Drive On: Helping Veterans Navigate PTSD & Life After Military Service

Leaving the military can mean losing the responsibility you once carried, struggling to find meaningful work, or feeling disconnected from the people around you. Even with countless organizations dedicated to helping veterans, finding the right support can feel overwhelming. And sometimes, the biggest challenge is getting someone to listen.

Recorded in person at the Military Influencer Conference (MIC), this special edition of Drive On Podcast brings together seven guests answering the same question: What challenge facing veterans deserves more attention, and what should the veteran listening know about it?

Their responses reveal different sides of the veteran experience, along with a shared belief that veterans have the ability to help one another and influence meaningful change.

Jesse Gould and Daniel O'Dell emphasize the power of veteran advocacy and personal stories to influence policies and raise awareness. Mike Nolan reminds veterans that their service matters, regardless of what they accomplished while wearing the uniform, and encourages them to lean on the bonds they built through service.

Justin Rasik shares his personal experience of spending 17 years searching for something that worked for him, eventually finding help through 22Zero. His message encourages veterans who feel they've exhausted every option to keep looking for support.

Chris Gonzalez challenges veterans to move beyond virtual connections and build real relationships in their communities. Greg Martin addresses veteran underemployment, the difficulty of moving from military leadership into civilian careers, and the importance of finding purpose outside the workplace. Bryan Anderson highlights inconsistencies across VA facilities while reminding veterans that support exists for challenges involving employment, finances, addiction, and mental health.

These short conversations offer practical encouragement to speak up, reconnect with others, recognize the value of military service, and continue seeking help.

The full interviews with these guests will be released on Drive On Podcast toward the end of this year and into early next year. Subscribe so you don't miss the rest of these conversations!

Timestamps:

Leaving the military left Michael O'Dell without the identity and structure he had relied on throughout his Marine Corps service. Alcohol had already been a problem before he enlisted, and after two deployments to Iraq, his life moved through treatment, arrests, fatherhood, and eventually a prison sentence.

Michael describes the jail visit when his father asked whether he was finally done living that way, the fear he felt when prison structure was replaced by freedom, and the unexpected chain of events that led him to Warriors Heart. Now ten years sober and serving as the organization's Chief Operating Officer, he explains why people cannot be forced into recovery, why the surrounding community matters, and how he came to see recovery as reclaiming relationships, finances, health, spirituality, and joy.

The conversation also covers Warriors Heart's forty-two-day treatment program for veterans, active duty military, and first responders. Michael explains how VA Community Care referrals may cover the full stay, how employment protections and short-term disability can help make treatment possible, and how families can access Warriors Anonymous Al-Anon meetings and referrals to Project Sanctuary.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Scott DeLuzio: Military service can give you a mission and a clear sense of who you are, but when that identity is taken away before you’re ready, the loss can reach into every part of your life. A medical discharge, a health crisis, or a broken relationship can leave you facing a future that no longer resembles the one that you had planned.

[00:00:21] Rebuilding begins when you stop. Allowing your rank, your work, your family roles, or other outside structures to define your entire identity. You can choose the person you wanna become and reinforce that identity through small, repeatable actions. Our guest today, Paul Miller, knows what it feels like to lose the ability to walk, leave the military before reaching retirement and watch several parts of his life collapse.

[00:00:47] He shares how those experiences led him to create uncivilized rebirth, a framework centered on intentional identity visualization, daily discipline, and giving yourself enough grace to keep moving. [00:01:00] You will hear in this episode practical ways to begin rebuilding even during a season when something as small as making the bed feels like a victory.

[00:01:09] Before we get into this episode though, I’d like to take a moment to raise awareness for the Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation. This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, families, and civilians who are impacted by the global war on terrorism.

[00:01:24] This memorial will be both a tribute to those who served and a way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come. If you’d like to learn more or find out how you can support their mission, visit GWOT memorial foundation.org. Now, let’s get into today’s episode.

[00:01:40]

[00:02:01] Scott DeLuzio: Hey, Paul. Welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here

[00:02:05] Paul Miller: Man, I appreciate you having me on. This is, ~uh,~ really cool. Thank you

[00:02:08] Scott DeLuzio: Y- yeah, no, absolutely. ~Um,~ before we jump into the conversation, for the listeners who are maybe just meeting you for the first time and not really familiar with you and who you are, can you share a little bit about who you are, your, your military background, and the stuff that you’re doing, ~uh,~ today?

[00:02:22] Paul Miller: Yeah. So my name’s Paul Miller. Those are the sounds that were given to me at birth to identify this human body. ~Um,~ when I was like 16 or 17… No. Yeah, I decided to join the service. Joined when I was 18. I served for 16 years. I joined two weeks before 9/11. So, like, in my heart, it’s like I knew I joined for the right reasons.

[00:02:47] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm. Sure

[00:02:48] Paul Miller: anyway, it wa- Well, it, like, lets me know that I didn’t join for some manipulation thing. I’m like… Anyway, served 16 [00:03:00] years. I did several tours in Iraq, a little bit of time in Kuwait. ~Um,~ I was infantry. ~Um,~ then I reclassed to combat medic. Then in about 2015, I came down with a rare disease, ~um,~ and I was in the Army National Guard, but I spent a lot of time on active duty orders for the war.

[00:03:23] So there was, like, all this money floating around, you know, early on. So it’s like I got to spend a lot of time on active duty, which was good. And then in 2015, I got a rare disease that because of it, I was medically discharged and then got put out and started navigating civilian life as best I could

[00:03:48] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and th- that’s, from what I’ve heard, I, I, you know, I, I got out under, you know, kinda d- different circumstances, but, ~uh,~ from other folks who were medically retired from the military, they [00:04:00] had, ~uh,~ you know, something come up or, you know, maybe it’s an injury or an illness like in your case, and they end up getting out, and it, it’s almost like, ~uh,~ you know, they weren’t quite prepared for it.

[00:04:08] Like, maybe they were planning on staying in for, you know, 20 years or, or even more and, ~uh,~ then all of a sudden something happens and, ~uh,~ they’re like, “Oh, now what?” You know, “What do I, what do I do now? Who am I now? What, what’s the next, ~uh,~ what’s the next phase of life for me?” ~Um,~ you know, from your experience, what makes that change, that identity shift, ~uh,~ after getting out of the military?

[00:04:30] ~Uh,~ you know, was it difficult for you, and, and why do you think maybe it’s so difficult for so many o- ~uh,~ other veterans?

[00:04:35] Paul Miller: So I remember the first time I first… I think I did four or six years the first enlistment,

[00:04:44] Scott DeLuzio: Okay

[00:04:45] Paul Miller: and the first enlistment that came up, I thought it was cool. I reenlisted, got a bonus. I was like, “Yes.” Then another one came up, and I just wholeheartedly did it. And then when [00:05:00] I hit about the 10-year somewhere mark in there, that next reenlistment, I gave it a little bit of time, and I was like, “I, I couldn’t imagine my life without this, so I’m gonna go for my full 20 since I’m this far.”

[00:05:13] Like, ’cause I think everybody plays around with that idea of, like, getting out, but for me it was, like, my family. So I had set this marker in my mind of roughly when it was gonna be done, and, and I was totally cool with that. I loved it. ~Um,~ but being put out before you’re ready is so, in my opinion, traumatic to identity and to the life you…

[00:05:49] the plans you have in life and the goals you have set because you’re like, “Ugh, I got this staff NCO thing down.” You know? I, I [00:06:00] know roughly when I’ll get promoted. I know when training is. I know soldiers rotate out. You know, blah, blah, blah, what I need to do to maintain, and then all that’s gone. So, like, the military was this pillar of identity for so many people, and because it’s, like, how you act, how you talk.

[00:06:20] It’s part of your being basically, and then it gets ripped away and without any warning. That is traumatic ’cause then you’re sitting there, you’re like, ” Who am I? I don’t have a uniform to put on. I don’t have a mission. I don’t have my normal family around me.” And the, my family was people in uniform. And You get lost inside of yourself.

[00:06:51] That’s what I found, and I’m- and I’ve heard other people struggling with the identity issue of like, “Who am I? [00:07:00] What do I do?” Like, it’s, it’s traumatic in my opinion. Very traumatic

[00:07:06] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and, and it’s, it’s something that kinda happens all at once, whereas, ~uh,~ you know, you might have had a set of circumstances if you didn’t have this, this medical issue come up, ~uh,~ where stay in for another four years and, and you can kinda see that coming up on the horizon. And over time you can say, “Okay, well, I know that 20 is coming up.

[00:07:30] I got, you know, four years, three years, two years,” whatever, and, ~uh,~ do I need to do for that next, that next act, that next phase of life?

[00:07:38] Paul Miller: Yes

[00:07:39] Scott DeLuzio: start planning that out, you know, whether it’s, you know, going to school and getting a, a, you know, a degree or, you know, some sort of training in for a, a job that you wanted to do after the fact.

[00:07:48] ~Um,~ or, you know, it is. You know, may- maybe looking in where do I wanna live even, you know, w- you know, what part of the country do I wanna live in? What part of the world even? You know, I know some veterans even, [00:08:00] you know, find places on, you know, other, in other countries. And, and, ~uh,~ you know, you at least would have time to kinda start planning those things.

[00:08:08] But then when it all kinda happens all at once, it’s like, wait a minute, I, I used to have all this time, now I don’t. Now, like, now it… That, that future date that I, I had in my head is now today, and now I gotta figure out what am I gonna do? Where, where do I do it? How do I do it? All that kinda stuff. Plus, you’re adding in this, this additional, ~uh,~ situation of having a, ~uh,~ a medical condition that you weren’t planning on having to, to begin with, right?

[00:08:35] And so this, this makes things that much more difficult, I would imagine, for you, right?

[00:08:40] Paul Miller: It’s kinda like a trauma hidden inside a trauma.

[00:08:45] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:08:46] Paul Miller: losing the ability to walk is traumatic, but then having another one sneaking in, it’s like, all right, you’re gonna be discharged and you’re no longer gonna have the uniform, so once you get over [00:09:00] this, this issue’s gonna kick off.

[00:09:01] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:09:02] Paul Miller: ~Um,~ and yeah, like a person can literally f- feel lost inside ’cause that planning time is gone.

[00:09:09] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:09] Paul Miller: That target is gone. You know, it’s like, I guess if you’re headed to an objective and you know, like, we’re gonna go hit this objective, but then you get ambushed way before you get there ’cause in your mind, you prepare for something, and you amp up, amp up, amp up, and you’re like, “Oh, I’m here.” But it’s like, boom.

[00:09:30] Like, not expect-

[00:09:31] Scott DeLuzio: yeah, and even, you know, when in situations like what you were just describing, you know, in, in training, you, you plan for what happens if we do get ambushed, and, and how do we react to contact and, and all that kind of stuff. So you kinda have a plan. You may not know exactly where the ambush is coming from.

[00:09:48] Is it gonna come from, you know, the mountaintops? Is it gonna come from a building? Is it gonna come from, you know, the field ac- across the way or where- wherever it’s gonna come from, you, you may not necessarily know. But when it happens, the training kinda kicks in, and you can, you [00:10:00] can kinda fall back on that.

[00:10:01] But when you have something that’s completely unexpected, completely out of the blue that you’ve done no preparation for, likely, ~um,~ you know, and who does? You know, I, I can’t sit here and say, “Yes, I’m, I’m prepared if, you know, tomorrow all of a sudden I have this medical, you know, injury or disability or, or something, that I know exactly what I’m gonna do.”

[00:10:20] I likely know I have no idea what I would do. I’d, I’d have to try to figure it out at that point. ~Um,~ I think a lot of us probably fall into that category. ~Um,~ and so, you know, w- what do you do? And, and how do you, ~um,~ how do you kinda reframe your mindset to be able to push through this and, and rebuild yourself and figure out how to do that?

[00:10:39] Like in, for, in your case, ~um,~ you know, how did y- how did these experiences, you know, between getting discharged and, ~uh,~ you know, the medical issues that you’re having, ~um,~ h- how did you kind of, ~uh,~ get yourself to, to push through and, and, ~uh,~ you know, be resilient in the face of all this?

