Coping

This guided meditation is from Spiritual Director Erika Clauson. It is a calming prayer intended to support you in your journey to wellness, especially as you experience fear and anxiety. Enjoy.

Erika: I will be guiding us through a calming prayer practice that can help us connect our mind, body, heart and soul to the God of love, so that as we experience God's perfect love, the control that our fears and anxieties have over us may lessen. 

Erika: Imagine our prayer is when we enter our imagination with Jesus and open ourselves up to whatever gift Jesus desires to offer us. I will invite you to imagine a specific scene, but please feel free to adapt it to whatever works best for you. 

Erika: As we begin, I invite you to focus on your breath. Notice your inhalation and your exhalation. Let yourself breathe in and out, naturally connecting with the Holy Spirit that is within you. Now you may close your eyes and imagine a favorite place of yours. 

Erika: A place where you feel at peace, where you feel safe. Your own sanctuary. It could be your bedroom, a place outdoors, a real place, or one that exists in your imagination. Enter that place in your imagination. 

Erika: In that place, you feel free. You feel comfort and warmth. You are there now, and you feel peace. You notice that there are two chairs, or perhaps a sofa. You sit down alone and in a comfortable position. 

Erika: You hear a knock at the door. Slowly you get up and go to open the door. You gaze into a tender and direct gaze of another. It is Jesus. Stay in this moment and notice how it feels to have Jesus in front of you right now. 

Erika: You look at Jesus and invite him to enter your safe place. You ask him to sit next to you. You notice that he is carrying a box. What does the box look like? You ask Jesus about the box. Jesus reminds you of a Bible verse that says give all your worries and cares to God for he cares about you. 

Erika: 1 Peter 5:7. And then Jesus invites you to put all your worries, fears and anxieties into the box. Watch as your worries and anxieties go into the box. How do you feel as you watch this? Are there any that want to come back out of the box? 

Erika: Are there any that you would like to talk to Jesus about? Take this next minute in silence and talk to Jesus about them. Listen to his response. When you are ready, imagine that Jesus closes the box and he is smiling. 

Erika: Even though we know that Jesus is always with us, this prayer time is coming to an end. And so imagine now that Jesus hugs you as he gets ready to leave. What would you ask Jesus for before he leaves? 

Erika: How would you say goodbye to each other as you leave the sanctuary in your imagination? Wiggle your toes and fingers and come back to this present moment. Slowly open your eyes and notice that you are here. 

Erika: How are you feeling now? If you have time, I encourage you to pause this recording and take five minutes. To journal, draw, color, or do whatever that may help you process or savor this time with Jesus. 

Erika: And as we conclude, receive this blessing from Jan Richardson's poem entitled beloved is Where We Begin. If you would enter into the wilderness, do not begin without a blessing. Do not leave without hearing who you are beloved, named by the one who has traveled this path before you. 

Erika: Do not go without letting it echo in your ears. And if you find it's hard to let it into your heart, do not despair. That is what this journey is for. I cannot promise this blessing will free you from danger, from fear, from hunger or thirst, from the scorching of sun or the fall of the night. 

Erika: But I can tell you that on this path there will be help. I can tell you that on this way there will be rest. I can tell you that you will know the strange graces that come to our aid only on a road such as this, that fly to meet us bearing comfort and strength, that come alongside us for no other cause than to lean themselves toward our ear and with their curious insistence, whisper our name. 

Erika: Beloved. Beloved. Beloved. Amen. 

Is Fear & Anxiety the same thing? What's the difference? Listen to this episode that explores the difference between the experience of fear vs. anxiety. We'll break down the myths associated that often keep us trapped in a prison of fear & anxiety. Enjoy.

Kevin: All right. Are you recording? Yeah. Before we get started, I'm just curious, what is one thing that you're feeling anxious about right now?

Kathy: This conversation.

Kevin: No. For all, like, in your life. Like, what are you thinking about that you're anxious about? 

Kathy: I think this week we are hit once again with the violence in our nation and in our local, in our state, and then also this week in our family. It touched our community, where the students were faced with a lockdown at school with a nearby suspect roaming around. It was a terrifying violence potential for violence situation. 

Kevin: I think that's a great way to start our episode today. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of “Coping”. Today we're talking about anxiety and the very real experience of anxiety. And when we think about anxiety, is it just us, or does everybody experience fear and anxiety in their life?

Kathy: No, I think that we're all struggling with it. There's just different. It's on a continuum and on a spectrum. And so that's what we're talking about today fear, anxiety, and how to cope. Let's get started. 

So as we begin our conversation today on fear and anxiety, I think it's important that we understand the relationship between the two. 

Kevin: Yeah, definitely. 

Kathy: Because the way that we work through these two are different, aren't they?

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. So I did a little bit of looking into the similarities and differences between anxiety and fear, and what's interesting is that we all know that fear and anxiety are words that we often use interchangeably, but they are not the same. They're different. The National Alliance on Mental Illness does a really good job of explaining the differences between the two. 

They say fear is a reaction to our environment, whereas anxiety is a reaction to our emotions. So in other words, while fear energizes the body for movement, the fight or flight response, anxiety actually pushes down all that energy and emotion in the hopes of not feeling it anymore. 

Kathy: Yeah, that's a really helpful explanation because I think that we often confuse the two. But either way, what I say when I'm working with students is that fear is like a prison. Max Lucado has this great quote that said, “The presence of anxiety is unavoidable, but the prison of anxiety is optional.” 

Because so many of us, at different moments and times and spaces, daily, weekly, monthly find ourselves in these prisons, we have to think about, like, what are the keys that can unlock us out of these prisons? 

Kevin: I love that analogy about fear being a prison. And so the experience of fear is something that we can't escape, but being locked in that anxiety is something that is a choice. So when we think about keys of unlocking this prison of fear, what are those keys? How do we find those keys? Like, what are they? 

Kathy: Well, I think it begins with lies or the myths surrounding fear and anxiety. Like, you just talked about the difference between the two, which is first and fundamentally most important to distinguish the two. But then we have a lot of myths about anxiety and fear. And if we understand the lies that we have believed, then that will help us unlock this prison that we are in. And so the first one that we often wrestle with is the idea that fear is negative and unhelpful. Fear is negative and unhelpful.

Kevin: It's not negative and unhelpful?

Kathy: Actually, it's not, because if we think about even the flight and fight response, it was supposed to show us that there's a trigger or warning sign, an indicator, per se, of, like, that something's not right. 

So the analogy I use is, like, if we hear a knock on the door, a rapid knock on the door right now, right away our senses will be like, something's not right. The problem with fear and anxiety is, for some of us, we're hearing the knock on the door when there's not a knock on the door. Right? So the fear in and of itself was an indicator, a warning sign. It wasn't meant to be something that was negative or unhelpful. It actually is a warning sign that something is and to help us prepare for what's up ahead. 

Kevin: So fear has always been a part of our survival instincts, something helpful and a positive thing to alert us of danger in our surroundings. 

Kathy: 100%. 

Kevin: But anxiety is the thing that causes us to fear everything, even when there's not danger around us. 

Kathy: Right. Like in your definition, you said that it's a reaction to a feeling or emotion, not an environmental. So, like, the knocking on the door. If you hear knocking or you're afraid that there may come a knocking on the door and there's no evidence to support that that is where it is that anxiety has now taken a foothold as opposed to fear. 

Kevin: Interesting. 

Kathy: And then the second myth that we often struggle with, some of you may out there be saying, like, like, I don't struggle with fear and anxiety. Like, I don't know what the big deal is. I have all these people so anxious panic attacks. Like, you know, you have friends or relatives and you say, well, I don't struggle with it. Well, the truth is, is that you may struggle with it, as some of us do in another way, because what I teach there is that fear and anxiety often disguises itself as procrastination or avoidance. 

Kevin: I know a lot of people like this who said that they don't struggle with anxiety. What's actually happening there? Why is their anxiety taking the form of something other than that anxious feeling that I know very well? 

Kathy: Well, I would say that it probably is just the coping strategy. Right. The unhealthy coping strategy is to not, oh, I'm going to have a panic attack, but oh, right. I'm not going to open my bills, I'm not going to look at the assignment. I'm not going to confront the person that was mean to me. I'm just going to put it off. 

Kevin: Denying those feelings completely numbing yourself out. That's anxiety too?

Kathy: Absolutely. Because it's an escape behavior. If you think about it, numbing is an escape response, and that's an unhealthy coping. We wish we could all just watch Netflix and be in our beds when bad things happen, or we don't want to deal with the impending doom. That is a very unhealthy coping strategy. 

Kevin: So you're saying it's like a version of flight where they're running away from the problem itself and just ignoring it. That that too, is a survival instinct. 

Kathy: Right. Flight and escape is the same.

Kevin: Interesting. 

Kathy: Yeah. And then I would say the last myth that we often struggle with is that experiencing fear is a sign of weakness. So that we don't want to seem afraid or be weak or be labeled as unable to face things, so that fear is automatically a sign of weakness. 

Kevin: Yeah. I would say for this one, for me, whenever I'm feeling anxious, I feel like I did something wrong, that somehow I messed up my well being or my balance in my life. When I'm feeling anxious, for me, I get like really bad headaches when I'm feeling anxious. So I feel like somehow I screwed something up and I allowed this anxiety to happen. And of course, that line of thinking can exasperate it, make it worse. 

Kathy: Right. And the truth is that facing our fears actually allows us more freedom and allows us to feel more empowered in our lives. And even if it's just one tiny step at a time. Baby steps of a fear. We just had a workshop and one of the things we encourage attendees is to first of all list their current fears and then also maybe just pick one of them and if they've been procrastinating to go after it, or if they have been afraid to talk with a trusted friend or counselor about a strategy to overcome that fear this week with one step. 

Kevin: So when I'm thinking about our listeners who may be experiencing anxiety the way that I do, or experiencing anxiety as procrastination or flight in different form, what advice do you have for them about facing their anxiety and dealing with it? How do you start that process? 

Kathy: Well, number one is what we're doing today is that we're acknowledging where we're at. So you would have to think about which one of these myths did you resonate with more than one is fine. Acknowledge where you're at, take the help and support to move forward. And number three would be absolutely 100% no, you're not alone. We're all in this together. We're all facing the highest levels of fear and anxiety that we have ever faced as a nation and country and in the world. 

Kevin: Yeah. And I think would even encourage knowing as I deal with my own anxiety sometimes the step before acknowledgment is mindfulness is taking time to slow down, to stop, to get in tune with yourself, to pay attention to the anxiety symptoms that you're having, you're experiencing. And then from that place, offer that affirmation that it's okay to feel anxious about this thing, that this is part of the human experience. But mindfulness is that really good first step to acknowledging what our really difficult experiences are. 

Kathy: Yeah. This reminds me of our Fear Not Retreat, where Erika Clawson, who is our spiritual director, presented a calming prayer practices workshop. And there she offered a guided meditation that was so popular that she was asked to rerecord it. And we're so happy to offer that meditation to you now. 

Kevin: Yeah. So stay tuned for that guided meditation that's going to be playing next. This is where we say goodbye. So until next time, whatever you may be coping with, blessings to you. 

Erika: I will be guiding us through a calming prayer practice that can help us connect our mind, body, heart and soul to the God of love. So that as we experience God's perfect love, the control that our fears and anxieties have over us may lessen. 

Erika: Imaginary prayer is when we enter our imagination with Jesus and open ourselves up to whatever gift Jesus desires to offer us. I will invite you to imagine a specific scene, but please feel free to adapt it to whatever works best for you. 

As we begin, I invite you to focus on your breath. Notice your inhalation and your exhalation. Let yourself breathe in and out, naturally connecting with the Holy Spirit that is within you. Now you may close your eyes and imagine a favorite place of yours. 

A place where you feel at peace, where you feel safe. Your own sanctuary. It could be your bedroom, a place outdoors, a real place, or one that exists in your imagination. Enter that place in your imagination. 

In that place, you feel free. You feel comfort and warmth. You are there now, and you feel peace. You notice that there are two chairs or perhaps a sofa. You sit down alone and in a comfortable position. 

You hear a knock at the door. Slowly, you get up and go to open the door. You gaze into a tender and direct gaze of another you. It is Jesus. Stay in this moment and notice how it feels to have Jesus in front of you right now. 

You look at Jesus and invite him to enter your safe place. You ask him to sit next to you. You notice that he is carrying a box. What does the box look like? You ask Jesus about the box. Jesus reminds you of a Bible verse that says give all your worries and cares to God for he cares about you. 1 Peter 5:7. And then Jesus invites you to put all your worries, fears and anxieties into the box. Watch as your worries and anxieties go into the box. How do you feel as you watch this? Are there any that want to come back out of the box? 

