CHAOSScast

Hello and welcome to CHAOSScast Community podcast, where we share use cases and experiences with measuring and improving open source community health. Elevating conversations about metrics, analytics, and software from the Community Health Analytics Open Source Software, or short CHAOSS Project, to wherever you like to listen.

Today, we are super excited to have four guests who are here to highlight work that is happening in the CHAOSS Project in the Asia Pacific Region. We have Xiaoya Xia, Willem Jiang, King Gao, and Clement Li joining us. Today, we learn each of them do with the CHAOSS Project in the Asia Pacific Region. Also, we find out how it got started and what’s bringing people in. They go in depth explaining the value that CHAOSS metrics provides and share stories about different metrics they found valuable in how they understand project health and how they’re using metrics. Download this episode now to find out much more, and don’t forget to subscribe for free to this podcast and share this podcast with your friends and colleagues.

[00:01:23] Xiaoya, Willem, King, and Clement introduce themselves, and what they do with the CHAOSS Project.

[00:06:43] Georg wonders how this Asian Pacific Community got started around the CHAOSS Project, what were the drivers, and what’s bringing people in.

[00:13:55] The guests talk more about the value that CHAOSS metrics provides and what CHAOSS needs to do to make it even more valuable to them or in their use case.

[00:16:28] Georg wonders at what stage does which metric come in and what does it actually tell us about how the software development is going.

[00:20:12] A few stories are shared by the guests about metrics they found valuable in how they understand project health and how they’re using metrics.

[00:23:43] Xiaoya talks about a research topic that was in her lab about Open-source governance and why her mentor encouraged her to learn more about metrics in CHAOSS, and she mentions the GitHub Insight Report she posted on the blog posts. She also talks about the first working group she participated with most and where she learned what a community is.

[00:25:35] King shares his experience with metrics and the CHAOSS Community.

[00:27:37] Find out where you follow and connect with each of our guests on the internet.

Adds (Picks) of the week:

Panelist:

Guests:

Sponsor:

SustainOSS

Links:

Special Guests: Clement Li, King Gao, Willem Jiang, and Xiaoya Xia.

Support CHAOSScast

Hello and welcome to CHAOSScast Community podcast, where we share use cases and experiences with measuring and improving open source community health. Elevating conversations about metrics, analytics, and software from the Community Health Analytics Open Source Software, or short CHAOSS Project, to wherever you like to listen.

We are super excited to have as our guest, Josh Simmons, who is President of the Open Source Initiative and Ecosystem Strategy Lead at Tidelift. Today, we will be talking with Josh all about Open Source Foundations and the topic of “Hidden Infrastructure” which is very relevant to community health. We learn from Josh the major challenges he sees to open source foundations sustainability and foundational sustainability in corporations. Also, there is a big discussion with everyone as each of them share their opinions about the health of projects and foundations and how they would asses that. Download this episode now to find out much more, and don’t forget to subscribe for free to this podcast and share this podcast with your friends and colleagues.

[00:02:42] Josh explains the topic of “Hidden Infrastructure-The Foundations of Open Source.”

[00:05:24] Brian asks Josh what he sees as some of the major challenges that he sees to open source foundations sustainability.

[00:08:43] Daniel wonders where Josh sees the balance between growing and growing as a foundation or being more of a smaller foundation but really focused on providing those services to the projects.

[00:14:10] Josh goes more in depth about foundational sustainability in corporations.

[00:24:54] There is discussion with everyone about the health of projects and foundations and how you would assess that.

[00:35:35] Daniel brings up development tools, some might not be open source that are being used, and there might be changes in the service quality, and he asks Josh if this is an issue we should be aware of or take care of.

[00:38:42] Daniel tells us about how they analyzed software development projects at GrimoireLab, which is part of CHAOSS Project, and what happened.

[00:39:55] Find out where you can get in touch with Josh and follow him online.