[00:10:54] Paul Miller: There was always this, like, little voice [00:11:00] inside of my head, I guess my soul or whatever it may be, but just always telling me there was something bigger for me to do.

[00:11:07] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm

[00:11:08] Paul Miller: always like, “I have something else to do.” But in the initial days of it, I literally just took it one day at a time and just saw it as, like, being in a battle.

[00:11:19] It’s like I have to walk again, so I’m gonna focus on that. And then I would literally for years overcome this hurdle of walking. Then… And that took a few months. Then the very next year, I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. That was a whole another battle. I had to stay focused and overcome that. And then during this, I’m dealing with identity of losing service.

[00:11:47] So I stayed really focused on my immediate surroundings. I didn’t think about the future much just because I think that would be scary,

[00:11:55] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm

[00:11:56] Paul Miller: I needed to stay focused right where I was. [00:12:00] But then after I overcame, like kind of life leveled out with MS, ~um,~ my wife left me with the kids in twenty twenty, and so my whole life shattered, gone.

[00:12:13] I lived in a town that wasn’t my hometown. I didn’t really have any friends, maybe one or two, and I had no, like, support group really. It was tiny. ~Um,~ so I was like, just yet again, just like crushed because I had found my identity yet again from losing my time in service or u- losing uniform and being a stay-at-home dad.

[00:12:36] I was medically retired, had a retirement. It’s like, I’m gonna be a great dad and just pour into being a dad and all this stuff. And so I found fulfillment in that, and then it was taken away. So I was like, “Oh, well, I feel hollow yet again.” It’s another pillar of identity. ~Um,~ for like almost a year I was fighting to get my kids back.

[00:12:55] ~Um,~ and that was a tragedy in itself.

[00:12:58] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:12:58] Paul Miller: ~Um,~ so [00:13:00] at first it was Discovering that I was lost inside without all these external things of saying, “This is who you are.”

[00:13:10] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm

[00:13:11] Paul Miller: Do this role and this is who you are, and we find, ~um,~ comfort in that of like, I’m wearing a uniform and they see me as this, so I must be a soldier.

[00:13:24] I change diapers, I go to the grocery store, wash dishes, I must be a stay-at-home dad. And then I started a business and it’s like, “Oh, I’m a businessman. I have a business with a name and people buy things, so I’m a businessman.” I had to shut that down and actually, like, that was traumatic, when you shut something down that you’ve worked on for so long.

[00:13:47] So I just had these, like, rough situation after rough situation just nonstop. And I finally got to the point where I didn’t know who I was. [00:14:00] I was on the phone talking to one of my old first sergeants, and I was like… I was crying. I was like, “I don’t know who I am. I literally do not know who I am.” And I guess you could call it a midlife crisis, basically.

[00:14:13] ~Um,~ and what I came to is that I had never chosen who I wanted to be. I had never planned on the character that I wanted to be, as in, what would I do to be me? ‘Cause I was always trying to make everybody else happy, fill these roles, and when they get pulled away, it’s like it’s not part of me anymore.

[00:14:35] Wait, what is me? And so it’s literally like a crisis, identity crisis. And, and what I eventually came to is, like, I had to build who I wanted to be. I had to plan that and then start living that and stop trying to please other people, stop trying to find these systems that I could be in to get an identity of like, [00:15:00] “Ooh, they validate me acting in this way,” so it’s like now I have some semblance of me.

[00:15:05] It’s like-

[00:15:07] Scott DeLuzio: But yeah, ~uh,~ I think that’s an important point is finding what is, ~uh,~ meaningful and, and, and, ~uh,~ impactful to you and not necessarily the external folks around you. Obviously, you know, if you have a family, you want your family to be happy and healthy and, you know, do, do the things that you need to, to provide for them.

[00:15:25] But, ~uh,~ eh, you know, at the same time, how you do that is open to interpretation. And, you know, as far as, ~uh,~ a career, a career doesn’t necessarily define you. It, or it shouldn’t necessarily define you, but oftentimes we apply that label. You know, I’m a, I’m a soldier, I’m a doctor, I’m a accountant, I’m a, you know, a mechanic, I’m a, you know, whatever.

[00:15:45] I’m, I’m a, that is who I am, ~um,~ is, is very often how we, we end up, ~uh,~ describing ourselves as, as far as, like, what our, our work is. ~Um,~ but there’s other things too. Like you said, you know, you’re, you’re a father. You, you know, ~uh,~ you, you had, you had a family to take [00:16:00] care of, and that was a big piece of your identity.

[00:16:03] What, what you, ~uh,~ felt like was, you know, I’m gonna be a stay-at-home dad, and I’m gonna, I’m gonna pour myself into this and do the best that I can. But, ~um,~ but then again, that can get ripped away from you, too. So, you know, where do you find, ~uh,~ that, that fulfillment, that, that piece inside of you that is, is yours?

[00:16:21] No one can take this away from you. No one can, ~uh,~ you know, rob you of this. It’s, it’s you. It’s who you are and, and, ~uh,~ you know, where, where do you find that, I think is kind of the, ~um,~ you know, the, the thing that you have to look at. And, ~um,~ it, it’s not an easy thing to do all the time. ~Um,~ you know, very often we, we keep focusing on those external things. ~Um,~ but, you know, I think we do need to maybe sometimes rely on, ~uh,~ you know, what, what’s going on inside of us and, and what would be fulfilling to us. ~Um,~ and, and that’s, that’s a, a difficult thing to do, especially when coming out of a, you know, military surrounding where in the, literally the name is in it, in the military service.

[00:16:58] You’re of service [00:17:00] to other people. ~Um,~ how, how do you now turn that inwards and say, “How do I serve myself? How do I, I do those things for myself,” right? And, ~um,~ that, that’s, I think, the, the tricky part that a lot of folks, ~uh,~ kinda get stuck on, right?

[00:17:12] Paul Miller: Oh, big time. And, and I think you hit on something so crucial. It’s like just kind of being yourself and to reconnect with yourself of like, what is me? Like, what is my mission? What am I supposed to do? Because we’re so… And this is what I learned, and I’ve met other people that have kind of gone through this as well, which was super validating, that they had to reconnect with themselves because they had been pleasing externally their whole life and s- for so long.

[00:17:48] Then when you’re by yourself and you have nobody giving you this validation, it’s like you don’t know what to do, and you can lash out, freak out and do all this stuff, and it’s like [00:18:00] nobody cares. You

[00:18:01] know, w- who am I? Like, how am I supposed to act? And, and that– a lot of that I discovered is like self-love and reconnecting with myself and being like, “Okay, I need to care for myself first.

[00:18:15] It matters how I feel.” And I– and when I say that, it’s like for other people too, like listening, it’s like it matters how you feel on the inside because the realest things are in, it’s all happening inside of you. Like when you see stuff, it goes into your brain and you see it in your brain. Sound goes in there and you hear it in your brain.

[00:18:36] You touch things and it goes in, you hear it in your brain. So your whole world is happening inside of you. Like you can see distance, you know, and hear distance and like 3D stuff, but it’s the way your brain processes it. So it’s like learning to be at home inside this body and loving it and caring for it and appreciating yourself.

[00:18:55] And I learned that it’s like [00:19:00] Some people are, like in religion, you’re taught that it’s selfish. You know, they ca- they love themselves so much. They’re so selfish, you know? But you can be super humble and care for your body and be… have an organized mind, and then the better you care for yourself, your body, the better you can care for other people.

[00:19:20] And the coolest thing there is, like, when you feel that self-love, you want other people to feel it, and then you’re like, “Ooh, I’m gonna be nice to them. I’m gonna be nice to them.” And then it’s like coming from such a genuine place versus I’m gonna try to act how a religious person would act. I’m gonna try to do this nice thing and take a picture for social media for them to see it.

[00:19:44] Like, service comes from such a more pure place when you’re doing it out of knowing how it feels and you want them to feel that, and like acknowledging that their inner world is the most important thing to them.

[00:19:59] Scott DeLuzio: [00:20:00] Right.

[00:20:00] Paul Miller: ~Um~

[00:20:00] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I, I’ve said this probably hundreds of times on this show, but it’s, the same idea as, ~uh,~ you know, if you’re on an airplane and they tell you to put your oxygen ma- mask on first and then help others around you. ~Um,~ it’s not selfish that you’re doing that, it’s just you’d be pretty useless to the person next to you if you’re passing out as you’re trying to help them.

[00:20:17] So take care of yourself first, and then you can take care of the other people. And it’s… It, it just makes sense. But then when we go apply it to other f- areas of our lives, ~uh,~ we get hung up on that. Like, “Oh, no, I, I’m selfish because, you know, may- my religion tells me I’m, I’m selfish for taking care of myself,” or society or some other internal, ~uh,~ messaging that you might have with yourself is, is telling you that that’s, that’s a selfish thing.

[00:20:45] You can’t do that and take care of yourself. You gotta run yourself ragged and make sure that everyone else is taken care of first. ~Um,~ but y- you can, you can do that, but not forever. You know? You, you can, you can go outta your way to help somebody who’s in need, ~um,~ and [00:21:00] not, not be like, “Oh, man, that, that guy’s, you know, pinned down by a car, but you know what?

[00:21:03] I’m kinda hungry, so I’m gonna go grab a burger first,” you know?

[00:21:06] Paul Miller: Gotta fuel up

[00:21:07] Scott DeLuzio: so you, you can put yourself aside for, you know, certain things for, for a little bit, but you, you gotta, you gotta, ~uh,~ be able to kinda weigh that balance, and you can’t do that forever. You know?

[00:21:17] Paul Miller: Yeah

[00:21:18] Scott DeLuzio: you can’t go save everybody, ~um,~ you know, if, if, ~um,~ you’re not taking care of yourself as well. you know, so I, I wanna, ~uh,~ wanna talk a little bit about, ~uh,~ Uncivilized Rebirth. ~Um,~ we kinda danced around that a little bit earlier, I think, and, ~uh, um,~ tell me a little bit about, ~uh,~ Uncivilized Rebirth and, and what that’s all about, and, ~uh,~ then we- maybe we can kinda dive into a little bit more about that.

[00:21:37] Paul Miller: Yeah, sure. So the name first off, Uncivilized Rebirth, is being who you wanna be outside of society structures. Uncivilized is like, not uncivilized as being a caveman, but, ~uh,~ uncivilized as I’m not gonna fill this role. I’m not gonna try to pretend to be [00:22:00] this. I’m not gonna play this part anymore. I’m gonna be me as in rebirth ’cause from a young age, humans are in a human…

[00:22:10] I call it a human herd in America, and you get put into a program, a– I call it a government programming facility. So you put them in a government, a public school, and then for like literally 12 something years, you have to go here, sit here, learn to think this way, learn to spit this information back out.

[00:22:34] And then you go out, and you get programmed by what you see on TV to wear or what popular thing is to like, to go do for vacation. And you’re in this zoo where you’re told how to dress, how to think, how to do everything, how to act, how to make sounds. Like, one of our biggest freedoms as a human is our freedom to [00:23:00] believe what we want and the bree-freedom to make sounds.

[00:23:03] We are controlled from a young age of what sounds we can and can’t make. I think that’s horrendous actually. Language is useful, but you’re telling these humans, “You can’t make that sound. You can’t make that sound.” So then there’s all these glass ceilings, but getting programmed in at a very young age. So when you’re older, it’s like, “We don’t have to worry about this human because we conditioned it from a very young age.”

[00:23:29] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:23:29] Paul Miller: So Uncivilized Rebirth is undoing that conditioning, undoing the belief systems and their structures I’ve built. One is the character trigger, and that’s the core of it is this structure that you create yourself. It has tapping, breathwork, visualization. You create your own symbol, which this part’s super cool, and then you fill out a character sheet of who you want to become.

[00:23:58] And this is [00:24:00] becoming the version of you that you think could be amazing and not being the old version of you that’s conditioned by society. Imagine going around and when people speak to you, their words mean nothing and you respond how you want to.

