Celeste Berke

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]:

Hello. Hello. It is Celeste Berke Knisely here on The Sales Edge Podcast. Super excited to welcome the lady of LinkedIn, a female who is out there advocating for other women in sales and marketing. I'm so excited to to interview you today and hear your story, Ashley. Ashley, tell us a little bit about what's been going on in your role. Well, first of all, if you're listening, you won't be able to see her T shirt. If you watch this on YouTube, you will.

Celeste Berke [00:00:27]:

It says, I hope this email finds you well. That's a whole another topic that I'm sure you're diving into, but please let's stop using. I hope this email finds you well. I actually wrote back to someone the other day, like, it did not find me well. I didn't respond, but I love those, so tell me about what's going on in your world, Ashley.

Ashley Coghill [00:00:47]:

Yes, so I am in a unique spot right now. I've been in sales for 11, 12 years, at least tech sales, a long time, and I just recently took probably my longest time away that was not maternity leave. So I'm coming off about a month and a half of of time off and I'm starting a new role in a week ish, so Very different for me. Usually, I'm hustle hustle, so this is great, but in my downtime, I actually rejoined a roller derby league. So I've been playing roller derby is what I've been doing in the past couple of weeks besides the podcast and all of that good stuff. But

Celeste Berke [00:01:24]:

Yeah. So your podcast when I pinged you the other day, I was listening to your podcast with Samantha McKenna. Always such a pleasure to hear what she has to say about showing me you know me. It can go not just about sales, but dating as well Yep. And with our spouses. Like, show me, know me by listening to what I say and also those nice things that we allude to with our spouse, so I think those words resonate beyond the sales org. So roller derby, how long have you been doing that?

Ashley Coghill [00:01:57]:

I started skating in 2009, I believe, So pretty long time. I skated pretty competitively for a long time and then had a couple breaks, had some babies, did all of that, and then COVID actually shut roller derby down for 2 years everywhere. And then moving to Portland, which I just recently did, the biggest roller derby team in the world is located here, so it's a very large league, and I decided to transfer in while I was in this transition. So just actually made a home team, so I actually get to be on a team within the league, which is really exciting. So dang,

Celeste Berke [00:02:35]:

I've never seen roller derby in action. I always thought it was, like, pretty badass, especially on the women's team. I'm forgetting the movie the

Ashley Coghill [00:02:43]:

With it?

Celeste Berke [00:02:45]:

Yes. Yes. So I did see that. That's about as close to roller derby. Well, it now makes sense, the skates that you have on your LinkedIn profile. So you've been in and around the sales space, probably very similar parallels to roller derby with, like, the ups and the downs, the opponents, your competition in sales. You don't know what to expect, a lot of preparation, then it's go time. Did you fumble? Not like a football, but

Ashley Coghill [00:03:10]:

Fumble your body.

Celeste Berke [00:03:11]:

Over your skate, and you fell. Do you have bruises? You have to pick yourself back up. So as you've navigated this sales roller coaster, we'll call it, what has stood the test of time for you? Kind of your sales edge, your it factor that helps you to stand out.

Ashley Coghill [00:03:29]:

Yeah. So I think I have a little bit of a unique, not that unique anymore, background where I started in retail sales before I moved into tech, and working retail hours really sucks. If anybody's ever done it, that's the worst. I was selling eyeglasses. I was an optician. Moving into tech where I was able to work from home sometimes or remote or all of those things, I was so grateful for it and I think some of that, like, diverse background where you have that hunger, because I was also making crap money compared to what you can make in this world of sales. That that's kind of the edge because you're like, Well, I could be slanging glasses and making 35 k a year instead of what I'm doing now. This is so much better.

Ashley Coghill [00:04:16]:

I am not going to let this opportunity pass me by, but I think, truly, at the core of it is that every time I'm in a sales role, I have to feel like I'm helping people. So I have to figure out, like, what is the thing that's actually making someone's life better? When I come into a conversation believing that I'm helping someone instead of feeling like I'm selling them something or trying to trick them. It's always just a better way to feel about yourself. I think just makes everything better for everyone, so it was kind of 2 answers.

Celeste Berke [00:04:48]:

Yeah, I love that we talk often on our team about really detaching from the outcome, and a lot of sellers I know are so tied to what's my quota, where am I, gotta get the sale, this is what I have to close, and showing up as Riley had said on one of our interviews with this commission breath. I just did a webinar about it last week as well about this detaching from the outcome. I actually broke it down when you're in sales, showing up to station ensuring that their life or the conversation is enriched and they're able to walk away with value and you shared your expertise whether they ever do business with you or not. So it sounds like you're in that same vein, and where did that switch comm from trying to sell to I'm here to help. When when did you think you arrived at that place?

Ashley Coghill [00:05:39]:

I don't think I ever wanted to be a salesperson. So my negative connotation like, the negative mind thought process of what sales was when I was in retail sales. I was embarrassed that I had a quota when I was selling glasses because I was well, I'm supposed to be helping people pick out the right frame or, like, actually be able to see. Right? And it felt a little slimy to also have a quota and be, like, well, if I don't sell these glasses to this person that I'm not gonna hit my number. I had to kind of think about that as, like, what am I doing that's gonna help these people and selling them these glasses is a good thing because they're gonna be able to see, but when I actually got into tech, Someone had to teach me the idea of the funnel and I had never thought, oh, this is your goal and you go up and you have to put this much in the top. So as I'm learning Salesforce, they're teaching me about the funnel and they're telling me how I should be on calls. I was getting on the phone and I immediately was like, okay. But how am I helping these people? And so I've always done it and it was one of those things where people looked at me like, what do you mean you're going with the app? This is how I'm helping you.

Ashley Coghill [00:06:47]:

So it wasn't really a switch. I think it was something that I had to do in my brain to feel okay with the fact that I was a salesperson, because it took me several years to actually feel like, I wanted to be a salesperson. It was a fake it till you make it kind of thing, and then when I finally realized that actually helping people is what sales is. That's when I was able to accept that I was a salesperson and feel proud of it, instead of being like, well, I'm in sales. So I think it came from trying to somehow lie to myself that sales was a good thing, But accidentally stumbling into what we're really supposed to be about anyway, which might be a little backwards. I think some people go into sales thinking, like, we have to trick people. Yeah. And I just that never sat well with me, so I just didn't do that even if that was the expectation.

Celeste Berke [00:07:38]:

Yeah me me neither. It's you know interesting my background I started in nonprofit and then I got into sales because I saw all these people in sales, and I thought, well, I wanna be taken seriously. Let me get into a sales job, and then people would say, oh, you're in sales? And I would do the same, like, Well, I'm not really, right? It's so gross. And then you arrive at this place of sales doesn't have to be icky, like, we have to stop assigning this putting all salespeople in a bucket that just like your shirts.

Ashley Coghill [00:08:14]:

Thanks, Will Aiken.

Celeste Berke [00:08:16]:

Right. Shout out to Will Aiken in his merch. It is when these behaviors are forced upon people where it's not natural, and we're stepping outside of our natural abilities that, yeah, we're having to fake it and doesn't feel natural to us nor comfortable, and the prospect can probably feel that too. And it it's funny, Rachel, who's my coach in gap selling because I'm a partner. I also get my own coaching every single week and my own 1 on 1. So it's a lot of business development too. And a couple of weeks ago, she was like, would you stop with your stage presence on sales calls? And I was like, what do you mean? And she said, you go into this, like I'm presenting. I'm in corporate.

Celeste Berke [00:08:59]:

This is what I am because of this this. And I was like, I am? And it's funny because the other day, I went, and my husband got me a gift certificate for my birthday. So I was like, I'm out. I'm gonna have some mom time. I never do this. And the ladies were, like, you're so funny, and I was just being myself. And I realized, like, that's what she's talking about on sales calls, like, stop being so buttoned up. People can see through that.

Celeste Berke [00:09:26]:

And I think that's what you're alluding to, this place of your showing up as your authentic self, really trying to help someone and detaching from the outcome.

Ashley Coghill [00:09:34]:

Mhmm.

Celeste Berke [00:09:35]:

Awesome. Well, superpowers come in a lot of forms, and I think women carry those, especially those who have tiny little children around as well. You mentioned this remote shift, and I think there's a lot of myths of more work gets done in the office. How has that shift to remote work from a quality of life standpoint for you.

Ashley Coghill [00:10:03]:

Yeah. So I purposefully one of my law of attraction things That I was focused on when I started in tech was work from home. I wanted remote, so I've been doing remote work for a lot longer than some of the people who started after COVID. I was remote fully remote before that with one short stint where I attempted to work in an office right after having my daughter go. So remote was something that was really important to me, but I'm also very extroverted. And when I got my 1st remote job, they said, hey. Just want you to know, like, we're fully remote. Nobody is required to go into the office.

Ashley Coghill [00:10:39]:

You might be sad because you're not gonna have a lot of people to talk to if you do come into the office, which for me was a good thing because being extroverted means I get very distracted when there are people in the office to talk to. So It's better for me to be home if I want to truly get the work done. That short stint where I was actually commuting down town. I was in Chicago at the time taking the red line train 45 minute into and I had an infant, so I would have to drop her off, hop on the train, walk downtown, get to the office, and I would get there. I was never the first one in the office, because I had to drop her off. Right? Like, it's not like I could get there at 7 AM, and it was crazy because I would get there and I'd be like, alright. Let's get to work, but people weren't actually doing anything. They got there early, but they weren't doing anything, And there'd be maybe an hour where people are on the phones, you could tell that they were working, but most of the time they're hanging out in the kitchen.

Ashley Coghill [00:11:34]:

My male coworkers that sat on other side either side of me would go to the gym for an hour and a half at lunchtime every single day. I wouldn't do that because I'm like, I gotta get my work done so I can leave and go get my daughter because I have to get her before 5 o'clock or else I'm not even gonna Right. See her. So and then I would be looked at, like, she's leaving at 4:30 again because it was the only way I was gonna get where I needed to go. And that little brief like, I left that job purposefully to go back to a remote role because it just did not work with my lifestyle. I think that that experience was very telling for me, because I thought maybe I am missing out on something by not going into the office and I can I can clearly say that's not true, because it was horrible for my my lifestyle? It was terrible for me. I was stressing all the time, I was rushing all the time and when I was in the office, it was still, like, felt like I wasn't getting anything done. So remote work, I promise you, if you've got people that you're forcing into the office, you're not getting as much work them.

Ashley Coghill [00:12:42]:

It's just not it's just not a thing, and if you've got parents on your team, it's just ridiculous. It's really weird to me that having people come in at 7 a. M. And leave at 6 o'clock, but, take hours in the middle of the day to go to the gym and go have lunch and do all of these things. That's more okay than a mom who gets there Soon as she possibly can, works her butt off the whole day, leaves, and then probably logs in and does stuff again after her kids go to bed, like but the optics of that, they thought that guy was being more present versus the woman and that's very not okay. Right?

Celeste Berke [00:13:21]:

So Totally. Yeah. I'm I'm definitely in that camp with you. I remember doing that, right, going back at 13 weeks and then you're pumping, and you're constantly worried about that and sitting in meetings. And, yes, if if the clock is ticking, you're sitting in traffic. And are you gonna get there? Are you gonna start charged because you're not picking up the child. You're in this constant state of high alert all of the time, which isn't a great place to be in if you're also trying to have work output. So kudos to you on knowing that that's something that you need not only for yourself but also for your family and that you can be just as productive, if not in the framework that fits your life but that also shows your employer.

Celeste Berke [00:14:08]:

It doesn't really matter what the hours logs are. It is about the output and the productivity and giving back to the team and being part of it, and I've seen a lot of employers make make a miss on that. So, hopefully, as this launches, you've selected a new place and you announce that, and we can celebrate that that you're still going strong and working remote, into 20 24. So the last question I asked guests, so I think it's so interesting. There's so much sales advice out there on what we should do, what not to do, and then it changes when new tech comes out or, you know, an influencer drops something. What is a sales myth that you'd love to support or bust that over the years was told to you and you've thought I'm not so sure about that anymore.

Ashley Coghill [00:14:58]:

Yeah, That's a really good question. I think one of my biggest pet peeves, and this is maybe a sales myth, is that everyone has to start as an SDR and then be an AE and then go into leadership or whatever that looks like. I do not believe that every single person should be an see our I don't believe every single person's gonna be good at being an SDR, and I also believe that people could be really great at AEs if they're not good at SDRs. And I think it all depends on the role, the company, the product, the segment, and I think it's really annoying when influencers or whoever comes out and says, well, you have to have full cycle or you have to have SDRs or you have to have your SDRs report to marketing or, like, all of these different things that they're lumping into one spot where it's that's just not the way it works. We need to adapt to what works for our prospects, our ICP, like, what we're actually selling and to whom. If we're selling an enterprise, very true enterprise thing, an SDR is probably gonna have a very hard time jumping into that And doing a really, really good job versus if you have a super short transactional sales, taking an enterprise seller Who's a closer and popping them in there? They're gonna have a really hard time, and I think that it's a miss to pay them all all these, like, oh, well, an enterprise seller is worth so much more than a transactional seller. I don't think that's true. I think that they are just totally different skill sets, And I'm sick of everyone getting lumped into buckets and not being allowed to try different things.

Ashley Coghill [00:16:29]:

If you fail at being an SDR, that doesn't mean you're not gonna be a killer closer. You. If you fail at SMB, like, super quick wins, that doesn't mean you're not gonna be amazing at enterprise. I think it's It's doing us a disservice as an industry to tell somebody, well, maybe sales isn't for you because you weren't good at these SMB. It's a totally different skill set To sell transactionally than it is to do to nurture someone for over a year to get them to sell. I think People who can do both are very rare, but it's awesome. And I just think it's unfair that you like, I think that somebody who's an amazing SMB Sellers should be allowed to continue to do that and still continue their career and be really successful and make a ton of money without ever feeling Pressured to become a manager or go into enterprise sales. I just don't think that that's the way that it should be.

Ashley Coghill [00:17:21]:

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that's what you're going for with miss,

Celeste Berke [00:17:23]:

but totally totally on onboard with you there. I remember my 1st sales job. I didn't have management experience. I'd never sold anything. I'd never been in the industry. I went through 7 interviews, got the job, and it set the precedent for that company that somebody doesn't have to check all those boxes in order to excel. And when we are checking the boxes as an organization versus looking at it as like a puzzle. Right? How are we fitting people together? What are we lacking in 1 and constantly massaging that, finding better success Verzuz.

Celeste Berke [00:17:53]:

Like you said, a lot of people posting. Lots of times, it's men. Sorry. I'm just gonna say it, but I don't see a lot of women out there posting. This is the path that you have to go. And especially now when we're trying to elevate women's voices, there are nontraditional ways in order for you to get into sales leadership. To be an AE. Doesn't mean you have to excel here or won some award or crush quota.

Celeste Berke [00:18:16]:

I mean, there are amazing sales leaders out there that don't have great track records in selling. And that's okay because there's so many lessons learned in the losses and the opportunities than in always having a win. So I agree. I don't think trophies matter. Just like in roller derby, you probably learn a lot from every time you fall and have a misstep where you check someone. I don't know if it's called checking.

Ashley Coghill [00:18:42]:

I'm sure

Celeste Berke [00:18:42]:

you when you're leaning your body into them, you're learning all of those nuances, but you learn a lot through the losses, not always the wins, and sometimes that is often overlooked. So thank you so much for shedding light onto that. Any final words, tell us your podcast. Where can people find it? What can they expect from it?

Ashley Coghill [00:19:05]:

Yep. So Ashley and Katrine's infinite revenue playlist. It is me and my cohost, Katrine Reddin. It's sponsored by Commsor. So big fan of them and Mac Reddin who also, does this for us without any expectation of ROI to produce the podcast. The whole point is elevating women in revenue, so sales, marketing, success, Anybody who's touching money, who's a woman in in business, basically, that's who we wanna talk to, and our idea is that by interviewing people like Sam McKenna and then interviewing people who maybe don't have that that huge following but have something to say. We can get those voices out there so people can hear from women who are Amazing and learn from them and it's kind of fun because we do have that little twist where everyone picks the walk up Song. So there's actual playlist.

Ashley Coghill [00:19:54]:

So you can find the podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and then the actual playlist is also on Spotify if you wanna hear all of the women's walk up songs compiled together, which is it's a pretty good it's a pretty good playlist.

Celeste Berke [00:20:07]:

Yeah. Definitely. I love that. And I was thinking the other day, I have to hype myself. I'm an extrovert, so I have to, like, pop myself on when I'm, like, going on camera or delivering a webinar. This year, I did a webinar for 500 people, you get anxiety over that, so I like to play the eye of the tiger song. Nice.

Ashley Coghill [00:20:27]:

Like, talk to anybody speak to that one

Celeste Berke [00:20:30]:

yet. Yeah. That would be that would be it. Or, you know, we're we're huge into the frozen playlist as well over here with my toddler, so that doesn't as much pump me up, but see my little one get pumped up. I so appreciate your time. Definitely, people can connect with you on LinkedIn. You have a lot to say over there elevating women's voices, and I'm so excited for this next chapter and to stay in touch. Thank you so much for being our guest.

Ashley Coghill [00:20:57]:

Thanks for having me.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:

Hello. Hello. It is Celeste back with another episode of the Sales Edge Podcast. I'm super excited to welcome Mason Cosby onto the show today. I have been following Mason, for a while and was formally introduced by I know some of the listeners are gonna be like, Riley? Was it Riley again? Riley? Yes. Riley, the unicorn of LinkedIn, and was so excited when Mason made the decision to go out on his own and really hone in on his area of expertise. So let's hear Mason's story. Mason, kick us off.

Celeste Berke [00:00:38]:

Tell us what you're doing.

Mason Cosby [00:00:41]:

Yeah. Well, first, thank you for having me. Excited to be here. Celeste, I'm excited to speak directly to a sales audience because I I kinda sit at that intersection between marketing and sales. I spend a lot of time speaking to marketing and don't spend as much time getting Speak to sellers. So really the core of what I'm doing is helping companies build account based marketing programs without the $200,000 tech stack. And I'm a firm believer in the concept of the crawl, walk, run approach to ABM. The challenge that most people experience is Nobody likes crawling.

Mason Cosby [00:01:13]:

Everybody wants to immediately run. They see the signage of new technology. They see if you go and invest in this Tool, you'll get a 700,000,000 return on your investment. And it's like, there are a lot of situations and factors that helped Get that return on investment. It likely actually wasn't the tool this much. It was probably their strategy. But, again, tools are shiny. They promised, generally speaking, a quick fix when in reality, you need the right foundation.

Mason Cosby [00:01:40]:

So where I'm focused is helping Marketing and sales teams first nail the handoff between marketing and sales through what I call activation plays. And once you've got your hand off nailed down, we then can go and build a more repeatable evergreen ABM type program. So that's what I'm doing, helping out quite a few clients Build out those programs.

Celeste Berke [00:02:03]:

So I love how you said you're at this handoff between marketing and sales. If anybody here Seizis on LinkedIn. You're probably chuckling to yourself like, oh, the love hate relationship that marketing and sales have together and, really, who is this go between of what happens when sales turns things over to marketing. Is sales pointing the finger at marketing? Is marketing pointing the finger Sales, and you have identified this sweet spot. And so tell us a little bit about making that decision of going out on your own because a lot of people listening are also entrepreneurs, or they're in this space of how did he make that decision to leave a job, right, as a w two employee to go out on your own.

Mason Cosby [00:02:47]:

Yes. I mean, I I've been building scrappy ABM in a much smaller capacity for about 9 months. And I just had a couple of clients. I did decent work for those clients, and, you know, that was all I expected it to be. And then I launched a podcast called Scrappy ABM and started to talk through the ideas and the concepts. And I threw up kind of a 1 page website, which, At this moment, website is still a single page where you can book a call. And, when I made one post on LinkedIn that announced, I haven't heard of this podcast. I've got this website if you wanna book time.

Mason Cosby [00:03:24]:

I just expected a couple more clients to come in that I'd like potentially help. And in about a month and a half, ended up closing $300,000 in revenue. And what that showed to me is, okay, this is the right message at the right time. I really need to think True. Because even even in the concept of, like, what I had launched with Scrappy, I mean, there weren't clear packages. There wasn't clear pricing. I was just like, you can Work with me on something. So, honestly, a lot of these discovery calls were like, why did why did you book a call? Like, what are you doing here? Like, I I I have a it's a concept.

Mason Cosby [00:04:03]:

It's like a problem. And they're like, I know, but we need to solve the problem. And you talk about this this playbook that you've run before. Can you help us do that? And the playbooks kept coming back to, again, these concepts of activation plays. And the more I thought through, what are the core reasons that ABM fails, And what's what's the market doing, and where is there a gap in the market? I really found the gap is helping set up the right foundation, helping people do a crawl in the crawl, walk, run approach. Because, again, like, if you think about the ABM space, I don't know of another service provider that is dedicated to serving that crawl space, to building the right foundation, to helping someone take those first initial steps into actually building a sustainable program. So, again, it was really market feedback of I pitched out more of the problem as opposed to the solution Right. And said, like, this problem really hurts, and, like, here's a couple of ideas on how you can solve it.

Mason Cosby [00:04:58]:

And the market came through and said, I completely resonate with that and would like your help solving it. Yeah. So that's how I made the decision.

Celeste Berke [00:05:05]:

And I love how you're talking about problems over product. The problem came first. You didn't even know what the product was gonna be because you have this whole suite of experience and ways that you can help. And you and I talked prior as an entrepreneur, get shiny object syndrome as well. We see money dangling in front of Face, and we wanna grab it. And that takes us further away from staying honed in on. This is how I can help people, and these are the problems I solve. So We are all team problem centric approach here, product second, and it sounds like that is resonating with potential clients as well.

Celeste Berke [00:05:39]:

And I know having a little one, and you also have a very little one, this whole stage of We want, as parents, to get through the hard times. The sleepless nights and the crying and the colic and the teething, and, I mean, that's coming down the pipe for you. And to get to this place where our kids are grown up, they love how you are saying, I am helping teams with this foundation, this crawl approach, because everybody wants this ideal future state. But if we don't build it and we don't focus on the Skills and the Foundations. You're not gonna get there, but you're gonna spend a lot of money trying. So thank thank you so much for sharing that. And it's Funny because I am delivering a webinar later today. And we're constantly talking about what problems do you solve, what problems do you solve, and individuals don't know the problems that they solve.

Celeste Berke [00:06:31]:

They talk very, like, technical problem, like a broken process or tool. And when I was talking with Rachel, who's our general manager, she was saying, How are you going to teach someone how to do it? And it's that same concept that you have of this crawl approach of Someone can tell you, go crawl, go walk, go do this. But until you're saying, no. This is step 1, and this is step 2. This is how you do it. This is what it looks like. This is what it feels like. You're not going to build that solid foundation.

Celeste Berke [00:07:01]:

So I I love that you're in this place of knowing, and I think that leads right into the the question I love to ask guesses. From a scrappy marketer. What is your sales edge?

Mason Cosby [00:07:15]:

We talked about this a little bit, I mean, I'm just really bullish on this problem. And it's such a foundational problem that people resonate with that, like, if you've again, essentially, like, if you've tried ABM and it didn't work and then you hear any of the content that they put out, you're like, oh, yeah. I get it. Because, essentially, all of my products directly tie into research backed proven problems that people experience, and it's all the reasons ABM fails. So there's that component. And the other component is I think I truly am a market of 1 in the sense that I don't know of any other service providers that are dedicated and so bullish On no. This is just take, like, step 1. Again, most people, when they think about ABM, they're talking about the, Like, large scale, we've built this program that delivers 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars in pipeline, and I'm like, cool.

Mason Cosby [00:08:08]:

How do you source the first Deal. And I'm really bullish on just making sure that we actually think through not step 100, But, like, step 1, step 2, and step 3. And I'm very comfortable and very confident saying, I can help you nail the first 3 steps, And then that's where our engagement's likely going to end. And you're gonna get graduated to a larger agency that can do more of the run and the sprint, or You're going to be self sustaining on your own because, surprise, surprise, people are actually really intelligent once they've actually gotten something rolling and they're pretty intuitive. The greatest challenge for everybody when it comes to these kinds of programs is how do we essentially break our organization intentionally? Because ABM is organizational change. So how do we intentionally break our organization and then rebuild it right? Once you've rebuilt it right, you can typically just run from there, but it's the hard part of, like, I have to break the organization for a little bit.

Celeste Berke [00:09:10]:

Yeah.

Mason Cosby [00:09:10]:

So I'm just I think that's my sales edge. It's just, like, knowing the problems that I solve, solving those problems, And kind of being a market of 1 because I don't know to be all serving this space as a dedicated business.

