the buyer's outcome, and then your outcome follows that. If it doesn't, your outcome isn't gonna be that great.
Celeste Berke [00:19:48]:
A bell. I would be ringing it here, and that is tough to show up present and listen. And they're just also difficult if you're working in an environment where there is no methodology, You're given a checklist. Right? You don't have anybody to model that behavior after. Those companies are doing themselves a disservice because our buyers are screaming, We don't want this. Please stop. So over these past 5 years and your progression to now where you're going to be launching your own podcast, Tons of sales, let's say, advice being thrown at us. You are on LinkedIn quite often.
Celeste Berke [00:20:28]:
I am too. I definitely get LinkedIn fatigue. So much comes at you with, like, do this. Don't do that. Do this. Today, we're doing this. Now don't do this. Yep.
Celeste Berke [00:20:37]:
It's hard to know which way to navigate. What is some really poor advice you've been given over the years that you would like to say, Please stop, or we have to bust this myth. This isn't working.
Nick Bontrager [00:20:51]:
I wanna go to the filter thing real quick, which is, yes, LinkedIn fatigue is so real, and I've had to, like, filter through as, like, these are the people that I wanna listen to because I know I've applied what they've done and it's worked, or also I can tell, like, they've spent time in the actual roles. And that's very important to be very stringent about maintaining that LinkedIn diet
Celeste Berke [00:21:13]:
and what comes with the feed
Nick Bontrager [00:21:14]:
because otherwise
Celeste Berke [00:21:15]:
it's just I like that.
Nick Bontrager [00:21:16]:
Yeah. You gotta be careful with what you're putting in with the LinkedIn Diet. But to answer your question, so I think one of the things it's it's It's good advice, but it can be taken too far. Is the up up front contract that folks put down on calls. So it's good to have an upfront contract with with buyers when you're on a on a call with them just to let them know what's going on. But it's being delivered, and it must be This long, and it must be rigid. And I think a lot of times when folks rush through the I'm talking to a person and they just go for that contract that they engage the buyer in that track of, okay, sales call. Here we go.
Nick Bontrager [00:21:57]:
I'm going through this as opposed to the new way, which is Providing an agenda, but also saying, okay. This is what I assume you're coming to us because this is what buyers come to us all the time for. Injecting some of that experience with other clients into that agenda and tying it back to The actual buyer as opposed to walking them through your checklist of what you want to accomplish in the call. So it's good to have an upfront contract, but, again, People over process don't it's it's important how it's delivered.
Celeste Berke [00:22:29]:
For anybody listening who's, like, a VP of sales, CRO, sales leader, first time in tech, Like, would probably be like, what the heck did he just say? Upfront contract. And this is something that I've actually learned through my time. So I'm a certified gap selling training partner, which means I'm like a trainer by nature. I've been in sales marketing my whole life. Training and selling, gap selling at the same time are 2 different things or 2 different skill sets. So I'm right there with you in the CLC Making flubs, asking a self diagnosing question, taking it back. You know? Oh, I went down the rabbit hole. Ask too many probing questions because it's an ever evolving thing.
Celeste Berke [00:23:09]:
We're honing our sales skills. What if someone is like, I don't what do what do they mean upfront contract? My team doesn't see that. Give us an example of a poor upfront contract.
Nick Bontrager [00:23:21]:
Yeah. Thanks, Les, for joining the call today. Here's the agenda. You know, typically, we spend a couple minutes going through, You know, some questions that I have for you. I'll jump into the demo, give you an overview, and then we can establish next steps after that. It It it even how I said that. Right? I've said it before. Right? And it's something that reps get in a very monotone way of delivering, and it just becomes You're sitting in your seat in an airplane, and they're starting to give you the oxygen mask.
Nick Bontrager [00:23:47]:
It's like engage, sales call mode. Right? As opposed to Celeste, thanks for taking the call. Typically, folks join calls with me for x reason or y reason. I really wanna dig in because I think based on your company, it might be the why reasons. I have a hypothesis behind that I'd love to share with you. Adding that tweak to show, 1, you've done your research. You actually care about the buyer, and you're not just trying to, walk them through your steps. Because they have their own steps and
Celeste Berke [00:24:17]:
That subtle shift that you have of being seller cent completely seller centric to that subtle shift in buyer centricity. Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I think that analogy they used from the airplane mode is, like, spot on. How many times do we do that? We're like, I've heard this before. I'm checking out versus really including them in that conversation. I love how you said that hypothesis as well. We love to use hypothesis hypothesis.
Celeste Berke [00:24:45]:
We do that in a lot of
Nick Bontrager [00:24:45]:
my
Celeste Berke [00:24:46]:
notes
Nick Bontrager [00:24:46]:
I've nailed it.
Celeste Berke [00:24:47]:
Where after a call, And that's something else people people often are like, well, hurry up and get me to the demo or get me to the pricing. When When you haven't uncovered all the information, you don't even know you can help them. So, typically, for me, it's at least 2 discovery calls, sometimes 3, sometimes 4. But I'd love to put in my notes, like, what information did I not capture? What am I really curious about? What hypothesis Can I draw from the information they gave me? What could be going on within the organization? I wanna dive deeper into that. So I love how you frame that by hypothesis. Alright. So we're coming up on time. I like to keep these, like, snackable.
Celeste Berke [00:25:28]:
So what's what's next for you? This podcast, who would you love to have on? Listeners, tell us about that so we can get some listeners lined up for you or Some guests I have for you.
Nick Bontrager [00:25:45]:
So what's next? So I'm recording a couple of episodes. I wanna get 3 or 4 recorded before I actually Publish. It's out on Spotify and Apple Podcasts right now. It just has a trailer. But if you are interested, you can go follow the podcast when episodes drop and just notify get notified when they're available. I'm looking for SDRs, former SDRs who've been promoted Into AE roles, into account management roles. Maybe it was 3 or 4 years ago, and you have Hit the fast track, and you're in a VP role or some sort of sales leadership role. I wanna talk to those folks.
Nick Bontrager [00:26:21]:
So that's that's really who I wanna talk to. And, yeah, it should Be out here in mid to late February if I can, really line up those guests. I got the first 3 lined up, so really really pumped about it. But, yeah, Spotify, Apple Podcasts. If you're interested in being a guest, you can shoot me a
Celeste Berke [00:26:39]:
DM on LinkedIn. That's something that you're working on, like, passion project, really bridging the gap. No pun intended. People who are in SERC want to get promoted, maybe are lacking tools, resources, training, mentorship. I'm I'm gonna throw a zinger at you that I sound like like my dad talking. I'm gonna throw a zinger at you that I didn't prepare you for From a professional standpoint, aside from the podcast, what is something you're working on this year in your role.
Nick Bontrager [00:27:14]:
I'm working on a lot of things, but this is the 1st year that I'm actually gonna build out my own Sales process. So I've been using Notion for a lot of this organization of different things I'm doing on LinkedIn, podcast at Drata, and And I'm building out my own sales playbook. So coming from top reps at Drata, top reps that I've worked with in the past and putting this together and really Applying it to my role at Drata with the ultimate goal of getting to that president's club at the end of the year in January. That's something that I'm working on in my role. It's kind of a a bigger, less tactical thing, but it's gonna be Filled with, a bunch of tactical stuff. So maybe, eventually, we'll make that available in some format, but that's what I'm working on Right.
Celeste Berke [00:27:57]:
Lesson Westworld
Nick Bontrager [00:27:59]:
in the
Celeste Berke [00:27:59]:
field, best practices, working on Yep. Building out your own brand, what that looks like, how that applies to the sales role. So I love it.
Nick Bontrager [00:28:10]:
I've been promoted from SDR to AE and been a top performer as an AE, so I know that Early realm really well. But now it's just a matter of, okay, let's let's perfect the deal management. Let's perfect to getting into those larger deals and managing those cycles. And so, Yeah. Maybe a book. I'm I'm working on an SDR promotion frameworks ebook right now too. So that's also a evenings and weekends project. So there's all sorts of info on that on my LinkedIn page too Awesome.
Nick Bontrager [00:28:39]:
Profile.
Celeste Berke [00:28:40]:
Well, it's been a pleasure. I know as a as a new parent, Your 1st week back, I appreciate you sharing some insights on what it's like to switch from seller centricity to being buyer centric. Also, that there is hope for those outside of an organization that don't provide any training to have individuals such as yourself to look up to, to ask questions to, to follow along with, so we're excited for that launch. And thank you for spending your afternoon with us here. I will share all of the links to your Spotify. I'll grab that so listeners can find you and follow along in that journey as it's going to be, I'm sure, riveting, tales from the SDRC and how to get promoted. I'm sure you'll have some doozies in there as well, like, What to do and what not to do. So appreciate your insights.
Celeste Berke [00:29:28]:
Yeah. This is what happens when you're, like, a gen y, gen x. You're on the cusp, but we have no clue what the teens are talking about these days, but also still use some of your parents' language that most people don't know either, zinger being one of those words.
Nick Bontrager [00:29:44]:
I might I might add that to the, yeah, to the frameworks just like little callouts.
Celeste Berke [00:29:48]:
Zinger.
Nick Bontrager [00:29:49]:
Zinger callouts. If you see that, you you inspired it.
Celeste Berke [00:29:53]:
Cool. Thanks. I got a lot of other random useless knowledge throughout my years, but it's been such a pleasure. Thanks for staying with us here.
31 min
February 01, 2024 Ep18: The Sales Meat Grinder Unveiled: Candid Conversations with Peter Wheeler on the Churn & Burn of Sales
Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:
Hello. It's Celeste on the Sales Edge Podcast. I'm joined by Peter Wheeler. We were chatting off air, and Peter said, hit that record button. We're talking about some juicy stuff as it relates to being an entrepreneur, selling your tech stack, Having mental breakdown.
Peter Wheeler [00:00:17]:
Oh, yeah. Mental breakdowns are part of the job.
Celeste Berke [00:00:19]:
Yeah. Definitely. It's typically I ask Individual's 2 questions, and we flow in and out of that. What's your sales edge? But I think out of all of my guests, you're about to drop some value. So, Peter, introduce yourself. Little bit about your background, what you're working on.
Peter Wheeler [00:00:42]:
Well, I can talk about what I've worked on. That might be the easiest thing because I I Based on what you and I were talking about, that's that's gonna be the more fun conversation, especially for if we're talking to salespeople and we're talking to entrepreneurial salespeople And we're talking to entrepreneurs or founders or people that aren't traditionally salespeople that need that element. I think that's gonna be a lot more fun. So I am a serial entrepreneur, for lack of a better term. My first business, I founded in 1998, drop shipping car stereo. I was Oh. In high school, I think I was old enough to drive. I think I had my license.
Peter Wheeler [00:01:18]:
I think I had my credit card.
Celeste Berke [00:01:19]:
Because I graduated 97. And I do remember driving 30 miles to get a bomb car stereo in my Honda Accord.
Peter Wheeler [00:01:30]:
There you go. So I can joke that I was a .comer. I really wasn't, but It was interesting having ecom, having drop shipping that that early. I seem to always be ahead of the curve, and it always Seems to bite me in the butt. Anyway, did that. Got an automotive for a very long time. Got into philately
Celeste Berke [00:01:53]:
I'm sorry.
Peter Wheeler [00:01:53]:
Which is stamp collection.
Celeste Berke [00:01:55]:
I Could you repeat that one more time?
