Courageous Conversations About Our Schools

In this episode, host Ken Futernick speaks with James Coan, founder of More Like US, along with high school students Landon and Deegan, about perception gaps in American society.

James explains how perception gaps are the exaggerated negative views we hold about people with different political beliefs. Research shows Americans across the political spectrum are actually more similar than they realize, but media, social platforms, and political systems often incentivize division.

For Landon and Deegan, learning about perception gaps has changed their approach to conversations, making them more willing to listen to different perspectives and question information they find on social media. The episode explores how schools can use a lesson plan from More Like US to help students recognize these gaps and improve civil discourse. "I think the perception gap lesson really taught me that I need to take what other people say more seriously. I can't just go into something thinking that I'm always going to be right. I need to listen to what other people think," Landon said.

This semester, More Like US is working with Georgetown University's Civic Education Research Lab to test the effectiveness of the lesson plan. The lesson plan (linked below) includes both a pre-survey and a post-survey that More Like US encourages teachers to give to their students. 

Guests also discuss recommendations made by Daryl Davis, a Black musician and previous guest on this show, who had the courage to interact with members of the Ku Klux Klan, some of whom had never spoken to a Black person. Davis believes the best way to reduce dangerous misperceptions about others, the kind that can lead to hate, is for schools to enable students to interact with people outside of their affinity groups. Landon and Deegan were enthusiastic about programs like Mismatch, developed by the organization All Sides, which enables students across the country to learn about one another and to interact around controversial issues. 

The conversation highlights how reducing perception gaps through better listening and understanding can help bridge political divides and foster more productive conversations in schools and beyond.

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In this Courageous Conversation, host Ken Futernick and Dr. Jonathan Zimmerman, a professor of History of Education at the University of Pennsylvania, delve into the heated debates surrounding American schooling. They explore the historical roots of compulsory education, analyze the recent Supreme Court ruling (Mahmoud v. Taylor) on opt-outs for LGBTQ+-friendly texts, and discuss the rise of unregulated homeschooling. Zimmerman shares concerns about the future of civic education and our ability to bridge divides, offering insights on how to foster courageous conversations in schools.

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In this episode, host Ken Futernick sits down with Bruce Wasser, a former history teacher whose life story is as inspiring as his teaching career. Bruce shares his poignant journey from being a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War to becoming a beloved educator who had a profound impact on his students. Listen as Bruce recounts the pivotal moments that shaped his life, including the influence of his high school basketball coach and the challenges he faced in standing up for his beliefs. The episode also features Julia Damer, a former student of Bruce's, who shares her experiences in his classroom and the lasting impact he had on her life. The conversation highlights the reciprocal influence between teachers and students, as well as the enduring power of education to inspire change.

The conversation also raises an important question about the kind of influence one would want teachers to have on their students. Bruce says, “I am in the business [of teaching] so I can help young men and women become proud, strong citizens, loving their country when it's right and earnestly trying to change it when it's wrong.” Might such an approach to teaching lead to indoctrination? Do we want history teachers taking on such a role, or should they stick to historical facts? “If that's indoctrination,” Bruce says, “I'll plead guilty to it, but I don't think you can teach any subject blandly or without any kind of conviction.” Later, Bruce explains that he wants his students to find their voice, to stand up for principle, whether or not it aligns with their teachers’ or classmates’ perspectives. “I would always try to find my way to stand next to the minority opinion, always stand close to that man or woman who's standing up and arguing for principle, and I would tell 'em you might be one person facing a hurricane, but you've got to have strong roots. You have to have the courage of your convictions. These are your friends. Don't worry about being in the minority.”

Discover how Bruce's experiences as a young man shaped his teaching philosophy and the lasting legacy he left in the classroom. This episode is a testament to the power of education and the importance of nurturing young minds to challenge the status quo and strive for a better world.