Celeste Berke [00:09:24]:

Alright. So Love that you're staying in this lane and also this whole concept about change management. Companies hate change. Individuals hate change. It is so difficult. But when we see that there's a problem and we know that there's this huge chasm, if we don't do something, are we willing to stay in the state where we are, Orr Is the Problem Big Enough That We Attack It, Even If That Means That It Causes Some Change TO Our Organization. Something else that I want to talk about is this concept of these big myths that are out there. You know, we work with a lot of companies who will say, No.

Celeste Berke [00:10:03]:

I don't have a problem. Like, our win rates are 10%. Okay. Well, what were they last year? They were 15. And then we dive into, Alright. How much is in the pipeline? You know? Where is this coming from? Inbound, outbound. We really start to break it down, and teams Sometimes aren't willing to look outside of the discovery, the sales process, the sales pipeline. And this is where I think your services come in because sometimes it's broken, like, way deep down before Ford even gets to the sales team from a marketing level.

Celeste Berke [00:10:37]:

So what is something, a challenge that you hear, or a myth that you wanna bust?

Mason Cosby [00:10:41]:

For starters, 10 to 15% close rates on your pipeline. There's definitely a marketing or a product problem at that point because that means your pipeline isn't The right people. So, yeah, you probably actually have a marketing or a product problem unless your sellers are just completely in that. Right. As far as an actual myth to bust, again, I I think it comes back to just this core concept of, Like, if you are trying to build a true revenue organization and a true revenue program, A lot of what we've done in the past is list a bunch of MQLs. An SDR team can then just go prospect into those MQLs that have actually no Real intent, and then we'll convert those into pipeline at 1%. But, oh, by the way, The conversion of 1% to pipeline, what's the actual pipeline conversion on those deals? It's it's abysmal. So, Again, and especially in our current environment, I think we're just both marketing and sales organizations are becoming organizations of more.

Mason Cosby [00:11:48]:

And, again, we all know it's quality over quantity, but in the current environment, we're continuing to swing towards quantity. So, again, I'm just in the camp of, Like, the myth to bust is identify not an MQL model and an MQL score. That is they read 30 blogs. We should give them a call. But what are the tangible actions that somebody did that would indicate to us we should reach out to them? So, for example, are you prioritizing outreach to people that have viewed numerous product pages and the pricing page and then bounced off your website. Most organizations today with a basic HubSpot instance can get that information. So, again, that shouldn't be factored into the MQL model. That should be alerted to that contact owner almost instantaneously to say, somebody has viewed these pages.

Mason Cosby [00:12:39]:

They are in a buying research mode Likely. We can't guarantee it. But it's way more likely that they're buying research mode on your product if they've viewed those specific pages and they bounce off the schedule a call page Then they are reading your blog content. So, again, mapping who we pass over to sales to actual tangible actions and intent as opposed to They opened up enough of our email newsletters to say we should give them a call.

Celeste Berke [00:13:07]:

The more is more concept He's definitely not working in sales. I think everybody's been on high alert this week with what's happening with emails and and Outbound and what we're going to do. But taking that step back to look at what is going on in my organization, And am I willing as a CMO or a CRO, VP of sales, CEO, am I willing to build this, to take the time to look at the foundations and what's going on in order to seed it for future.

Mason Cosby [00:13:40]:

CMO, CRO, or CEO.

Celeste Berke [00:13:42]:

It's this change management piece of is an individual in an organization willing to go down the path of Change in order to set that foundation for future. So what if someone doesn't? What happens in an

Mason Cosby [00:13:56]:

If you go straight out of You don't have the appropriate foundation. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1, you'll you'll fail, and, I mean, that's pretty Pretty standard. You try something, it fails. And from there, you can either assess, again, oh, we didn't have the appropriate foundation in place. This is where it failed. You can do Mortem. And I actually don't think that's a bad thing because at that point, you're actually fixing specific gaps that are actual known problems.

Mason Cosby [00:14:22]:

So that may not be a bad thing in the long run. The other thing, though, is if you fail, you may throw the baby out with the bathwater and say, oh, this doesn't work at all. So, again, you may fail. I think the other thing that's worse is you have 1 successful program and campaign that was kind of the shot in the dark that happened to work. And now you've set an expectation of something that should be able to deliver consistently when reality, it wasn't a repeatable program in the 1st place. It was a very fortuitous shot in the dark that may have happened to land a large account, and now you keep trying to hit these results that were never going to be attainable again. And, again, at that point, it's the baby is with the bathwater's not gonna get thrown out because it works. Why isn't it working again? You're just gonna continue to actually run up against a wall, try to figure it out when in reality, you should have set the right foundation.

Celeste Berke [00:15:18]:

Foundation is everything. And definitely wanna close this out here. You share a lot of great content about what you're doing, problems in an organization, setting that Foundation. What are those indicators? What should someone be looking at? But you're also sharing this amazing journey about being a new dad and and building in public, which is so fun to watch as an entrepreneur. If someone wants to get ahold of you, What would be some leading indicators happening within their organization that if they listen to this, the light bulb moment would be, hey. I need to reach out to Mason in order to have a chat.

Mason Cosby [00:15:55]:

Yeah. So there are really 2 situations that make the most sense. 1, You serve a very niche specific targeted audience, and you are saying we need to be better at engaging this audience to get them into our pipeline. We should build an account based marketing program, but we don't know where to start. That's a great fit for me. The other is you've tried ABM, and it it didn't work Because of any number of reasons, which likely comes back to wrong strategy, wrong foundation. In that context, if you are bought in philosophically on the concept of But you need help strategically and tactically on the implementation, that's where our team can help. So those are really the core 2 areas in which we'll be able to help client the most.

Mason Cosby [00:16:37]:

And if you wanna get in contact, there's really 2 main places to reach me. LinkedIn, very active. Mason Cosby, not Crosby. If I were Crosby, I would probably be far richer and a little bit more handsome and Have a far more successful career in the NFL. The other place to reach me is scrappyabm.com. I have a calendar booking link so you can actually book time directly with me.

Celeste Berke [00:17:00]:

Awesome. Awesome. And I will say if you are also, going to Google and typing, what is ABM, maybe worth a conversation with Mason as well if if if you're wondering, like, what the heck is this, and what does it entail, and what am I missing out on as things continue to change? And I love how you stated it's not about running out and buying the latest in tech and building your tech stack, but really looking at the foundation of how do you propel your business forward, Make A Change. How do you set the teams up for success? And then you really coming in as this go between of sweet spot marketing and sales and playing together nicely in the sale in Sandbox, and now is no better time to start. Well, I appreciate you spending time with us today. I have learned so much. It is a continuous process in our businesses. So while we love to work with teams kind of like MQL through close, we really focus on Discovery and and sales skills and enabling teams to look at deals, but we don't talk about what happens before that.

Celeste Berke [00:17:59]:

And that's such a great marriage of of where you come in. So for Everybody out there listening, I hope that you've had some great takeaways from Mason. Mason, I look forward to staying connected with you on LinkedIn and seeing what big things come out in 2024. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today.

Mason Cosby [00:18:15]:

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:

Hello. Hello. This is Celeste Burke nicely on The Sales Edge Podcast. I'm really excited for this episode as we are going to talk about a hot topic floating around the Internet and LinkedIn, which is what are we doing with outbound, so I'm excited to have that discussion today with Raul. I'm gonna have you say your last name here in a weekend because I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it justice. Appreciate you being on the show even though it's end of your day in this being. So Raul with Amplemarketlemarket, give us a synopsis of who you are, a little bit about background and also a high level overview of the AMP market.

Raul Perdigao [00:00:43]:

100%. Thank you so much. So the name is Raul Perdigao, But you can say Rahul, no problem whatsoever. But funny enough, I started in banking, and I worked in banking for roughly 6 years. But then after that, I found tech, back in the day, you know, NFCs and etcetera. And then I started rolling it into tech. And eventually, I started up working with a lot of startups and services and software as a service. And right now, I have been working on scaling teams, building sales teams For, companies that have been, focusing on hypergrowth at a global scale.

Raul Perdigao [00:01:17]:

So working a lot with remote teams. This. Lately, I have been privileged to work with AmplemarketlMarket. AmplemarketlMarket is all in all compound solution that covers all of your efforts When it comes to outbound. So we will cover that a little bit from multichannel to how to use your emails properly. And we have been incredible success successful on managing everything top of funnel before it goes into your CRM.

Celeste Berke [00:01:44]:

Excellent. Well, it's interesting. We were connected through one of your counterparts who actually found me on LinkedIn because I have a podcast and I was putting out content and she found me and we'll be talking about a partnership later as this airs, but I'm curious I always ask guests what is their sales edge, and you and I were talking earlier about you having some insights into what what's happening with this dirty word outbound and your team being prepared for that many years ago. Tell us about what makes you unique? You said you came from banking and then you went into tech, so you've kind of seen it all in this evolution of how in the past couple of years tech has really skyrocketed. What is unique about you in these roles where you're helping shape that hypergrowth.

Raul Perdigao [00:02:41]:

Mhmm. I was I was really fortunate because I I was able to be on both sides of the barricade, to be honest. I was mentioning to you, I had an experience, Where I was managing a pipeline that was fed by inbound 100%. So I was very fortunate, and people came to me and said like, you No. Like, that's not selling. You know? Like, you're cheating because you're getting the leads from your marketing team that has a huge budget. But then it's really interesting. I the other side as well.

Raul Perdigao [00:03:07]:

You know, in Amplemarketlemarket, we basically we dog food a lot, so we do a lot of outbound. And a big part of our results, big, big part is effectively driven by outbound. And so we also wanna practice what we preach. And within our demos, when we go and deep dive into the technology, We really wanna make sure that we use what we have built. And our founders, they really went through The not only how to do use the right data, but one of the things that they were really focusing early on early on is how Can we make sure that the message will be delivered? Right? So that's critical here. So really, really early on, the founders were really keen on figuring out Deliverability. You know, like, what effectively makes you escape the spam room? You know, like, how can you get around that? Like, How you should be warming up your mailboxes. Without going into, a lot of tech very details into this, but, you know, like, there's a lot of of Of of points that you really need to account for when you're doing outbound for setting up not only your mailboxes, but all the way up your domains.

Raul Perdigao [00:04:14]:

All your authentication. A lot of people are starting outbound without doing this. So you really need to go back, sit down with your IT guy or your ops guy, and make sure, Let's double and triple check all the certifications, all the authentications, and making sure that our domain is properly set up. So a lot of times, Even before you do start doing outbound, we can help you. But, like, really, really make sure that You're doing everything on the background even before you start because otherwise, it will not work definitely.

Celeste Berke [00:04:46]:

So similar to so my husband's an endurance athlete. He's he's always watching the Tour the Tour de France and all of the riders from Spain and from France because he's a huge cyclist as well. A lot of people will put in the effort of, I have the right shoes, I've gone to the doctor, I've had a physical. I've looked at everything. I've had the blood drawn and had labs done, all of those things before you start excessively training. I take my electrolytes before they even step out on the track or get out on the bike. And what I hear you talking about is companies and individuals are so quick to jump on the we're going to mass message everybody, and then they create a lot of noise on social media when things go wrong or there's, you know, boundaries put in place on how much you can email. Right? What's happening to your domain? Because all of that stuff, nobody's talking about the technical side that's not as sexy or fun as all the outbound messaging.

Celeste Berke [00:05:49]:

So it sounds like you're saying before we run, we need to do all of the prep work on on the back end.

Raul Perdigao [00:05:58]:

100%. And, you know, like, coming down to one of the things that you were mentioning, for example, Just thinking about the domains. We engage with a lot of people, and we help a lot of companies that come to us saying that We are not even able to receive emails anymore. So that's, like, a very red line position to be in, like, a very bad spot. But we have people that, you know, like, they are not Getting any type of open rates or even reply rates, obviously. But just why? Because they burned their domain. So just to start with, like, you shouldn't be doing outbound from your main domain. You know, like, make sure like, we are not doing outbound from amplemarket.com because that, we save that to Talk to our investors.

Raul Perdigao [00:06:39]:

We save that for our founders to use for very official communication. So we have different domains. That's like the 1st step. You know, like, you you need to think, like, if we eventually burn one of these domains, or if it eventually gets flagged Starting February, everyone is very keen on this. You should have a domain setup or a a subdomain or a new one. And within those, you need to set new mailboxes and more. And the thing is you cannot do that in February. Like, you need to do it right now because they will need 2 months to warm up.

Raul Perdigao [00:07:13]:

Right? So you need to warm up your email. So you're like, I will set it up. In 2 weeks, I'm doing outbound. No. So this is a this is it's really interesting that you brought that up because this is a marathon. Like, outbound is a marathon. It's not like I'll buy it. I will use it tomorrow.

Raul Perdigao [00:07:28]:

Right? Like, no. No. No. You'll buy it, and you'll start using in 3 months. Right? Because this is an investment. We will work side by side with you. So a lot of times people come to us and say, I want the same results in inbound. Let's shift into outbound.

Raul Perdigao [00:07:42]:

Well, I have bad news for you. Right? Like, I really have bad news for you, but I have also good advices. Right? Like how to set this up properly. You know, like there's some key functionalities we we have in in in Amplemarketlify Marketing. Like for example, placement tests. Like, basically, we are able to trigger tests weekly on every single mailbox that you use. And even before you use them, we will let you know, Are they landing in spam or not? Or what's the the likelihood of that happening? So you see, like, these type of very specific features leverage a lot of value behind it Because you will maintain this guardrails. Because, again, you you are the manager, but the SDR doesn't care.

Raul Perdigao [00:08:24]:

They will click and they will Send. They will blast. Right? So you want that, like and there are tools out there that that will alarm, That will trigger those and say, like, hey, don't use this mailbox. Like, use other or use that subdomain because that one is better than this. So these are the type of things that you need to be on top of in, like, Every other day or every single day going through what's happening in your business, and this will secure your continuously performing in outbound. But it's not transparent of that. Right? Like, people don't talk about how hard it is.

Celeste Berke [00:08:56]:

And who are you finding understands this within an organization that really is your champion for the let's crawl before we run. Who is that persona within an organization. Is it the IT department, or is it someone in sales who who can understand what is 3 or 4 steps down.

Raul Perdigao [00:09:19]:

Mhmm. That's a great question because it it really varies on the organization. You know, like, we have a lot of very well educated salesperson, working with us that did outbound before. I will say normally, you know, like, the the guardian angels sit in rev ops. Yep. So those are the ones, you know, like maintaining the tools, like, making sure that everything is up Like, everything is controlled. The reports are there. So I will say, normally, those are the ones that we really help directly.

Raul Perdigao [00:09:47]:

And they will set up the guardrails for The the outbound teams, you know, like the AEs to make sure that everything is is is performing as it should. But it definitely sits within management, so people that have a little bit more time in their day to go through all of these reports and understand, like, Wait a minute. Like, open rates are so bad this week. Moments. Right? So probably Someone doing outbound that only focusing on volume. Like, they will not I don't care. I will continue on click. Right? But when you have someone, like, Stepping back and say, like, why is our open rate dropping, like, drastically? Something is happening.

Raul Perdigao [00:10:24]:

So then you start digging. I will say normally that Either sits with management, or even with, rev ops, sales ops. They will take the time to deep dive into this, and they will okay. Like, we need help. Like, we probably should Be looking into a warm up system.

Celeste Berke [00:10:38]:

And then your team's helping them with those red flags to look for, how to read the reports, how to be in front of that growth before they hinder themselves. And I can see teams that are in hyper growth mode. It it is difficult to say we need to put something in place and then sit on our hands for for a little bit of time in order to do that effectively, how are you mentoring those companies through that, let's say, that bridge, right, that that gap between their current state and their desired future state.

Raul Perdigao [00:11:14]:

Mhmm. Definitely. So we we publicly state that we are against spray and spray. Right? So we really wanna make sure that we wanna talk to the right people at the right time with the right message and be really, really effective at at this, Making sure that the sales teams are very productive and effective on the way that they are mating all of this multichannel. Right? So that's a given. But when when companies start working with us, we we wanna make sure that they have, for example, all the check boxes when they onboarding someone. Right. So imagine that you're onboarding me.

Raul Perdigao [00:11:44]:

Right? Raul Pradigal. I will say it again. But the thing is, as soon as you have that name, like, by the mailbox Right there, right now, that's the first thing that you'll you'll be doing. Raul will be working in sales. Here is the mailbox. First thing that you do, warm up. Right? So you have the mailbox. It basically warm up.

Raul Perdigao [00:12:03]:

Even if Raul joins in Europe, we normally tend to join a month, 2 months ahead of time. I know. So if you have Raul, you have a a full month to warm him up. So when Raul joins, he will be starting to Slowly and steadily doing his outbound approaches. He will be able to ramp up his volume. He will be safe. Right? So you'll be able to allow Rahul to Scale his mailbox and use more, build a couple of Elias. So it's so interesting that with this type of procedures that you have and people nowadays, they have this.

Raul Perdigao [00:12:36]:

They have all of these checkboxes to onboard people, right? So think about outbound. Like, think about everything that you need to build. That's where we get in. You know, like, we really wanna make sure that people understand that and help also your salespeople to succeed at outbound. So it's in your hands as a manager. And they have all of those playbooks ready. Understand, you know, like the best performance and it's really what doesn't perform, And really teach them on the best strategies and how to social selling. You know, like, don't put your features Right up front.

Raul Perdigao [00:13:11]:

You know, like, think about, like, you wanna talk about some something that people want to talk about as well. Right? Engage with people in Common interest interests. And then you'll be able to understand, like, why are you selling and what are you selling and why it's so valuable for them. But that's again, that goes into strategies. Like, let's focus a little bit more on tools as well.

Celeste Berke [00:13:30]:

Yeah. Yeah. And there's

Raul Perdigao [00:13:32]:

But I will say that.

Celeste Berke [00:13:32]:

The weeks leading up to this conversation, right, outreach. Everybody was posting about outreach and what they were saying, which is so funny because of what Outreach does at scale and putting out a statement, basically, that was this trigger warning for everybody to talk about, Oh, outbound is dead. Your domain is going to be burned, right? Everything is going to spam. Everything lands in spam. What was happening in your organization in in response to all of that on LinkedIn?

Raul Perdigao [00:14:10]:

Yeah. But basically, we we we we read it, and it's definitely something, like, we keep an eye very close to To to the provider. So we really wanna make sure that not not only we comply, but we are on top of those to be prepared. Specifically for these, like, I don't think that we are not preparing anything because we were anything because we were built differently in a way that we don't believe in spray and pray. So there are a couple of features that really helps us to make sure that we go after that performance for the end user. I'm not talking about the manager. I'm talking like the person that is effectively on the forefront on doing the outbound in prospecting. So for example, making sure that we allow people to automatically choose and send from multi multiple mailboxes within one click.

Raul Perdigao [00:14:52]:

Right. So basically, you'll have a dropdown. You'll be able to select all my Elias and send from these, use different schedules, And make sure that it's distributed evenly, so none of them are flagged. This is one click away with AmplemarketlMarket. Right? So is something that probably a lot of tools right now are scrambling. Like, how will we do this? You know, like, manageable multiple mailboxes. We automatically manage multiple domains as well. We are able to track and connect all of them within 1 account.

Raul Perdigao [00:15:20]:

We really wanted to make sure that it's seamless For you to use as an end user. You don't have to worry about it. We will do the distribution. Like, we will look into this. We'll do the placement tasks. We will look into the deliverability. We'll look into the reports. You as a user focus on getting the right people, talk to them, engaging with the right content.

Raul Perdigao [00:15:39]:

We also have a very interesting way on on Expanding that and making sure that we connect with a lot of people. And we have a, machine learning helping us out, I will say, to make sure that every single one of them will receive a hyper personalized email, within the same sequence. So that's another trick. You know, like, a lot of people, we come to us and say like, now how can I transfer, like, these 50 sequences that I use for all my ICP? And I said, well, I can tran I can translate that into 2 sequences that will keep all the personalization that you have, And let Amplemarketlify do the rest. Let the machine work for you. Yeah. So those type of, of, of things, you know, like making sure that you don't send The same subject line. You don't send the same composition.

Raul Perdigao [00:16:25]:

So the the email providers, they look at the composition of the email at, itself. You know, like paragraphs, Sentiment, how long it is. So you need to vary. You need you need to really understand what they are doing, what they are looking at for you to Not go against it, but play, by the way.

Celeste Berke [00:16:42]:

And It's interesting you say that. So 2 years ago, the business partner and I had that I had at the time we started to get into sequencing, and he had this totally robust Excel spreadsheet that there were all of these steps. I had to learn it at what point, but I laugh now, right, because because your team's out there doing this with one click and it would it would upload the emails, but then it would randomly pick, right, a subject line, whatever the salutation was gonna be and then the the body so that it was all randomized, so it was getting past all those filters, and I laugh because just a couple of years later, here we are, one click of a of a button, and and you can do that. But you learn Exactly. From all of that, and I think some of the downfall of what we're seeing right now is we are all so used to all these fancy tools and widgets and everything to make our life easier that we often jump right to, like like we said, that happy place, that final destination, that where everything is going seamlessly, and we forget when we're inside a business or managing a large team. We have to do all of those steps, and we have to ensure that they're in place for our team to be successful. And how do you think tell us a little bit about the founders having that foresight into what they were building because it sounds like they were a little bit ahead of their time and ahead of this curve as to not get caught up in in what's all the bashing of spamming and, you know, cold outbound is dead. You all were at the forefront of creating something that was ahead of its time.

Raul Perdigao [00:18:32]:

Not only. 100%. So it was one of the things that brought me to work with them, obviously. Right? So It's it's really interesting, and I tell you why they are so successful is they are not salespeople. So they they learn the hard way because, Like, our CEO is a graduate, computer science from MIT, and 2 other founders are basically, they studied physics in university in Lisbon. So as you can imagine, like, a little bit of strangers to the sales world. And they figured all of this out when they were doing sales, like when they were trying to sell their e commerce platform. Right? So that's why they took it in a in a very different perspective.

Raul Perdigao [00:19:08]:

And think about it 4 4 years ago or 5 years ago, We lived in a world where point solutions were the game. Right? So we have this software here that it's incredible on this specific thing that it does. Let's go. Right? So even investors were going in that direction. Like, point solution is key. And 4 years ago, they look at the portfolio of companies that you need to buy to do sales. Like, and Salesforce recently released a study that it's 10. On average, a salesperson has to log in into 10 tools.

Raul Perdigao [00:19:40]:

Right? So for from enrichments to data quality for email and dialing, etcetera. So, basically, that was the 1st vision. Like, we will build the 1st compound solution, really compound solution where one login will have access everything that you need to do for your prospecting. You know, I said that that was the vision. And right then, effectively, they start shifting into This needs to be, like, accomplished through email as well as one of the pillars of your multichannel approach. And then they soon really look into the social what's happening in LinkedIn. It's so powerful. So they they while they were learning and testing, they are scientists, so it's really interesting.

Raul Perdigao [00:20:21]:

They they took that perspective Everything that they do. So it's everything about trial and error, and you should apply that to outbound as well. If it doesn't work, iterate. Know, like, don't stick around for a month. I'd already in 2 weeks if necessary. And you will find the gold nugget. You'll have the moment, and then you'll multiply it. Right? So that's science for everyone.

Raul Perdigao [00:20:41]:

So they apply science to sales, and it's really interesting to see that it works.

Celeste Berke [00:20:46]:

Yeah. I I last month, I think I interviewed a scientist turned she's now in the GTM space, and she has the same the same takeaways as you, right? It's science. It's like yes or no. This failed, now we change, now we shift. Like, we aren't waiting, it's we're moving at rapid speed, looking at it through a, you know, a scientist lens is definitely it's kind of like that a b, like yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. So that's interesting. Well, I I also love to ask guests a myth they'd like to bust, it, and I know we touched on it or danced around it a little bit, but I'd love to hear from you. What is one myth that you'd like to to bust?

Raul Perdigao [00:21:31]:

Yeah. Exactly. It it is it's it's very much around this, communication as well that we have been seeing. The the myth is that Outbound doesn't work. Right, Laura? Outbound is not for us. I hear this a lot. You know, like, oh, we're good with inbound. And it it's, yet again, it's really interesting for me because I I came from a company that 100% inbound.

Raul Perdigao [00:21:50]:

And it was one of the thing that we heavily discussed with the founders when I joined. Well, I'm leading now a team that it's Very outbound focused and very outbound driven, but that's that's something that's, you know, like, we talked a little bit about here in this call. It's definitely that that outbound doesn't work. Right? And I'm not even saying that we should focus exclusively in email, but, like, Outbound doesn't work for some because they don't know how to iterate fast. You know, like and these projects take time, and a lot of them a lot of sales leaders jump into this, like, Okay. I have 2 months to make this work. And I immediately tell them, like, probably, Amplemarketlemarket is not the tool for you because, like, I wanna make sure that when I position a project with you, we will succeed together. And for you to succeed at them at at not only enter market, but to succeed at outbounds, it will take time.

