Down the Wormhole

just to hear you say it, just to hear you say it.

orb (01:27.205)

Ian Binns (01:30.62)

I loved it.

Zack Jackson (01:32.21)

So the first line in the book is, the earth didn't make it, it got brown balled. Which in total caps, brown balled. Then we meet characters named Heen Grubears, Moogie Fallers and Sir Pong. There's a family game like two pages in where you intentionally slam your head into a fork. And then without any explanation, we have a sentence that says,

We took her to the Thrival in our circle that night. So from like the very beginning of this book, I got the feeling that this wasn't going to be a book about a carefully crafted universe or a book about like a message being hammered on over and over again. This was not a carefully crafted universe. This was a novel just stuffed to the brim with delight.

Like your absolute delight in your characters, in their alien world, it just comes through so clearly. Can you maybe just tell us a little bit about your relationship to the story and to the people who live in here?

orb (02:45.69)

What a wonderful setup slash question. Yeah, and honestly.

Zack Jackson (02:48.226)

Ha ha ha.

orb (02:54.101)

All I had was delight. I don't have training as a writer. I don't have a background. I haven't really read science fiction. I guess Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I don't, other than that, I like, all there was, and my work for roughly 30 years has been explaining. That's what like a spiritual teacher does, which is a very particular engagement of the mind.

And I had some sense that something was ending, something I'd been doing. It was like an achy, angsty, like a death feeling, like a cellular death. Like you've been doing a thing and it's coming to an end. Don't numb the pain, just let it die. And this story came roaring in. And the only way it worked was what happens next. Like a very innocent, tender, who appears? What are they wearing? What's their name?

and that explaining energy. Well, obviously, if you watch a movie and it's clear what the point of the movie is, you're like, ugh, we say heavy-handed, on the nose. You know what I mean? We're out. So it was like taking all of these muscles that I've built up over the years. Like a number of my earlier books, like Love Wins is a thesis. It's an argument. It's a like point A, point B, point C. This relates to this.

Zack Jackson (04:07.138)

Oh yeah.

Zack Jackson (04:17.613)

Here's what I just told you. Here's another example of what I just told you. And this, the delight that you're describing, this was like, all of that was like a kill switch. If any of that earlier musculature was engaged, then immediately it's like crimping a garden hose. No water could come through. It only worked with like, or like the scene where Nune gives her bread is magic speech in the ravine. I was.

orb (04:21.905)

Zack Jackson (04:33.493)

Zack Jackson (04:44.413)

interesting.

Zack Jackson (04:49.78)

in the ravine for like three or four days. Kind of knowing she was going to do something spectacular and he was going to be like, oh my god, what did I just witness? But also not knowing how. So it was like this surreal, almost like a fugue or a trance. Like I, I am creating this and I don't know what's going to happen next.

orb (04:50.633)

Zack Jackson (05:18.526)

Yeah, it's like in that scene, you do something that you do a lot in this book, which is like, you present a situation like, Oh, so-and-so has to pick so-and-so to do this demonstration, who are they going to pick? And then they pick the person and you're just like, of course they picked them because this, that, and the other, but you don't explain the, the intricate backstory behind why everything happens. You're just like, well, of course it happened that way.

orb (05:31.824)

Yes!

orb (05:35.557)

Nixie flugers! Ugh.

Ian Binns (05:38.492)

Thanks for watching!

Zack Jackson (05:44.67)

And after that happened, like three times I was on board and I was like, well, yeah, of course that happened that way. I don't need a big explanation. There's something happening right now. Let's, let's see this thing that's happening right now. Acknowledge the complexity around it and just look at it.

orb (05:57.133)

And like, oh, and that scene when, when Nuneye then has the guy that she picks, picks somebody and he picks, who does he pick? He picks Kixie Flugers. Oh my God, picks you, and it's like scandal. The whole school erupts. And then Heen is like, this is obviously a big deal. And then Lines says to Heen's, oh my God, Kixie Flugers used to be with him, but then she was dating so-and-so. And he gives like classic universal high school drama. And

you're on another planet that you've just made up sometime in the future and yet god dune picks kixi flugers and kixi flugers looks like a kixi flugers would look like it's just it's just the absurdity of it oh god it's just so enjoyable

Zack Jackson (06:35.566)

Clearly, right?

Zack Jackson (06:44.957)

That definitely came across.

Ian Binns (06:47.524)

Um, one thing I want to just say, Zach will tell you, I'm the, you know, I'm definitely the, the cohost on the show that just goes off on tangents, but you always say there are no tangents. And I, I actually, uh, have that as like a banner on my computer. Cause I love that phrase, but, um, so I. Then working on this huge grant proposal, do all these different things. And so I had a hard time sitting down to read it. And then it was.

orb (06:58.377)

There are no, yeah, right.

orb (07:03.485)

Hahaha

Ian Binns (07:13.912)

And we knew this was coming up and then Zach said, well, good news for you. And then I got your email that the audio version just got released and I, I paid for the Kindle version of the book. And so I, you know, got the audio, um, the audio version of it. And I love the fact that you read it, um, and synced it all up. And so I was telling Zach right before he came on that, you know, I was maybe a hundred pages then when I started listening and, and then I thought, you know, I really want to hear Rob say Brown bald.

So I went all the way back to the beginning and restarted the whole book, just so I could experience that. And I think that really connects because you had an episode, you released an episode recently for your own podcast, keep the tears in, or do I keep the tears or something? I can't leave the tears in. And I had not gotten to that part of the book yet. I was right before it, didn't really give anything away. So I was good with that.

Zack Jackson (07:44.931)

Oh yeah, leave the tears in? Yeah.

orb (08:01.774)

Ian Binns (08:13.228)

Um, but what I loved about that episode, and it's funny cause I, you know, highlighted all throughout the book, made all these little annotations and notes. Many of the notes that I made was I love that you're laughing while reading this. I love that your emotions are coming out. It's, I mean, it connected me more to the book and the characters than I think listen to it regularly. And then you release that episode and talked about your experiences in the past and then experience with this one.

orb (08:31.159)

Mmm. Mm-hmm.

orb (08:37.346)

I know you talked about maybe a little bit in the episode, but how did it feel just letting you be you while reading your work?

Ian Binns (08:40.984)

orb (08:50.745)

like a rebirth, like the other work that I've gotten to do over the years was like a warm-up. When I first had written this and knew no publisher is gonna want this, no one may ever read it, but I shared it with a couple friends and like one friend was like, this is what it's actually like to be your friend. I was like, are you kidding? I was so...

