Episode Summary:

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker welcome analytics expert Melissa Kavanagh to dive into the complexities of Google Analytics 4 (GA4), the challenges DMO marketers face with data, and the best strategies for leveraging analytics in destination marketing. From rants about GA4’s clunky interface to strategies for collecting and using first-party data, this episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the ever-changing digital marketing landscape in tourism.

Key Topics Covered:

 1. Google Analytics 4: Love It or Hate It?

 • Why GA4 feels like a “beta product” despite being the industry standard.

 • Key differences between GA4 and Universal Analytics.

 • Practical tips for marketers navigating GA4’s challenging interface.

 2. Data Philosophy for DMOs:

 • Why DMOs need to define and own their data philosophy.

 • How relying solely on agencies can lead to subjective data analysis.

 • Building an in-house analytics team to drive long-term success.

 3. The Power of First-Party Data:

 • The importance of collecting purposeful first-party data.

 • Creative ways to gather useful consumer insights without being intrusive.

 • Why personalization and conversational interfaces are the future of destination websites.

 4. Rethinking DMO Websites:

 • How to create a more dynamic and personalized web experience.

 • Leveraging interactive content, video, and consumer-driven site navigation.

 • Why “You Can’t Put Traffic in the Bank” and what metrics DMOs should focus on instead.

 5. Practical Takeaways:

 • Always be testing! Experiment with data-driven campaigns to refine your strategies.

 • Be transparent with data collection and focus on consumer-first marketing.

 • Shift from transactional website design to personalized consumer conversations.

In this engaging and provocative episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker welcome back industry veteran Will Seccombe for a deep dive into the emerging challenges facing destination marketing organizations (DMOs). They discuss how shifting narratives around government efficiency, financial transparency, and public accountability could reshape the tourism industry. With “DOGE” (Department of Government Efficiency) audits on the horizon, the hosts explore how DMOs can prepare for increased scrutiny while driving community impact.

1. The Government Efficiency Reckoning:

 • The hosts unpack the concept of “DOGE” audits and their implications for DMOs.

 • With heightened media attention and political pressure on government budgets, DMOs could become targets of investigations into perceived inefficiencies.

2. Proactive Accountability:

 • The team discusses why DMOs must be prepared for audits that go beyond financial compliance.

 • They explore strategies for justifying budgets, optimizing operations, and shifting internal mindsets from reactive defense to proactive transparency.

3. The Power of Public Perception:

 • They emphasize the importance of winning the “court of public opinion” by communicating the real impact of DMOs on their communities.

 • Success stories from tourism-driven businesses can become powerful defenses against public criticism.

4. Transparency Through Storytelling:

 • DMOs must combine data-driven insights with human-centered stories to demonstrate their economic and social value.

 • Adam highlights the potential of building a “local content army” to amplify the DMO’s message within the community.

5. Rethinking Budgeting and Strategy:

 • The group advocates for a “zero-based budgeting” approach that evaluates every expense from scratch.

 • They challenge DMOs to audit not only their budgets but also their long-standing marketing strategies and programs.

Memorable Quotes:

 • “It’s not just about the audits. The real battleground is the court of public opinion.” — Stuart Butler

 • “If it becomes cool to question government spending, we need to make it cooler to show our community impact.” — Adam Stoker

 • “The worst thing we can do is stick our heads in the sand. We need to be ready, transparent, and proactive.” — Will Seccombe

Actionable Takeaways for DMOs:

 • Audit Your Processes: Evaluate not just financials but operational efficiencies, marketing strategies, and community impact.

 • Tell Better Stories: Use data-backed narratives and testimonials from local businesses to build public support.

 • Engage Community Ambassadors: Build relationships with trusted community leaders and influencers to champion tourism’s value.

 • Prepare for the Spotlight: Assume that scrutiny is coming and build internal processes accordingly.