Raul Perdigao [00:22:45]:

Right? And I will I will guide you through all the steps. We have an incredible implementation and customer success team. But I, again, like, I believe that I lost a lot of deals like this because I'm being very open. But the people that effectively, like, take a step back and say, okay. At least I will I will hear what Raul is about to say. Normally, we see a lot of this because the projects are implemented in a proper way where they healed a lot of success throughout, right, through the right communication, to the right setup, So the right mindset of the teams, the right training put in place. So I would think that's the myth. You know, like, a lot of people come with that concept, like, no, no, no.

Raul Perdigao [00:23:23]:

We are product led growth. Like, we don't need outbound. Outbound doesn't work. So if anyone out there is curious to to challenge, and I will be glad to jump on that call And and show a little bit of our statistics as well to to prove them wrong.

Celeste Berke [00:23:37]:

And and we're very much in alignment from a gap selling lens when we go through discovery, which is basically a diagnostic. Right? We're looking at what are the problems, can we help you solve, what's the impact, what's the gap, and sales leaders will tell us this you know, I have 30 days, and and for us, that's not realistic. We have to have a realistic understanding of is your team open to change? Right? Are the behaviors going to change? And then how are we holding individuals accountable internally through enablement. Right? There's this training piece, and then enablement has to happen just like with your customers. But, realistically, that 30 to 90 day window is when we start to see an an uptick in win rates or a decline in sales cycle, but we're we're not magicians. It it takes time. Human behavior takes time, and and individuals are very resistant to change, especially sales teams, especially tenured sales individuals. Right? You have individuals on your teams who have been there 20 years.

Celeste Berke [00:24:38]:

Right? Tech is new. This is what we've done. And I once saw on a tech company. They're in hospitality tech. It said grow or die. Right? Really, this, like, adapt or die. And I think we're all in this situation of everybody's screaming outbound's dead, and that's just 1 narrative that's going out there. No.

Celeste Berke [00:24:58]:

Outbound in the wrong way might be Dead, but taking the time and having realistic expectations and setting it up from the get go, you can continue to have success. It's just those that are abusing it or or putting it in a bad light. So what what does the future hold for your team? What are some things You all are looking forward to as as you move into 2024.

Raul Perdigao [00:25:24]:

Mhmm. So basically, our team has been working. It's it's interesting because it goes back again to the experience of of the founder because since the beginning, they apply, language models and machine learning. What, you know, like, when AI was not sexy, and it was called machine learning? Yuck. No one wants to talk about it. You know, like, but our founders were so keen on it. Like, we can get, sentiment analysis from emails and and automatically trigger automations or workflows from replies. So, you know, like, really interesting.

Raul Perdigao [00:25:53]:

You were mentioning outbound takes time. Like, it doesn't. Like, we are able to to extract the the sentiment and what people are effectively trying to transpire, And we can fast track. We can shorten the time that salespeople get into their inbox. We can cut it More than half. Like right now with Amplemarketlemarket, we we have solutions that will really allow you to automatically build All of your follow ups has dropped. You only have to skim through it and send it. So it's all of our perspective into AI.

Raul Perdigao [00:26:26]:

So we we had definitely a heads up because we have been working with machine learning for the last 5 years. So a lot of people are now, oh, we are building. No. We are we're we're already building. So

Celeste Berke [00:26:36]:

We're on to the next phase. Right?

Raul Perdigao [00:26:39]:

It's really interesting because we were able to do that. I mean, like, when when ChatChpT came out, like, it was basically a fast track for us to connect to their API because we already had everything built And the models. So we were able really able to scale velocity, and one of the main focus is also how we look into AI, Celeste, is We don't wanna replace salespeople. We want effectively them to have superpowers for, for them to have FaceTime. People will still have FaceTime with their prospects, with their clients. Everything else, we really wanna make sure that we minimize and we maximize their output. So that's where are we focusing our efforts, Like building not only a AI copywriter that effectively understands sales emails. It's not a email.

Raul Perdigao [00:27:23]:

It's a sales email. And AI replier that schemes through your inbox and drafts emails for you with all the valid propositions, with everything that you basically set up for your companies to succeed. We will do it for you. So I will say time efficiency and keep an eye because Amplemarketlify market is coming up with a lot of interesting features that will maximize the performance and will minimize the time that people stay, you know, like prospecting or mining or, following up. You know, like, the where every every salesperson will say that, but that will not be an excuse anymore if you're using Apple

Celeste Berke [00:27:59]:

Watch. And I loved how we we chatted early on about, you being a fan of of the gap selling book and really this problem centric approach to how do I get my sales the team in order or, you know, to to get away from product and all of these great bells and whistles, but to truly understand what is going on with with your buyer because I think to your point, not everybody, you know, if their expectation isn't in line, if they're looking to do something out of the scope of what you all feel comfortable with and the results that you can deliver. Being okay to say no and to walk away from that individual because you're there to solve problems. You're not there to just sell a product in order to, you know, increase revenue. It has to be the right individuals who are in alignment. They see that future state and are willing to go on on that journey with you. So so I loved how you mentioned that in the beginning.

Raul Perdigao [00:28:53]:

In regarding upselling, Celeste, it has been one of the ways that we win a lot of, deals from competitors. Basically, because we understand where they are, what are the risks Of their remaining Yeah. Where they are, and what are we effectively offering in terms of performance and efficiency. So what that's the value. And if you don't conduct a proper discovery call to understand that, because yet again, there's a lot of people out there doing outbound and doing it well. We really wanna make sure and that's the interesting part about gap selling because they're already doing it. So where is effectively the uptick On onboarding a platform like Apple Market. Right? So that's that's where it's really hard to sell, and you really need to nail it down on Making sure that you understand where they are, what are the risks maintaining that same path, and what will be effectively the the additional on having a proper platform that will allow you to ramp or grow even faster.

Raul Perdigao [00:29:49]:

Right? And that's where gap selling really gets into the game on understanding those and how the implementation could effectively get them into the new step into their sales process.

Celeste Berke [00:29:59]:

Yeah. Well, I've so appreciated you sharing some insights and and debunking the myth that outbound is dead. We've learned that outbound, when done correctly, when we take a step back and we think about the direction that we wanna go, bringing on new team members. We need to set things up correctly, but, also we have to be okay to ask for help when it's out of our area of knowledge. I struggle a lot with working with champions within an organization who are trying to get their VP or CRO on board that they do need a framework. Right, everybody's doing something else and how do we bring teams together, and they'll come back and tell me, oh, the VPs said that they're gonna handle it themselves. They're they're not worried. It is what it is, they don't want to bring an outside, and I think often it's swallowing our ego and saying, This is not my area of expertise.

Celeste Berke [00:30:51]:

I'm the one holding the team back. If I look for fractional help or I bring on, you know, a partner such as Amplemarketlemarket, I Can Get TO Where We Need TO BE, and that's okay. And so I love how you're there to support teams in realizing that vision but also being the expert where they aren't because, let's face it, most of us are not experts in machine learning or AI. It sounds like your founder founders have the finger on the pulse there, and I'm really excited in the next couple of weeks to dive in and see what your platform can do so that I can continue to be or start to become an advocate and support your team. So I truly appreciate you extending your day as I know it's a little bit later there in the day to be on here. Your team can or individuals can, of course, follow your team on LinkedIn or reach out to you personally if they have questions. For any VP of sales or CRO who has a team who's doing outbound and just doesn't know what the future holds or they're starting to see some red flags, they can contact you. Any any parting thoughts before we end?

Raul Perdigao [00:31:59]:

100%. There there's a light at the end of the tunnel. You know, like, and we we've skimmed through this news because we have been doing this approach, in the last couple of years. So we are very comfortable. And Yet again, like, not even in a in a head of sales perspective. Like, I'm really keen on engaging with people that really want to Set it up right, and I'm more than welcome to just connect with me in LinkedIn and ask a couple of questions. I'm an open book, and I love to share best practices. People understand what we are doing.

Raul Perdigao [00:32:30]:

They understand that the tool and the software goes along the strategy. And more than often, it eventually leads into a deal. But More than happy to bring some calm into the storm and effectively share some good practices that outbound is not that Not even close. So we just need to set everything right, and everyone will be super successful. I'm sure.

Celeste Berke [00:32:51]:

Great parting words. Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. Look forward to continuing to get to know the team. Thanks for joining us on The Sales Edge Podcast.

Raul Perdigao [00:33:00]:

Thank you.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:

And we are back on the Sales Edge podcast with Celeste. I'm here with doctor Robert Berke. If you didn't hear episode 1, stop right now and go listen to the previous episode where we covered all the things from Africa, Starting a business as an entrepreneur when you don't know what you're doing, the business lessons and the parallels in medicine and everyday life. PS, if you're almost 45 and you haven't gotten a colonoscopy, go get that as well. And my this is my dad, by way he was approached about a piece of technology, and I'm so excited for him to share the story because this is what many of us do. We have a piece of Technology, we think it's gonna be world changing. It can change businesses. He solves every problem that you have, and I wanna hear his story.

Celeste Berke [00:00:47]:

So take it away. 1999, some cowboy approached you.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:00:51]:

Well, it's, you know, actually, it was 2 brothers who were From Auburn, New York, which is pretty close to us here in in Western New York, had this product, then they brought and he said, we've got something for your practice, and we looked at it.

Celeste Berke [00:01:04]:

And what do you think at the time? Practice was what? 10, 15000 patients?

Dr. Robert Berke [00:01:10]:

No. But 75 100 patients.

Celeste Berke [00:01:12]:

75100. That time. Okay.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:01:14]:

Yeah. And I looked at it, and I said, this is too clunky. I mean, it was like it is you know, it's just like, alright. It it it just made no sense. But But

Celeste Berke [00:01:20]:

so at the time, you had gone from Handwriting, so you're Okay, Dolores. 75, 100 patients, handwritten

Dr. Robert Berke [00:01:27]:

We were 2 docs and Two physician assistants, I think. And we were, we had gone from handwriting our notes to Dictating that we we went to voice activated dictation, those didn't work very well, but then we went to dictation and someone, a lady in town, Was making a fortune on us, $40,000 a year on our practice alone, typing the notes out on sticky paper, which

Celeste Berke [00:01:55]:

we just stick

Dr. Robert Berke [00:01:56]:

into their chart.

Celeste Berke [00:01:57]:

Cut the different Peace is and put it in the chart.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:02:00]:

A paper chart. We had a a person doing that full time. And What do you what

Celeste Berke [00:02:04]:

do you do for a living? I cut out Sticky paper.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:02:09]:

But anyway but the nice thing was you could read the notes. They were legible, Which was a huge step forward. Okay? Because then then the patients were transferable from, provider to provider without you having to try to decipher the Hieroglyphics like the person who had done it before.

Celeste Berke [00:02:27]:

The individual for their whole life story again, which as a patient, I'm really annoyed.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:02:32]:

Mhmm. So I I saw this conference on computers and medicine in New York City, so I went and it was mainly about the large hospital systems And what computerizing them would mean. And one of the things which was eye opening was that it would cut down on medication errors in hospitals and just in the Extra dose of medicine that would be given to a patient who didn't need it, but that the order, because it was handwritten, wouldn't get taken off by the nurse For 5 hours, therefore the patient would get 1 more dose and didn't need it, and it would cost a hospital like, Beth Israel in New York City $1,000,000 a year in excess Dosing of medicine. Not that it was dangerous though it could be, but it it was that impactful. And I'm thinking to myself, well, this is, you know, And I had a friend a few years earlier who had been at one of the experimental programs in medicine. A guy named Weed had done it in Vermont and it was a touchscreen, actually. It was kinda unique for that time, but still, it was very early stuff. Well, about 6 months later, these cowboys came back again with this program.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:03:48]:

We looked at it and it was really a lot better. And we said, okay, let's go. And so we purchased

Celeste Berke [00:03:57]:

And what was the investment at the time?

Dr. Robert Berke [00:03:59]:

The investment was $120,000.

Celeste Berke [00:04:01]:

K. So we're talking a big investment. Right? But also a completely

Dr. Robert Berke [00:04:04]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That meant change

Celeste Berke [00:04:06]:

what your team was doing.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:04:09]:

Right. But that was software and hardware for everybody, meaning everybody was sitting in front of a screen and, You know, printers, the whole thing, prescription printers, you know, there was a lot of connectivity,

Celeste Berke [00:04:25]:

the wiring, the whole thing. 75 100 charts in your office as well.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:04:29]:

That's right. To to convert. Yeah. Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:04:32]:

We I know this team who's

Dr. Robert Berke [00:04:34]:

been Yes. As you were you're yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I know. Well, ultimately we did the conversion and then these charts, 75100 of them had to be mothballed for, If they were a kid 20 years, if they were a person x number of years, just safety, and we can brought that data in slowly, But that was $120,000 which we had anticipated we would pay back in 4 years. Well, what we didn't understand was that we were 2 to 3 weeks behind in accounts billable because of the paper charts.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:05:21]:

That shrunk To 2 to 3 days. Okay? We paid the 120,000 off In 6 months. Because it shrunk our receivables down. Like, we had just Cash sitting out there Right. That sat out there for months because of the delay in billing, and suddenly it it came in. And so The thing paid for itself. And then we started to find that there were problems with the system, And we would call these people up, it'd be fixed the next day. Call it up, they'd be fixed the next day.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:06:03]:

And then they started asking us, look, when you find yourself, please let us know. Can you be a beta site for us because like obviously and they said you know we we load 3. Every month we start 3 practices. One goes like this, 1 goes like this, and 1 goes like this, and you guys are going like this, and we were just flying and We just kept, you know, going and going and going, and ultimately, you know, we're 20 4 years later on the same system, we're still they tried to poach some of our people because we were giving them so much information on how to run the thing That they, you know, are calling us for advice and everything else, and now everybody is using stuff that we've built in. That wasn't me. It was just all of us We had built, and this is some of what getting back to that adaptive entrepreneurism, what I instilled in my staff What I said, if you see something that isn't working for you at the clerical level or at the nursing level or at the billing level, don't sit there and keep your mouth shut. Say something And let's look at how you can help improve the system because that is the way you have this continuous improvement, a A learning, environment, and it's a learning, business. And you're constantly and and Even today, we're doing the same thing.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:26]:

Yeah. We continue to do that. And actually, there are parts of that system now that we built for them in a sense. Told them, look, You've gotta do this because of that whole story about who gets a colonoscopy, who gets a a pap smear. If you come into the office, the first screen I see Tells me what you're missing.

Celeste Berke [00:07:44]:

What's missing?

Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:45]:

Well, yes. But what's missing is also what's missing with respect Getting back to what we talked about in the last session, I think it was the last time we chatted, about the incentives That we get reimbursed for for getting people to do. It's all in there. No matter what you want, you can put in there their birthday, You know that it it it lights up that it's their birthday today or this week. I mean, you can put in whatever you want. And we just kept feeding, and we can now do that in our own system and and tailor it to whatever want, but we also keep telling them about enhancements. Anyway

Celeste Berke [00:08:21]:

And that is what's commonly known today as EMR, electronic medical records. So when most of us, unless unless you're in a super rural area, are going to the doctor, they're on the screen. And you've also

Dr. Robert Berke [00:08:35]:

But wait a minute. So then

Celeste Berke [00:08:38]:

Yes. Now you've been active.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:08:41]:

We've realized that There is a every every cloud has a silver lining, but every silver lining also has a cloud. And what we found was Patients were complaining they weren't complaining about their prescriptions being sent in or being printed off and we finally came very quickly to Them directly going to the pharmacy without any paper or anything like that, but what they were complaining about was the doctors sitting there like this all day, you know, and not making eye contact. And it's a problem with your date entry.

Celeste Berke [00:09:12]:

What they were saying or people like me. Right?

Dr. Robert Berke [00:09:15]:

You are, you can't date entry, Especially a guy like me who doesn't type very well can't enter everything they're saying so they come in next time and they say, you know, we talked about this and it wasn't in the old record because I was too busy talk because they were talking also about this and this and this and this. So this wasn't our system, but someone we knew Had dev devised a scribe system. Now people have used scribes, you know, before, and the scribes come into the room with you and sit there quietly like a mouse in the corner and are typing while you're

Celeste Berke [00:09:49]:

talking to him. Stenographer. Right?

Dr. Robert Berke [00:09:52]:

Yes. A little obtrusive, I would say. And also, you know, another person in the room And

Celeste Berke [00:09:57]:

now you wanna talk about the colonoscopy I need? Like, Cannot know.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:10:01]:

Or or I I I am talking about my wife who's in and I'm having a where, you know, and I can't you know? Yeah. So we we developed a system where the scribe isn't in the room. I wear a headset And there's a screen in the room which the patient can see, their note is being done, but also I can and the scribe's sitting at home And it's mirroring her it's an iPad that is mirroring her computer on my screen, Not my computer screen, which is sitting on my desk in the office, and I'm sitting here having a conversation with her just like I'm having one with you, face to face And everything that is being talked about is being data entry.

Celeste Berke [00:10:50]:

The problem for all of you who are in sales and are trying to draw Awesome correlations here. When we talk about a tech product or, like, selling whatever your widget is, it wasn't that the notes weren't getting put in. That's an annoyance, right, to the doctor and also who's ever looking at the chart. The problem that you can't just fix immediately. Right? It's this overarching became customer satisfaction. Right? The potential

Dr. Robert Berke [00:11:13]:

I exactly

Celeste Berke [00:11:14]:

lose patients because they felt like the doctor wasn't engaged with them because the doctor's too busy trying to catch every word. And if you're like my dad, who I told him 20 years ago to learn how to type, and he never did. Like, he pecks on the computer. Right? We're not we're not as as exactly efficient in getting those

Dr. Robert Berke [00:11:33]:

notes. But but I can tell you even today well, first of all, there there's more to this story. But Because it only costs it only the cost of that scribe is 1 and a half patients a day more, which I can Easily see because I'm not sitting there doing this or going back to my office and spending 20 minutes typing in a note that I'm trying to remember or being up half the night trying to type All the notes that I never did, which is a common complaint that doctors have who don't have, you know, don't have this kind of system, They've taken all kinds of work home. I don't take any work home. My notes are done when I leave the office. I go for a run, I go for a bike ride, that's what I do. I mean, hey, Why not? So anyway, it's 1 and a half So

Celeste Berke [00:12:18]:

your quality of life has improved as well.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:12:21]:

There there is the other issue. Quality of life, I've gained quality of life. And if you ask your sister, the doctor, she's part of a 40,000 Female doctor Facebook group. Biggest complaint? Quality of life. Go home, I'm sitting for hours dealing with stuff that I couldn't deal with the office. We figured it out. Plus, the patients love it because I'm sitting there talking to them. I'm spending time quality time with them.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:12:53]:

I it's like they've got a real live person with them And I've got a whiteboard. I can draw them little diagrams, or I can say to my scribe, can you go out on Google and bring me in a picture of a knee? I wanna show I wanna show the patient how this knee works and where the problem is. I mean, it's it's it's like this whole thing. Or can you bring up that, The x-ray or that x-ray report, let's talk Mhmm. It's or your last labs. Look, this cholesterol level, yeah, don't worry about it. It's this you know, it's It's it's and I can order their orders, their x rays, their referrals, their while we're talking, And it's all done. And so we've done 3 things there, made my life much More simple and my quality of life that much better, which is really important.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:13:46]:

We're seeing a lot of doctors screwing off because they just don't want to deal with it anymore. It's It's so cumbersome and and like Yeah. Odious, you don't even wanna do it anymore and a lot of them are just selling out, you know, And then the second thing is it's made the patient's level of satisfaction that much better. And so you and you're more efficient. There it is. Yeah. You solved

Celeste Berke [00:14:11]:

All of it.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:14:12]:

The major the major

Celeste Berke [00:14:14]:

is sitting at home. They have a remote life at home, so You're able to hire other people who also have better quality of life. They're sitting at home, right, with

Dr. Robert Berke [00:14:24]:

Exactly. Don't have to get dressed up. Don't have to die. You know, the cost Clothing, oh, yeah, it's fine. Feed the cat, do whatever, you know, it's it's I've known, but it it there are a number of layers from a business point of view To employee satisfaction, physician satisfaction, patient satisfaction, but the most important Is efficiency. And this that we're doing has really been a quantum leap in efficiency. So remember I talked about We shrunk accounts receivable to 2 to 3 to 4 days. Same day, next day.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:15:05]:

Same day, next day. 30 day, you know, like stuff that's out there 30 days Is the majority of our billing. I mean, that's totally incredible. And we do our own billing because again, it is another business Thing that we learned, you you can, you know, shop out your billing at 7% or whatever it is, there's some cost. Yeah, but they don't care, it's your billing, you know? My people, every penny, every this and they're still same day and they're like you know, they drive you nuts because you haven't you gotta put this in or that, but We have control of it and these are the things you learn and every people we talk, oh, I got it out and I'm unhappy because I, You know claims, you know, they they a claim gets denied which happens frequently. I we know 1 organization, they stick them in a drawer. You know? It's too little, it's $35 or whatever else I say. They got a drawer full of, Well, once you get to the 3rd or 4th drawer full of $35 or $50, you know, it's real money.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:16:16]:

And we go after we have the the flexibility to go after everything that we can get paid and very efficiently. Yeah. We may overdo it. You know? Maybe there's a certain point at which you just gotta walk away from it, but it it's These are and and I this whole just is life experience. You

Celeste Berke [00:16:35]:

know? I've never been in this place. So where I struggle I mean, a lot of my Fellow comrades on sales struggle is whenever you get into organizations, you see problems. You see impacts. You see things that are broken. You talk To reps, you talk to individuals that work in there. Right? They're dissatisfied. They don't have training. They don't have all of this stuff.

Celeste Berke [00:16:57]:

And for me, especially in the industry I came from. I saw it all the time where it's people have arrived at this position. But why do I continue to invest or be innovative, like, when I'm collecting a paycheck, and I think you're a perfect example of and I'd love to hear from you. You're still at a place where you've could have retired 10, 13 ish years ago, and you're still showing up, but you're still driving innovation. Like, you brought in EOS for your business.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:28]:

Right. Right.

Celeste Berke [00:17:30]:

Where where does that come from?

Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:32]:

Oh, that that was one of my partners came across it and thought that one of the things that we lacked, Even though we had all this going on was that it wasn't organized enough in the sense of structured in the way we problem solve. And EOS did, it was fairly expensive, but the training taught us a structured approach to meeting and to Setting goals, rocks as they call them, big goals and then littler goals and whatever else, year rocks, Smaller pebbles or or 3 month and who's responsible, and who takes ownership and has to report. And our meetings at every level, providers, owners, clerical, billing, nurses, they all have their own Meetings, L10s they're called, and it's only an hour and it's very structured And everybody pipes up, you know, and if there's a problem, it's listed, we choose the top 3, go through them, And everybody's got a you know, everybody queues in as to what they think and we come up with solutions. And, yeah, A growing learning organization has to continuously improve and can't just sit there Like what you're describing and collect a paycheck. As soon as you have people just sitting there collecting a paycheck and not actively looking Every time, every day seeing something that they think could be done better. I I can remember One of our people who wasn't computer literate. I mean, like, you know, a lot of our people never had you know, this was a few years ago, suddenly chiming in and saying, well, you know, I Click this thing and and suddenly I saw you could do this. Yeah.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:19:30]:

But this was what was happening early on. We, you know, we had this tool, but It had all the bells and whistles which no one knew how to and someone would hit a button and, oh my god, you can do this. And recently, we were all complaining about Because we're the bottom of the funnel being family practice, and in most parts now in the United States, There are regional they're called RIOS, regional health information organizations, where you can get all the data you want on wherever you go. You know if you were to go to Denver, some small community hospital in Denver, somewhere else, a clinic, all that information comes back to your primary care doctor. Wait. Can you imagine the amount of stuff that comes in every day? And someone said, well, you know, a lot of this stuff we don't even have to do. It's the patient's in hospital, all these are the in hospital labs. You don't need to look at them.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:20:23]:

But we're all complaining, we have hundreds of these. And he says, well, you know, if you do this, you can collect them all and just close them. I and none of us know how to do that and this, You know, again, it's just again, people just not being afraid to touch a button here or to and find some new way to do something that everybody benefits from. Saves you 10 clicks. Saves you this. Saves you that. I mean, it's all and it's all just goes on and on.

