What happens when a loved one faces a terminal illness? How do we navigate the heart-wrenching decisions that come with it? In this episode, Barb Gearing shares her powerful story of love, loss, and the importance of choice at the end of life.

In this heartfelt episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with Barb Gering, who shares her deeply personal journey as she navigated her mother's cancer diagnosis and the complexities of voluntary assisted dying. Barb's story is a powerful reminder of the importance of choice and dignity at the end of life. She reflects on the emotional rollercoaster of treatment, the candid conversations with her mother, and the profound impact of having the option to choose how and when to say goodbye.

Barb's experience highlights the brutal reality of cancer and the often harrowing decisions families face when a loved one is diagnosed with a terminal illness. She candidly discusses the challenges of treatment, the emotional toll it takes, and the conversations that led her mother to consider voluntary assisted dying. With compassion and clarity, Barb shares how her family approached this sensitive topic, ensuring that her mother's wishes were respected and honoured. This episode is not just about death; it's about living fully until the very end and reclaiming control over one's own narrative.

Join us as we explore the nuances of grief, the importance of open conversations about dying, and the empowerment that comes from making informed choices. Barb's story is a testament to the strength of love and the courage it takes to advocate for what is best for our loved ones, even in their final moments.

Key points from our discussion:

• The importance of open conversations about death and dying within families.
• Understanding voluntary assisted dying and the criteria involved.
• The emotional complexities of navigating a loved one's terminal illness.
• How to advocate for a loved one's wishes in the face of difficult decisions.
• The duality of grief when a loved one chooses voluntary assisted dying.

If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know! Share your thoughts, subscribe, and help us spread the word about the importance of discussing death openly.

Griefline 

VAD SUPPORT GROUPS 

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

We'd love to hear from you. Send us a text :-)

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IF SOMEONE HAS DIED

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LEARN...

⚠️ Trigger Warning ⚠️

This episode contains discussions of sensitive topics including suicide. Listener discretion is advised.

What if the key to unlocking the mysteries of death and suicide lies in the delicate verses of poetry? In this thought-provoking episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, we sit down with the brilliant Katrina Jaworski, a philosopher and educator who dares to tackle the taboo. Together, we explore the profound connections between creativity and the complex emotions surrounding death and suicide.

Katrina's insights challenge us to rethink our assumptions and the language we use when discussing these sensitive topics. She passionately advocates for the power of listening—truly listening—to those who are struggling, creating safe spaces for open dialogue. Through her experiences and research, she reveals that vulnerability does not equate to voicelessness; instead, everyone has a story worth sharing, and those stories can be transformative.

Join us as we navigate the intersections of philosophy, gender, and mental health, and discover how we can foster a more compassionate and understanding society. This episode is not just a conversation; it's a call to action for all of us to engage in meaningful discussions about death and suicide, breaking down the barriers that keep us silent.

Key points from our discussion:

• The role of poetry in understanding and expressing complex emotions related to suicide.
• How societal and gendered assumptions shape our perceptions of suicide.
• The importance of creating safe spaces for open discussions about death and dying.
• Practical advice for supporting loved ones who may be struggling with suicidal thoughts.
• The need for innovative approaches to suicide prevention that go beyond traditional methods.

If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know! Share your thoughts, subscribe, and help us spread the word about the importance of discussing death openly.

HELP IS AVAILABLE

https://www.lifeline.org.au/

Call: 13 11 14

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

We'd love to hear from you. Send us a text :-)

The free 3-minute Critical Info Check helps you see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

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YOUR NEXT STEP

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NEED SUPPORT?

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The Critical Info Resource Hub connects you with organisations and services offering grief, bereavement and other practical support.

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Join Critical Chat Tuesday, a free online conversation every Tuesday at 7pm Melbourne time.

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IF SOMEONE HAS DIED

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Find the After-Death Guide:

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LEARN...

