In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam sit down with Joe Heller, CMO of Discover Philadelphia, to tackle one of the biggest challenges facing DMOs today: how to break through the sea of sameness in meetings and conventions marketing.

The conversation explores why traditional advertising often falls flat in the B2B space and how destinations can shift toward disruptive promotions and attention-grabbing tactics that make a lasting impression on meeting planners and attendees alike.

Joe shares how Philadelphia approaches meetings and conventions with creative strategies—from airport takeovers to cheesesteak giveaways—and how DMOs can borrow lessons from SaaS companies to nurture leads and build stronger planner relationships. Stuart and Adam add their own experiences, from Myrtle Beach’s pickleball tournaments at trade shows to the power of AI tools that personalize outreach at scale.

Key takeaways include:

If you’ve ever wondered how to make your destination stand out in the competitive meetings market, this episode offers practical ideas, candid examples, and fresh ways to rethink B2B marketing.

CTA: Enjoying the show? Leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and share this episode with a colleague. It helps us keep pushing the industry forward.

This week’s episode goes deep into one of the most complex and often misunderstood conversations around artificial intelligence: its environmental impact. Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker are joined by returning guest C.A. Clark, who first appeared back in Episode 7 to talk about AI ethics. This time, the three pick up a conversation that started off-mic and turned into one of the most challenging, thought-provoking discussions we’ve had on the show.

Before diving into the main topic, we kick off with Stu’s News and highlight Brand USA’s new “America the Beautiful” campaign website, built in collaboration with Mindtrip and Miles Partnership. The site uses conversational AI to blend search, social, and interactivity, pointing toward a future where destination websites become more dynamic, personalized, and conversational. We explore how this model could influence the way DMOs think about their digital ecosystems moving forward.

From there, the focus shifts to the heart of the episode: AI’s environmental footprint. This issue has generated headlines, hesitation, and heated debate—but also a lot of confusion. Together, we dig into:

 • Context and comparisons – Why asking about AI’s carbon emissions without comparing them to activities like streaming Netflix, scrolling TikTok, or eating a hamburger can be misleading.

 • Scale vs. individual use – A single AI prompt may have the impact of a few seconds of TV, yet the aggregate demand across millions of users raises larger questions about infrastructure and power.

 • Efficiency gains – Google’s latest research shows AI models becoming 33 times more energy efficient and 44 times lower in carbon footprint in just a year, underscoring how fast improvements are happening.

 • Industry focus – Why some boards and organizations risk becoming distracted by environmental arguments, potentially at the expense of preparing for seismic shifts in consumer behavior driven by AI.

 • The bigger picture – How AI might not only consume energy but also help us optimize industries, reduce waste, and solve environmental challenges we’ve struggled to tackle for decades.

Throughout the conversation, the three emphasize intellectual honesty over ideology. They call out the dangers of apathy, the risks of letting “AI fatigue” stall progress, and the need for DMOs to move beyond fear or excuses. Whether you’re an AI skeptic or already experimenting with it daily, this episode challenges you to think more deeply about the trade-offs, realities, and opportunities ahead.

Key Takeaways:

 • AI is far from carbon-neutral, but its impact per use is smaller than many fear—and shrinking fast.

 • Environmental comparisons matter: a hamburger, a flight, or a Netflix binge has exponentially higher impact than a ChatGPT prompt.

 • The conversation should shift from fear to strategy: how will AI reshape consumer expectations, and what must DMOs do now to stay relevant?

 • Experimentation is no longer optional—leaders who avoid AI risk falling behind as the pace of change accelerates.

Why listen?

This episode embodies what Destination Discourse aims to do: have honest, nuanced conversations that the industry might shy away from, while pushing professionals to ask tougher questions and prepare for what’s next. It’s not about telling you what to think—it’s about giving you the context to think differently.

If you find this episode valuable, share it with your colleagues, leave a review, and subscribe so you don’t miss future conversations shaping the future of destination marketing.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam are joined by Christian Mengel of St. Joseph CVB—who is not the dating site, despite the name—for a compelling discussion about what destination marketers can learn from the decline of traditional media.

Christian brings his background in journalism to unpack how newspapers, TV, and radio lost their position as trusted sources, and how DMOs may be on a similar path if they don’t adapt to shifting consumer behavior and technology.

They explore:

 • The new marketing equation: Attention + Trust = Success

 • Why a Tampa real estate agent’s viral home tours offer a masterclass in modern content strategy

 • How media lost control—and how AI threatens to do the same to DMOs

 • Why consistency, creativity, and community connection are the new currency

 • How to build coalitions of creators to shape narrative and build trust

 • Why you can’t just claim authenticity—you have to earn it

 • What Myrtle Beach is doing to future-proof its voice with a local Creator Collective

This episode is equal parts warning, wisdom, and inspiration for DMOs ready to evolve before it’s too late.