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This story starts with a bag of shoes that helped a school community heal after the tragic deaths of two students. That story blossomed into a unique project called the “Shoe Club” that fosters empathy and breaks barriers in a Michigan middle school. The founder of the club and guest on this episode is Matt Hamilton, a 2025 Horace Mann and NEA Award-winning teacher from East Jordan Public Schools in Michigan.

The Club has gotten national attention with inscribed shoe donations from the likes of Jane Goodall, Michael Jordan, moon-walking astronaut Chalie Duke, Dolly Parton, and a Nobel Peace Prize recipient. 

Hear about the unique requirements for joining the Shoe Club, which now include reading the book Value Up, co-authored by Hamilton. Students also donate one of their own shoes with a meaningful inscription. Matt explains how the club evolved to include community service and the creation of dream boards, all designed to empower students with a sense of purpose. 

Joining Matt are two student Club members from East Jordan: Hannah Wyman, an eighth-grader active in theater, and Rylan McVannel, an eleventh-grader with a passion for disc golf. Both are integral to the Shoe Club's story and offer firsthand perspectives on its significance within their school community.

A central theme of the conversation is the concept of students wearing "masks" and the pain that can lie hidden beneath the surface. Matt, Hannah, and Rylan discuss the Shoe Club's role in encouraging students to see beyond these facades and creating a safe space for understanding and connection. They share powerful insights into how the club promotes listening, appreciating diverse perspectives, and bridging the powerful forces that often divide students. 

For educators intrigued by the Shoe Club, Matt generously offers guidance on how educators and students elsewhere can start something similar in their own schools. 

This episode is a testament to the power of a teacher's vision and the remarkable capacity of students to create positive change. Through the simple yet profound act of sharing stories and "walking in each other's shoes," the Shoe Club in East Jordan is a powerful antidote to division and a beacon of hope for building more empathetic and connected school communities.

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How many of us would have the courage to have a conversation with someone who hates us? My guest, Daryl Davis, has done just that, not once, but for decades, with members of the Ku Kluz Klan and other hate groups, and many have renounced their ideology after getting to know him. A Black musician, Davis shares his unbelievable story driven by one powerful question: "How can you hate me when you don't even know me?" Prepare to be challenged to rethink how we and our students engage with those who seem the furthest from us.  

Here are some of Davis’s key recommendations for educators: 

• Create opportunities for students to engage with and learn from people with unfamiliar backgrounds and perspectives. Go beyond designated "diversity" events or months.
• Teach history honestly, including the shameful parts that students can learn from.
• Encourage students to “walk across the cafeteria” and to have conversations with those outside of their affinity group. Davis attributes his propensity for empathy to his early school experiences in highly diverse classrooms.)
• Encourage students to form groups based on common interests rather than race or ethnicity.

Notable quotes about Daryl Davis:

"Daryl Davis is a national treasure—he's living proof it's possible to talk people out of their hate...If everyone followed his lead, the world would be a more respectful, thoughtful place." - Adam Grant, #1 New Your Times bestselling author, host of Re: Thinking podcast

"I have a lot of respect for Daryl Davis." - Former KKK Imperial Wizard

"Daryl Davis has proven that when you open your heart to someone, you give them a chance to open their heart to you." - Morgan Freeman, Academy Award-winning actor, producer, and narrator. 

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This episode is part of our series on our sister podcast, Teacher Stories, on what schools can do to help save our democracy. Guests include Dr. Marvin W. Berkowitz, McDonnell Professor of Character Education at the Center for Character Education and Citizenship at the University of Missouri at St. Louis, and Dr. Kashina Bell, Deputy Superintendent for the School District of University City in St. Louis, Missouri. Both talk about character education - what it looks like, how it's done, and why it's vital to our democracy.

"I think the concept of the common good as a concept is an endangered species in democracies," Dr. Berkowitz says. "Every educator affects kids' character. And we want them to do it intentionally, and positively, and effectively...There is no moral future without moral children, and there's no democratic future without democratic children. Education is a critical piece of that."

