Doula That!

Part 3: Doulas Escorted Out, Birth Outcome, and the Aftermath

In the final installment of the series, doulas Sheila Lawrence and Jain McKinney describe being repeatedly removed from a hospital labor room after a breech client’s care became entangled in provider resistance, bias, and shifting “chain of command.” After the client received an epidural, an older white male OB told the doulas he needed the mother alone to confirm decisions; despite this, county police and hospital security ultimately escorted the doulas out of the building, refused to let them say goodbye, retrieved their belongings, attempted to have them sign a visitor behavior policy, and restricted FaceTime. The doulas feared arrest and retaliation and remained nearby while coordinating by text; the baby was born by cesarean around 11:21 AM the next day. They discuss misinformation online, legal guidance, delays in going public until discharge, trauma and “weathering,” and the painful loss of contact with the mother amid public scrutiny.

00:00 Part Three Setup

01:34 Back In The Room

02:24 Epidural And Power Play

04:26 Waiting Outside Doors

05:47 Police Removal Order

07:52 Visitor Policy Pressure

09:20 Escorted Out In Fear

13:52 Parking Garage Debrief

15:25 Texts And Birth Outcome

17:03 Clearing The Record

20:39 Postpartum Distance

24:20 Why They Went Public

25:41 Choosing When To Speak

26:01 Life Keeps Moving

27:28 Facing The Public Fallout

28:48 Weathering And Retraumatization

31:44 Doulas As Untapped Resource

33:21 Support Systems And Doubt

36:22 Witnesses And Healing

38:07 Shera On The Disconnect

40:18 Returning To The Hospital

44:20 Faith And Vindication

46:16 How The Podcast Happened

47:36 Final Blessings And Wrap

In Part 2 of this powerful three-part series, we continue the firsthand account from Shira Lawrence and Jet’aime McKinney as they navigate an increasingly complex and high-stakes hospital experience during a birth in Georgia.

What begins as a moment of hope—with a provider finally listening—quickly shifts into a deeper examination of power, bias, and control within the hospital system.

This episode captures the tension between advocacy and authority, and what it means to support a laboring mother while systems actively resist that support.

1. A rare moment of alignment with a provider who listens—and why it mattered
2. The role of the anesthesiologist in shifting the trajectory of care
3. How doulas are perceived, dismissed, and sometimes erased in clinical spaces
4. The critical importance of advocacy when a client cannot advocate for themselves
5. The emotional and psychological labor of doulas during prolonged, high-pressure situations
6. Hospital policies vs. practice: how “rules” are inconsistently applied
7. The escalation from support to surveillance—and the introduction of hospital security
8. The moment advocacy becomes risk—and the fear that enters the room

1. Advocacy vs. Authority

Even when care is medically appropriate, access can be delayed or denied based on provider bias or resistance.

2. The Doula’s Role Is Not Optional—It’s Essential

This episode reinforces why families choose doulas: for advocacy, clarity, and grounded support in moments where systems become overwhelming.

3. Bias in Real Time

Listeners will hear how bias shows up not just in decisions—but in tone, access, communication, and escalation.

4. Emotional Labor of Birth Workers

Beyond physical support, doulas are navigating systems, protecting clients, and managing their own safety simultaneously.

5. Systems Under Pressure Reveal Truth

Moments of stress expose how institutions operate—and who they prioritize.

This episode ends in the middle of an intense and unfolding situation:

1. The client is in active labor without pain management
2. Hospital dynamics have escalated
3. Security has entered the room
4. The doulas are being confronted and pressured to leave

Part 3 will take you into the final removal, the aftermath, and the lasting psychological impact of this experience—along with what ultimately happened to mom and baby.

This episode contains descriptions of medical stress, confrontation, and systemic challenges within birth settings. Listener discretion is advised.

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What stood out to you in this episode?

Have you experienced or witnessed similar dynamics in birth spaces?

Drop your thoughts in the comments—we want to hear from you.