Adds (Picks) of the week:

Panelists:

Guest:

Sponsor:

SustainOSS

Links:

CHAOSS

CHAOSS Project Twitter

CHAOSScast Podcast

[email protected]

Joshua Simmons Website

Josh Simmons Twitter

Josh Simmons Linkedin

Checklist for measuring the health of an open source project-Red Hat

GitHub Sponsors

Open Collective

Software Freedom Conservancy

The Apache Software Foundation

The Linux Foundation

Mozilla

Greg Kroah-Hartman bans University of Minnesota from Linux development for deliberately buggy patches (ZD Net article)

Mozilla-Firefox Browser

Django changes its governance (LWN.net article)

CHAOSS Types of Contributions

The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (Movie)

The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams

OSPO.Zone

Amanda Casari Twitter (for Project OCEAN + ACROSS)

Special Guest: Josh Simmons.

Support CHAOSScast

Hello and welcome to CHAOSScast Community podcast, where we share use cases and experiences with measuring and improving open source community health. Elevating conversations about metrics, analytics, and software from the Community Health Analytics Open Source Software, or short CHAOSS Project, to wherever you like to listen. Today, we are super excited to have as our guests, Vladimir Filkov and Likang Yin. Vladimir is a Professor of Computer Science at the University of California, Davis, as well as a Data Scientist and a Software Engineer. Likang is a third year PhD student at UC-Davis working with Professor Vladimir Filkov. They are joining us to talk about their research into forecasting sustainability of open source communities. Also, we learn about the challenges they faced, how they overcame them, how they are expanding their research to engage the community more, and what their goal is. Download this episode now to find out much more, and don’t forget to subscribe for free to this podcast and share this podcast with your friends and colleagues.

[00:02:01] Vladimir and Likang introduce themselves and tell us what they do.

[00:03:33] Vladimir tells us what his motivation was to look at open source sustainability.

[00:05:45] Sophia asks Vladimir how he thinks about the concept of sustainability since there are a lot of elements associated with that term. Sean asks if it’s binary in the sense that you get out of the incubator alive or you don’t. Vladimir talks about how the ASF is working with them.

[00:09:54] Vladimir and Likang talk about what their project covered and the key observations they had. We also find what they mean by Socio-technical and how they are thinking about what a Socio-technical system is.

[00:13:25] At CHAOSS, one thing they are talking about is recognizing all types of contributions, and Likang and Vladimir give their perspective on this and tell us about their mailing list. Also, learn what they found out and what’s predicting sustainability.

[00:16:17] Find out what LSTM means and what kind of modeling it is.

[00:20:20] Sean asks Vladimir to explain better what all this means to him as a Software Developer deciding on what open source project to contribute to or to him as a person trying to incubate a project and how these methods are helping so he can see it more clearly and explain it to his mom. Vladimir tells us the “Four Myths of Sustainability.”

[00:23:02] Sophia wants to know more about the assumptions of the people themselves and asks Vladimir if there’s a step before he starts finding his groups of people and if there’s any understanding of individual characteristics, motivation, or incentive that could also dictate the progression of that project.

[00:24:49] Sophia asks Vladimir how he normalizes for different kinds of governance models or if they’re all the same because they’re part of the incubator program. She also wonders how he’s addressing differences in size and whether or not it makes sense to model certain size groups of projects and how he’s handling that in Europe.

[00:29:25] Sean wonders when Vladimir thinks about groups, does he think about cognition and awareness of a group or does he think about other things.

[00:31:55] We learn about the challenges that Vladimir and Likang faced and how they overcame them. Also, we learn about their research and how they are expanding it to engage the community more, and what their goal is.

[00:40:13] Georg asks for Vladimir’s perspective on what he sees CHAOSS as a project providing now, where does he think CHAOSS should go in the future as a project, and what can they do to support their work.

[00:44:10] Find out where you can follow Vladimir and Likang online.

Value Adds (Picks) of the week:

Panelists:

Georg Link

Sophia Vargas

Sean Goggins

Guests:

Vladimir Filkov

Likang Yin

Sponsor:

SustainOSS

Links:

CHAOSS

CHAOSS Project Twitter

CHAOSScast Podcast

[email protected]

The Apache Software Foundation (ASF)

ApacheCon

Long short-term memory

Vladimir Filkov Twitter

[email protected]

Likang Yin Twitter

Likang Yin Linkedin

Sustainability Forecasting for Apache Incubator Projects by Likang Yin, Qi Xuan, Zhuangzhi Chen, and Vladimir Filkov

Latent social structure in open source projects

Lindsey Stirling

Wilco

Sleater-Kinney

Special Guests: Likang Yin and Vladimir Filkov.