Peter Wheeler [00:02:00]:
So being one of those jack of all trades, Master of none, but often better than a master of 1 style scenarios. In high school, I had 2 to 3 full time jobs. I had the side thing that I was doing for myself. I went and, applied for a role at a place called Regency. It was right around the corner from my high school, And it was a Philatelic auction house. So we're talking a place that would auction postage stamps to stamp collectors, like, $3,000,000 worth a year. By the time I left, we were doing 3,000,000 a quarter, which is pretty cool. And when they hired me, they didn't realize I was a high schooler until I said I can't start till 3:30.
Peter Wheeler [00:02:40]:
They actually they put a team under me. You wanna talk about super weird as being, like, not old enough to vote, But old enough to have that kind of responsibility. Weird world. At the same time, I was training to be a developer And doing developer work in continuing medical education and the bankers training.
Celeste Berke [00:03:02]:
Okay.
Peter Wheeler [00:03:02]:
So writing in, Flash and action script and visual basic. And thanks to Adobe 2021, I'm officially retired as a developer, so I don't even have to Think about that channel anymore other than I like doing dev rel work, but that was wild. Same time, we're talking overlap. Ended up offloading my car stereo stuff to another car stereo shop, stuck around there. It was one of those things that I pop in and I'd sell on the floor because I was bored or I needed extra Cash did that quite often, and then you were noticing my license plate wall.
Celeste Berke [00:03:35]:
Plus you're right next to a fireplace. It looks like you could Have that going.
Peter Wheeler [00:03:39]:
I am next to a fireplace. Yeah. This this whole room's built out of Legos except for the fireplace wall. Giant Everblocks that is placed called it's called Everblock, And they're in Minnesota. American made giant LEGOs to make rooms or pop up displays for trade shows and events. So love of cars, big time love of cars, was collecting them, and that was part of the reason I was working full time so much Across so many places and ended up with the hated the developer work, left that role. They actually hated the company. And then the stamp place, They shipped me out to Los Angeles, Beverly Hills specifically, the ripe old age of 18 on my summer break senior year, To do an m and a with a place called Superior Collectibles.
Peter Wheeler [00:04:26]:
We were expanding into sports collectibles in addition to the philately. So little old me got to live out of a hotel in Beverly Hills to do this acquisition, and it was hell on earth. So I left there as well. Was not my last m and a, but it was certainly my most unpleasant, and I walked away with a lot of great knowledge from it. Anyway, started doing, some work with the shop that I was getting my cars repaired at and purchasing from, and they're like, hey. You know the Internets? Why don't you do why don't you become our eBay salesperson? You know how to write. You know how to do graphic design. You have all this stuff from before.
Peter Wheeler [00:05:05]:
To Ebay sales. Okay. Cool. Came on, started doing that, walked in the park, started writing service, started doing all this kind of stuff, and eventually became the GM of the Store. Opened 2 more stores and then was legally able to drink. Yeah. Yeah. So took it from a $3,000,000 a year to, 1 repair store, 2 sales stores at 15,000,000 a year.
Peter Wheeler [00:05:30]:
And they shuffled In the mid 2000, and now it's just 2 repair stores. And we always knew that that's where the real money is. Sales is terrible, especially car sales. Now that's another episode. So there. That's why my dealer plate's there. We're gonna we're just going through the stack real quick.
Celeste Berke [00:05:46]:
No pun intended with the tech stack. Yeah. Mhmm.
Peter Wheeler [00:05:50]:
There we go. So I left there, went to work for BMW, kind of. It was an indirect placement for launching their after sales and lifestyle in the region that I live in Saint Louis basically building boutiques inside car dealerships and selling the wheel wax and the hats and golf bags and all those things as well as performance parts, so I got to stay in my happy category. The majority of it was teaching salespeople how to sell Trash and trinkets without busting the deal because we all know once something gets into finance, you're gonna lose it. The joke that we have in the car industry is Some people can afford the car. Most people can only afford the payment, and so you have to keep in alignment with how the payment works. That went awesome. I got to build cars.
Peter Wheeler [00:06:36]:
I got to be a YouTube influencer. I got checks from YouTube. We're talking 2007, 2008, And left that. Did some big work for Dolby. It's where Xcede comes from over there. Start I picked up the moniker XcedeR as as well as Bespoke Gorilla. That's where Bespoke is there, doing work for agencies that sold jobs that they didn't know how to fulfill. Picked up some really cool clients of my own, Miller Kors.
Peter Wheeler [00:07:02]:
I continued with BMW. I continued with MINI Cooper. For Miller, I gave birth to a beer. 2012. Invented a dinner series in for an off premise product, Which means you can only buy it at liquor stores or gas stations bringing it into restaurants. And if you if you know Blue Moon, there's literally a Blue Moon tap handle everywhere. Every restaurant has a Blue Moon Tap Handle. That's what they're famous for.
Peter Wheeler [00:07:31]:
And it was innovative for two reasons. Number 1, Tom Schlafly makes a joke about his business, but I was trying to start a religion in Mecca. St. Louis was the home base of this campaign, which is where AB was based, so that was the 1st uphill battle. 2nd uphill battle was dinner series. Like, these were brand new. So I did a prefix thing, 3 courses, $30. Like, it's normal now to hear that kinda And it's a beer pairing, so I did a beer pairing.
Peter Wheeler [00:07:57]:
The restaurant got a wild card dish. They could do whatever they want, and the big differentiator, the thing that made it work, Was I had a course where it was mandatory to use the beer as an ingredient, and the chefs loved it. And they'd come out and talk about it, and they brag about the work that they're doing. The beer at the time was called Blue Moon Farmhouse Ready. That's a mouthful. It was a mouthful of a beer. It's now called Short Straw. There's nothing more cool than being leading on a project that brings something to life.
Peter Wheeler [00:08:25]:
I'm a father of 2 kids now, and I'm just as proud of my beer as I am of them. Anyway, launched a platform called Eat Local because I really liked working with those restaurants, that to a large, RDS, restaurant delivery service. In that, I had a platform called Dell Assist, which was where I managed the people ops dispatch and basically the whole back office for competitors of mine around the country, Which also made m and a easy because I can understand markets, I can understand where to open. Granted, I had tons of of noncompetes, but the United States is pretty dang big. And it was also just offset payroll. So a lot of things on entrepreneurship, and you and I were talking about this before the show. It's like, how much can I offload To focus on what's important, how much can I subsidize somewhere else to make it worth it? So to provide great customer care, I needed a Huge headcount, like 48 people doing our 1st year, we did $99 in business. And, Like, how do you balance that out? Well, debt is one of them.
Peter Wheeler [00:09:32]:
Subsidizing with your agency is another one of them. Thankfully, I had the cash to do that. But bringing on these customers, it became a profitable entity. I got paid to have staff. How cool is that? So, anyway, ended up we ran 35 markets across 28 businesses at that time. I opened 7 more territories. 2 of them were acquisitions. How old was I I then? 30.
Peter Wheeler [00:09:58]:
I finally turned 30. Hospitalized myself as an entrepreneur, so this is kinda where we were getting into in our conversation. Founder led sales. I had sold a 1,000 accounts for this business. 1,000 accounts in 2 years. Brought it to 2,000,000 ARR and put myself in the hospital. Don't do that. Don't do that.
Peter Wheeler [00:10:19]:
I don't give advice Often, but I'm telling my story, and my advice is don't don't do something that puts that hospitalizes you.
Celeste Berke [00:10:25]:
When I I if I can interject here, I think, you know, it's Yeah. It's Not just the founders. It's not entrepreneurs. We see a lot of salespeople, any level in the organization, and who were burnout, who quit with nothing else lined up. Like, it there's only so much output you can have in the pressure of especially meeting numbers and growth year over year. It's a lot for individuals, especially if you're not Set up to have outlets, it's a tough lesson, especially for younger individuals who are in sales of that hustle bro culture of work, work, work, work, work. And like you said, you end up it can end up taking a serious toll on not only your mental health, but your physical health as well.
Peter Wheeler [00:11:16]:
Fast, easy, cheap money. Coming from the car industry and having p you know, having to go to 7 AM Saturday sales meetings where you just watch Boiler Rim or the the the Blake part of the Glengarry Glen Ross movie. It's not in the play nor the book. It's just in the movie. Anyway, yeah, it's the bro culture. That's just sales in general. It's fast money. No barrier to entry, And it's tough.
Peter Wheeler [00:11:40]:
It's real tough. And, well, since this is a profanity show just like mine, we'll get in the fucking biggest problem that comes from That in just a second. So engage with type 2.
Celeste Berke [00:11:50]:
Lived a full life by age 30.
Peter Wheeler [00:11:54]:
Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. We're not even talking about, like, nationally published works or any or anything like that. I'm trying to speed through this because you you've locked half an hour, and My recording's usually are an hour and a half for a 60 minute show. Anyway, we're gonna keep going. That sucker fell apart. Market influence is the term that that I got taught about this.
Peter Wheeler [00:12:16]:
We were what was called a last mile service, which meant we did the the tail And all the work. And I'm still a big believer in that. If you can't do end to end, then you shouldn't really be doing it at all. And with that, we had a lot of Organizations that we were a vendor for. You think like Grubhub, Yelp E24, Easycater. There were a lot of them Out there, we were in a pretty complicated and heavy space. There were a lot of players in the space, and what I went through It was pretty simple. They decided to take on end to end, and they didn't need me anymore, and they needed Their own salespeople in there and entrepreneurs especially, especially if you're self funded or trying to bootstrap or not chasing that VC money, You'll learn the lesson a big bank takes little bank.
Peter Wheeler [00:13:11]:
And and by that, I mean, they were able to go into territories and say, oh, these guys charge you a commission. We'll make it 0 If you go exclusively with us, there's no way to compete with that. It doesn't matter customer service. Like, you you always wanna make that argument. Like, where's the additional values? Customer service, this, this, this, this, and this. You can't be same thing you're doing now, but free. Like, that's hard. That's hard.
Peter Wheeler [00:13:35]:
And we ended up just getting shaved and shaved and shaved on that. Now granted the personal relationships and those kind of things and Loyalty and everything else kept momentum, but then credit card fraud kicked in. And I don't ever wanna be in another consumer, Exclusively consumer business? Because those charge backs are monster. Some somebody does a charge back on a $50 buy, let's say, about $40 worth of stuff and a $10 tip for the driver. You've already you got the 50 in. Driver gets their 10, so now you're down to 40. Let's say the restaurant has a 10 per percent commission, so you give them 36, you have $4 left over. Charge back comes in.
Peter Wheeler [00:14:13]:
It's a $50 penalty right off the bat. You're negative 46, and they take the full amount. So you're negative $96 on a $50 sale on a $4
Celeste Berke [00:14:21]:
Right.
Peter Wheeler [00:14:22]:
Profit. Anyway, fiance of 5 years
Celeste Berke [00:14:25]:
husband deals with chargebacks on the daily, so that's a Never ending credit credit card fraud, disputes, issues, no chip and PIN. Yes. Chip and PIN. Just
Peter Wheeler [00:14:39]:
Some organizations are gonna get real smart and figure out a way to underwrite and ensure credit card transactions. That that would be pretty cool. Oh, also in that era. I was one of those people, and I have a PDF of the article. I can't seem to find it online anymore, but I was featured 2012 In the Saint Louis Post Dispatch, my business was one of the first ones in the region, possibly in the country, that accepted cryptocurrency for services in general. And it was it was kind of a slog because there weren't the kind of automations that they have now and, like, integrations that exist now. And I had drivers that wanna be paid exclusively in it. I really wonder where they're at Interesting.