Call to Action:

If you’re in destination marketing, don’t keep this episode to yourself. Share it with a colleague, subscribe on your favorite platform, and join us in redefining what it means to be relevant in the AI era.

We brought Destination Discourse to the main stage at ESTO 2025 for a special live debate—and it did not disappoint. In this high-energy session, Stuart and Adam tackled two provocative questions shaping the future of destination marketing:

 1. Will DMO websites be irrelevant in 5 years?

 2. Will the ROI of paid media continue to decline?

With the audience choosing which side each of us had to argue (regardless of our actual opinions), we explored both sides of the argument—pushing boundaries, challenging assumptions, and asking what the future might hold for destination marketing.

Key themes included:

 • The rise of AI and conversational interfaces replacing traditional search behavior

 • The shifting value of brand in the prompt era

 • The battle between OTAs and destination-owned ecosystems

 • Whether performance metrics are becoming a crutch or a compass

 • What DMO websites should evolve into—if they’re going to matter at all

 • Why upper funnel investment might be the smartest play in a fragmented media landscape

We wrapped with audience Q&A and left the room with more questions than answers—which was exactly the point.

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Takeaways:

 • Don’t build a website. Build an immersive, personalized platform.

 • Brand matters more than ever when AI chooses what to surface.

 • Paid media isn’t dying—it’s just getting more expensive and harder to measure.

 • If you’re not in the prompt, you’re not in the trip.

 • DMOs must stop measuring what’s easy and start measuring what matters.

 • The future isn’t fixed—and that should excite us.

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Call to Action:

Whether you were in the room or not, we hope this episode gets you thinking differently. Share it with a colleague, spark a conversation, and stay tuned for more Destination Discourse episodes that challenge conventional wisdom.

In this jam-packed episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam welcome Kristen Adamo, President & CEO of Go Providence, for a powerful conversation about the evolving role of destination marketing organizations—and more specifically—the CEO’s role in product development and community stewardship.

They explore:

• How Go Providence helped save WaterFire and turned it into an economic development lever

• Why advocacy starts with being at the table, and sometimes means setting the table

• How marketers are uniquely positioned to become CEOs (and why more of them should be)

• The difference between promoting a destination and shaping it

• The importance of “marketing the marketing”—including leave-behind ROI cards, op-eds, and internal newsletters

• Why product development is brand management—and the risk of promoting an experience that doesn’t exist

• How DMOs can gain influence with elected officials and avoid being seen as a “nice-to-have”

Takeaways:

→ If you’re not involved in product, you may be promoting something that’s no longer competitive.

→ The most successful DMOs act as connectors, collaborators, and quiet power players—without needing the credit.

→ Marketing skills (storytelling, communication, vision) are becoming critical CEO traits in a post-COVID world.

→ Local advocacy isn’t optional anymore—it’s a core part of destination leadership.

→ Want to be indispensable? Tie every initiative back to room nights and community impact.

In this no-guest, think-out-loud episode, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker tackle one of the most urgent shifts in destination marketing: how AI-powered trip planning and booking could change everything DMOs know about awareness, attribution, and conversion. They unpack Google Ads’ new branded search metric and why it may signal a swing back toward brand-first strategies, then dive into the coming challenge of Large Language Model (LLM) optimization. From schema markup and unique first-person content to integrated paid partnerships and community-driven brand amplification, they explore what it will take to make sure your destination is “in the prompt” when AI tools start recommending and booking trips. This is an unfiltered conversation about the pendulum swing from clicks back to brand, the blending of paid, earned, and owned media, and why attention, not just impressions, will be the new currency.

Takeaways:

 • Why Google’s new branded search metric hints at a return to brand-first marketing.

 • How AI trip planning tools may bypass your website entirely and what to do about it.

 • LLM optimization basics: schema, unique content, and authoritative sources.

 • Why DMOs must think beyond their own brand to elevate the destination’s brand.

 • How to make paid media dollars work harder through integrated, multi-channel partnerships.

Call to Action:

If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe, rate, and share Destination Discourse with a friend in the industry. And if you think we’re wrong or have your own perspective on the “brand in the prompt” era, reach out to join the conversation.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker welcome Dan Janes from Madden Media for a wide-ranging conversation that connects the dots between AI, agency structures, RFPs, and the way destinations approach marketing funnels.

The trio kicks things off with Stu’s News on the release of ChatGPT-5, exploring its leap in reasoning, ability to understand intent, and potential to transform how teams work and problem-solve. From there, they dig into Dan’s “feisty” topic: why RFPs are often built for the past instead of the future—and how shifting them from a checklist of services to outcome-driven goals could spark innovation and better results.

They also examine why the traditional marketing funnel no longer reflects today’s consumer behavior, what destinations should do to adapt, and why multifunctional, agile agency teams may be better equipped to thrive in this environment.