[00:24:16] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:24:17] Paul Miller: ‘ Cause if somebody comes up and they’re like, “Hey,” and they give a loud hey and a whistle, you’re like, you look where like, “Is that me?”

[00:24:23] Or your inner– You know how you energetically feel that hit sometimes like I’m late. You look at the clock, you’re like, “Oh crap.” That’s conditioning straight up. What if an- anything that came in your brain, you were able just to look at it and then be like, “This is how I’ll respond”? Because the human brain, like we’ve been around for a long time.

[00:24:45] Humans have been studying humans for a long time. We have been studied so much like, and we are the most highly trainable species on Earth. So [00:25:00] We have a soul in our body, and we are not free. Once you’ve been programmed by language and conditioned, stop at this light, which I understand for safety, but still you stop thinking about driving.

[00:25:13] Sometimes you zone back in, you’re like, “How did I drive three miles and not even know it?”

[00:25:17] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, right

[00:25:18] Paul Miller: You were literally conditioned and programmed to do that. And so you create a character sheet and then a symbol, and whenever you look at the Nike symbol, you kind of know everything about that company. Or you see the Apple symbol and you think about a sleek design, you know, that CEO who was a little bit of a-hole and maniacal, but he did a great job.

[00:25:42] And you think about their stores and their, ~um,~ customer relations, and you get this feel of like, that’s a pretty good company, and they protect their brand very well. Just like, you know, Nike, just do it. Oh, that’s a sports company. Tennis shoes, ~uh,~ Michael Jordan, all that stuff populates in your [00:26:00] brain because here’s a powerful thing about symbols.

[00:26:03] Information can be connected to a symbol. That visual symbol can access all that data at once. You don’t have to think about it in a certain order and be like, “Mm, what was that word? What was this thing?” It’s like, it’s all there.

[00:26:17] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, right

[00:26:19] Paul Miller: So– And that’s a feeling. There’s an identity with that company, you know? And so when you create your own symbol and create your own character sheet of who you want to be, then whenever you see your own symbol, all that information that you’ve programmed in because there’s a process to it, there’s a proper way to do it.

[00:26:39] Well, I say proper is the way I’m created it, and it works that way. So when you think about your symbol and s- obsess about it, you get a feeling of all the things you want to learn, how you want to act. It’s basically a new codex. I call it like lifting the needle off your character reel and putting in new [00:27:00] programming.

[00:27:00] Scott DeLuzio: Okay

[00:27:00] Paul Miller: how people are like, “Oh, that’s just Tim. That’s just Anitra,” or, or whoever. Those are people I used to know, but it was not referring to them if they ever watch this. It’s just two random people, and it’s like

[00:27:10] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:27:11] Paul Miller: just how they are. That’s not how we have to be Because if people programmed us externally, we can program ourselves internally from the inside out.

[00:27:22] And so it just takes awareness and certain processes. And so, ~um,~ what we’ll– what I do is like there’s tapping where you program in tapping, doing breathwork, so you have a very calm mind. Then you visualize your character, your symbol, you do your tapping. And so eventually when you do it enough, when you do your tapping, wherever you set your tapping up, all your information populates in your brain about the character you want to be.

[00:27:52] So to get a little deeper, so let’s say there’s this old behavior that Paul does, [00:28:00] and to– for that behavior to happen automatically, there has to be this external stimuli or an internal stimuli. Maybe it’s twelve o’clock at night or I feel lonely, and then all of a sudden this process kicks in like a robot.

[00:28:14] I go to the refrigerator, get ice cream out, go sit down and watch TV. But I know I don’t want to do it, but I do it, and I do it, and I do it. What’s happening is there’s energy going into the brain, going down a neural pathway, going to a marker saying, “Do this process.” And then the energy goes out and it’s like a sheet of music on a player piano.

[00:28:37] It gets put on and the body’s like, “Oh, move the arm, walk over here, open the fridge, grab the ice cream, get the spoon.” They’re processes that I’ve programmed in doing it over and over, and I get that ice cream dopamine hit. So the goal is to get that energy when it’s going down that neural pathway that’s really, ~um,~ [00:29:00] refined or like a really beat down path that you walk up to like you’re lost in the woods and you see this awesome path, but it leads to a bad spot.

[00:29:08] But you follow the dang path because it’s so easy to follow.

[00:29:11] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:29:12] Paul Miller: You got to create a new path in your brain, a new neural pathway to this new behavior that you want to do. So the character trigger is designed To capture that energy. And then once that energy is in a new marker, you’re like, “Okay, I’m gonna operate from this identity and do this new thing.”

[00:29:33] And it’s not easy building new neural pathways to a new activity when you could easily do the old one where the energy is going down that old pathway. So with this, somebody has to be, ~um,~ feeding their brain the proper nutrients to build the neural pathways, the myelin coating, the, ~um,~ for those neurons to fire.

[00:29:55] Like, if you have a highway and you’re like, “We’re gonna build a [00:30:00] Walmart over here,” and you have no exit, nobody can get there. Then there’s like, okay, we have all the instructions to build the exit, but we have no building material. That’s what it’s like for the brain. So when people are trying to do new things or do new behaviors or do that, they’re like, “I just can’t keep it up.”

[00:30:18] Well, one thing is like, if you don’t feed the brain right, you can’t… Your brain can’t build those things in there. So it’s literally wasting your time. You might be able to do it once. You know, you have the marker, I can do this skill, but I want to get it where I do it automatically.

[00:30:34] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:30:35] Paul Miller: So like I would– like part of it is with the inner work of like wanting to change how you are or how a person is, it’s changing your energy output and making sure you can build those pathways in your mind.

[00:30:52] So it’s, it’s so much more than like, “Go take a cold shower and r- you know, be David Goggins. Just be [00:31:00] hard.” No, like you gotta love yourself where you’re at. You gotta have the knowledge of what’s going on inside. ~Um,~ and then you need like the character trigger, in my opinion, to really… ‘Cause once you use it enough and you can activate it, it’s a feeling you get of having that future version of yourself.

[00:31:20] But then it’s like, ooh. It’s like this is… You start to embody that new identity. It… And it takes time, but it’s a r- it’s a really cool program

[00:31:30] Scott DeLuzio: It, it sounds like it, and it, it sounds like it makes a lot of sense, too, ~um,~ where, ~uh,~ y- you know, if you’re, if you’re just doing this on your own and not really… just kind of floating through life. You’re not, you’re not really giving it much thought, and it’s like, “Gee, why isn’t, why isn’t anything just working for me?

[00:31:49] Why isn’t anything, you know, working out the way I, I, I want it to?” ~Um,~ but you keep doing the same thing that you’ve always done, probably gonna keep getting the same results that you’ve always gotten. And [00:32:00] so making some sort of changes along the way is going to be necessary. ~Um,~ now one of the things that you, you mentioned, and I, I just wanted to back to, ~uh,~ you mentioned, like, the nutrition, kinda like the, ~uh,~ the, the building materials for the, the exit ramp, ~um,~ f- so that your brain can, ~uh,~ rebuild those, ~uh,~ those connections so that they go to the right place and not, not down the wrong path.

[00:32:24] Paul Miller: Yeah.

[00:32:24] Scott DeLuzio: what are some of those things that you would recommend as far as the, the nutrition goes to, ~uh,~ be able to build those things? ‘Cause we, we may have the goal in mind. We may have like, “Hey, I wanna, I wanna do things this way and that w- you know, whatever,” and we have our, our plan in, in mind. But, ~um,~ you know, without the, the right building materials, we, we may just, ~uh,~ be looking at some blueprints with no actual way of getting that done.

[00:32:46] Paul Miller: Yes. So here’s the way I do it. I eat leafy greens and vegetables because those are micronutrients that the body needs. It’s like vegetables are filters [00:33:00] for the nutrients we need from the ground. So I was like, I eat the ve- the leafy greens, all that good stuff. And then I like to take vitamin B supplement with thiamine, ~uh,~ vitamin D, fish oils or vitamin B complex, ~um,~ omega-3 fish oils for like brain food because we need to fuel the brain.

[00:33:22] ~Um,~ if we’re just eating junk food, it doesn’t have the energy

[00:33:25] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:33:26] Paul Miller: work. And so there– and there’s a couple other that I, others that I can’t think of right now, but I’d keep it simple. The vitamin B complex with thiamine, vitamin D, omega-3 fish oils, and leafy greens, and lots of leafy greens. That’s what our body needs.

[00:33:44] And I’ll eat eggs too, and, ~um,~ I like ghee butter. That’s a good brain food also.

[00:33:49] Scott DeLuzio: Okay

[00:33:51] Paul Miller: and then here’s a good cheat for that also is like in the program, I have cheat sheets, like PDFs. As you get to a certain point, it’s like, okay, here’s this [00:34:00] PDF to go over, like for grocery lists, you know, for feeding your brain.

[00:34:04] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:05] Paul Miller: ~Um,~ and I don’t have all that memorized,

[00:34:06] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,

[00:34:07] Paul Miller: but it’s easy to go to ChatGPT and be like, “Okay, pretend that you’re a neurologist and that I need to bring– feed my brain as, as well as possible to create a new neural pathway. What foods and what supplements would I take to do that?” And it’ll be like, “Boom, here you go.”

[00:34:29] And it’ll literally– Because it can access the human resource database of like about humanity, so it can tell you exactly how to shop to feed your brain right.

[00:34:39] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:40] Paul Miller: And so, yes, I think I should be able to sit here and spit all the proper data, but what I do is I keep it simple. ~Um,~ very simple, because it’s not that complex

[00:34:52] Scott DeLuzio: Well, and, and that, that’s a good thing, I think, ~uh,~ for, especially for folks who are, ~um,~ you know, listening to this and thinking, “Gee, I don’t wanna change [00:35:00] my whole diet around or, you know, ev- change everything about everything that I, I am doing.” ~Um,~ you know, ma- making a few changes, you know, g- taking some supplements, some vitamins, and, and those types of things, that’s not a huge, ~uh,~ change, I don’t think, for, for many people.

[00:35:13] You can, you can easily do that. Go, go into the store and get, finding some decent quality, ~uh,~ you know, vitamins and, ~um,~ you know, see how that works for you. And, ~um,~ you know, eat some more salad or you know, tho- those types of things. Like it’s, it’s not like the end of the world. It’s not, you know, like, ~uh,~ you know, to, to make that, those kind of changes f- in your life. ~Um,~ and, and see how that, that helps you, you know, along the way. ~Um,~ you know, don’t, don’t eat one salad and say, “Well, it didn’t work for me, and, you know, ~uh,~ I, I give up.” You know, you, you, you’re probably gonna have to have more than one salad, I’m, I’m guessing, in order for this to, to, ~uh,~ be effective. But, ~um,~ you know, it’s, ~uh,~ it’s, it’s kinda, you know, just working your way through the problem.

[00:35:51] ~Um,~ you know, again, we go back to, you know, you’re, you’re on a patrol and you get ambushed, and okay, this is a new piece of information. I, I have to, ~uh,~ you know, [00:36:00] figure out where, where the, the ambush is coming from. How do I react to it? What do I need to do? And you, you, you just react, and you, you adapt, and you, ~uh,~ you know, ideally overcome whatever the situation is that you’re, you’re dealing with. ~Um,~ but I know, I know a lot of times, ~uh,~ folks, especially dealing with, ~uh,~ veterans dealing with PTSD or other kind of traumas, ~um,~ you know, even, even stuff like with what you were experiencing with the, the medical, ~uh,~ issues that you were having and, and, ~uh,~ the discharge, your, your children getting taken away from you, all those kind of things, is ~Um,~ know a lot of f- times folks dealing with these traumatic in- incidents, ~uh, uh,~ they end up having some sort of limiting beliefs that they, ~uh,~ they, they just feel stuck and they, they don’t, they don’t even believe that they are capable of doing anything, ~uh,~ you know, more than what they’re currently doing. ~Um,~ and so, like how can they start challenging those beliefs in, in a way that allow them to, ~uh,~ kinda move down the path that you were just describing?