Ian Binns (08:52.632)

Yeah? Can you explain more?

Ian Binns (09:00.794)

Zack Jackson (09:06.478)

the

Ian Binns (09:13.177)

it disruptive in the very best way, because I had some sense like, why does, how am I, however old I was at the time, 51, and what is age? But how do I feel like I'm, this feels, yeah, it had some like coming home feeling. And even publishing, like classic New York publishing, there are,

orb (09:21.069)

Zack Jackson (09:40.279)

which was very good to me. And yet some sense like right away with the book, I was like, if I take this into a publisher, they're gonna be like, yeah, this isn't a Rob Bell book. I remember thinking, but I'm Rob Bell. So I distinctly remember thinking, oh my God, if you'll have to just do this on your own and it'll probably cost. And so it became like a rearranging my life. Like.

Ian Binns (09:40.388)

Yeah. Well, go ahead.

orb (09:49.845)

Zack Jackson (10:00.517)

Hahaha!

orb (10:17.765)

Hence, I'm like in the corner of a garage, like starting over. And then, oh yeah, I'll have to just make the audio book myself, but each step of like, this could really not work, no one may care, became oddly like a blinking green light. Like, are you okay following what feels like an even deeper level of self?

Ian Binns (10:36.837)

even if it means you like are some guy who lost the plot and he's in a garage in Ojai talking about spaceships. But then I would share it with friends. Literally there are friends who are like, I just read the draft of this thing you sent me. It gave me a couple of days to recover because it affected me so deeply. It's the most personal thing you've ever done. And I'd be like, what is, what? So it just like the Tao Te Ching, unknowing, knowing and unknowing. It had a very Zen like.

orb (10:46.713)

Ian Binns (10:53.613)

Ian Binns (11:12.475)

Rob Bell, you know nothing about how everything works. And especially the work for years was like right down the middle. This is what I'm saying, this is what I just said. This is an example of it. And this is every single interaction about this story is like people like, yeah, my mom died three years ago. I'm trying to like the most personal, it was like instantly I was talking, we were connecting on some,

orb (11:16.357)

Ian Binns (11:27.696)

other level, you know what I mean? Which was like, I obviously people know about this with fiction and literature for thousands of years, but for me, you're right. Some discovery of some self, like some more, I don't know how you even say it, because we're all just sort of step by step by step.

orb (11:45.633)

Ian Binns (11:47.076)

Yeah, yeah.

Zack Jackson (11:47.543)

Well, and I loved the fact, you know, as I said, you know, I was already connecting with the story and the characters, but then hearing you read it. So the, one of the reasons why I love listening to your podcast is because I feel, I feel like you always start off with hello friends. And then when you name the title, you usually laugh and you always talk about the importance of laughing. And, and so I feel like we're, it's a connection, right? That you're developed because you're being who I assume is you. Um, you're being very personable. Um,

Ian Binns (12:02.532)

orb (12:26.733)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ian Binns (12:32.22)

You know, I've sat in on several of your classes throughout the pandemic. These are online. It, I got the same feeling. And then when reading this, it just, it was like a very long or multiple podcast episodes, and you just sounded like you were really enjoying yourself.

orb (12:39.387)

orb (12:44.424)

really enjoying myself. And even when I started thinking, because I would come in at the end of the day when I was writing and say to Kristen, like, this is what Dill Tud did today. She'd be like, and she would just say, my God, you just love to talk about your characters. And honestly, other books was like, the book goes out, you do some interviews, quote unquote promotion, and then onto the next thing. It was like a window of time where you're out, whatever touring, and this was like.

Oh, wait, if I actually released this, I would talk about this for the rest of my life. It was like, so yeah, very personal. Like, oh no, I would be doing this. This is like the most enjoyable thing I could think of. Talking to you guys is like, oh my God, we're gonna have another discussion about where'd you park your spaceship? I'm so excited. So it jumbled, like even if you think about like, free market economics, if you make something that you gotta go out and hustle.

Ian Binns (13:22.426)

it like just obliterated even that stuff. Or recording the audio book like didn't be, you know, another platform, another, it became like, oh my God, that would be so fun to like read it and like turn the pages like I'm just reading it to you. Cause when I am writing a book in this book, I would call friends and read them scenes without them having any context for the story. I'd give them like 10 seconds of context and then just read them.

Zack Jackson (13:36.659)

Yeah. If I.

orb (13:44.473)

Zack Jackson (13:44.632)

Ian Binns (14:08.464)

the first time that Dill Todd walks up and talks to Heen. Cause I knew if this scene, but like I remember multiple scenes where I would have them, I would read it to somebody, I'd call a friend and just be like, Hey, can I read you this scene? And almost like if the scene works with absolutely no context, and I was like, Oh, we're onto something. It's good, but very personal. So if you feel that in the audio book,

Zack Jackson (14:08.567)

Hmm

orb (14:11.717)

Ian Binns (14:16.048)

which I thought was great by the way.

Ian Binns (14:36.696)

Zack Jackson (14:36.814)

That delights me because that's actually what it's felt like.

orb (14:41.469)

Ian Binns (14:46.436)

Well, and if I can, I know Zach, you wanted to say something, but I told Zach this too. Well, you know, over the last couple of weeks. So, um, I had to, uh, I was doing a lot of pickup. My, my son goes to a school that's a Mandarin language immersion program. And so he, we have taken him to a hub stop and pick him up from there. And so I was constantly listening to it in the car and he's, he's 13, I have 13 year old boy, girl twins. And so he would get in, you know, I'd take him to the bus in the morning.

Zack Jackson (14:47.02)

And he would listen to it with me and then I would listen to it some throughout the day. Uh, and then when I'd pick him up, he would come in and then all of a sudden, yeah, he's like, okay, so wait, dad, what's going on now? Um, but I had to keep moving forward to get it done. And so finally I just said, it's like, okay, buddy, I need to give you the book. You need to listen to it and read it, you know, and hopefully he will, but he, he was really getting into it. And every time you would laugh or someone that I'm like, did you hear him laugh? That's great. Isn't it? So.

Ian Binns (15:13.912)

orb (15:20.401)

He's missed some of that. He's missed it.

Zack Jackson (15:25.879)

Ha ha ha.

orb (15:42.137)

And you're like, your son's like, can you, can you just rewind to when I got out of the car for school? And you're like, no, no. I mean, I love you. Right. I love you, but not that much. Like I gotta know what happens next. I'm not going to, I already know that part.