Support CHAOSScast

Georg Link | Nicole Huesman

Terrence Chen

SustainOSS

Today, we are excited to have as our guest, Terrence Chen, Software Developer for over 15 years, and the sole creator of GitSense, which focuses on providing software development metrics that both leaders and developers can get behind. Terrence tells us all about GitSense and what led to the creation of it. We learn about Developers First Metrics and the three principles it’s based on, and we find out more about The Hierarchy of Data Needs pyramid as Terrence goes through his funding journey. Download this episode now to find out much more, and don’t forget to subscribe for free to this podcast and share this podcast with your friends and colleagues.

[00:02:08] Terrence shares his background and what led to the creation of GitSense.

[00:03:04] We learn what motivates Terrence to get up in the morning, how he thinks about metrics, and he tells us about Developers First Metrics and explains the three principles.

[00:08:09] Georg asks Terrence to talk more about the How and Why of the three principles, and the importance of context matters.

[00:14:50] Nicole asks Terrence how we measure the quality of contributions, even outside of code, since there are so many different skillsets and contributions coming in so many different forms.

[00:18:31] Georg asks Terrence if he has built other things in GitSense that he is super proud of that we can learn from, and hopefully get to see if other tools are being adopted as well. We learn more about a pyramid that became famous in the data science world called, The Hierarchy of Data Needs.

[00:24:48] Terrence explains more about the pyramid and the ability to clean and pre-process the data.

[00:26:20] Nicole asks Terrence to talk more about how he addresses not using data nefariously and ensuring that it is used for good and not guarding against not using it.

[00:35:27] Georg shares some thoughts on Terrence’s comments he made about creating a connections graph that shows open source contributions.

[00:37:14] Find out where you can connect with Terrence online.

[00:04:16] “Which is why I’m very much focused on what I call a Developer First Metrics.

Honestly, it’s based on three principles and I would love CHAOSS and others to adopt it. Developers First Metrics is pretty much can I answer quickly how and why? So, if you’re going to use metrics make sure you can explain how and why. The second aspect of developer metrics is, make sure it’s useful. Can a developer use developer metrics on a day-to-day basis, because it’s one thing to use it as organization, and it’s another thing to use it to judge developers, and it’s another thing to have a tool that actually, this is what I can use on a day-to-day basis as a developer. That’s the second principle. And the third principle honestly is transparency, like how easily can I verify that these numbers are correct.”

CHAOSS

Special Guest: Terrence Chen.

Support CHAOSScast

Georg Link | Nicole Huesman | Sean Goggins

Tim Lehnen | Matthew Tift

SustainOSS

Today, we are lucky to have two representatives from the Drupal community. Our two guests are Tim Lehnen, CTO of the Drupal Association, and Matthew Tift, Lead Engineer at Lullabot, who has been involved in the Drupal Project since 2010. They are here today to talk about who contributes to open source and how do we understand this in the Drupal Community. We also learn the meaning behind Tim and Matthew’s catchphrases, “Build a better picture of how open source gets built” and “Building a better understanding of corporate citizenship in open source.” Download this episode now to find out much more! Don’t forget to subscribe for free to this podcast and share this podcast with your friends and colleagues.

[00:02:13] Tim and Matthew introduce themselves and tell us what they do and how they got into the Drupal community.

[00:06:18] Tim and Matthew talk about what the Drupal community is doing to really be this community that it is today.

[00:13:14] Nicole wonders how Tim and Matthew go about putting a pulse on who’s contributing from a non-code perspective, and if there are ways that they surface these contributors either through reports or other ways. They talk about the mechanics of what they do.

[00:18:43] Tim talks about one of the key considerations of the initial design is wanting to avoid giving people too much paperwork, and Tim tells us the two catchphrases they came up.

[00:20:15] Matt talks about an analysis that he did with Dries Buytaert called, “Who sponsors Drupal development?”

[00:25:16] Tim talks about two points that were brought up by Matt and Nicole earlier about the value of understanding who gets paid to the work and the different roles and historically unnoticed roles in open source.

[00:28:24] We learn more about what we can do with the data when we capture it really well. Tim talks about the cool data they gathered and what they did with it, and the experiment they are trying out at the Drupal Association.