Celeste Berke [00:20:49]:

You've built an organization that isn't just like the lumpen pro proletariat. Right? Who are just it's like everybody has buy in because everybody knows, Like, your mission, your vision, the problems that you're solving, basically, that you're out there to do no harm and also to do good in the Community, right, that stems from how you first started the practice as a very community focused

Dr. Robert Berke [00:21:16]:

Mhmm. They they it's getting hard right now it's getting very hard because of, staffing. I mean, all the bigger institutions are Starving for staff so they're offering a these huge bonuses, you know, that that we can't compete with. All we can compete with is the fact that we have a group, A core group of x number of employees who carry enough to show up every day because they enjoy being there, and they're part of An organization that cares about them and and also wants to hear from them on, you know, what they think about Improving Right. How we do our work.

Celeste Berke [00:21:53]:

They're not just improving

Dr. Robert Berke [00:21:54]:

their work. Yeah. And that's about all you can do. It's it's really hard Staffing wise, you know, everybody's complaining, but everybody's complaining everywhere about it. A, the younger staff Don't seem to have the same stick to it ness that the older timers have, you know, who just understand that you show up every day and you do your work and you You're part of something that's actually quite enjoyable. Younger ones I mean it's really every industry is complaining about Finding people who, you know, won't jump for a dollar more an hour somewhere else. Right. You know, not realizing that, Yeah.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:22:34]:

You're gonna be asked to do more things and to maybe, you know, whatever else. And anyway.

Celeste Berke [00:22:42]:

Yeah. So I wanna talk briefly before we close our to close this out. I wrote an article. I actually I should send it to you. Last week when I was pacing at night, you know, it was 9, 10 o'clock at night. I hadn't written my weekly newsletter. And then I thought, like, let me channel my dad. What would he tell me? When times are tough, when so we're seeing really low quota attainment from reps out there.

Celeste Berke [00:23:08]:

Company is not making their numbers, right, year end projections not being great. And, also, If you're not closing deals, that's tough on your mindset. It's also difficult because sometimes you have 1 shot. Right? You have 1 call, and if you flub the call, you don't get a do over. And so my article about the advice that you give me before you go into anything. Right? A speaking engagement, a webinar, right to stand there and piss ice water.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:23:41]:

And I Exactly.

Celeste Berke [00:23:43]:

And I wanna hear about a tough if you have to look back on your life, the toughest, most Challenging moment that you've had. Tell us that story because I'm assuming you took a step back to piss ice water before.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:23:59]:

Well, first of all, that that came from I was playing football in college and it was my I was the 2nd stringer on the varsity team in college, and before our 1st game Thursday night, I came to practice and the coach pulled me aside. He was an old pro, you know, who I played and he pulled me aside and said, son, you're on Saturday, the guy ahead of you, Linebacker. I blew his knee out last night in practice. So you know what you have to do, we've talked about all the cues you see when things happen, But you have to when the play starts, do nothing but stand there and piss ice water. And I looked at him like, what's he talking about? And he said, stand there and take a moment to look at what's going on and you'll know exactly what to do. If you don't take that moment, You're just gonna do something and it may not be the right it may be the right thing, it may not be, and you can avoid that by just Taking it taking that one second. And that's been for my whole life, that's been, like, really important In the operating room, in the delivery room, in life in general, just nothing happens that fast. You know, it it does, but if you listen to the and I'm gonna use a sports analogy here.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:25:22]:

The guys talking in a game watching a pro game and they're talking about Wayne Gretzky in hockey or Tom Brady or, You know or or Michael Jordan. For them, when it starts, everything slows down for them. They see the field. They see they they just see in almost in slow motion What has to be done? Well, everybody else is just, you know, they have that ability and everybody has that ability if you take the, If you learn that one thing, which is just take a breath and then do what you have to do. So I'm sitting there one day in the delivery room and this lady and I are having a, you know, chat, she's a ski instructor and she's pushing out her 1st baby, and Yeah. We're happy and we're just talking, you know, and she pushes out this baby, beautiful baby, and then I'm waiting and she delivers her placenta along with the uterus attached to Which is not a good thing. No, that's called a, you know, a a cuvalier uterus, the uterus comes out Inside out at you. And it's really not good because it means the placenta's stuck on and you there's a lot of bad things happening.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:26:35]:

And I'm just sitting there and I I kind of take a moment, I say to the nurse, call down to the OR, you know, call me another doctor, I need someone to look after the baby. And then we take her down to the OR and, you know, I I I have a surgeon come in because this is requires a little procedure which I was, I mean, I've never seen this before, though I know exactly what it is. And afterwards, the nurse says to me, You are so calm, like, why why is you know, like how could you just sit there? And I'm my heart's going about 200, you know, but I'm sitting there, you know, And the woman says to me afterwards, you know, I knew there was something wrong because you stopped telling me jokes, you know, but otherwise, you know, But you have to kind of stand there and piss ice water sometimes and just do what you have to do once you see what you have to do. Anyway

Celeste Berke [00:27:26]:

And you did the same thing a couple of years ago with the guy at the gym whose whose heart

Dr. Robert Berke [00:27:31]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I I teach spin class, And this guy I know is in spin, and he comes in, you know, he's not spinning with us, but he was swimming. He comes in, and this guy Sits on a bike and, you know, we don't care, and he spins and then he leaves. And then the class ends and everybody leaves, and I stopped for a minute to use the little bathroom because there was an old school room. And I walked down the hall and I see he's sitting on the couch but he's kinda and I figure he's joking and I walk over and I realize he's Had a cardiac arrest and I give him a thump on the chest which does nothing, it's an old fashioned kind of, And then I go scuttling down the hall in my in my bike shoes, run into the, you know, the and I say to the person at the desk, I need the AED.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:28:16]:

I need you to call 911, then I kick open the door to the the locker room, and I say I need some help. Who comes out but another doctor and a minister? I figured I got the guy covered either way here. We go down, you know, CPR, shock him 5 times, the guy's still alive. Again, you have to just, you know but Difficult times? Yeah. I remember the most difficult time in my life, I'm talking medically, Was as a public health officer in 1997. We had an HIV spreader in our community, And we had been looking at the case for a while, figured out who this guy was, And we figured it out because one of my folks had interviewed him in jail and about 6 months earlier and he said, I don't give an f what you You're telling me about me being HIV positive. Well, I'll go out and do whatever I want, and she had put it in her notes somewhere. And after about six Cases that we came across that young girls who were HIV positive, she came to me and said, I think it's this guy, And we had another 6 cases come in and we had to Ultimately expose him publicly because the local superior court judge said you've gotta do this.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:29:41]:

This guy's a danger. And there was a a I was talking to the state health department on Friday night, October 24th, 1997 at 5 o'clock in the afternoon with someone from the CDC and I'm sitting in my office and they're giving me this, Well, you know, you could, you know, just whatever. We can't help you very much on this, and it sounded Someone sawing the limb, the branch that I was on a little closer to the trunk, you know, like, I could hear the and it was a very lonely kinda weekend. You know, I remember taking Your brother John to a football game. The John Elway and the Broncos were there, and I'm sitting in this at the Bills Stadium with 80,000 people. And I knew Monday morning we were gonna have a press conference and announce this, and it was the loneliest place I've ever been in my life With 80,000 people with me knowing, like, what I knew about what we were gonna do. And Monday morning, 10 o'clock in the morning, We have a room our our our meeting room is full of, people from, you know, Erie, you know, And local news people and I kind of do the announcement that, you know, this is the guy. We had a poster of him and everything else, and We didn't know where he was, and we had, you know, we had a problem.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:31:04]:

I walked out and the, guy from Erie who I knew, you know, he's a stringer for the new Erie News said to me, doc, you don't know how big a story this is, and I said, yeah, you know, we're we're just doing it. Well, by 2 in the afternoon, Dan Rather's person was sitting across, or Raheema Ellis was sitting across me grilling me as to, you know, What did I know about who it was? And by that time, I did know who it was and I knew where he was. He was he had already been imprisoned in Rikers Island for something else, A drive by shooting or something crazy, you know? And so we had him, but I couldn't divulge that. But, oh, boy, that was like 2 weeks of absolute craziness. Oh, god. Was that that was just That was tough. That was tough.

Celeste Berke [00:31:51]:

Yeah. I remember seeing you on TV. I was a freshman in college watching for my

Dr. Robert Berke [00:31:56]:

I remember my my friend from Australia sending me a note saying he saw me on TV as well. I mean, it was that crazy. It was that big a story. And it went on for

Celeste Berke [00:32:06]:

Yes. The special victims unit. Law and Order special victims unit was episode

Dr. Robert Berke [00:32:11]:

And about it. Well, they and the big trucks With the the, you know, the the antennae were outside for 10 days, and suddenly they were gone because the nanny gate story broke in off Long I or off in Boston somewhere. And we were

Celeste Berke [00:32:25]:

Done.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:32:25]:

Suddenly no one was around. It was done. And and, yeah, it's like that, you know? It's like, you know, have you heard anything about Ukraine lately? No. Because it's all Gaza now. You know, if they just do this, the story moves but but those are oh, that would And the Friday night where I was my partner had called me up and said, could you come over and Chat with me. So I went and I stopped at his house, and he said, I'm thinking of leaving the practice. It's just too busy for me. You know? Like, he could've waited, you know, a day or 2.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:32:57]:

Like, he knew what was So this is I came home and I told my wife, and my wife said, well, what's the third thing that happened? Like, happened in threes, you know, like but anyway, we that was tough. That that was and then I was by myself

Celeste Berke [00:33:10]:

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:33:11]:

Because he left and the other guy I had hired Left pretty soon and so I was by myself. Yeah. And then then thing but things turned around and things now we have 4 offices, 100 employees, 17,000 patients have merged once with a a hospital practice. And here's this business story if you want a business story in medicine. We looked at this hospital practice. Hospitals don't run family practice very well. They they run hospitals. And so they were losing $800,000 a year Because no show rate was 30%, and they were paying all his staff and, you know, it was just not good.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:33:51]:

And so we went and said, we will take it over for you. You'll lose the total cost. The revenues don't matter because you're losing $800,000 a year. You will net Not lose $800,000 a year, and you'll continue to get all well, it was even better than that because it was a hospital run practice. They're a special category. Labs are part of the fee they get. Well, you know, so you order x rays, labs, they they don't get anything for it. Now we own the practice, they get all the labs And the x rays, and it's all additional charges they can do, plus we were sending all our labs to an outside lab, and we said we'll send you all our labs, Which was couple of $1,000,000 worth of laboratory business.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:34:39]:

So they ended up not losing $800,000, getting Our labs getting the extra reimbursement, you know, and the headache was gone. And we doubled our practice overnight, Which was a bit crazy and was a lot of work and was but in and they were using a a computer and they were using another software which was just Garbage. It was awful. And so we merged that into ours, and all those patients to ours, and it was just a A win win for everybody, and so it doubled the size of our practice. And it it was, you know, a lot of, work, but Fascinating. You know? Fascinating business deal. And I knew immediately looking at what at how what they were doing that the deal was The best for both of us, you know?

Celeste Berke [00:35:32]:

So as you move on into a new phase of your life, No Ironman training. You've written your stories to books out there that you've self published.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:35:45]:

3.

Celeste Berke [00:35:46]:

3? 3.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:35:47]:

Yes. I did. Poor poor lost mom. Oh. Your your niece's lost, doll in the park. Yes. I just did that.

Celeste Berke [00:35:54]:

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen

Dr. Robert Berke [00:35:56]:

Your your daughter will get one at Christmas time. I have Okay. Okay. For her.

Celeste Berke [00:36:00]:

What advice do you have 2 salespeople or people like myself. Right? Mid career. Days are tough. The dip seems to sometimes keep going down.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:36:11]:

Mhmm.

Celeste Berke [00:36:13]:

Before it inches up slowly.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:36:17]:

Well, first of all, don't try to sell people what They don't want. You've gotta look at where their where where the hurt point is. This last story, I knew what the hurt point was, and Give them a a a way to solve that because solving that for them is Probably what's stuck in their crawl. And they either are just avoiding it or, you know, just ignoring it or whatever else or they can't figure out a way Out of it. Telling them that they're gonna earn more money or this or that or whatever else. EOS, you know, they told us we were gonna improve our income by so much. The issue wasn't that for us. The issue for us was better organization, better better ways to to look at our problems and deal with them, you an organized fashion.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:37:08]:

Well, same thing. Sometimes, you know, telling people this is the best thing since sliced bread isn't what They need what they need is maybe to solve a problem that they're just that they don't even recognize or that they've recognized but just can't deal with. And and and it may improve things other than the bottom line, but it may improve their They're they're they're much like the little headset, you know, a lot of different things. My my my my ability to go out and ride my bike, You know, patient getting a person looking at them. I had a long conversation the other night with a doc who I was talking to about scribes. He does not use 1, But he says, yeah. You know what? You're right because I have to go back to my office and I have to do my notes, Yeah. Like, again.

Celeste Berke [00:37:56]:

This is a whole new business center for you.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:37:59]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know.

Celeste Berke [00:38:02]:

Add it to the list. Add it to the list. Yeah. Of course. Alright. So we're gonna stand and piss ice water. Look for the problems.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:38:12]:

Right. And look for the efficiencies more than because the efficiencies will then translate into financial, you know, improvement. But Don't immediately go when you're selling to what they're gonna you know, how much more they're gonna make, you know. Oh, it's just gonna you're gonna make 10% more, or you're gonna do this or do that. They hear this all the time. What you really want to do for them is give them sometimes intangibles, and sometimes Solve a problem that you see in their system that they don't fully appreciate. And

Celeste Berke [00:38:52]:

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:38:52]:

It's,

Celeste Berke [00:38:53]:

Totally. I'm I'm with you there. Alright. So if you tuned into the 1st episode, You heard about my dad's time in Africa. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to tell the listeners oh,

Dr. Robert Berke [00:39:07]:

One Okay. It's empty.

Celeste Berke [00:39:10]:

Of your most favorite memories from Africa. Like, something that we wouldn't Think of today that you got to see us.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:39:20]:

This is a funny story. You know? First of all, I'm fluent in pidgin English, which is what I had to use when I was there. It's the because Cameroon has 400 different languages, they all speak pidgin which is a It's a lingua franca, the pidgin in West Africa is English based, but it has a lot of words mixed in, you know, and so I'm having A party at my house for my midwives. I would bring them in and they would have a a 2 day, you know, seminar in our, you know, in our office, and then I don't have to come to my house.

Celeste Berke [00:39:55]:

Lived, just so people understood, like, you lived in the city, but then you would Travel

Dr. Robert Berke [00:39:59]:

Well, a city a city. I lived in a city of 40,000, which means 30,000 kids and 10,000 adults.

Celeste Berke [00:40:07]:

But you would then travel out to the bush part

Dr. Robert Berke [00:40:10]:

Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. I had 27 I had 27 health centers that were out 45 kilometers by dirt road here or there. And so once a year we would bring them in, the midwives in, because they were out there in the, you know, outpost, A cement block, nicely built buildings, but, you know, bring them in and give them some education and, you know, also just give them a chance to share a little bit with each other. And then I would have them to my house, mine, we would cook a meal for them, you know, so there were 15 or 20 of them at a time. We would, you know, my cook my my cook, John, would cook meal for them, and they would all eat before they got there because they all knew that, You know, food in my house. I wasn't gonna fill them up. It's very funny.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:40:53]:

But anyway and we would talk a little bit and and then I remember I was playing some music for them on this battery run Phillips record player, and I had all these records, you know, Freedom's Clearwater Revival, all these, you know, old 70 eights, you know, whatever else, Lyle piece, you know. And one of the midwives said to me, doctor, how do they gum that gum Glue, yeah, in pigeon gum. How do they gum that sound to that disc? Fascinating. Fascinating. And I'm looking at this, and I'm thinking, how do they do that? You know? It it's a a very sophisticated process, And here we are, you know, just you know? And and she's asking me how they glue that sound on, which was, like, fascinating. You know? And then I had a phone in my house and I could the phones, very, very rudimentary. If you're lucky, you could get a line out somewhere, but it was hard because there's only a couple of lines in the whole town. And I remember one of my midwives asking me, You know, about phones in Canada, and I said, I can dial 10 numbers, talk to anybody in the world, basically.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:42:15]:

And she looked at me, and she says, white men, you own too much. Meaning, like, you people are, like, from Mars. You know? And and that was now, of course, in Africa. Everybody's got a cell phone and everything else. This was in 1971, you know, or 72, you know? It was a long time ago, but, like, we didn't realize, You know, like, just yeah. I said, you know, those are memories. You know? I have many others, but that that is fascinating. Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:42:44]:

Mhmm. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. It's for those listening, you know, an unlikely we We often don't think about medicine and how that translates to sales, and there's a lot of parallels with talking to patients about their problems I'm rooting through that and trying to figure out, okay. What's the root cause and what do I what's really important that has to be addressed here? You address it all in one setting? Do you are you able to? Do you have to send them out someplace else? And we face that, but we often forget There's this human side to just life and the greater good and doing things to help other people just because we're

Dr. Robert Berke [00:43:26]:

Right. Right. And and it's hard and the hardest thing sometimes is leaving you leaving it all at the office, you know, And coming home and just, you know, not I mean, that's sometimes very difficult, especially when you've had a day where you've Dealt with some very difficult things in people who've had some serious issues. You know, it it's you have to learn To to just it's you can't take it with you. It's, you know, it's not your problem in a sense. You're you're there to help, but You can't it'll lead you up. You know? And it's it's hard. It's hard.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:03]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:44:04]:

Well, I appreciate your time. Individuals can Follow you on LinkedIn, but hopefully soon more stories coming if you launch podcast or you write another book or who knows what you're doing, consulting work, helping practices.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:19]:

Oh, I have. I've talked to you already. I have, I I'm Interest I've got stories, you know?

Celeste Berke [00:44:26]:

Yes. And you're a great storyteller as well, so

Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:29]:

I Well, I've got Stories you know, one of the books that I wrote was Tales My Patients Told Me, and it it you can't believe some of the stories people have, You know?

Celeste Berke [00:44:39]:

Right. But you take the time you take the time to listen.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:43]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating.

Celeste Berke [00:44:45]:

Is awesome, which is why you're, like, the mayor of where where I go

Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:49]:

No. I'm not. I'm no. Not at all.

Celeste Berke [00:44:51]:

I mean, everybody knows you. We're when you go places, you're Well

Dr. Robert Berke [00:44:55]:

And I've delivered 1200 of them, so, yeah, usually that ties you into a fairly large number of them in a small town. You know? Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:45:03]:

Definitely. Well, thank you all for tuning in to this edition. Appreciate you sharing your time with me, dad. Always love chatting with you because we don't live close to one another. Thank you listeners. Stay tuned for next week's episode.

Celeste Berke [00:00:01]:

Hello. Hello. We are here on the Sales Edge Podcast. This is Celeste, your host, and I am here with someone who, when you all listen to this, may think, what the heck does this have to do with sales? But I am about to dive in, and our guest today. We will draw some parallels into sales. It is none other than my father, Robert Berke. So I'm sure I will miss a couple of things, and he can fill us in here in a moment. But he is a just celebrated 41 years in business as a small business owner owner well into the 7, maybe eight figure business.

Celeste Berke [00:00:43]:

So he can talk to us about that. Has an MD, an MBA an MD from McGill, MPH from Harvard, an MBA from some some other place. It'll come to me. As well as a host of other accolades, including being an acupuncturist, has attempted 6 Ironman in the last 18 years, and completed 2. Whole another episode we can devote just to Ironman. But this is my dad, father of 4, still working almost full time as well as teaching spin class as well as other things. So we will get into it. Lived in Africa for 3 years, and worked for the Canadian government.

Celeste Berke [00:01:24]:

It goes on and on. What did I miss?

Dr. Robert Berke [00:01:28]:

25 years as a county health commissioner here in the county, went through some rather interesting events there. Yeah. There's a lot a lot a lot packed in there that could be unpacked over a long period of time. One of the things, you know, when you talk about business, they don't train doctors very well in because we our training is, you know, there's a whole lot of other things going on, and I think very little time is spent, and was spent when I was going through it. None was spent talking about the year gonna go out and, run a practice which is actually a business. You think you're just going out and treating people, you know, and you get paid and that's that's not the way it works. You have staff, you have a a facility, you have supplies, you have All kinds of things. Unfortunately in the United States you have this absolutely crazy billing system with multiple payers and all their Rules and regulations.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:02:26]:

It's really a a very complex business. In Canada it was a lot easier, one payer, and actually, you know, that was pretty simple. But even then it was a business and so when I kind of started out I didn't have much business experience. Fortunately, I didn't have to. I went to Africa and I was working for the Canadian government as a public health officer Running a very large operation which I had no experience in and had to learn on my feet. And basically after The person I was replacing left with giving me a little hands on experience, there were a lot of stuff to learn. And what I I found was Which was just something that I found out that I was kind of an adaptive entrepreneur. I I I kinda started figuring out and seeing things that weren't working well in the business we were in which host, providing public health to a 1000000 people with a budget of a dollar per person per year.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:03:25]:

And you have to figure out how to use that, which is business, mode so that you got the best bang for your buck, which is business in a sense. One of the most interesting things was I was The chief of service for one of the provinces of Cameroon, the northwest province, and I would go to these meetings and listen to the other chiefs of service talking about how they weren't getting anything done because their vehicles were always broken down. And it's very interesting because we had a hodgepodge of vehicles, Some gifts from the Canadian government, some from, UNICEF. They're all different. 3 Land Rovers, 2 Volkswagen buses, Renault Jeep, but, you know, whatever. And And I immediately realized our life blood was these vehicles because we had a huge territory and a lot of our work was going out on dirt roads. 45 clicks are 45 kilometers, you know, to a health center for our staff to run an immunization clinic, whatever it was. And I realized listening to these stories and knowing what kind of brutal conditions were there were for the roads and and on these vehicles, that We had to do something different and we had 2 drivers who were mechanics and I thought, you know, we got 2 mechanics.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:04:42]:

Why don't we just dig a hole and rather than we had no lift, so we dug a a pit And rolled the vehicle, you know, got a little built a little kind of affair that protected the, you know, just a tin roof and I drive in over the pit And we changed our oil, rotated our tires. Never we lost 15 minutes of of we had 15 minutes of downtime in 3 years on our vehicles because vehicle maintenance. I never owned I hadn't owned a vehicle to that point, but I realized That could. It's in Montreal. Walked to work, and I didn't need a vehicle. But I realized that that was our lifeblood. And if we didn't have that, we would be like the other characters I was dealing with at those meetings who had said and complained about the fact that they didn't have anything. Anyway, and then you know you start to look and then we were running.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:05:31]:

My my predecessor had started small dispensaries in our health centers because people couldn't afford medication home. And the local pharmacies. It was impossible. No one could afford it. So I looked at it and said, but we've got 27 of these these maternities and delivering babies and seeing kids and 2 dispensaries. Why don't we open our own pharmacy, so to speak, and have them in every one? So we over 2 years did that and We did it on a cost plus basis so that we just earned enough per malaria medication or whatever it was To pay for us getting more. We weren't trying to run a profit. We were just trying to cover our transportation costs.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:06:14]:

So the price was like very affordable for people. And we were and it was so it was so affordable that actually I had one of the The missionary doctors at a local hospital who used to make their money on selling them tell me that I was ruining his business, you know, because we we were doing this and we were getting what we needed to our, you know, our residents out there at a very, very low cost. And it was a very complex business because we were Supplying pharmaceuticals. Now, my dad was a pharmacist but it didn't help me at all. I mean, this was a totally different operation. Made some mistakes, Had a guy stealing, you know, you have all kinds of things going on there. But in general, when I left, the World Health Organization copied that for a province in Nigeria and one of the guys who had been working with me was involved with them. And he had this novel idea of just low cost, Low profit margin.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:12]:

Just, you know again, just figuring it out how how to do it. So when I came

Celeste Berke [00:07:18]:

Well, this adaptive entrepreneurship. Right? So you're in this place. You're 23?

Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:26]:

No. I was, like, 25, 26, 27 maybe.

Celeste Berke [00:07:29]:

Yeah. 26, 27 years old, having learned

Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:32]:

Never run a business in my life. Never, home You know, like, I I worked summers, you know, teaching swimming at a summer camp or, you know, whatever. I I

Celeste Berke [00:07:40]:

never Right.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:07:41]:

You know?

Celeste Berke [00:07:41]:

But you also deal with what a lot of us deal with in sales, which product aside, right, whatever the Canadian government's intentions were, you run up against the buyer, we'll say, the individuals with Mhmm. Who live there. Right? The people of Cameroon, who this is how they've done it for however long. They've got the goiters and all of the worms in their eyes, all of these issues. Why make a change? So talk to us about because there's this whole, like, change management process or change influence. How were you able to come in and say, we wanna partner with you and make all these changes because of x y z.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:08:24]:

Oh well, I I I had the good fortune of having a very large staff of local folks who knew the local arrangement and we weren't, You know, we weren't doing brain surgery, we were just making sure that babies got delivered safely in our, home. We have maternities in 27 little communities, and we wanted to make sure babies got and women want to have a home delivery. That wasn't a big sell. Okay?