In this lively episode of Destination Discourse, hosts Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker sit down with Patrick Harrison from Visit Tampa Bay to dive into the fascinating world of guerrilla marketing for DMOs. This engaging conversation explores how creative, scrappy, and grassroots campaigns can amplify destination marketing efforts—especially when budgets are tight or competition is fierce.

Patrick shares insights from his years of experience leading innovative marketing strategies in Tampa Bay, including some memorable campaigns like creating an obituary for winter in the Chicago Tribune and staging mock protests in Boston to rally for warmer weather. The discussion highlights how DMOs can think beyond traditional marketing, build a team culture that fosters bold ideas, and leverage local partnerships to create campaigns that resonate emotionally with travelers.

Key Highlights:

 • Stu’s News: A discussion on Miami Beach’s breakup with spring breakers, including the clever campaign’s impact on visitor demographics and its implications for targeting high-yield travelers.

 • What is Guerrilla Marketing? Patrick defines guerrilla marketing as being scrappy, disruptive, and grassroots. He shares how Visit Tampa Bay has used creative tactics to punch above its weight in competitive markets.

 • Notable Guerrilla Campaigns:

 • An obituary for winter in Chicago to encourage Floridian vacations.

 • A staged “protest” in Boston featuring actors advocating for warmer weather.

 • Team Culture for Innovation: How Patrick’s leadership philosophy nurtures creativity and risk-taking within Visit Tampa Bay, leading to standout marketing strategies.

 • Collaboration with the Community: Patrick emphasizes the importance of engaging local businesses, chefs, and artisans to build authentic, unique experiences for visitors.

 • Creative Extensions of the Tampa Brand: From Tampa-themed beer and coffee to a signature scent, Patrick explains how these unique offerings enhance destination storytelling and leave lasting impressions on visitors.

Key Takeaways for DMOs:

 1. Start Small: Test simple, authentic guerrilla marketing ideas tailored to your community’s unique strengths.

 2. Be Bold but Thoughtful: Risk-taking campaigns can stand out, but they must align with your destination’s identity and goals.

 3. Foster a Creative Team Environment: Encourage open dialogue, brainstorming, and freedom to experiment with unconventional ideas.

 4. Leverage Partnerships: Collaborate with local businesses to expand your destination’s reach and resources.

 5. Lead with Emotion: Focus on creating emotional connections with travelers, not just transactional relationships.

This episode is packed with actionable insights and entertaining stories, perfect for DMOs looking to think outside the box. Tune in to discover how guerrilla marketing could transform your destination’s marketing strategy!

Guest: Jake Steinman, TravelAbility

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam welcome Jake Steinman, founder of TravelAbility, to delve into the importance of accessibility in destination marketing. They explore how DMOs can better prepare their destinations to be inclusive for travelers with disabilities, focusing on actionable strategies and industry insights.

Key Topics Covered:

 1. The Current State of Accessibility in Tourism:

Jake shares insights on how destinations can enhance their accessibility offerings, emphasizing the significance of creating landing pages dedicated to accessibility information.

 2. Understanding the Value of Accessibility:

The hosts discuss the business case for accessibility, including its impact on shoulder season travel and how it can disperse visitor traffic, promoting sustainability within destinations.

 3. Practical Steps for DMOs:

 • Developing partnerships with local disability organizations.

 • Highlighting accessible features in marketing materials.

 • Leveraging certification programs like those offered by IBCCES to ensure accommodations meet the needs of travelers with disabilities.

 4. Crowdsourcing Accessibility Information:

Jake highlights how DMOs can use feedback from visitors to enhance their accessibility features and maintain up-to-date resources.

 5. Innovative Tools and Resources:

Discussion on virtual tours and their role in pre-travel planning for travelers with various accessibility needs.

Takeaways:

 • Accessibility is not only a moral imperative but also a strategic advantage.

 • By enhancing accessibility, destinations can improve visitor experiences and broaden their market appeal.