Ian Binns (15:45.388)

Yeah. No, I I'm preparing to talk to him. Yeah. Yeah, so is neat. I mean he and he I love that it he connected with it as well. I thought it was really neat.

Zack Jackson (15:58.316)

Well, I mean, every single part of this, the plot of this book is laid out on the back of the book, but you just have no idea what any of those words mean until you read the book.

Zack Jackson (16:03.842)

orb (16:12.201)

Good, good, good. I love the idea of laying out the whole thing right before you, the whole where it's headed, in such a way that it's even more mystery. Yeah.

Zack Jackson (16:26.506)

Right? Like I read the back and then Nunez shows up and he learns that she's assigned seven sent to Ferdus to do a graining. And I'm like, well, I don't know what that means, but three quarters of the way through the book. I was like, oh yeah, that was on the back of the book. I get it now.

orb (16:32.357)

Yeah, good, good. Just word salad. I was like just.

orb (16:42.277)

Yes, so like there's a words, there's a, there's a word salad thing you can do that is, oh, you want a description on the back of the book? It's almost like a spoof of a description on the back of the book. Okay, I'll give you a detailed description of what happens in this book. You know, almost like, like a wink to the publishing world. It's like, you gotta give them a full, you know, like the Instagram video, you gotta hook them in the first three seconds. It's like a, all these conventional wisdom rules. They're like, okay.

Zack Jackson (16:55.79)

Zack Jackson (17:01.486)

Thanks for watching!

Zack Jackson (17:08.178)

Okay, I could do the rule, but I'm going to do it so over the top, but it's like laughing at it. It's memeing itself.

orb (17:12.865)

Zack Jackson (17:20.382)

Oh, it's so, it's so, I mean, you say you've read Douglas Adams and that comes through so much. It's like, I'm reading this book and I'm thinking like, this is the sort of flippant irreverent hilarity of, of like Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. But with like that sort of laser focused, this is what it means to be human of C.S. Lewis. You know, when you're reading one of his allegorical stories.

orb (17:26.054)

I'm sorry.

orb (17:44.041)

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Zack Jackson (17:47.178)

And you're like, Oh yeah, I am a demon. You're right. Not really, but you know, I, I also say those things. I definitely that definitely came through.

orb (17:47.342)

Yeah, wow. Wow. That's fascinating.

Ian Binns (17:50.524)

Hehehe

orb (17:53.401)

Ian Binns (17:58.968)

And see, I didn't... Go ahead.

Zack Jackson (17:59.234)

So can I make an observation? Okay. And then you can tell me if I'm totally off because you said a little bit before that people would tell you this is the most Rob Bell we've ever read. This is just coming through so naturally. This feels like a new thing. But when I look at the books you've put out at least, there seems to be a kind of trajectory to it where your pastoral works are these short books that

wrestle with a topic creatively and with fun images that are easy to preach, but they very much feel like sermon series. And then that goes on until you wrote, what is the Bible, which feels like you're letting us in on the like the mechanics of how you read the Bible and all of the things that grounded your previous works. Now you've given us the tools to do that too. And then you wrote everything is spiritual, which is that but for the soul.

orb (18:47.567)

Here is the kind of the magnum opus of what it means to be all the work I've done. So I feel like if you read what is the Bible and everything is spiritual, it's almost like an accidental discipleship where now you can now read the world the way Rob Bell reads the world. You don't need me to write these little pastoral books anymore. Now I'm free to go on and explore this other more.

Zack Jackson (18:58.826)

orb (19:00.165)

Wow!

orb (19:24.882)

fictional world. I don't want to call it allegorical because I know it's not, this isn't Pilgrim's Progress or anything. But it almost felt like you were freeing yourself by giving us the tools to do the things that Rob Bell did in the world for so long.

Zack Jackson (19:25.538)

orb (19:30.953)

Oh yeah, that's a really...

orb (19:40.989)

Well, it's so interesting that you say that because like I came, I was, I was born and raised in this particular Christian tradition that was called itself evangelical, which meant Protestant, which Protestant is like, how do we change the world? A guy nailed a bunch of theses to a door in Germany. Like how do you deal with the pain of the world? Think and.

Zack Jackson (20:03.174)

No.

orb (20:08.729)

stuff. And at some level, it's like a disembodied propositions, get them right in your head, get the furniture arranged right in your head, and then you're good. And at some level, I can see a long, slow learning to be in my body. I mean, I remember in my early 20s, discovering that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, being like, wait a second.

Zack Jackson (20:09.954)

Yeah, thinking stuff.

orb (20:37.937)

Like he's actually talking about economics. Everything is economics and politics and social fabric and safety net and how you relate to the currency of the empire. So that's really interesting what you just outlined is it started with like almost like standing there telling people stuff and then it just keeps sinking more and more incarnation, more and more body until we're like, well, here's how you can read that and then it becomes

Ian Binns (20:38.917)

Yeah

orb (21:07.569)

Here's the events in this body that shaped me. And then at some point you toss out, we don't even have to do concepts anymore. We can just go right to worlds. I just picture it just like just sinking more and more and more and more into body until there's no propositions left because it's just written, like written on the heart essentially.

Zack Jackson (21:20.718)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zack Jackson (21:32.35)

Yeah. Oh, that's what's so great about science fiction. And this is like science fiction ish. Just in that it takes place on another planet, but

orb (21:38.037)

Yeah. One interviewer on a science fiction podcast was like, other than planets and space ship, other planets and space ship, what makes a science fiction? And I was like, I didn't say that. Don't ask me.

Zack Jackson (21:55.086)

That's what Kurt Vonnegut said that. He said, I'm, I'm a science fiction writer because somebody told me I was.

orb (22:01.093)

Right, I'm like, I'm not making claims here.

Zack Jackson (22:05.702)

But that's the beauty, that's the like the best of science fiction is we take what it means to be human and we play it out on a stage that's so outrageous that it's not going to too closely allegorize, but we can work out in them what's happening here with us.

Ian Binns (22:10.501)

Oh, and it just comes in like Game of Thrones. I don't know where Westeros is. But I know greed. I can I know that feeling.

orb (22:21.501)

Ian Binns (22:27.468)

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Zack Jackson (22:30.973)

Uh-huh.

orb (22:35.089)

That's really well said. That's funny.

Zack Jackson (22:39.318)

So in this universe of yours, the earth gets brownballed in the first sentence, which means we basically destroyed the topsoil and nothing can grow. Our atmosphere is polluted. There's nothing living left on it. Everything is brown now. And we had to leave. The humanity had to go out into the stars and colonize other planets with hopefully a bit more intentionality. So imagining that universe.