Ravae Sinclair, JD, CLC, PBD(NBPP), PPD(NBPP)

Dr. Denise Bolds

[email protected]

We’re relaunching the Doula That! Podcast with a conversation that requires depth, context, and care.

In this episode, we sit down with Black doulas Shira Lawrence and Jet’aime McKinney to begin unpacking the story behind a viral video showing their removal from a hospital birth.

This is Part 1 of a 3-part series, where we intentionally move beyond headlines and social media assumptions to center their lived experience, professional insight, and the full context of what occurred.

This episode lays the foundation—who they are, how they practice, and what led up to the hospital encounter.

1. The intention behind this conversation: listening over speculation
2. Shira and Jet’aime’s backgrounds in education, birth work, and community care
3. What it means to serve families in a maternal health desert
4. The client’s journey navigating limited provider options in rural Georgia
5. Why the family made the decision to travel to the Atlanta area for birth
6. The behind-the-scenes realities of doula support (logistics, planning, advocacy)
7. How hospital systems operate through hierarchy, policy, and liability
8. Early signs of bias, miscommunication, and resistance in triage
9. The critical moment when a breech diagnosis shifts the course of care
10. The client’s clear request for pain management vs. provider insistence on cesarean

1. Patient Autonomy vs. Hospital Policy
2. Bias and Communication in Birth Spaces
3. The Role of Doulas as Advocates and Care Partners
4. Access Gaps in Rural Maternal Healthcare
5. What Happens When Systems Don’t Listen

Shira Lawrence

Birth & Postpartum Doula, Trainer, and Childbirth Educator.

Founder of a nonprofit supporting vulnerable teenage girls.

Serves families in maternal health deserts, often navigating high-risk and limited-access environments.

Jet’aime McKinney

Birth & Postpartum Doula, Agency Owner, and Educator based in Metro Atlanta.

Former educator turned full-time birth worker after a personal birth experience transformed her path.

Supports families through advocacy, education, and community-centered care.

This episode is grounded in the doulas’ firsthand account.

We are not providing legal advice or speaking on behalf of the hospital or medical team.

Our goal is to create space for clarity, understanding, and informed dialogue.

This is Part 1 of a 3-part series.

👉 Part 2 drops soon—be sure to subscribe and turn on notifications so you don’t miss what happens next.

Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss their experiences with being scammed by Augustine Colebrook, who promised a Belize retreat for November 2024 but changed it to February 2025, causing scheduling conflicts.

Despite paying in installments, they were unable to get refunds, with Colebrook citing financial difficulties and potential bankruptcy.

They highlight the broader issue of Colebrook's history of financial mishandling, including a $2,000 loss for a skills and drills conference cancellation and allegations of harming families in Oregon and Hawaii.

They urge caution for other birth workers and emphasize the importance of transparency and integrity in business practices.

Part 1 on YouTube: https://youtu.be/535CkMmvlgs?si=uCPE37UE6u1vyNv-

Part 2 on YouTube: https://youtu.be/MVdtv3IZxsg

Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discussed their observations from a recent meeting of DONA International, a nonprofit organization for doulas. They highlighted issues such as the lack of transparency, missing meeting minutes for three years, and inconsistencies in financial reporting. They noted that DONA's membership has declined from 7,000 to around 2,700 certified members in two years, and its revenue has dropped significantly. They also criticized the lack of translation services and the rushed certification process, which may compromise quality. They emphasized the need for transparency and accountability in doula organizations and announced plans to provide a resource for informed consumer decisions.

• Click here to find an organization's 990 tax filings to verify the financial information shared.
• Here's a resource to provide more transparency and information about doula and birth worker training organizations.

• Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds introduce themselves and acknowledge the post-election energy.
• The meeting is focused on observations from a recent meeting of an organization they were previously leaders of.
• Ravae emphasizes the importance of transparency for nonprofit organizations, especially regarding financial and membership information.
• The goal is to provide feedback and create accountability within the organization, Dona International.