Peter Wheeler [00:15:21]:
Now because when when I was getting it, it was about $3 a point. $3. And I unloaded a 125 of them, did this newspaper interview where I said I don't trust it. It's unstable. It's It's not good for a small business owner. We ran it 5 years later, it did something, but we're talking, what, $450? $375 worth of coins. I gotta settle on that forever. Anyway, hindsight, 2020, and he he met remorse.
Peter Wheeler [00:15:50]:
Fiance 5 years said, I'm not marrying a 10.99. I'm marrying a w two. I don't blame her. Hadn't been a w two in forever. Forgot what it tasted like, and actually, I enjoy the flavor, the older I get, especially. But with the company collapse, I started something called accomplish nothing. It's a double entendre. Like, for me, very accomplished.
Peter Wheeler [00:16:10]:
I have nothing to show for it, And I was a that was an accomplished nothing at the point. And so I buy these I buy these Vanity plates still aligned to the work that I'm doing at the time. Now that one has no wear and tear on it. You see the rest of these are faded or they're discolored. Anyway, So I get back into tech. It's been 20 years off ish, 2015 now, And getting to geospatial. Get hired on his place as a field marketer because that's where my joy was, experiential disrupts field, that kind of thing. And Ended up becoming the interim head of marketing there for about 2 years within my 1st 2 months.
Peter Wheeler [00:16:55]:
And it was a senior IC role for this startup, And they ended up getting acquired, which was kinda neat. But I had I was able to establish a name for myself that 8 product launches. 2 of them is professional services offerings and 2 of them is PLG offerings, which was really cool. And it was neat bringing that consumer Focus. It was interesting bringing to a data as a service and a software as a service platform In PLG. But one of the biggest things that that I was coming in there with was the ability as a salesperson To do marketing and to understand product. That's where I learned some of my biggest pet peeves in the space. We used to sell what was called the geospatial journey, And that was because engineering was usually fucking around with some project that was important to them.
Peter Wheeler [00:17:44]:
It had nothing to do with the road map. And the salesperson, of course, needed to get 100% of the contract value. So we would go into these rooms. Yeah. I was doing enablement. I was doing the trade show, but I was doing all this stuff. You go in the room, and they'd sell the journey. Yep.
Peter Wheeler [00:17:59]:
How many how have you had to sell the journey? You sell 80% of the product for a 100% of the price, and you make up this bullshit flow of, like, Customized to you. We flow together. Know knowing in the background that that's not happening because engineering's making whatever they want to make. I'm not attacking engineers. It just seems to be kind of a chronic thing. All the departments have some sort of chronic part problem, and that's why Product hates engineering, and marketing hates product, and sales hates marketing, and there's no alpha predator in any kind of business. But, Anyway oh, Apex Predator. It was great.
Peter Wheeler [00:18:36]:
Great organization. Great learning these things. Well We went to a farm company.
Celeste Berke [00:18:39]:
Interesting because I usually ask people and and You walked right into it. You know? What what makes them unique? What is their sales edge? And to me, it sounds like it's this unique crossroads of Understanding marketing and sales and being able to fit yourself into both of those roles, but then both See how it all can come together. And, you know, not many people are able to do that. But that 15 years, 20 years of putting in that foundation as an entrepreneur and pivoting and iterating It forced you into that.
Peter Wheeler [00:19:17]:
It's different when it's your money.
Celeste Berke [00:19:21]:
Totally. It's different. Totally. Right? I mean, I I remember being a w two employee, and some days you're like, oh, f. I don't wanna do anything today, so I'm gonna go there and I'm gonna do nothing.
Peter Wheeler [00:19:31]:
Well, that's one of my biggest Pet peeves with my peers in marketing is that marketing always says, well, we're not accountable to Sales. We're not accountable for conversions. Well, guess what? For the past 2 years at Okta, I was a quota carrying marketer, 10 quarters straight 10 quarters straight, a 100% attainment or better for logos and revenue on PLG and on enterprise. It's doable. We have to own it. We have to own it. This is why sales hates marketing because it's like, I filled the top of the funnel for you. Oh, great.
Peter Wheeler [00:20:05]:
Go. You don't understand the funnel's a meatballer. It's not actually a funnel, y'all, and there's no such
Celeste Berke [00:20:10]:
thing as a movement. Coming out.
Peter Wheeler [00:20:14]:
Oh my god. And that's why end to end is so important. And oh, yeah. Just stick your hand in it. Please, stick your hand in it. I dare you. The problem is and this gets into the abuse of the young, the abuse of the money hungry, the abuse of the people that that are aspiring. We start building these XDR teams, and it's not doing anyone any good.
Peter Wheeler [00:20:40]:
It's not. We we teach them these wild and wacky frameworks and not the soft skills to have the conversation properly. We don't Train them in how to sell. We train them in how to quiz. Yep. And a lot of times, it's very offensive. You had mentioned bant Bant. Well, that's an easy one.
Peter Wheeler [00:21:00]:
What's your title? Are you able to, like can you make this decision? Are you broke? How poor are you? Like, am I wasting my time having this conversation with you? You absolutely need what we've got. Like, the end the end, we always answer for ourselves, and we're always wrong. And then, like, are you gonna buy now? Are you gonna buy now? Are you gonna buy now? Like, Who teaches this kind of thing? And the more letters we add, the more insults we add to the question flow. And then people are like, oh, our customers are our partners. No. That's what happens when you sell them a journey. You make them your partner because they're carrying the burden. You treat your customer like a customer.
Peter Wheeler [00:21:38]:
With respect, you promise what you deliver, and you give them value. Period. Done. Anyway
Celeste Berke [00:21:42]:
Looks awesome. And it's kids. And it's interesting because I had a conversation with an individual contributor, huge I mean, I call it huge, org. 500 people on in sales, and we really dove into, hey. What's what's going on? What type of training did you receive? What's the enablement? What's the discovery look like, for you, and they were saying, I can't fill up 15 minutes of a discovery. Okay. How does discovery go for you? What questions are you asking? And there they go with the what's your title? When are you looking to hire? How many people do you have? And then they run out of questions, and then they're jumping right to the demo. We're not Tracking win rates.
Celeste Berke [00:22:18]:
It's it's all over the place, and it's every conversation that I'm having and yet to See companies doing it well, yet everybody's out there touting, oh, we're doing so well because it is that churn and burn. Right? I Works with another individual who's just at their wits end of all the company cares about is filling top of the funnel. They don't care about That customer journey or what happens, the conversations that we're having, it's just get him in, get him to demo, whatever. Repeat.
Peter Wheeler [00:22:52]:
That's that's why ABM getting back into style is interesting and neat to see. You're talking about churn and burn. We used to have something, and, I guess they still do. I just haven't been in the industry a while. The car industry, especially on sales, called working the list. Same kind of abuse. We'd hire these kids. You know, they they'd be coming from some sort of scam financial services Company.
Peter Wheeler [00:23:15]:
You know, they'd be some sort of MLM. And I'm not gonna name because I we don't need to deal with that kind of feedback from those organizations, but we all know who they They are. And they think they have it. They're looking at the fast money. They're looking at the great demo they can drive. They're looking at, like, this lifestyle that comes from it, not knowing how painful it is. And we'd work their list. So they'd come in, hey.
Peter Wheeler [00:23:37]:
You're not hitting quota. Hey. You're missing this. You're missing that. And that we're talking end to end sales. Like, when somebody shows up, They're yours. They're your up. Literally, that's what we call them, ups.
Peter Wheeler [00:23:48]:
It's not just the old men sitting on a bench, and they wander out when you're walking the lot, and they start Making you feel real intimidated. Every that's the obligation. That's what the role is with these kids. You know, you you threaten them. Literally threaten their their livelihood, what they're trying to pursue, the investment they've already made. So they'd bring their grandma in. My grandma would buy a car. Next week, you're not hitting quota.
Peter Wheeler [00:24:11]:
And they bring their best friend's cousin in. They bring all these peep they knew their list. We wouldn't train them. Wouldn't show them how to do it. Wouldn't Show them how to, we'd show them how to walk a deal, but we wouldn't show them how to, like, actually trade horses, burn gas, cross the curb, whatever Term we wanna use. And that those customers, once the person Failed out, became the book of business of the dealership, and it was phrased in such a way that it was that person's fault. So there was no animosity held towards the dealership. And that book of business didn't go to the new hires.
Peter Wheeler [00:24:52]:
We don't we don't ever give warm leads To new sales hires. No. Never done that. You find you find me in industry where that happens, I'll I'll get back into sales right away. Seriously. And you're laughing, but, like, when have you seen, somebody that's fresh be mentored, supervised, Get a warm lead from an existing customer on something simple like an expansion or a renewal. Like, why do we do These folks such a disservice to not teach them properly. And why do we do ourselves such a disservice? And it's greed.
Peter Wheeler [00:25:26]:
Okay. There we go.
Celeste Berke [00:25:27]:
Yeah. I mean, that also, I think, comes from this place of, you know, this is this is America, and you have to earn it. And, like, we've put in the time, and you need to Earn your stripes and, you know, get time in the seat and really, like, hear those noes and, like, it builds grit or calluses that makes you, you know, resentful, probably.
Peter Wheeler [00:25:53]:
Okay. So why are the people that buy computers based on how heavy they are making the decisions? How come we have folks that have never sold? Maybe they sold a fundraising round, and maybe they've sold sold themselves into a c suite role, But they've never carried a bag. Yeah. They've never sat behind a windshield. They've never racked up the hotel And airline miles and the lack of time at home, they're setting metrics based off what they're board, their investors, The street. Oh, I'm hating that term right now. The streets.
Celeste Berke [00:26:30]:
I also used the street in the industry that I came from, though, it's like you said, You're in it in the day to day. You're seeing what's going on. You're so in tune to what's happening and the challenges that they're having in the conversations. So this individual I talked to the other day, this Huge organization said that they have never received, in 2 years, anybody nobody has listened to a call that they've been on. They've never had any coaching on it. They have stopped recording their calls, because why does it matter? In the industry that I came from, there was such a gap between Everybody who was in a let's let's call them the c suite for lack of I was, like, junior c suite. I got to go to the meetings, but I wasn't in, like, the big meetings.
Peter Wheeler [00:27:10]:
Oh, see at the kids' table?
Celeste Berke [00:27:11]:
But I had, like, a seat at the adults' table, but then
Peter Wheeler [00:27:16]:
No. You said at the kids' table, but she could hear what
Celeste Berke [00:27:18]:
was going on at
Peter Wheeler [00:27:18]:
the adults' table.
Celeste Berke [00:27:19]:
And these people would talk about, like, well, 20 years ago when I was there, well, this is how we used to do it. News flash, and he now has done that. Right? Like, The further you are away Yeah.
Peter Wheeler [00:27:30]:
Just spin the number on the phone. Right?
Celeste Berke [00:27:31]:
The further you are away from what is happening, it's really hard to make decisions for other people We don't know.