[00:36:56] Paul Miller: So [00:37:00] Those are those glass ceilings als-also talking about, like

[00:37:03] Scott DeLuzio: sure

[00:37:03] Paul Miller: we’re growing up or being raised or we go through a traumatic event, we can feel worthless. “Oh, my wife left. I’m pathetic.”

[00:37:13] You know, Oh, I failed this. I’ll never be useful.” And then those are those limiting beliefs. But in challenging that, it’s scary to…

[00:37:25] And because that becomes like part of who we are, and we become in this certain bubble of like, we don’t expand too far this way. We don’t explore too far this way. We don’t do too much this way. And so we limit ourselves, and we stay inside of that.

[00:37:41] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:42] Paul Miller: But to expand out of that, we have to initially look at what’s this limiting belief, and why do I have it, and what do I want to believe?

[00:37:52] What do I want to believe is true? What do I believe I can do? And that’s part of like developing the character [00:38:00] of like, who do you want to be? It’s like… And then in those moments when you come up to those glass ceilings of, let’s say it’s, “I’m gonna go date again after divorce, but I’m worthless. You know, I’m tainted goods.

[00:38:13] I’m no good,” and then I just pull back.

[00:38:16] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:16] Paul Miller: And then when those things come up, and it could be anywhere, it could be learning a new skill, getting a new job, or going into a new territory, whatever it is, we have to choose, okay, the version of the person that I want to be would do this. It’s fear. So now I would have somebody activate their character trigger and then be like, “I’m gonna do this now because this no longer serves me.”

[00:38:44] And then also it helps to do the deep dives by yourself, be like, “What was the initial thing that got me here?” Like, “Why do I hesitate at this?” And if we dig deep enough, seek and ye shall find, like you’ll find where you were in your [00:39:00] past, whether something happened, you learned something, maybe religion.

[00:39:05] Religion, in my opinion, is very limiting to our human capacity. And you’re like, “Oh, that’s where I started believing that.” And then ask yourself, “Does this serve me?” And then gently tell yourself, “You know what? I give myself complete grace for being this way. I did this to protect myself. I d-didn’t choose to believe this at this time, but this no longer serves me to believe this, and I’m gonna be uncomfortable stepping into this new season.”

[00:39:35] But when you choose to feel uncomfortable from being in your comfort zone, you’re growing, and you realize like, “Oh, it’s not that bad.” You know, it’s like when your parents are trying to… Or you’re literally, you’re, “I don’t want to eat that,” and you take your bite and you’re like, “Ooh, that’s good.”

[00:39:51] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, right

[00:39:52] Paul Miller: I, for years I wouldn’t eat it.

[00:39:54] So you have to become uncomfortable to grow And you step through that. [00:40:00] Challenge those limiting beliefs, and then ask yourself like, “The highest version of me, like, how would I conduct myself? How do I see myself being?” And then you can run through visualizations. You know? Like athletes who perform at a high level, and soldiers as well, you know, it’s like they will play things out in their mind and visualize it and visualize it.

[00:40:25] And the thing about that is your subconscious is seeing it, and your brain is making a memory of you doing that. So now it has memories of the way you’re gonna conduct it. So here’s another little tool that I use in my work, is that somebody activates their character trigger. They go into their mental library, which is a really important piece.

[00:40:49] It’s like the operating system, how you interface inside your brain.

[00:40:52] Scott DeLuzio: Okay

[00:40:53] Paul Miller: And you go in there, and you imagine yourself that you’re 30 years in your [00:41:00] future, and you get that feeling. You look around, and you’re like, “Ooh.” Your subconscious sees you being 30 years in the future. You’re in that character that you’ve created, and now you’re making a memory.

[00:41:13] You’re– It’s being recorded, what you’re imagining. Then you remember back to the past to where you’re at And you know how you can remember like, “Oh, I remember all those times I went to the field and trained.” You know, you don’t have to remember each individual one, but you know all of them.

[00:41:30] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:41:31] Paul Miller: And then what you do is you remember all the times that you wanted to change and how you did change.

[00:41:37] You’re like, “Man, I remember doing so much better in all these, in all these events.” And let’s say it’s, ~um,~ meeting up with family members that are toxic and they make you blow up, ’cause family is such a contentious thing and they can keep us trapped in identities. And so you remember back 30 years in the past, I remember [00:42:00] all those times over the years after that I started controlling myself.

[00:42:04] I car- started controlling my emotions, and I did such a good job, and I was like so controlled, and I no longer fit the role that this family system wanted me to fit. Because a lot of people join the military ’cause they’re running away from a broken home,

[00:42:19] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:20] Paul Miller: and when they get out they can get put back in that role of playing small.

[00:42:25] But you’re a warrior. You went to war. You’ve done amazing stuff. You aren’t meant to play it small. Like you freaking bad A.

[00:42:33] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:42:34] Paul Miller: So you’re showing your subconscious and making a memory of all the things you did in the past that you’re going back in time to where you are now. So now your subconscious thinks it’s already happened.

[00:42:48] And so now when you go into those situations, you’re… and you hit your character trigger, check this out. There’s a coding now in those memories that identifies with that character [00:43:00] trigger, the character you want to be. So now when you in real time step into those situations, your subconscious is flipping through the files of programs.

[00:43:09] It’s like, how does this character act? How does this character… Boom, you control yourself. You control your emotions. You’re very clear with your words. And then y- you make it through these situations easier, and you keep doing this until it gets programmed in at the base level, so this is your base level of reacting.

[00:43:28] When I get triggered, I’m calm and cool and I say really calm things. Ooh, cool. I’m like reversing the whole triggering system.

[00:43:37] Scott DeLuzio: Sure, sure. And this, this to me makes sense too because, ~uh,~ there are, ~uh,~ other people that I, I’ve spoken with who have described, ~um,~ kind of a way to, to shift your mindset of who you are. ~Um,~ you know, if you are overweight and you have, you know, some, some health issues stemming from your, your weight [00:44:00] issues and, ~um,~ you want to be the type of person who to the gym, who eats well, who, ~uh,~ you know, does all the, the things that will help your, your weight and get you into better shape. ~Um,~ you tell yourself, “Okay, well, I am the type of person who, ~uh,~ you know, grabs a piece of fruit instead of a cookie,” or, ~uh,~ the, the type of person who, you know, goes to the gym instead of binging Netflix or, you know, tho- those types of things. And, and you start just telling yourself like that this is who I am, and eventually you do those things enough and it kind of becomes who you are.

[00:44:34] You know, so when you’re about to sit down and, and turn on Netflix, you’re, you’re like, “You know what? No. I… That’s not who I am. I’m, I’m the type of person who goes to the gym, so okay, let me go put my, my, ~uh,~ gym clothes on and I’ll, I’ll go to the gym and I’ll, I’ll get my exercise in.” ~Um,~ or, ~uh,~ you know, you’re in the grocery store and you’re about to buy some, some cookies or, you know, whatever, ~um, “Uh,~ you know what?

[00:44:53] Let’s go to the, the produce aisle instead and let’s get some, some, you know, fruits and vegetables and tho- those types of things and, and make some [00:45:00] healthier choices because that’s the type of person I am.” And, ~uh,~ you do those things enough, eventually it really does become who you are, and that, that’s just your, your baseline now. And as opposed to your, your previous baseline might, might have been something else that was, ~uh,~ a whole lot more unhealthy, and now you’re, you have a more much healthier baseline and, ~um,~ then you can, you can work on that and improve on that from there and say, “Okay, well, I’m… Not only am I, you know, the type of person who, ~uh,~ you know, goes to the gym, maybe I, ~uh,~ maybe I ride my bike to work,” or, you know, something like that too.

[00:45:32] And then I just add in those, those types of things to make even further refinements or, ~uh,~ you know, improvements on, on those types of things. But, ~um,~ you know, it, it can work i- if you believe it and you’re, you, you’re disciplined enough to, ~uh,~ kind of follow through with, with that as well, I think, right?

[00:45:46] Paul Miller: Yes, completely. And that’s reprogramming the brain, reprogramming the baseline. ‘Cause look at this, like, you join the military, like, here’s what a Marine is, and you’re gonna train and fill this role. [00:46:00] Here’s what an infantryman is in the Army. Here’s what an airman is. This is the role you’re gonna fill, and this is how you’re gonna do there, and we’re gonna make you do this stuff over and over and over till this is all you do,

[00:46:12] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:46:12] Paul Miller: that’s who you are.

[00:46:15] The character trigger is doing that. It’s like you’re going– you’re– in military and all these systems like police, firefighter, religion, ~um,~ whatever you go do, there’s something, a role you’re gonna fill, a character you’re gonna play. But now you’re saying, “What character do I wanna be? What role do I wanna be?”

[00:46:35] And then you do this stuff over and over and over until you create those baselines of who you wanna be. And, and you’re breaking out of those limiting beliefs, and you’re starting to eat healthy because, like, the highest version of a h- of a human is gonna eat clean.

[00:46:50] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:51] Paul Miller: Because, like, I tell my kids this, it’s like, “If you wanna build a strong house, do you use marshmallows or bricks?

[00:46:58] Bricks.”

[00:46:59] Scott DeLuzio: Right[00:47:00]

[00:47:00] Paul Miller: with the human body. Do you eat processed food or stuff from the ground? Because when we get put in the ground, whether anybody believes anything about where we came from or who created us, our bodies rot away and go back into the ground. And so to be the best version of ourselves, we need to feed ourselves from where we go back to and came from.

[00:47:24] I heard somebody say this. I forgot his name. Cool dude. I don’t think he’s alive anymore. But he’s like, “The Earth, when humans came along, the Earth peopled.” You know, it’s like an apple tree apples and the Earth peopled, and that’s where we came from. So, like, and like, I like where you were talking about eating clean and healthy.

[00:47:42] Like, that becomes part of who you are when you do it over and over, and you program that in.

[00:47:46] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:47] Paul Miller: ~Um,~ and it’s hard to fight the dopamine hits. That’s so freaking addictive. And, and the companies know that. That’s what they bank on completely

[00:47:58] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and it, and it’s [00:48:00] really hard, especially if you’re dealing with something that is, ~uh,~ quite addictive. It could be, ~uh,~ you know, or alcohol or, ~um, uh,~ e- even some types of foods, you know, sweets and, and even salty-type foods. So those types of foods that you just start to crave, ~um,~ and it subconsciously you kind of become the type of person who every day after dinner I’m gonna have a drink or two or three or four or, or whatever.

[00:48:27] And then that two or three or four becomes five or six or seven, and then it’s just easy to kind of fall into that trap of, oh, well, what’s one more? Oh, what’s one more? And then you, you start to become that. ~Um,~ and you’re not consciously thinking, “Oh, I wanna be that type of person who has seven or eight drinks a night.” You just kind of find yourself becoming that. ~Um,~

[00:48:51] Paul Miller: Yeah

[00:48:52] Scott DeLuzio: ~uh,~ oh, well, what’s the big deal if I have a, you know, drink at lunch or, you know, e- even earlier in the day or, or something. And it just makes it that much easier to [00:49:00] rationalize those bad behaviors, ~um,~ when, ~um…~ not to say that there’s anything wrong with, you know, having a drink every once in a while.

[00:49:06] ~Uh,~ that, that’s not what I’m, I’m trying to say. But th- you know, if, if that’s your, your default is like every day, ~uh,~ that’s what I’m doing, and every, every day, ~um,~ I’m gonna add more and more and more over time, ~uh,~ then, then it’s becoming a problem. And, ~uh,~ then you, you, you kinda need to tell yourself, “Okay, I am the type of person who maybe just doesn’t drink at all,” and let’s, let’s find something, ~uh,~ else that I can, I can say, you know, “This is the type of person I am.”

[00:49:30] May- maybe go to the gym instead or, you know, do something more productive with your time than just, you know, sitting, sitting around drinking a beer or, or whatever. Like, find something else to kinda occupy yourself that is you towards the type of person that you want to be ul- ultimately. And, and I…

[00:49:49] But I think going back to what you were saying before, you ultimately need to figure out who that person is, like who do you actually

[00:49:54] Paul Miller: Yes

[00:49:55] Scott DeLuzio: ~Um,~ and it’s not, ~uh,~ not easy when you don’t have a clear mind, when, when your mind’s [00:50:00] cluttered with, you know, drugs or alcohol or, you know, all sorts of other stuff that, that might just be, ~uh,~ rotting your mind away, right?