Key Takeaways:

 • AI is evolving fast—ChatGPT-5’s ability to understand intent and adapt its approach could revolutionize destination marketing workflows.

 • Outcome over process—RFPs should be written around the results you want, not just the list of services you think you need.

 • The marketing funnel is broken—today’s traveler has control, choice, and a more active role in the journey, requiring destinations to rethink their approach.

 • Agency structures must adapt—cross-functional, nimble teams are better equipped to respond to rapid shifts in consumer behavior and technology.

 • Content + context are key—ownable stories and hyper-relevant messaging will win trust and drive action.

If you’re in the DMO or agency world, this episode will push you to challenge assumptions, rethink outdated processes, and explore what it takes to stay relevant in an AI-driven, consumer-controlled era.

If you found value in this episode, please like, subscribe, and share it with a friend—whether they’re on the DMO side, the agency side, or just a fellow marketing nerd who loves a good rethink.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam welcome long-time listener and industry friend Caleb Sullivan for a candid conversation about what makes the vendor–DMO relationship thrive—or fail. Drawing from experiences on both sides of the table, they share the right (and wrong) ways to approach business development in the tourism space, why trust and authenticity are more valuable than a hard sell, and how playing the long game often pays off. From pandemic-era Clubhouse connections to lessons learned from awkward first pitches, the trio dives into practical tips for vendors trying to break in, DMOs evaluating partners, and anyone navigating this close-knit “friendship economy.” Expect stories, straight talk, and plenty of good-natured ribbing.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

 • Why authenticity and listening beat a one-size-fits-all sales pitch

 • How to say “no” in a way that keeps the door open for future opportunities

 • Why vendors should focus on creating value beyond the transaction

 • The role of trust, likability, and long-term commitment in closing deals

 • Ways DMOs can give vendors a fair shot without wasting time

 • How to leverage industry events for meaningful connections

If you enjoy the show, make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode—and share it with someone in the tourism industry who could use these insights.

In this episode, Stuart and Adam are joined by Steven Totten of Visit Phoenix for an unfiltered conversation on risk, innovation, and the sameness plaguing the travel and tourism industry. The trio tackles the dangers of navel-gazing, the repetitive creative churn from agencies, and the cultural fear that stifles innovation across DMOs. Stuart shares behind-the-scenes details on the launch of Charlie’s Place, a six-part podcast three years in the making, now picked up by Pushkin Industries. It’s a masterclass in place-based storytelling and branded entertainment done right.

Steven explains why Visit Phoenix is approaching its DMO like a startup, embracing in-kind partnerships, retail-inspired merchandise drops, and intentionally choosing a creative agency outside the travel industry. The conversation dives deep into why risk-taking is feared, how comfort and inertia dominate DMO culture, and what it takes to break free—including strong internal communication, stakeholder education, and a shift from celebrating outcomes to celebrating strategic courage.

Key Topics:

 • Launch of Charlie’s Place podcast with Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Pushkin

 • The problem with outsourcing vision to agencies

 • Risk aversion and fear-based culture in tourism

 • Why most DMO org charts and funding models are all over the map

 • The difference between celebrating risk vs. normalizing it

 • Startup mindset and treating innovation as the core mission

 • How Visit Phoenix is shifting perception through bold creative and ROI-focused partnerships

In Episode 40, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker welcome Jim Harenchar, President of RMG USA, for a deep (and at times spicy) conversation on marketing attribution, ROI, and the complicated relationship between DMOs, agencies, and vendors. What starts as golf banter quickly tees off into a much larger dialogue about how—and whether—the travel industry is measuring what truly matters. From changing consumer behaviors to the dangers of over-attributing performance to the wrong channels, this episode challenges long-held assumptions and makes the case for smarter, more collaborative, and more nuanced measurement.

Topics Covered:

 • Golf as a growth engine: post-COVID trends, off-course vs. on-course participation, and product development opportunities

 • Why DMOs need to adapt to shifting demographics and behaviors

 • The problem with vanity metrics, over-attribution, and last-click bias

 • ROI vs. awareness: why both matter but need different yardsticks

 • Challenges with funding models, resource constraints, and vendor overload

 • Agency dynamics, incentive misalignment, and the role of experimentation budgets

 • A call for industry-wide frameworks and shared measurement models

Notable Quotes:

 • “You wouldn’t measure success for hunting the same way you’d measure success for farming.” – Stuart

 • “Sometimes we’re not promoting golf—we’re promoting a bad golf experience.” – Adam

 • “If we continue to do the same things, expecting the same results, we’re fooling ourselves.” – Stuart

 • “Awareness is valuable. Without it, no one can transact with you.” – Adam

 • “Let’s stop selling silver bullets and start selling collaboration.” – Stuart

Next Up:

Stuart and Adam will be live at ESTO—bring your questions, your hot takes, and your love for the Stu’s News jingle. Yes, there might be swag.