Peter Wheeler [00:27:37]:
Well, it's it's a perspective problem too. One of the things that I argue when I get into marketing leadership situations is The value of anecdotal. You get into these marketers now and these organizations that lean into growth hackers and ninjas and wizards and whatever terms they wanna make up. Where it's like, okay. These are the reports. This is the net promoter score. This is my favorite spicy topic right now is how many people are coming out that they hate net promoter scores and that they're useless because they are. Nobody's listening.
Peter Wheeler [00:28:08]:
So Nikki Dibbon, who's a phenomenal fractional marketing leader, She's like, when I establish budget for shows trade shows. Salespeople always wanna do trade shows. It's the hottest leads. They get the FaceTime and blah blah blah, You know, Decent T and E. They marketing never stands up and says, what what was the result? They look at it and they go, okay. It cost us much. We did these many lead scans. They don't even look at how the campaign's played out.
Peter Wheeler [00:28:37]:
They don't look at what the conversion was. They don't look at, Like the re the actual ROI. They just go, we had this volume come in because they're worried about the funnel.
Celeste Berke [00:28:45]:
Yep.
Peter Wheeler [00:28:46]:
And she puts it to the salesperson. What did you accomplish? Was it worth it? And that was something I started taking Oh, and we were going to shows, especially with boundless. We were going to shows, like, for open source community because that was a big part of our stuff. Open source means nobody pays for it, And we were getting high conversions from there. When I did the work for Mapbox, that was a community that we supported pretty heavily. And we were able to close $1,000,000 in government business in under 6 months because we were doing the anecdotal. We were getting the feedback from the sales People were getting feedback from the audience. We were this isn't net promoter score.
Peter Wheeler [00:29:27]:
This isn't this isn't leading feedback. This is like honest answers. That show sucked. They picked a bad venue. The timing was off. Like, you get those real numbers. You get the stuff like the coffee was horrible. It's like, okay.
Peter Wheeler [00:29:41]:
That's fine. I'll I'll throw a can of Folgers Crystals into your luggage. What are what what do you need on that front? We're talking about the business case of it. But this is where, like, we're all failing. Is this siloing, this focusing on stuff that is contributory? You know, you have this anecdotal on who you're listening to, and that's just, like, you're you're not establishing metrics that are That makes sense. Yeah. And the silos unhealthy. And that's again where we get into product hates engineering.
Peter Wheeler [00:30:12]:
Yeah. Marketing hates product. Sales hates marketing.
Celeste Berke [00:30:16]:
A huge thing, a phrase that our team loves. We're always like, why does that matter? Why does that matter? And why does that matter? You know, it's just constantly, like, why does that matter? When when we're talking to individuals, and They're going down this rabbit hole of shooting the shit with people on Discovery or talking about their like, why does that matter to them? I'm surprised that companies do so well with just how poorly we are doing. And I think to your point, it's, like, awesome products that are out there. But, eventually, as tech continues, he's going to continue to evolve. We're at this intersection of rapid speed to market. Right? It's speed to market. But at some point, it's not your product. Right? There's 10 others out there like it.
Celeste Berke [00:31:07]:
And this churn and burn on the front end from sales, like, what is that tipping point?
Peter Wheeler [00:31:15]:
Okay. So then, like, going into that, what's the what's the switch that you see happening? There's low code, no code, AI, Code validation. Agent building now. Like, everybody wants to build a category. My favorite my Favorite CEO statement when I go and ask them questions about the product and what they do and how the sales motion's gonna work or PLG as a sales This motion's gonna work. We have no competitors.
Celeste Berke [00:31:45]:
And you're like, it yet. Or do you? Cool.
Peter Wheeler [00:31:51]:
Cool. If you that's fine. Now you have 2 big problems. You're creating a category. The biggest problem. And you probably purple lotion. You might have a little bit of blue, but it's mostly red, bud. Sorry.
Celeste Berke [00:32:10]:
This is the part that we've arrived to that I think is so awesome, is that individuals have so much to offer and are so diverse and have this, like, subject matter knowledge or like yourself, Kind of a savant of many things, like you said, jack of jack of a lot, able to work, but still working on passion projects as well, Blending that all together because bringing that to an organization carries a lot of value and weight.
Peter Wheeler [00:32:38]:
You took my heart. Yeah. But I I would say I'm I'm it's been more of, like, hopping from life raft to life raft than bundling sticks to build that next island. No. And that's that's something that that I hope people start changing and seeing. It's something that I hope organizations stop fearing that Remote work means pea that people are gonna have j ones and j twos and pursue overemployed. People should be pursuing Side hustles. Now don't get me wrong.
Peter Wheeler [00:33:07]:
I don't like the word hustle. I wanna cancel culture. I wanna cancel hustle culture. But You're not gonna have perspective if you're living in an echo chamber of your job. You're not gonna bring in we always talk about experience. People hire in competency. Have you done this job before, and did you do it well? It's a worst thing to hire somebody on. Then you have the other aspect of it is, Do I think they can do the job, and do I like them? And somewhere, it falls in between the 2, but both of those are bad.
Peter Wheeler [00:33:40]:
It's interesting. It's a bell curve. There we go. They're both they're both low, but there's a middle that's pretty high. One thing that I would like to warn people about is Don't convert your hobby into a job because then it becomes a job. Don't convert friends and family into employees or business partners Because from there forward, they're no longer friends and family. That's the hard part. It's hard building out that Scenario.
Peter Wheeler [00:34:07]:
So, oh, there we go. Let's go back 30 minutes to what we were really gonna talk about. Founder led sales, Entrepreneurship, solopreneurship, getting out there in the sink or swim. So salespeople, you wanna do something on the side? Because you have a lot of free time. You really don't. I know you don't. But you wanna do something on the side? Remember, you gotta do the work too. You don't do paperwork.
Peter Wheeler [00:34:30]:
Salespeople don't do paperwork. Never have. That's why we get in trouble. That's why marketing doesn't like us.
Celeste Berke [00:34:34]:
That's why it's not in the CRM.
Peter Wheeler [00:34:36]:
But then everybody else that thinks sales is disgusting and scary And hard? Well, number 1, it is all 3 of those things, but it's a lot of good things too. Don't forget when you're doing the work, you also have to be selling. Because then you get into this weird tide situation where you will starve for months. And guess what? It's harder to sell when you're starving than it is when you're working. And, like, you compare it to anything. Like, you can be single forever, And then you're dating somebody that you actually like, and now everybody's at your doorstep. It's so weird. We have a job that you're totally in love with, and now recruiters are calling you, but but it's also because you're putting out a certain energy.
Peter Wheeler [00:35:17]:
Those ones, it is because you're putting out a certain energy. The rest of the time, like, Just remember, if you're gonna do it all, you gotta do it all. That sucks. That's fun. That's addictive.
Celeste Berke [00:35:29]:
And then you layer in some kids, and you're not Sleeping, and then you're trying to exercise because you're aging, and eat healthy, and maybe take a vacation that isn't actually a vacation. It's It's just parenting in a different location, and, yeah, it's a lot of balls to juggle.
Peter Wheeler [00:35:47]:
So I guess you you hit on the third one that I still miss Today, self care. Self care. Because you're not any good to anybody unless you're good to yourself, Period.
Celeste Berke [00:36:00]:
Damn.
Peter Wheeler [00:36:01]:
So, yeah, how's your journey going? How how much how much fun are you having? How much misery are you having? I'm gonna turn the tables here because I can tell you all my stories, But I'm always curious. Like, you're gonna quit?
Celeste Berke [00:36:11]:
No. And, actually, somebody somebody asked me that a couple of weeks ago when I said, this is tough. Building your own pipeline as an entrepreneur When you're trying to educate, sales training is tough to sell because Somebody has to understand that they have a problem and that they're willing to change, and that they're willing to change to you. And as individuals, we don't like to admit we have a problem or that we need help. So as a VP of sales, a CRO, the same is the case. A lot of times, my entry is an IC and then them becoming a champion or sharing information. And a lot of the information that comes back is, I don't wanna work on that. Like, My strategy's good.
Celeste Berke [00:37:00]:
We're we're working out the kinks, yet we see win rates below 10%, decline in sales, discount. And one of the companies that, I'm talking to, they discount a 100% of the time. Interesting. Okay. 100% of the time at 50%.
Peter Wheeler [00:37:19]:
Is that the is that the pricing model? I've I have yet to really encounter an organization that has ever sold a list.
Celeste Berke [00:37:26]:
Well, it begs a whole another question. Right? Like, why why are we discounting? Why are salespeople doing that? Questions are they asking? Do they know what problems they're solving? I mean, the list goes on and on, And it's been very eye opening. There's absolutely no methodology, no framework, no, established Processes, no training, no enablement, and they're slinging new products in order to keep that funnel moving, and that's what they're looking at the health of the organization on. So it is definitely been frustrating.
Peter Wheeler [00:37:59]:
Velocity.
Celeste Berke [00:38:00]:
Yes. The velocity. It's definitely been Frustrating to compete with a lot of noise out there. As an entrepreneur, what I found is that aligning with sales growth, the company, while there's really only, like, 3 and a 3 employees plus some fractional talent. It has been an amazing place for continued mentorship and growth and business development. So every week, they pour into me. I feel like I'm a w two employee without being a w two employee. I get coaching and the feedback.
Celeste Berke [00:38:36]:
And then with The new partners who are coming on, I'm able to see their learning journey. So it's this amazing let blend of being an entrepreneur, but not Sitting here by myself all day and having team team interaction, and I would say the the first part of my entrepreneurial journey, I didn't know if I could do it because I'm pretty much an intro like, I'm an extroverted introvert. And I loved going into the office because I liked the energy from other people, And when I don't have that, sitting behind my desk all day, if I don't have calls, I'm not interacting with people, It's a tough thing to say. Let's do this again tomorrow. And like you said, you go months months without revenue because you're iterating and, like, Okay. Now I don't wanna work with individuals. I'm looking at companies. Now I'm just looking at this industry.
Celeste Berke [00:39:26]:
They have this problem. So you're constantly second guessing yourself and But no, I won't give up because I bet on myself.
Peter Wheeler [00:39:35]:
There you go. It's a good bet.
Celeste Berke [00:39:37]:
And I've seen The freedom, the flexibility, the upside versus Mhmm. I w two employee of why are you wearing that? Why did this person Do that. Can you contact them? Copy me on this email.
Peter Wheeler [00:40:00]:
You've still got all that. You've still got all that. That's not going away. But now you have the addition of people ask you where you work, you say you're self employed. Right.
Celeste Berke [00:40:07]:
And they're like And
Peter Wheeler [00:40:08]:
they look at you like you're unemployed.
Celeste Berke [00:40:09]:
So you're unemployed.
Peter Wheeler [00:40:11]:
Yep. Or, you know, my favorite is people ask you all types of favors. Can you run errands for me? You're not doing anything today. You're you're not busy.
Celeste Berke [00:40:20]:
I think mine is more so can I have your time? Can you help me with this? Can you help me build out my LinkedIn? That's the biggest one. Can you just give me some pointers? Do you have 30 minutes where you could just help me with this? So tell us, as we wrap up here, I'd love to know If you could sum up, like, 1 myth going into that you wanna bust, What would it be?
Peter Wheeler [00:40:48]:
Who? A myth. A myth. Something that people
Celeste Berke [00:40:51]:
believe that isn't True.
Peter Wheeler [00:40:54]:
That you get more closes with more prospects.
Celeste Berke [00:41:00]:
The old TOF. Yes. More. Mhmm. More has not more.