• Denise Bolds discusses the annual member meeting, highlighting the lack of transparency in posting meeting minutes and budgets.
• The organization claims to be transparent, but Denise notes that meeting minutes and agendas have not been posted in several years.
• Denise mentions that she kept slides from the meeting to track information and questions the organization's financial health.
• Ravae and Denise express concern about the inconsistencies in the organization's claims of transparency.

• Denise shares a screen to present certification and membership numbers, revealing a significant drop in certified doulas since 2017.
• The organization claims to have over 2000 birth doulas and just over 500 postpartum doulas certified.
• Ravae and Denise discuss the importance of these numbers and the discrepancy between the organization's claims and actual figures.
• They note that the organization's membership has been declining, especially in Canada, due to unmet needs and issues with the organization.

• Ravae discusses the organization's financial health, noting that it was once a million-dollar company but is now losing ground.
• The organization's revenue has decreased significantly, with a drop of $300,000 to $400,000 in the past two years.
• Ravae explains that the organization's revenue comes primarily from membership dues and trainer fees, with a recent change requiring trainers to pay per head.
• Despite the changes, the organization's financial situation remains precarious, with lower revenue than in previous years.

• Ravae and Denise highlight the organization's failure to provide translations in Spanish and other languages, despite having Spanish-speaking members and leaders.
• They mention that the organization has had Spanish-speaking presidents in the past but has not translated materials into Spanish.
• The lack of translation services has led to disenfranchised members and a lack of access to important information.
• Ravae and Denise emphasize the importance of translation for inclusivity and effective communication within the organization.

• Ravae and Denise discuss the recent election process, noting the lack of transparency and engagement.
• There was no information provided about the candidates, and the election was conducted with only one candidate for president.
• Denise expresses concern about the new president, Erica, who lacks prior board experience and leadership skills.
• Ravae and Denise argue that the organization's leadership changes have been made without proper member involvement or transparency.

• Ravae shares that meeting minutes have been missing for three full years on Dona Connect, preventing members from knowing what decisions were made.
• They discuss the lack of transparency in the election process and the changes to the organization's bylaws without member awareness or input.
• Ravae mentions that the Director of Communications, Joyce Dagma, claimed that the agenda for meetings is confidential, further reducing transparency.
• The lack of meeting minutes and transparency in bylaws changes has left members in the dark about important decisions and policies.

• Ravae and Denise discuss concerns about the integrity of the certification process, noting that it has been made easier and faster.
• They mention that some doulas are falsifying their certification documents to meet requirements, leading to a lack of accountability.
• The rush to make the certification process easier has compromised the quality and integrity of the certification.
• Ravae and Denise emphasize the importance of having qualified doulas to ensure the safety and well-being of clients.

• Ravae and Denise encourage members to be more engaged and hold the organization accountable for transparency and integrity.
• They stress the importance of asking questions and pushing back against the organization's decisions.
• Ravae and Denise highlight the need for transparency in financial reports, membership numbers, and certification processes.
• They emphasize that members should be responsible and hold the organization to a higher standard for the benefit of the profession.

• Ravae and Denise conclude the meeting by reiterating their commitment to transparency and accountability.
• They mention that they are working on a resource to provide more information and transparency for members and potential members.
• The resource will help consumers make informed decisions about doula training organizations.
• Ravae and Denise thank the audience for joining and express their willingness to help members navigate the organization.

 Be Aware of Scammers!

Ravae Sinclair, a co-host of the Doula That podcast, shares her experience of being scammed by Augustine Colebrook, who promised a retreat for birth workers. Ravae paid $1,400 for a retreat scheduled for November 2024, but it was changed to February 2025, which was unacceptable. Despite multiple requests for a refund, Colebrook delayed and eventually took an additional $600 without authorization. Ravae emphasizes the importance of being informed consumers, using business credit cards for transactions, and the need for clear communication from service providers. She urges others to be cautious and to support her in recovering her money.