What do you think those people who left Earth, those people who were religious, how do you think that sort of thing would affect their view of God, the divine? How do we bring God with us to the stars?

orb (23:24.069)

Right, right, because the...

orb (23:29.678)

you're going to have to have some understanding that can handle that. Which in some ways has been all along. Apocalypse is often looming. I mean, you think about how many texts apocalypse is looming. I mean, think about how many saviors. The only way I can make you think I'm a savior is if I can show you politically, religiously otherwise, I have to be able to show you an apocalypse to show you your need for someone to save you from it.

Zack Jackson (23:33.848)

Zack Jackson (23:57.339)

and even the crashing of the stock market, I'll protect you because it's coming. You know, that's like a thing. Why 2K? Think of how many of these. I have the answer to help you escape becoming wrath. So perhaps sometimes those arise in order to destroy whatever conception is so limited that it's actually dependent on avoiding that thing. Whatever it is, if it's ultimate reality, all of it has to exist within, it has to be able to handle even that.

orb (23:58.473)

Zack Jackson (24:21.134)

Ian Binns (24:21.177)

You know, like if a story, if you're animating myth, AKA your religion, that which holds you together can't absorb the earth not making it, then you need to get a new one.

orb (24:30.053)

Zack Jackson (24:30.285)

I imagine people in that universe did. They would have had to.

Zack Jackson (24:47.334)

orb (24:49.293)

Well, imagine, yeah, imagine, well, I mean, we have very straightforward examples of this, like Galileo's like, we're not actually the center. There's something called the sun, which is the center. And you have a whole hierarchical worldview, which keeps lots of different people above other people. And you have that system going, no, no. And he's like, well, actually, we just have this thing called a telescope. We figured out how to make glass out of sand. We put two of them in a metal tube. You can see.

Ian Binns (25:17.634)

Um, we have very real examples of this in not so recent history when new information or new events shatter. Whatever the story is, it's holding people together and it either doubles down. Oh, here's one America's the greatest nation on the face of the earth. Hmm. You just lost in Afghanistan to a group of locals using weapons that they got from Russia in the eighties.

orb (25:18.621)

Ian Binns (25:36.632)

You know what I mean? Like the greatest military superpower lost. Like Taliban won, America zero. So like you either readjust your narrative or you double down and now the absurdity really gets amped up. So you're right, they have to, they have to at some way, yeah, like whatever wasn't big enough has to get big fast.

orb (25:47.805)

Ian Binns (25:59.853)

Yeah. Most of the apocalyptic literature in the Bible, at least, is like, here's the end of your world. Here's the end of everything you know. Your whole system stops working. The enemies are winning. And then there is hope because God stops it before the ultimate end. So I imagine in this world that's dying, there's all these people with this like religious faith that's built on that sort of thing. That's like God would never let the earth die.

Zack Jackson (26:17.738)

Ian Binns (26:18.021)

orb (26:27.493)

Right, right, right.

orb (26:36.474)

That's the end. That's the stop of the suffering. The earth is it. And then as the earth continues to die, they have to reevaluate, oh goodness, what is the end then? What is the next thing? What is the next thing that's more expansive, that's higher that.

Zack Jackson (26:47.19)

orb (26:59.462)

And that's what I, and when I learned that the earth brown balled, and I like that sentence, when I learned that the earth brown balled, because I had to explain how to get a guy on Ferdus asking a guy, we had to like, what was so interesting to me is, oh, take the worst fear in the air right now and just have it happen. Just have that be the starting point. It's like in a marriage. Think about a marriage, a couple has an argument that just keeps coming up.

Zack Jackson (27:11.769)

Hahaha!

Zack Jackson (27:21.387)

Try the three of us to imagine that. There's some issue that keeps, sort of keeps coming up. And all of a sudden, one day in the midst of an argument, one of the partners says to the other, well, if we're gonna stay together, we're gonna need to get to the root of this. But they've never ever remotely discussed or considered not staying together. But the one of them said it. And there's like a holy terror of like, wait, did you just say that?

orb (27:30.593)

But you the observer, if you were observing the argument, it'd be like, that's like one of the best things they could have said, because they're gonna probably get, so it's like speak the unspeakable, and notice how the nervous system weirdly relaxes. There's an openness, even like a democracy is an experiment. Well, some experiments fail. Like just take all the terror of January 6th, take all the terror of election.

Ian Binns (28:03.501)

Zack Jackson (28:14.627)

Medley just take it all and go. Yeah, it did it was an experiment some experiments fail and Weirdly enough and affection arises maybe even imagination Which I think I knew even I mean the thing that really is interesting to me and what you were just saying Zach is Jesus isn't like oh, let's do everything we can to keep the temple together. He's like, oh, yeah this whole thing's This whole idea that the divine dwells in a building Yeah, fine for like

orb (28:26.929)

Ian Binns (28:32.773)

not one stone will remain on top of another. It's almost like he's like, in order for you all to understand that the whole earth is a temple, that all of it's holy and sacred, yeah, it might need to come down. He doesn't seem to be shy away from, if that's what it'll take, fine.

orb (28:56.781)

Zack Jackson (29:13.undefined)

Ian Binns (29:19.353)

And they did. The Jews and the Christians both built new systems that were more expensive, that didn't need to live in the temple.

Zack Jackson (29:20.644)

orb (29:25.457)

You talk about feeling something in your body.

I've been asking people this, try this by the way. This is really fun. Say to somebody, cause I've been trying this out and I love what it does to people, me included. I'll say to them, hey, next year, check this out. Biden versus Trump. Here we go.

Zack Jackson (29:46.41)

orb (29:46.581)

And notice, and people, you can just see people throw up in their mouth. And as like, are you kidding me? Those are the options next fall. And yet what's also interesting is you, if you zoom out just to touch, perhaps that as the options is the kind of pain the system needs to be in. But for like, maybe the system hasn't bottomed out yet. Like these are the options here in America where we, where we've

Ian Binns (29:48.348)

have a tradition of coming up with kind of awesome stuff. This is what perhaps a system hasn't, and obviously we know from addiction and lots of different things, you have to hit the wall at some level. And all of it, like think of how many, for the three of us, how many moments in your life you were in enough pain to actually start asking a whole new set of questions. But like try that Biden versus Trump, say it like it's the coolest thing ever and just watch people like, are you,

orb (30:15.009)

Ian Binns (30:18.425)

Ian Binns (30:38.146)

But like that disgust, that disgust is how we actually do new things. Like seriously?

orb (30:44.605)

Ian Binns (30:53.072)

Yeah, sometimes you need to be searching for an enigmatic man with your assassin and have entrails dropped on top of your head. You know, sometimes that's just what happens.