Peter Wheeler [00:41:09]:
It's more annoying. Oh, no. It is. It weren't worth you're starting to forget with
Celeste Berke [00:41:17]:
This is true. This is true.
Peter Wheeler [00:41:19]:
Without, But, yeah, the demark problems and going to spam and everything else, like, we're gonna go back to the old rules In the old ways of playing.
Celeste Berke [00:41:29]:
Get those beepers out.
Peter Wheeler [00:41:30]:
March. Mhmm.
Celeste Berke [00:41:32]:
Meaning at the pay phone. Wonderful. See pay phones pop up again. Everything old is new again. Actually,
Peter Wheeler [00:41:40]:
I have I have an album online called Feral Phones, where All my travels, I take pictures of pay phones.
Celeste Berke [00:41:48]:
What? That's getting harder to
Peter Wheeler [00:41:49]:
find them. Still function. That's the rules that they have to Still funky. Have a different library
Celeste Berke [00:41:53]:
of a recording. That's getting harder to find, I bet.
Peter Wheeler [00:41:57]:
Depends where you go. It's just like you think video rental stores don't exist anymore, but they do. It's a we'll stay out of social impact. We'll stay out of that altogether, but that's a that's a whole channel I can go down as far as
Celeste Berke [00:42:10]:
Alright. Well
Peter Wheeler [00:42:12]:
money. Bye. Thank you. Thanks for having me on.
Celeste Berke [00:42:15]:
No. It's been such a pleasure just to hear from someone, right, at this This juncture of entrepreneurship, w two head of marketing in sales understands it all and continues through all the muck and the mud and your building. Alright. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure, Peter. Catch him on LinkedIn Putting out some spicy content. Not afraid to challenge others in the comment section, but we'll definitely not respond to your DM if it sucks, and we'll get moved to the other inbox. So no trolling, but Peter's up to great things and always great to see your Savantanist, I will say.
43 min
January 15, 2024 Ep17: Knock-Knock, Who's There? Will Aitken's Cheeky Take on Challenging Sales Norms (Trust Him - He's a Salesperson)
Celeste Berke [00:00:01]:
Hello. Hello. It's Celeste Berke Knisely on the Sales Edge Podcast. I have a unicorn with us, A legend, Will Aiken. You made a huge announcement recently about your of this.
Will Aitken [00:00:18]:
The logo. My AI generated graffiti art logo.
Celeste Berke [00:00:22]:
Yeah. I
Will Aitken [00:00:23]:
don't know why I went through all the graffiti as well because I'm not street. I'm not urban, But I just like color. But you can listen to my voice. You can hear more teas and biscuits rather than spray painting graffiti on the wall outside, but It just it just felt right. I launched I launched willakin.com.
Celeste Berke [00:00:38]:
Tell us about your new venture.
Will Aitken [00:00:41]:
I got tired of For point to the mat, you know, done that. For a long time, I've I've I've felt like I could do this by myself, and I didn't because that the ever cooling, that siren sound of Safety of having a job. It's so tempting, especially, I've got a young family, got 2 young kids. I'm the breadwinner in my house. It it it it's so easy to just keep doing what you're doing and get paid for it. But I know that the value I could bring, it will be much more for myself than it would be The salary that I was taking. Right? I'm sure I loved what I was doing. I loved the job I was doing and and the work, and that's that's a position of luxury if you haven't say that, but I just I gotta do it.
Will Aitken [00:01:18]:
You know? I gotta take the risk. I gotta go all in. And even if I fail, which I probably won't because I won't let myself do that, I can say I did it. Right? But I've always had that nag at the back of my head, and it just happened to be the right time. So I went all in, and here we are. And, it's going pretty well so far. I won't lie. I mean, launch week, you're gonna get a bunch of support.
Will Aitken [00:01:34]:
Got a ton of great friends in the space who have all been super supportive. I know it's gonna probably harder from here. Yeah. It's been Overwhelmingly positive so far.
Celeste Berke [00:01:43]:
What's interesting and what I love listeners to take away from this is you put in the reps ahead of time to build your brand, to build your network, to give back, to build in public, to show what you were doing so that when you did take that leap and and this is, like, akin to salespeople is what I'm getting to. Akin akin. To salespeople, you can't just get in the seat and start prospecting and think, look, these are gonna go in. The shooter's mentality. No. You gotta get in the dirty reps, the practice just upfront and build before things stick.
Will Aitken [00:02:22]:
I I think that's that's a really good point. It's something I thought about as well. A lot of Business owners, they go out and they create this idea, and then they go and try and build a brand. What that it it took me 2 years to build this brand. And I grew quicker than most because I did some outrageous stuff and had this very little filter, which people seem to like for some reason. Mostly we don't have as quick of a come up. Right? So, like, if I was stuck my business and didn't have any followers today, I'd be I'd be dead in the water. You know? I'd already have to be looking for a new job With my tail between my legs, obviously, would have made the decision if it didn't have what I have.
Will Aitken [00:02:55]:
But,
Celeste Berke [00:02:55]:
It's tough. Someone asked me that a couple of weeks ago. It was actually Daniel Ryan. He probably know Daniel from aligned. So
Will Aitken [00:03:04]:
Nice.
Celeste Berke [00:03:05]:
He was saying, this is so hard for you to build a pipeline because I self source. I was that person for 20 years in corporate. Never thought about my personal brand. I knew everybody in the industry, but not online. And 3 years ago, having to start at 1500 connections on LinkedIn and start building public, This isn't an uphill battle, and he said, what if this doesn't work out? What are you gonna do? And I said, Daniel, there is no it has to. So I will keep going.
Will Aitken [00:03:37]:
Yeah. I I I think that's what you just said is pretty darn true and great for an entrepreneur. It has to. It's like a little chip in your shoulder. Got something to prove. You can't fail. You won't allow yourself to. But I can tell just from the the vibe you give Selassie.
Will Aitken [00:03:52]:
You know? You've got some interest to say that people would wanna listen to. You know what I mean?
Celeste Berke [00:03:56]:
Having female over. I know I don't look it. I'm 44 with a 4 year old. Right? Slaves. Slaves. Corporate after 20 years, and now I'm in my 2nd act, and I
Will Aitken [00:04:11]:
You look like Younger than I do. I'm 29 with a 4 year old.
Celeste Berke [00:04:16]:
You are not 29.
Will Aitken [00:04:18]:
That's what I mean. Yeah. I'm 29. I just I just forgot to moisturize for all those years of sales. They they're not nicer to the to the wrinkles.
Celeste Berke [00:04:28]:
Well and that's what's interesting is This I think as a salesperson, you also have to have a little bit of an the entrepreneurial bug because you are in a little bit of a silo in a sales role. I heard from a huge company the other day. 500 reps on the team, they get no coaching. There is no nothing. They're winging it in the wild, wild west. And if you don't have that little flame inside you that says I'm competitive, I can do this, this month sucked, Next one's gonna be better. This is what I'm building. You just go in and collect your paycheck and waiting for the day that you get axed.
Will Aitken [00:05:04]:
Yeah.
Celeste Berke [00:05:04]:
How do you think that entrepreneurial bug served you as a employee, like a traditional w two employee?
Will Aitken [00:05:14]:
It's just total accountability and ownership of everything you do. I kind of hate that word accountability because it's so synonymous with, like, toxic people who just don't recognize that they've got a ton of privilege. Like, Me go out there and be like, no excuses. I'm a posh British tool, handsome, very handsome white dude. Come on. Like, I can't go out there and be like, You're just making excuses, people. But at the same time, like, in sales that you do need a level of accountability to say, like, I don't want to rely on. I don't want to rely on marketing.
Will Aitken [00:05:42]:
I'm going to go get my own pipeline. I'm going to say, even though that deal wasn't my fault, I lost it. What could I have done differently so I can learn from that next time? You need that. Otherwise, you would just sit there, like, going, oh, it's not fair. I sound like one of those toxic assholes on, like, TikTok, like, the the Won't name anyone, but, like, the the car sales dudes who, like but at the same time, you do need a little bit of that because, otherwise, you will just end up in this wallowing pit of self to bear despair, which isn't a fun place to be. I've been there. I've I I I was there for many years before I got good, before I read gap sell. I remember I was in sales, and I was I was working at this company, and I had the worst territory objectively the worst territory.
Will Aitken [00:06:22]:
I know this because I've measured it. I took a business case to my manager. Like, look at my bad territory. And all these other reps were up for me and me, but I was so focused on what they had and what I didn't. I wasn't even focusing what I was bringing to the role anymore, which was very not enough. Wasn't looking at what I was doing to learn on the side, what I could do to make the most of my territory, what what people with similar territories was doing to still win. I was so focused on what I didn't have. I was Completely blinds to the fact that I was not focusing on what I could do.
Will Aitken [00:06:49]:
And then I was like, okay. Well, if I work for a different company, it'll be different. And I went into the interview process with a company, and they were like, well, we're looking for someone who's got a sales process. So I Googled sales process, and I, like, read it out on the interview. Like, yeah. I do Discovery, which I didn't do. And I and then I do a, demo call after that, and they're like, oh, that's great. Then I asked them, what resources does your team really love? They're like gap selling.
Will Aitken [00:07:13]:
So I knew I had 1 week between the 1st interview and the 2nd interview. I had to finish gap selling so I could keep pretending that I knew what I was doing I could get this job because the job was the problem. But luckily, in the process of doing that, I got that job. And when I got there, I got great coaching and applied a lot of the stuff that I from from reading that book in a week and then reading it again. And my manager was both trained and and and believed in gaps on methodologies and a couple of things as well. And Then everything got better, and I realized, oh my gosh. I was the problem the whole time. I just didn't you know, like, it was the product that I was selling.
Celeste Berke [00:07:46]:
Taylor Swift wrote about. Right?
Will Aitken [00:07:48]:
It's me. I'm the problem. It's me. Right? But, like, it took me so long to catch that point. I just wish I had known that early because the moment It will start to make sense. It will start to becoming easier and actually a lot more fun as well. Instead of wallowing and clocking off and doing the bare minimum, I was excited to go to work. I was Excited, talked to Claude.
Will Aitken [00:08:07]:
I was excited to to reach out and prospect and and meet new people and keep learning. And then and then one day I asked for a promotion, and I didn't get one, so I I acted like a toddler and went and became a content marketer instead. Boo. But here I am. I got it. Yeah.
Celeste Berke [00:08:22]:
But I
Will Aitken [00:08:23]:
thought I
Celeste Berke [00:08:23]:
did sales. Here you are. Hold on.
Will Aitken [00:08:25]:
Let's do it.
Celeste Berke [00:08:26]:
Right? Taking every and that's what I love. So I'm all about people who are real and authentic and are like, hey. This shit sucks, and it's gonna be tough. And this is what Rachel why I love Rachel May. She has been, like, the hardest female coach boss that I've ever had, And I always looked at it as, like, it's them. They're so mean. And this time around at age 44, I'm like, Oh, she sees my area of opportunity, which is why she's pushing on me so hard. It's why these conversations are so difficult, but I'm learning so much.
Celeste Berke [00:09:03]:
And it is that simple shift of not why why me to the why not me. I can do this because there's something inside of me. And maybe it's, like ADD or ADHD or competitive drive or we have It's
Will Aitken [00:09:18]:
definitely ADHD. I can see it in you. I I think that's also, like, a good thing as, like, a superpower because my dad has that. Like, if you saw me and him, he'd be like, like, what's that? What's that? You know, like, in public. Like, woah. It's a it's a bird. You know? Like, it's still, like, concept of but in a way is is like a superpower. I always find, like, people who are like that, they managed to make it work.