Ravae Sinclair @birthconnections @natlbirthpostpartumpros

Augustine Colebrook @artofbirthing @midwiferywisdom

Youtube:https://youtu.be/535CkMmvlgs?si=uCPE37UE6u1vyNv-

Outline

Scammers in the Birth Space

• Ravae Sinclair introduces herself and the topic of scammers in the birth space.
• She mentions that she and her co-host Denise have been impacted by scammers, with her matter still unresolved.
• Ravae emphasizes that it's important to speak out if one has been scammed to prevent others from falling victim.
• She encourages birth workers not to feel shame if they have been scammed, as it's not their fault.

The Scam Story Begins

• Ravae shares a story about planning to attend a retreat with her co-host Denise, inspired by a promotional ad.
• They made payments from January to June, expecting a retreat in November, but received no updates or communication.
• In July, they learned the conference in New Orleans had changed to virtual, raising suspicions about the retreat.
• The retreat dates were later changed to February 2025, which was unacceptable for Ravae due to her schedule and client commitments.

Attempts to Get a Refund

• Ravae and Denise reached out to Augustine Colebrook, the organizer, requesting a refund due to the significant date change.
• Augustine agreed to the refund but delayed it, initially saying it would be at the end of November.
• Denise's company was able to get provisional credit back on her credit card, but Ravae's payments were made through a business debit card, making it harder to challenge.
• Despite multiple emails and requests, Augustine did not provide the refund or communicate effectively.

The Scam Escalates

• In October, Ravae discovered an unauthorized $600 charge from Augustine, under a different business name.
• She had to cancel her debit card to prevent further unauthorized charges.
• Ravae expressed deep disappointment and frustration, especially seeing Augustine's social media posts about her activities in Bali while not returning the money.
• She emphasized the importance of being an informed consumer and the need for better communication and transparency from service providers.

Final Plea and Lessons Learned

• Ravae urged listeners to be cautious and informed when making purchases, especially in the birth space.
• She shared her frustration and the emotional toll of being scammed, especially by someone who claimed to be an ally.
• Ravae highlighted the importance of having a business credit card for transactions to have advocacy and protection.
• She called on listeners to support her in getting her money back and to be vigilant about who they do business with.

The Day After The Day After The Election

Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss the emotional and physical impact of the 2024 U.S. presidential election, expressing feelings of betrayal and fear for the future. They highlight the potential loss of reproductive rights and privacy due to the Supreme Court's conservative leanings and the erosion of bodily autonomy. They also address the broader implications for healthcare, particularly the shortage of medical professionals and the challenges faced by immigrants. The conversation emphasizes the importance of community, support for birth workers, and the need for systemic change to protect reproductive health and access to quality care.

Co-Hosts

Ravae Sinclair @birthconnections @natlbirthpostpartumpros

Denise Bolds @bolddoula @blackwomendovbac

Show Links

• TikTok link in the show notes about an interview with a white nationalist.
• Become a member of National Birth and Postpartum Professionals Organization.

Outline

Impact of the Election on Personal Well-being

• Ravae Sinclair expresses her emotional state, mentioning she has "all the feels" and is struggling to find words.
• Denise Bolds shares her physical and emotional symptoms, feeling unwell and comparing the impact of the election results to past elections.
• Ravae Sinclair discusses the broader impact of American elections on the world and the importance of voting.
• Both hosts reflect on feeling betrayed and the fear of losing freedoms and equity gained.

Personal and Professional Reactions to the Election

• Denise Bolds describes her experience in New York City, particularly during the pandemic, and her triggering feelings upon hearing the election results.
• Denise Bolds emphasizes her concerns as a black woman and birth worker, highlighting the impact of the election on her family and her profession.
• Ravae Sinclair discusses the potential loss of reproductive rights and the impact of the Supreme Court's decisions on privacy rights.
• Both hosts express their frustration and anger over the election outcome and its implications for future generations.

