Why do we follow orders or go along with things that feel wrong? Why might defiance be better than compliance? And how can we go about becoming more defiant?

Episode Summary
I’ve always been fascinated by why people obey, even when it clashes with their instincts or values. In this conversation, I’m joined by Dr Sunita Sah — a physician-turned-organisational psychologist whose work explores the hidden social, cultural, and psychological forces behind compliance.

Drawing from her research and personal journey, Sunita reframes defiance as alignment with our true values, not reckless rebellion. We unpack concepts like “insinuation anxiety” — the discomfort of signalling someone else might be wrong — and explore her five-stage model of defiance, from recognising tension to taking decisive action. Sunita explains why compliance is often mistaken for consent, why both have distinct definitions, and why many of us have never practised saying “no” skillfully.

Along the way, she shares vivid examples from medicine, aviation, parenting, and history, including the calculated defiance of Rosa Parks. For leaders, Sunita offers a challenge: create environments where dissent is safe and effective, and treat defiance as valuable feedback.

For all of us, she suggests starting small — practising low-stakes resistance to build our “defiance muscle.” Whether you’re a rule-maker, rule-follower, or both, this episode invites you to rethink the stories you tell yourself about compliance, and to see saying “no” as a powerful tool for living with integrity.

Guest Bio Self-Description:
Dr Sunita Sah is a physician-turned-organisational psychologist and Professor of Management Studies at Cornell University. Her research examines the social, organisational, and psychological forces that influence decision-making, particularly in contexts involving authority, conflicts of interest, and ethical dilemmas.

She is the author of Defy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes (US title: Defy: How to Speak Up When It Matters), a book that reframes defiance as a vital life skill. 

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
[00:00:00] Opening & why we obey even when it feels wrong
[00:02:00] Sunita’s career journey: medicine to organisational psychology
[00:05:00] Personal experiences shaping her research
[00:07:00] Redefining compliance vs. consent
[00:10:00] The five elements of informed consent
[00:11:00] Introducing “insinuation anxiety”
[00:14:00] High-stakes and low-stakes examples of silence
[00:18:00] Why people resist defiance — lack of skill and practice
[00:20:00] New definition of defiance as value alignment
[00:23:00] Tension as the first stage of defiance
[00:25:00] Stage 3: asking clarification questions
[00:27:00] Scripts for skilful defiance
[00:30:00] Practising in low-stakes situations
[00:33:00] Speaking up for others vs. for oneself
[00:36:00] Defiance as a skill, not a personality
[00:38:00] Calculating safety and effectiveness of defiance
[00:41:00] Costs of compliance vs. costs of defiance
[00:44:00] Clarifying values to lower stress and improve integrity
[00:46:00] Leadership responsibility for safe dissent
[00:48:00] Performative vs. genuine speak-up systems
[00:50:00] Defiance as contagious behaviour
[00:52:00] The role of mischief and playful resistance
[00:56:00] Saying yes when the world expects no
[00:58:00] Advice for compliance officers and leaders
[01:00:00] Upcoming courses on defiance and decision-making

Links
Sunita's website: https://www.sunitasah.com
Defy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes — https://www.sunitasah.com/defy

Sunita's Cornell University faculty profile — https://www.johnson.cornell.edu/faculty-research/faculty/sunitasah/