Are there any that you would like to talk to Jesus about? Take this next minute in silence and talk to Jesus about them. Listen to his response. When you are ready, imagine that Jesus closes the box and he is smiling to even though we know that Jesus is always with us, this prayer time is coming to an end. 

And so imagine now that Jesus hugs you as he gets ready to leave. What would you ask Jesus for before he leaves? How would you say goodbye to each other as you leave the sanctuary in your imagination? 

Wiggle your toes and fingers and come back to this present moment. Slowly open your eyes and notice that you are here. How are you feeling now? If you have time, I encourage you to pause this recording and take five minutes to journal, draw, color or do whatever that may help you process or savor this time with Jesus. 

And as we conclude, receive this blessing from Jan Richardson's poem entitled Beloved is where we begin.

If you would enter into the wilderness. Do not begin without a blessing. Do not leave without hearing who you are beloved, named by the one who has traveled this path before you. 

Do not go without letting it echo in your ears. And if you find it's hard to let it into your heart, do not despair. That is what this journey is for. I cannot promise this blessing will free you from danger, from fear, from hunger or thirst, from the scorching of sun or the fall of the night. 

But I can tell you that on this path there will be help. I can tell you that on this way there will be rest. I can tell you that you will know the strange graces that come to our aid only on a road such as this, that fly to meet us, bearing comfort and strength, that come alongside us for no other cause than to lean themselves toward our ear and with their curious insistence, whisper our name. 

Beloved. Beloved. Beloved. Amen. 

This bonus episode includes a conversation with Mary Taylor who accomplished the impressive goal of reading 1,000 books in retirement. We hope you enjoy her reflection on this amazing journey and the powerful lessons she learned along the way. Enjoy!

Kevin: Well, Mary, I'm so excited to speak with you today. Thank you for agreeing to come and talk with me a little bit. 

Mary: My pleasure. 

Kevin: So I'm excited to hear a little bit more about this goal that you set for yourself that I have heard you've just recently accomplished.  Tell me a little bit about the goal and what gave you the idea of setting this goal? 

Mary: I had taught school for almost 40 years and retired in June of four. And people would say, are you going to travel? And I said, do I have to go someplace? And it was like, what do I want to do? In my and what I had in mind was a calm, peaceful existence. When I thought about what would be really calm and I don't live a real exciting life.  My house is pretty calm already, but I was working and go, I have a lot of different dress, so I was going, going and doing things. So I said just being home was a good book and. That's what I wanted to do. But I made a couple of goals that were more formal. I said, you know, I live just three or 4 miles from the beach. I want to go every week down the beach, maybe take my and go to the beach every week. And I think I'll go out to lunch once a week. I rarely do that, those things. I thought it sounds like what other people would do, I guess. But then I don't even know if I was talking to anybody or just myself. 

Mary: But without any discussion, I said, I want to read 1000 books in my retirement. Just like that. And it wasn't like, oh, no, that's crazy. No, I had read, but I have never had the time to read long periods. And to me, the thought of just being in my home, my feet up and a good book, I just thought it sounded wonderful. And so that's what I started doing is reading. I didn't read nonstop, but I did read more than I'd ever read before. And time, it just kept adding up. Now, what I did, because I was talking to a friend the other day and he said, I bet I've read over 1000 books. I said, I'm sure you had. Did you ever keep track of? Never thought to do that. Well, I did. So I had this little book, and so every book from the Sweet Thursday by John Steinbeck was the first. Every one of them had the author of the book and the date. 

Mary: One reason is I was probably forget if I'd read them or not. And it just started adding up. Now, if I had known it was really going to be so serious thing for me, I would have given myself a little bit more room for more detail, like a plus or minus or even a synopsis. That would have been nice. But I kept track, and it ended up being 40 pages of 25 book books a page. What? I've been thinking, okay, what have I read? What is contained in those thousand books? So I just started writing down. I started going through those lists, and I'm not finished at all. But like foreign books or humor or celebrities, tons of autobiographies and biographies, historical pages of pages, social like trans kids. 

Mary: Boy Erased, In Our Hearts We Were Giants. And then I made a list of my favorite authors because they're about 15 out of all of those writers that I consider just near genius. Not everyone, but few of them are just so brilliant. And a couple of them, especially when I open their book, I get this I'm home feeling. It's just so close to me what they say. And I can truly get lost in reading these wonderful books that people can come up with. Now, let me tell you something. When I was a student, teacher in the wrote a little poem for my kids in the third grade, although I always taught kids with special needs after that, but. I wrote this little poem. 

Mary: Fly a jet, sail, you bet. Wrestle a lion if you choose. Just pick up a book and take a good look. These things can happen to you. Now, I wrote that to inspire them. But here it is, 2023. It has inspired me through the years, that little thing. 

Mary: Yeah. You can be all over the world without going. You can learn about different cultures. And I love to read about Asian authors, Irish authors, a lot of British writers, people who are much older than me, people who are much younger than me, all in between. People who don't believe the way I believe. And it expands my awareness of this world. And I'm 80 years old now, so I'm looking back and realizing that there's so much to learn. And now it seems so little time. I'm really grateful to God that he put this in my heart. And I believe he did. Because I didn't go to the beach every week. I didn't go out to eat with a friend, because that wasn't really what I wanted to do. What I wanted to do was explore the world. And that's what I did in my own home, through written words. And because I had taught reading so long and I say this once in a while, I just hope the kids that I taught love to read the way I do, because I know what it does for me. There's just so much to tell.

Mary: That's so amazing. Mary, I really love that idea of reading making you feel at home, but also being the thing that helps you transcend your home to explore the world through literature. Tell me a little bit about well, first, how long did it take you to accomplish this goal of reading 1000 books? 

Mary: Well, I started reading June of as soon as I retired three. And then I have just read through the years and my son was figuring it out. He said, Well, mom, you read about a book a week. It kind of being that way. But in truth, some weeks I might read three. It's all according to the size and to the interest level. Now, the biggest book I read other than the Bible, and I read the Bible through three times, and the Bible is a big book, 66 books, but I only counted as one, and that was three times. But the biggest book, and one of the most impactful books that I ever read was Andersonville. It kind of shook me to my core as a Southern woman, or was for a long time. Now I'm a Southern California woman, but during the Civil War, it just really taught me a lot I'd never been taught. And so my son had given it to me, telling me what a great book it was. And it started a new interest in me, civil War veteran, also in very interested in World War II because that's when I was born in 42. And so I've read a lot of books about women in the military, especially fascinated with the women pilots. They were given very little credit, but. Incredible things. There's one. The Air Transport auxiliary. I'd never heard of it. Those women and some men, but mostly women, would fly wherever they needed an airplane. If they had it there, they would fly that airplane to get it where it was needed. Some lost their lives doing it. They sacrificed so much. I read about the nurses who were in the working for the government, these Auxiliary Transport Auxiliary. I got it wrong. But anyway, they're called Attigirls Attigirls because kind of a fun thing. 

Mary: And then I read about the world wars, the Resistance, the people in the Resistance who put their lives on the line to see what was going on, what the enemy was up to, and what they could do to change that and direct it. It's just some marvelous reading, so informative and educational to me, because I know that at my age, I think I've had a decent education. I have my master's degree. I've been a student through the years. But there's a lot I didn't know about something that I feel that everyone should know. Right. We just don't know these things. The history. The true history. Sure. And so it's kind of like being in a room full of desserts. You just go, what am I going to enjoy today? So reading is that it brings it to you, and you have to have an eight year old granddaughter. And when I got toward the end of the goal, the last ten or something, I was at their house and I was saying. Give me a book. Bring me a book to read. I want to read the book. And I said, I'm only, like, ten away. She said, Grammy, you said you did not read for the numbers. She never forgets. I said you are right. I haven't through the years, I haven't read so that I could put down a number. But I said, now that I'm so close, I just want to enjoy every book to the max. Wow. So one of the things I did when I got closer, closer, I went back to some of my favorite books in the past, pulled them out and reread them. And they count as a book because they're still a book. I don't skip through it or scan it. I skim it through it. I read it. So some of my favorite books got reread. And I don't know, it's just a great experience. 

Mary: And someone said to me, you can just now make them smaller, increments, like maybe 100 at a time. I said, I don't need to set anything else. I have a comp now. I've already read seven more books, and I just put it my book is 1000 plus, and I'm adding to it. But I say, no pressure, just pleasure. So that's what I'm getting out of this now, and I'm really thankful. There's so many inspirational books. I've read some of the leaders of our belief system from way back when, and they may sound stilted, and they may not sound the language you use today as much, but the truth of the word is in there. Who knows about Smith Wigglesworth, Oswald Chambers, Hudson Taylor? Some of these CS. Lewis, of course. Miles Monroe. So many people. That I have a list of all of these different ones and more to go. I just started this last night looking through this and I have all of this already, what I have read and I read a lot about animals, specifically dogs, because I had a couple of dogs I love very much and I've read, like I said, very inspirational of read Bible three times. It actually should be four because I read the book, I think the book and it's the Bible, but in like conversational. I don't know how you describe that, but it was very good too. But I don't know, I guess it reaffirms that I did something well in this life. Those children who had such problems learning, if I actually helped give them the gift of reading, their world would be clearer and they would have fly a jet, wrestle alliance, whatever books then I feel pretty good. That is the accomplishment. And I don't even call the experiment just what I did with my life. Some people imagine I just read all that long. What I do is I turn the TV off at 09:00 and reading time so I was getting really 12:00 was not unusual. 

Mary: A lot of nights that I would read and then I said, all right, you need to cut back on the time. But it just dedicated time to reading. I think that is when you set a goal, you have to have some way of accomplishing it right. It's not going to just do itself and. But I didn't sit down and go, how many books do I have to read this week to make it? It just worked out, right? It'd be about 50 at a time. And then I say, oh, well, look at that. I'd tell my son, hey, I've read 400 books. Way to go, mom. And then I told him, my dad said, Well, I know through the years I've been telling you how many books I've read. And I said that probably was boring. He said, no, I'm really proud of you. Not necessarily something to be proud of. It's kind of selfish in one way and yet in another way it's not because I think it's made me a better person. 

Mary: Yeah, it opens your mind up to the world and other people and experiences things that you wouldn't have learned otherwise. I believe God works through whatever means that available to us and to him. I feel good about it. I'll just say that feel like I wasted time. I explored the world through books anyway. And I have two questions that you basically already began to answer. 

Mary: So I'm going to use part of your answer already to these questions. But if you want to fill in any additional information, the first question is this what are some of the highlights of all of these books that you've read over the years? What are some of the high points of your experience with reading 1000 books?

Mary: I don't think it was necessarily the amount of the number of books that was not really it. It was the individual books that I cross that would speak to me and inform me, educate me, entertain me. I love humor. Some of these books I laugh out loud and. For you. It's like getting an internal massage when you anyway, love that. And a lot of I found out through all these autobiographies and biographies that a lot of the people I thought I admired an awful lot read their lives from them when they talk. Of course they're not writers. But at the same time they kind of spilled everything. And I came with some of them thinking, I don't believe we'd be friends. I don't admire you as much as I thought I did. People really can open up. And I think that's good too, that we have more real expectation of people and not hold it to such a high standard that they're just people like us. But then again, some of them really showed interest in humanity and social works. Right now I'm reading it's supposed to be the definitive book of Abraham Lincoln long and it's taking me a while to read it. But it is so enlightening from Lincoln. He'd been gone a long time. I thought I knew him. 

Mary: I didn't know him. He was the very man that I thought. And then the autobiography of Eleanor Roosevelt I have admired through the years for her work with civil rights and women's rights and knowing the large struggles. And I've read other books by her and one of them is called this World. And I'm shaking her head. This world. And she's gone a while, so she should see it now. But anyway, I think it's the individual books and like I said, discovering writers like the Irish writer Mave Benchy Love. Mave Benchy. She passed a few years ago, and it hurt me because I said, oh, no, she has more stories to tell, and just some of those individual people like that. And I'm sure later I'll think of things that I'm not thinking of to tell you right now. 

Mary: Excellent. And then you also were sharing about how you would shut off the TV at 09:00 that would help carve out the space and time for you to read. So based on that answer, I wonder this is my question: What are some of the lessons that you learned throughout this journey that helped you to keep this goal that you set for yourself? What are some of the practices, some of the habits that you created that helped you to accomplish this goal? 