What if the act of dancing could help you confront your deepest fears about death? In this captivating episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with the extraordinary Tony Yap, a multidisciplinary artist and dancer whose work delves deep into the realms of psychophysical research, Asian shamanistic trance dance, and the emotional landscapes of death and dying. Tony shares his unique journey from visual arts to performance, revealing how his rich cultural heritage and personal experiences with loss have shaped his artistic expression.

Tony's performances are not just about movement; they are visceral explorations of the human condition, where the body becomes a vessel for emotion and transformation. He discusses the profound impact of his parents' deaths on his work, illustrating how grief can be a catalyst for creativity and connection. Through his art, Tony invites us to confront our own mortality and embrace the complexities of life, death, and everything in between.

Join us as we explore the intersections of dance, spirituality, and the universal experience of dying. Tony's insights will inspire you to reflect on your own relationship with death and the beauty that can emerge from it.

Key points from our discussion:

• The origins and philosophy of Butoh dance and its connection to the darker aspects of human experience.
• Tony's personal journey from graphic design to becoming a renowned performer and choreographer.
• The significance of rituals in creating safe spaces for emotional expression.
• How the experiences of loss and grief can lead to profound artistic revelations.
• The concept of "becoming" and how it relates to our understanding of mortality.

If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know! Share your thoughts, subscribe, and help us spread the word about the importance of discussing death openly.

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

We'd love to hear from you. Send us a text :-)

The free 3-minute Critical Info Check helps you see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

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Go to gettingstarted.criticalinfo.com.au

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YOUR NEXT STEP

Don’t try to do everything at once.

Take the free 3-minute Critical Info Check to see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

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NEED SUPPORT?

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The Critical Info Resource Hub connects you with organisations and services offering grief, bereavement and other practical support.

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KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING

Join Critical Chat Tuesday, a free online conversation every Tuesday at 7pm Melbourne time.

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Find out more:

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IF SOMEONE HAS DIED

If someone you love has died, our After-Death Guide — My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now? — provides practical guidance to help you navigate what needs to happen next.

Find the After-Death Guide:

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LEARN...

What happens to your wealth, your business, and your family when you’re no longer here? In this episode, we dive deep into the world of estate planning, business continuity, and how to protect your legacy with Shannon Smit, chartered accountant, financial advisor, and founder of Smart Private Wealth. Whether you’re a business owner, a parent, or simply someone who wants to ensure your loved ones are taken care of, this conversation is packed with practical advice, eye-opening insights, and a few surprises you might not see coming.

In this episode, I sit down with Shannon Smit, a financial expert with over two decades of experience helping individuals and businesses navigate the complexities of estate planning, tax, and wealth protection. Shannon shares her journey from working in global financial hubs like New York and Amsterdam to returning to her roots on the Mornington Peninsula to build a thriving local practice.

We explore the importance of estate planning, not just for the wealthy, but for anyone who wants to ensure their assets are distributed according to their wishes. Shannon breaks down the often-overlooked details, like how superannuation and life insurance policies don’t automatically form part of your estate, and why updating your binding death benefit nominations is crucial.

For business owners, Shannon shares invaluable advice on creating business continuity plans, including the importance of successor directors and buy-sell agreements. She also discusses how to systemise your business to protect its value and ensure it can continue to thrive, even if you’re no longer at the helm.

Throughout the conversation, Shannon emphasises the importance of open communication, proper documentation, and seeking professional advice to avoid common pitfalls that can lead to family disputes, unexpected tax bills, or the erosion of your hard-earned wealth.

Key points from our discussion:

• Estate Planning Basics: What it is, why it’s essential, and how to get started.
• Superannuation and Life Insurance: Why these assets don’t automatically form part of your estate and how to ensure they’re distributed correctly.
• Testamentary Trusts: How they can protect your assets from bankruptcy, divorce, and unnecessary taxes.
• Blended Families and Complex Situations: Strategies to ensure your wealth stays in the bloodline and avoids disputes.
• Business Continuity Planning: The importance of successor directors, buy-sell agreements, and systemising your business.
• The Cost of Not Planning: Real-life examples of how poor planning can lead to family disputes, unexpected tax bills, and the erosion of wealth.