Zack Jackson (30:55.242)

orb (31:11.165)

Please clarify for your listeners that that's a reference to the book.

Ian Binns (31:14.821)

That scene was so amazing.

Zack Jackson (31:15.434)

Oh, that's one of those things that you can say about the book that makes no sense until you get to the part where it's in.

orb (31:20.613)

I just love the second time she appears in his bedroom and he's like, wait, you can't find Diltud? And then he says it again without the question, wait, you can't find Diltud? Like he's so delighted. Wait, has this happened before? Is this like a thing? And he's like the admiration for Diltud. She's like, yeah, he's just like, he doesn't even really exist. Wait, this is like the greatest news ever.

Ian Binns (31:32.848)

Hehehehe

Ian Binns (31:36.527)

Aren't you supposed to be the best?

Zack Jackson (31:46.83)

orb (31:48.229)

Yeah, wait, isn't this what you do? Ha ha ha!

Zack Jackson (31:51.882)

I also love that instead of saying like, well, you know, I'm an official assassin. You would never say that in a bureaucratic system, right? You would use a word like graining, which is so innocuous. It's just, it's so bureaucratic and he just keeps drilling that this is a graining. That's just, you're a murderer. It's what you are. No, no, I'm graining. It's different. It's well, are you.

orb (32:02.207)

orb (32:06.944)

This is a grainy.

Ian Binns (32:11.001)

Right. Do you have a gun? Do you have a gun on you right now? Do you have a gun? He's just like, you act like this is so civil, but like how... Ha ha ha.

orb (32:14.085)

Ian Binns (32:18.552)

I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Zack Jackson (32:19.598)

Zack Jackson (32:25.43)

That was a theme that kept coming up as the book progressed. It was like, because earth was destroyed, we had to reform it. Some very smart people decided to create the most effective system possible for the most good for the most people. And from the surface, it looks great. Right. And everyone respects the chairs and the arrangements and all of that. And you can get a job just putting down stakes in the ground.

orb (32:43.845)

Alright, right.

Zack Jackson (32:54.398)

And imagining what a neighborhood might look like. That's a whole job. And if you don't like it, go be a baker. That's a job too. And it's just this freedom and wonderful. And you're like, why can't the world work like this? And then the more we look into it, those kinds of bureaucratic words that are used are actually laced with poison. And you realize how much is like. Respectable is not actually good.

Ian Binns (32:59.068)

Uh huh.

Zack Jackson (33:21.974)

Right. And I kept seeing, I kept hearing like, Oh, well, you know, we're, we're re we're restructuring the division right now where we're having to make some, uh, some strategic cuts to streamline our team is like, well, you're firing me, you know, and how many things that we can hide by, by making them sound respectable.

orb (33:48.85)

I was just reading about a hedge fund owner who owns an NFL team and is just making a mess of the NFL team. And the hedge fund owner made billions off of betting on the major banks to survive, but the banks survived because of a government bailout. You're like, that's insidious. Did I? Oh, Carolina in the house.

Ian Binns (34:07.189)

All right.

I'm wondering who you're talking about.

Ian Binns (34:16.016)

Hmm

orb (34:18.161)

But like, if you just ponder that loop, if you just ponder that loop for a moment, and the insertion, giant systems that insert themselves in the exchange of goods and services and extract value out of it, adding nothing, exploiting it based on nanosecond computer insertions and trades, generating nothing, contributing nothing.

Ian Binns (34:19.092)

Maybe like 15 miles that way.

orb (34:48.081)

just sucking little pennies here and there, but doing it hundreds of billions of times. Like so insidious.

Ian Binns (34:56.198)

Yeah, and we put them on magazine covers. They're brilliant.

orb (34:58.369)

insidious.

Zack Jackson (35:00.086)

orb (35:03.813)

And then, right, right. Contributing nothing.

Ian Binns (35:09.36)

I wanted to shift to something a little lighthearted. A theme that I loved in your book that I felt like just constantly kept coming up is curiosity amongst the characters. How, you know, when Heen was growing up, he was very, very curious. Would ask questions, you know, just really into it. When he then got into the role of being a series five after the tragedy struck for him.

orb (35:22.172)

Um, it, it's almost like his curiosity was kind of set aside some because he knew he had this job and you could, I love the fact that I guess in part three, you really get into this, that you can start figuring out. Uh, and I, I was kind of picking up on this pretty quickly that he felt fake until he, he got, yeah, like it.

Ian Binns (35:39.708)

orb (36:02.41)

Oh, yeah.

Ian Binns (36:05.068)

And then you can see the times, especially when he would get irritated with Dill Todd. Um, I love that. And I would put notes in here saying, you know, Oh, you know, you're it's great that he's irritated with Dill Todd simply because Dill Todd is being very curious. Um, and he's being pushed to kind of get back to that part of his childhood, almost of that role of curiosity. Um, which is, yeah, I'm always told by Zach and the others on the show and, and all of my friends and family. How

orb (36:21.645)

Yes!

orb (36:27.609)

how curious of a person I am. Cause I just love to learn and love to ask questions and yeah, I love being curious. And so I just, I appreciate you did that throughout this book and showed his struggles with it as well. I thought that was really fascinating.

Ian Binns (36:34.752)

orb (36:37.213)

Yeah, scientists, absolutely, yeah.

orb (36:48.689)

Oh, thank you. That's so well said. Yeah, because you as science, the core of science, the engine of science is curiosity. Oh yeah, and I loved how he starts, like they're discussing things in the bakery and he'll like ask a question and be like, what the fuck, I don't participate in these conversations. I'm the guy just, he keeps, or like when there's a moment when,

Zack Jackson (37:11.545)

Hahaha.

orb (37:18.361)

Ziga May has Philippe died and he is like, yeah, no, I just saw him the other day, he's fine. And he's like, wait. As he's like beginning, and then Nune shows up and he's like, you're so fake. You just like connect with everybody but they don't know you're assassin. She's like, wait a second. I'm pretending. You think that you and I don't get a paycheck from the same man. Like she comes to just show him his own shadow like.