Celeste Berke [00:08:53]:

Well, I'm assuming was there a high, infant mortality rate?

Dr. Robert Berke [00:08:57]:

Mortality rate? Of course. Those countries have very high infant mortality rates Because of death in the 1st year of life, which is all of the story which we'll get to. But basically, there was another issue. You, when you had your your little girl, you know, went into labor and drove to the hospital and, you know, had a baby, you know, after a little while. Well, a lot of these women are walking 15 or 20 miles from outlying communities which this health center that we had served. The midwives were excellent. They were all trained and could deliver, they delivered a lot of babies, but you're having women. So we decided, you know, this is not a great idea.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:09:37]:

Why don't we build some rudimentary structures near the health host. Where the women could come maybe a couple of days before we ex you know, they think they're due and they would they would be very close to what they lived in, You know, in their villages and we wouldn't have babies being born on the the way in and we wouldn't have babies being born in. And so all of our health centers built the we had health committees who built these, you know, very rudimentary structures where women could come early and have a bed, And also cook and then wait and then go into the maternity, have a safe delivery, and then go home. And again, just Yeah. Figuring out what, you know, the simple things you need to do to get a better outcome in a situation where for years, it was, you know, it was what it was. We had the maternity there, they were all clean, they were all you could smell the disinfectant, I mean it was, We made sure and those, you know, it was amazing how very, very proper those places were, much different than What these women delivered in in their villages, but that wasn't the problem. The problem was They had to get there and so we figured and there was no transportation. They're walking on paths, you know, through, high grassland because we lived in a high grassland area, Savannah.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:11:01]:

But still, they're walking, you know, who knows how how far. And so that was another issue. Then of course, there's the issue of their kids. No one wants their kids to die. Convincing them to get an immunization was not difficult. Getting them to have an immunization, you know, so we had to figure out ways to to get the immunizations out to them and it was all just, You know, you're talking about what I do now and what was done there on the sell. I'm telling you, selling someone now To get a COVID vaccine is a lot more difficult than talking to one of those folks in Cameroon to get their kids vaccinated so they don't die of measles or whooping cough or polio or whatever else. They were dying of tetanus, whatever else, and I've seen it all.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:11:51]:

You know, rabies, all these things.

Celeste Berke [00:11:54]:

And, Cameron, you probably had so as sellers and and you have this yourself. We've talked about it, right, on on your buying committee. It's yourself, the, you know, the owner, the partners, sometimes the practice manager. Right leg decisions are no longer made by 1. It's usually a committee committee decision. Whereas in Cameroon, probably the influence of, I'm assuming, those vaccinations vaccinations, and changing that outcome is getting an evangelist. Right? Someone who truly understands, also speaks the language, knows the culture, who's then infiltrating these small pockets to really become this evangelist of, hey, everybody. Let's get on board to do this, and then you get another evangelist and another and another and

Dr. Robert Berke [00:12:39]:

home We got around that by creating health committees in each. And you're finding some locals in each community village who were interested in, you know, improving things and which meant water supplies meant latrines meant, you know, all kinds of things. And they were instrumental in putting the message out, but it was my job as the, you know, The the big kahuna, so to speak, to go, you know, walk come in there and I walked into some of those places a couple of times a year, you know, and I would visit all my health centers on a monthly basis just to meet with the health committees to try and give them Very rudimentary understanding of why these things were being done, why, you know, you You know, there is a very interesting expression in in English, which I won't get to, but you don't crap where you eat. You know? Well, there it was Yep. You've gotta deal with human waste because it contaminates the water which creates the diarrheal disease which kills your kid before they're 1 year old. And so we had a huge process of these committees digging community latrines, you know, incredible. You know, 20 feet deep, 3 feet wide, 6 feet long, covered over, dot dot, you know, the whole I mean, little Yeah. You know? These were Yeah.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:14:04]:

Very simple.

Celeste Berke [00:14:05]:

We talk about it a lot in the sense of, right, there's there's a business problem. So in this sense, off the top of my head, it's like health in safety. It's like you you can't fix it immediately. Right? It's a Mhmm. Epidemic. It is the health and safety of a community, and then you have the impacts. Right. The death.

Celeste Berke [00:14:21]:

You have the the numbers, right, the impacts to the family, what's happening. But then you also have this root cause, which is what? Your your team was working in all of these 3 buckets. Right? But as salespeople, all we are is, like, well, if we can just come in and Fix This One Thing. It's going to fix everything else. Well, it yes. Fixing the water supply, but also then you've got, you know, the immunizations and all that, like, all come together in order to fix this big problem.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:14:46]:

Of course. But, you know, I see in my, In my work now, I see a lot of physicians who travel overseas to those places and Work for 3 weeks in some hospital fixing hernias or doing this or doing that. The reality is they They feel good when they come home. Okay? And they've helped 20 people, you know. When you look at the problem when I was there, and we'll get away from this Because I'm just using it as an example of how I approach things. You're looking at massive problems that have very simple solutions That require, understanding the root problem and getting at it. Sure. Fixing someone's goiter is marvelous, you know, for that 1 person.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:15:40]:

Fixing the water supply for a village or a community Is is is incredibly, impactful. And I can tell you that our little hospital was empty when I left of cases of whooping cough and measles and polio and everything because we Had a very simple solution, get to the people who needed what they needed and get what we and it was it was but again, it was a business solution at looking at what we needed to do to get to the root cause of what was going on and what was the real problem. The the, most obvious problems you could fix, but you would fix them 1 at a time. The root problems, you could make a huge difference in the life of that community or from a business sense in in how, the outcomes looked. And so That was a tremendous lesson for me because when I came back to the United States, I went to, you know, the school of public health for a year, but then I went into private practice Which is business and my partner and I had to run a business. We had to buy I have a facility. We bought 2 actually and ran 2 practice, had to employ staff. And, oh, there's a learning process there and The mistakes you make and the things you learn and fascinating.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:03]:

Fascinating.

Celeste Berke [00:17:04]:

So you went quick story. You were living in Canada, 80 acre farm, doctor by day, farmer by night and weekends, started your family, moved to the States

Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:20]:

Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:17:20]:

40

Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:21]:

years ago. Quebec was trying to separate and my partner left and home. Left me with the whole practice and 2 2 offices and whatever else, it wasn't gonna happen and so we basically, At the time, if you were selling, you were selling into a buyer's market, not a seller's market, and we left with almost nothing. You know, 3 kids, 1 6 6 week old, you and your sister who are 5 4 5 or something like that. I

Celeste Berke [00:17:48]:

was 2. I was 2.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:51]:

82. You were born in 79. You were 3.

Celeste Berke [00:17:53]:

3.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:17:54]:

Almost 3. Okay. It didn't matter. You were 2 going on 15 anyway at the time, if I remember correctly. But I came here and I had a job. I I I I was to be the, health commissioner for the county. So I had a salary, but I wanted to open a a private practice. But again, had to start all over again with, you know, No way in in in we we had not much money coming here because we'd given everything away just for to cover the costs of or the mortgage or what was left and it came with, yeah, $10,000 or something like that.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:18:28]:

Anyway, but we didn't owe anything and I just started up. But it was 5 years working all by myself, delivering a 100 babies a year, working, you know, 7 days a week. No. It wasn't all 7 days a week. I still got out and ran, and I still had all my kids went to their games and did everything, but still It was I I was busy, but I I built a small business, took on a partner for another 5 years or 10 years, I Forget. And then he left, took on another partner, then then we were in business. Then we decided we're we're gonna expand because

Celeste Berke [00:19:06]:

Hold on one second. Because I always ask the guest, and, we haven't gotten into that yet. This is a different, a little bit of a different episode. It's not a not a short. This is gonna be a 2 parter. So I wanna talk about the first hushing in in this because I think it goes into what you just said. So those 1st 5 years and something I've always admired about you and you and I talk about it. Definitely a couple times a week is this concept of your mindset and where to focus and, like, how to stay in your swim lane.

Celeste Berke [00:19:40]:

So talk to me about, a, where you learned this practice of betting on yourself, but also this, like, edge, your sales edge of, like, having this mindset that is, for the most part, like, unshakable. Coming here and there right around Ironman time. It gets a little dicey, but

Dr. Robert Berke [00:20:00]:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well, there are a couple of things. One is I was very fortunate in in one sense. I started practicing medicine in Canada And that that was very unfortunate experience because I can remember, and this is one of those seminal memories I remember, I walked out in my waiting room in this office in Knowlton, Quebec. And sitting in the waiting room was were 2 women side by side chatting, you know. 1 worked at the local Clairol plant earning $7.50 an hour, house.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:20:39]:

And when was the wife of the CEO of Bombardier, you know, Ski Doo Snowmobile. They make airplanes. They make subway cars. They they make things that Make them very wealthy. And they owned a very, very, very, very nice place just outside of town. But they both had a little blue card in their hand, which was their ticket to get in to see me. And that was it. I had no need to as to who is paying me whatever else.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:21:07]:

There was a single payer source. So when I moved here, I had no concept of that. And so when I started, I would see everybody. And a lot of the docs wouldn't see the Medicaid, you know, the ones that and I remember I delivered, oh, I don't know how many babies Where we were getting paid, you know, very little to for the no one would touch them. But from my background was you That's not what you do with people. Well, the world has a funny way of coming back to to look after you because at a certain point, Suddenly the reimbursement per delivery went from $2.50 to $1600 a delivery. It was nothing that I had banked on or thought about. I was just doing what I was doing and suddenly those people who I had Given service to who knew that they were being told that they, you know, they weren't good enough to go somewhere else or whatever else, We're my patients.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:22:08]:

And I had built a very large, you know, practice, you know, fine, I mean, I I don't remember what I was earning, it didn't matter. We never you never missed a meal. You never went for, you know, missing for anything. And maybe our vacations house. Shorter and then we didn't go yeah. But but we anyway.

Celeste Berke [00:22:27]:

No. I mean, we lived modestly.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:22:30]:

Yes. But but That's the way it was. But basically I had built this rather large practice and I think the reputation also was we saw everybody I looked after everybody. And the moral compass, you know, drove the whole thing. And the hard work, you know, I get called at 2 the morning to go deliver a baby, and I was gonna get paid peanuts for. It didn't matter. That was my job, and that's what I did. And and the patients really appreciated it, and that was the service I was offering.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:22:58]:

And I did it with a smile, and it was, you know, it was just one of those things. And they're still my patients now many years later, and the kids are my patients.

Celeste Berke [00:23:06]:

And But you have the lesson of this, like, mindset of even when it's tough. Right? Not missing workouts. Even still, 5th 50 years later, how where does that stem from of not letting the Don't know. The outside forces infiltrate here.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:23:26]:

Don't know. I don't know. It just there were there were a couple of things that that drove part of it. And I I I've always liked exercise. You know, I was a college athlete and afterwards I ran and, you know, I ran 5 marathons. I skied, you know, ski marathon. I mean, I just I like the I wasn't fast. I wasn't winning in my age group.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:23:48]:

I just was out there doing it because it was healthy. And the other thing was I knew that if I walked into the office weighing 300 pounds smelling a cigarette smoke and tried to talk to someone about not smoking and, you know, staying healthy, it doesn't work. And so I I always knew you had to live, You know the story if you were going to do it and going to teach it and not For any other reason, but that's the example you have to set when you're in this business. That was just my mindset. Now, Am I a little bit nutso about exercise? I don't I don't think so. I just like what how I feel when I exercise every day. First of all, It's fairly stressful listening to 20 or 30 people in a day unload on you, you know, about, you know, whatever they've got. Some of them just for coming in for a physical but some with some significant issues including having to tell them they've got a serious illness or that they need some interventions or they need to change their lifestyle.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:24:56]:

And I've always found that having a bit of exercise Usually early in the day if you were can remember me at the year making the peanut butter sandwiches when you guys woke up and I had already run 6 miles, it was because, a, that was the only time of day when I knew I had some time, and b, it set me up for the rest of the day to be, It took a little edge off. You know? I I was I had a little endorphin buzz. I felt a little more relaxed people. I didn't get as irritable as you can get when you're tired and, you know, and sometimes I I Come home after delivering a baby at 3 in the morning and know that I was gonna be up in an hour and a half or 2 hours so I go for a run. And by 6 or 7 at night, it was a long day, but still, I sometimes have to get up that night and do it again. But There's a certain discipline in in in my life, which is getting some exercise every day. I swim today, by the way. My group, you know? You know, I I'm just saying, it's like it's

Celeste Berke [00:25:58]:

just 1 moment. Years old. We're still exercising on the daily. Although you're you're coming down from your latest Ironman. Yeah.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:26:07]:

Ironman. And then COVID about a week a month later. Yeah. That that was that was tough. Yeah. Anyway.

Celeste Berke [00:26:13]:

You see problems every day. In in the sales world, many people talk about their product. Right? So back in the heyday of drug reps coming in, pharmaceutical reps coming in, talking all about their products, whatnot. I mean, you've seen it, all of the product pitching. And there's a slew of sales advice out there, and we can get to all the advice because you see it as well. But I think there's a lot of parallels here. You know, there's sales advice out there that People are still practicing pitching their product and putting their agenda on you. And then there's those of us that are seeking problems.

Celeste Berke [00:26:48]:

Are there problems that I can solve here? And I'd love to know as a practitioner, every day you hear so many problems. How are you weeding through to figure out, a, what's most important? Is this person full of BS? And, also, how are you going to influence or help them see that they have to change

Dr. Robert Berke [00:27:11]:

Yeah. Before

Celeste Berke [00:27:12]:

some really bad stuff happens.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:27:14]:

Well, first of all, let's talk about the drug reps for a minute because They come in, you know, and pitch their stuff, and some of them are pitching at you a me too, and it's already 3 or 4 iterations that we've heard from other companies. Home. And I feel bad for them because it's it's a tough job. And but we've gotten to the point now they come in and they just They just bring us live and we chat about we chat about their kids and everything else because they know they don't have to you know? And they leave us some samples then go away because it's, Yeah. That whole it it almost irksome when they come in and start pitching at you, hey, hey, I just want 1 prescription out of you. Can you just try it while, you know, like, give me a break. You know, the it's the old hard sell kind of stuff.

Celeste Berke [00:27:58]:

Watch Watch Painkillers for anybody out there. You'll see exactly. It makes sense.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:28:02]:

Yeah, I know. It's it's just but anyway, talking about What I have to deal with is where you're going, where I get a patient coming in and there's a couple of one is sometimes They need a lifestyle change. Those are the hardest because you're you're looking at ingrained issues that have not gone on just for a day or home. You know, smoking. They've been smoking for 30 years. Or or they're looking at a history of if they keep smoking, it's gonna be 30 or 40 years before they give it up. At which point, they're gonna have some significant problems. None of which they have now.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:28:40]:

And so they can't understand why you're chatting about it except you have a dataset that's like from 1960 on of why they should stop. Then you have the other stuff which is a little bit more difficult, And that is the preventive care that you have to encourage people to get. Women, you know, mammograms, pap smears, here. And then you start talking about, ew, colonoscopies, you know, and and and to try and convince people to do those. And then, of course, now with our dear friend COVID around immunizations and the newer iterations of flu vaccine and RSV vaccine and all of this stuff, And they're onto the internet and Facebook and all the craziness out there, and you're you're having to spend all the time Trying to undo really bad information that people are getting to get them to understand why it's important for them. That's very difficult. And there are strategies that you have to use, some of which are easy. If you've got a patient who trusts you it's very easy.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:29:44]:

They just come in and say, hey, I I've heard about this new vaccine. Do you think I should do it? And you talk with them about it and they're fine. You know, because it's a long standing relationship. Here. But then you got people who come in and they are not gonna they don't want any part of this. And they're the toughest because you spend a lot of time with them and a lot of them you don't get to go with them. And the strategies vary from just saying, hey, you know, go ahead. Do what you wanna do.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:30:10]:

I'm telling you A 1000000 people died of COVID over the last year and a half in the United States. You've got some risk factors. I think you're making a big mistake, but You can't do anything about it because they saw on the Internet and da da da da. You know? And and it's impossible. And then you have the other People who you can convince with some strategies. I have one which I love to use and and I'll explain this to you. You know, we have now 33, Four possible issues with colonoscopy. First of all, colonoscopy is life saving.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:30:43]:

It's life saving if if if, you know, used appropriately.

Celeste Berke [00:30:47]:

A little p a little PSA. The age was moved up from 50 to 45.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:30:52]:

That's right. Because we're seeing younger and younger people with colon cancer.

Celeste Berke [00:30:56]:

I'm really excited because my husband turns 45 before I do, and I can't wait for him to go through that before me this coming

Dr. Robert Berke [00:31:06]:

year. Yes. But do you know what? It's lifesaving, and it's the only test we can do That gives you 7 years. It tells you literally you don't have to worry for 7 years. You know, we were doing PAP smears on women every year which is a waste of time, but Anyway, now it's every 3 years or 5 years depending on your HPV positive or not. But we didn't know but this is 7 years. And then we have Cologuard, you can get it in a box the mail, you poop and it's sending it's good for 3 years. Or we can give you a fit kit and you wipe a little poop on it, it's good for a year.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:31:36]:

People won't do it. They just don't wanna do it because it's poop, you know, and so no matter what you do, you can't convince them to do it. So I figured out a strategy. I bring a little sandwich baggy in, and I say, you wanna wear one of these on your side, you know, for the rest of your life? That's what happens if you have a colonoscopy. You have this sandwich baggy on you. Oh boy, I I have convinced a whole bunch of people. But again, you have to figure out ways To get people to go because you're trying to get people to do things that they really don't want to do even though it's in their best interest, and that's a very hard sell. Now in in in a business sense, it's important for us to do that, by the way.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:32:20]:

That's the other side of this which People don't realize most doctors are involved in risk sharing arrangements when If you have a a a pool of people, let's say men and women over 50, should have colonoscopies. Well, if you attain a certain percentage, the insurers have a kicker for you. I I'm talking serious kicker. You know? Like, Real money. And, the same thing with diabetics, if they get their, you can enhance your your your revenues, which are important because they pay the staff, they pay your salary, whatever else, by about, 15 to 20%. So it's really important to get that message across. Home. From a business point of view it's important, but also deep down these measures are Right.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:33:12]:

They're the standard Yep. You know, states public health service and national guidelines which are important for people to do. It's not they're so important that They're incentivizing us to incentivize our patients. It was so it is so lucrative for doctors to do this That we were actually giving patients

Celeste Berke [00:33:36]:

Gift cards. Right?

Dr. Robert Berke [00:33:38]:

Gift cards to happy. To go and have this done. Yeah. Why not? Right. I mean, it's we you're you're incentivizing them to do it, which for you, there's an incentive, but also it's In their best interest.

Celeste Berke [00:33:50]:

Right. There's no negative if if you see if you save a life from early detection from a colonoscopy, you can look at yourself in the mirror that night, versus selling someone a vehicle they don't need just to line your own pockets. Like, there's a

Dr. Robert Berke [00:34:04]:

Of course. Of course. But I don't know how many I mean, a lot of the insurers have gift cards as well. Even with those, it's hard to get people to go. You know? It's It's

Celeste Berke [00:34:14]:

Well, it's the same it's the same thing in business. You're trying to change I mean, for you, it's individuals, but you also have the team. It's trying to change a culture often that a product is going to change. You're trying to change behavior. We've always I mean, how many times did I tell you in my former career? Like, we've always done it this way. And I'm like, yeah. There's so much revenue opportunity or whatnot. It's just like, no.

Celeste Berke [00:34:39]:

Because change is hard as humans, and now you add in that personal factor, and it becomes like, oh, that doesn't apply to me. I don't wanna do it. It's too hard.

Dr. Robert Berke [00:34:51]:

Well, on another on another basis, in 1999 I had some cowboy come to me and say, you know, we've got this computer program you could use in your office, you know. And I looked at it and it was really not very good. And I saw that there was a a conference in New York City on computers and medicine. And I I knew that this was, you know, coming but I because it was all paper and we had gone from paper to We were dictating our notes and someone was, speaking of business, we went from handwriting our notes, which was just brain dead

Celeste Berke [00:35:31]:

because nobody can read your notes,

Dr. Robert Berke [00:35:33]:

yes? That's right. To dictating our notes, having someone type them, send them back on sticky sheets, we would stick them in the chart. High costing us $40,000 a year, but it was time for us, you know, so it well, I went to this

Celeste Berke [00:35:48]:

Well, hold on. Let's. I think this is a good seed for episode number 2. Let's talk about the transition of technology in medicine and someone trying to sell you a tech solution. And what happened because I feel like I was part of this journey as well I busted my face open and had to get stitches at your office during all this. So stay tuned if you're listening. Join us for part 2, lessons in life sales and medicine with doctor Robert Berke.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:

Hello. Hello. This is Celeste on the Sales Edge podcast. I'm joined with Nichole Barker, and I'm so excited to jump in today. She just told me off air, sales managers are going to hate me, so we know she's going to be drafting some juicy bits here. She was actually requested by the whole gap selling team to come on this podcast because she is one of the longest standing gap selling supporters out there. And I love for her to share not only her journey. She was a gap sell Kenan contestant in twenty twenty and learned a lot from that, but has gone on.

Celeste Berke [00:00:37]:

And literally almost every time we have a webinar, she is front and center. No stranger to raising her hand to jump in. So, Nichole, tell us a little bit about your current situation, your current role, and what, this is the only time we're gonna say it, what your product is.

Nichole Barker [00:00:52]:

Yeah. Definitely. So Nichole Barker with a company called DMG, digital marketing group, Based out of Portland, Oregon, but I am in Cornfield Northwest Ohio. So if you have any questions about corn or soybeans, I can try to answer them. But yeah. Yeah. I was on Gap. So Keenan back in 2020 and have learned a lot.

Nichole Barker [00:01:15]:

Digital marketing group, I work with some small, medium, large sized businesses on on their marketing. I will come in, do some consulting work with you to figure out what is the real problem. What is the what is the thing that's stopping you from doing x, y, and z? Where is the juggle. You know, according to Gap Selling, what's the business problem? I figure that stuff out and try to do it quickly. And then, you know, I can do some consulting and you just you get me, and then I also can provide marketing services to help you reach your future status. Attribution, growth, you know, whatever that looks like. I will help with those things. So

Celeste Berke [00:01:59]:

Awesome. Yeah. That's Well, thank you. And we just learned that I am your elder by, I don't know, 2 months or something.

Nichole Barker [00:02:05]:

Yeah. Just just just a few days.

Celeste Berke [00:02:08]:

Do it's so interesting when you arrive at a certain age. Right? Women over the age of, let's say, 40, we won't give it away, and lens starts to change. And I know for me Yes. I have accelerated my learning. I've learned more in the past 3 or 4 years than I had in the 10 prior. And it sounds like you were telling me earlier 2020 was your biggest sales year yet and also just a huge catalyst for you to start developing your learning. So let's dive in a little bit and talk about what makes you unique as a seller. When we when we first started chatting off air, talked about being in that marketing space.

Celeste Berke [00:02:48]:

Right? And now moving into a seller's role. What have you learned? What is your sales edge? Share that with us.

Nichole Barker [00:02:58]:

Yeah. So I've learned, like you, I learned a whole lot in the last 3 years. And it's you know, marketing, I have realized, is like dog years. Anything that happens in marketing, it's 7 to 10 years ahead of the last year before, the year prior. So with that being said, I sell marketing, which is great. It's my favorite thing to do, and I think my sales edge is that I am authentically sassy. What I mean by that is when you get me, you you get me. You don't get different versions of me.

Nichole Barker [00:03:37]:

If you run into me in the grocery store, it's gonna be the same exact Nichole as if we were on a sales call together. I had a manager a few years ago when I first started doing cold calling. She said, Nihcole, you're looking a little limp there. It's time to put your sassy pants on. And so I've kind of brought that with me everywhere I go, and I put my sassy pants on every day. And Because of that, I'm not afraid to have fierce conversations, which if you haven't read the book, Fierce Conversations, I can't remember who the author is.

Celeste Berke [00:04:13]:

Okay, fierce conversations.

Nichole Barker [00:04:15]:

Alright. Fierce conversations. I'm not afraid to have fierce conversations with my clients, my potential clients, My client said I'm about to fire, and I think as women, we need to remember it's okay to be sassy. It's okay.

Celeste Berke [00:04:32]:

So Yeah. Interesting. I not sure that would be the advice I'd give my 4 year old. I'm actually trying to, like, tone down the sass, right, in that in that age group. But, yes, as we get older, we are often told, be that good girl, be poised, be professional. Right. And that's something that I've been working through a lot myself. So my mentor at ASG, our general manager, Rachel, whom you know and you've talked to and have seen over the years, will tell me that all the time.