Impact on Reproductive Rights and Healthcare

• Ravae Sinclair explains the potential long-term impact of the Supreme Court's decisions on reproductive rights and privacy.
• The conversation touches on the erosion of privacy rights and the potential for a lifetime appointment of Supreme Court justices.
• Ravae Sinclair discusses the challenges faced by women seeking medical care during the pandemic and the impact of heartbeat laws.
• Denise Bolds shares her personal experience with miscarriages and the suffering women endure due to lack of access to necessary medical care.

Challenges Faced by Birth Workers and Medical Professionals

• Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss the challenges faced by birth workers and medical professionals, particularly in the context of the pandemic.
• The conversation highlights the impact of immigration policies on the healthcare system and the shortage of medical professionals.
• Ravae Sinclair shares a story from a Facebook group about the difficulties faced by women seeking medical care in states with strict abortion laws.
• Both hosts emphasize the importance of access to quality healthcare and the role of birth workers in supporting women during pregnancy and childbirth.

Future of Reproductive Rights and Healthcare Access

• Ravae Sinclair discusses the potential long-term impact of the Supreme Court's decisions on reproductive rights and healthcare access.
• The conversation touches on the importance of judicial appointments and the potential for change in the healthcare system.
• Ravae Sinclair emphasizes the need for systemic change to protect reproductive rights and ensure access to quality healthcare.
• Both hosts express their commitment to supporting birth workers and advocating for reproductive rights and healthcare access.

Community and Support for Birth Workers

• Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss the importance of community and support for birth workers in the face of challenges.
• The conversation highlights the role of organizations like the National Birth and Postpartum Professionals Organization in supporting birth workers.
• Both hosts emphasize the need for well-versed and well-supported birth workers to meet the needs of families in America.
• The conversation concludes with a call to action for birth workers to join supportive communities and advocate for reproductive rights and healthcare access.

Personal updates, business growth, and nonprofit work.

• Ravae and Denise are back after a 3-month break, catching up with listeners.
• They discuss their busy schedules, podcast hiatus, and future plans.
• Denise Bolds shares updates on her personal and professional life, including travel and business growth.
• Ravae Sinclair expands agency, launches online training programs, and supports nonprofit while taking breaks and enjoying personal time.
• Post-pandemic changes in the birthing space, including increased inductions and doula burnout. 7:33
• Denise Bolds highlights post-pandemic changes in the birthing space, including increased inductions, doula burnout, and hospital closures.
• Ravae Sinclair seeks Denise's insights on the energy and vibe in the birth world since the pandemic, with a focus on shifting dynamics and professionals leaving their roles.
• Birth workers' experiences with social media and reproductive rights. 10:28
• Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss the importance of Facebook groups for doulas, providing emotional and financial support.
• Doulas need community building and connection, which Facebook groups can offer, despite being isolated in their work.
• Ravae Sinclair observes growth in realization of the impact of reproductive rights loss on birth workers, with some feeling the pinch and others seeking business building skills.
• Ravae Sinclair sees some people pulling back from social media due to life's challenges, while others continue to vocalize their opinions and priorities.
• The state of the birth world, including burnout, lack of leadership, and traumatic birth experiences. 15:10
• Ravae and Denise discuss the importance of continued learning and mentorship in the birthing industry.
• Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss the challenges of being a doula, including burnout and the need for responsible and experienced professionals.
• Many doulas are experiencing burnout, with some leaving the profession entirely, while others are struggling to keep up with the demands of their work.
• Birth professionals describe chaotic and traumatic situations in the wild west of childbirth.
• Optimism and solutions for improving the state of birth in the US, with a focus on nurses' roles and accountability. 21.49
• Ravae Sinclair emphasizes the importance of nurses in the birth process and calls for accountability.
• Sinclair and others aim to develop into educators and leaders in the field, offering advanced courses and solutions.
• Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss the state of birth work, innovation, and optimism post-pandemic.
• They reflect on their experiences during the pandemic, including working in hazmat suits and neglecting personal well-being.
• Pivoting and innovation in doula work, with a focus on childbirth education and virtual training. 26:45
• Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss innovative doula training programs, including NICU doula training and medical terminology for birth workers.
• Doulas can help families navigate traumatic gaps during childbirth and postpartum, including those in NICUs, with specific skills and support.
• Ravae Sinclair is focusing on supporting birth businesses and parents with convenient, accessible education.
• She is developing self-paced childbirth education modules and innovating her contracts for doulas and agencies.
• Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss their return to sharing tips and ideas after taking a break.