Ian Binns (37:25.85)

Ian Binns (37:36.23)

Ian Binns (37:46.106)

What are you and these Firdes people now buddies or something? No, the two of us have a thing we're doing here. And he's like gradually he can't do the job and he can't pretend. And it's like.

orb (37:46.149)

Ian Binns (37:59.076)

I love when she starts telling him you're in so deep. You don't even see it.

orb (38:02.817)

You don't even see it. You can, you, oh my God, you're gonna like, and it's like a somehow like his curiosity is like, he's feeling and also when he first met Diltad, I was like, oh my God, how fascinating is this? He's beginning to realize that he's been numb for decades, most of his adult life. But then when he actually begins to feel the first feelings coming out, he's thawing, but the first feelings aren't,

Ian Binns (38:05.925)

a warm embrace of the unit of nature of all reality. It's just supernatural irritation. Like this guy who pretends like we somehow have some long standing relationship and he has these staccato bursts of conversation and he's wearing these multi one-colored outfit. Like, if you decide not to numb yourself and all these numbing devices we have at our disposal and actually.

orb (38:31.961)

Zack Jackson (38:40.59)

without right.

Ian Binns (38:40.703)

Hehehehe

orb (39:00.605)

pay attention and be present to what's coming up from within you. It's probably a number of unpleasant things are like ungreaved grief even. And yeah, you really want to feel okay. You want to feel alive. Okay. Here's a couple of things that are a part of feeling alive. Doubt anger rage. It's all part of it. And I just.

Ian Binns (39:09.626)

Ian Binns (39:15.834)

Zack Jackson (39:18.307)

When I, and again, you know, with Dill Tud, he played such an important role of reminding Heen who he is. That's kind of how I took it. Like reminding Heen of his own humanity, of who he used to be before he did this.

Ian Binns (39:18.416)

Zack Jackson (39:27.47)

Right, right, right. And yet, he at first is like, is this guy onto me? Does he know? He just creates this horrible paranoia.

orb (39:27.642)

Yeah, right.

orb (39:34.645)

Ian Binns (39:41.373)

Especially when he goes, where'd you park your spaceship? And just, next thing you know, he's passed out. I thought that was great.

orb (39:48.805)

And then at the end when he's like, and then at the, because the whole thing is building up in some ways to that. And then at the end when he's like, yeah, I ask everybody that. I just, he's like, wait, what? Yeah, yeah, I like to do that. I just see how people respond. It's always fun. There's gotta be somebody who's got one. There has to be somebody.

Ian Binns (39:58.8)

Hahahaha

Zack Jackson (40:00.104)

hahahaha

Ian Binns (40:09.924)

That was good.

Zack Jackson (40:10.182)

Yeah, I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to say that his job for a good part of this is basically as, um, uh, a spy to the people in charge, eyes on the ground to notice the things that are happening so that they can be corrected along the way, which seems pretty innocuous, but you can't get, you can't get committed, you gotta connect spy leave. And that's his problem because he's, he's seeing, he's so good at seeing, but

orb (40:21.445)

Right, right.

orb (40:26.461)

Very straightforward. Yeah, yeah.

Zack Jackson (40:39.082)

He starts to know and that's when he gets into trouble, right? When it goes from his head down to his gut. There's a brilliant scene on a page three 35 for those who are following along at home, um, in which he has just baked a loaf of, was it rosemary olive oil bread? Um, so yeah, which was a special bread for his mother back on another planet that they've never had there. And he bakes it in the bakery. And this guy.

orb (40:44.994)

Absolutely.

orb (40:57.649)

Sourdough with rosemary.

Ian Binns (40:57.924)

which sounded very tasty.

Zack Jackson (41:08.918)

bursts in. Oh my gosh. Cause he rushes in and says, I have to have another. And then the narrator, which is he says, he's got a small white dog under his arm. The dog is wearing a sweater on the front of the sweater and big letters. It reads who's taking who for a walk. That's troubling enough, but there's a series of zippers on this man's shirt that run in diagonal lines across his chest and appear to have no purpose. Do you have any more? He sounds desperate.

orb (41:09.718)

Oh, I love it that you love this scene.

Ian Binns (41:11.938)

I just stand there staring at the top of his head. He's losing his hair on top, but it's like, and it just keeps going back and forth in this way where there's this very clear thing happening in front of him. Where this bread that his mother made has touched this man deeply and the man wants more and all he can do is see that he's got too many zippers and his dog is wearing a t-shirt.

Zack Jackson (41:38.514)

orb (41:44.489)

orb (41:47.869)

And he's got hair combing out that's combed over. Yes.

orb (41:59.877)

Zack Jackson (42:04.754)

Like how many times have I been that like here I am looking at the facts of the situation Completely missing what's actually happening

orb (42:13.846)

And he's telling, or the mustaches, there's like the running theme of like must, I can't get over the mustache. So I just, he gets like hooked on something and yeah.

Zack Jackson (42:17.418)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, I loved that.

Zack Jackson (42:22.738)

Ian Binns (42:28.028)

I think one of my favorite scenes until we get to the very end where they find Dill Todd and really get, I mean, I loved how this book ended, but the scene in the school where Nune was really just hamming it up with the flower and the water. Oh my, I was laughing hysterically hearing you read that part of the book. I mean, it's just.

orb (42:46.23)

Ian Binns (42:52.48)

And especially someone who's been in a lot of schools since I prepare future teachers, just, I mean, I could totally imagine that whole scene and watching her hamm it up and do all these great things. I mean, it was so well done. I just, yeah, I fully admired that part of the book.

orb (43:09.626)

Oh, that makes me so happy because...

And the fact that she's so opaque, obviously there's like, that's the giant Easter egg with her is you get nothing about her other than this astonishing. So she's the anti-heen. I'm realizing now as you said that, in some ways she's the anti-heen. You get no interior from her. So it's almost like it's very, very hard to feel anything about her other than just surface admiration for these.

wide range like Liam Neeson I have a wide range of I have a particular set of skills but in the ravine you could see Heen is watching her like how the how do you know how to talk to like high school students in which she's like keep it completely dangerous the perfect line of danger without crossing she somehow is able to do all these things and leave them in the palm of her hand and shock without

Ian Binns (43:45.048)

Yes, love that movie, especially that scene.

Zack Jackson (43:45.262)

Ian Binns (44:08.492)

And you could just heen, it's just like, what is? Just, he's just one other, it's like a different kind of Diltud irritation. How does she do, what am I even watching? What is, it's like just his curriculum of disorientation. This is like the master's level. It's like Diltud cracks the door and she comes in and just like, yeah, you're not gonna understand any of this.

orb (44:10.669)

Zack Jackson (44:19.218)

But at the same time, she's like, she's totally just, that's all surface level. That's all playing. She's not being sincere. She's just, she's performing. Yeah. No matter what that looks like. If I have to be a performer, great. If I got to be this improv artist, great. I'm still going to kill you, but you'll know nothing of my heart and soul. And the moment you start to get too close, I'm going to shut you down, you know.

