Distinctive Christianity

Original Title: Jesus and Temptation

In this episode, Brendon and Skyler discuss the sixth lesson in the LDS Come, Follow Me sunday school manual. This week (Jan. 30-Feb. 5) covers Matthew 4 and Luke 4-5 - and is titled "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me".

If you are in the Provo or Salt Lake City area - we invite you to worship with us on any Sunday - either at First Baptist Church of Provo or Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna. We welcome visitors!

LDS Sources mentioned:

JST Matthew 3

For Individuals and Families

Matt. 4.1-11, Part 1

"In Psalms we read, 'I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people' (Psalms 22.6). This is diametrically opposed to our philosophy. Certainly one is not likely to rise high who has that kind of an opinion of himself." (Spencer W. Kimball, here)

Note: Moses warns against false prophets who lead people after other gods (Deut. 13.1-5); and Paul warns in Galatians that "even if we or an angel from heaven" preach a different gospel - to let him/her be anathema, as well as warning against false apostles, men who preach "another Christ" - saying that "even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." (Gal. 1.7, 2 Cor. 11.4,13-14) And of course, the apostle John warns against "false prophets" and commands we "test the spirits". (1 John 4.1-3)

Resources:

Mormonism - Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner (ch.24)

Christianity and Liberalism by J. Gresham Machen

The Person of Jesus by J. Gresham Machen

The Bible Among the Myths by John Oswalt

D. A. Carson (Doubting Thomas and On Suffering)

Core Christianity by Michael Horton

Confessions by Augustine

On the true Gospel; Darrell Bock (here); On harmonization (here)

The Bible vs. Bart Ehrman (Jason Wallace)

Note: Joseph Smith told Alexander Neibaur that he saw Jesus with a light complexion (white skin) and blue eyes (A.N. Journal, May 24,1844). Yes, Jesus is a white man, according to the founding Mormon/LDS prophet. This is related to some racial issues in LDS history and has clearly impacted LDS art to this day, as should be obvious throughout any official sources. (Whiteness is also true of Mary in 1 Nephi 11.13-15, who is even claimed by some LDS to actually be from England, based on legend.) Also see Mormonism - Shadow or Reality, ch. 21.

Original title: Repentance

In this episode, Brendon and Skyler discuss the fifth lesson in the LDS Come, Follow Me sunday school manual. This week (January 23-29) covers Matthew 3, Mark 1, and Luke 3 - and is titled "Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord".

If you are in the Provo or Salt Lake City area - we invite you to worship with us on any Sunday - either at First Baptist Church of Provo or Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna. We welcome visitors!

LDS Sources mentioned:

Luke 3. 7-14

Miracles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Carlos Revillo, Jr.)

Matthew 3.13-17, Part 2

Acquiring Spiritual Knowledge, Part 3

"[A]ll the ordinances and ceremonies of the Christian world, being administered in the name of the Trinity, without new revelation, are illegal and of none effect, and that God does not record them in the heavens, though they may be recorded by man on the earth." (Orson Pratt, JD16. 175)

"In Psalms we read, 'I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people' (Psalms 22:6). This is diametrically opposed to our philosophy. Certainly one is not likely to rise high who has that kind of an opinion of himself." (Spencer W. Kimball, here)

His Grace Is Sufficient (Brad Wilcox)

2 Ne. 25.23, Moroni 10.32

Reflection and Resolution (Russell Nelson)

BOM on pedo-baptism: Moroni 8 - except for John the Baptist (D&C 84. 27-28). For LDS, the "age of accountability" is eight years old. (here)

It also should have been said that according to LDS theology, baptism was instituted with Adam (Moses 6.64-66) - and throughout the BOM, they claim that "the principal ancestors of the American Indians" were simultaneously practicing the Law of Moses and baptizing in the name of Jesus. (wording now changed by the LDS church, here.) Brigham Young even taught that baptism is an eternal practice. (JD 19.48)

Lecture VI, The Articles of Faith by James E. Talmage

"This is My Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell (pp. 331-334, quotation of Joseph F. Smith on p. 333)

Resources:

Pastor Brendon's recent sermon on Ezra 9: A Godly Man's Prayer

Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Murray

Podcasts on Matthew 3: here, and here

Note: On the claim that "adoptionist" christology was the earliest christology, let alone using D&C 93. 12-15 to justify it - see the book Jesus The Eternal Son: Answering Adoptionist Christology by Michael Bird. (Also here, and here) The Philippians hymn (2.5-11) is one good example to show the continuity between early christology - and John 1. A similar point was made by Daniel Boyarin (who was previously mentioned) in regard to the Gospel of Mark - as can be seen in title "Son of Man". In fact, to quote Bird: "[in regard to] how, when, and who first saw Jesus as a human adopted to divine sonship: it occurred sometime in the 190s or early 200s, in Rome, through a group of Theodotians." Hardly the earliest christology!

Moreover, the LDS utilization of Romans 4.15 is incorrect - as even reading the flow of Paul's argument should demonstrate. As Douglas Moo outlines, the two main debates on this verse are "whether the clause is a statement about the Mosaic law specifically or a kind of gnomic statement about the nature and function of law, as 'law.' In either case, the application is to the Mosaic law, which is clearly referred to in the first part of the verse." Then, Moo states, "Paul, then, is not claiming that there is no sin where there is no law, but, in almost a truism, that there is no deliberate disobedience of positive commands where there is no positive command to disobey." (pp. 301-302) It hardly need be said that Paul teaches the doctrine of original sin, even in this very epistle.

Original title: In the Beginning: Premortal Existence, Creation Out of Nothing, and Trinity

In this episode, Brendon and Skyler discuss the fourth lesson in the LDS Come, Follow Me sunday school manual. This week (January 16-22) covers John 1 - and is titled "We Have Found the Messiah".

If you are in the Provo or Salt Lake City area - we invite you to worship with us on any Sunday - either at First Baptist Church of Provo or Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna. We welcome visitors!

On NT textual criticism, generally - here is an Interview with Daniel Wallace that is well-worth a listen. No essential doctrine of Christianity is impacted by even the major variants that are debated, contrary to what is now popular opinion.

A few of the LDS sources emphasized in this episode:

• The Light of Christ (more info below)
• D&C 93
• Jesus Christ Chosen as Savior
• JST John 1 (more info below)
• The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent

A few additional sources for some of the deeper aspects of Mormonism:

• The King Follett Discourse (Joseph Smith)
• The Nature of Man (Brigham Young)
• Man (John Taylor)
• The Meaning of the Atonement (W. Cleon Skousen)
• The Constitution: Heavenly Banner (Ezra Taft Benson)
• "Lightning out of Heaven: Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community"(Terryl Givens)
• Treasures in the Heavens (Hugh Nibley)

Resources:

Sermon by Pastor Russ of FBC Provo on John 1: The King Has Come

Exegesis of John 1.1-3 (James White)

Sermons (here and here) on John 1.1-5 (Terry Johnson)

• Anselm (here)
• Irenaeus (Against Heresies, Book Two)
• Irenaeus as Logos Theologian (Jackson Lashier)

Reformed Dogmatics by Herman Bavinck

Core Christianity by Michael Horton

The Trinity: An Introduction by Scott Swain

The Forgotten Trinity by James White

Simply Trinity by Matthew Barrett

The Trinitarian Theology of Cornelius Van Til by Lane Tipton

Brief overview of the basics of the Trinity (here and here)

Defending Trinitarian Classical Theism (Craig Carter)

Revelation Connected to the Nativity (Lane Tipton)

Brief overview of the Council of Nicaea (here, here, here and here)

The Bible Among the Myths by John Oswalt

Creation Out of Nothing by Paul Copan and William Lane Craig

In the Beginning was the Word by Anthony Esolen

The Gospel Code by Ben Witherington III

The Creedal Imperative by Carl Trueman

Christianity and Classical Culture by Jaroslav Pelikan

Note 1: Skyler said that some LDS apologists will point out places where Smith seemed to get something right in the JST. John 1 is not one of those places! (That could've been stated more clearly.) That being said, in places that seem more plausible than his changes to John 1 - and contrary to the typical retort that "How could Joseph Smith have known?", there is plenty of evidence and analysis that he indeed could've known (and even did know) about hebrew parallelism (chiasmus) and had access to some scholarly work of his time.

• Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (Revised and Enlarged) by D. Michael Quinn (esp. chapter 6, and definitely pay attention to footnotes like 106, and 108. Incredibly informative.)

• The Joseph Smith Translation and Ancient Texts of the Bible by Kevin Barney; "In short, the JST phrasing is apparently Joseph Smith's way of getting his theological point across...No parallel ancient variants exist for the majority of JST readings. This lack of textual support suggests that the JST does not restore actual textual material. Some scriptural exegetes have hypothesized deliberate and widespread textual corruptions early enough to be incorporated into biblical manuscripts which have survived. Since the original autographs are irrecoverable, this assertion cannot be completely disproven, but it has been weakened with the discovery of Hebrew texts from the Old Testament as early as the second century B.C. which support the basic integrity of the later manuscripts. Some New Testament manuscripts date to the fourth, third, and even second centuries A.D., leaving an increasingly small frame of time in which the hypothesized textual corruptions could have occurred." (p.86) In his conclusion, he states: "We have seen that the majority of JST changes lack ancient textual support. Although we cannot say with complete assurance what stood in the original text, manuscript discoveries have made the argument that there could have been massive early deletions from the text untenable, at least for the New Testament." (p.100)

• Thomas Wayment, who did the translation that even the Interpreter was whole-heartedly promoting on their podcast, did some of the more recent work on the connection of the JST to Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary - which explains even some of the things Smith supposedly did correctly. RFM covers the subject well here, and here. (The main source being the book Producing Ancient Scripture: Joseph Smith's Translation Projects in the Development of Mormon Christianity)

• Mormons and the Bible by Philip L. Barlow (esp. chapter 2) In fact, on the JST of John 1.18 - Barlow states: "In addition to harmonizing the Bible internally, Smith rendered it compatible with his own experience and revelations." (p. 56)
• Sandra Tanner, it should be said: as usual, was way ahead of the game on these kinds of issues, whether original work or a popularizer of those who did original work. (e.g. here and here)

Note 2: One can listen to the scholar Daniel Boyarin in this interview and hear him describe some of his own analysis and then judge for one's self whether he's concluding that John 1 teaches polytheism.

• The Jewish Gospels by Daniel Boyarin
• The Jewish Targums and John's Logos Theology by John Ronning
• The Angel of the Lord by Douglas Van Dorn and Matt Foreman
• Some of Michael Heiser's work is relevant here, and here, and here

Note 3: On the distinction between Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit (which Christians do not make, given the two words come from the same greek word) - Charles Harrell wrote some helpful analysis in his book "This Is My Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology:

"The Book of Mormon refers to the Holy Ghost as 'it', not 'he' (2 Ne. 32.5, Alma 34.48, 39.6), and early revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants similarly speak of the Holy Ghost as 'it' in the sense of an influence. (D&C 76.35, 88.3)" (p. 187) "The evidence suggests that early Latter-day Saints understood the Holy Ghost to be a spiritual power or influence, not a personage. While Latter-day Saints now distinguish between the Holy Ghost, the influence of the Holy Ghost, and the light of Christ, such differentiation was unknown and unnecessary to the early Saints. The Lectures on Faith published in 1835 defined the Holy Ghost as the 'mind' of God, noting that only the Father and the Son are 'personages.' Today the 'mind' of God would be equated with the Light of Christ or influence of the Holy Spirit; not with the Holy Ghost itself." (p. 188)

On the reliability of John's gospel: here and here and here.

Relevant debate and discussion on Genesis 1: here, here, here, and here

Original title: The "Why" of Worship

In this episode, Brendon and Skyler discuss the third lesson in the LDS Come, Follow Me sunday school manual. This week (January 9-15) covers Matthew 2 and Luke 2 - and is titled "We Have Come To Worship Him."