Denise Bolds and Ravae Sinclair share their experiences and insights on personal growth, wellness, and inclusivity in the birth work community. They emphasize the importance of self-love, setting boundaries, and prioritizing self-care for effective leadership and service. They also discuss the challenges of navigating identity and leadership as black women in the field, and the need for inclusivity and transparency in serving diverse communities.

• Denise and Ravae discuss their struggles with weight loss and fitness, sharing their experiences and tips.
• Ravae Sinclair reflects on her weight gain and stress during her time as intercultural director at Dona.
• Denise Bolds shares her own experience with weight gain and stress, and how it relates to her current project.
• Ravae Sinclair shares her personal journey as an intercultural director and board member, highlighting the challenges and toll of pushing for inclusivity and change within institutions.
• Sinclair reflects on the weight gain and stress she experienced during her time as a volunteer board member, and how she had to find ways to prioritize her own well-being after leaving the board.

• Denise Bolds shares her wellness journey and how it supports her birth work, despite external obligations.
• Ravae Sinclair encourages Denise to embrace her identity and inclusivity in her dissertation, leading to project success.
• Denise Bolds and Ravae Sinclair discuss parenting an adult child, with Denise adjusting her approach to let go and prioritize self-care.
• They agree that it's important to let adult children make their own mistakes and learn from them, while still providing support and guidance.

• Denise Bolds and Ravae Sinclair discuss burnout and recovery as birth workers, with Ravae sharing her struggles with leading inclusive work while prioritizing self-care.
• Ravae and Denise explore the changing needs of birth workers during the pandemic, with a focus on balancing work and self-care in this new phase.
• Ravae Sinclair reflects on her identity as a seasoned birth worker and black woman, prioritizing her own needs and authenticity in her work.
• Sinclair shares examples of other birth workers who have found success by staying true to themselves and their communities, inspiring her to do the same.

• Denise Bolds and Ravae Sinclair discuss their personal growth and transformation in their 60s, with a focus on serving others.
• They share their experiences of unloading baggage, breaking bad habits, and being transparent with themselves for personal growth.
• Ravae Sinclair shares her experience of transforming in her 40s, including gaining weight and setting boundaries.
• Denise Bolds discusses how turning 50 brings new challenges, such as figuring out how to use the fire of life.

• Denise Bolds and Ravae Sinclair discuss self-care and its impact on their doula practices, with Denise sharing her experience of letting go of clients who are not a good fit.
• They emphasize the importance of accountability in growing a business, with Denise mentioning the need to evolve and adapt to changes.
• Denise Bolds shares her journey of transforming her health through diet and exercise, with the help of her doctor and online resources.
• Ravae Sinclair supports Denise's efforts and encourages others to make similar changes, emphasizing the importance of partnering with caring professionals.

• Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss wellness and self-love, with Ravae sharing her struggles with body image and self-care.
• Ravae and Denise reflect on the importance of prioritizing wellness and self-love, despite societal pressures and toxic environments.
• Ravae Sinclair shares her weight loss journey and how she's embraced her body, despite societal pressure to conform to beauty standards.
• Denise Bolds joins the conversation and shares her own weight loss journey, discussing the importance of work-life balance and self-care.