Mentioned Resources and Links:

• SystemHub: The platform Shannon uses to systemise her business. https://www.systemology.com/
• https://www.systemology.com/masterclass-chatgpt-systems/

• Law Institute of Victoria: For more information on estate planning and legal fees. https://www.liv.asn.au/legalhelp/?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=website&utm_content=textLink&utm_campaign=LegalHelp
• 
  
• Smart Private Wealth: Shannon’s financial advisory firm. https://www.smartprivatewealth.com.au/
• 
  

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

We'd love to hear from you. Send us a text :-)

The free 3-minute Critical Info Check helps you see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

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YOUR NEXT STEP

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Take the Check:

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NEED SUPPORT?

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The Critical Info Resource Hub connects you with organisations and services offering grief, bereavement and other practical support.

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KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING

Join Critical Chat Tuesday, a free online conversation every Tuesday at 7pm Melbourne time.

You can ask a question, listen to others or simply come as you are.

Find out more:

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IF SOMEONE HAS DIED

If someone you love has died, our After-Death Guide — My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now? — provides practical guidance to help you navigate what needs to happen next.

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LEARN...

What happens when the unimaginable becomes your reality? In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I chat with Rosie Batty, a woman who turned her profound grief into a powerful movement for change after the tragic murder of her son, Luke. Join us as we explore the depths of loss, the importance of community, and the strength it takes to find hope in the darkest of times.

In this powerful episode, I sit down with the incredible Rosie Batty, a fierce advocate for family violence prevention and a beacon of resilience following the tragic murder of her son, Luke. Rosie’s journey through grief, PTSD, and healing is nothing short of inspiring. She shares her candid reflections on the societal perceptions of grief and the importance of having open conversations about death and loss. This episode is a heartfelt reminder that while we may not be ready to face death, we can certainly prepare ourselves to navigate the complexities of grief and healing.

Rosie’s story is one of profound loss, but it’s also a testament to the strength of the human spirit. After losing her son, she found herself thrust into the public eye, sparking a national conversation about domestic violence. Through her memoir, Hope, Rosie reflects on her journey, the challenges she faced, and the lessons learned along the way. She discusses the importance of community support, the complexities of friendships during grief, and the need for honest conversations about our feelings surrounding death. Rosie’s insights remind us that while grief can feel isolating, we are not alone in our experiences.

Join us as we explore the nuances of grief, the power of storytelling, and the importance of being present in our lives. Rosie’s journey is a powerful reminder that even in the darkest times, there is hope and light to be found.

Key points from our discussion:

• The importance of open conversations about death and grief.
• How community support can play a crucial role in healing.
• The complexities of friendships during times of loss.
• The power of storytelling in processing grief.
• Recognising that grief is a personal journey with no set timeline.

Read more about Rosie:

2015 Australian of the Year 

Rosie Batty AO's Address to the National Press Club

Help is available: https://www.1800respect.org.au/

If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know! Share your thoughts, subscribe, and help us spread the word about the importance of discussing death openly.

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

We'd love to hear from you. Send us a text :-)

The free 3-minute Critical Info Check helps you see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

Three minutes. One next step.

Go to gettingstarted.criticalinfo.com.au

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YOUR NEXT STEP

Don’t try to do everything at once.

Take the free 3-minute Critical Info Check to see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

Take the Check:

https://gettingstarted.criticalinfo.com.au/

NEED SUPPORT?

If this episode has brought up grief, loss or bereavement, you don’t have to navigate it alone.

The Critical Info Resource Hub connects you with organisations and services offering grief, bereavement and other practical support.

Find support through the Resource Hub:

https://criticalinfo.com.au/support/

KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING

Join Critical Chat Tuesday, a free online conversation every Tuesday at 7pm Melbourne time.

You can ask a question, listen to others or simply come as you are.