Celeste Berke [00:05:02]:

The Celeste that's on stage, that's on video that's on the podcast. When you're on sales calls, she'll say you're presenting that same stage presence on your call. What the f are you doing? Just be normal. And I was like, what? I am? I feel like I'm back in that corporate role of, like, let me put my suit on. Let me act like I'm forming and using big words and the language, whereas people truly, and you and I were chatting about this, just want to view as a human. See the imperfections and that you pause during a sales call, and you're really taking time to think about before you respond versus when you get the calls and it's a straight up script that someone is reading and you know you're just a number to them.

Nichole Barker [00:05:46]:

Mhmm. Do. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it when you're in that sales call and when they can see the when the potential client can see that you're really thinking about, and you're really listening to what they're saying. And you come back at them with, wait a minute, But you said this a few minutes ago. What are you saying now? That doesn't make any sense. Help me figure that out because it doesn't make sense.

Nichole Barker [00:06:18]:

And being able to have that, like I said, that fierce conversation with the client, basically, calm them out on their bullshit Because there's so much sometimes that will happen, and you have to be able to and willing to

Celeste Berke [00:06:35]:

do yeah.

Nichole Barker [00:06:35]:

Call them out, and you have to be willing. The other piece of that is you have to be willing to walk away. If there is not that problem, Hey. It was great to talk with you. I don't think you're a good fit for me, and I am not a good fit for you. I wish you the best. If there ever comes a time where, you know, you need me or if I can, you know, refer you to one of my colleagues or, hey. I'm here for that.

Nichole Barker [00:06:59]:

Right? That that goes back to that authenticity, you know, that I care. I want you to succeed, but You're not a fit for me. Right.

Celeste Berke [00:07:07]:

And that's okay. Dating. So I went on 62 first dates in 1 year once, and every single one was this is this gonna be the one? Right? Like, trying to make it fit Yeah. And jumping right to the future state in all of this instead of telling myself it is okay if this one goes away. Like, there will be more. Right? As soon as my dad always told me, it's like the shooter's mentality. Because I was 36 years old crying. From age 34 to 36 was really tough dating and not knowing what was gonna happen and being a new new.

Celeste Berke [00:07:47]:

Tease, like, shooter's mentalities. It's like the next one, the next one, the next one, the next one. And I don't think that is tying yourself to the outcome. It is trying to say whatever the outcome is, like, it's kind of just a next, and it's a next. And I had that massive shift earlier this year, and I'm sure you have in your career as well, where you get so attached to the freaking outcome that it ruins it, like, ruins our life temporarily. Your relationship is ruined. Your day is ruined. You don't wanna eat or maybe you wanna overeat.

Celeste Berke [00:08:22]:

I can't be present. My mood has changed because you're so attached to this one didn't go in, and my husband Miles said it on the last podcast. That prospect is saying no and allowing me the opportunity to go find another. Yes. It's like,

Nichole Barker [00:08:39]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I also try to I I take my deals very seriously, and I take them personal. But I also know the person on the other side of the computer or the

Celeste Berke [00:08:56]:

the other side of the table.

Nichole Barker [00:08:56]:

They're a person too, and they have things going on in their lives that might affect our deal right now. It might affect their viewpoint of me right now, and that's okay. At the end of the day, hey. Great. I wanna leave you better than before you met me, and, you know, that's just me. Again, that authenticity and being sassy and And being willing and able to say, alright. Great. Let's move forward or, okay, we just need to leave it.

Celeste Berke [00:09:28]:

Aw. I love that. To have arrived at that place. And interesting tell us before we jump to the next question, what has had you so because you have changed jobs since 20 twenty, you said. Mhmm. What has had you, I guess, intertwined within the gap selling methodology that you've hung on and you keep trying to find ways to implement it in your day to day. What had you doing that?

Nichole Barker [00:09:54]:

I think it's really the Almost the psychology of it, understanding that there is something happening on the back end. There is something that is fueling this Loss of money or loss of time, whatever it is. You know, I was telling you about a manager I had had previous who was just, But, you know, she did teach me one thing. In sales, it's all about, at the end of the day, the last thing that really matters is how are you gonna make the money, how are you gonna save them time? And with gap selling, it's figuring out where are they losing their time, How are they losing money? How much money are they losing? And then how much or how or why do they wanna be in the future and just really keeping the idea in my head all the time of where are they now, where do they wanna go, even in my personal life, where am I now, where do I wanna go? You know? And then saying, okay. Well, here's these 2 pieces. For me personally, I'm making this much.

Celeste Berke [00:11:14]:

Yeah.

Nichole Barker [00:11:14]:

I wanna be making this much. How do we get there? What's keeping me from getting there? And then putting together a plan for it and saying, alright, listen, I need more tools or I need different tools or I need to get myself focused or I need to walk away from my desk for 20 minutes every hour just to refocus and recalibrate.

Celeste Berke [00:11:39]:

Yeah. It's usually that state. And I posted about this the other day, a grocery store example of I hate going to the grocery store. I loathe it. It makes me very upset on the weekends. I will bitch and moan and walk around my house, which I have to tone down the swearing. I'm not like I mean, Kenan spares a lot. I'm like Mhmm.

Celeste Berke [00:12:00]:

Obviously, I've started swearing more now that I've been in ASG. And my daughter, I've caught her multiple times this weekend. She was like, bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. I was like, oh, that's me. And we wanna talk about this place of, I can't see I'm going to restore all of these woes around it, yet I have not taken the leap to do pickup or delivery because it's, like, not that untenable yet yet. Right? I mean, I'm making everybody else's life miserable for the weekend when I talk about it, and then I don't wanna do it at the grocery start sweating.

Celeste Berke [00:12:33]:

Anything that goes back to when I was pregnant, I wouldn't I did do pickup when I was pregnant. I just was hanging over the groceries, the cart. Like, I I couldn't. I was so exhausted. And so that state was untenable, but I think you're you know, you've hit the nail on the head here where be constantly have to be rooted in the current state. Everybody loves to live in this future state where we all make $1,000,000 or more, and we win the lottery. Like, we're beach vacation. All that stuff is great, but what's happening in the current state, and what's this difference? What's the gap? And am I willing to make a change? Do which oftentimes is no for our buyers.

Celeste Berke [00:13:12]:

They aren't because they haven't been in their muck long enough in order to realize now I wanna make a change. Yeah. Alright. So so my last question here is your sales career. There's a lot of people. Right? Put put on the sassy pants, whatever advice people wanna give you. Outbound is dead. No.

Celeste Berke [00:13:30]:

It's not. Now it's this. Don't write an email with this. Now it's like, noise is coming at us all of the time.

Nichole Barker [00:13:36]:

Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:13:37]:

What is a sales myth that you want to bust?

Nichole Barker [00:13:42]:

Okay. So I have 1 salesman I wanna challenge, and it correlates with the one that I wanna bust. Okay? And like I said off air, sales managers and sales leaders are probably going to, like, hate me for this, don't shoot me it works for me it may not work for everybody else. The one I want to challenge is everybody's a client. Everybody's a customer. Absolutely not. I do not want everybody as a customer, as a client. Not everybody is ready and able to do business with me.

Nichole Barker [00:14:23]:

I know it sounds it sounds a little cocky, but it's not because I can back it up. I'm confident in what I can do. That kind of goes along with quantity over quality. I think it's silly. I had a manager one time tell me I had to sit down for 4 hours And make 100 phone calls and that it's a numbers game and that I'm gonna be lucky, and I'm gonna get 5 appointments. I would rather spend time researching who I wanna do business with And then target those specific people because I can solve their problem. I know what I know what I think the business problem is probably going to be based on the things that I know already, the clients that I've worked with before, why would I wanna go out and call 100 people that do underwater basket weaving in Northwest Ohio. Doesn't make sense.

Nichole Barker [00:15:30]:

I wanna call this one specific like, for example, the HVAC industry. I know it really well. I wanna call people in that industry. I'm gonna call those businesses because I understand what their business problem is. I also understand, Because I've worked with enough of them that there are some technical issues that they have, and I know the tools they're using, and I can say, hey. You know? We need to do this and this. So to make a very long story short, not everybody is your customer, And it is kind of a numbers game, but it's not a numbers game if

Celeste Berke [00:16:05]:

you do it the right way. It it can be a numbers game if you're swimming in a fully stocked pond of your ICP and individuals or organizations that you don't have a business problem. If you're just going out there in wide blue ocean of, like, anybody and everybody. No. Right? This is what leads to burnout. This is why reps get, like, so pissed off. And we'll see it time and time again. I had a call with a team the other day where they're not getting we're not booking any meetings.

Celeste Berke [00:16:34]:

So our it's actually the CEO. Just told us we need to make more calls. And I'm like, I don't know. Like

Nichole Barker [00:16:43]:

Yeah. It's like the definition, Yeah. The definition of insanity. Right? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. You know, if if you're just making more phone calls, will you eventually get somebody, you know, that says, oh, yeah, I need to talk to you? Sure. But if you called the right people at a time where they probably, You know, they need your help, and there is a business problem that relates to what you can solve. If you are confident In what you solve, and you you know your stuff. Instead of getting

Celeste Berke [00:17:24]:

you're fine. The dog pun. Yeah. Yes. What you're saying.

Nichole Barker [00:17:29]:

Yeah. Yes. Exactly. But instead of getting those 5 meetings for a 100 phone calls, you know, you can make 20 phone calls and get 15 meetings.

Celeste Berke [00:17:38]:

Do Yeah. I love it. Well, Nichole, individuals can find you on LinkedIn, so I'll make sure that we well, I'll tag you, obviously. Play. It's been such a pleasure pleasure getting to know you more in-depth than just from our webinar. So I appreciate the support and you sharing bring a little bit about the day in the life of a seasoned gap seller and someone who's constantly reinventing themselves tweaking because let's face it, sales is tough. And whatever we can do to aid people so they feel confident and and they're able to put on their sassy pants. Let's do that.

Celeste Berke [00:18:14]:

So I truly appreciate your conversation today. And remind us one more time, the book. Fierce

Nichole Barker [00:18:21]:

Fierce Conversations is the book, and I'm so sorry. I came to the author.

Celeste Berke [00:18:26]:

And I'll link it. So we'll put Conversations. That's an awesome title. Thank you again for your time today. I appreciate it.

Nichole Barker [00:18:36]:

Absolutely. Yeah. I appreciate it too. And if you haven't read Gap Selling, if you haven't been on the trainings, if you haven't been on the Gap in Hours or anything like that, you need to. It will change your thoughts on how to sell, and it will change your thoughts on Things that happen in your life, so read it.

Celeste Berke [00:18:58]:

There you have it, folks.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:

Hello. Hello. It is Celeste on The Sales Edge Podcast, and today I'm joined by Ben Miles. I will have him introduce himself in a second, but I'm so excited. This is a little bit different of an episode in that we are talking with someone who is in an active of seller's seat, like, in the day to day, the thick of it all on giving some tips on what makes him successful that our sales leadership should listen up to because it's probably going to go against what some of your sellers are telling you. So, Ben, give us a little intro, and I will say Ben and I met through Gap Selling. So when I went through my training certification, Ben was our star student. He raised his hand and went through the buyer's journey exercise, which can be really difficult, but it is a great exercise for those that are in the class, to understand, well, our buyer doesn't wanna be sold to.

Celeste Berke [00:00:58]:

Right? There's a reason why they're buying, and it's usually a lot of layers deeper than we think. So, Ben, give us a little intro about you.

Ben Miles [00:01:08]:

Well, thank you, Celeste. I appreciate the warm welcome. I love that class, and I recommend it to, anybody that has the time to take it. I'm an account executive. You know, my day looks like some other account executives who are full cycle, so it it involves prospecting, whether that be email or cold call, and then, of course, running calls for prospects and, also doing a little bit of management on the client side.

Celeste Berke [00:01:33]:

We joked around a lot when Ben was in the class because his major purchase was a car, so we were diving into the reasons behind him purchasing a car. And what really stood out is how Ben embraced problem centric selling. So a lot of teams and if you're listening, if your team struggles with this as well, they are not alone, our product focused. We see this all the time. Let me try to sell you something. Let me put myself before you and Ben really honed in on this concept of, oh, shit. I need to know what problems I'm selling to before I get on a call. So, Ben, I always ask guests, and I want to hear it because I think this is what makes you this freaking unicorn.

Celeste Berke [00:02:18]:

Nobody will admit it, but they hate doing what you love. Tell us, what is your sales edge? What makes you unique as a seller?

Ben Miles [00:02:29]:

I love cold calling. Taking a step back for a second, as a cold caller and and anybody who's listening or watching this, that cold calls, you're in a very, very unique position. How many times a day do you actually approach someone and put them on the spot? All that Cortisol pumping through their body. It's a very interesting place psychologically to be in. You're calling someone who has no clue who you are, Probably doesn't know your company and certainly isn't expecting your call, but what I've found in cold calling and and why I feel it's my sales edge is it It leads to genuine interactions. This isn't something that somebody can type up in an email in wordsmith. It's it's real. It's live.

Ben Miles [00:03:12]:

It's now. And what I found throughout my career of cold calling is that you really get to the heart of the issues with prospects that are really feeling some type of pain. It allows you to uncover that in a much more efficient manner rather than sending out, you know, tens of Automated emails or even spending the time to personalize emails because at the end of the day, that's really a shot in the dark until you actually hear back from the person confirming That there's some sort of problem or broken process that you can solve. So I feel like cold calling is my my edge.

Celeste Berke [00:03:46]:

And where did you learn this from that that became, like a skill set or a knack that you had. Where where did that behavior come from?

Ben Miles [00:03:55]:

Well, I, I got into sales from a real young age. I was 17, and I was working door to door, so I was knocking.

Celeste Berke [00:04:02]:

Yes. Rejection central.

Ben Miles [00:04:05]:

That's right. Yep. We we used to joke. We would have a a little, a little stick with us, so they tried to slam the door in front of us. We but in between the door and the door frame. And in a way, it give us a little more time With cold calling, which I got into a couple years later, obviously, anyone can hang up at any time, and sometimes that's for the better. But I got into cold calling early on in my career. And, really, for the past 10 years, it's really what I've been doing in every position.

Ben Miles [00:04:28]:

It's been the heart of the way that I prospect. I see email as a supplemental piece, but for me, cold calling has been something that's been really important and key in my success.

Celeste Berke [00:04:37]:

I know we're talking offline about You actually looking at your success on cold calling and in the seat that you're in saying, hey. I I may even adjust my Cadence moving forward because I'm having such success, what would you make if if someone was listening and they didn't wanna hear it, I mean, myself included. Right? I I don't love the cold call. What would you say that adjustment would be from and that you double down on 7 days out of the week?

Ben Miles [00:05:09]:

Well, I I feel like when when you're typing up emails, as great as it is to be able to sit back and and really get Clear mind and and think through exactly the way that you wanna position a message, whether that be 1 to 1 in a personalized email Or a personalized message of any form, whether that even be over text message or in a cadence where it's automated. I feel like There's a lot of time committing to someone who may or may not actually respond to you, so there's there's no verification that there's any fit. When you're cold calling, you can do that efficiently, and I would argue you can do that very effectively. And you you get that person on the phone. You get that immediate feedback, and you can test your message right there.

Celeste Berke [00:05:54]:

I love that. Yeah. That's such an interesting way of putting it putting it. And, yes, we spend so much time on, like, here are email sequences, and this is the cadence. We're gonna drop them into this and hope we're using, like, hope. Right? Hope is our strategy when it comes to that. Mhmm. Versus, like you just said, if I'm making a cold call, I get that immediate feedback.

Celeste Berke [00:06:12]:

It's either a hang up. It's either, like, Heck no or you've piqued their interest enough. When you're talking with individuals, what are you finding that resonates that allows you to have someone hang on the phone. I know that's I'm asking you some of your secret sauce here, but What is something that you do that piques interest?

Ben Miles [00:06:34]:

Well, I I think it's acknowledging what The call is. Having been cold calling for 10 years, I've bumped my head a lot. I I've learned a lot of what to do, but I've also learned a lot about what not to do. And I think where some folks get lost, myself included, is in trying to obfuscate the call, Whether that be the call live or even a voice mail, you you you wanna be genuine, and you wanna level with that prospect. So I think what generates the interest early on is acknowledging it's Cold call. Very common for me to say, hey, Celeste, it's Ben with XYZ Company. We've never spoken before and this is a cold call. I was just Hoping to get 27 seconds of your time and see if it makes sense to discuss it beyond that point.

Ben Miles [00:07:18]:

And what I've found is folks appreciate that. In fact, Oftentimes, I'll I'll get thanked for the way that I approach the call because there's a lot of questions swirling in their head when they're getting a call from a number that they don't recognize, Then they hear a name that they don't recognize, and then they hear a company name that they don't recognize. It is right there fight or flight on that call. And that's a little bit about what I was talking about earlier when I said it's very unique what we do as cold callers. You're putting people in fight or flight. So my goal and what I think brings Folks is is to immediately acknowledge it's a cold call. We've not spoken before, but you wanna let them know that you're not the salesperson that's gonna sit there And keep them tied up. That's why I drop in the 27 seconds.

Celeste Berke [00:08:00]:

Love that too. And I will say for any of you who's listening to audio, I can see why people are like, yes. I will listen to So you have that voice for the phone as well. So I'm sure that that how it's like that radio voice, right, where you're like, yes. Tell me more. So I do I do not have that voice. So I can see how people are like, oh, yeah, Ben. I'll give you those 27 seconds.

Celeste Berke [00:08:20]:

Interesting.

Ben Miles [00:08:21]:

Yeah. Thank god I don't prospect with my face. So it it works out well. I can just cold call.

Celeste Berke [00:08:26]:

Well, that's interesting. In 10 years of cold calling, let's talk about the no's. So something I struggled with as a seller. I mean I think you and I joked via a message a while back when I turned 44. Right? My 44th birthday. I had a tough time up even through earlier this year of of the rejection and taking rejection personally. And I don't know what it was if it was coming on with the ASG, the gap selling team. There's so many badasses.

Celeste Berke [00:08:59]:

Right? Or you just get to a point in your life where you're like, the nose roll off my back. Right? I I don't let them affect me the way that they used to. I used to take every no so personally because I was so hung up on the outcome. And I'd love to know from you 10 years in, When you get a rejection, when you get a no, how did you overcome that and not let it, like, stop you in your tracks and and allow you to keep going.

Ben Miles [00:09:24]:

So this might seem like an interesting way of framing it, but but I I really mean it. It's taking that no and looking at the underlying yes. The underlying yes to that no is them saying, Yes. You have my permission to find someone who has a problem that you can solve. So when I get that no, as a human, of course, there's a degree of disappointment. We don't want that. Whether it's a no to my pitch, because my pitch does start off with asking if I can get 27 seconds of their time, or it's it's a no to whatever it is that that I happen to be selling for for a company. But that yes is what drives me.

Ben Miles [00:10:06]:

And I think reminding yourself that them saying no to you, They're saying yes to you spending your time somewhere where it's spent better and being able to actually help someone. And I think, ultimately, what keeps me going between those nos or in between yeses is being able to real reminding myself constantly, I sell to serve. That's what I really like about what I do, and companies that have good products or services that can solve problems, I wanna be a part of, And I wanna get that message out. So that's that's what keeps me going and and and keeps the wind underneath my wings between those, you know, between yeses.

Celeste Berke [00:10:46]:

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Super insightful. And what I loved when we first met is you had talked about or what struck me is that you have this concept of, like, I'm a lifelong learner. Right? I'm a student of learning. I love learning about sales, different methodologies, maybe methodologies that you don't like, methodologies You do so this this idea that we're never at the finish line with our learning, and I think that even the books behind you probably Resonate with that. But along the way, we've gotten a lot of bad sales advice or seeing things we don't like, or maybe we just across a point in our life where that no longer serves us. And I like to ask every guest on here what their sales myth is that they wanna bust.

Celeste Berke [00:11:32]:

So, Ben, What's a myth around sales that you wanna bust?

Ben Miles [00:11:38]:

That we that everybody has to see the light. The truth is when we're calling or emailing or in any sort of a sales interaction, As a salesperson, we're taught to be hyperaccountable, and I think that's a great thing. And that's bled into my personal life, but I think it's important to remind ourselves that we can't help everybody, Whether the person has a broken process that our solution can solve for Or they don't. It at a certain point, you have to know when to move on. So I think you can get in a cycle Of trying to make something work, that's not gonna work if if you cold call that prospect, which is why I love cold calling so much, is you really can get to the heart of the matter Pretty quickly. In fact, one of my my favorite opening lines for a company I previously sold for was to really hit on the three business problems that we solve for. And I I would just say, look. You know, these are we help, you know, so and so with Problems that that they're facing that are like this, this, or this, are any of those something that your team's facing? No.

Ben Miles [00:12:45]:

Great. Have a nice day. I I can't help you, but I wish you the best, and and the goal there is to not put yourself in a position where you're trying to say, well well well, maybe we can make it work. We're a salesperson. We're supposed to grease our hair back and and just make things work. That's not always the case, and I think that's a big sales myth That I I think needs to be buzzed.

Celeste Berke [00:13:05]:

Yeah. Definitely. And and I think you hit on something there. Right? There's that immediate no, you can't help me. No. I'm not interested at Versus when we send emails out into oblivion, and we're like, we don't know because they're not telling us, so we'll keep trying, which probably goes back to that movie with, like, Will Smith. Right? How he was, like, so great on the phone because he learned those nuances of if I don't hang up the phone or if I just press and I'm able to get in more dials. Right? Those the more times you're getting to that no, it's probably getting you to that yes quicker then sitting back and thinking about it and the strategy and what did this person say, and now they gave me a no, etcetera.

Celeste Berke [00:13:43]:

So you built a suit of armor around that. Well, Ben, any parting words before we leave the podcast on how, you know, really we like to look at Sales leadership often isn't in tune with what is happening in the day to day, right, in the trenches. What's What's working, what's not, what's working for some person. You know, somebody may not work for somebody else. And for all those team members who are telling their VP of sales or CRO, like, Cold calling is dead. Give us some final thoughts on why you believe cold calling is a skill that still needs to be mastered.

Ben Miles [00:14:23]:

I I really believe that it is the most efficient way to fill your pipeline, And I I feel like if you do it right, you can accelerate your sales cycle. You're spending your time with folks who Quite literally picked up the phone, stayed on the call, you were able to ask the most important questions, And ultimately determine if the pain or or problem that they're facing as an organization is something that your company can help with. And When I started to pitch that way, I had a number of prospects where I didn't even have to close them on the cold call and ask them for a time to meet. They asked me, and when we met for the meeting, my colleague asked, you know, you know, what made you take the call today? And it was Ben understood the challenges that we were facing because I offered up those pains on the front end of the call. So cold calling is not dead. It's a way to make things more efficient and bring in the kinds of buyers who are actually gonna buy, even if that means saying bye to some of them and hearing some noes.

Celeste Berke [00:15:29]:

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Again, it's it's pretty rare that people are speaking up about cold calling is not dead. Obviously, on LinkedIn, there are a lot of people who are talking about cold calling done right, and I think you've laid out some great examples of when done properly and you're armed with the problem information. And you're speaking to that, and you're, like, asking for permission, and you're telling people why you're there. Right? There's nothing worse as a human being of Not knowing what's gonna happen when you're in a situation, right, and you go into a doctor's office for a procedure. Like, this is why you feel a level of Comfort when someone walks you through, what's going to happen? And it's no different in sales. Like, people want to be disarmed and have an understanding so that they hear you out but if you just come out the gate with it usually the defenses are up.

Celeste Berke [00:16:13]:

So I appreciate you sharing that and please connect with Ben on LinkedIn as He shares information on cold calling or if you want some tips on the side definitely DM Ben on like, Hey, man. I need some cold calling help. Can you go over what you say one more time so it can help you or your team have success? So I appreciate you being here, and, we'll see you on LinkedIn.

Ben Miles [00:16:39]:

Thank you, Celeste. Thanks for having me.

Celeste Berke [00:16:42]:

Alright. Awesome. You did so great.

Ben Miles [00:16:46]:

Woo. Thank

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:

Hello. Hello. It is Celeste with the sales edge pod. I'm here with April Palmer, and I'm so excited. A funny story, and then I'm gonna let April introduce herself. I have seen April on the LinkedIn. Right? The mothership of business networking and connecting. And I was so scared to reach out to her because she has such a big personality.

Celeste Berke [00:00:23]:

I had impostor syndrome, and I thought, What if she doesn't connect with me? Do I have anything to say? And then a turn of events, she walks up to our booth at Saster in September. And she's this tiny little peanut, and we hugged. And it was just like an awesome moment of, like, oh my gosh. We're just 2 women. Right? Like, shooting the shit. Like, not even a big deal. Get out of your own freaking head, and here she is on the podcast. So tell us a little bit about yourself, all your roles, everything that you're working on.