Will Aitken [00:09:35]:
And, obviously, you've been doing that for such a long time That you've made it something that you can turn into goodness. And I said the same thing about anxiety as well.
Celeste Berke [00:09:43]:
Oh, I love
Will Aitken [00:09:44]:
Even though I definitely have had, like, crippling anxiety, A certain level anxiety is a really good thing because if you don't have anxiety, just think about this. Not having anxiety is like not worrying. Right? You would have no drive. Yeah. You're always worried to move.
Celeste Berke [00:09:57]:
Of the, like
Will Aitken [00:09:59]:
If I don't do this, then it's like you need obviously, too much can become too much. That's right.
Celeste Berke [00:10:03]:
Oh, and the
Will Aitken [00:10:03]:
But it's still the amount.
Celeste Berke [00:10:05]:
Is not fun. It is not fun.
Will Aitken [00:10:07]:
No. You'd
Celeste Berke [00:10:07]:
be like No.
Will Aitken [00:10:08]:
No. No.
Celeste Berke [00:10:08]:
Bag, and you're like, this is death. This is what death feels like.
Will Aitken [00:10:11]:
Touching touching, like, ice face. Come on. Wake up. It's okay. Touch touch touch something solid. You know?
Celeste Berke [00:10:17]:
Laying on a cold bathroom Laura, getting as close to the earth as he can during a panic attack has been marvelous.
Will Aitken [00:10:23]:
In the in the shower, just sound on the floor like
Celeste Berke [00:10:27]:
But as is a
Will Aitken [00:10:28]:
describing me at a conference. 3 days.
Celeste Berke [00:10:31]:
Panic attacks suck. But I agree. That tiny little bit of the, like, the the buzz of anxiety keeps you going. And I'm sure your kids love it too because you're probably so much fun.
Will Aitken [00:10:41]:
Yeah. I I can see it in my son as well. He's he's definitely got a little bit of whatever I have. As I said, I can see it most with my father. He used to he would still is probably a big role role role role role role model for me Because he's just always going. What makes him interested? What makes him fun at a party? What makes him a great business owner? And for so long, I looked up to him. And then recently, he came over, and he was like, Will, you do realize you I almost felt guilty that I I wasn't more successful. He said, Will, you do realize you make more than me now? And I was like, Well, dad.
Will Aitken [00:11:15]:
Yes. Screw you, dad. No. But, like, it was like a moment, like, I was like, woah. And, like, I don't know. For so long, I felt guilty that I hadn't been more successful because all the things he did for me and the way he set me up live and stuff. And then I hearing that, I was like, oh. Yeah.
Will Aitken [00:11:30]:
But now what?
Celeste Berke [00:11:31]:
I'm staying seas with you, my dad. My dad's 78, so, like, a lot older than your father. But he's still, like, go go go go go. Works full time, runs a $10,000,000 business that he built from scratch 40 years ago. He does Ironman. He teaches spin class 2 days a week. He's a master swimmer, he's written 3 books. He's just, like
Will Aitken [00:11:51]:
Yeah.
Celeste Berke [00:11:51]:
Set the bar.
Will Aitken [00:11:52]:
He's written 3 books? What on?
Celeste Berke [00:11:54]:
Well, he wants me to teach him how to I do a podcast, so that's coming when he comes in 2 weeks. Pay it.
Will Aitken [00:11:59]:
I'll teach him how to use the script.
Celeste Berke [00:12:03]:
Tales my patients told me, so it'll be, like, stories over the years.
Will Aitken [00:12:08]:
Is he a doctor? Mhmm. Wow.
Celeste Berke [00:12:09]:
Yeah. Physician. And another one was He lived in Africa for 3 years, worked for the Canadian government. He's Canadian. So he has pictures and short stories that go along with that. And another one is, Like, short stories about his one of his grandchild's, like, doll, I think. I haven't read it. I'm getting it for Christmas, so we'll see.
Celeste Berke [00:12:31]:
But He's a great storyteller in that he's a couple of that as well. Great salesperson by default. I feel like people who are great storytellers because this what what happens in content, you tell a great story and it leads people down a path.
Will Aitken [00:12:50]:
I don't know. People ask me stuff about content, and there's a reason I didn't start a content business. I started a sales business. Right? And that's because, like, well, what do you do content consulting? Why do you teach companies how to make great content? I'm like because I don't know how. I just showed up online and decided that I haven't posted anything, And that worked. That doesn't mean I can tell everyone to. That that's not like a a universal way to grow. And the reason I made the concept was because I had a passion for the thing I was talking about.
Will Aitken [00:13:15]:
It's sales. I wouldn't have gone and done the role if Lavender was a selling to marketers company. Because I don't care about marketing. I care about sales. That's what's interesting to me. So it's fascinating. That's what keeps me, like, going, like, that's so interesting. There's a reason I will not become a a content Content person.
Will Aitken [00:13:33]:
I've noticed this trend in life. There's these people who became successful telling other people how to be successful, And I don't think that counts. Honestly, I'm getting a little bit closer a little bit meta here. But, like, If you can only be successful teaching other people how to be successful, then those people can only get successful by doing the same thing you did. They can only be so many success coaches out there. Alright. And in the same way, if I was a content creator teaching other people how to create great content, then it doesn't count, If you know what I mean. I don't think that counts.
Will Aitken [00:14:07]:
It's like I I'm trying to
Celeste Berke [00:14:10]:
It's like a doctor never practicing and teaching other doctors how to be a doctor, you're not in the seat. You don't have hands on the patient. You don't know what it feels like for, like, a pregnant woman's belly or, or, like, the The throat, right, the the glands that are swollen, because I just know how to teach being a doctor.
Will Aitken [00:14:26]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. If that doctor had never been a doctor, it doesn't count. Right. They don't have the credentials to teach our people to help be adopted. And this is, like, part of my impost syndrome, I suppose, as well. I haven't sold for 2 years now.
Will Aitken [00:14:38]:
I need to get back in that seat, make sure I'm still practicing about when I need to keep touching these things. And, yes, there is a certain element of entrepreneurship, which is gonna be sales. Right? You know this. You've closed you talk to them, you still do the discovery process. You still get You
Celeste Berke [00:14:51]:
still do deals.
Will Aitken [00:14:52]:
Yeah. And that's what that is what I need to do more, but I'm wondering even more of that. I'm gonna Cold calling, like, open to watch me f up. It's gonna be brutal. It's gonna be even more anxiety inducing than normal cold calling because I'm gonna have an audience watching me, And I'm will it I don't care if I fail because it's real and it shows that it's not just tell it's not just telling, it's showing as well and it's anyway. But both I made some cold calls the other day, and I've kind of missed this adrenaline. It's crazy because I do not enjoy cold call, and I hate it. It's horrible.
Will Aitken [00:15:21]:
And let's be real. Anyone who tells you That they do or is he the lion or, like, cuckoo. But but I did it, and it gave me a feeling I haven't had in so long of, like, It it feels good to have butterflies about something. It feels good to be nervous about something. That's a good thing to have. Because if you don't do that if you never have that, You're not telling yourself. The same thing happened when I did public speaking as well. That's why I love doing that as well.
Will Aitken [00:15:44]:
That feeling for you on stage where you
Celeste Berke [00:15:45]:
Oh, jeez. You're like, I'm gonna die. I feel sick. Yeah. That's good. Right? Am I talking about? I forgotten everything I've ever learned. I can't know where to
Will Aitken [00:15:53]:
come from. Yeah.
Celeste Berke [00:15:54]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Will Aitken [00:15:55]:
It makes you feel alive, though. Right? Like, that's what it that like, without that feeling, then life would be kinda boring. And I realized that I haven't had that feeling in so long when I started making cold calls a couple weeks And I was like, oh, I need to do this more. Yeah. I need to do 5 4 more more things that made me feel this uneasy, sweaty, clammy hands because
Celeste Berke [00:16:12]:
I get it. I get it. Rachel and I Did some cold calling. She was via Zoom yesterday, and you're like, but it is it is what it is if you're not practicing. And that's something that, you know, I love. Like I was saying, people who are real and authentic, who have time in the seat. I moonlight as helping some companies with their online Branding as well as helping our sales team learn how to prospect on LinkedIn. That's what I started doing.
Celeste Berke [00:16:44]:
I get asked to speak about it, do workshops. But this summer, when I stepped on stage in front of 350 people, immediate was like, I'm a little kid. I don't know what I'm doing. How am I here? How am I I only have this conference of 3,000 people. So I don't think that ever goes away, but the the awesome part is People see you every day online doing the craft. So you're not just teaching about it. You're actually doing it, and you're sharing the Missus as well as the winds. And that's a huge part of, I think, people that Can resonate with others who are real in the sales seat.
Celeste Berke [00:17:24]:
Like, are you doing it too? And that's a huge miss from sales organizations who have VPs and CROs were so far removed from what happened from day to day. Yeah. Just close more deals.
Will Aitken [00:17:37]:
Yes. Because more deals, do more calls, make more calls, make more send more emails, have more discovery calls, just talk to more customers. It will all get better.
Celeste Berke [00:17:43]:
So I'm I'm curious
Will Aitken [00:17:45]:
like drowning.
Celeste Berke [00:17:46]:
Why you said you love sales. This is your superpower. Why launch this prospecting like that? Why is that your arena?
Will Aitken [00:17:59]:
Why the prospecting thing? Mhmm. I mean, honestly, I I would like to talk about all aspects of sales, but And, you know, I I told you about this before we hit record today. I don't feel comfortable. I have what I would consider original ideas when it comes to prospect. Or at least I have enough experience or enough of of listened and Heard and been taught by enough variety of people that have been able to perform a unique perspective of some kind. I believe what I have to say about prospecting And how to make a coke win, how to send an email, and the focus of all these things, and how you bring that all together in a message that actually resonates, gets people going from I'm not looking To hang on a second. This sounds interesting. I know I have something there that I can say is is mine and it's unique.
Will Aitken [00:18:50]:
If I was to try and go and do a discovery workshop right now, I feel like it would be too close to say that isn't mine, and I need to still find that. And I'm not sure how that happens, but What I would end up doing is just teaching cap songs to people or a crap version of it because I've only you know, I've never been taught by Kean, and I've read his book 6 times. I've had Sandler training, which has some parallels at least, but but, like, then I'm only gonna be teaching Sandler's people. Right? And at which point they could probably get it for much less from a franchise near them. You know what I'm saying? So, like, I have I call imposter syndrome or maybe a moral compass that says I cannot I'm not I shouldn't do that Until I have a good reason to do that. So for now
Celeste Berke [00:19:35]:
Or you're building it in stages.
Will Aitken [00:19:37]:
Or I'm building in stages. Yeah. I think a lot of people try to do too much as well. If I can if I can nail this 1st part and I can show that I can I can sell it and I can get demand and people want it and people care about it And people say this was amazing, then that gives me more confidence to do more of it? And that's maybe when I branch out to more things. But for now, I think I think there's a real problem out there. I mean, I I feel I feel like a lot of the like, the the the SDR, BDR model for a lot of outbound teams, a lot of account now going full cycle that no. I'm really get to that well. We get so tied up in this this vacuum chamber of LinkedIn, this echo chamber, should I call it, it's a vacuum, Well, we assume everyone knows the basics that not to write long ass emails that are full of pitchy language, talking about their solution, how innovative it is, and How it's gonna 8 times their pipeline or whatever their result.