[00:38:43] Georg asks Tim how the issue tracker is being used and how has that collaboration shaping up there.

[00:49:16] Nicole asks if Tim and Matthew if they report out on the diversity of the Drupal community and if they’ve seen upticks or changes.

[00:52:24] Find out where you can follow Tim and Matthew and their work online. They also share advice for communities that want to adopt a system and resources or any starting points.

[00:17:25] “It’s organizing these different events, it’s writing a blog, it’s all of these different things that we do to, it’s the so what who cares, it’s the translating the lines of code into, you know at heart I’m a storyteller, so it’s really translating these lines of code into why is that important to our broader world.”

[00:19:48] “Building a better picture of how open source gets built” and “Building a better understanding of corporate citizenship in open source,” were two of our sort of like catch phrases.”

[00:31:57] “So if your organization sponsors a lot of people’s time you get to come up right on top of the list, you get more business and leads, you’re rewarded for sponsoring your developers to work on the project, and that encourages you to do it more.”

[00:38:08] “Nobody in our community wants people to feel bad, so we’re trying to tweak this. We’re trying to work on our algorithms, our marketplace page as a committee that could probably talk about that studying this.”

[00:42:12] “So, we have our contribution recognition committee which has access to what the true weights are. We don’t publish the exact numbers of those variables because gaming the system is something you have to look out for and manage and review periodically.”

[00:44:48] “And I think for me, there is still the sense that you can use these data in different kinds of ways and one of them is to sort of rank people. And I think in another way, one of the more interesting views is to kind of understand the diversity of the community, to try and understand what sort of initiatives are important to organizations, and what initiatives are important to say, volunteers.”

CHAOSS

Special Guests: Matthew Tift and Tim Lehnen.

Support CHAOSScast

Sean Goggins | Brian Proffitt | Elizabeth Barron

Ruth Suehle

SustainOSS

[00:01:16] Ruth tells us about herself and her background.

[00:03:56] Ruth fills us in on what Co.Lab is, what was involved with it, and what it was like taking it virtual. She also talks about some cool projects that they did.

[00:10:35] Sean wonders Ruth has been able to sustain the level of participation in Co.Lab since it’s gone virtual and she shares exciting news.

[00:12:11] We find out how much Co.Lab has grown in the past four years. She mentions SparkFun to purchase these fun kits.

[00:14:52] Brian remembers when the gaming and tech space gaming came out and Ruth talks about that curriculum that was part of the virtual. She mentions Red Hat Arcade and Game On text.

[00:21:33] Ruth shares more about the gaming community of practice and tells us about Open Jam.

[00:25:17] Ruth tells us other things they are keeping track of besides the number of attendees.

[00:27:11] Find out how you can get involved with Co.Lab as a volunteer. Ruth talks about how she hopes there’s a lot more of these experiences for kids in the future.

[00:30:24] Sean asks Ruth when the in-person events return, how quickly does she think of what she has accomplished in the virtual Co.Lab will be retained, or does she think that the virtual is now going to co-evolve alongside the in-person events.

CHAOSS

Special Guest: Ruth Suehle.

Support CHAOSScast

Georg Link | Venia Logan

Patrick Woods

SustainOSS

[00:02:18] Patrick tells us about himself and his journey of what got him to where he is today.

[00:08:00] We learn more about the foundations of The Orbit Model and what it looks like. Patrick explains the central components which are gravity, love, reach, and orbit level.

[00:13:05] Patrick goes over the other prior models that community managers have used and compares it to this orbit analogy.

[00:16:04] Venia asks Patrick to talk about how a person’s interaction over time and the measurement, how that love decays can tell you where they are in that path.

[00:23:21] Patrick fills us on the users of The Orbit Model and Georg wonders if he has some insights from the users of the Orbit Model, and if he’s seen any pitfalls or success stories.

[00:28:07] We learn from Patrick if he fosters conversations between communities and their community managers, and what kind of communities he sees The Orbit Model being applied to.

[00:33:07] Georg talks about community health and how the CHAOSS project uses the metrics to understand the health of our open source communities. He wonders if The Orbit Model looks at it that way or if there’s another way to look at it.

[00:35:26] Patrick tells us about when the Orbit company started and building a product around it, and about the future of Orbit.