Zack Jackson (44:33.89)

Ian Binns (44:41.645)

Job to do. I always get the job done. Mm-hmm.

orb (44:42.193)

orb (44:51.249)

You know, of course, I think later today we're opening up a Where'd You Park Your Store in which there will be a t-shirt that just says in big letters, You messed with the wrong series 5.

orb (45:01.231)

Ian Binns (45:12.744)

Oh, I love that.

Zack Jackson (45:13.499)

Hahaha!

orb (45:15.293)

And there's also a t-shirt that says, Heen Who Grows Bears. And there's also, we're about to release, I think either sometime in a couple of days, we're about to release a coffee mug that just says, Piddle, Piddle on it. And there's, yeah. And then there's, oh, and then you'll be able to buy the Brown Ball poster for your wall.

Ian Binns (45:20.876)

Oh yes, that was great too. I just... Ha ha ha.

Zack Jackson (45:24.078)

I love that.

Ian Binns (45:30.732)

Oh my God. Yeah, when he stood up at the school and said that, that was amazing.

orb (45:43.437)

And then we designed, my friend designed one. And then there's also in that like, you've seen it with New York, but a t-shirt that just has a big heart. It just says, I love Diltud.

Zack Jackson (45:44.183)

Oh, I need that.

orb (45:56.645)

And then there's also a t-shirt that just says, you just got Bobby freelanced. Like the multiple deep cut level on that one.

Zack Jackson (46:06.914)

So I need, I need you to explain this to me.

orb (46:09.861)

You know, he's going to write a self-help book. You know that, right? Called, you just got to Bobby freelance. But he doesn't come from a family of writer. He doesn't come, he comes from the outer pangs. So right reading wasn't a thing. They weren't very civilized people. So he doesn't really know, but people could tell him he needs to write a book. So he dictates the book to Lan Xing, his girlfriend, but he keeps getting, cause he loves her so much. And it's like his manifesto, his like 12 rules for living kind of thing. But.

Zack Jackson (46:12.562)

Oh my gosh, how do we have?

Ian Binns (46:14.021)

Really?

orb (46:38.621)

He's telling it to her, but he keeps losing, like that he's dictating a book and talking to her. What do you think about that? So the book is the text of his book, but it's also him talking to her about, do you think I should say this next part?

Zack Jackson (46:45.646)

That's gonna be great. So don't be surprised if you see my name pop up in order requests with your new store coming out because yeah, that's, I could see myself getting some of those things. So.

Ian Binns (46:54.492)

Zack Jackson (46:54.928)

hahahaha

orb (47:05.936)

Uh, good. Oh, and then, you know, there's a Rolling Stones. There's the Rolling Stone, like Mick, Keith, Ronnie, Charlie, these, like, like the four names and, um, Keene, Borns, Nuneye, Diltud, like, you know, this,

Zack Jackson (47:06.409)

I just love.

Ian Binns (47:12.988)

Zack Jackson (47:13.356)

My wife will be like, what are all these shirts that are arriving? I'll just it's okay, honey. It's okay. It's it's my friend Rob's place. Yeah.

Ian Binns (47:18.748)

Gosh

Ian Binns (47:22.872)

orb (47:28.689)

It's a pedal hoodie. Yeah.

Zack Jackson (47:31.374)

Of course, clearly, why doesn't everyone have that? Of course. Right? I just love that Bobby Freelance. I was reading all these names that are just totally nonsensical names that came out of your brain, and then suddenly Bobby Freelance. He's not a freelancer, just Bobby Freelance, just his name.

orb (47:33.87)

What kid doesn't have that? Yeah.

Ian Binns (47:35.64)

Yeah, yeah. That's so great.

orb (47:43.117)

Right. Yeah, good.

orb (47:50.937)

Yeah, and that's the beauty of creating a world is you, I realized the, oh, I guess part way through I was like, oh my God, we're gonna make up all these names, Ra-Bel, aren't we? Yes, every name will be made up. And then all of a sudden he gets on a glide and the guy's name is Wade. And then it goes back to all the names are made up. And then Bobby was like, oh, so there's the pattern and then the breaking of the pattern. But then when you do break the pattern, go full Applebee's.

Zack Jackson (48:15.656)

Go full America. So like when they're at the bowl and it's this incredibly exotic rest, but then, okay. Who are the two people who are arguing at the table next to them? No, don't make up. It's not Forbo and Rasheva. What's, oh yeah, Gretchen and Carl. Like, you know what I mean? Like what's the most, I went to high school with them. So when you go, if you're not gonna make it up, then go full irony free.

orb (48:20.497)

Zack Jackson (48:41.123)

America, you know what I mean?

orb (48:50.309)

Ian Binns (48:52.057)

So it's like, what is that line from, oh, what's his name? My favorite poet, the angry farmer man. Wendell Berry, that quote from Wendell Berry, from the, that the moment that the politicos can start to read your mind, lose it, make more tracks than necessary, like the fox in the snow, like the moment that we think we know what's gonna happen next.

Zack Jackson (48:52.066)

orb (49:03.174)

Wendell Berry.

orb (49:13.681)

Oh.

orb (49:21.563)

Just you kick out the legs. Keep it, keep it unexpected.

Zack Jackson (49:21.686)

Ian Binns (49:22.906)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And that's what's interesting about, like I don't have any, like somebody mentioned me at the end of Act Two, and I was like, there's an Act Two? I don't know any of that. The protagonist, like I guess I know what a protagonist is, but I don't have any of that stuff in my head. So it's just, or like when he brings lines back and falls and breaks his jaw and bites off his tongue, I remember thinking, wait.

orb (49:24.237)

Ian Binns (49:48.777)

I mean, it's like a Wednesday afternoon or something. Wait, my main character can't speak? Like, the narrator can't speak. How long is this gonna, like, not even, didn't see that, literally didn't see it coming. And then, so now I guess there's gonna be a period here where we're waiting for his tongue to get healed, where we'll just, oh, okay. Yeah, kick the legs out, see what we discover.

orb (49:53.245)

Ian Binns (49:58.688)

Ian Binns (50:14.298)

Yeah. I mean, isn't that, isn't, I know very little about story writing, uh, other than you make a character you love and then you kick the crap out of them.

Zack Jackson (50:22.794)

orb (50:31.549)

and then you fall. Yes, yes.