Will Aitken [00:20:30]:
You know? But then you realize that's, like, A tiny fraction, like the smallest fraction of all the people out there who are actually selling. And it's like normal it's actually quite a quite a good Fraction. Generally, people who are on LinkedIn, people are probably looking for more place to learn and probably already know. And then you go into a sales team And you look at their emails, and it's like, oh, how did this happen? And it's because I believe that, like, the people at the Tom, don't realize this. Intuitively, when you start in sales and you don't get from the guidance, I told you about my experience in sales when I was making all excuses and blame my territory. I was making all these mistakes. Intuitively, you think you're meant to show up and pitch. You think you're meant to show up and be polite and say that I hope they find you well and ask are you at the start of your cold calls and
Celeste Berke [00:21:16]:
Right.
Will Aitken [00:21:16]:
And b, like weather. And make it and make your things sound good. You know? Like, That that's that's what we assume. Like, I don't know what it's a stereotypes or the way we're raised or just like what we think sales is. People just go that's their default. And you need to have someone come along sometimes and just go, no. Like, I had that, like, blindfolded for me when I actually finally got good training and and sales start becoming fun and Lots of just like a grind and just doing tons of this. Once I'd start having a process and doing things the right way and asking the right questions and knowing why People show interest in why people buy and why they don't buy.
Will Aitken [00:21:51]:
If you don't know any of that, then you just just have to kinda wing it and wing it often is just Awful.
Celeste Berke [00:21:57]:
Yeah. And I and I'm seeing that with teams too. It it stinks from the get go of everything, and I think there's this real opportunity for change right now as baby boomers I hate to say it, as baby boomers exit and New leadership comes into place. We can't continue to do what we've done. You know? The early sales training that I got when I was 27 was definitely banned, and it still freaking exists because my husband showed it
Will Aitken [00:22:24]:
to me
Celeste Berke [00:22:25]:
the other day. Here is your qualification checklist. Are the questions that you need to ask on the 1st freaking call, and I remember that from 15, 16, 17 years ago. Cringey. I believe we're still in this place of order
Will Aitken [00:22:38]:
We assume that people know this by now. But, yeah, you and I know it, and half the people connected on LinkedIn and you follow me on LinkedIn know it. But that's, like, 40,000 people. There's, like, a 1000000, millions of other people out there who aren't part of that, who don't know that yet, who haven't been shaking like, no. Stop asking them if they have the timeline, budget, and authority to buy. What are you doing? You know?
Celeste Berke [00:23:00]:
Or, like, what is your what is your role? How big is your team? Like, All the things that you can educate yourself on. Ahead of time, I had a rep at a huge company tell me the other day They don't have enough questions to ask to fill up 15 minutes of a discovery call. And I said, okay. Okay. I mean, Our discoveries are usually 2 or 3 calls. Right? I I'm so confused. What are you focusing on? And, again, very. No.
Celeste Berke [00:23:27]:
They don't record their sales calls. Nobody's listening to them. They're not getting any training. How do we break this? Because it is still out there, and this is why buyers will say, I prefer a rep free experience.
Will Aitken [00:23:41]:
Yeah. Of course, they will. Because they jump on a call of an SEO goes, Celeste, do you have the budget for this product? They're like, I I don't I I don't know how much it cost. Can you tell me? No. No. No. You get that later. Do you have the need for this? I I think so.
Will Aitken [00:23:59]:
What I wanna find out. Can I have a demo? Yeah. Sure. Sure. That comes later after this call and then a discovery. And do you have a timeline? Yeah. Soon, ideally, less than 2 calls from yeah. Okay.
Will Aitken [00:24:11]:
Alright. Cool. Alright. I don't think you're qualified, so I'm not gonna introduce you to an account executive. Course Buyers don't want that. Who would would want that? I believe that sales best practices when done wrong are bad practice. So a lot of what you teach, a lot of what Kean talks about, a lot of gaps and a lot of Selling good. Solution selling, let's just call as a branch umbrella because there's a lot of ways to sell better than that Yeah.
Will Aitken [00:24:33]:
Is asking questions. Right? But if you just heard ask questions is how you better go to sales, if you ask the wrong questions, then you're actually gonna be probably worse off than just giving the buyer everything they want and just showing a demo. You're asking bad questions, like, you just kinda annoy people. I believe that every sales best practice when done the wrong way is, like, the worst thing you can do. But I think about, like, Challenging your bias. That's quite when you do that the wrong way and just tell people they're wrong, you just are, like, basically being an arrogant douche. Alright. But when you do it the right way, you can actually change people's perspective and move their criteria from silly things that they they should be on.
Will Aitken [00:25:09]:
But When you do it the wrong way, you just seem like an asshole who who who thinks they know better than a c level executive when realistically you're just a rent sales rep who's probably not in quotes. Right? Like
Celeste Berke [00:25:21]:
Who ideally do you want to work with? If you could have your pick.
Will Aitken [00:25:26]:
What's your
Celeste Berke [00:25:26]:
Who is an ideal customer Company that you wanna go in there and change that behavior.
Will Aitken [00:25:46]:
I'd tell anyone who who has a natural solution rather than a commodity. I think there's a category of people out there who think they sell commodity, but don't realize they don't. I think I talked these people, and they're like, well, well, we don't sell this software that changes the way people do it there. Because I just sell A piece of machinery that goes in that machine that buyers look at the line item, which you're trying to get the best deal for. I'm like, that can still be something. Then you can still be a solution if you know what the problem is because everything, every solution Has a problem that and and people just don't realize it without flipping on its head. The moment I start saying this makes you faster, I'm basically saying you're doing it too slowly today, and that's the problem. And I don't think people would think about that enough.
Will Aitken [00:26:36]:
I I was talking to someone the other day who does outsourced developers in Colombia. They're like, well, I've got a commodity solution. There's there's so many people reaching out to people about Outsource developers. Okay. What do you do differently? And they're like, well, we we provide convenient, well educated, and affordable Developers, I'm like, okay. Slow down. You've almost said it. You you're so close.
Will Aitken [00:26:59]:
You're this close. Affordable. So what's the problem that solves? The fact that our staff today, expensive as heck. You hire the wrong one, even more expensive. Convenient, what's wrong does that solve? The fact that it's really hard to find good developers these days, even harder if you hire the wrong one. And all this time, every moment they're not hiring a developer For a founder who's trying to scale a star or get some funding or has just got some funding, they're they're burning money all that time. And they're like, well educated. Okay.
Will Aitken [00:27:32]:
So what's the problem with themselves? Like like, they're so close to it, but they're so focused on, like, what's good about it. They don't realize that there's There's there's there's what's wrong with the way that people are doing it today? And that person thought they had a commodity situation when I told them that, like, fireworks were like, oh,
Celeste Berke [00:27:46]:
fuck. Like, questioning my whole life right now.
Will Aitken [00:27:48]:
Yeah. Like like, he was, like, show shocked. I was like, because I get those emails about outsourced developers in in in Colombia. And I've never seen one that said, hey. I noticed that you're a founder. A lot of founders struggle with, like, Trying to find people like, trying to find the right people. They know it's too expensive to hire a developer, but they're worried that when they hire someone from Colombia, they're gonna be rubbish. But, again, the educated part.
Will Aitken [00:28:16]:
Right? So, like, that's when you start to find these problems and solutions. And in prospecting, you can only assume when you get to the discovery, the demo, and everything like that, we ask real good questions to uncover for the prospecting, you have to make a hypothesis. That's kind of what I'm trying to teach people now.
Celeste Berke [00:28:29]:
Love that. I'm I'm super sick excited to support you. I know that our team is a huge fan of you, not only on your online persona, but that you've arrived at this place of trying to be a change agent of bad behavior. And like you said, it's not a process. Like, if a coach teaches you how to run a 5 k and they tell you to turn your feet out and you're running with your feet out the whole time. You're not improving, but you still think you're doing the work and you're checking off the box. You're not going to get to that end result because you're probably gonna end up in pain and you're gonna hurt yourself and you're gonna I have poor form, all that stuff. So doing it poorly is probably worse than doing nothing at all, but you're taking this huge risk on yourself in order to amplify this cry for help that is out there that we have to change What we are doing because it something really bad is going to happen.
Celeste Berke [00:29:29]:
There's going to be a breaking point with companies where
Will Aitken [00:29:34]:
would argue it's already been happening for some time now. The one thing I will say that's very frustrating, in this past couple weeks, I've realized how little A lot of folks actually care about their job doing it well. How
Celeste Berke [00:29:48]:
A little bit louder for those in the back.
Will Aitken [00:29:51]:
Like, I am shocked that like, they don't I I don't know if it's checked out or burned out or what it might be, But, like, people
Celeste Berke [00:30:01]:
I think it's also the lack of lack of consequence is what I'm finding.
Will Aitken [00:30:07]:
The the consequence are here. We're seeing that. We're seeing these these these teams, these huge layoffs, these people missing targets.
Celeste Berke [00:30:12]:
Right. But the people who are
Will Aitken [00:30:14]:
okay to fail.
Celeste Berke [00:30:15]:
The people are getting laid off are the people who are doing the day to day. Right? There's
Will Aitken [00:30:20]:
Yeah. The ICs.
Celeste Berke [00:30:21]:
Correct. So when when we're talking, and I've Seen it a lot, especially since is team's win rate of, like, 10%, whatever, 20% on inbound, right, a close rate, decline in sales, weak pipeline. Like, all of these indicators discount 1 company discounting a 100% of the time at 50%. I'm like, why? But there's no
Will Aitken [00:30:46]:
There's no shame.
Celeste Berke [00:30:47]:
There's no repercussion. I'm like, you're going to miss your target by 5,000,000 this year. And then and you're increasing by 40% next year, like, on this trajectory. And they're just like, I'll keep going. Like It's I'm just finding it before.
Will Aitken [00:31:01]:
Like, there's no shame to it, and I think it's because it's become the norm. Okay. Everyone everyone's failing. Alright? It's not just me. If everyone's failing, it's alright. It's kinda like when you're in the test and you're like, oh, I got a 50, but don't worry.
Celeste Berke [00:31:14]:
There'll be a curve.
Will Aitken [00:31:15]:
Bob over there got 44, so
Celeste Berke [00:31:17]:
I Yeah.
Will Aitken [00:31:17]:
I'm not lost.
Celeste Berke [00:31:18]:
And they'll probably be, like, a curve. So really I got, like, a 90.
Will Aitken [00:31:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's on a curve. Everyone's failed except for, you know, the 1 person who's actually doing things right over there. And you're like, well, they're just they're just lucky. No. Come on. Be accountable.
Will Aitken [00:31:34]:
Be ashamed. Want to do better. Own your stuff. The things we spoke about earlier, we have to own it at every level of the way. If you're a sales rep, if you're a sales leader, if you're a company founder. You're an owner. Even if you work in marketing
Celeste Berke [00:31:49]:
Even if you're a
Will Aitken [00:31:50]:
you need to own it.
Celeste Berke [00:31:51]:
Or a board member.