 • Effective communication and transparency about accessibility offerings are essential to building trust with travelers.

Make sure to check out this insightful episode to learn how your DMO can embrace accessibility to foster inclusivity and drive sustainable tourism.

Guest:

Zeek Coleman - Data Strategy Expert

Episode Summary:

In this insightful episode, Stuart and Adam sit down with Zeek Coleman, a leading voice in destination marketing analytics, to tackle a critical topic: Are DMOs misinterpreting their data? Together, they explore how confusion between causation and correlation can lead to flawed strategies and wasted resources. Zeek shares practical tips and examples to help DMOs make smarter, data-driven decisions that truly impact their destinations.

Key Topics Covered:

1. Understanding Causation vs. Correlation:

 • Zeek breaks down the difference between causation and correlation in data analysis.

 • Examples of common pitfalls in destination marketing, where correlations are mistaken for causation.

2. Real-World Consequences:

 • How misinterpreting data can lead to ineffective campaigns and misallocated budgets.

 • The importance of asking the right questions to uncover causal relationships.

3. Tools and Techniques for Better Analysis:

 • Zeek introduces methods for validating causation, such as A/B testing and controlled experiments.

 • How DMOs can implement these strategies, even with limited resources.

4. The Role of Storytelling in Data:

 • Why presenting data with context and narrative is essential for stakeholder buy-in.

 • Zeek emphasizes the need for data literacy within DMO teams to make informed decisions.

Takeaways:

 • DMOs need to critically evaluate their data to avoid costly mistakes.

 • Embracing a culture of experimentation and validation can drive more impactful marketing efforts.

 • Data is only as valuable as the questions you ask and the actions you take based on the insights.

Guest:

C.A. Clark – AI Lead at Miles Partnership

Episode Summary: In this thought-provoking episode, Stuart and Adam are joined by AI expert C.A. Clark to tackle one of the most pressing questions in modern destination marketing: Is it ethical for DMOs (Destination Marketing Organizations) to use AI? Together, they explore the ethical boundaries of AI use, its implications for both marketers and consumers, and where DMOs need to draw the line when implementing AI-driven strategies.

Key Topics Covered:

Introduction of C.A. Clark:

C.A. shares his background in AI at Miles Partnership and his experience with the AI Opener program for destinations, which explores how AI technology affects marketing and visitor engagement.

AI in Destination Marketing:

C.A. emphasizes the rapid rise of AI in tourism marketing, especially how it is reshaping efficiency, productivity, and creativity within DMOs.

Discussion on the importance of building "AI literacy" within destination marketing teams to take full advantage of the technology.

Ethical Considerations of Using AI:

Pro: AI can drastically improve efficiency and innovation within DMOs, allowing marketers to focus on creative and strategic tasks while AI handles repetitive work.

Con: Ethical concerns arise regarding transparency, particularly when AI-generated content (such as images or text) is used without disclosing it to the consumer.

The hosts discuss whether destinations need to disclose the use of AI, especially when AI content may not fully reflect reality.

Manipulation vs. Enhancement:

Stuart argues that DMOs have always used tools to manipulate reality (e.g., editing photos to look more appealing), but questions arise around how much manipulation is too much when AI becomes indistinguishable from reality.

Pro: AI can make it easier to represent destinations in the best light.

Con: Using AI to generate fully fictional content could mislead visitors, damaging the trust between the destination and consumer.

The Consumer's Role in AI Ethics:

Ultimately, consumer expectations and reactions will determine whether AI usage is accepted or rejected in the tourism industry. The team agrees that AI use needs to align with visitor expectations for authenticity.

The discussion shifts to AI-driven influencers and whether the use of virtual characters or avatars is acceptable in destination marketing.

AI and Workforce Impact:

Pro: AI can enhance human capabilities, helping teams work smarter, not harder.

Con: Concerns around AI potentially replacing human jobs, especially in areas like content creation, press releases, and customer service.