[00:50:06] Paul Miller: Oh, yeah. And, and I’ve been there.

[00:50:09] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:10] Paul Miller: I think a lot of people have, like, the drinking, the drugs or pills, and it is a slippery slope like you’re saying. You’re not thinking, “I’m gonna be a six-a-nighter, a 12-pack-a-nighter.”

[00:50:20] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:50:21] Paul Miller: It just slowly gets there. And the thing that I thought of when you were saying that, for anybody listening that might be there, it’s like Give yourself grace.

[00:50:32] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:33] Paul Miller: Stop with the shame, blame, judgment, and guilt, and be a loving coach to yourself. And really ask yourself, “Does this serve me anymore? Does it really serve me?” And maybe think about, like, what your great-grandkids will think about you. You know? It’s like, did he drink himself to death, or she? Was it just a drunk?

[00:50:55] Or did they stop drinking and change and turn their life around, you know, or [00:51:00] stop the drugs? And, but with that, instead of, like, driving a Ferrari down the road and then put it in reverse, all of a sudden totally change gears, we gotta give ourselves grace where we’re at. Like, anybody that walked your path would probably have ended up there where you’re at or maybe not have made it as far, ’cause there’s many people out there with stories that are just jaw-dropping.

[00:51:23] And it’s like, I understand why you drink. Understand, understand why you start doing drugs completely. But those seasons that we started those coping mechanisms are probably gone, and now it’s time to s- be like, “Okay, I don’t need to drink as much. You know what? It’s okay that I’m where I’m at, but I’m gonna slowly take steps to shift the direction I’m going.”

[00:51:51] You know? S- and, and when you give yourself grace and you love yourself and give yourself acceptance, you’re not operating from [00:52:00] shame, blame, and judgment because then when you’re like, “Oh, I failed again. I drank another beer. I’m drunk. Oh, I’m such a failure. Why even try?” Then you’re beating yourself up.

[00:52:11] That’s shame, blame, and judgment. You should be like, “You know what? I’m gonna try again tomorrow. Fuck it.” You know, “This is where I’m at. I’m gonna give myself grace, and I’m gonna try again,”

[00:52:20] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:52:21] Paul Miller: step back into that battle over and over. And to build something big, which a human character is a massive thing to build, it takes twenty-four/seven, it’s little step by little step.

[00:52:35] And then congratulate yourself. Let’s say you usually drink six beers, and one night you only drink two, and then you drink water. Be like, look yourself in the mirror and say, “I did a good job. I’m proud of myself. That’s fucking awesome, ’cause I coulda drank eight or six,

[00:52:50] Scott DeLuzio: That’s

[00:52:51] Paul Miller: I dialed it back.” Then you get that validation of those little steps, and you’re like, “Ooh, I wonder, can I do another little step?”

[00:52:59] [00:53:00] And before you know it, it’s, like, just water. You know? It’s like… And it’s a process. Like, it takes time, but you must love yourself tremendously. And i- it’s, and that is hard to accept, self-love. It is so hard.

[00:53:16] Scott DeLuzio: It is. And a lot of times in our, our heads, we are our own worst enemy, and we’re beating ourselves up, and we’re telling ourselves we’re, we’re not worth it or we’re not worthy of love or, ~uh,~ whatever good things might come to people by doing these more positive things. So what difference does it make anyways?

[00:53:34] I don’t deserve it, so, you know, maybe, maybe I just stick with the beer, or I stick with the, you know, getting drunk and doing drugs or whatever it is. ~Um,~ but to your, your point, like, it, it’s not an easy thing, but it’s, it’s so worth it because when you discover that these good things can happen to you, that if you allow them to, they, they can happen, ~um,~ y- you, you realize that your, your potential is, ~uh,~ [00:54:00] virtually limitless, where you can keep adding on another good thing, another good thing, another good thing until, ~uh,~ you know, you get to this version of yourself that you’re, you’re like, “I’m, I’m happy.

[00:54:10] I’m content with where I am right now. ~Uh,~ I don’t, I don’t need to change because of somebody else or, or whatever. I’m, I’m good right where I am, and if I do make a change, it’s ’cause I want to, and it’s because there’s something that I feel that I need to, ~uh,~ either add or remove or, or whatever, ~um,~ get to the place where I, I wanna be.

[00:54:31] But that’s on my terms, not, not somebody else’s.” Right?

[00:54:35] Paul Miller: Yes.

[00:54:36] Scott DeLuzio: So,

[00:54:37] Paul Miller: And

[00:54:38] Scott DeLuzio: yeah,

[00:54:39] Paul Miller: I’m sorry to talk to you

[00:54:40] Scott DeLuzio: yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s hard, but, ~um,~ you know, again, like we were saying, I, I, I think it’s, it’s totally worth it. But, ~um,~ I’m, I’m sure there are some veterans listening today maybe at a, a low point, and they wanna start moving towards a better future.

[00:54:53] ~Um,~ they, kinda maybe seeing that there, there could be a better future. Maybe they’re in a situation like you were in where, ~uh,~ you know, family’s [00:55:00] kinda falling apart or, ~um,~ you know, their health is not where they want it to be, or something is just not there. They’re, they’re not in a great place.

[00:55:07] What’s, what’s one small but meaningful step that they can take, ~uh,~ today, in the next 24 hours or in the next week or so to start moving themselves in th- that right direction towards a, a better future?

[00:55:19] Paul Miller: There’s a couple of things there I would say. ~Um,~ first off, mirror talk is so important.

[00:55:24] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:55:25] Paul Miller: When you get up in the morning, look in the mirror in your right eye and say, “I love you,” three times. Look in your left eye and say, “I love you,” three times. And at first it feels awkward, it really does. But when you do it over and over, your subconscious sees another person looking back at you, telling you that you’re loved, and it’s okay to love the vessel that you’re in.

[00:55:48] And right now it may feel like a really dark cloud over your life and like things are spiraling out of control. And the only thing you can control is yourself. And so what [00:56:00] I would say is sit down for a few minutes and envision your life, what you would want it to look like in thirty years, the most amazing version of yourself.

[00:56:13] And sit with that for a few minutes, what that would feel like. And it’s hard when you’re in the dark. I know it is. It sucks. But imagining is for free. So you can do that. And then come back to where you are and be like, ” You know what? It’s okay to be where I am. I give myself full grace.” And then the first things that I would tell you to do is keep making your bed, take your trash out, check your mail, do your laundry, fold your laundry, do your dishes, sweep your floor.

[00:56:42] Take care of what you can take care of, because right now, in this dark days, these dark days, you’re building habits. You’re building habits. So now is the time to lean on your discipline that you still have and take care of what you can take care of, because [00:57:00] when you come home to a messy house, everything gets worse.

[00:57:05] You’re like, “Oh, I gotta do this. I can’t even take the trash out. I c- I’m a fucking failure.” You know? It’s like, “My dishes are piled up, my floor is trashy.” Well, that’s your fucking fault. That’s the truth. It… But when you come home to a clean house in a shitty situation, you have a clear space. You don’t have this chaos energy, and you’re like, “Okay, cool.

[00:57:26] I did something good. Heck yeah.”

[00:57:28] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:57:29] Paul Miller: And so it’s like, if you’re in a situation, a shitty situation, just focus right where you are right now. Imagine where you can be, and then start doing the small things around you because those are victories. That’s a… Sometimes all you can do is make your bed when you’re so depressed and sad, but that’s a freaking victory

[00:57:48] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Yeah. And, take those small steps and d- do that one, one thing, and then, you know, add, add onto that if you can, ~uh,~ you know, wh- when you can. You know, start [00:58:00] adding onto those things and, and you, you work yourself towards that better future, I think, right?

[00:58:05] And, ~um,~ you know, I, I think, ~uh,~ a lot of folks out there are, are probably in that, that situation.

[00:58:10] They’re, they’re in that, that low point. They’re in, ~uh,~ that, that situation. But, you know, doing those small little things, ~um,~ you know, to your, your point, you know, if you come home to a house that’s a mess, you know, that, that is your fault. ~Uh,~ if, if you left it a mess, well, it- that’s your fault. You… Bottom line, you can’t blame anybody else for leaving a mess when it’s your mess that, that you left there. ~Um,~ at, at the same respect, you can also, ~uh,~ look at it on the, on the flip side, I, I guess I should say, ~uh,~ where if you come home to a clean house, that’s also on you. You know, because you took care of that, and you cleaned it, and you, you made sure that it… Or, or maintained it anyways, if it was already

[00:58:43] Paul Miller: Yes

[00:58:44] Scott DeLuzio: You know, it’s, it’s a lot easier to maintain a clean house than it is to start from scratch at a filthy, you know, garbage everywhere and, you know, just a, a complete mess. So, you know, if you’re able to do that, ~um,~ that, that’s also on you, and that’s something you can say, “Okay, well, [00:59:00] did something good here.

[00:59:01] I, you know, look at this. It’s, it’s actually, you know, in pretty good shape.” You know? And that… Is it gonna be perfect? No. You, you live there, so, you know, it’s, it’s never gonna be perfect, especially if you have kids. I, I think anyone who has kids could probably understand that. But, ~um, uh,~ you know, it, it is what it is.

[00:59:15] You know? If it, if it’s in pretty decent shape, you, you can look at it and, and chalk that up as a win. So, ~um,~ for the listeners who wanna learn more, ~uh,~ about you and what you do with, ~uh,~ Uncivilized Rebirth, ~uh,~ where can they go to find out more information and, ~uh,~ and kinda get in touch with you?

[00:59:28] Paul Miller: So go to the Skool platform, Uncivilized Rebirth, search for that, and you’ll find the community that I’ve built, and you can join it. And then we can set up a, a Zoom call, or not a Zoom, whatever it may be, like video thing, and, and I’ll explain it to you in more detail. And on the page, it, like, tells a little bit about it, but not in great detail.

[00:59:55] But all I like to do is I like to do a call with somebody and explain it to them [01:00:00] what we’ll be working on. And there’s phases to it, lasts about three months. But the thing is, it gives you tools to create who you wanna be. And it’s not like stuff that is like try to make you cookie cutter or anything.

[01:00:16] It’s just internal tools to get your mind organized, and that is a powerful thing in and of itself

[01:00:24] Scott DeLuzio: Well, that is awesome, and I will have a link to that in the show notes for the listeners. ~Um,~ and I’ll, I’ll have a link to, ~uh,~ you know, any, ~uh,~ of the resources and, and things that we talked about. I know you, you talked about tapping and breathwork, and I, I’ve had some other episodes on, ~uh,~ the podcast about that as well.

[01:00:39] So if people are kinda curious what that’s all about before they, they dive into something like this, I, I can, ~uh,~ link to those as well just so that they, ~uh,~ you know, kinda have a, a baseline understanding of, of what it is. But, ~um,~ definitely, ~uh,~ you know, reach out, check out Uncivilized Rebirth and, ~uh,~ you know, start moving yourself in the right direction.

[01:00:55] It’s, it’s one small step that you can do today and, you know, things that will compound in [01:01:00] the future. It’ll, it’ll just kinda get you, ~uh,~ moving in the right direction. So, ~uh,~ Paul, thank you so much for, ~uh,~ coming on the show and sharing all your experiences and, ~uh,~ you know, the, the work that you’re doing now, ~uh,~ to, to help other folks out.

[01:01:11] I think it’s, ~uh,~ you know, a great, tool that, that is out there for folks to use if, if they’re, uh, in need of that type of, ~uh,~ guidance and direction. ~Um,~ and like I said, the, the, those links will be in the show notes and, ~uh, uh,~ thank you so much again for coming on the show, Paul.

[01:01:25] Paul Miller: Thank you for having me on

[01:01:26] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, you bet.

Losing the uniform before you are ready can feel like losing the person you spent years becoming. That pain can deepen when health problems, family separation, and the collapse of a business strip away other roles that once provided stability.