Mary: Well, I think there were times that I didn't read as much because I got distracted in that time that I'd set aside, I started playing backgammon, just obsessed. Loved it. Loved it. And I realized it was taking, and I had to stop because I realized it was consuming my time, and I didn't feel I was getting back from it. And so I had to stick with it and mainly always remember to record the book. And I also reviewed probably by now, probably around 400 books, so Amazon.com. So after I would read a book, I would take time right then, most of the time, and think about how did I like that book? What could I suggest for someone else, whether I would encourage them to read it? What were the main things? If I really loved it, how can I say that to other people? And. Almost the same number of people have said that it helped them. So I did that. And I think that helped me too, because it was an extension of the reading. So for me it was multiple. It was the taking time, letting down. This is time that I'm going to read. Not like, oh no, I have to read. That was never the case. I never that was not it was a pleasure to read. So I think, keeping in mind enjoy the journey. Enjoy the journey. When I look at these books, it amazes me. Some of these books that I've read so long ago, and they're terrific, but some of them I don't really know. And if I had to tell you what it was about, I'd have to look at the book or read. There are too many of them. But at the same time, when I read them, I go, oh yeah, I remember that. I think enjoy what you're doing. 

Mary: If it is a real pain, man, now, right now I'm trying to get back into doing some exercise more. I guess these are goals now that I haven't I've always everybody wants to lose weight, everybody wants to exercise more. And so I've tried to get into more of a routine. And I think routine helps a lot. And that was twelve or eleven. That was a routine I got into. And by going, I was going to turn the TV off at eleven. At 09:00 I was set to VCR. So I knew that I don't have to see it first time around. This is the joy of this. Because when I was young and I went to a class and I said, someday you'll be able to. Go forward and not have to watch the commercials. And I go, that we would be able to do, and you'll be able to buy movies on there. What, am I going to put money in my TV? We have such an advantage now. And someone might wonder why I didn't go to the library more. I guess because I didn't want to have to go back and forth so much. And just quickly here, I started buying a lot of books. A lot of the books I've read were from Goodwill. I bought Hardback books, about 18 I'm putting the black there on my bookshelf. About 18 Books of John Grisham. Hardback books. I was trying to read every one of his, and they were so cheap, but they doubled their price. So they doubled their price. I go, well, maybe I need to look around. So I'm finding different ways to get books. Friends belong to a book club, so she gave me the current books, which some of them I didn't care for, but a lot of them were really good because books I've read through BookBub on kindle on BookBub are years old, so they've been on the bestseller list. I know how many people have given them 5000 stars and all that. It still costs, but the price is so much smaller. I'm I'll pay $2 for one. A lot of them are a dollar, and some they give you free, or if I'm really anxious, I'll pay a little more. 

Mary: But when so many, it adds up. And there are books, free books, but. It's all according to what you want. And that's something, too, in setting a goal. What do you want to get out of it? If you're just reading, like my granddaughter said, to put down a number, don't do it. It's not worth it because you're putting your time and your mind. Some of the books I would start and I'd go, Life's too short to read this.

Mary: Yeah. I was going to ask you, were there books that you started that you decided to stop reading? 

Mary: Just stopped. Now, one of them I actually reviewed and said, this is more than one, but one I read recent, I was so shocked when I opened it and saw some I'm not comfortable with the F word flying around all over a page. I'm just not -- I was so shocked at this young woman doing this that I thought, no. And so the review I gave on Amazon.com and I don't know if they put it on, I hadn't checked, was not for me. This may be for some people, but not for me. I can't take that kind of language, but I would like to see what the author could do without that component. But again, I added, I'm not saying it verbatim, but that I know there's a lot of people that she was writing to that are perfectly fine with the language she said, their culture, but it's not mine. 

Mary: As a Christian. I don't talk like that. I don't want to read words that are going to pop up in my head. I figure if they pop up here, they're going to pop out here. This would be destroyed. I don't want it. And some were just boring. One was so goofy that I just go, oh, I know this is written for a teenage boy. This cannot be written for an eighty year old woman. 

Mary: So if it's reading books you're after. Know what you like and then go for that, I guess in any like, why didn't I go to the ocean once a week? Why didn't I go out to lunch last time? Those were things I thought I would like to do. But there were reasons. Obviously I didn't do it. I mean, I'm so close. I used to go to the ocean and draw and watercolor and everything. And I love having the ocean there. There's something about that. I don't have to see it. I know it's there. I'm pointing to the now and I don't know. See, that's something I may consider. Why? Because I'm evaluating now I've reached that goal. I'm still reading, but I figure there's a lot more I can learn about myself from my books, my reactions to the book. So I think if you can set a goal that's not complete in itself, but that it has branches from it that will lead you in other areas, that that's a good thing, right? And it can be a much greater thing than just accomplishing that single thing. 

Kevin: And so, last question. You've again, already sort of answered this, but I'll leave it open for you to share anything else that you're wanting to share. The topic of this next podcast is focused on this idea of setting resolutions and goals, as we have a tradition of doing every New Year. What advice do you have for our listeners who may be setting goals for this next year? What advice do you have for them about setting and keeping the goals that they make?

Mary: Well, don't buy a big exercise size machine. It's only going to hold your clothes. Make them realistic. Make them something that you can see that it's attainable. Don't make it so hard for yourself underscored a little bit. If you really want to reach 100 or something, try 50 and then later you reach up to 60. Maybe go for 70 and then try. But don't make it so hard when know yourself. Don't pressure yourself because someone else is going to know. God's going to know, you're going to know. But just don't try to please other people through your goals. Very personal thing. I don't think you should write too many goals to keep it simple. Two or three probably enough, but make meaningful, attainable and hopefully pleasurable. But it's something you can look back on and say, yeah, I used to not do that. 

Mary: Now I kind of like working out. I did not ever like working out because I go and I walk around the block with my neighbor. I never drew that. Yet I've gotten to know her better than I ever have. So if you can get something out of it that adds to it, don't make it. We have enough pressure on ourselves. We have to give ourselves some slack. Take good care of yourself mentally, socially, emotionally. And when you go around the block, if you don't have that neighbor with you and sometimes if you do, you can talk to God. And that is really wonderful thing to do. And just real quickly, I may have told you this sometime in my life, but I was walking one day down my neighborhood, in my neighborhood, and I said, can't talk out loud. You do that, you get older. I said, you say we should have a mission field. Where's my mission field? My mind or impressed on my heart was "right here". Where? The Lord led me into being a neighborhood watch person. 

Mary: I got to know all those people up and down when my little dog came along. I got to know all dog walkers. And suddenly I knew my mission field and I could send out emails to everybody and encourage them and give them hope and be be someone they could turn to and give them good, solid information they could use in time of need. So I really believe in prayer and asking God to lead you. This is the most recent thing has happened to me, I guess. And I have to tell you, New Year's Eve, there were about six or seven of us, family members, my son's in laws, really, and just young people. And we went around the group asking what did we want to accomplish? And they're young and someone, I'm going to study harder, I'm going to do this, or they all had theirs, of course. They looked at me and said, Grammy, how about you? And kind of tongue in cheek, I said, I'm going to tell as many people as I can that I've read 1000 books. You called me and asked, Kathy, "could you talk about your thousand books?" And I go lord, you work fast. 

Kevin: That's right. We heard your prayer. That's right. That's something. We're so proud of you, Mary, and we love you so much and we're celebrating you and looking forward to hearing more about your reflection on this amazing accomplishment. 

Mary: Thank you, Kevin. I love you all too. 

New Year's Resolutions are all the rage. But when it comes down to it, how do we actually keep the resolutions we make? Listen to this New Year's episode where we offer a remedy to ensure successful resolutions. Enjoy!

Kevin: Happy New Year, everyone.

Kathy: Yes. Happy New Year.

Kevin: We're so excited to start this New Year 2023 and be here on this podcast with all of you listening in. It's the New Year and things are feeling fresh. We're thinking about all the things that are in store this next year in our family with this podcast. 

Kathy: That's what the new year is about.

Kevin: Yeah, I know for a lot of people, it's about, um, looking back at what has happened and wanting to start anew or pick up things they didn't complete in the last year. And, of course, the dreaded New Year's resolutions if you are not a New Year's resolution fan. 

Kevin: That's right. And that's exactly what our topic is about today. Talking about making, and perhaps more importantly, keeping those New Year's resolutions that we make year after year. So let's get started.

Kevin: So, for as long as I've known you, Kathy, you've always looked forward to the New Year. You look at it as something to look forward to, especially when times are tough. Why is that? 

Kathy: Well, I think it's because it's just the natural turning over the new chapter of the year. And I think one of my favorite quotes is from Brad Paisley. He says, “tomorrow is the first blank page of a 365 page book. Write a good one.”

Kevin: Yeah, that's so good. I actually hadn't heard this quote before you shared it with me when we're talking about this episode. I love it because I think it's so true that the New year is like a blank page. And so no wonder the New year feels both exciting and daunting. Think about early January, and the feeling is always excitement, thinking about all the possibilities of the New Year. I feel determined to make changes in my life, so I set these new resolutions. But then over time, I don't know, life happens. 

Kathy: And I think that you're not alone. Statistics show that 81% of resolutions fail. Sometimes it's as high as 91%. And then by February, we know that most of the resolutions have petered out. 

Kevin: Yeah. Why is that? Do you have any insights to why that happens, why so many people aren't able to keep to their New Year's resolutions? 

Kathy: Yeah, I think that there are three things that we can think about. I've seen this anecdotally with students, and in my own life, there are three P's, and these are the easy way to remember. The first is painful patterns. And so what often happens is we get into ruts, and we do the same things over and over, and a lot of times incorrectly or dysfunctionally. 

And if we don't identify what the pattern is as to why, we fill in the blank. Can't have a successful relationship, lose weight, get a job, whatever the case may be. That's over and over. Then we have to identify first the painful pattern. And if you aren't certain what that looks like, you could get help from a professional or a wise mentor, and you could just say, hey, what do you see in my life that's a pattern over and over. That's not it working for me? 

And so that that's the first P, and then the second one is another reason why resolutions fail is partners. It is the lack of partnership that happens. So we know. And this is scientifically proven that if you are more likely to get help with a resolution, with a problem and issue, you will more likely to succeed. So the suggestion of course, is to partner with a friend. Let's say you want to start walking or exercising or even partner with someone that can help you, a coach or therapist, that would more likely help you. 

And then the third P is the planning aspect. So we know that in the new year, everybody gets some people get a new planner, you wipe those calendars clean. We must plan. And failure to plan is failure to follow through with a resolution. 

One of my favorite verses is Proverbs 16:3: “Commit your plans to the Lord and they will succeed.” A lot of people say, well, I've been praying and praying, praying, and I often say, oh well, what's your plan? And they say, oh, I hadn't thought about that. So painful patterns, partners and planning will go a long way towards being more successful with what you seek out in the new year. 

Kevin: Wow. Yeah, that's really helpful and clear. I think for me, as I think about those three P's, planning is what I struggle with most. I feel like I have a clear idea of what my goal is and what I want to accomplish in the beginning of the new year. But then I don't really know exactly how to accomplish that goal or how to go about doing it exactly. The action steps, what do I do, how do I actually accomplish this goal? 

Kathy: Sure. And having the accountability if you plan with someone also helps with that. Not just formulating, but the accountability to the plan. Right.

Kevin: Looking at these three, which do you feel like you struggle with most? 

Kathy: So obviously I'm helping people plan and identify painful patterns. So the partnership would be it. As a helper too, on the enneagram. It's been challenging, I would say, to find partners that can actually help me in the work that I do. That's why I'm grateful for you. You're a great partner. But there are few and far between partners. Partners and partnerships. 

Kevin: Yeah, I totally understand that it is hard. 

Kathy: Yeah, absolutely. 

Kevin: So what would you say is one tip for setting a successful New Year's resolution? 

Kathy: Well, it would be let's do away with the resolution and let's instead move toward intention. 

Kevin: So when you're working with a student, for example, you help them to set an intention for their year instead of a resolution. Sounds like an intention can be more lasting, but also more applicable in their lives. I know that one of the ways that we help people in our community set intentions is through choosing a word for the year that will help keep them focused throughout the year. 

Kathy: Yes, definitely. And the intention is an umbrella that covers the entire year. And you can always keep going back to it. I've already done that in the first twelve days of this year. My word is support. And yesterday something happened and I immediately went to what would provide me more support.

Kevin: Yeah, it sounds like intentions are more lasting than like a resolution. Maybe more like a wish versus like a commitment. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that sometimes our greatest achievements take time. Time to identify what they are, but then time to implement and time to carry them out. It makes me think about one of our dear friends and community members, Mary, who set an intention two decades ago. And as we have learned, she has just achieved her goal. I want to share a clip with you, but also with our community conversation that I just had with her recently as she talked about this goal and how she went about accomplishing it. Let's listen now. 

Kevin: Well, Mary, I'm so excited to speak with you today. Thank you for agreeing to come and talk with me a little bit. 

Mary: My pleasure. 

Kevin: So I'm excited to hear a little bit more about this goal that you set for yourself that you've just recently accomplished. Tell me a little bit about the goal and what gave you the idea of setting this goal? 