[00:38:16] Find out all the different places you can find Patrick online.

CHAOSS

Special Guest: Patrick Woods.

Support CHAOSScast

Georg Link | Matt Snell | Ruth Ikegah | Matt Germonprez

Rachel Braun

SustainOSS

[00:02:50] Rachel and Celia tell us what they do at the Linux Foundation.

[00:04:15] We learn what the goal was of starting the DEI Badging Initiative from the CHAOSS perspective.

[00:07:21] Rachel and Celia tell us why it’s important for events to take part in the badging initiative.

[00:10:46] Find out about the process of getting a badge.

[00:13:38] Ruth and Rachel explain more about the reviewer process.

[00:15:52] Celia and Rachel explain the process of getting started and the steps they took until they got the badge.

[00:21:40] Matt wonders if there are DEI related items that Rachel and Celia are working on at the Linux Foundations that CHAOSS is not asking in the badging application process.

[00:25:42] Georg is curious if after going through the process and getting feedback, if there were things that Rachel and Celia took away from it, things they learned from, or things they would do different with their events because they went through the process.

[00:27:38] Find out where you can follow Celia and Rachel online.

CHAOSS

Special Guests: Celia Stamps and Rachel Braun.

Support CHAOSScast

Georg Link | Kate Stewart

Justin Rackliffe

SustainOSS

[00:02:17] Justin tells us what he does, his background, and his journey to where he is today.

[00:04:47] Georg wonders if Justin is the only one helping with all the different concerns around open source, and he also tells us what the structure is like that he works within.

[00:07:17] Kate wonders with the amount of automation happening behind the scenes to effectively make policy decisions if it is all still funneling more manually then Justin would like. Also, Justin explains how they want to leverage other people’s stuff and contributing back when they can.

[00:09:58] Justin talks about SBOM’s being a challenge in the industry.

[00:10:56] Kate explains what Software Bill of Materials (SBOM) and Software Package Data Exchange (SPDX) are.

[00:15:18] Justin tells us other data points and metrics he employs besides SBOM.

[00:19:08] Kate mentions one of the challenges is identity for software in the industry and matching it up to other sources of information and metrics, and she wonders if Justin finds it easy or hard to find that type of matching and if he’s looking at the National Vulnerability Database (NVD) as a set of risk metrics associated with a project whether it’s up to date as part of his signals.

[00:22:31] Justin explains the difference in viewpoints between CHAOSS metrics and Downstream metrics.

[00:25:14] Kate wonders how much some of the signals that the project sends about new releases and implicit end of life when you’ve got a new release coming out, and how much do people park on one release and not move it forward.

[00:27:37] Justin talks about how tooling needs to be visible and we learn what kind of signals are useful to him.

[00:31:17] We learn from Justin what he would like to see if Georg gave him a magic wand and he could wish for anything from the CHAOSS Project to support him.

[00:34:41] Find out where you can follow Justin online.

CHAOSS

Special Guest: Justin Rackliffe.

Support CHAOSScast

Georg Link | Dawn Foster | Matt Germonprez | Sophia Vargas | Elizabeth Barron

SustainOSS

[00:04:29] Georg dives right in to tell us why he wanted to start this podcast and the project, also, we learn the early goals he had with the podcast and the success the podcast has had in the last year. He mentions different episodes to check out.

[00:08:00] Dawn tells us what she’s appreciated about the CHAOSS podcast over the year.

[00:09:42] Dawn, Sophia, and Matt share the episode that was most interesting to them and what they learned from that episode.

[00:13:12] Elizabeth shares the impact she has seen with the podcast on the community as a whole, and Sarah shares thoughts as well about the podcast being able to highlight the diversity in which metrics are important and applicable.

[00:16:10] Georg talks about what he sees as the future of the podcast and the CHAOSS Community. Matt shares thoughts on the podcast as well.

[00:19:38] The panelists share how they see the CHAOSS Project evolving and where do they see it heading now from where we’ve come in the last four years.

[00:25:42] Dawn and Matt talk about how CHAOSS is trying to broaden the reach of work by moving into doing translations for both Chinese and Spanish.

[00:26:50] Georg recognizes everyone who is working behind the scenes to make this podcast possible.

CHAOSS

Support CHAOSScast