Find out more:

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IF SOMEONE HAS DIED

If someone you love has died, our After-Death Guide — My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now? — provides practical guidance to help you navigate what needs to happen next.

Find the After-Death Guide:

https://criticalinfo.com.au/product/my-loved-one-has-died/

LEARN...

What if I told you that cemeteries could be more than just final resting places? What if they could serve as vibrant community spaces that celebrate life, culture, and nature? In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with Hamish Coates, a seasoned landscape architect and the principal designer at Greater Melbourne Cemeteries Trust. 

With over 20 years of experience, Hamish has transformed the way we think about cemeteries—not just as resting places for the dead, but as vibrant, accessible spaces for the living. We dive deep into the fascinating world of cemetery design, exploring how these spaces can reflect cultural diversity, promote community engagement, and even combat climate change.

Hamish shares his journey from traditional landscape architecture to the unique challenges of designing cemeteries. He discusses the importance of creating spaces that honour the deceased while also serving the needs of the living. From the intricacies of soil types and drainage to the innovative use of art and nature, Hamish reveals how thoughtful design can change perceptions of death and dying. We also touch on the growing demand for natural burials and the future of cemetery spaces in an ever-evolving urban landscape.

Join us as we explore the intersection of life, death, and design, and discover how cemeteries can become places of beauty, reflection, and community connection.

Key points from our discussion:

●      Cemeteries are primarily spaces for the living, offering comfort and community.

●      The design of cemeteries must consider cultural practices, environmental sustainability, and community needs.

●      Innovative burial methods, such as composting, are emerging as alternatives to traditional practices.

●      The importance of engaging with local communities and traditional owners in the design process.

●      The future of cemeteries may involve transforming them into multifunctional green spaces.

Where to Find Hamish Coates:

●      Greater Melbourne Cemeteries Trust: GMCT Website

●      LinkedIn: Hamish Coates 

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

We'd love to hear from you. Send us a text :-)

The free 3-minute Critical Info Check helps you see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

Three minutes. One next step.

Go to gettingstarted.criticalinfo.com.au

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YOUR NEXT STEP

Don’t try to do everything at once.

Take the free 3-minute Critical Info Check to see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

Take the Check:

https://gettingstarted.criticalinfo.com.au/

NEED SUPPORT?

If this episode has brought up grief, loss or bereavement, you don’t have to navigate it alone.

The Critical Info Resource Hub connects you with organisations and services offering grief, bereavement and other practical support.

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KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING

Join Critical Chat Tuesday, a free online conversation every Tuesday at 7pm Melbourne time.

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Find out more:

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IF SOMEONE HAS DIED

If someone you love has died, our After-Death Guide — My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now? — provides practical guidance to help you navigate what needs to happen next.

Find the After-Death Guide:

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LEARN...

In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with Leah Kaminsky, a physician and award-winning author, to explore the often-taboo subject of death and dying. Leah shares her personal journey from being a terrified doctor to becoming a passionate writer who confronts mortality head-on. We discuss how her experiences in medicine, particularly with dying patients, have shaped her understanding of life and death, and how writing has become a therapeutic outlet for her fears and emotions.

Leah's unique perspective as both a doctor and a writer allows her to weave together the complexities of human experience, history, and the inevitability of death in her novels and poetry. We delve into her creative process, the importance of honesty in conversations about death, and how her own family history has influenced her work. Leah's insights remind us that while death is a natural part of life, it can also be a catalyst for deeper connections and a more meaningful existence.

Join us as we unpack the layers of grief, the significance of storytelling, and the power of confronting our fears. Leah's journey is a testament to the idea that by embracing death, we can truly learn to live.

Key points from our discussion:

●      Leah's transition from a fearful doctor to a writer exploring death and dying.

●      The importance of honest conversations about death, especially with children.

●      How personal experiences with loss and family history shape our understanding of mortality.

●      The role of writing as a therapeutic process in confronting fears.