Zack Jackson (50:35.294)

Yeah. You see how they respond to everything falling apart.

orb (50:42.877)

So fun.

Zack Jackson (50:42.91)

I also need to say thank you for including, I yelled, I yelped in joy when I read this part that you included my favorite joke in the entire world in this book. And you made the point of the joke that it's a stupid joke, but that it is his favorite joke in the world because it's my favorite joke in the world. And it's the only joke I know.

Ian Binns (50:43.14)

It's just, you know, go ahead.

orb (51:04.491)

Pirate.

Zack Jackson (51:06.066)

Yeah. So a pirate walks into a bar and the bartender says, Hey, you know, you've got a steering wheel on your belt buckle. And he says, Arrr, it's been driving me nuts all day. The best joke in the world. I said that in church once. Yeah.

Ian Binns (51:15.224)

You can't, it's perfection. You can't, you can't, there's nothing to say. Nothing, what can be said of it? It's the ultimate joke.

orb (51:22.621)

Zack Jackson (51:33.731)

It's the best joke in the world.

Ian Binns (51:35.688)

So full disclosure, the first time I ever heard that joke was reading it in your book. I had actually never heard that joke. No, yeah.

orb (51:40.809)

Oh, beautiful. You're welcome.

Zack Jackson (51:41.026)

Have I never said that joke to you, Ian? That's the only joke I know. I legitimately is the only joke I know.

orb (51:46.493)

Hmm. The book is bringing the two of you together in new ways. How is it we've been friends this long and I haven't heard your one joke?

Ian Binns (51:50.776)

in ways we never knew.

Zack Jackson (51:52.637)

Right? We're always talking about serious stuff. That's the problem. Or Star Wars, sure. Right. Very serious. Yeah. Pretty much.

Ian Binns (51:59.undefined)

Or Star Wars.

orb (52:01.982)

Yeah, serious stuff. Yeah. Same category.

Ian Binns (52:03.544)

Yeah, yeah, very important. Exactly. I just got my Star Wars Advent Calendar opened it up today for the first time. Very excited. My Lego Advent Calendar. It's a major joy this time of year. So.

orb (52:11.667)

Oh, that is so great.

orb (52:18.124)

Thank you.

Zack Jackson (52:22.45)

So what's next for you, Rob, with this series and stuff? You talk, I think you said before, you hope it's gonna be multiple books and you've left it that way.

Ian Binns (52:23.58)

Where do you want to go with the next one?

orb (52:34.829)

Yeah, well, God, I just, I'm always like, don't say anything, Rob Bell. Just, but obviously it says book one. Like I have a long standing, well, like on the Robcast, I just early on was like, don't be that guy who's talking about what you're making. First off, cause it might be rubbish, whatever you're making, but just tell people, yeah, it's out.

Ian Binns (52:58.148)

So just be somebody who actually makes things. Early on, that was a thing where it was like, otherwise, you're just that, you know, hey guys, working on chapter seven, and everybody's, but, and then I go and put book one on the cover, which is basically like, there's more. So yeah, there, it's very, very exciting and fun. So yes, there's, I, there's different places we're going to go. And, and like the Bobby, when I realized.

orb (53:04.909)

Like, What's a Knuckum, one of my plays, is the play that Nord writes early on in this book. And I was like, God, it's so on the nose and ridiculous. But when I realized there was ancillary books, Bobby Freelance is gonna need to write. And then there's some other things that you're gonna need, you're gonna need, that aren't like the book one, book two, book three, but there's these other pieces. So, yes. And yeah, quite, yeah. So, uh.

That'll all be coming. And I get very, very excited about where it's headed. Even the idea that it would go forward in time, it may surprise you where different ones. Yeah. Yeah, and I.

Ian Binns (54:14.212)

Yeah, I mean, I'm excited about where it could go.

Zack Jackson (54:14.27)

Yeah, but this isn't your first.

This isn't your first work of fiction though. I mean, you've written the two plays and this isn't even your first novel. You have.

orb (54:24.177)

Yeah, there was a one novel years ago and it felt, that first novel in the plays felt, I see at the time how it felt indulgent. Like I had to learn to trust the goodness of life, even as I was going around the world, inviting people to trust the goodness of life and making fun of terms like guilty pleasure and giving people permissions, you know, just give yourself permission slip, follow your heart, all that stuff.

This is like Rob Bell'd me.

You know what I mean? It's like all these things that I spouted off about standing on stages, holding microphones all over the place, came like boomeranged back and punched me in the face with love. And was like, this thing that you've been like almost doing like on the side, almost like kind of a, because you know responsibly you have this thing that you do. Just.

Zack Jackson (54:59.451)

Yeah, you're the permission giver who gives you permission.

orb (55:25.949)

Just let yourself throw yourself into it and see what happens. So it's been a very, see where it goes and just trust it. And then, yeah, just, yeah. Yeah. And all the stuff everybody like, God, how do you pay the bills? How do you arrange your life around that? How do you, all the questions all of us have just, are all the questions that came up all over again. So yeah, that's got like a.

Ian Binns (55:30.33)

We're literally in the corner of the garage figuring out a new life.

Zack Jackson (55:53.822)

Yeah, yeah, sometimes.

orb (55:55.773)

Ian Binns (56:01.744)

which I gotta say is very, it's very reassuring for the rest of us that you're doing the same thing, that you are.

Zack Jackson (56:02.326)

orb (56:12.954)

stuff doesn't go away.

Zack Jackson (56:14.686)

Yeah, letting a lot of things go, living more simply so that you can follow where, where you're being pulled.

orb (56:21.401)

Yeah, yeah, that's all the like, all those wobbles. But how are we gonna... And even the... Well, you all, you all know the science. Heisenberg's on... Like, we don't know what the particles are gonna do next. Like the causality of the modern age, like A plus B equals C, we don't get... Maybe.

Ian Binns (56:39.374)

Zack Jackson (56:43.387)

be the uncertainty you want to see in the world.

Zack Jackson (56:48.886)

orb (56:49.789)

There's also, right, obedience. There's also, yeah, you throw yourself into it and follow it and then we'll see where it goes. But yes, Ian, in answer to your question, and this has been talking about this has been really interesting energetically because I knew don't give this book coming out and talking to people about this book, let the conversations, just let all that shape the heart because of the...

next books two and three and four and maybe five, which have lots of shape. But let, but even, even the, no, don't hold off for just a half second and just talk to people about this and, and see how that shapes even where they go. Brian, Brian Eno has this great line about, he doesn't read fan mail.

Ian Binns (57:37.925)

Zack Jackson (57:41.9)