Legal and Ethical Guardrails:

The panel touches on the lack of clear legal guidelines regarding AI, making ethics even more crucial for marketers to consider.

Example: Character.ai and the risks of AI-generated personas, such as encouraging harmful behavior, highlighting the need for safeguards in the use of AI technologies.

The Future of AI in DMOs:

Predictions for the future use of AI in destination marketing and whether AI will require new rules, both from a regulatory and ethical standpoint.

Takeaways:

DMOs must find a balance between embracing AI-driven efficiency and maintaining transparency and trust with their audience.

Ethics, while subjective, will play a critical role in determining how far AI can go in destination marketing.

Marketers should aim to stay ahead of AI developments by fostering AI literacy and creating frameworks for responsible use.

Special Guest:

Amir Eylon, President & CEO of Longwoods International

Episode Overview:

Welcome to Episode 6 of Destination Discourse! This week, hosts Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker are joined by a very special guest, Amir Eylon from Longwoods International. In this episode, the team dives into one of the most critical questions for the destination marketing industry: Are residents the most important stakeholders for DMOs? The discussion takes an in-depth look at the evolving role of destination organizations and how their primary purpose might not be solely about bringing in visitors—but improving the quality of life for residents.

Key Points Discussed:

Stu's News – Copenhagen’s Innovative Approach: The episode kicks off with a breakdown of the “CopenHappy” campaign, where tourists are incentivized to engage in sustainable behaviors in exchange for rewards. Amir and the hosts compare this carrot-based approach with the more heavy-handed tactics of destinations like Barcelona, exploring what this says about visitor engagement and community impact. 

https://www.visitcopenhagen.com/copenpay

The Role of Residents in Destination Marketing: Amir shares insights from years of research at Longwoods International, emphasizing that residents aren’t just another stakeholder group—they’re the most crucial audience for any destination. He recounts how COVID-19 forced many DMOs to engage locally for the first time and why that’s shaped the future of the industry.

The Disconnect Between DMOs and Community Sentiment: One of the most powerful moments in the episode is when Amir discusses the frequent communication gap between DMOs and their residents. Often, the first time residents hear about major projects is through the media, leading to resistance and a sense of being left out of the conversation. He highlights the importance of proactive engagement.

Building a Long-Term Vision: Adam takes the contrarian stance in this episode, pointing out that many small DMOs face challenges in prioritizing resident sentiment due to funding models and political structures. His argument sparks a lively debate on how destinations can redefine their success metrics beyond room nights and visitor numbers to include community well-being.

Actionable Strategies for DMOs: Stuart shares actionable strategies for DMOs looking to shift their focus to residents, including:

Building relationships with community leaders and detractors.

Establishing communication channels specifically for local engagement.

Creating narratives that align DMO goals with community priorities.

The Power of Community Engagement: Amir outlines the steps DMOs can take to become community champions, such as including local representatives on their boards, attending city council meetings, and volunteering in the community. By incorporating resident input from the beginning, DMOs can foster a culture of collaboration and shared success.

Episode Highlights:

“If you share, people will criticize. If you engage, they’ll defend.” 

“The problem isn’t necessarily incentives; it’s the kpis and the narrative.”

“Residents should not be an afterthought. They are the heart of the community and why tourism exists in the first place.” 

Conclusion:

This episode wraps up with a strong call to action for DMOs to rethink their primary mission. If the true purpose is to improve the quality of life for residents, then every campaign, initiative, and visitor attraction should be viewed through the lens of community impact.

Call to Action:

If you have a burning question or topic suggestion for the show, or if you’d like to be a guest on Destination Discourse, reach out to Stuart Butler or Adam Stoker through LinkedIn or email. We’re building a platform to tackle the biggest questions in our industry—and we want your voice to be part of it.