April Palmer [00:00:52]:

Okay. All the thing. Okay. First of all, like, what's hilarious about this is I've heard a couple of people say that they, like, worry about reaching out to me, and I would like everyone to just know that I'm the most, Like, there's a reason why all of my social media is called hot mess boss because I'm like I'm a I'm a Fucking disaster. Wait.

Celeste Berke [00:01:14]:

What was that?

April Palmer [00:01:15]:

Did I ask you? Yeah. I am, like, I'm a fucking disaster, and I'm so down to earth both because I'm short and also because that's my personality. And so, like, unless you're gonna send me a picture of your genitals, then which is, like, not allowed, Then connect with me because I love meeting new people, and I totally fangirled over you in return. And so it was so fun to see you.

Celeste Berke [00:01:39]:

And we're very similar in age, you know, both have kids. It's just you realize the stories that you make up in your head are not what's happening in real life. So, yes, thank you for being human and going with the flow.

April Palmer [00:01:53]:

True. We're we're so human. And I tell myself fake stories all the time. And I actually have a sticky note by my desk right here that says, are you telling yourself a true story. And I have to read that to myself on a regular basis because my anxiety lies to me a lot too, Or maybe it doesn't. It doesn't.

Celeste Berke [00:02:13]:

Yes. And I was so impressed when you start talking about surfing, and now you have this podcast, and you have this new idea for business. Oh, now that you're an adjunct professor as well, and you're traveling the globe, and you have kids. And I'm like, where where does she fit all of this in? So give us a brief a brief synopsis of all of your roles, what you're encompassing, and individuals you like connecting with.

April Palmer [00:02:37]:

Okay. So my real job, like, my real actual day job that is the bread and butter for me is I work for a company called Duckbill Group. We help companies optimize their AWS costs both through their infrastructure and by helping them to renegotiate their contracts with AWS. So you're talking 100 of 1,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 of dollars worth of contracts with AWS, and we help people pay Jeff Bezos less, which is, like, everybody wants to do that. Right? It's amazing. Then I also teach Part time as an adjunct professor at VCU, we have a very small group within VCU called the da Vinci Center, and we're like the island of misfit boys, which is really super fun. So we teach product innovation. We kind of marry, like, technology and sociology ecology and sales and revenue growth and entrepreneurship.

April Palmer [00:03:32]:

So it's this kind of super awesome hodgepodge of ideas to help bring in the next generation of entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. And so, like, that's exciting. And, in fact, Our team just got an award from Fast Company as we have been recognized as some of the world changing ideas that we're putting out there in educations. We're fucking playing the game, which is so fun to be part of that team. Because I'm like the weird one where I'm like, I don't know why you keep hiring me. But I look around. Everybody else is so smart and, like, good at what they do. If you want me to sit in a room and listen to what's going on with your business and throw, like, a couple of really good zinger ideas at you and then be like, peace out.

April Palmer [00:04:13]:

I'm not don't make me do that thing. It's just a great idea, then I'm super good at that. What else I've got.

Celeste Berke [00:04:21]:

Holy fuck.

April Palmer [00:04:21]:

I have 3 kids, 22, 22, and almost 18, 1 blind 6 cats. Sandy vacation. Off an epic vacation. I got one. So I work remotely because I can work from anywhere. So I just take my computer, and I just back off to wherever I wanna go. Most of the time, it's a surf destination. So I just got home from 2 weeks with my parents in Portugal, and I taught my parents how to surf, which is.

April Palmer [00:04:48]:

Me. I did Amsterdam for 3 weeks earlier this year. I've done Costa Rica, Spain, Portugal, Canada. And I just take my take my board and whatever and just go.

Celeste Berke [00:05:02]:

That's awesome. And I think you touched on something, you know, looking back to the days when I was in college. There's a lot of theory. And the days that really stood out for me were either when you had to go somewhere and do something and, like, put it into practice, or someone from this, like, fictitious outside world that you didn't even know of because you're in this box for warriors came in an unleashed about the real world. And you're thinking like, what? I don't know. How is it? Like, I'm I'm sitting here with all this theory, which sounds great, But now we're talking about real life and practice. So I think that while you may feel like an outsider, this is relevant to what is happening. Like, someone who is in the trenches and working.

Celeste Berke [00:05:42]:

I have no clue. I have an AWS account, and I used to put things in the cloud when I, I don't know, back before. And I taught myself how to do it, but I don't understand it at all. So I can only imagine these companies, they they don't get it either. So the practical side of teaching our next generation int entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. They probably love that you have, like, the ins and outs of the real world.

April Palmer [00:06:06]:

Right. And I don't sugarcoat things. I mean, I know we're getting ready we're here to talk about sales, and this, I think, is across the board for me is I I read this article by Simon Sinek once, and he talked about surrounding yourself with people who will give you real feedback rather than the feedback that you want to hear. And so in my mind, I translated this to, like, be a person who gives a fuck about other people's success so much that you will tell them the real story, whether that's, like, what really happens in entrepreneurship or, like, what's actually going to happen if They don't change things in their business when I'm trying to sell them things of which is actually, like I'm not really good at selling people things. I'm just kind of, like, there and help facilitate the process for them to to get to where they need to be. But this is one of the things that I do with teaching too. Like, I taught one of the One of the myths that people say all the time is, like, do what you love, and you'll never work a day in your life. And that's the biggest honk of bullshit I've ever heard in my life.

April Palmer [00:07:13]:

Do what you love. You won't sleep because your brain won't turn off. You'll get an ulcer. You'll lose your hair, maybe your marriage and, like, all of your money and, like, most of your sanity. Right? So it has to be worth it. And I think It's the same thing when we go into sales and these sales conversations. It's like, you have to be able to say to the people on the other side of the table, Like, I'm gonna give you the real skinny and if you whether you like it or not. Right? And, like, That's it.

April Palmer [00:07:48]:

And you do with that information what you want. If that's buying from me, awesome. If it's not buying from me, also awesome. Most of the time, that means I'll see you again in 6 months, and I'll charge you double. But, like, fine.

Celeste Berke [00:08:00]:

Yeah. And I think that comes from we talked a lot about that on our team as well. Like, Totally detaching from the outcome. Going in and saying, hey. The agenda for this call is this. Whether you work with us or not, I'm here to, like, drop value, to show you, to uncover. Like, you do with that information whatever you want. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it because if I can help you, and you go work with someone else.

Celeste Berke [00:08:24]:

Like, I still showed up and provided value and credibility, but often in sales, we're so attached to that outcome in getting the sale that we are icky, and we don't provide any value.

April Palmer [00:08:35]:

Right. Trickle down economics in practice. Right? Like, Leadership says we have to and it makes sense. Right? We have to have a certain amount of money to run a business, full stop. But then that trickles down to sales quotas, and sales quotas get so ingrained in what salespeople are doing on a day to day basis that it's really, really hard to step back and say, you know what? I'm just here to do what's best for my customer and client and make sure that at the end of the day, the promises that I'm making, like, we can deliver on those promises, or I can hook them up with somebody you can. But but it's hard to be able to do that if you work for an organization that's really attached to activity metrics and hitting certain quota milestones in in specific ways. And that He is a really hard reality to face that we kind of live in today from a sales world because I believe that if you do the right things and you do them consistently for as many people as you possibly can, that, like, Goals don't really matter. You'll sell as much as you can.

April Palmer [00:09:44]:

Right? End of the day. And so I never look at my goal really other than to know, like, am I hitting some accelerators so I have some fun money. Maybe something. Right? But, like, it doesn't matter. If my goal is however many 1,000,000 of dollars and I do the best that I can, and I can sell half of that. That's literally the best that I can. And if I can look at myself in the mirror and be like, I did the best that I could, and I work to grow and learn and all of those things. And if I triple my quota, also, like, cool story.

April Palmer [00:10:14]:

That's the best that I could do. But, unfortunately, organizations don't, you know, work on April.

Celeste Berke [00:10:23]:

Yes. And so we talked on this. You know, I asked a question. What is your Sales Edge, and I know you have many. Like, what makes you unique? What is different? What's a different approach? How would you answer that knowing that you just gave us some some tidbits it into, like, the April way, which is show up authentically, and it kind of works itself out now or later. What would you say to that?

April Palmer [00:10:44]:

I think that my biggest edge is that I am probably one of the most curious people you have ever met. And so I walk into every sales call with this kind of, like, burning curiosity. And it has nothing to do with building a business case so that we can do an ROI so that we can put together a proposal that knocks the shots off. Like, that type of great. It's awesome. Right? I get it that those things are important. That's what pays my bills and buys my plane tickets, which which is really important. But, like, when I have a sales call and right now, I'm I'm all 100% inbound right now.

April Palmer [00:11:29]:

And so, like, it's a little bit different. But even when I was outbound, I would do the thing where I would, like, get to somebody's website. And I'd look, and I'd be like, oh, I don't know what that what they do. What does that mean? And then I would Google that, and then I would be watching videos and YouTube things and whatever and become an accidental expert on some part of their business. And it it didn't really matter if it had anything to do with what I was selling. If I could walk in and be like, Hey. I was reading this, and this happened. And then also, did you know that this company did that? And, like, all of a sudden, people realize that I'm not necessarily there to sell them.

April Palmer [00:12:08]:

I'm there to, like, partner with them, and I'm so curious about who they are and what they do that. I'm also then going to dig into their problems and ask why, who, what, and where, why how like, as many times as I possibly can until I actually understand what's going on at the heart of the issue.

Celeste Berke [00:12:30]:

Really, like, her think once you're channeling those 3 kids you had and, you know, early on when you're just like, well, why? Why? What about what about this? What about this, mama?

April Palmer [00:12:41]:

I'm kind of a toddler when it comes to sales. Like, I'm so I'm genuinely excited to learn more. And And then what's fun about that is when you end up going into other companies that do something similar or are somehow attached to it, then you get more and more knowledge. And that that really legitimizes you in the face of your clients as well. But I think they I I think they just feel like you care about them.

Celeste Berke [00:13:11]:

Yeah. That genuine curiosity. We talk a lot about that on a team. You'll hear it in our sales calls. We're, like, really curious about this, and It sounds to me like that sales edge, that genuine curiosity is what leads you versus any type of agenda or these are the questions I have to ask. It's really leading with curiosity about what is going on in a business so I can help them regardless of that outcome. And then in the process, yes, you're kind of getting that PhD as well and learning from each potential customer or everybody you have a conversation with. I love that.

Celeste Berke [00:13:48]:

And so

April Palmer [00:13:50]:

I think One of the things that because I know, like, you do so much with gap selling, and I remember reading that selling. And it just, like, I mean, I have a really honest moment with you all because this is what I do and who I am is I fucking hate business books. Like, they're the worst. They're awful. And because most of them should be called, it's common sense stupid. Right? And so, like, you you I get all of these sales books, And there's always a chapter on, like, send a follow-up email. Well, fucking. Right? Like, what year are we in? Sorry.

April Palmer [00:14:24]:

But one of the things that I love about gap selling is that there and, like, that stuck with me because I tend to get, like, 1 little gym out of everything. I think I got more. I got more than 1, Sheena. Sorry. But there's this like, are you really uncovering a problem? We talked about this earlier. Or are you uncovering an issue with a process? And, like, cool story that you can fix an issue with a process. Cool. Like, people will pay you for that.

April Palmer [00:14:55]:

It's good business. It's great. But if you can actually uncover the problem, but more than that, what caused the problem and what is the ripple effect of the problem and who all is impacted by that and what that means to them. So for me, a lot of times, if I ask question and question and question let's just talk about, like, AWS and group. I end up learning like, oh, we actually are planning to IPO in 18 months. And so it's really important for us to make sure that this contract is the appropriate contract with AWS so that we can publicize it during our IPO because it gives our investors and future stockholders' confidence that we have this partnership with AWS. That is why this is so important. Well, guess what? That is not a decision then for a VP of engineer

Celeste Berke [00:15:48]:

Right.

April Palmer [00:15:48]:

To make. Like and they don't value what we're doing. They won't pay what we want them to pay. So you've got to because we may be easy, but we're not cheap. And you know? So, like, if you don't know those things, if you haven't figured out every person who's And not, like, every every person. Right? But, like, enough people to get in and say, what's actually going on here rather than the surface level, then you're not doing it right unless you're unless you're sole goal as volume, which is fine. Like, that's that is a a legitimate business and revenue growth tactic. It's just not the way that it works for me.

Celeste Berke [00:16:27]:

I love us. So it's like that curiosity around, yeah, what else is going on in the business? What else? What else? What is this impact? How does that show up? Like, what are their future plans? Where are they to that. It's about asking a whole bunch of questions and realizing that that process, that sales cycle, all those conversations, Like, it may not be on your timeline. It could be a longer timeline, but when you're uncovering, could get more stakeholders involved. Right? You may have back to the drawing board. It could be a bigger problem. They have to fix something else first before they can even chat with you. So I love all of that.

Celeste Berke [00:17:03]:

Curious about a myth. I know you and I talked a little bit about these. We tend to put salespeople in boxes of Salespeople need to be prospecting and doing this and sending cold emails or have a certain right? Like, all of this stuff,

April Palmer [00:17:21]:

which

Celeste Berke [00:17:21]:

I was on a training earlier today, and I can just see it. Right? All the, like, followers of, you know, we're gonna do this process. No. Just freaking be yourself. But What is a sales myth that you would love to bust right here on this show?

April Palmer [00:17:36]:

Okay. Well, My very favorite sales myth that I love to buy, and it's, like, actually a business myth, is that you can't show up authentically, whatever that means for you. You can't say the word fuck because I do. And if y'all ever look at my LinkedIn profile, if I haven't scared you off yet, it's in my headline twice. Right? Like, It's fine. It's, like, it's professional. But I think if you show up as yourself and not who you think that your client wants you to be or who you think that your boss wants you to be. Then you're more likely to attract people who want to buy from you because they can feel your sincerity.

April Palmer [00:18:16]:

But here's another one, and this was, like, actually my original one because this is something that this. I would rather scrape my own nails down a chalkboard if we remember what those Mhmm. Are before whiteboards and, like, whatever. Or, like, have someone untie my belly button without anesthetic before I did this. I get I, like, sign up for newsletters all the time. I wanna see what other this is the curiosity. Right? Like, I sign up for newsletters. I read them.

April Palmer [00:18:45]:

I wanna know what they're teaching people. I wanna know what's happening in the sales world, in the business world. And one of the common themes that I get in my inbox all the time is how to take control of the sales call. Come on, y'all. Really? Do you think that your prospect wants you to roll up and be like, hey. I'm going to take control of this. You're going to talk about the things that I wanna talk about on the timeline that I wanna talk about them and the context that I wanna talk about them in. Like, people fucking hate that.

April Palmer [00:19:16]:

Do not walk into a sales call and think that you're going to take control of it. Like, you can build a framework for it. You can have goals for it. You can you can ask questions around what their goals are for all of those things. But, like, If you're showing up to take control of a sales call, all that means is that you are word vomiting at your client and they potential client. And they are tuning you out and thinking about who is a better solution for them. And guess what? Like, it's probably status quo. Like, it's it's It's way easier to just keep doing what you're doing even if it's painful than it is to have to work with somebody who shows up like a fucking asshat on a sales call.

Celeste Berke [00:19:58]:

And, you know, an an interesting this happened to us yesterday. We have an opportunity. They canceled, said what was what had happened, which is a death in the family. I reached out today saying, you know, had what other time because they proposed a future date. Can we nail on a date. And then they sent me back some information about what was going on with family. I was like, you know, my condolences. Obviously, that's most important.

Celeste Berke [00:20:24]:

I could have kept pushing it. Right? Like, We need to nail down a time. What date works for you? But I'm a human being and understand that when there's a death in the family, when something happens in a business, like, that's on their timeline. It's not on yours. Right? It yes. Business was on, but we're also human. So how do we honor that, And how do we wanna be treated? We forget that in the sales process. Like, if someone was doing that to us, like, fuck off.

Celeste Berke [00:20:49]:

I'm not gonna buy from you.

April Palmer [00:20:50]:

Oh my god. Yeah. We do it every day. I had, about a year and a half ago. Is that right? About a year and a half ago or so, I was buying a new car. And, like, I've been in the automotive industry, and And so I kind of know enough about it. Right? But, also, I'm very aware of what I'm looking for whenever I'm buying. I'm like most of your buyers.

April Palmer [00:21:14]:

I do hours, sometimes hundreds of hours of research on my own before I ever approach anyone to let them know that I'm looking to buy a thing. Right? Like, I'm becoming my own expert in this. And so the my number one buying criteria for a car. Number 1 was they had to offer concierge pickup and delivery with a loaner car to do my oil changes and other maintenance. Full stop. I work a lot. I travel a lot. I've got a lot of responsibilities, and the last thing I'm going to go do is go sit in a service area waiting room while somebody changes my oil.

April Palmer [00:21:54]:

Not gonna do it. And then I decided that I wanted a Subaru. Like, my my kids are getting ready to start driving and, like, all of it, which is hilarious because my oldest is 22, and she's had our learner's permit since 2018. And she still doesn't have her driver's license. She's never even taken the test. But so I I was like, okay. We want a Subaru. So I started calling Subaru dealerships, and I was like, hey.

April Palmer [00:22:20]:

So Here's the deal. I am specifically looking for 1 of these 2 models. I'd like to buy it in the next 2 weeks. My number one buying criteria. The thing that is going to make a decision for me is whether or not you offer lifetime concierge pickup and delivery of this car for service. And it was amazing, the responses that I got. Like, I called 5 dealerships and 4 of them, 4 men, who answered, and I told them. And they're like, well, we don't do that, but.

April Palmer [00:22:54]:

And I was like, oh, no. No. Unless you're saying but we will do it for you, and we'll put it in writing. That's my number one. But and they're like, Oh, but we can give you this much off and this and I'm like, you know what? Your $3,000 off of MSRP doesn't work for me because my time is way more valuable than that over the lifetime of this vehicle. The last 1 I called is a female owned dealership at Liza Borsch. She's amazing. And the woman I talked to said, yeah.

April Palmer [00:23:25]:

We can do that for you. And I said, will you put it in writing? And they said, yeah. We'll Put it we'll put it in there, and, like, you'll do it during the f and I process. We absolutely do it. And I was like, okay. And I literally drove out that night and bought a car. Full stop. And, like, y'all, we have to listen.

April Palmer [00:23:43]:

There's no that the those other salespeople tried to take control of the conversation, but the Fact of the matter is I knew what I wanted, and most of your clients do too. What they're really looking for you to do is help them justify it. Right? Like or add insights to something that they didn't they didn't think

Celeste Berke [00:24:03]:

about that there could be, like, a ripple effect to or something that's happening in the industry that you have insights over. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. But

April Palmer [00:24:11]:

But by the time you get in front of a buyer, They are pretty sure that they know what they want, and what they really want is for you to help them build an ROI. And you cannot build a business case. You Cannot build an ROI unless you have more information. And so, like, stop trying to close them and start trying to help them build the business case to do what they already want to do full circle.

Celeste Berke [00:24:37]:

I love this. And thank you so much for sharing your insights. I mean, we could We could probably talk for forever, so I know that this is just the beginning of many conversations. For individuals, we will obviously link your LinkedIn here. But tell us quickly, who are you most interested in connecting with. So if that individual is watching or they have a referral, they can pass it your way.

April Palmer [00:25:02]:

Yeah. Amazing. Okay. So From a group perspective, we help companies that are spending $500,000 or more a month on their Amazon Web Services costs and are looking to spend less or renegotiate their contract with AWS. Oftentimes, it's in the financial insurance, hospitality industry, like, you know, kind of big companies. But more than that and, like, really, truly, I just like cool people. Like, I love I actually teach how to LinkedIn. It's a class that I teach at VCU.

April Palmer [00:25:35]:

And I always tell my students, I'm like, you can go find people who are your ICP. And this is, like, This is actually shitty sales advice, so, like, don't take this as sales advice. But for me, this is good life advice. Like, find cool people. Cool people know other cool people, Who also know cool people, who know somebody in the industry who's like your ICP. I I just love awesome, like, raw, baller people. And I wanna get to know them, and I wanna consume their content on LinkedIn and, like, interact with those conversations because that's what gives me life every day while I sit here in my home office with, like, my weird random heads. Can we notice this? Like, I've got a pink head.

April Palmer [00:26:17]:

I've got there's there's Julius Caesar with pencils sticking out of his back. I've got this little chalk There's another head. Oh, there's a camel head.

Celeste Berke [00:26:25]:

From your travels. From your travels. I'm sure. They're little trinkets. They're little trinkets.

April Palmer [00:26:31]:

Yes. But for some reason, disembodied heads are my thing.

Celeste Berke [00:26:36]:

Not a problem. And, you know, here we are, 2 ladies wearing our hoodies Showing you that you can show up authentically. I know. Hoodies. You can. Although it's, like, 77 degrees here right now, so I probably have to d hoodie. Showing you that you can show up as your authentic self, bust those myths, but also lead with value, and then connect with really awesome people because they know awesome people. And I'm And we chatted earlier today.

Celeste Berke [00:27:01]:

You gave me some amazing advice. I'm gonna connect you with someone in my network, and that's how it is done. So I truly Appreciate you spending time with me today, and everybody can hear your story. Connect with April on LinkedIn, And we will see you next time.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:

Hello. Hello. This is Celeste. We are on the Sales Edge Podcast. I am with Randi. We've been chatting ahead of time, prerecording 30 minutes, and I'm blown away by the unique story. I can't wait for you to share it with our listeners here. So give us the low down on what who you are, what you're up to, and then we'll get into some questions.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:00:21]:

Well, thank you for having me, Celeste.

Celeste Berke [00:00:23]:

And we didn't we didn't plan the the red for those of you listening on audio. We're both wearing red today.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:00:30]:

Oh, great minds, think alike. So I think what I'd like to share with everyone is, You know, sales is a wonderful place to be, it's not a dirty word. And the other thing that I'd like to share is that We need to give people more chances in sales. And what I mean by that is I'm actually a clinical scientist Turned revenue growth leader. And everyone goes, science, sales? This is how I break it down. So As a scientist, I was trained, number 1, to fail. That's what running experiments do. You iterate to get the right outcome.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:01:10]:

Come. Well, think about sales in your go to market motion. What are you doing? You need to know your numbers, where you need to improve and you are Constantly iterating, whether it's, you know, ACV, you're having a larger contract value or whether it's, you know, getting more inbound or whether it's, You know, conversion rates. Whatever it is, that's what we do. So I was literally trained to fail and experiment, And that's exactly what I do as as a sales sales leader. And for anyone who's thinking, okay. That's all good and well, Randy, but how did you transition? I think it's also important, like I said, giving people a chance as I already said. And I was fortunate enough that as a leader over, you know, a science life sciences group, I had a network who's like, You know, you would be really good at actually selling.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:02:01]:

So I took a chance on myself, stepped down, Set my ego aside and said I need to learn, took an individual contributor role, which meant a lower title and less pay. And in that 1st year, I blew away the number that I was that I was given by two and a half times. And not only that, they asked me, okay, if you can do that on your own at a start up where no one taught you how to do what you just went out and did it. Can you teach a team? And I was like, okay, and so if I can do it, anyone can. And If you are, like, even considering, like, oh, I don't have the skills. You do have the skills. There are lots of transferable skills. And I know myself as a leader, when I'm looking at resumes, Verbal skills.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:02:46]:

And I know myself as a leader, when I'm looking at resumes, I'm not just looking at the piece of paper. I'm looking at the whole person because there's things that can be taught And those are things that you bring to the table, right, whether it's transferable, your attitude. And one of the biggest things in sales is being coachable. Right? So that's one of the the things that I just like to share about myself as scientist to revenue growth leader. And now I'm just a mad scientist Obsessing over the go to market motion.

Celeste Berke [00:03:14]:

Right. Obsessing over that data. So I think you touched on it a little bit that that sales edge. If If this was the only clip someone heard and we were asking, hey, Randy, what do you consider your sales edge aside from scientists to where you are now. How do you sum that up?