CORRECTION: Brendon mentioned the Dead Sea Scroll discovery had "multiple full Isaiah scrolls." The correct information is that the findings included one full Isaiah scroll, with a few small damaged spots, and several more fragments of Isaiah in addition to the full scroll. The point stands that scholars recovered nearly the full text of Isaiah, and the "plain and precious things" apparently recovered by Smith are not in the text. Smith's claim that truths were lost from Isaiah, therefore, should be considered false.

Moreover, some of the italics (added by the KJV translators) and even some of the errors from the 1769 edition of the KJV translation of Joseph Smith's day were copied over into the Book of Mormon. Along similar lines, the Sermon on the Mount which is fully copied into the Book of Mormon was later "corrected" by Joseph Smith in the JST, thus leaving alleged errors from Matthew in the Book of Mormon, as well.

LDS sources mentioned:

Manual for Individuals and Families (under section Ideas for Personal Scripture Study)

The Light of Christ (Boyd K. Packer)

Two Lines of Communication (Dallin H. Oaks)

Resources:

Pastor Brendon's recent sermon on Matthew 2: The Wise Will Worship

Start With Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone To Take Action by Simon Sinek

American Awakening: Identity Politics and Other Afflictions of Our Time by Joshua Mitchell

The Person of Jesus by J. Gresham Machen

Confessions by Augustine

Podcasts: The Visit of the Magi, and The Exodus of the Son of God

Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes by Kenneth Bailey (also: here, here, here, and here)

Sermons: Simeon's Gift and Hopes and Fears

Documentary: Fragments of Truth

For a visual presentation of an example of the trustworthiness of a key part of Isaiah, see 22:07-25:14 of this. (Jason Wallace)

A few good articles here, here, and here.

Scribes and Scripture by John Meade and Peter Gurry

Myths and Mistakes in New Testament Textual Criticism, edited by Elijah Hixson and Peter Gurry

On the general issue of historical reliability: here, here, here, here and here - and on Matthew's citations: here.

Contrary to some voices out there, Matthew is (itself) a historical source of the killing of the innocents in Bethlehem. Even within his own family, King Herod killed his own brother-in-law, mother-in-law, his "favorite" wife and three of his own sons based on (real or imagined) threats to his own power. This reportedly became even a joke in Rome when Augustus quipped that he would rather be Herod's pig than his son. Quoting scholar R.T. France - these events do, in fact, "fit in general terms into our knowledge of the history of the period...[T]he nature of the events (Herod's ruthless and paranoid defense of his throne and the attraction of Egypt as a place of political asylum) fits well with what we know of the period."

Original title: Born of a Virgin

In this episode, Skyler and Brendon discuss distinctions in Mormon and Creedal Christian thinking on the doctrine of the virgin birth. Our discussion springboards off of the "Come, Follow Me" Sunday School manual used by the LDS church, which covers Matthew 1 and Luke 1. This lesson is called: "Be it unto Me According to Thy Word"

Some LDS/Mormon sources cited:

• The Virgin Birth according to LDS leaders (Sandra Tanner)
• JD 1: 46-53 : Brigham Young
• JD 4:218 : Brigham Young
• JD 11:268 : Brigham Young
• The Seer, p. 158-159: Orson Pratt
• Jesus The Christ (ch. 7, p. 77 under the heading Annunciation to the Virgin) by James Talmage
• What Mormons Think of Christ (p.27, official pamphlet)
• Diagram mentioned is on this page (from the current year)
• Achieving A Celestial Marriage, student manual
• The God of Brigham Young (Jason Wallace)

Notes: Westminster Larger Catechism Q.1 is a useful point of comparison with what seems to be the equivalent in LDS scripture: Moses 1:39.

On God Most High, or the Most High God being, biblically, the one and the same as The Lord - pay attention to even the parallelism in some of these passages (to pick just a sample): Gen. 14. 18-22, Deut. 6. 4-5, Isaiah 43.10-13, 44.6-8, 45. 5-8, 18-19 and in the Psalms: 9.1-2, 16.1-2, 18.13, 83.18, 95.3, 97.9

And, yes - virgin conception is a more precise way to talk about it; however, this issue is normally talked about under the label "virgin-birth".