• Childbirth education and lack of recognition from evidence-based birth organization. 0:02
• Ravae and Denise discuss their podcast updates, current events in the birth space, and advocacy for safe and comfortable spaces.
• Denise Bolds and 5 other women, including 2 black women, have been working on a Longitudinal Study to improve birth outcomes for black and brown families.
• Despite their efforts, they have received little recognition or support from Evidence Based Birth, including being asked to present at their conference.
• Black History Month and DEI efforts in the birth work community. 4:16
• Denise Bolds and Ravae Sinclair discuss the erosion of Black History Month and Juneteenth celebrations in corporate America, with a focus on the lack of commitment from white leadership organizations.
• The two doulas highlight the importance of 365 blackness and the need for white organizations to be mindful of their actions and commit to supporting black vendors and promoting black history throughout the year.
• Ravae Sinclair discusses the lack of attention and action around Black History Month, despite previous claims of support from allies.
• Denise Bolds joins the conversation, sharing her own experiences with pain and the need for acknowledgement and addressing of systemic issues.
• Leadership and communication in a maternal health organization. 9:04
• Denise and Ravae discuss Rebecca's sudden dismissal of their work without explanation, despite previous support and collaboration.
• Ravae Sinclair and Denise Bolds discuss the importance of proper communication and leadership in the Black birth worker community, with a focus on building relationships and acknowledging the work of older, more experienced individuals.
• Denise Bolds expresses frustration with younger doulas who don't understand the history of the work and don't want to acknowledge the contributions of older, more experienced individuals.
• Ravae Sinclair shares her frustration with the abrupt and disrespectful manner in which she was removed from a leadership role in a community organization.
• The speaker and others agree that it's important for leaders to do better in treating volunteers with respect and care, especially when transitioning them out of their roles.
• Building relationships and maintaining influence in the workplace. 16:46
• Denise Bolds reflects on her experience with EPB and acknowledges the need to move on, feeling undervalued and unappreciated despite her contributions.
• Ravae Sinclair shares similar experiences of being transitioned out of spaces and recognizes the importance of containing those experiences for future growth.
• Ravae Sinclair emphasizes the importance of being mindful of who you build relationships with in your business and personal life.
• She shares her experience of intentionally limiting her interactions with certain people who have not been supportive or respectful, and reassessing those relationships yearly.
• Letting go of toxic relationships and trusting God's plan. 21:27
• Denise Bolds and Ravae Sinclair discuss outgrowing people and relationships, with Denise sharing her experience of resigning from several organizations and Ravae offering tips for those in similar situations.
• Ravae Sinclair reflects on a situation where someone suddenly ghosted them after years of close connection, highlighting the need to recognize and respect people's boundaries.
• Denise Bolds and Ravae Sinclair discuss the importance of recognizing signs of closure in personal relationships and moving on when necessary.
• They share their experiences with betrayal and how it can take time to catch up and move forward.
• Ravae Sinclair shares her experience of building relationships in business, learning to trust that they will change, and prioritizing friendships over business.
• She advises against staying in a community or organization after a breach of trust, instead choosing to seek support from other sources.
• Leadership, growth, and sisterhood in the doula community. 28:10
• Denise Bolds and Ravae Sinclair discuss the importance of trust and growth in leadership, with Denise sharing her experience of moving on from a previous project and Ravae offering advice on how to handle setbacks.
• The two women reflect on the lessons they've learned from their experiences, including the importance of taking care of oneself and continuing to move forward with a positive attitude.
• Ravae Sinclair encourages sisterhood and collaboration among women, rather than competition, in the context of leadership and healing.
• Sinclair shares personal experiences of connecting with other women online and in person, highlighting the importance of in-person connections and collaboration.

How to find us:

Ravae Sinclair: @birthconnections and @natlbirthpostpartumpros

Childbirth classes: www.birth-connections.com/services

Denise Bolds: @BoldDoula and @blackwomendovbac

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