Check ou Amir's new podcast:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-gonna-eat-that/id1764057114

Episode Summary:

In this special bonus episode, we dive into how the recent election cycle signals a broader shift in the media landscape and what it means for destination marketing organizations (DMOs). With traditional news outlets losing ground and social media, podcasts, and independent content creators gaining influence, DMOs must adapt to this evolving environment to stay relevant and impactful.

Key Topics Covered:

The Evolving Role of Media During Elections:

Discover how this election season showcased the growing dominance of digital platforms like social media and podcasts over traditional news channels. What lessons can DMOs take from these trends to enhance their own outreach efforts?

Podcasts: The New Frontline for Engagement:

Podcasts are not just for entertainment anymore—they’ve become powerful tools for shaping public opinion and fostering deeper connections. We explore how DMOs can leverage this medium to tell authentic stories and engage with travelers.

Social Media’s Influence on Public Perception:

From influencers to viral campaigns, social media played a pivotal role in shaping voter behavior. Learn how DMOs can adopt similar strategies to drive awareness and engagement for their destinations.

The Decline of Traditional News Sources:

With audiences shifting away from traditional outlets, DMOs need to rethink their reliance on earned media and explore new ways to control their narrative.

Embracing Owned Media:

We underscore the importance of investing in owned media platforms—such as blogs, newsletters, and now podcasts—to build trust, foster loyalty, and provide consistent messaging amid a fragmented media ecosystem.

Why This Matters:

As the media landscape continues to transform, DMOs must evolve their strategies to harness the power of these emerging platforms. Whether it’s through storytelling on podcasts or engaging audiences on social media, the ability to pivot will be crucial for long-term success.

Call to Action:

What shifts in media have you noticed impacting your destination marketing strategies? Share your thoughts with us! Don’t forget to subscribe to Destination Discourse for more insights into the ever-changing world of destination marketing.

Episode Overview:

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam are joined by Sarah Peter, founder of the research and strategy consultancy No Luggage. Together, they tackle the critical question: Are DMOs nailing their strategies but failing when it comes to tactical execution? The conversation dives into whether the current approach to storytelling in destination marketing is getting stale and how DMOs can push beyond video-driven content to create real, impactful connections with their audiences.

Guest: Sarah Peter

Key Discussion Points:

1. The State of Storytelling in DMOs:

 • Sarah kicks off by expressing concern that while many DMOs have honed in on their strategy, they may be using outdated or overly formulaic tactics, particularly with a heavy focus on similar storytelling methods and video content.

 • Stuart and Adam challenge and build on this idea, discussing how storytelling can become overly reliant on one medium and fail to differentiate destinations.

2. Beyond Storytelling: Incubating Ideas:

 • Sarah introduces the concept of DMOs acting as incubators, where they facilitate and nurture stories instead of simply telling them. This involves understanding the root of community issues or opportunities and fostering product innovation to create better experiences.

 • The hosts discuss how being an incubator can help a DMO address deeper community needs and create a more resonant impact.

 

3. Creative Tactics that Break the Mold:

 • Examples are shared from the Netherlands’ tourism board, which used AI to show what streets would look like if they were designed with biking in mind. This demonstrates how innovation can reshape perceptions and inspire change in ways traditional advertising cannot.  https://dutchcyclinglifestyle.com/

 • The Space Coast’s award-winning “Countdown Campaign” is highlighted for its successful integration of an authentic destination story using NASA’s countdown audio to highlight a variety of regional experiences. https://spacecoastdaily.com/2024/08/space-coast-office-of-tourism-scores-flagler-awards-during-florida-governors-conference-on-tourism/

 

4. The Role of Emotion in Storytelling:

 • Adam emphasizes that good storytelling—whether it’s humor, drama, or human interest—must evoke emotion. Just creating a video for the sake of it without making the audience feel something is not enough.

 • Stuart and Sarah reinforce that a great story must have a strong “why” and that DMOs should question the purpose and potential impact of each piece of content.