Mary: I had taught school for almost 40 years and reached tired in June of four, and people would say, Are you going to travel? And I said, Do I have to go someplace? And it was like, what do I want to do? And what I had in mind was a calm, peaceful existence. When I thought about what would be really calm and I don't live a real exciting life, my house is pretty calm already. 

But I was working and go, I have a lot of different interests, so I was going, going and doing things. So I said, Just being home with a good book, that's what I wanted to do. But then I don't even know if I was talking to anybody or just myself. But without any discussion, I said, I want to read 1000 books in my retirement. I was talking to a friend the other day and he said, I bet I've read over 1000 books. I said, I'm sure you had. Did you ever keep track of never thought to do that. Well, I did. So I had this little book, and so every book from the Sweet Thursday by John Steinbeck was the first. Every one of them had the author, the book, and the date. 

Kevin: How long did it take you to accomplish this goal? 

Mary: Well, I started reading June of as soon as I retired three. And then I have just read through the years and. My son was figuring it out. He said, Well, mom, you read about a book a week. 

Kevin: What are some of the highlights of your experience with reading 1000 books? 

Mary: I just started writing down, I started going through those lists, and I'm not finished at all. But like, foreign books or humor or celebrities, tons of autobiographies and biographies, historical, social, like trans kids, Boy Erased, In our hearts, We Were Giants. And then I made a list of my favorite authors because there are about 15 out of all of those are just so brilliant. And a couple of them, especially when I open their book, I get this I'm home feeling.  It's kind of like being in a room full of desserts. You just go, what am I going to enjoy today? 

Kevin: Wow. And so, last question. What advice do you have for our listeners who may be setting goals for this next year? What advice do you have for them about setting and keeping the goals that they make? 

Mary: Well, don't buy a big exercise machine. It's only going to hold your clothes. Make them realistic. Make them something that you can see that it's attainable. Don't make it so hard for yourself. We have enough pressure on ourselves. We have to give ourselves some slack. Take good care of yourself mentally, socially, emotionally. So keep it simple. Two or three probably enough, but make meaningful attainable and hopefully pleasurable. But it's something you can look back on and say, yeah, you know.

Kevin: Well, we're so proud of you, Mary, and we love you so much, and we're celebrating you and looking forward to hearing more about your reflection on this amazing accomplishment. 

Mary: Thank you, Kevin. I love you all too.

Kathy: Wow, that's awesome. I had heard about this, that she had accomplished this on Facebook. She had put it out, and we had actually seen that list a number of years ago when she was, I think, in the 3-400 or something.  But it is so inspiring. And one of my favorite parts of what she said is this passion that she had for just being at home and doing this. It's really eye opening to show us that a small dream can turn into this amazing accomplishment. 

Kevin: Yeah, I really loved her comments on the pressure that we feel and we put on ourselves. I had a much longer conversation with her than with the clip that I just shared. I'm actually thinking about doing a full episode of our conversation just because she shared so much other wisdom that I wasn't able to include in the clip. But I loved how she talked about the pressure that we feel in setting these New Year's resolutions because we want to make a goal to make others proud. And she talked about the importance of making a goal that we will make ourselves proud by the end of it. And the pressure that we feel because of others, and then we add the pressure that we put on ourselves and. It's just too much pressure. I thought that was so wise and sort something that I needed to hear this New Year. 

So I'd like to end our episode today with one final P of the list of P words that will help us when we make these new resolutions. And that's permission. I'd like to give you all who are listening today permission to let go of the pressure you feel from others this year, to let go of the pressure you're putting on yourself this New Year. I'd like to also give you permission to be good to yourself, as Mary said, to practice good self care, to take good care of yourself this New Year, no matter how much permission I give. 

The real power of permission is in giving permission to yourself. So I'd like to pause with you right now, wherever you may be. Take a moment of pause with me right now and answer this last question: what do you need to give yourself permission to do in 2023? 

So what you may be coping with this new year, we extend many blessings to you. Happy New Year.

Hardship is that unwanted and unexpected spiritual gift that can't be returned or refunded. Listen in to our special holiday episode as we discuss one holiday tradition that may help us cope better with hardships.

Kathy: Welcome, everyone, to a special Christmas episode. And it's exciting because this is the holiday season, and as I speak, my living room is currently flooded with packages and gifts that keep arriving that I haven't had time to unwrap. And so that brings up our topic that we are going to be talking about this afternoon, and that is the theme of gifts. 

Kevin: Absolutely. It's this time of year where this theme of gifts really arises for us. It's a tradition that we do year after year where whether we're giving gifts or receiving gifts, it's something that almost all religions, all people participate in this exchanging of gifts.

Kathy: And it's also a great time, I know, for us to look back on the spiritual gifts of this past year of 2022. And we have that tradition of doing that with our community and with our family, and it's such an important practice. 

Kevin: Yeah, I think it's important that we look at all of the gifts that we've received, all the spiritual ones, which also includes the hardships that we've endured. Hardships are like those gifts that are freely given, but always unexpected and definitely unwanted. It was like this time that I received a box of gourmet nuts as a gift one time it was from a relative, and I thought to myself, oh, great, thanks. I'm allergic to nuts, but thanks anyway, I appreciate it. Of course, I never said anything to them, but it's one of those things. It's an unwanted, unexpected gift that I get from a relative who probably should know that I have an allergy to nuts. 

Kathy: But, yeah, we always receive those surprise physical gifts. But also, I think there's been a lot of surprises of unexpected things that are coming our way this year. So we're going to talk about what we can do and receive these gifts. Let's get started. 

Kathy: So hardships are those unwanted, unexpected spiritual gifts? And I know our family has faced some of these hardships this past year. Kevin, do you want to share some of those maybe unexpected gifts that you received? 

Kevin: Yeah. So just recently, I received the gift of rest, which sounds like a gift that you would want to receive, but it was unexpected and unwanted because I was forced to take some extended time off from work after a recent visit with my doctor where he strongly recommended that I take this time to process some of the stress that I've been through this last year and the last few years through COVID. 

Kathy: Yeah, that's really hard and unexpected, it sounds like. And I know for unexpected gifts this year, we received a lot of breakdowns, had some plumbing breakdowns. We had an AC breakdown at the height of the heat wave here in LA in August. It was terrible. We had to go to a hotel. And then shortly after that, my car broke down and was declared a total loss. So it was a lot of unexpected hardships. 

Kevin: Yeah. And I know it's not just us, but our community as well, has had some of their own hardships and unexpected spiritual gifts this last year. Kathy and I just led a workshop recently that. We asked this question to our community. What are some of the unexpected spiritual gifts that you've received this last year? And they had some interesting things to say here. Let's listen into a clip of that. Okay. 

Attendee 1: The really unwanted sort of expected gift was the death of my mother on August 5th. She was almost 93 and we had three months of really hard suffering with her in Texas. So not totally unexpected, but certainly unwanted at this point. Yeah, but she's in a better place for sure. 

Kevin: So sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing. 

Attendee 2: I have one. About a month ago, my boss told me that she wanted me gone from our office, so I am retiring early. 

Kevin: Wow. Thank you. 

Attendee 3: A couple: One, I just I found out tonight to turn off our gas tomorrow because of a major leak. We live on a large piece of property with about twelve of us. And so that was one unexpected thing because they say take your shower early, et cetera, et cetera. 

And the other unexpected gift only because they were two real close friends of the family passed away within six months. Just about five months ago. 

Kevin: Thank you. I'm sorry for your loss as well. 

Attendee 3: I'll go ahead and share. I don't know that it's actually unwanted or I guess definitely I didn't see it coming, but I left my job. I quit willingly. So I don't know if you could say it's unexpected or unwanted. But I willingly quit my job without having another one because the conditions with my boss was just really horrible. So I would have never thought I'd see myself in that place. So I'm at a crossroads in my life and didn't see this coming.

Kevin: Sure. Thank you. 

Kathy: Wow. So, yeah, hardship is never something we ask for, but is always freely given. 

Kevin: Yeah. As you heard, really difficult things that our community has been through, difficult things that we've been through. Hardship, as you said, never something we want. Always unexpected, but something that's freely given to to all of us. But when I think about the holidays and the excitement around gifts and the expectation of unwrapping those gifts on Christmas morning, I'm always reminded of my favorite holiday tradition, and it's actually my favorite way to exchange gifts, and that's through the White Elephant gift exchange. 

Maybe some of you have heard of this or even participated in this practice, but what makes this tradition exciting is that participants exchange the gifts that they brought with somebody else in hopes of trading for something better. And when I think about this fun activity, I wonder what the spiritual application is for those hardships, those really difficult, unexpected, unwanted spiritual gifts that we've received throughout this last year. 

Is it possible to do a White Elephant gift exchange with these unwanted spiritual gifts that we've received this past year? 

Kathy: Yeah. That's such a neat thought. It reminds me of this game we would play in college, like the White Elephant Exchange. It was called Bigger and Better. And when we exchange these hard things, God promises us something much, much better. It reminds me of the verse in Isaiah 61:3 that says, “God has sent me to give them a beautiful crown in exchange for ashes to anoint them with gladness instead of sorrow, to wrap them in victory, joy and praise instead of depression and sadness.” 

Kevin: I just love that it's so good. It represents this exchange that God is offering. And the way that I interpret this passage is as God's invitation to us, his invitation to exchange what we have for what he is offering. I feel like that's the call, that's his invitation. But it's certainly a difficult one.

Kathy: It sounds so good, doesn't it? I love the word invitation. It's an invitation. But I don't think that I'm always opening this invitation to exchange my pain for what he has. And I'm wondering I know I have students, and as I think about myself that face these obstacles to this invitation, I think it could be fear for some. They're afraid of what's on the other side. It could be discouragement of, oh, it's never getting better. Exhaustion and wariness, of just in the fight constantly and never thinking that it can be better. What about for you? 

Kevin: I think what I'm dealing with most is, like, denial, that I just ignore my pain, my stress, and my need for help. Right. Or my need for rest. It's almost like I receive a gift, in this case, the gift of exhaustion, the unwanted spiritual gift of exhaustion. And then that gift is wrapped, and what I do is I tuck it behind the Christmas tree in a place where nobody can see it, where I can't see it, and I just pretend that it's not there. 

I don't know why I do this. But what do you say about that? Like, what is it denial? Like, what is what's the issue? Like, what is the obstacle there for me?

Kathy: Well, I think it it could be similar to what I experienced, but I don't tuck it away. I just try and fix it. And figure out a way or Google it or ask for advice. I'm trying to still hold on to it. I think for you, as you're tucking it away, it's sort of out of sight, out of mind, but in the end, you're still trying to figure it out yourself. And I think both lie with the issue of pride and self reliance. Sure, yeah. 

Kevin: It's almost like I took the present away behind the tree where I can't see it and pretend like it's not there for you. You unwrap it and try to figure out how you can return it to the store. 

Kathy: Exactly. 

Kevin: And what we have here from this passage is this invitation to exchange rather than ignore, rather than return. We can exchange what we have for what God is offering. What do we do when we are facing the obstacle of pride or fear or discouragement, guilt or shame? How do we overcome that if that's what we're recognizing is preventing us from this exchange that God is offering?

Kathy: Yeah. Well, I would number one, step one is to pause, stop everything that you're doing and recognize how you're feeling, how you're doing, what's going on with you. Once you understand and reflect on what the issue is, figure out how you can make different choices. If you are a person that runs away, then you need to be able to face it. If you're a person that takes control, maybe you need to surrender. And then if you are having trouble doing either of those things, I would really encourage you to reach out to help, for help and support, trusted friend, a wise counselor, therapist, one of us here at Be Well and say, look, I'm just a little bit stuck. I want to exchange and I'm having a hard time doing that. Such important practices, especially this time of year, stopping, pausing in the midst of the busyness, reflecting, reaching out for help and support – all really, really good things. 

Kathy: Yeah. And I'd like to invite everyone. I know it's a really busy time of the year. You're probably like me still thinking about last minute shopping and wrapping gifts under the tree. I know I have them left to do, but I wonder if right now we could just take a moment and pause as you're listening. 

Just take a moment and pause with me. And I want to invite you to think about what is an unexpected surprise gift that you received that was difficult or challenging this year. I would like for you to think about that right now. 

So now that you have it in your mind, I'm wondering what you want to exchange it for. What is God offering to you instead of what you have? And how can you, in this moment, in this time and in this space right now, exchange the gift during this season and receive what he has to offer? 

Kevin: Thank you, Kathy. Thank you for listening in. Merry Christmas to each of you and whatever it is that you may be coping with, blessings to you. 

Hardship is that unwanted and unexpected spiritual gift that can't be returned or refunded. Listen in to our special holiday episode as we discuss one holiday tradition that may help us cope better with hardships. 

Thanksgiving gives us an opportunity to practice giving thanks especially as we prepare for the holiday season. However, Thanksgiving is only a one-day-a-year holiday. How do we develop a daily practice of giving thanks? Listen now.