Speaking about her former role as a school principal, Dr. Bell says, "I inherited a school that was really forgotten about...The teachers didn't want to be there. The kids didn't want to be there...We began the process of bringing our system back to health...We began establishing some values...We rooted ourselves in a common language to define our collective and individual responsibility to one another as well as to the community." In addition to boosting academic achievement, Bell says, "...our kids were no longer running away from the school. They really wanted to be in school, and they began to thrive."

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American democracy cannot survive without well-functioning schools that enable students to become good citizens and that teach them to appreciate what it means to live under a system whose only boss are the people themselves. That’s the claim my guest Brook Manville makes in his new book, The Civic Bargain – How Democracies Survive. 

 In this wide-ranging conversation about civic education, Manville says schools must cultivate “civic friendship,” one of seven conditions that have been present in all democratic societies going back to ancient Greece. “[Civic friendship] does not mean that you agree with everybody or that you necessarily personally like everybody,” Manville says. “It means that you know how to get along with them, you have enough respect for them, and they have enough respect for you…The way in which students listen, learn, and speak to one another takes place in a well-moderated classroom. That’s something you want children coming out of school that is deep in their souls by the time they graduate.” Manville also sees the need for more civic friendship among the adult stakeholders. “It's so discouraging,” he says, “when school board meetings turn into ‘riot fests.’ It's exactly what shouldn't be happening in a school. Not to say that there aren't emotionally good and valid points that are being exchanged, but part of civic education has to be the mindset and the process of working with tomorrow's fellow citizens, which young students will be.”

 During this episode, I play an audio clip from Marvin Berkowitz, an expert on character education and a guest on a previous episode. Berkowitz says, “In democracies, we've lost the sense of what the common good is. Democracies have sort of devolved into a mathematical enterprise where everybody votes for self-interest, out of fear, out of hatred, bigotry, or out of ignorance. That never was supposed to be what democracy is democracy.” Berkowitz goes on to say, “There's no moral future without moral children, and there's no democratic future without democratic children…Character education is a critical piece of all that.” 

Tune in to hear Manville’s response to Berkowitz and his call for character education. And find out what Manville thinks schools can do to promote civic education, another of the seven conditions he says all democracies depend on. 

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Curiosity has been a common theme in this podcast. Conflict experts like my guests Amanda Ripley, Monica Guzman, and Peter Coleman say being curious and less judgmental is often a better way out of toxic conflict than making stronger arguments or presenting more facts. And, as we heard from our recent guest, Tim Shriver, it’s a much better alternative than treating one’s adversaries with contempt, which often makes matters worse. “Contempt only makes an enemy for your cause,” he says.  

But how does curiosity work? How can we be curious about people whose perspectives we reject? What makes us incurious? I have not encountered anyone more qualified to answer these questions than Scott Shigeoka. Scott has devoted decades thinking about, studying, and talking with people about curiosity, and he recently wrote a book on the subject called Seek - How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World. His study of the concept leads him to distinguish between shallow and deep curiosity and to warn readers about “predatory curiosity” and “performative curiosity.” 

In this episode, Scott explains why curiosity is so powerful, not just as a way out of toxic conflict but as a path to understanding the world and others on a deeper level. For these reasons, it’s something that must be cultivated in schools.  

One of the questions I was curious about is, What makes students, or all of us for that matter, incurious?  What gets in the way? Are some of us simply born to be more curious, or can it be taught? Can the desire to understand be extinguished? Tune in to hear Scott’s answers to these questions and his reflections on the various ways curiosity can spark deeper learning and strengthen our schools.  

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In our previous episode (Ep. 36), Tim Shriver America’s widening political and social divides are, surprisingly, not due to our differences. “We’ve always had differences,” he says, “Contempt is the problem.” Shriver explains why treating others with dignity is more likely to produce the results we want and why contempt usually does the opposite.  He and his colleagues created the Dignity Index to help us recognize the various ways we can regard our adversaries—either with contempt or with dignity. 