 

5. Practical Takeaways for DMOs:

 • Think beyond video: Consider tactile, real-world products, events, or experiences that tell your story in a more immersive way.

 • Embrace the role of being a facilitator: Don’t focus on being the hero of the story; instead, be the enabler of meaningful connections.

 • Focus on improving people’s lives: The best content, campaigns, and products are born out of a genuine desire to enhance the lives of both visitors and residents.

Memorable Quotes:

 • Stuart Butler: “DMOs need to stop seeing themselves as the hero of the story and start facilitating the stories that matter most to people.”

 • Sarah Peter: “We need to be thinking about how we can incubate real change, not just tell stories that look good on paper.”

 • Adam Stoker: “Storytelling isn’t just about pulling heartstrings—it’s about making people feel something, whether it’s joy, curiosity, or even humor.”

Call to Action:

If you have a topic you’re passionate about or if you think your destination is pushing the boundaries of storytelling and strategy, reach out to us! We’d love to have you on the show. Send us an email or connect

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Stuart and Adam dive into a lively debate on two different approaches to the traveler’s journey: the traditional marketing funnel versus the loyalty loop. The conversation explores how destination marketers should view their visitors and craft strategies that foster long-term emotional connections rather than just transactional relationships. They also touch on Barcelona’s anti-tourism campaign and whether or not it’s addressing the root cause of visitor behavior problems.

Key Topics Covered:

Stu’s News:

Barcelona’s Campaign Targeting Visitors to Behave:  https://www.meet.barcelona/en/visit-and-love-it/responsible-tourism

Stuart shares insights from a Destinations International newsletter about Barcelona’s new signage and marketing campaign aimed at modifying tourist behavior. The campaign highlights points such as noise control, waste management, and water conservation.

Both hosts critique the campaign, calling it condescending and lacking emotional appeal. They suggest a stronger focus on storytelling that evokes empathy for local residents, rather than a punitive, finger-wagging approach.

Main Topic - Funnels vs. Loyalty Loops:

Stuart’s Take:

Stuart rejects the concept of a traditional marketing funnel, arguing that it treats visitors as mere transactions rather than individuals on a journey. He proposes a continuous, circular "loyalty loop" that starts at awareness and moves through the anticipation phase, the stay, the post-stay, and eventually back to awareness for repeat visits. His approach emphasizes building emotional connections with visitors at every stage to foster loyalty and return visits.

Adam’s Take:

Adam agrees with Stuart on the outdated nature of the traditional funnel (awareness, consideration, purchase), but believes the funnel still has a place when looking at marketing on a large scale. He sees value in visualizing how a mass audience moves through different stages—from engagement to becoming active members of a community—before reaching the transaction or conversion phase.

Breaking Down the Customer Journey:

Anticipation Phase:

Stuart stresses the importance of engaging travelers in the "anticipation phase," between booking and arrival. This is when they’re most excited, and DMOs can upsell experiences or extend their stay.

In-Destination Engagement:

Both hosts agree that most DMOs miss the opportunity to communicate with visitors while they’re in the destination, potentially influencing their experience and boosting in-destination spending.

Post-Stay Follow-Up:

DMOs should continue engaging travelers after their visit, not only to encourage repeat visits but to turn them into advocates for the destination among their friends and family.

Are Funnels Still Relevant?

Adam: While he agrees with Stuart that individual traveler behavior is not linear, Adam maintains that the funnel still works for large-scale marketing efforts, like TV or YouTube advertising, where personalization isn’t as feasible.

Stuart: He argues that even mass marketing should be more personalized, using data to treat each guest as an individual. He gives an example of email marketing, where segmentation and triggered emails can create a tailored, personal experience for each traveler.

Bringing the Funnel and Loyalty Loop Together:

The hosts agree that while the marketing funnel is useful for large-scale audience management, the loyalty loop is a more powerful tool for fostering long-term relationships with visitors and creating advocates for the destination.