Kathy: Welcome, everyone. Happy Thanksgiving. We're so excited to offer this special episode edition of Coping for Thanksgiving. And I want to say that Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday of the year, not just because of the food, but because of the reason for the season. And that's actually a clue about what our episode is going to be about. But I wonder, Kevin, what's your favorite part of this holiday? 

Kevin: Yeah, Thanksgiving is one of my favorite holidays. Not my favorite, but the food definitely is up there. Kathy's a really good cook, so I also enjoy eating her cooking this time of year, especially all the leftovers. I think my favorite part of Thanksgiving, though, is it's the beginning of a season, of our year, of our life, where we begin to become more mindful, more thoughtful. I feel like there's a shift as the weather begins to change, it gets a little bit cooler. We start to make plans of gathering with friends and family, maybe even put in some PTO requests from work, that we start to become more thoughtful, more intentional, especially as we're leading into Christmas and then even the new year. 

Kevin: Reflecting back on the year, I find myself always turning inward, thinking about my values, my priorities, where I've come from, where I'm going the following year. Thanksgiving is that first step to unintentional space and makes me more mindful, especially as I think about what I'm grateful for. 

Kathy: I think also possibly because the weather changes, signals us to change our posture and our mindset toward winter, which is a time we know of deep reflection, the season of reflection, whereas the fall season is the harvest time. And the time of gathering. And so, yeah, that's exciting. This is an exciting season. It's cooler, wet temps here in La. For us, that means 60 degrees. Sorry, all of you winter birds. We're enjoying lovely weather here. 

Kathy: I think why we wanted to talk specifically about Thanksgiving was to talk about what happens on 364 of the other days of the year. If Thanksgiving is one day a year, is it possible to extend that? And it's a concept that we're going to call Thanks-Living. So I'm excited to discuss and to hear from our community about this topic today. Welcome. 

Kathy: So, welcome to this episode, our special Thanksgiving episode. And as we mentioned, we are diving into this topic of how do we celebrate Thanksgiving all the rest of the days of the year? How does it become a practice? And there's a quote I'd like to begin with with Anne Vosskamp. She's a writer, New York Times bestselling author. She's written a bestselling book called A Thousand Gifts, where she began to make a list of things that she was thankful for and it changed her way of life. And so here's what she says. She writes, "we give thanks to God, not because of how we feel, but because of who he is. God calls us to not only give thanks, but to do thanks that our Thanksgiving might literally become." 

Kathy: Thanks-living. I'll say that second portion again. God calls us to not only give thanks, but to do thanks that our Thanksgiving might literally become thanks living. Very good. And what are your thoughts on that, Kevin? 

Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I have never heard this quote before. You shared it with me for this episode. It is very powerful to think about the practice or the season of Thanksgiving being something that we live in our lives beyond just the holiday. I love how she makes a distinction between giving thanks, meaning, like, something that we say, especially at one time of year, and something that we do, that we're expressing our gratitude through our practices, through our behavior, through our relationships. It's not just something that we give, as she says. It's something that we live. I think that's what I most attempt to be most intentional about with Thanksgiving, that it's not just a season where I'm expressing the things that I'm grateful for, but becoming reflective about my life in general. How is my life in line with my values? What are those changes that I need to make to be living a life of thanks, to be living a life of gratitude? And I think she nailed it with the point of this season isn't just about giving thanks on Thanksgiving, but it's about living into our Thanksgiving beyond just the holiday. Yeah, it's really good. What do you think about it? How do you interpret it? 

Kathy: Sure. So I know her backstory. She's come from a lot of trauma in her life and a lot of brokenness and heartache and struggle. She's not speaking as -- she's Canadian and she's a farmer's wife, so it's a very different type of lifestyle that they live. But to be able to. Focus on the everyday simple things that she was grateful for, transformed her pain, and it redeemed it. And so because I've seen that example in her life, having to do some of those same practices for my life, I have seen the same sorts of changes, where one of the things that we can do and we'll be talking about this later in gratitude practices is being able to focus on what we have instead of what we don't. And all of a sudden our perspective changes. 

Kevin: One of the things that comes to mind for me is I know in my life there being a lot of obstacles and struggles to living into this thanks living practice. I know that I don't always feel grateful, I don't always want to give thanks or there's a lot going on in my life that is difficult. Although I'm grateful, there are things that I'm still grateful for. There's really hard things in my life, things that my mind is focusing on, problems that I'm encountering, really difficult situations. And so I guess I wonder, in your conversations with students, what are some of the main obstacles that stand in the way of students living out this practice of thanks living and how do we get around it? I mean, that's my main question. How do we get around it?

Kathy: And I think for me, I thought this was silly writing down a list of things I'm thankful, is that going to solve any of my issues? So I think that we think there's scriptures that say in everything, give thanks, right? And we're like, what? When I realized that and this has happened to us, that our house is 90 days away from being sold. On auction, not by our you shared. That story in your podcast episode. Like, how do you decide? Yay, I'm thankful. But I don't think that's what Paul is saying. And it's not what Anne is saying either. What she's saying is that what we focus on grows. And so I think for my students, what happens is all they can see are the problems. All they can feel is the pain. All they can see is how they what they don't have. And that's why gratitude and gratitude practices and this thanks way of thanks living is so powerful. Because if we stop and pause in our day and just think, it's noon, it's lunchtime, can I think about three positive things that happen today that I'm grateful for, then we begin to see where God is in that and we bring him back into the conversation. 

Kathy: But that's really the hardest part, I feel, of this, is to pause and do the intentional practice practice. It it sounds like that practice shifts your focus away from the things that you don't have and the challenges that you're facing, which are very scarcity mindset. That we all suffer from so badly. 

Kevin: It just changes your perspective. It doesn't change the situation. 

Kathy: Sure. Yeah. Right. 

Kevin: Yeah. How do you encourage people to remember to pause? What are the ways that we can disrupt our normal way of focusing on all the problems? How do we disrupt that? How do we change our focus in the moment? How do we remember to do that? 

Kathy: It is just like anything else, discipline or a practice. If we want to eat healthy, then we have to plan our meals. If we want to have a mindset of feeling like God's providing for us, then we need to focus on what he is providing for us. Sure. So it needs to just be something that you actually intentionally are doing every single day, every single month, every single year. And I think that we're going to get into that later on in our podcast today. It also says it's something that you plan to do in advance, that if you know that you want to be living a more thanks living life, you have to plan for it. 

Kevin: Build it into your day, set reminders on your phone, even choose somebody in your life who can keep you accountable.

Kathy: And gather all the materials, right? The journals, the jars, the app and create space for it. Because that's another huge obstacle, is that we're so busy, we're so distracted, and we're so connected in unhealthy ways to technology, to social media, to other people, whatever you want to call it. Things are not in its proper place. We can put it like that. And so then gratitude doesn't have any space. Practices don't have any space to exist. It's really good. I like it. So for this episode, we thought we were going to go into our community and I had the privilege and blessing of interviewing one of the members of our community Anleysha Kearney and about this because when I think of this word, I think of her and she's going to explain to us a little bit about Thanks-living and how this came to be a practice in her life. So let's listen into her.

Kathy: Hi, Anleysha. It's so great to have you on our podcast for our Thanksgiving podcast. And I thought of you because we are talking today about this concept of Thanks-living. And I wonder what life circumstances have led you to think about living a life of Thanks-living? Can you share a little bit about that?

Anleysha: Sure. Good morning and thank you for the invite. As far as my life circumstances go, I think the first major event was the birth of my first child in 2011. I had a complicated pregnancy throughout that. And so just being really grateful and thankful that she was able to be here and she was healthy and she's still healthy. And then most recently, I've been dealing with some pretty major health issues since the summer of 2019. So while I'm not completely healed, I'm a lot better than I was. And so that obviously puts things into perspective. And what do you think then it means to live this life of thanks living? For me, it's finding something or someone to be grateful for as often as possible and just being thankful for that thing or that person. 

Kathy: Excellent. So very simple, but very, very deep and hard to, I'm sure, focus on at different times. And what are the practical ways then you do this every day. What does a day in the life of thanks living look like for you? 

Anleysha: So I take things day by day. I don't focus too much on going too far ahead. And a lot of times it's moment by moment. For me, I'm thankful for the days where I feel good and my health isn't an issue. But I also take all that in even more because I know how bad it can be or how bad I can feel. And then I just find something good daily, even if it's a small thing. Because for me, I look at the bigger picture, and life is composed of a lot of small things just put together. And then, most importantly, I put a genuine effort into talking to God every day and just to thank Him for something. Thank you. And finally, what would you want to say to any of our listeners out there who really desire to live a life of Thanks-living. Sorry. I know it might sound corny, but life is truly a gift, and we take so much for granted. And if you're in the middle of your storm, just try to keep in mind that it won't last forever and things will eventually get better. And every time the Lord wakes you up, it's an opportunity for you to appreciate your life. 

Kathy: It's so heartfelt and so profound. We're with you, Anleysha. Thank you so much. 

Anleysha: Thank you. 

Kevin: Wow. It's powerful. She exemplifies somebody who is living it. Really living it. And there's something about illness that really wakes you up and gives you the kind of perspective that you need to be grateful with all things and recognize, as she said, what a great gift this life is, what a wake up call illness can be. And second to that, if not before that, when there's complications with your child, when they're ill or their life is in danger, gosh, I don't think that there's any two greater wake up calls than that. Something wrong with your child, something not the way it's supposed to be with your child and your own health in jeopardy. Those are the two ways that God wakes us up the most, I think. Really powerful. Thank you for sharing that, Anleysha. Thank you so much. And you know Anleysha better than I do. What else do you have to say about her reflection?

Kathy: Yeah, what struck me was this quote where she said, anytime the Lord wakes you up, it's an opportunity to appreciate your life. And I know for me and a lot of my students, when God wakes us up, it's an opportunity to try and fix it or try and get out of it or try and deny it or try and not pause, not stop, not listen. And so gratitude is not my natural go to in crisis, but I think what we do in crisis is a reflection of what we practice every day. And so I want that to be my go to is gratitude. And what she models for us is because she's doing that every single day. That when the storms will come again for her family, she will have practiced and she knows how to do this. Yeah, it's an amazing testimony. And I know her personality and I have worked with her, known her a number of years. Her personality is the take charge person. She she's an eight on the enneagram for you enneagram buffs out there. It's not easy for her to stop her forward progress in her forward motion, but she is committed to doing that every day for her and her family. Really powerful. I think that leads us to our principle for this podcast and that's that. 

Kevin: Thanks-Living is a way of life meant to be lived in all seasons. I'll say that again, Thanks-Living is a way of life meant to be lived in all seasons. And so what this season is really about, our hope for you all who are listening, is that as we enter this season of Thanksgiving, that it be an opportunity to reflect on our lives as a whole and learn how to lean into Thanksgiving not just in this season, but in every season of our lives. 

Kathy: And what do you think then? We talked a little, we touched on this a tiny bit. What do you think this looks like every single day? So Anleysha shared her practice of trying to focus on one grateful thing each day. Another practice we've done in our family is to before bed of time, think of three things you're grateful for. Write it in gratitude journal. And they have to be new things, not oh, thank you for God. We were saying that today like we are thankful for God, but like something new that happened and it can be very small but relevant. My daughter was talking about a mini Oreo cheesecake that I bought for her today as a dessert, as something she's thankful for. So know that the small things count as you're doing this, as you're making your list, as you're counting, as Anne says, you can count anything that you are thankful for. So that's what I would say for, like, some examples. 

Also, we have in our family a gratitude jar. We call it a joy jar. There's pieces of paper there next to it, and they can walk by and put in something they're grateful for. Again, if you have if you plan it out, it becomes something that's as easy and as natural as making a cup of coffee or in our house, a cup of tea every day. 

Kevin: Yeah. And I think that it's a good point in our family when we do this joy jar. When you're doing it as a community, as a family, or with somebody else, it can really keep you accountable to making sure that you're building this as a practice, something that you're leaning into, living into. But it also gives you one more thing to be grateful for the people that you're doing it with. And that practice can be something that you're leaning into itself. So the dividends of gratitude sort of multiply when you share the practice with others that you care about. 

Kathy: Yeah, and I love how you talk about community because it doesn't have to be like your immediate family if you're single. Or it can be at your workplace, it can be with your small group, it can be with your book club. Wherever you gather, you can do these practices. That's right. And what do you think about yearly, kevin, what do you say? How do we do yearly gratitude reflection practices?