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:03:35]:

Well, this is gonna be a little contrarian. A lot of people think that your edge is, What tech tools do you have? If if you don't have tech tools in your bag, how are you gonna do it? It's not about the Tech tools. And it's about you as an individual and the skills that you have. So I'm always investing in myself. Here I am, been doing this for quite a while, but guess who's taking course after course why? It's not just for the material. It's for the cohorts and the other perspectives because I am the game changer in the conversation. If I can obsess about my customer, Learn to really understand what their pain points are. Talk like them.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:04:18]:

Add value. Because remember, no one cares about what you sell. Right? It's only if you're helping someone and someone wants to be seen, valued, heard in the conversation. That is that is the game changer is you. And as soon as you get that growth mindset and really focus on upskilling yourself, you will see Results, and you will go further than you thought you could. Look at me. I'm SVP of sales marketing customer success. I am living proof of this.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:04:46]:

I I just started investing myself. And, honestly, when I went into sales, I had no idea. Miller Heiman, MEDDIC, I was like, I know a lot of acronyms because I've been in health care and life sciences, but I don't know those. Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:05:01]:

And I and you and I were chatting a little bit earlier. So anybody who's entering sales right now is in such a different place. I mean, obviously, every generation can say this, right, as time goes, but The tech tools have skyrocketed, and you and I chatted about our our when we both entered the market. But I think It's safe to say when we were both in sales and started out, it was the grassroots effort. Like, tech was in this thing. And so you really are doubling down on what do I know about my prospective buyer? What language do they speak? Where can I find them? I I mean, this was back when there were, like, pagers, and there wasn't really I mean, email was just, like, just starting to come out, right, in the, like, to thousands. So we lived through a time when all you had was yourself. Right? You didn't have all this fancy tech to hide behind this tech stack.

Celeste Berke [00:06:00]:

And so taking a step back for our modern day sellers, if you strip all of that away, who are you at the core? How are you pouring into yourself so that you can align with your buyer and your customer, but also find that confidence in your own voice. You and I had talked about that, like finding your voice and not being afraid afraid to stand up. You had mentioned, and something I wanna share here when we talked off air, is you have all of these people that have worked for you or work with you who say, Randy, I would do anything to be on your team. What does that stem from?

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:06:37]:

I think it's because I'm a life because I'm a lifelong I call it serial learner. You know, I've I've checked my ego, and I always am so excited to share And not only invest in myself, but invest in my team and helping them succeed. I don't always have the best ideas. Right? So I I just surround myself with people who really want to learn and are coachable. And because I've invested them and seen them soar, like Like I said, it's one of the things I'm most proud of is that literally, you know, I still keep in touch with, you know, you know, the team members that I've had in the past. And, you know, the fact that they say, hey. If you had an open position or if you ask me to come work for you, I would work for you again. And I think it's a testament to leadership.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:07:27]:

And I consider leadership a privilege, which is which is another thing. And if you're not investing in your people, you know, What are you doing? Right? Like, I'm not a hands off leader, and I'm not saying I micromanage, But what I'm saying is I coach to the individual. What do you need to be successful? Everyone learns differently. Mhmm. And everyone needs help in a different state in a different way. But I'm also the person who has seen something in you and believes in you, And I will keep on you till you believe it in yourself.

Celeste Berke [00:08:02]:

Yeah. That's so awesome. And I love how you said, you know, leadership is a privilege. And I was looking at something yesterday, which I think I wrote back a a barf emoji on LinkedIn. It was a sales a sales leader who had posted this really cringey job, and all the sentences start with I. Like, I'm looking for this. If you're not willing to do this, this isn't for you because this is how I run the team, and it screamed, This is a very self I mean, who knows? A very selfish leader, and we're in a day and age when people will jump ship.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:08:39]:

Mhmm.

Celeste Berke [00:08:39]:

And something that Keeps the team and keeps people together really as this culture. And a lot of it's done around the leadership. Yeah. Leaders have to be investing in yourself as leaders. Right? My my father's 78. He has a $10,000,000 business. He constantly is like, Cece, I read this book and I was looking at this and constant that as you said, like, just that just consumer of knowledge and information because then we have this opportunity to not hoard information. And I think part of my issue with leadership growing up is growing up through through the ranks is they always felt threatened.

Celeste Berke [00:09:15]:

Like, maybe someone was gonna take their job or what. Like, who cares? Right? Isn't the point that we're building people up so that they can go on, just like we were talking about parenting, and go out into this world, usurp us in in a role or, you know, go on to do great things. Like, that is growth. And when it comes from a place of that, like, servant leadership but you also have to be a little bit of that parent where you're moving people along because they don't know what they don't know. So I appreciate you sharing about pouring into yourself. You also mentioned that you're writing a book. Tell us a little bit about that new chapter, so to speak.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:09:55]:

Yeah. So I I just want People, you know, my giveback is I want people to know, and it is geared more towards women just because that's My point of view that you can do anything. So I'm the queen of transition, you know, clinical scientists Mhmm. To, you know, this individual contributor. I kinda spent a little bit of area in in, you know, CX and and before I got into Into actual sales and running sales, marketing, customer success. But I want people to realize that everyone has it within them And, you know, anyone can can change at any time. And whether you've had success or failure, Your past does not define your future, and I'm I'm super excited just to share my journey and my story in the hopes That it inspires others to either, you know, take a leap of faith or just Ponder and be curious about what if and and giving them, you know, that space to think about what they want to do in their lives.

Celeste Berke [00:11:07]:

No. That's so wonderful. I'm I'm excited to have heard about the journey. It obviously inspires my own journey. And for Everybody out there, I think we're both in alignment. Like, everybody has a great story to tell. Everybody has that book, whether they write it or not, that is this, like running dialogue that people wanna hear. We are all inspired by others' journeys.

Celeste Berke [00:11:27]:

I'm definitely inspired hearing how You've gone from this, like, mad scientist, right, into your current your current role, and we were connected on LinkedIn. You were referred to me as someone I had to meet, someone I had to chat with because of this unique crossover. And it so aligns with early on in my career. I I wasn't in sales. I was in association management, event meeting management, and someone took a chance on me. I went through 7 interviews and landed a director of sales roll, and I couldn't even tell you what the industry was, any acronyms. Like, I I was flying blind, but somebody took that chance on me just like you took that chance on yourself and said, I'm gonna go for it, because I have this innate skill set, and now sharing with other people that journey and saying, hey, you can do it too. It might be tough.

Celeste Berke [00:12:20]:

You may fail forward, but it's your story to tell and and your journey. So I so appreciate you sharing time with us. Individuals can find you on LinkedIn. You're putting out some amazing content, and I love that we were connected by Riley. He's the master connector on LinkedIn.

Randi-Sue Deckard [00:12:37]:

He is. He is the e evangelist of of LinkedIn. We gotta give Riley a shout out for sure.

Celeste Berke [00:00:00]:

Hello. Hello. It's Celeste with Daniel on the Sales Edge podcast. I'm super excited for Daniel to introduce himself. We met at Saster and then saw each other a couple more times during that event, 1 at the lavender after party. Really impressed with Daniel and Aligned, so would love him to take an intro take a moment to introduce himself.

Daniel Ryan [00:00:27]:

Yeah. I'll take an introduction anytime, Celeste. So, hey, everyone. My name's Daniel. I am The founding account executive at Aligned. Before that, I mean, I've been in software sales for the last, like, almost 4 years And be in sales in general for 7. And, yeah, I really love talking all things sales sales stuff. I can't wait to share a couple of The things that I picked up or things that I have found not to

Celeste Berke [00:00:54]:

be true. Tell tell the listeners here, Aligned. Your your quick Synopsis of Aligned.

Daniel Ryan [00:01:02]:

My synopsis. Basically, if you're a salesperson as a complicated sales process, Meaning, either lots of, you know, collateral, lots of back and forth, mutual action plans, all that sort of stuff, and you find yourself, you know, Sending tons of emails, all that sort of fun stuff, and you're looking to make it a better experience for your buyer, that's what Align is for. It's to help the buyer Go internally. Make it much simpler for them to share the resources. Makes it better for you to coach them because you know who's looking at them, what they're looking at, All that fun stuff. So it's essentially a workplace for your champions and your reps to Yeah.

Celeste Berke [00:01:41]:

It's a great place for collaboration. And just today, I saw on LinkedIn, on the aligned page, an awesome video that you all shot about a buyer and a seller basically working together in a workspace. So if you want more information on that, go check out the aligned page as it's a very same concept. And I know for any of us who are in sales, we actually dove into this with our team the other day. We were looking at an email thread, and it was so many back and forth with a buyer just like, oh my gosh. There has to be a better way. So, Daniel, tell us You've been in the sales scope for a while. You're founding AE at Aligned.

Celeste Berke [00:02:23]:

What is your sales edge? What makes you unique?

Daniel Ryan [00:02:27]:

Yeah. I don't know if it's super unique to the whole world, but I think what I've been told repeatedly and what I'm, like, The best at is the relationship building part, which I have a pretty good knack at, you know, within 3 minutes, get someone's guard down, then we can get, you know, to the meet where, you know, where the relationship art doesn't matter as much because you're asking the tough questions or whatnot. What helps me get there so quickly Is yeah. I guess I guess my edge would be, like, the ability to get the atrocity

Celeste Berke [00:02:55]:

And where does that stem from? How did how did you, I guess, arrive at this place of having people at their guard

Daniel Ryan [00:03:02]:

Natural talent. Natural words.

Celeste Berke [00:03:04]:

The Aussie accent. That's what it is.

Daniel Ryan [00:03:08]:

That definitely helps. I've been told that a bunch of times from coworkers watching Gong calls, and they're like, there's no way I could get away with saying what you just said. So it's definitely having an accent has helped. But, I mean, on the eldest of 6, I grew up. My old man runs, like, a ministry that has a bunch of stuff on it. You know? So, like, I've been meeting with and building relationships with people literally, like, in my home for the my entire life. From when I was 6 is when he started doing that. So I think just Yeah.

Daniel Ryan [00:03:42]:

That's what like, that would be where where it comes from, you know, meeting people. And I think I just learned from a young age that, like, everyone's favorite Everyone's favorite topic is themselves. Being interested is being better than interesting, and that that just sort of comes pretty naturally to me. So I think that would be the That would be how

Celeste Berke [00:04:00]:

I got it. Interesting that you say that as I think back to being a a shy kid, kind of a I'm an introverted extrovert, but I look back and my parents entertained a lot. Right? So you were always around people, and the adults would ask kids questions. We were treated like adults. Right? We sit at to come sit at the table, the manners, the picking up all of that. And I and I think at an early age, you definitely learn how to converse with other people. And now I look at My husband has 2 kids, and I think like, oh gosh. We really didn't give them that opportunity.

Celeste Berke [00:04:35]:

Like, no wonder they're a little shy in front of in front of people so I can see that in the home, especially with having other siblings. Right? It's this give and take relationships, listening to what somebody says before you're responding. You know, what a cool foundation that has helped you now in the sales career.

Daniel Ryan [00:04:55]:

Yeah. It's really interesting you say that. So I there's a there's a local family that they have 6 girls. 3 of them watch my kids. They're babysitting. I remember talking to their mom and being like, every single one of your children, like, looks me in the eye on the conversation. Like, This is really impressive and whatever whatever. And I was telling my own mother this just on, like, a FaceTime, and she's just started laughing.

Daniel Ryan [00:05:18]:

And she's like, was like, what? He's like, you know every single person used to say that about you kids to heart. And I was like, I No. I didn't know that, but I guess you're right. I mean, I did look people in the eye and, you know, ask them about themselves or whatnot when I was, like, 10, which Now that I'm an adult talking to other 10 year olds, I'm like, this is weird. Like, why are you looking at me and asking how my day was? Like, 10 year old is supposed to say, You know, Paw Patrol and then Run Away. Probably not quite accurate for that show in that age. So I think and that came from all sorts of things. Like, Because my dad, you know, spoke on a stage in front of big groups of people, like, I think the 1st time I spoke to a group of a 100 people, I was 12.

Daniel Ryan [00:05:59]:

Yeah. Because, like, my folks would do a lot of, like, parenting courses, and so my old man's big thing is, like, you know, The proof's in the pudding. He's like, I can't stand up here and tell everyone, like, this is how you should parent if I'm not willing to show them my kids and what they're like. And so I was I think that really helped. I think for me, like, it's made it substantially easier. So And and a part of that is, again, you know, I've met tons of very, very successful people, people with big titles that have The exact same problems as me and everyone else. So I think that has really helped with my relationship building aspect is if I'm getting on a call with the CEO, Like, I know that they still get in fights with their kids and that they still have to remember to flush and wash their hands. Like, they're still a person, and it's not that big of a deal to to to chat with them.

Daniel Ryan [00:06:46]:

So I think that is probably what helps is that I just treat people like their people.

Celeste Berke [00:06:52]:

Right. We we strip away this Status that individuals have, and it's and it's tough when you get on calls with individuals who because they have more time in the seat. A lot of Sellers will tell me that. Right? I'm apprehensive. I actually was talking to my mentor, Rachel, who I know you've talked with today, and she was like, why haven't you reached out to this person? I'm like, didn't didn't you see? And she's like, come on. And so I had to flush it through. Like, wait a second. They have a problem I can solve.

Celeste Berke [00:07:20]:

They don't know what I know. I don't know what they know. It's like it's it's we make it more of a big deal, and I think that comes from the internal dialogue that We tell ourselves over and over again, and you're right. Starting in a young age, how do we immerse our own kids into

Daniel Ryan [00:07:39]:

out of us. Yeah. It's definitely it's definitely like, I think Anyone who is successful or a bigwig, you know say bigwig for those listening. I'm doing their quotations when I do. They I've found, in my experience now, they're, like, they're usually the ones that listen the most. Like, the ones that, I know everything. Don't usually make it that far. So I don't really yeah.

Daniel Ryan [00:08:09]:

I mean, I I I would definitely say, like, it's it's not something that you need to be afraid of. And At the end also, at the end of the day, you know, if they if they do say, you know, like, Celeste, you don't know what you're talking about, like, you're wrong. Just, you know, end the Zoom. Don't talk to everyone.

Celeste Berke [00:08:27]:

There's so many other fish in the sea. Right? And and we get so attached to an outcome or a perceived outcome that we maybe shoot ourselves in the foot before we start. I know I was talking with, somebody else, Blaze, who I met at Saster as well. He's with User Gems. And the other day, he told me he was talking with a CRO who I think had their arms crossed, and they looks Like, they were totally detached from the conversation, so he said he stopped on the Zoom just to check-in. Like, are are you tracking? Are you with me? And the person was appreciative of him stopping and was and he said, no. I'm I'm just trying to take it all in. Right? Like, my mind is spinning, And sometimes we take someone's title as they're not interested in what I have to say.

Celeste Berke [00:09:11]:

And as you That'd be interesting and be interested, and that should that should resolve itself. But here's to our young kids learning that skill as well now that we have it. And I know you mentioned the Paw Patrol. I will say we are deep, like, real deep in the Paw Patrol over here to the point where my daughter will only respond to Sky Puppy as her name, and we have to set some barriers. Like, at the dinner table, you're not sky puppy because puppies don't sit at the dinner table. So it's

Daniel Ryan [00:09:45]:

Just remember that no Problem is too big, and their pub's too small, Celeste.

Celeste Berke [00:09:51]:

That is perfect. I think we often say, like, a pub's gotta do what a pub's gotta do.

Daniel Ryan [00:09:58]:

And that's I have to say some of the things like, since my daughters have gone to school, some of the things that, like, they get taught is still So relevant to us today. Like, that's just reminded me. So both my kids have gone through the same, like, junior and senior kindergarten class with the same 2 teachers, and they have these, like, These sayings that they say, and they've now become like mantras in our house. And even when my kids were at school, I say it to myself. And one of them is no big deal banana peeled. And it's so like, what we're talking about is someone, like, says like, you know, if someone hangs up on you angrily from a cold call or if you have, like, a bad meeting Or if you don't close a deal or whatever, I just like you know, I'm like, what would I say to my kid if this if they had something unfortunate happen? And it's Diamond peel banana peel is a big

Celeste Berke [00:10:45]:

I love that. We're in the I need space. That's what she tells me, so I know that's coming from from she's in pre k, from school. Oh my god. A teacher, she needs space, but she's constantly, like, constantly telling me she needs space. Like, alright. Alright. Okay.

Celeste Berke [00:11:02]:

So love The Sales Edge. We go on and on about relationships. Oftentimes, when you're in sales you know, you've been in sales a while. It's not like this is your 1st rodeo. Obviously, you were recruited to be the 1st AE at Aligned. Oftentimes, we're given some, like, sales advice, but you gotta take it with a grain and salt or we hear something and it becomes this, like, myth. Is it true? Is it not? Do we believe it? Tell me. What is the sales myth you wanna bust, break, or share with us that the listeners might not know.

Daniel Ryan [00:11:39]:

Oh, I don't know if the listeners might not know, but one thing that I what I really bust is, like, taking all advice at face value. Like, it could even be like I've had examples of A sales leader at my own org, this is at a previous company, gave advice of, like, you should have asked more here, and you should have done more discovery diving into this. And I'm like, well, if you hit play instead of pausing, that's what I end up. So, like, Taking like, there's a there's a phrase that I learned from, again, my

Celeste Berke [00:12:12]:

my folks. My preschooler.

Daniel Ryan [00:12:15]:

No. This is from my parents, and it was well, they they sort of 2 phrases. My mom would always say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, meaning, like You know, which is a really weird saying when you try to break it down. But, basically, like, throw out the the dirty bathwater would keep the clean child or more what my dad would say is, You know, eat the meats, spit out the bones. So, like, when it comes to, you know, advice in the sales world, context And, you know, who's it coming from? Who do they sell to? Because that's a big one that I see a lot. I mean, especially on, like, the LinkedIn world, Someone will be like, this is how I close 85% of my deals. And then everyone's like, oh my gosh. This is amazing.

Daniel Ryan [00:12:56]:

It's like, okay. Who are they selling to? Because if I'm selling to sales leaders and I have a 90% open rate in emails, that is like, that's good. That's like, You know, if if if you have less than a 70% open rate selling to salespeople, you have a massive problem, like, on the technological side of landing and spam. Whereas if you're getting 40% open rates selling to, like, CSO and CTOs, like, that makes, like, a lot more sense because those people don't live in their email. They're not talking to our organizations. They are internal. They're using Slack. They're using Confluence.

Daniel Ryan [00:13:28]:

They're using, you know, all those other things. So if you're selling to, you know, x persona and someone's giving you advice based on their experience selling to y persona, you should probably ignore it, because they don't know who like, sales is, you know, sales is is Helping someone make a purchase. I don't think that, yeah, all that is fun advice on

Celeste Berke [00:13:56]:

And there's no there's no one way. Right?

Daniel Ryan [00:14:00]:

I a quick I definitely actually, what what I would love to dive in is I was having this conversation with the CRO of Amplemarket, and I, like, I think, And the more I'm in sales, the more I believe this to be true, is that, like, not everyone can sell to everyone else. Like, there are some people That like, I met this 1 guy, and he was the classic like, when my family pictures a salesperson, this is who they would think of. Like, slicked back hair, in your face, like, aggressive, could tell any story, center of attention. And I know for me personally and some of the people that I've worked for before, like, as sales leaders, they would never buy from this person. However, he's wildly successful. I know that there are other people where I go for more than relational, slightly more laid back, you know, trying to talk to them, whatever, and they need someone to take the reins and, like, Drive them to where they need to go. And, you know, there are people that he would that he could sell to that I would probably never be able to sell to Unless I change completely how I solve and vice versa. So that would be, I guess, a sales myth.

Daniel Ryan [00:15:11]:

That can be the one that

Celeste Berke [00:15:11]:

we landed on. And it's knowing that. Right? And especially as a Team as a team grows as a sales leader, I I think it's nice to have individuals who fit a puzzle piece. Like, Very early on when I was in sales, I'll use quotation marks. It was it was a lot of inbound, so it was, like, reactive sales. I started hiring people I liked because I was a brand new manager. I had no clue. No one ever taught me.

Celeste Berke [00:15:34]:

Hey. This is how you hire people. And then I slowly realized, woah. You need to hire people who excel in a skill set where I do not. Right? Like, how do we fit this puzzle piece together so that if you have a difficult customer or you're in a buying situation, right, you can all kind of weigh in or you can cherry pick and match up somebody on your team who best It fits that style. Obviously, as a 1 person show, you can't, but I think your culture is pretty, like, laid back. But not all cultures are like that. So, yeah, assessing your team, You can't have all of the, like, the Wolf of Wall Streets or if any of you are watching those real estate shows.

Celeste Berke [00:16:13]:

Right? It's like Everybody's that hustle grinder, and and and not everybody jibes with that. That's kind of a turnoff to some buyers.

Daniel Ryan [00:16:23]:

Yeah. I call it, like, the greasy used car salesman style. Like, that is again, it but then it depends. If you're a salesperson who's Selling used cars, you need to be probably a little bit more forward because reality is if someone's on your life, it's probably because they need a freaking car, so you need to be able to, like, you know, move the needle. Whereas if you're in, like, a consultative selling situation, you Oh, we don't need to, you know, jump down people's throats.

Celeste Berke [00:16:50]:

So Not at all. Yeah. And thank you so much for sharing that. I I I definitely take everything with a grain of salt. I I had a conversation earlier today about, like, holy crap. LinkedIn is just, like, full of gurus. Right? Like, everybody Slinging the sales advice, me, myself included. Some people go real deep.

Celeste Berke [00:17:08]:

Right? And it and you do have to pick and choose. Like, it It's all theory, and it's nice and tidbits that you can take from other people, but we internalize it of, like, I have to be like this person. Now you have to find a style that aligns with your buyers, and sometimes you have to go back. And as we were talking about before we hit record, like, Looking back in your CRM, looking at the deals that you've won, looking at the deals that you've lost, like, who were you selling into? Like, what was the difference between this role and this role? Like, Did you change your style? Did you change how you showed up? Did somebody else on your team take the reins? Like, it is so nuanced to you, yet everybody's like, how do I get the quick fix? Like, if I just implement this one thing, then everything is gonna change instead of saying, like, this is a journey that I'm on, And the way that I sell I mean, I'm 44 now. The way that I was at when I was 27 and got that 1st sales role, like, I'm wildly different. And I'm sure as you look back on your sales flubs and your wins and your opportunities, you can say the same thing about yourself.

Daniel Ryan [00:18:10]:

I'm wildly different from when I was a month ago, Celeste, let alone let alone a few years ago. I will say the one consistent was has been, like, The relationship thing that we talked about earlier. But, yeah, it's definitely I I would definitely say, like, don't you know, every time you read something new, some new piece of advice, Go. Yes. Like, this is it because, generally speaking, it might not be it.

Celeste Berke [00:18:35]:

Right. Not every opportunity to Get a franchise is going to be the one. I don't know if you get hit up with those, but it's a daily occurrence in my in my inbox. So many franchises, so few

Daniel Ryan [00:18:51]:

people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would just, like, As far as as far as I think people you know, like, If we go back to LinkedIn, people I have friends who are menaces on the phones, and they can They can, you know, book so many meetings so often, and they're like, yeah. It's so easy. This is my opener that I use. And, like, I just do this, and I just do that.

Daniel Ryan [00:19:19]:

And then people okay. I'll use that opener too. And then they'll go and try and do it, but they haven't put in the 10000 hours of reps To get to that nuanced place of, like, oh, I need to use this objection handling situation here. That's not actually a real objection. This is Or, you know what? This person isn't actually interested. Let's just, like, hang up and go next. Like and so, you know, reading a post or listening to 1 podcast and being like, I'm gonna change my wholesale around this just probably isn't isn't a good idea.

Celeste Berke [00:19:48]:

No. And as the pups say, a pup's gotta do what a pup's gotta do. So that is the advice to you all out there. Right? You do as we say in this household, I tell my husband all the time. I'm like, why do you, bro? Why do you? You do you?

Daniel Ryan [00:20:01]:

We do you.

Celeste Berke [00:20:01]:

Yeah. Because he he's an endurance athlete, so he's constantly talking about his workout schedule and, like, all the projects around the house. I'm like, you do you, Whatever. Like, whatever you're gonna do, and it's so applicable to sales. Right? It's it's just honing. It's putting in those dirty reps like we would at at the gym, on the snowboard. You're not gonna strap on that those boots or whatever you call them and go down the hill the 1st time and crush it. No.

Celeste Berke [00:20:28]:

You're gonna fall a whole of times. And year after year, you're gonna get better, and you're gonna get better, and you're gonna get better. So appreciate all of your insights and wisdom, Daniel. Check out Aligned. Definitely a cool team. The marketing is pretty legit too, and I think that your team is putting out some amazing content that's, like, real. Right? So

Daniel Ryan [00:20:49]:

We do our best. We try to look at, you know, what do people wanna hear rather than just look it out

Celeste Berke [00:20:54]:

to people. And entertaining. Yes.

Daniel Ryan [00:20:57]:

So Yes. Engine

Celeste Berke [00:20:59]:

Engine team. Yes. So check out Daniel. Connect with him because, again, he's a well connected guy. So if you connect with him, He's probably gonna pay it forward and connect to you elsewhere. So appreciate your time, Daniel. I will go ahead and end this. Thank you, listeners.