●      The connection between history, storytelling, and our relationship with death.

Leah’s Book Mentioned:

1. The Waiting Room
2. The Hollow Bones
3. We’re All Going to Die

Her website is: https://leahkaminsky.com/

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

We'd love to hear from you. Send us a text :-)

The free 3-minute Critical Info Check helps you see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

Three minutes. One next step.

Go to gettingstarted.criticalinfo.com.au

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YOUR NEXT STEP

Don’t try to do everything at once.

Take the free 3-minute Critical Info Check to see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

Take the Check:

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NEED SUPPORT?

If this episode has brought up grief, loss or bereavement, you don’t have to navigate it alone.

The Critical Info Resource Hub connects you with organisations and services offering grief, bereavement and other practical support.

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KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING

Join Critical Chat Tuesday, a free online conversation every Tuesday at 7pm Melbourne time.

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Find out more:

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IF SOMEONE HAS DIED

If someone you love has died, our After-Death Guide — My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now? — provides practical guidance to help you navigate what needs to happen next.

Find the After-Death Guide:

https://criticalinfo.com.au/product/my-loved-one-has-died/

LEARN...

What if I told you that your body could continue to teach long after you take your last breath? In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with Jackie Dent, the author of The Great Dead Body Teachers, to unravel the fascinating and often misunderstood world of whole body donation. This isn’t just about science; it’s about legacy, ethics, and the profound impact our choices can have on future generations of medical professionals.

Jackie's journey into this hidden realm began with her grandparents, who donated their bodies to science, igniting a curiosity that led her to explore the intricate relationship between death and anatomy. As she delved deeper, she uncovered a tapestry of stories that reveal how body donors play a crucial role in medical education, the evolution of dissection practices, and the ethical dilemmas that arise in this sensitive field. From the historical significance of anatomy to the contemporary challenges faced by medical students, Jackie shares insights that will change the way you think about death and the human body.

Join us as we discuss the importance of memorialising body donors, the shift in societal attitudes towards death, and the need for open conversations about our end-of-life choices. This episode is a compelling invitation to confront our mortality and consider how we can contribute to the future, even after we’re gone.

Key points from our discussion:

• Whole body donation vs. organ donation: Understanding the differences and processes involved.
• The historical evolution of anatomy and dissection practices across cultures.
• The significance of body donor memorials and the humane anatomy movement.
• The ethical complexities surrounding body donation and anatomical museums.
• Personal reflections on the impact of body donation on families and medical students.

Find more about Jackie here

Get your copy of The Great Dead Body Teachers here

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

We'd love to hear from you. Send us a text :-)

The free 3-minute Critical Info Check helps you see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

Three minutes. One next step.

Go to gettingstarted.criticalinfo.com.au

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YOUR NEXT STEP

Don’t try to do everything at once.

Take the free 3-minute Critical Info Check to see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

Take the Check:

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NEED SUPPORT?

If this episode has brought up grief, loss or bereavement, you don’t have to navigate it alone.

The Critical Info Resource Hub connects you with organisations and services offering grief, bereavement and other practical support.

Find support through the Resource Hub:

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KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING

Join Critical Chat Tuesday, a free online conversation every Tuesday at 7pm Melbourne time.

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Find out more:

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IF SOMEONE HAS DIED

If someone you love has died, our After-Death Guide — My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now? — provides practical guidance to help you navigate what needs to happen next.

Find the After-Death Guide:

https://criticalinfo.com.au/product/my-loved-one-has-died/

LEARN...

What if the objects we hold dear could help us navigate the complex journey of grief? In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with Chloe Marcela Coelho, a passionate death scholar and creative practitioner who dives deep into the intricate dimensions of death, grief, and design. 

Chloe's work is all about enhancing our understanding of death and the grieving process through innovative memorialisation strategies. We explore how personal objects, tactile experiences, and even technology can help us maintain connections with our loved ones after they’ve passed.