Kevin: Yeah, as I was saying at the beginning of this episode, I feel like that natural season change for me has become when I feel it start getting a little bit cooler and I pull out my sweaters and start wearing hoodies and sweaters and jackets and stuff, it just naturally becomes a time where I'm becoming more reflective. But I think it's also a practice that you can build in that this time of year, we naturally take time to go visit family and friends. We take time off from work to spend Thanksgiving with our family or with our immediate family. But we can also find a way to take off time from work, to go on a retreat, a silent retreat. To use this time of year when we would typically put in PTO to be spending with other people, to find some alone time with God, to spend some alone time with ourselves, to reflect, to journal, to do some meaning making. 

Kevin: So I think we have the PTO, we're going to use it. We might as well take it and build in some of that self care time as well. And I know one of the practices we do with our community is coming up on December 8, if anyone is interested in signing up for our year and review workshop, it's an opportunity to reflect on everything we have, all the materials, and then to intentionally set a new word for the year upcoming. 

Kathy: And this is, I would say, a cousin of gratitude. Is this reflection, would you say? Yeah, I'd say that they go hand in hand, probably even closer than cousins. In order to be be grateful, you have to be mindful, you have to reflect. 

Kevin: I think oftentimes, especially. In the life of faith. We spend a lot of time praying and asking God for things, and then how quickly we forget to remember the ways that God has answered our prayers, and we go on to the next prayer, the next thing that we need, and we don't take time to remember. I think remembrance is the thing that builds our faith. It can also be the thing that builds our gratitude as well. When we remember how God has provided, when we remember the people in our lives who have been there for us when when you did the most. It's the remembrance, the reflection part of it that is often missing in our practice. Yeah.

Kevin: And I just want to also give a plug for the Year in Review retreat. It's one of my favorite things to do because it's one that I participate in as well as teach with Kathy, for the last how many years have we been doing this now? Four or five years. 

Kathy: We have just been doing it with the community. Yeah. Maybe about four or five years. Personally, I think I've been doing it seven or eight years. 

Kevin: Seven years? Yeah. So we've been doing this longer in our family, but we've been teaching about four or five years in our community. And it's such a powerful practice to choose to reflect on the year, obviously, but then to choose a new word and set a new intention for the new year. In fact, I'll share this with you all on my Apple Watch I have I choose whatever my word is, and then I find a screen saver to go on my Apple Watch, and I find maybe, like, five or six of them. So every time I look up my watch, I see on the back of my watch the word that I chose for the year. And so my word for this year is Ford, and it can mean different things at different times, different months. But it's been the word of intention for me this year, so I have no idea what my word will be next year. But it'll be nice to take some time to reflect and then see how a new word arises for me. And whatever that word might be, it will have all the meaning that God is intending to offer me in this new season. 

Kathy: It's all part of our Thanks-living is the reflection portion of it. And so then to review, let's review our principle, which is that we want Thanks-living to not to be a season, not to be just a season, but every lived every single day of the year. And any other thoughts as we conclude?

Kevin: Yeah, I think the other thing is to build practices of gratitude. Remember, as Ann Vaskamp says, it's something that we do, not just something that we say. Thanksgiving is about a practice, something tangible. And I'd also say taking time to reflect whether you actually take a day off from work or take some time in your day when you're on vacation to go reflect on your own, do some journaling. It's the remembrance that helps us to build our faith and to build the things help us to live into and lean into that gratitude and make us feel grateful when. We take the time. To shift our perspective and the reflection. 

Kathy: Well, Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. And shall we say Happy Thanks-living?

Kevin: Thanks, guys. 

How do you define coping? It's time to reframe our understanding of coping. Listen in as we provide a new framework for coping and detail how "coping well" relates to a life of significance. Enjoy!

Kevin: Well, welcome, everyone. I am so excited for this season three of "Coping". I'm excited to have Kathy here with me to be co hosting this season. Welcome, Kathy. 

Kathy: Thank you so much. 

Kevin:  So, as we begin episode one of season three, I think it's important that we kind of start at the very beginning, start with a definition of coping. As I looked into the word cope, I found that it's derived from the ancient Greek. It comes from this word. I'm probably going to mispronounce it. It's called colafos, which translates as a blow with the fist, which quite literally means a punch. So for our purposes, as we talk about coping, coping will be all about how we roll with the punches of life and how we learn to survive and even thrive when the hits just keep on coming. 

Kathy: Yay. So we're going to get to learn some boxing and how to put on our boxing gloves this season. 

Kevin: Yeah, pretty much. Put on boxing gloves and learn to keep our arms up. Yep. 

Kathy: That's great. And, you know, the reason we came upon season three was really reflected on the needs of our community and our world. As we think about the growing, rising rates of anxiety, mental health issues in the middle of pandemic, and still, in this very crazy and odd season of our world, we wanted to provide a space for practical tips, suggestions, questions, stories, and just more help, support and tools for the community. 

Kevin:  That's exactly it. So let's get started. So, as we get started, one of the really important things to say, and Kathy kind of alluded to this, the idea of coping mental health is on the front of our minds more than ever before. And I think it's important to acknowledge that this is a good thing, wouldn't you say, Kathy? This is a good thing that we're all mindful of the need to be coping hands down. 

Kathy: I would say one of the biggest blessings in disguise of COVID and Lockdown was that it shone a light on to mental health issues. So the stigma is lessening and for someone to say, oh, they're stressed out, like we all are stressed out, so it's not just another situation, we are all in this together. 

Kevin: Exactly. Yeah. So we have this word, coping that we're using now in a way that we weren't before. We understand when somebody says that they're feeling stressed out, having anxiety, these are now very common words and ideas that we use. Yeah. Acceptable. Exactly. There's not as much of a stigma as there was, I would say, even before COVID as it relates to seeking therapy and help. So this is a good thing. And so I think this podcast hopefully will be timely for those who are looking to cope better. And that really brings me to my hope for this season three. I think if there was one goal we were hoping to accomplish in this is to help us reframe coping and obviously offer so offer some tools and some tips for coping well, and that leads me to, I think, a reframe of coping in its entirety. 

Kevin: When I hear people talk about coping in general, I sometimes hear folks describe their coping as either coping or not coping. So somebody who is struggling might say something like, yeah, I'm not coping, man, I'm really not doing well, or somebody, say describing that they're doing well might say something like, yeah, I'm coping, I'm doing okay. I think that description, this dichotomy of coping or not coping, doesn't serve us well and doesn't help us understand what coping really is and doesn't help us to live into what coping is all about. So in reframing the understanding of coping, we have to shift away from the dichotomy of either coping or not and look at it instead on a spectrum. And what I mean by that is, everybody is coping. We are all coping with something. And the question is, are we coping well or are we coping poorly? So the two ends of the spectrum being not coping, and let me say that again, the two ends of the spectrum are not coping or not coping. 

Kevin: It's coping well or not coping well. And so we're all somewhere on that spectrum. Does that make sense? Is that how you would understand it, Kathy? 

Kathy: Yeah, definitely. 

Kevin: How do you see that with the students that you work with? 

Kathy: Yeah, I think what often happens is that not even thinking about coping, right. They are overwhelmed by anxiety or relationship issues or family situations, or they just lost their job, and then they're freaking out, and then they know that it's a bad situation, and so this is how they're reacting. But they're not stopping to understand that there are, especially if these have been patterns from childhood or just throughout their entire life, that this is what they always do. And they don't even think that it's coping. They know they shouldn't, but they don't know what they should or should not do. Coping well versus not coping well is a great way to teach it and to also give as tools. It's a goal. It's a goal for us. 

Kevin: So it sounds like students of yours who are facing a hard time find themselves, like, living in survival, where they're just, like, reacting to their stressors around them and they're just keeping their head above water. They're drowning and they're trying to keep their head above, above water. In addition to this understanding of the reframe of coping, being either coping well or not coping well, what do you teach your students about coping? How do you help them reframe and understand coping practices? 

Kathy: Sure. So one of the tools, I would say concepts that I teach at the very beginning, which is it's a very accessible way of looking at it. And I'm sure when I explain it, it's going to make sense to everyone out there. Pastor Rick Warren. I think we all know him from Purpose Driven Life. He leads Saddleback Church here in Orange County and has said that everyone lives at one of three levels survival, success, or significance. 

Kathy: Everyone lives at one of three levels survival, success, or significance. And so, Kevin, what is your take on these three S's? 

Kevin: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought this up. This is, like, one of my favorite teachings of his. And I think it's so revolutionary. Like, I remember the first time that I heard this teaching that it just made sense to me why I felt so burnt out or so exhausted because I was living in one of the lower three levels. So the way that I teach it as I work with, you know, some of my colleagues at work, is these three S's are different phases of life, if you will, but also different phases in different areas of our life. And so the way that I understand it is this: When we're living in the phase of survival, we're quite literally living day to day. You may think of this as like living paycheck to paycheck, barely keeping your head above water when it comes to your finances. But this is also true, like in our relationships, where you don't feel like your relationships are very successful, where you're doing everything you can to make your relationships work, but you find yourself working really hard at it and not quite clicking. Can't find the right friend group, can't find the right community group. Can't find the right partner. Find yourself just really hustling in every area of your life or in a specific area of your life. Just hustling and barely ever making it by the end of the day. The next phase of life that some move into is this phase of survival. I'm sorry, this phase of success. So you're moving out of survival into success and success. 

Kevin:  Success is when you stop living paycheck to paycheck, stop living maybe day to day and you have some comfort. You are able to afford maybe some of the nice things in life. You're able to enjoy life a little bit, the successes of your hard work. You have some success in your relationships. And I think this is really the the American dream mindset, if you will. Like everything that America teaches us about working hard is in this phase. Working hard so that you can enjoy all of the nice things of life that as a status symbol, you look like, talk like seem like somebody who's successful. We want to be around those successful people. But what I love so much about this teaching and the way that Pastor Rick talks about it is that we were created for this third phase. And that's the phase of significance. 

Kevin: That although we may find areas of our life or times in our life where we're living in survival and we may find ourselves transitioning into a place of success, what we're really destined for is significance. That when we work really hard, that hard work has meaning when we are in relationships with other people and it's successful that it gives meaning to our lives, that we find meaning in the things that we do, the people that we relate to. But more than that, that it connects to this higher purpose that we have and to our creator who has destined us for a life in community but in relationship with him. And so I feel like in those times and in those spaces in my life where I feel most exhausted, it's because I'm either stuck in survival or in success. And taking some time to pause and reflect on how I can transition into significance has been really helpful for me and I think is very much about coping and recognizing that the hustle isn't what we are destined for. 

Kathy: Right? It's very, very hopeful teaching because we find ourselves just thinking where are we going? Or what is the goal of our life and to know that we can return to the purpose for which we were created. Significance is a breath of fresh air. 

Kevin: And you said that you're the one that, you know, uses this a lot with your students. I wonder, how would you I guess what I mean to say is, like, what's the relationship between coping and these three S's? Why is this such an important teaching for our community who's just trying to cope? 

Kathy: Well, if you're in survival let's take the first one. If you're in survival and I would say that a majority of students that come to me for help in coaching are in survival in some area of their life, if not more than two or three or four areas of their life. Meaning they don't have any direction, there's no plan, and so they don't have any coping strategies, and they are not coping well. Sure. So in survival, we are not coping well. We're just barely making it. That is not coping well. That's just surviving. I meet a few students who are successful. They're successful financially, they're in good jobs. And what does that look like coping wise? 

Kathy Maybe there are some tools. They've been to therapy, so they have some tools to learn about who they are and their strengths and their weaknesses, and they're actively working on that. So the coping and the success realm would be marked by some use of some tools and therapy and things like that. It's interesting that they have some coping strategies. 

Kevin: Yeah. And it's interesting that some people who are successful seek out a life coach. Why? Why is it that somebody successful? 

Kathy: And the reason is they have all accumulated all of the tools, all of the things, and then they are lacking significance. 

Kevin: Sure. 

Kathy: And so that is the third one. And if we. Think about, like, coping for significance, that's our ultimate goal is to begin to integrate why we are here with our lives. And the only way we can do that is to work through the pain and the dysfunctional patterns to then live a life of significance. 

Kevin: Yeah, I'm thinking about my work in the hospital, especially with families and patients at end of life. We talk about this idea of meaning making, that it's one of the most important practices that families and patients do as they near their end of life. Make meaning from their illness, of doing a life review, talking about their childhood and their young adulthood and the things that are important to them. And I think significance is what that practice of meaning making really gets at, is I'm doing all of these things or in a patient who's near end of life, I've done all of these things. But was it significant? Did it matter? Did it mean something? Did I make an impact on the world around me? What's my legacy? I think it gets at that bigger question of that third S moving out of the success of what I've achieved or my accolades or what I've accomplished, move out of all the hard work I've done, but what was it all for? And that's what this third S gets at. So that's really good. I like that a lot. It's really helpful. 

Kevin: And so I think as we consider this principle or this teaching of the three S's, we have this principle, um, and it's that we were created to live beyond survival and success and to live into a life filled with significance. I'll say that again, we were created to live beyond survival and success into a life filled with significance. And so I wonder if you have any practices for our community this month. What's their homework? 