Paul Miller says he joined the military shortly before September 11, 2001, and served for 16 years as an infantryman and combat medic. His plan was to reach retirement, but a rare disease left him unable to walk and led to a medical discharge. He says he was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis the following year. Later losses involving his marriage, children, and business brought him to a point where he could no longer explain who he was without referring to an outside role.

Paul and Scott discuss why forced transition can be especially damaging to a veteran’s identity and why rebuilding requires an intentional picture of the person you want to become. Paul explains the ideas behind Uncivilized Rebirth, including his Character Trigger, Character Sheet, Mental Library, visualization, tapping, breathwork, and personal symbols.

The conversation also offers practical starting points for veterans going through a difficult season. Paul discusses mirror talk, imagining your life decades into the future, recognizing small household tasks as real victories, and replacing shame, blame, judgment, and guilt with enough grace to try again.

Timestamps:

595 – Lee Stuckey
===

[00:00:00] Scott DeLuzio: Coming home can leave a veteran carrying nightmares, feeling isolated, and feeling the pressure to look fine while everything underneath him is falling apart. Our guest today, Lee Stuckey, lived that reality after three Iraq deployments and an IED blast. At his lowest point, a phone call from his mother interrupted him as he was trying to take his own life.

He eventually found a path back through service. The outdoors music, spiritual health, accountability, and self-assessment, that path became a hero. A community, Lee says, has served more than 13,000 veterans and first responders and helped prevent as far as he knows, more than as 600 suicides over 16 years.

Lee shares how opening his farm to other veterans gave his pain a new direction. How Brazilian Juujitsu kept him connected to disciplined people and how a heroes four [00:01:00] pillars can help someone identify where life is breaking down. This episode will offer a look at rebuilding purpose, one decision and one relationship at a time.

Before we get into this episode, though, I want to take a minute to raise awareness for the Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation. This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, families, and civilians who are impacted by the global war on terrorism.

This memorial will be both a tribute to those who served and serve as a way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come. If you’d like to learn more or find out how you can support their mission, visit GWOT memorial foundation.org. Now, let’s get into today’s episode.

[00:01:58] Scott DeLuzio: Hey Lee, welcome to the [00:02:00] show. Really glad to have you here.

[00:02:01] Lee Stuckey: Yeah, I’m so super excited to be on here, Scott. I appreciate the invitation.

[00:02:05] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, you bet. ~Um,~ before we jump into the conversation, for the listeners who are, uh, maybe meeting you for the first time and not familiar with who you are, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

[00:02:14] Lee Stuckey: Yeah, so, so the condensed version is, uh, military school introduced me to the Marine Corps as a young wayward child. And, you know, mischievous, I tell everybody, mischievous, not malicious. I didn’t go outta my way to be like evil or, or create bad things. I was always the class clown, you know, just like to, to get in the middle of stuff.

~Uh,~ the teachers probably didn’t appreciate me at all of the ones I was asked to leave. And then eventually ended up at a place called Marion Military Institute, and that’s where I met my first Marine, who was a Staff Sergeant Sutton. Now, uh, when, when I left there, he was gunny, but just, just, I remember looking back, going through a lot of stuff in my life and getting into a lot of things.

He carried himself in just a whole [00:03:00] different demeanor and a manner than everybody else around him. And he definitely stood out to me. And so fast forward to college, go to Auburn University, uh, make a zero really good at partying. Terrible at studying, uh, social butterfly with a bowl cut. I looked like Justin Bieber with the hair where you have to do this.

And just a pudgy fraternity boy as a Sigma new at Auburn and just wasn’t going anywhere and, and really, you know, spending my time doing things I shouldn’t have been doing and not living a healthy life. And I looked back and remembered Staff Sergeant and, and that Marine said, man, I gotta do it. And I remember my parents, when I told ’em my mom, I said, Hey, I’m, I’m going to Paris Island on Monday.

And she goes, oh, that’s wonderful honey. Do you have friends there at this island? And I was like, no, it’s Marine Corps Bootcamp. And she’s like, well, why would you do that? And they tried to convince me. To not go in the Marine Corps. And my dad even bribed me with a new truck, a four wheeler a [00:04:00] boat, said, dad, I’ll, I’ll still be a kid that’s lost and have no direction with a new boat.

And I’ll probably end up, you know, wrecking the truck after that. And so dad, one day I’ll be okay and I’ll get my own truck and my own whatever. ~Uh,~ to this day I probably wouldn’t buy a boat. It’s better to have friends with boats, but, but, but definitely, you know, I needed a change. And so went, went to Paris Island, went off to bootcamp.

~Uh,~ I was a marine machine gunner, so oh 3 31 was my original military operational, uh, occupational specialty. And then I came back as a, a still freshman, you know, year two and did a lot better. And I made really good grades. I’d finished Paris Island, I’d finished School of Infantry. I had gone, you know, left for what was around seven months after I got back from School of Infantry.

Just things changed. I went from being a a frumpy fraternity boy who couldn’t run the initial mile and a half in like probably 14 minutes [00:05:00] and then magically Paris Island had me down to around 17, 17 30 for three miles. I remember walking past my mom at Paris Island when we graduated and my parents kept walking and I had to stop ’em and you can’t tell.

‘ cause since I put on some weight, but I was super skinny. I was about 150 pounds and it just really was a fresh start. It was a fresh start to really put a lot of that, those wayward ways behind me and have structure and new direction in my life and really the a plan to get to that next step. So starting every day with a routine and having a plan to get through that day.

And that’s where I really saw that huge 180 in my life. And if it wasn’t for a few incidents in high school, that led me to going to military school. I would’ve never joined the Marine Corps and I would still be wavered and lost and definitely wouldn’t be anywhere near where I am today. So you look at, you look at that as kind of like, that was my fa one of [00:06:00] my failures in life.

And if I just held on to, I made a huge mistake, but I knew I had to learn from that mistake and I had to get past it. And I’m glad I did.

[00:06:11] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And so many, uh, success stories start off in a way where you have some sort of, uh, some sort of, uh, failure if you will. You know, like, it, it’s not, I I don’t wanna say it’s a failure necessarily, because you know, you, you, it’s part of life. You, you try things, they don’t work out for you, and, and you, you adapt and you try different things and you keep moving on until you figure out, you know, how to, how to work your way through whatever it is that you’re, you’re going through.

And, uh, you know, in your case and many other people’s cases, I, I’ve talked to plenty of people who, uh, you know, we’re going down the wrong path in life and they decided, Hey, you know what? Let’s try the military. You know, one branch or another, they, they decided to go, uh, you know, in, into the military. Turn things around for ’em and, you know, they [00:07:00] get out and they are able to do so many, uh, things that they never would’ve imagined being able to do.

You know, I’ve, I’ve talked to people who, uh, graduated college, not only college, but got, you know, a master’s degree and they were failing outta high school and they’re barely, you know, getting by, uh, in, in high school and they joined the military and now they’re able to do all these other great things academically and then in their careers and all this other stuff.

They’re able to do so many things and, you know, so many of us have. Gone through the military and it’s a, you know, a shared experience that’s like, okay, well yeah, everybody, you know, who was in the military, we’ve all done these, these similar things, bootcamp, and, you know, other things like that. But, um, you know, it, it really is transformative to a lot of people and it, it allows them to, uh, see the potential within themselves.

Like, I, I, I was just kind of wasting my life away doing all this other crap. ~Uh,~ now I can go and, uh, do all these great things and, you know, nothing’s really holding me back [00:08:00] anymore. And it,

[00:08:00] Lee Stuckey: you remember the, the yearbooks had, you know, class clown, all those little sections. If there was one, I would’ve probably had most likely to be in a penitentiary, you know? But there’s no way, like in high school, I don’t even remember my GPA, but it was probably like a two, two or a two three. And then after joining the Marine Corps and ultimately getting a commission and going on to continued education in the military, like you’re talking about, I was able to get two master’s degrees.

So not only did I get an undergrad from Auburn University, which I love Auburn, it was such an awesome school, I was able to get an undergrad from Auburn University and then go on to get two master’s degrees. And have four point ohs in both of those master’s degrees programs. And that’s just a testament to that structure that the military provided.

And you know about failing, looking back on that, I, I failed and I fail and I fail, and I, I, I probably have a lot, a lot more failures and [00:09:00] success by far. But you look back at that and as long as you’re failing fast, it just means you’re learning. And I’ve learned a lot because I failed so much. And the only times I really, really have had success is when I bring in a group of awesome people that want to help us get through a mission and a program together and build something together.

That’s when we’ve had success. It’s never been I did this or I achieve this, or look what I did. The only thing I have ever done is failed miserably doing things by myself. So, you know, for anybody listening, if you can put that, I aside, I spoke at, or I was at a entrepreneurial class at UAB last week and everyone stood up and did their introductions.

There was 24 people in the cohort. I am the founder, I did this, I did this, I did this. I’m teaching a leadership part of it in a few weeks. And that was the thing, like if you just stick to I, I, I, it’ll never be, [00:10:00] we

[00:10:00] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And. There’s a saying, and I, I forget exactly where the saying comes from. I’ve heard it before, and I, I might butcher it a little bit here, but it’s, uh, if you wanna go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, uh, go together, you know, you know, and so I think that’s kind of to the point that you’re, you’re talking about here.

Yeah, you can go fast and you can break things and you can, you can do things on your own and, you know, make a lot of mistakes and do all the, the things on your own. But, um, when you want to go far, you want to get the, get things done, go together, get the people that are the, you know, more of an expert in certain things than you are.

You know, if it’s a business, maybe, you know, I’m, I’m not maybe the right, the best, uh, marketing guy. So let me get somebody in, in marketing that, that can help me out with that stuff. And, and, you know, sales or finance or whatever the things are that you, you need help with, um, bring those people together and. Clear your mind for the things that you’re able to do, and, and [00:11:00] then you can go, uh, a whole lot farther with those people along for the ride. And I, I think that’s, that’s kind of the, the point you’re trying to make there, right?

[00:11:07] Lee Stuckey: absolutely. And balance out those weaknesses. You know, we all have our gifts that I believe God’s given me, so I know them and like you, I I, I don’t know if you’re good at math, but if you start seeing me add up anything, you better pray. You better pull a calculator out. But, you know, we, we have those people that are good at finance, that are good at marketing, you know, that are good at team building, and so know each other’s strengths, know each other’s weaknesses, and be able to overlap the cover down.

[00:11:31] Scott DeLuzio: You know, I, I’ve joked with my wife before, I, I said if, uh, if we’re ever in a situation where we’re needing to do mental math and we’re sitting there, you know, calculating the numbers in our head and all that kinda stuff, and, uh, just know that I’m pretending,

[00:11:45] Lee Stuckey: Yeah, there, there’s not even a process in my brain that does

[00:11:49] Scott DeLuzio: It’s right now I’m thinking about what, what, what do, what do I wanna have for dinner or, or something. I’m, I’m just

[00:11:54] Lee Stuckey: I’m the same way. I do not like it.

[00:11:56] Scott DeLuzio: ~Uh,~ but, um, so let’s, let’s kind of move on, uh, you [00:12:00] know, a little bit. ~Um,~ so you, uh, you know, your time in the Marine Corps obviously, uh, was very, uh, productive for you.

You, you kind of turn things around in, in your own life. ~Um,~ but you had some, uh, some, um, ne maybe negative experiences in the Marine Corps as well. ~Uh,~ you know, going, uh, you know, deployments to Iraq, some IED situations and the kind of things that, uh, that maybe are not really on the, uh, the recruiting posters, uh, if, if you will, right?

[00:12:28] Lee Stuckey: Yeah.

[00:12:29] Scott DeLuzio: ~Um,~

[00:12:29] Lee Stuckey: you, you look at deployments though, and that’s your Friday night lights, and so we spend a lot of time in the Marine Corps or the military if you’re in a different branch and you get to practice all the way to Thursday. But you never get that opportunity to play Friday night lights for football analogy.

And so when I was, when I got commissioned and really in the 2003, right after the invasion, we went in with a, um, reserve unit. And then in 2007 I deployed with, uh, as an officer for my first, uh, deployment as an officer and then went [00:13:00] back in 2009. ~Um,~ and, and those deployments, that was your opportunity to play that Friday Night Lights.