Chloe shares her journey into the world of thanatology, sparked by her own experiences with grief after losing her mother at a young age. We discuss the importance of memorialisation and how it can take many forms—from patchwork quilts made from a loved one’s clothing to the inclusion of ashes in jewellery and tattoos. Chloe highlights the significance of engaging all our senses in the grieving process and how these tangible connections can provide comfort and healing.

We also touch on the ethical considerations in the death care industry, the misconceptions surrounding grief, and the need for more open conversations about death. Chloe’s insights challenge the traditional narratives around grief and encourage us to embrace our memories and connections with those we've lost.

Key points from our discussion:

- Understanding the role of memorialization in the grieving process.
The importance of tactile and sensory experiences in remembering loved ones.

- Exploring innovative ways to memorialize through design and technology.
The ethical considerations in the death care industry and the need for open conversations about death.

- Challenging misconceptions about grief and embracing the journey of remembrance.

Find more about Chloe:

Chloe’s website https://www.chloemarcelacoelho.com

Instagram: @chloe.m.coelho https://www.instagram.com/chloe.m.coelho

Vestiges of Memory - Grief unpacking project on my website: https://www.chloemarcelacoelho.com/vestiges-of-memory


Join us for a heartfelt conversation that aims to demystify death and inspire you to think creatively about how to honour your loved ones.

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine

We'd love to hear from you. Send us a text :-)

The free 3-minute Critical Info Check helps you see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

Three minutes. One next step.

Go to gettingstarted.criticalinfo.com.au

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YOUR NEXT STEP

Don’t try to do everything at once.

Take the free 3-minute Critical Info Check to see what you’ve already got covered — and what your next step could be.

Take the Check:

https://gettingstarted.criticalinfo.com.au/

NEED SUPPORT?

If this episode has brought up grief, loss or bereavement, you don’t have to navigate it alone.

The Critical Info Resource Hub connects you with organisations and services offering grief, bereavement and other practical support.

Find support through the Resource Hub:

https://criticalinfo.com.au/support/

KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING

Join Critical Chat Tuesday, a free online conversation every Tuesday at 7pm Melbourne time.

You can ask a question, listen to others or simply come as you are.

Find out more:

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IF SOMEONE HAS DIED

If someone you love has died, our After-Death Guide — My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now? — provides practical guidance to help you navigate what needs to happen next.

Find the After-Death Guide:

https://criticalinfo.com.au/product/my-loved-one-has-died/

LEARN...

Have you ever wondered how poetry can help us face grief and mortality? In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, poet, philosopher and scholar Luke Fischer shares how poetry allows us to sit with loss and navigate life’s deepest challenges.

Luke talks about his personal journey, the influence of philosophy on his work, and how themes of nature, death and extinction shape his writing. His exploration of the Orpheus myth is particularly moving, showing how ancient stories continue to help us process grief.

Whether you're a poetry lover or new to it, this conversation will inspire reflection on death, creativity, and language.

Key highlights:
● The role of poetry in grief
● Luke's personal and creative journey
● The Orpheus myth and mortality
● How poetry keeps language alive
● Tips for expressing grief creatively

Learn more about Luke:
Profile Link

Discover the Orpheus and Eurydice myth:
A great place to start is Metamorphoses by Ovid — particularly Books X and XI. Read Book X online:
Metamorphoses (Book X) – Ovid

List of all the works mentioned by Luke Fischer during the episode:

1. A Gamble for My Daughter (poetry collection)
2. A Personal History of Vision (poetry collection)
3. Paths of Flight (poetry collection)
4. The Blue Forest (children's book)
5. The Poet as a Phenomenologist: Rilke and the New Poems (monograph)
6. Rilke's Sonnets to Orpheus: Philosophical and Critical Perspectives(co-edited volume of essays)
7. Goethe Yearbook (co-edited special section on Goethe and Environmentalism)
8. Beyond Existentialism: The Orphic Unity of Life and Death (essay included in Rilke's Sonnets to Orpheus)

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Take care,
Catherine

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