In the current episode, Futernick interviews four college students who are ambassadors for Students for Dignity, an organization with over 25 chapters on college campuses across the county.  Preston Brightwell, the founder of this organization, also participates. Each student explains how he or she uses the Dignity Index to assess their interactions and help others see the virtues of dignity over contempt.  

Key questions addressed in this conversation:

• Why did you choose to get involved with Student for Dignity?
• How have you experienced contempt or been contemptuous yourself?
• What fuels contempt (adult models, social media)?
• What pushback do you get from other students who may be reluctant to treat their adversaries with dignity?
• What can students do if they want to get involved?

Notable Quotes

I feel like there are moments where we push for a world of dignity, but we don't hold friends accountable when they're being contemptuous. And it's the level at which when you're throwing contempt at me or my loved ones, I will react, but when my loved ones throw contempt at you, I'm going to turn a blind eye. - Iradukunda Manikandan

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I would say what frequently fuels contempt is that it's much easier. It gives you that spike of adrenaline. You tend to build your in-group because the minute that you say something fiery on social media, everyone who agrees with you is like, YEAH! And then you feel seen. It's much less interesting to say, “I don't agree with that.” And no one watches that on TikTok. - Alexa Merril

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I really think contempt breeds contempt. When our dignity is violated, it's easy and almost justified to respond with contempt. And so it's just contempt, contempt, contempt. And somebody has to be the one to take a step back and say, “I am going to respond with dignity.” - David Witt 

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Tim Shriver is a member of the Kennedy family, Chairman of Special Olympics International, co-founder of UNITE, and a former teacher. In this wide-ranging conversation with host Ken Futernick, Shriver describes a tool he co-created called the Dignity Index, and he describes how educators are using it to address our widening political and social divides. “We built it because there's an issue in our culture, in our families, in our homes, and in our schools that we haven't paid that much attention to. And the issue is how we treat each other when we disagree.” The Index is a framework that allows students (and politicians and educators) to examine their interactions, with the goal of reducing contempt and promoting a sense of dignity toward others. “Most people think the problem is that we have such [great] differences in our country. Our view is that's not a problem,” Shriver says. “We've always had differences…Difference is not the problem…Contempt is the problem.”

How Educators Are Using the Index

Shriver says students in history classes are using the Index to score speeches from historical figures like Abraham Lincoln, William Jennings Bryan, Harriet Tubman, and Martin Luther King Jr. “Students learn how to dissect the rhetoric in our political history, looking for whether this particular figure used dignity or contempt. And, we have other elementary school teachers who are creating codes of conduct using the Index. A school district in the Salt Lake City School District,” Shriver says, “has created what they call the five and up rule.” When students disagree, teachers help students use language in the upper half of the index (i.e., levels 5-8) - language that views others with dignity rather than contempt. 

Shriver says his organization has received requests from school boards asking for help with people who are “fired up and angry” over one issue or another. They want to know how to get them to use dignity language rather than dehumanizing and humiliating people with different perspectives.

Isn’t Contemp Warranted at Times?

Reflecting on an objection some might have to this approach, Ken asks, “Aren’t there some acts and some people who just aren’t dignified themselves, whose acts are awful. How can you hold this belief about a person who commits heinous acts or has really awful political views that hurt people… How can you (or should you) still feel a sense of dignity towards that person or those actions?”

The problem, Shriver says, is that the alternative, contempt, “makes an enemy for your cause.” Whether the target of one’s contempt is a politician or another student, the outcome is always the same. That person’s views and actions are more, not less, likely to persist. What makes matters worse, Shriver says, is that contempt in today’s culture has become “glorified and rewarded, and it’s making all of us less happy and less healthy.”

Schools Play a Vital Role

Shriver concludes with this inspiring reflection on educators' critical role in holding our nation together. “I started my career as a teacher. When I look to the institutions of this nation, and I look to who and where are people who know that everybody deserves a chance, where are the people who know that hope and development are the actual work of community building and nation building? Where are the people who trust that new ideas can emerge? It's schools.”

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