And so the training that you focused on, all the way up to that point when things happened, it was second nature when things happened, you were so programmed and ready to respond. And we had such a great team and I was always so blessed to have really good leadership on those deployments, especially the 2007, which went from, um, January of 2007 to February of 2008.

So I was there for 13 months and then we had another one in 2009. And I was just so blessed to have really good commanders. I had Anna Reeves and First Sergeant Putnam. Who were just really, really good leaders and wanted to help us grow as lieutenants and, and staff and cos and they let us make mistakes and learn from ’em, and they let us build our team.

And so when, when, when I was blessed to take this team over in that invasion, we trained a lot. Before we got on that deployment, [00:14:00] we tried to cross train as much as we could. The machine gunner were doing com classes, casualty evacuation courses, my motor transport people were doing machine gun classes.

And so we tried to make as much as we could, an interchangeable unit to where all of the Marines could hop into a machine gun turn if, if we needed ’em there. They all knew how to use the radios. And so I was very blessed with such a phenomenal unit. A great company commander. A great company. First sergeant, my staff, NCO, uh, staff Sergeant Williams.

Retired as a first sergeant. We’re still friends to this day. I talked to him last week and just really, really solid group of marine. So that whole deployment, even though I got blown up during that deployment, it was awesome because everyone knew their job and everyone was so good at it that I knew regardless of what happened, we were gonna get through it.

And we were so fortunate to not lose any Marines. We had some Marines leave of the Purple Heart and were wounded, but we didn’t lose any Marines. So very blessed. And I remember [00:15:00] we had machine gun ranges every month and the Marines were like, sir, like why are we doing machine gun ranges in practice?

We’re already in combat. I was like, more of a reason to do more ranges. And so we would do these ranges and that was our opportunity to assess where they were that month and really look at, has something changed in their mind? Are they, are they back home mentally and are they not ready to shoot that machine gun?

Because out of my 13 gun trucks, I have 13 machine gunner that are behind this machine gun. I want my top 13 out of the company in that position. Because we had everybody for the majority, they could all drive a truck, they could all drive the mrap, they could all drive, you know, they could all get in the turret.

I could move them around based on that. And whoever shot the best got in that turret. And so we had our top 13 gunners and that was a coveted position to be a machine gunner on a security convoy. So we were just so blessed to, to really have some phenomenal marines. [00:16:00] They got it. And for a 13 month deployment, you really gotta keep people engaged.

’cause complacency traditionally kicks in. I think some studies say 90 days, you know, at best you’re gonna do six months. But that’s a stretch. I’m thinking 90 is probably the max. So to keep them engaged for 13 months to where every time you leave the wire, there’s a possibility you could lose your life or your buddies could lose their life.

I really, I, I’m confident that I can say our leadership did a great job keeping them. On task and making sure they were mission oriented to protect the people, the left and right of them.

[00:16:35] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and it’s great that you’re able to cross train everybody to be able to step into any roles because, you know, God forbid something did happen to somebody, you know, one of your machine gunner for example, gets, gets injured or you know, they, they’re not able to do their job. Somebody else can hop up in there and take over the machine gun and somebody else can, can be working on them, you know, from a medical standpoint, you know, whether they need a tourniquet [00:17:00] or some bandages or whatever it is that they need, you know, somebody else can, can handle that side of things as well.

So you don’t necessarily have to wait for your medic or corpsman in, in this case to, to come out and, and help, uh, with that type of thing. ’cause you, everybody is kind of cross-trained and, you know, while nobody may be. The, the top expert in that one particular field, they still can, can do things until you can, you can get people to, uh, to help out with that, that situation.

So, um, it, it’s one of the great things about, uh, the, the military is being able to do that type of thing. ~Um,~ you know, I, I served with a National Guard unit and we had folks who had their, uh, their civilian careers were, you know, they might’ve been a mechanic or a police officer or, you know, a, a wide variety of different careers and they brought all of that knowledge on their deployment.

And so when, you know, a vehicle needed some maintenance, we had our mechanic in our unit who, who kind of took a look and was able to go talk to the army mechanics to [00:18:00] say, Hey, this is what we need. And it was able to move things along a whole lot quicker. ~Um,~ and, and so just that. The more knowledge you can have, the better, you know, just ’cause your, your job is maybe a machine gunner doesn’t mean that you don’t need to know also some, maybe some medical, uh, training or, you know, to how to drive a vehicle or, you know, any of that other stuff.

~Um,~ it’s all important and, you know, having that cross training is, is, is super great. ~Um,~ you know, in information to have. So, um, now I gotta imagine with your, your deployment and, you know, getting blown up, that’s, that’s obviously not a, uh, an easy thing to deal with. ~Um,~ were, was there any, uh, issues after coming back home that you, you found yourself dealing with things like, you know, PTSD or anything like that after coming back?

[00:18:41] Lee Stuckey: Yeah, so, so I was blown up in 2007. It was November 16th, and I, I definitely don’t recommend parking on an improvised explosive device. It’s super bad for your health, but I, my tire actually initiated the IED, so it blew up underneath me and. We just, we got through it and [00:19:00] didn’t really stop and, and assess and takt time.

And so I think I was off, off the road for like 11 days or something like that, but it was short of the full extent and we just kept going because we had missions and I, we were, we were all focused on the mission and we were focused on getting it done. And actually looking back, my staff sergeant was blown up too.

I’m still trying to work to help him get a Purple Heart because he was blown up in there with me and I forgot he had his 10 day leave scheduled for like the next day or the day after that. And I forgotten about it. And I just, I was so off my own rocker and really don’t even remember any part of this. He spent that, that day at medical. And when we went through, uh, Baghdad International, went back to Camp Fallujah to go through medical assessments, he rushed through the process because he had, he wanted to go on leave.

[00:19:53] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:19:54] Lee Stuckey: And he, he had his whole family coming in and I believe it was a family reunion in Texas.

[00:20:00] His wife was coming in, everybody was coming in to a location and it was like the day after, if not two days at the most. And he was flying back to the States for his 10 day leave and his whole family was coming together. And so he didn’t tell them that he got knocked out and he didn’t tell them that he had lost consciousness as a machine gunner.

When I got blown up and my, my driver got knocked unconscious and years later he finally talked to me and was struggling really bad and is still struggling, and I’m trying to help him because he has a brain injury and he went through all this stuff, but he didn’t want to let his family down for everything they planned.

And so he just went through the medical process as quick as he could so he could get back to Texas and spend time with his family. You know, and obviously as he got older and he started having some issues with his head and some nightmares and sleeping issues and so forth. So now I’m working to get, you know, some witness a witness statement for him and, and help him get that.

But he’s [00:21:00] had some issues too. And just, you know, being transparent and, and telling people. And when I came back I just didn’t sleep

[00:21:08] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:09] Lee Stuckey: and I didn’t know if it was, you know, stress from the job. I was trained in mixed martial arts and I had a professional fight when I got back, which probably isn’t smart looking back after you get a brain injury, mixed martial arts.

But, you know, when you’re a Marine, uh, they’ve never said, Hey, y’all are really smart, right? So we, we ate crayons and that’s what people accuse us of. But, you know, I came back and I had this MMA fight scheduled. It was my first pro fight when I got back. And so I got back and I think I fought like the next month.

I wanna say it was March, but I, you know, it, it was pretty close after I get, I got back. So I was focused on doing that stuff, and I wasn’t focused on my health. I wasn’t focused on the fact that I was just staying up for three or four days, sometimes five or six, and then passing out from exhaustion. I’ve said this on a few podcasts, but the fortunate thing was I was fighting professionally, [00:22:00] and so I wasn’t gonna go out to the bars a lot.

I was really focused on staying in shape, but I just wasn’t sleeping. And uh, then as, as soon as I got hit for another deployment, I got ready to go to a Mosul rack with three one calve. And as soon as I got there, I started training for another fight. And so I was constantly chasing, staying in shape, taking care of Marines.

You know, I had a farm back in Alabama that we were running, and so I was running the farm back and forth. I had farm managers back here. My dad was helping me run it in my absence, but I had a fully operational farm back in Alabama. So I’m running the farm, I’m training for pro fights, and then I’m, you know, leading Marines and I was just exhausted.

And so I never sat back and said, okay, what’s going on with me? ~Um,~ the girl I was dating at the time, I was, I was sweating so bad. It was like I peed in the bed every night,

[00:22:55] Scott DeLuzio: Oh wow.

[00:22:56] Lee Stuckey: and it was so, it was drenched. I had to change the bed almost every day, and it [00:23:00] was embarrassing for the first part of it. But then I finally realized I wasn’t peeing.

I was just sweating really bad. And I talked to her about it and she was understanding, you know, she, she wasn’t obviously chastising me for it, but I was sweating so bad because when I would sleep, I was having such crazy dreams and my body was just living it, and I was just sweating profusely and having night tears.

And so when I would sleep, I’d have nightmares and I would sweat like crazy, and it was just a cycle. And so I went through that cycle over and over again from, you know, I went sleeping overseas. I got back in February. February of 2008, I got ready for a deployment deployed in oh nine. I came back from my deployment in 2009 and when I got back I had another fight.

And I had a fight as soon as I landed, you know, so as soon as I got back, I think it was like two weeks later, I had a fight and I, I told somebody else on another show. I just got a Facebook reminder, those little reminders, and it was a [00:24:00] picture of me like this, and my team was around me. ’cause I flew back in and I won this fight pretty quick. And so they’re all celebrating. And as they’re celebrating, I look back at that Facebook picture. I wanted to die in that picture. I wanted to die in that Facebook picture. And I was, I was going through the motions to do stuff and finish taskers. I had, and I was checking little boxes so I could go home and I could die.

And I just, I, I was so tired of being tired. I would wake up every day and put on this facade and I’m happy, Lee, if it, you know, whoever’s watching. If you know me, I’m always making people laugh or trying to make people laugh and trying to be, you know, the center of attention. Not in an obnoxious way, but just to make people feel better about themselves.

And regardless of what I’m ever going through, I never want to put the people around me through that same emotion. ’cause you know, 99% of [00:25:00] the time it’s not their fault. Like I’ve got exterior stuff going on. They didn’t cause it. So that’s how I was doing it. And I was a chameleon and I wasn’t telling anybody, I’m not sleeping.

I wasn’t telling anybody that I was having these crazy nightmares. The only person who knew was the girlfriend at my, at the time that I was having these night sweats and night terrors. And I wasn’t telling my commanders ’cause I want to get promoted. And so I didn’t want to tell them that I, I was starting to think about suicide.

So I came home, um, I wanted to see my parents. I wanted to see my mom and dad. I wanted to see the farm and spend a little time here. And then one Thursday night in August, I went to shoot myself. And as I was taking my life at my farm, my mom called my cell phone as I was pulling the trigger on a Glock with no external safety.

So if you know about a Glock pistol, they have no external safety. It’s a pretty easy squeeze. And she called at the split second. I was taking my life [00:26:00] and it was a Thursday night, around nine o’clock at night. And she calls me periodically, like once every two weeks, three weeks. Now she calls me a lot more, but there’s no, there’s no set mama time to where she checked in.

And I really believe as a Christian that God used her as a vessel.

[00:26:16] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:26:17] Lee Stuckey: God used her as a vessel to reach out and call me. ’cause he knew I was about to take my life. And he knew that we had more to do and that I had more to do on this earth as a vessel. And so. Just broke down crying, you know, answered the phone.

She knew something was up. She came out. She immediately, fortunately I was on recruiting duty at home and so she could drive about 30 minutes, uh, from the top Alabama to where I live in Shorter. And she came out and took me back to her house and, you know, just was like, what are you, what’s happening? She was terrified.

She didn’t know what was wrong with me. ’cause I was always this outwardly funny alpha male, you know, confident person. And I was just defeated. I was defeated. And I was at, you know, I, I was underneath the [00:27:00] hole. I had buried underneath it. And I finally told her, I just said, I just don’t wanna be here anymore.