Will Aitken [00:31:54]:
Own it like it's your house. You would be ashamed if your house had windows falling off and, like, it was cold inside, and your kids were shivering themselves to sleep. This is your life. This is your thing. Own it. Make it yours. Be proud of it.
Celeste Berke [00:32:09]:
This is where I take my yeti and I just drop There. See? 1 of my awards fell.
Will Aitken [00:32:20]:
More energy drinks.
Celeste Berke [00:32:22]:
Last question, because this has been awesome, and I know with that we've gone over is
Will Aitken [00:32:28]:
Quite right.
Celeste Berke [00:32:29]:
One sales myth You want to bust.
Will Aitken [00:32:43]:
I don't wanna upset you.
Celeste Berke [00:32:45]:
Go ahead.
Will Aitken [00:32:47]:
Alright. I believe that there is Because of the bad work the other sellers have done, those things we mentioned earlier, the banks, the crappy processes that Completely make buyers feel like they hate sales. People never wanna talk to them. I believe there is a now a a a duty for a lot of sales reps to to give In order to get. And I feel like this can smooth things over in a way that that shows people that you're not like those other people. And and you can ask great questions. Sure. You can be informed, and you can have a hypothesis.
Will Aitken [00:33:21]:
You can you can you can know the root causes and impacts of their problems. But I believe that you can show someone a product on the 1st call and not mess up your entire sales cycle. And in fact, doing so can speed up your entire sales cycle because even when you gaps out perfectly And you uncover this massive problem, this root cause, and you know the root cause is so that your solution can come in and is, like, designed to solve. And the impact is so big that they cannot possibly not change and they will need to buy. And and and the status quo cannot go on any longer, and you've done all your great work. You uncovered that. Because of the size of buying teams and the risk aversion, the fact that 10 people need to be involved in, like, every sale even when it's, like, a 5 figure deal. Right? Like, a 10 gauge deal, but, like, don't need to involve ops since, like, guy guys, it's it's $10,000.
Will Aitken [00:34:12]:
Like, I could personally spend $10,000. Like, what your your million you're like a $50,000,000 business why you weren't anyway, regardless, I they they go, okay. This is all great, but before I involve other people in my team, I want to see it myself. And I believe by by by just showing them a little bit of the peak behind the camona. I'm not talking about the whole thing. Yeah. But, like, if they've told you that, hey, my problem is this and this, you just go Screen share. Bang.
Will Aitken [00:34:36]:
Bang. Sound like it solves it? Great. Now we can have a demo, and you can feel comfortable inviting all your team. So sounds fair. Despite the fact what it says in chapter chapter, let me see. Chapter the demo. But it get Page 1, chapter 11 of gaps selling Of my copy that is not signed by Kean. It's signed by Rachel, which I would argue is better.
Will Aitken [00:35:04]:
I I'm okay giving a demo sooner.
Celeste Berke [00:35:07]:
Do you believe If Ken would have said, at times, you can at times, a a Slight peep into the products on the 1st call is warranted. What do people hear? Yes. What do people hear?
Will Aitken [00:35:26]:
They hear Every time.
Celeste Berke [00:35:28]:
I can demo on the 1st demo on the 1st call.
Will Aitken [00:35:30]:
Right? That's permission. Every time. Yes. And this is so very true as well because sales reps who have a process Oh, good. Sales reps who know that their processes is is gonna work most of the time, but there are times we have to go off process, those are the folks who win. The folks who know
Celeste Berke [00:35:46]:
Yes.
Will Aitken [00:35:47]:
It's not a one size fits all, and sometimes you deal with someone who's come on, who is angry, who is being treat like that, and is like, And you need to you need to sometimes mirror them where they're at a little bit to match them where they're at. And that that's that's, I think Yeah.
Celeste Berke [00:36:00]:
Affecting. I think the dip the differentiation is This is talking about establishing a behavior, a foundation that can then be grown from because what we've seen and and I'm sure with your clients as Well, it is you you gotta start with the crawl. Right? And you're talking about individuals who are walking and running who can Yes. In and out of that. And absolutely, I remember going through my training and seeing an a the AE that we had at the time on a on a discovery call. Say, Keenan's gonna kill me for this, and he showed something in relation to the conversation, and it was totally appropriate. But you're talking about someone who is it is this at an elevated status Yeah. With their skill set.
Celeste Berke [00:36:48]:
So I While I understand that myth, I'm I'm in support with the caveat of
Will Aitken [00:36:56]:
Yeah. There there's a book out there, and and we're gonna finish off this be the finishing note because we're way over. But I had so much fun to last, so thanks so much. Alright.
Celeste Berke [00:37:03]:
So, I mean, you're just, like,
Will Aitken [00:37:05]:
I just have so much more respect for you now, and I just know you
Celeste Berke [00:37:08]:
do your brain anyway.
Will Aitken [00:37:09]:
But I
Celeste Berke [00:37:10]:
Likewise. Likewise.
Will Aitken [00:37:11]:
I've had so much fun. But there's a book out there that I read last year because I set myself a chance to read, like, 50 sales books. I didn't hit that goal. I read, like, 26, which is still quite a lot and still Reigned supreme. But the point is I read a book, and it was about selling your way. And I think that can be that can be really good advice For those folks who are running, I do believe that when you start, you need to have that, like, those those rails to learn. You you earn that right To know when the process is broken. When you start, if you if you are to find against the people who are trying to teach you and do know what's best for you, assuming they do know what's best for you because man, just don't.
Will Aitken [00:37:50]:
Let's be real. By being a pain in the butt and going, I know better. Oh, no. I'm gonna sell my way. You're actually hurting yourself. But once you've earned that right passage, I think that's when you start to see, okay. I've been here before, and I know what mistake I made last time, so now I'm gonna
Celeste Berke [00:38:03]:
Yeah. Agree. Agree. It's time in the seat. It's like a parent when your child begins to walk and you're there with, like, the hands hovering a little bit. Right? Like, I got these guardrails up, and Then you ease into a little bit, and they start to move on on their own. Have you read have you read this?
Will Aitken [00:38:23]:
The Dip by Seth Godin. No. I have read a couple of Seth Godin.
Celeste Berke [00:38:26]:
But look how little it is.
Will Aitken [00:38:28]:
So small. Such a little book.
Celeste Berke [00:38:30]:
Oh, good.
Will Aitken [00:38:31]:
If I had have read a if I had just read books that size last year, I would've hit my goal. But every now and again, the one just hits you at 550 pages.
Celeste Berke [00:38:37]:
No. This is, like
Will Aitken [00:38:38]:
Dale Dale Carnegie likes to use the words from 18th century as well.
Celeste Berke [00:38:42]:
No. 70
Will Aitken [00:38:42]:
came for
Celeste Berke [00:38:43]:
reading well. 5. But I think you and I have been at this time. Right? You're at this dip this point where you want to give up, and it's like, This is this is when it starts to get good. So every year, this is a good little reminder of, like, don't don't give up. This is the cliff. Like, you're
Will Aitken [00:39:01]:
quiet right now.
Celeste Berke [00:39:01]:
You're almost there. But I do love that. Selling your way. Thank you. Thank you.
Will Aitken [00:39:05]:
Yeah. Okay. I I think it's a good book for experienced sellers, but I do would not recommend it to a new seller because they would get totally the wrong idea. That one is sell without selling out by, Andy Paul.
Celeste Berke [00:39:14]:
Okay. Oh, Andy Paul. Yeah.
Will Aitken [00:39:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know.
Celeste Berke [00:39:19]:
So
Will Aitken [00:39:19]:
that was the name of the podcast guy.
Celeste Berke [00:39:21]:
We've reached a couple of messages.
Will Aitken [00:39:24]:
I read that. I found myself nodding along going, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But if I had given this book to me 2 years ago, you would have screwed me big time. You know what I mean? It's a book for someone who Who has earned the right to to to to to to have autonomy, I guess.
Celeste Berke [00:39:41]:
I love that. Well, tell us a little one synopsis. Where can people find you? What are what are you currently offering? Will Aiken dot
Will Aitken [00:39:53]:
Oh, sorry. This is by yourself. Okay. Yeah. So my name is Will Aiken. You can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on TikTok If you're onto into that, you find me on YouTube these days making woodworking projects, nothing to do with sales.
Celeste Berke [00:40:03]:
I saw the desk.
Will Aitken [00:40:04]:
Will. I saw him. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Still here, and it's it's still 1 piece and still flat, which is better than anything else I've made out of wood. My coffee table upstairs is, like, Warped in this holes and the the wood for anyway. But it's Will Aitken.
Will Aitken [00:40:18]:
That's a I t k e n. It's not Atkins. If you call me Will Atkins, I will I will be personally offended. So there you go.
Celeste Berke [00:40:25]:
And And
Will Aitken [00:40:26]:
also you go to willakin.com Yes. And buy some some good merch. If you're on YouTube right now, look at this.
Celeste Berke [00:40:31]:
Email finds you well.
Will Aitken [00:40:33]:
I hope this email finds you well, plus a myriad of other silly tales T shirts.
Celeste Berke [00:40:37]:
Well, I loved it. Thank you so much for our time together. Individuals Can find you online, follow along with content, and also stay tuned for what you are about to do in 2024, which is give us a little peek behind the curtain, the day in the life of a founder led founder led sales. Right? And what it's like to hear those noes, be hung up on, but also share some wins and funny accolades along the the way. So thank you so much. It's been a pleasure sharing and learning about your journey. We will see you on LinkedIn.
Will Aitken [00:41:09]:
Thank you.
42 min

About Celeste Berke

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Welcome to "The Sales Edge," the podcast exclusively designed for B2B sales professionals seeking to excel in the rapidly evolving business landscape. Join us as we delve into engaging interviews with industry experts, thought leaders, and seasoned professionals who possess invaluable insights into the world of B2B sales.

In each episode, we explore the dynamic nature of B2B sales and uncover the latest trends, strategies, and transformations that are reshaping the industry. "The Sales Edge" provides a platform for our guests to share their wealth of experience, highlighting how sales methodologies have evolved and what's new in the B2B sales arena.

Through thought-provoking conversations, we explore the groundbreaking techniques and innovative approaches that successful B2B salespeople employ to navigate the ever-changing market. Our guests offer practical advice and tangible solutions to help you enhance your sales performance and gain a competitive advantage in the B2B sector.

From leveraging cutting-edge technologies and analytics to adapting to the digital age, we examine how sales professionals are capitalizing on emerging tools, training, and platforms. We delve into the psychology behind B2B buyer behavior, dissect the power of personal branding and new-age prospecting, and explore the strategies that drive meaningful and profitable connections with clients.

"The Sales Edge" transcends theory and provides real-world insights, as our guests share their triumphs, failures, and invaluable lessons learned. We explore how B2B sales teams are harnessing problem-centric selling, using data-driven decision-making, capitalizing on social media and digital channels to connect with prospects, and successfully navigating the nuances of remote selling in today's competitive marketplace.

Join us on "The Sales Edge" as we uncover the secrets to B2B sales success in a rapidly changing business landscape. Whether you're a seasoned sales professional seeking inspiration, a veteran sales leader or new to sales leadership strategies, or an aspiring salesperson entering the dynamic world of B2B sales, this podcast is your go-to resource for valuable insights and practical guidance. Tune in, take notes, and gain the winning edge necessary to thrive in the fast-paced and ever-evolving world of B2B sales.

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