Kathy: So, yes, every episode we want you to practice and the first assignment would be to this week, scan your life. Look over if you're like a bird's eye view of your life, scan your life and see where are you living in survival? I'm sure even as I say these words, there are areas of your life that are popping into your mind. Where are you successful and where are you seeking significance? You can put even like mental post-it notes of that in your mind and in your heart of the areas that need some work and which ones need better coping strategies. 

Kevin: Well, awesome. So, just to recap, when we think about coping, let's think about coping as first, everybody is coping, everybody's coping with something and the question is not if you're coping or if you're not coping, the question is, are you coping well? And there are tips and tools and strategies to be coping well. And a really good way to think about your measure of coping well or unwell is are you moving from survival and success into this third phase of significance? Have you found significance in the majority of the areas of your life and the homework? This week, scan your life and do a journal, talk with a friend about these three s's and try to identify what areas of your life you're hoping to transition into more of a place of significance. 

Kevin: So with that, whatever you may be coping with, we are thinking of you and hoping so -- Let me figure how to how to how to sign this off. How do we end this first podcast. Whatever it is that you may be coping with, we are sending prayers your way, thinking about you and wishing blessings to you. Thank you. 

Kathy: Thank you. 

Listen in as Chaplain Kevin and Kathy reflect on Season 2 of Coping. You'll hear their favorite moments and lessons from the past season. Be sure to listen to the end as they offer a sneak preview of Season 3! Enjoy.

Announcement: Today's episode is brought to you by Be Well Resources. Be Well is a wellness organization that provides mental and spiritual tools for whole person health. Be Well helps you develop your unique gifts and discover your calling. Follow us on Facebook or Instagram at Be Well Resources to take your next steps toward being well.

Kevin: Welcome. This is Chaplain Kevin.

Kathy: And I'm Kathy, and today we're looking back on season two of “Coping”. 

Kevin: It's so nice to have you here with me to reflect a little bit. I can't believe the season is over. We've had our ups and downs, but we're happy to look back on some of the best parts of the journey today. 

Kathy: We did have our ups and downs. I really feel like it was a bit of a roller coaster of stories of emotions, vivid imagery of all of the stories that these women shared, and I got to share, too, which is kind of a surprise at the end of this season. 

Kevin: So I think what I would like to do for this episode is to take us back to season one, episode one, and talk a little bit about the beginning of “Coping” and how it all came together. 

Kathy: Yeah. Well, I think you had an idea to take your reflections and make it into a podcast. These are reflections you did for the hospital, and that's in effect, what season one was, correct?

Kevin: Yeah, basically, I work as a chaplain in a hospital, and one of the things that I do is write these reflections and deliver them over the PA system in the whole hospital. And I've been writing them for a few years now and have enough to do one every week for a whole year. So basically 52 of them, including holidays and stuff, and nurses were asking me for the reflections and handing them a piece of paper just doesn't quite do justice. 

Kathy: Yeah, it's not the same thing.

Kevin: I think it's the reading of it. It's the performance of it that I think is really meaningful for folks. So I recorded them, then put them up for the nurses that I work with, and staff seem to appreciate that. And after I recorded a full year of that, you and I got together and we're like, “What could we do for season two?” You wanted to do something with Be Well and connect to the work that we've been doing for almost ten years now. 

Kathy: And one huge component of our ten year journey is that we used to host where women would share their stories. And so that's basically what we did. We decided to bring back some of our guests in the podcast format and you interviewed them. We came up with a theme that we would pull out, and the fact that we could send it around the world with a link was unbelievable. Kevin: What was the whole point of these stories being shared at the event? Why did you have these women share their stories?

Kathy: So the thought when when I first started these in 2015, and then we ended actually last year, having done 26 of them, was to provide a platform where everyday women could share stories that were authentic and would empower and encourage other women. I think it's important to say that these are not women who are on the speaking circuit. These are just everyday women sharing their stories. And I think that's a lot of the power of the story that these are everyday women. 

Kevin: Absolutely. As the host, I just have to say I feel so honored to have sat with each of these women. I spoke with them for about an hour and a half, each of them, and then edited down the podcast to about 15 minutes, which was quite a task. 

Kathy: Gargantuan task, yeah. And what do you think was your favorite part of this season two of “Coping”?

Kevin: Gosh, there's so many of them. I think perhaps the best part of this season is how memorable each of the stories are. Having spent so much time with the editing process, hearing the voices of these strong women in my head again and again and again, really ingrained a lot of their strength, a lot of their wisdom, and I feel like they have spoken to me not just as I've edited, but in my life. And that's kind of the point, right? That these lessons, these stories, although powerful, be not just powerful in this telling of the story, but in the application of the lessons that the listeners can also feel like they can tap into the lessons that are being taught by each. 

Kathy: Absolutely. That's them. And so I think what we want to do, we want to review some of the highlights of our favorite moments. There's a lot of those favorite moments. What are some of the favorite moments from this last season? 

Kevin: One of the things that I recall really vividly as you talk about their story sticking is the metaphors that these women came up that were so powerful from Stephanie's mustard seed. Faith. When I think about faith, I think about the mustard seed. That little seed is so tiny, but yet when it's planted, it just grows into this gigantic tree. Lindsay's letting go of the glasses of comparison. I think when we choose to put on a kind of glasses and lens of comparison, where we're constantly comparing ourselves and our circumstances, then we really kind of close off our ability to receive joy. 

Kathy: Two Jean’s. Love being a carousel. I'm going to give you the analogy and compare it to a merry-go round, a carousel at an amusement park where everyone's excited to go and to participate with family and friends. And you get on that carousel and it goes round and round and round and up and down and up and down. And for me, that's what love is. It's a continuous circle, but with lots of ups and lots of downs. Just the way that they captured their words in pictures was very memorable to me and will always stay with me. 

Kevin: Yeah. I'm also thinking about Melinda, who shared about how in the hardest time of her life, she drove herself home. I equate Grace with the action and feeling of coming home, because in one of the hardest seasons of my life, grace called me home physically and spiritually. 

Kathy: Thinking about Amy, who shared, about always finding a way. I always remembered what my father would tell me. You will figure out a way, even if it's different. Even if it takes longer, you'll figure out a way. Thinking about Summer, who talked about finding her people and how important that is as it relates to belonging. It's important to find your people, to find the people who will love you and care for you and show up for you the way you need

Kevin: Gosh, there's just so many. I'm even thinking back to episode one where you shared on Perseverance. Perseverance is trying to find your footing in the midst of crashing waves coming again and again, and just even if it topples you upside down and you swallow saltwater, figuring out a way to get back on your feet. 

And there were so many powerful lessons with each story, with each image. What are some of those lessons that stand out for you?

Kathy: I recall Anne talking about not muting your voice for anyone, but to understand that our voice is worthy and that it resonated with me because I can think of times where I have muted my voice because of what other people have said. And it was a great reminder to speak your truth, which was what her word was, and allow that to be heard. Yeah, I'm thinking about Stephanie, who shared, about struggling with faith and about how that's a good thing, because that means that we need to take help, that we're not in this alone, that we can reach out to our community and ask for help. 

Kevin: Yeah. I think that's a thread that is pulled together with all the stories appreciated so much was the deep authenticity and vulnerability of each story. And I think that showcases what our entire platform of stories this season has been all about. 

Kathy: Yes. So I'm excited to see what's up for next season. What do we have cooking up for next season Kevin?

Kevin: We've been thinking about how to improve upon this topic of coping, and so season three is really going to be about practical tools for coping. We're going to be talking about relevant topics that are either in the news or things that we're sensing that our community is in need of right now. And so I'm really excited to announce that will be joining me for season three. 

Kathy is a certified life and Vocation coach and runs Vocation groups and has a lot of students that she works with through her coaching business, so I'm excited to have her join us. And Kathy, do you mind sharing with us just some of the topics that you think that we'll cover this next season? 

Kathy: Sure. I think some of the topics are going to be ones that, as a coach, I encounter and have been encountering often. Some familiar ones are surrounding vocation and calling. And it's all about how do you find a job, what is a good fit for you for your job, what is meaningful work look like? Another one that we work with a lot has to do with boundaries, like how do we say no and how do we set boundaries in our life and what does that actually look like? Some of the topics I'm hoping to discuss are topics around loss, grief, and how we cope. 

Kevin: I'm hoping to also offer some practical tools for building spiritual practices and having spiritual balance and wellness in your life. And so I'm just really excited about the possibilities of this next season and making it even more practical as we offer some helpful tips and tools for what you may be coping with. 

Kathy: Yes, sounds great. Looking forward to it. I just want to say thank you so much for all the work you've done this season, especially with the editing and. This is Kevin's brainchild, this whole podcast, and he's put tireless amounts of effort like he said, but you all literally have no idea. 

Kevin: Thank you. So appreciate that. Thank you. I've really enjoyed this. And those of you that are subscribers to this podcast and listen every week, I thank you. I'm watching the metrics of those that are listening. So I really appreciate those of you that are tuning in. If you haven't already, you can go ahead and reach out to us and connect with us on Instagram. You can find Kathy at Bewellresources on Instagram, and you can find me at Chaplain Kevin. We'd love to chat with you more there, maybe even hear some ideas about future episodes. If there's a topic that you want us to cover, if there's something that you're coping with that might be helpful for others who may be coping with the same thing, we'd love to hear from you and love for you to be part of the community. 

Kathy: So thank you all so much for the last two seasons. We're looking forward to what is up ahead and for whatever it is that you're coping with. Blessings to you. 

Is God calling you? Listen in to our Coping Conversation with Chaplain Kevin, who shares his compelling story of answering the call and saying yes to God. Kevin is interviewed by his ministry partner and wife Kathy.

Kathy:  Welcome. This is Kathy, and today I'm talking with Chaplain Kevin, who, as a young boy, heard a call to ministry on his journey to say yes to God. He encountered obstacles along the way, but ultimately discovered the true meaning of calling. This is “Coping”.

Hi, Kevin. It's great to have you here. It's appropriate that you'll be ending this season, and I'm excited to interview you. 

Kevin: Well, thank you for this opportunity. I'm excited to share my story, and I thought this was a really good idea. 

Kathy: So as I was reviewing your story, I noticed that a theme that is pulled throughout your story is this notion of calling. Could you tell us what your definition of calling is? 

Kevin: Yeah. So I've thought long and hard about this definition, and I think it just comes down to saying yes to God. Tell me what it means to say yes to God. I think when we traditionally think about someone who is called, especially in the Christian church, we think of pastors, ministers, those that work in full time ministry. 

But when I talk about calling, I'm talking more about the idea that all of us are called in whatever vocation we're in, whatever role or title we have, we can dedicate that job, that role that we have back to God. 

Kathy: And can you tell me in your life when you first sensed that you needed to say yes to God, or you began to hear that calling?

Kevin: I can't remember how old I was, but actually, we grew up Catholic, so we were sitting in the middle of Mass with my family and remembering this sense. Almost the way I describe it is like this audible voice of God whispering to me very gently, very compassionately, telling me that one day I'll be the one standing up there. And, um, you know, I didn't really know what that meant, but I just had this leaning or this drawing towards not just sitting in the pew, but, you know, being up on the altar, being part of the service in some way. 

And so, as a good Catholic boy, that led me to becoming an altar boy. I was old enough to be able to start serving en Masse and participate in the service in that way. And I loved it, actually. Our church was very vibrant growing up. 

We had a very charismatic priest who preached very passionately, and I felt very connected to this church community. Growing up and serving as an altar boy felt like a good next step for me. I remember doing that for a few years, and our priest actually was the first person to turn to me and say, kevin, when you get older, you're going to be a priest and you're going to be a really good priest. I'm pretty sure now, as I got older, that he said that to every altar boy. But I took it to heart. I really felt like there was something about what he said that rang true for me, that there's something about my faith and my calling that I needed to be an active participant in the service of people. 

Kathy: Wow, that's quite a story. But it also sounds like a really simple way to begin answering the call is just by saying yes. As you said yes at a young, early age, what opportunities began to come your way? 

Kevin: When I was going into fifth grade, my parents made what seemed like a very radical decision to send my brother and I to a private Christian school. You know, we were Catholic, so sending us to a school that was very, like, Protestant, more Presbyterian leaning was a leap of faith for them to send us to this school. But they felt like it was the right thing for us and felt committed to us having a Christian education, so it's the first time that I would sit in academic classes and hear teachers talk about their personal relationship with God, with Jesus specifically. 