Mormonism - Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner (ch10, 20)

• Origen, First Principles (Book 1, chapter 2)
• Tertullian, Against Praxeas (ch. 27)
• Leo the Great (Feast of the Nativity, VI)
• Kontakion on the Nativity, verses 1, 2, 3, and 24 (Romanos the Melodist)

One point that we were unable to discuss was the nature of these gospels, as they describe themselves in passages such as Luke 1. 1-4. For those interested in an example of a Christian exposition of this passage, listen here (Terry Johnson) - or speaking on the issue more generally, here and here.

Further Resources:

Moralistic Therapeutic Deism (Michael Horton)

The True Meaning of Christmas (Bishop Fulton Sheen)

Was Jesus Really Born of a Virgin? by Brandon Crowe

The Virgin Birth of Christ by J. Gresham Machen

On a few common claims often made against Matthew 1/Luke 1 (here and here and here and here and here and here)

Originally title: Approaching the Word of God

In this podcast, Skyler and Brendon discuss the first lesson in the LDS, Come, Follow Me curriculum: We Are Responsible for Our Own Learning. The discussion centers on distinctions in how Creedal Christians and Latter-day Saints approach the Word of God.

LDS materials:

D&C 9

Ideas to Improve Your Scripture Study

There are highlights of several of the LDS General Authorities (prophets and apostles) teaching D&C 9 in the first few minutes of this documentary. Pastor Jason also includes clips from LDS Prophets and Apostles that sound like Bart Ehrman long before Bart Ehrman. (Jason Wallace)

Resources:

Christianity and Liberalism by J. Gresham Machen

Confessions by Augustine

Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhof

What is the Gospel? (Voddie Baucham)

The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution by Carl Trueman

Christless Christianity: The Alternative Gospel of the American Church by Michael Horton (Also: here, and here)

The Ten Commandments of Progressive Christianity by Michael Kruger

Documentary: American Gospel

The Christ Key: Unlocking the Centrality of Christ in the Old Testament by Chad Bird

Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World by Tom Holland

On the general issue of reliability: here, here, here and here.

Is the Doctrine of Inerrancy Defensible? (Michael Horton)

Hermeneutics in Light of the Divine Author of Scripture (Vern Poythress)

Documentary: The God Who Speaks

Join Skyler and Brendon for the introductory podcast of Distinctive Christianity! Today's discussion includes the swapping of stories, explaining the purpose of the podcast, and describing the format of future episodes.

Please note that:

• CFM = Come, Follow Me
• Watch shownotes for Corrections (such as below)

CORRECTION (from Skyler): "I'm sorry, I misremembered where the quote from Hinckley is found, and the specifics of the question. The trend we mentioned regarding Hinckley in the Larry King interview is present, but the specific quote in mind was in a TIME magazine article.

Here is the Hinckley quote:

"On whether his church still holds that God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain, 'I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it...I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it.'"

Full Article Here

The question was specifically about whether God was once a man, not about man becoming Gods. That being said, the two had historically been connected, as even seen in the famous couplet by Lorenzo Snow: 'As man is now, God once was; as God now is, man may become.' And in case it need be said, D&C 130 holds that God has a body of flesh and bones. The qualitative or ontological distinction between God and man is denied."

Resources:

Mormonism - Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner

Bart Ehrman v. James White

The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust Modern Translations? by James White

Interview with Daniel Wallace

Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes by Kenneth Bailey

Rescuing Truth from Familiarity (Luke 15. 11-24)

Gospel Code: Novel Claims About Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Da Vinci by Ben Witherington III

The Bible vs. Bart Ehrman (Jason Wallace)

Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels by Craig Evans

How God Became Jesus: The Real Origins of Belief in Jesus' Divine Nature by Craig Evans, Michael Bird, Simon Gathercole, Chris Tilling, and Charles Hill

The Modern Search for the Real Jesus: An Introductory Survey of the Historical Roots of Gospel Criticism by Robert Strimple

Greg Bahnsen v. Gordon Stein

Ideas Have Consequences by Richard Weaver

The Consequences of Ideas: Understanding the Concepts that Shaped Our World by R.C. Sproul