They would do Bible studies and talk about these heroes of faith. There's something about it that I just felt really drawn to and felt like, gosh, I want to live like that. I want to be a hero of faith. I want to live my life in a way that is serving outside of myself, that I'm serving others, that I'm living for a higher purpose, if you will. I remember at that age, I had been just in my heart, sort of asking God questions, like, if you exist, can you reveal yourself to me so I know that you are real, that you exist? The innocence of that age and calling out to God is quite sweet when I think about it now. But God and his majesty and sovereignty answered in a way that I could understand and a way that felt real to me. 

So that Saturday morning, I was at a soccer game, and I remember seeing a rainbow. And when I saw the rainbow, I just was flooded with these emotions and remembering of God to reveal Himself in a real way to me and just felt overcome by what felt like his love for me. And felt like if the God of the universe was making Himself known to me in this way, how can I make myself known to Him with my life? Wow. And I wonder. 

Kathy: For those of us, myself included, who don't have a lot of those experiences, how does God reveal the opportunities to say yes in everyday life? 

Kevin: Such a good question. There was this class I took in seminary that talks about conversion being both this capital C conversion, much like what I described of this very vivid memory of giving my life to God. But then there's this other kind of conversion, and the professor described it as like that you in your heart over a long period of time say yes so often that you don't have a very vivid one time conversion experience, but instead your heart is leaning in the direction of God. And you say yes quietly in your heart so often that it's not something that you remember doing in a drastic way, but something that you've done so faithfully that the conversion is still there. The saying yes is still there, the faith is still there, but that memorable experience is just stretched over our lifetime. 

Kathy: Great. That makes complete sense. You were saying yes as a young boy, and then you got to make like a profession of faith. And then what happens oftentimes I know is that obstacles come in the way of you in experiences and challenges to the call. So what happened in your journey next?

Kevin: So, for me, opposition came in the form first with school academically. I was not a very good student in my middle school and high school years, especially with slowly over time fall more and more behind. They didn't realize then I've come to learn as an adult, having some learning differences and not learning in the traditional academic way. And so that carried on all the way to about my senior year of high school when. 

I actually failed my senior year of high school, if you can believe it. And vowed that I would never go back to school ever again. I just remember being up at night crying with the homework assignments that I just couldn't couldn't get myself to do. Whether it was because of these mental blocks, because of my learning differences, or just because I was so far behind at that point that I just didn't understand what I was supposed to be doing and really felt alone, like I didn't have a lot of help. 

But it was my senior year. There was a math class. There was one teacher who said to me, you may hate me now, but I think there'll come a day where you'll look back and you'll be grateful that I didn't just pass you along, that you got the grade that you deserved, and I'm sorry. So he gave me enough, and he was right. I deserved it. That was the grade that I had earned. And it sent me, like I said, to this commitment of never going back. To school ever again. I was over it. I was done. 

Even in the backdrop of you being able to say yes, a lot of times, I think that when we say yes to God, then everything's going to fall neatly into place, and your story illustrates that that is the opposite actually happens. 

Kathy: What other challenges came your way as a result of saying yes? 

Kevin: Yeah, there were certainly other struggles. Academia felt like the biggest one. My mom and my biological father divorced when I was young, before I can even remember. But then my mom remarried when I was four, and so my mom and my stepdad raised us. But my senior year, when things were the toughest for me, I started to sense that something was changing in our family. 

My parents felt distant to one another. My stepdad was traveling a lot more alone than he had used to for business. And it was, I think, October, November that they. Sat me down and basically explained that they were going through a divorce. And it was just a few months that went by that they basically sold the house that I grew up in. My stepdad moved into his own apartment, and my mom moved back to New Jersey where her family was. And so I was, like, failing out of high school, my parents were going through a divorce. I moved in with a friend temporarily and just felt like lost at this stage of my life where you would typically be launching into your life, launching into adulthood. 

I was sort of hitting rock bottom, if you will. One thing that was going well, I should say I had in middle school, started modeling. I grew up in Miami, Florida, and it's a big modeling scene there. And so being a creative person, I felt like that was something that I wanted to participate in, and I did, and my mom and dad were very supportive and put me in classes and got me headshots and got me an agent. And I was with Willamena Models Miami, one of the premier modeling agencies in Miami, and would go out for jobs here and there and really enjoyed it and got some pretty good residuals, as they say, from some of the work. 

As I went into my junior and senior year of high school, my agent started sending me out for commercial auditions. So not just print ads, but TV commercial. And at that time, I booked an American Express commercial, a Bell South commercial, and also a Nike Champs commercial. 

Kevin: As I was failing, as my parents parents marriage was coming to an end, this was the one glimmer of hope for me. I felt like, this is what I want to do. I'm not going to go back to school ever again, but what I want do is move to Los Angeles and pursue my acting career. 

Kathy: Well, you bring up an important point for calling that not only does it become darker at points, but there is still a light on. In the backdrop, and we have to look for the light. And even in the midst of your world falling apart, there was still a light that was pointing you in a direction. Is that correct?

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really good point, because whenever I feel like God is calling me to say yes again, God's always pointing in the direction of the way that I should go, it's never like this very specific, tangible thing that I should do. And then I do the thing, and I answered the call, and then God is proud. It's often not very specific. It's very directional. And that's kind of been consistent throughout my life that at that time, in my senior year, I felt that God was calling me to Los Angeles. 

I had an idea that I wanted to pursue my acting career, but I was confident that this is the next place, the next step for me to go. Right. So the calling that God has for us is often directional. And what we're saying yes to is to Him, obviously, but the plan that he's giving us is a path, and we just have to walk down the pathway, not have to say yes to the thing at the end of it. 

It's not destinational, it's directional. And I often say sometimes it's follow the crumbs. So follow the crumbs of where you are meant to go. It's very much within where your passions lie and what you like to do. It seems sometimes super obvious, but if you follow the crumbs, you will then see the next crumb and the next crumb. Yeah, absolutely. Follow the crumbs. And I feel like that goes back to this idea of the capital C calling, the lower C calling. 

Because I've had that capital C calling in my life, I think I often naturally look for those big life changing moments. And I think the faith that I've had to develop is to say yes to those little C callings. I think for me, it's harder to say yes. Breadcrumbs to follow the pathway when I don't know exactly where it's going to lead. 

Kathy: We'll be right back.

Announcement: Today's episode is brought to you by Be Well Resources. Be Well is a wellness organization that provides mental and spiritual tools for whole person health. Be Well helps you develop your unique gifts and discover your calling. Follow us on Facebook or Instagram at Be Well Resources to take your next steps toward being well. 

Kathy: Welcome back. And so your directional calling takes you to Los Angeles. What happens there?

Kevin: So part of the plan in me moving to Los Angeles was to attend the American Academy of Dramatic Arts to at least have a transition from, you know, being in school and coming to LA. 

So it wasn't quite school. It was more like creative school. But I continued my patterns of being a poor student and did my first year, wasn't invited back for my second year. And I got to the end of that first year, and I got to a point where I was sensing that I was in the promised Land, meaning I was in the place that God was calling me. 

I felt like I was where I needed to be, but I was missing the promise. And so I felt like it was time to start talking with some folks who were smarter than me, that maybe could speak some wisdom into my life. So I started reaching out to some mentors, some friends, and you were one of them, basically shared with you, if you remember this. You know where I was at, what I was going through, and just felt a little bit lost. 

And you asked me a really interesting and important question. Do you remember that question? The question was, “is acting the only thing that you're called to do?” And my response was no. And I vividly remember telling you, I've never told anybody this before, but ever since I was young, I felt like God was calling me to be a priest. 

 remember you laughing and saying, “A priest? Are you even Catholic anymore? What do you mean, a priest?” I was like, well, if God I'm being called, what else would I be? And you were the first one to introduce to me this idea of being a minister. And I said, what's a minister? I don't even know what that is. And after some conversation, I remember you asking me another important question. If you're being called by God, are you willing to do whatever it takes to answer that call? Meaning, are you willing to say yes to God no matter the cost? And at that time, I got to a point where the answer was yes. I knew that I didn't want to continue to live in a promised land wandering. 

I wanted to be living in the promised land with the promise. You then said, well, if you're willing to do whatever it takes, the next step for you is to go back to school. And I felt devastated, like, oh, no, of course. The very thing the one thing I said I would never, ever, ever do ever again, the one thing that I'm horrible at is the one thing that I'm now being called to go do. So I said, okay, fine. I'll go do my bachelor's degree. I can do that. I could do four years. To which you came back and said, “Well, actually, a minister has a Masters degree.” And at that point, I was like, you know what? Like, I'll do whatever it takes. I'm in. I don't feel like I have what it takes to do it, but if God's calling me to do it, he's going to give me what it takes. Sure. And I would say, too, that calling always involves a cost. And so that's an important point that we see in your life of a financial cost, a cost of going back to do something. 

Kevin: A feeling like this is unattainable, impossible. So the calling, would you say, involves a cost? Oh, for sure. I think more than cost, I would say, like, sacrifice. For me, I had to let go of, first and foremost, my ideas of what my life would be, my idea of how it would go, my idea of the timing, but then also the practical sacrifices that I wanted to move to La. 

Speaker 1 And get an agent, start booking jobs and just be like a famous actor and just be like working in the industry. That's like, what I wanted. And I feel that maybe God was leading me in a different path. 

Speaker 1 And I wasn't very happy with that at that time. I was like, well, why am I in LA then? I can just go be a minister anywhere. Why am I here? And so the cost is first one's will being aligned with what God's will is, but then I think the other cost is, again, practically like, now I'm going back to school. 

I didn't have the financial support from my parents. I wasn't very good in high school, so how am I going to now be successful in college and then go on to get my master's degree? 

Kathy: Like, what overwhelming? 

Kevin: Yeah, it was impossible. It wasn't something I was going to be able to do on my own. By the end of it felt like it was the path of redemption for me, a path of reconciliation that I believed for too long. Whether it was communicated to me directly or if it was just something that I believed subconsciously about myself, that I was dumb, that I couldn't do school, that I wasn't the academic one in the family, that this wasn't my pathway, that I wasn't smart. 

I learned over time that I am smart. I can even, surprisingly, enjoy school. I can succeed, I can be successful. I can do this, and I can enjoy it. 

Kathy: And then what happened then towards the end of your schooling time in terms of the direction of where you were pointed? 

Kevin: It was really in my last year of seminary at Fuller that one of the requirements is to do an internship at a church. And so I was serving at that time at a local church. But needless to say, long story short, I realized very quickly that I did not want to work in a church. I saw the behind the curtain, if you will, and realized, gosh, this is not really where I feel called. So actually, like, I was when I first moved to LA. I was back to a point of like, gosh, I need to reach out and talk to some folks. And again, you were one of those people. You were the one to say to me, “Well, what about chaplaincy?” And I said, what's chaplaincy? I don't even know what that is. What are all these terms that you keep coming up with? I don't even know what that is. And you were the one to find this program. It's called Clinical Pastor Education CPE, and felt like, gosh, this may be a good step or transition. I don't feel called to hospital ministry per se, but maybe a good way to transition where there's some class days and there's some ministry days. 

So I'd be serving, like, in a hospital as a chaplain. And so that's what I did. I signed up to be a chaplain resident at Provident, St. Joe's, and Burbank, and I felt in love with it.

Kathy: And it's interesting that you say that you didn't feel called to hospital ministry, but you must have followed some of the crumbs that you just talked about, and you knew the place where you were supposed to be once again, but you didn't feel like, oh, I want to sign up to work in a hospital. 

Kevin: Exactly the sense that I had. The directional call that I had was away from traditional ministry, away from, like, church ministry, towards the direction of nontraditional ministry. And the only place that that was actually being done and like a formalized job that I would be potentially paid for was hospital chaplaincy. 

And so because I knew chaplaincy was closer to where I was being led, although it wasn't the destination, it was the direction, I went in that direction. That's one of the main things that I've learned in the whole process is that when you say yes, you're not saying yes to the thing per se. 

You're saying yes to God and then saying yes to the people that you're serving along the way. And as you go along your way, you're learning and picking up skills and tools that you're going to then be using through your ministry for the rest of your life. So every time I say yes, I feel like I grow as a person, and every opportunity that I say yes to makes me even better for the next opportunity that comes. 

Kathy: I'm wondering if folks would ask what lessons that you have that you've learned personally about calling. 

Kevin: Yeah, I would say the first is to answer the call. Just say yes. It's hard as I've described, but it's always been worth it. That's the first thing. I think the second thing, too, is if you're being called, if God is calling you to do something, you should also call on your team. Call those people in your life that have been there for you, that have been there with you, who can help you discern what the call is and can support you as you answer the call. And the third thing is that calls can be transferred. 

It's possible that you are serving in one place and then God calls you to serve in another place, and that you take those skills that you learned in that place and serving those people to the next people that God's calling you to. 

Kathy: Well, thank you so much, Kevin, for sharing your journey with us. I know that I've learned a lot and I know our listeners. Going a lot. We just thank you so much.

Kevin: Thank you.