And I just had so many emotional issues, um, just exhausted. And I’m, I’m weak, I’m a sissy. I don’t wanna tell anybody I’m struggling with all these things. I don’t wanna tell anybody I’m having any kind of issues, period. I finally realized after going through counseling and being transparent and opening up and talking to numerous counselors about this, that if you go through combat, you know, even tornado victims, rape victims, sexual assault, whatever it is, if you don’t have issues going through those types of trauma, you’re probably a sociopath.

And so the fact that I was going through these things, these, these abnormal events that aren’t supposed to happen to you, and I was having these normal reactions to an abnormal event in my life meant I was a normal person. And I had to figure out like, I’m never gonna be a hundred percent. Like after you go through things in [00:28:00] your life, you start taking percentages away from your life and you’re never gonna be a hundred percent again.

But how can I build it back up to where I’m gonna be? Okay? And so I started looking at how am I doing physically? And how am I doing financially? How am I doing emotionally and how am I doing spiritually and, and spiritually for me is most important. Being grounded in something bigger than yourself, even if you’re not Christian.

Being grounded in something bigger than yourself and believing in something bigger than you. And it’s not all about you and your life. And having that as a foundation to build everything else on. And that’s what turned into what is now America’s heroes, enjoying recreation outdoors. And that farm that I was managing was really just my farm.

So I could personally bow hunt. And I don’t even think I told any of my friends. I might’ve told one or two of ’em. They were really close to me, but I was very selfish with it. And I wouldn’t share it. I didn’t wanna share my blessings. That was my farm. Those were my [00:29:00] dear. And, and, and that was my opportunity to get away.

And when we started a hero and when I started sharing my blessings and I said, this is truly not mine. It’s God’s. I wanna share my blessing and help others and serve others with this. I had just enough money within the next couple months to buy the farm next to me, and I had just enough to get the next one.

And over the last 16 years, we’ve built programs in Tennessee. We’ve got a music record label, we’ve got all these programs. Once I said, this is not mine and for me this is yours. And for others, the blessings just started flowing. And, and that was really the eye-opening day. And these opportunities to see this is not about me. So, you know, as leaders, we don’t want it to be, I did this or I did that. We wanna recognize, even if I know that I was probably the driving force in pulling a team [00:30:00] together, I still wanna give the credit to my

team. A good leader is gonna praise his team and, and give them all the credit, and then take responsibility for any failures. I failed to be there. And with that, with stewardship, with property, with anything you’ve been given, the more you share it, the more I shared it. We started building these programs and since then we’ve been able to bring in thanks to a phenomenal community, thanks to my current board members, Dave Glassman, Lex McMahon, Jeff Tuggle.

I mean, they’re really my best friends. I talk to ’em all the time. I talk to ’em more than probably most friends talk to each other and they’re my board of directors. And then Aaron Peterson’s our, our quote unquote a hero house mother. But just having these super close people and then my wife is my best friend that really understands and gets it. The community that’s around this group and the hundreds of people that pour into us to make a hero successful is how we’ve been able to [00:31:00] help over 13,000 and how we’ve been able to stop over 600 suicides that we know about because it’s those people. Those couple hundred supporters that take that spiderweb effect in our message and spread it out and go to their social media and go to their churches and go to their workplace and go to their communities and go to their softball games and they hear, Hey, I’ve got a friend who’s a veteran going through a problem.

And they say, well, I’ve got a place so you can send them. And so really everybody taking their 1% of what our mission is and sharing it and growing it to a hundred percent for each of them is how we’ve grown. And I’m just so blessed to watch it grow for the right reasons.

[00:31:44] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and it’s, it’s great. It’s incredible just hearing you, you talking about this and you know, in my mind I’m, I’m thinking of the, the timeline and the, the transformation that’s taking place. Going from that basically that rock bottom moment where you, you didn’t want. [00:32:00] Anything else? You, you, you are done.

~Uh,~ and, and you, you wanted to essentially check out and, uh, you know, here, here you are now, years later, um, talking about all these people that you’re able to help, um, you know, serving something bigger than yourself, big, bigger than, uh, you know, just you and that one, one farm. And, uh, you’ve, you’ve expanded it to multiple regions and helping thousands of people.

~Um,~ you know, and, you know, hundreds of people are, are still here today because of the program that you put on. ~Um,~ and it’s, it’s just such a great transformation. And, you know, just thinking about, um, you know, what must have clicked and what must have registered, uh, at some point that, that basically. Opened you up to say, Hey, there, there is something more.

~Um,~ and, and I, I a hundred percent agree with what you said, that, uh, your, you know, your mom calling was not a mistake or, or an accident that it happened at the time that it did. There. There’s, there’s no coincidences when, when it comes to stuff like that, [00:33:00] as far as I’m concerned. And, and there’s definitely a, a reason that she called.

And there’s definitely, uh, uh, you know, more work to be done and, and you’re, you’re clearly doing it right now. And, um, you know, I I, I wanted to ask though about a hero and, uh, you know, what you guys do here. Like why, in, in your, your opinion, why you think that the outdoors and the, the hunting and fishing and those outdoor experiences, um, are able to help, you know, veterans and, and first responders in ways that more traditional set settings, you know, a therapy office or things like that sometimes can’t, uh, reach them.

[00:33:36] Lee Stuckey: So I consider it God’s creation and E, even if you’re not Christian, it’s so healing just to be out. A lot of people say, I’ve gotta get my vitamin D. And being out in the sun and just being outside and really enjoying seeing the birds, hearing the birds, watching the animals, seeing these beautiful farms that [00:34:00] we’re able to go to.

Being out with these boat owners on these beautiful sport fishing yachts, and spending time with them pouring into us and seeing the ocean, seeing the sunrise. You know, we do a morning walk and we do our beach trips, and I tell them, your cell phone stays in the house. You’re not bringing your cell phone.

And for an hour, they’re listening to the ocean and they’re, they’re watching the sunrise and they’re spending time thinking through, where did I want to be for me at 46? Where did I think I was gonna be? Where am I? Where do I want to go? How am I gonna get there? And so, taking that time, and it’s tough to be in a deer stand in Alabama. I know I talk a lot so people listening to this know me, they’re like, you talk in the deer stand the whole time. But being on your, being on your cell phone or watching stuff on your cell phone, the most of the time I missed animals ’cause I was texting [00:35:00] somebody. But disconnecting from screen time and completely disconnecting from that.

Reconnecting with what matters and using the outdoors as a place to reconnect with something bigger than yourself and just enjoying that time. And, you know, we have this, this new way of doing things in 2026 to where you have to respond instantaneously. You don’t,

[00:35:22] Scott DeLuzio: No,

[00:35:23] Lee Stuckey: nothing’s gonna happen. And if somebody gets mad, ’cause you didn’t text ’em back, you probably should talk to ’em about going to the doctor and talking to somebody about it.

You know, that’s their problem, that’s their problem, that’s not your problem. And I’m guilty of it

too. And so taking this time to schedule it in your day, every day and in your day, every day, starting up with no cell phone.

[00:35:45] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:35:46] Lee Stuckey: Start your day whispering with your creator before you enable and allow the world to yell at you.

So for me, I whisper with God every morning before I allow the world to yell at me. [00:36:00] So how profound is that? If you just set that phone away and don’t touch it and whisper with your creator before you enable and give the world access to scream at you. ’cause you’re the one that’s accepting that text message, that Facebook post, that email, that news on CNN or Fox News is gonna make you mad.

Whatever you watch, you’re the one that turns that on to consume it. So just don’t start with that. And you know, through a hero doing outdoor recreation and being outside, I encourage them while we’re doing those events, leave your cell phone in the lodge. You know the Gods will have ’em. So we’re safe and we can communicate to ’em.

Leave it. If you’re fishing, it’s not gonna work anyway. ’cause you lose signal after you get about three miles out. So it’s done. You can use it for taking videos and pictures, but just be in the moment and be present. Don’t be the person that goes to dinner and you’re on your cell phone the whole time you’re on dinner with a good friend that came in to see you.

Don’t even put your phone on the table [00:37:00] while you’re eating dinner. Put it in your pocket because you’ve immediately made that phone more important than your friendship.

[00:37:04] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:37:05] Lee Stuckey: So that’s really why, why I think the outdoors and being out deer hunting or out Turkey hunting or out fishing, or even we have orchards at a hero farm.

We have these beautiful orchards that are dedicated and greenfields that are dedicated to people who have been killed in action, wounded in action. Or if it says on their side, RIP, they took their own life and I don’t want their name to ever be forgotten. And so we speak about ’em. And when people sit in that shooting house, they learn about that veteran a first responder.

They learn about the sacrifice of that individual. And so being out there and being present in the moment and spending time with that person, you’re out there in the woods with.

[00:37:48] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. That it, it, it’s definitely something that has been lost because I know, you know, as, as kids growing up, there were no cell phones, there’s no internet, no [00:38:00] anything like that. And over time, you know, tho those things started to come along. And, um, you know, when we did first have internet, it was, it was dial up, it was slow.

It was, it wasn’t something that you were gonna be on all day long. It was something that you, you went on, you accomplished a task, whatever it was that you needed to do, and then you got off and, and you. You put it away in a sense, kind of like what you’re talking about with the, the phones. Keep them in the lodge while you’re going out and doing the thing that you need to do.

~Uh,~ and it was the same thing with, you know, video games and other things like that. It was, you didn’t carry the video game around in your pocket. You, you had a video game if you wanted to play it for 20 minutes, a half hour or whatever, then, then you did that. And then you went off and you did something else and you, you shut it off and you put it away.

It, it wasn’t something that was constantly around with you. And, and the, the cell phones these days, they just make it so easy for these distractions to be around us 24 7. ~Um,~ that it’s sort of changed our way of interacting with people where [00:39:00] even when we are face to face with people, sometimes people just don’t know how to.

Have a conversation outside of, you know, texting it to somebody or, you know, sending a message on social media or whatever. ~Um,~ and it, it probably, uh, creates a, a even greater feeling of, uh, you know, isolation and feeling like you’re all alone because you’re not really with someone when you’re talking to them through text messages or, uh, you know, Facebook messages or, or things like that.

Not to say that there’s anything wrong with communicating that way and you know, but when that’s your primary mode of communication, it probably causes some, some other issues. Right.

[00:39:39] Lee Stuckey: Well, now that you’re saying that, that makes sense. When people are in front of me and I talk too much, they’re trying to swipe left. They’re trying to get me away from him or just be quiet. So that makes sense. Now I’ll tell you, I had, I had a, uh, opportunity for about 10 seconds to get a, a video game when I was a kid.

I grew up on a quarter horse ranch and I asked my dad, [00:40:00] who’s 97, so he is about, you know, he was 51 when he had me. I said, dad, can I get an Atari? And he goes, what? What’s an Atari? I said, it’s a game. He goes, oh, I got a game. Go cut the grass and clean the horse stall. So that was my, that was my very brief opportunity to have a video game.

And I never had a video game, but I’m glad I didn’t. I grew up to work ethic and my dad was the one who would wake you up at five in the morning on Saturday and you would go pick up all the trash around our property. We called it the bar ditch, but the ditch or the, that was all the way around our farm and all the people that drive by it and throw garbage out.

We had to pick up garbage and we got to play for Saturday when all the trash was gone.

[00:40:44] Scott DeLuzio: Oh wow.

[00:40:45] Lee Stuckey: So that was a, you know, and if you think a piece of trash is under left my car. You didn’t hear my story.

[00:40:52] Scott DeLuzio: ~Um,~ so for the, the veteran who’s out there listening right now, uh, who’s stuck feeling like they’re stuck at [00:41:00] home, they’re avoiding people, they’re telling themselves maybe that they’re fine, but maybe somewhere in the back of their head they kind of know things are not quite right. ~Uh,~ what would you say is the first step towards reconnecting with their sense of purpose?

Maybe even, uh, sense of comradery with, with other folks and, and just getting out there.

[00:41:17] Lee Stuckey: Yeah, I mean, the first is getting healthy and getting healthy and, and finding something. You know, the great thing about the military is it gives you structure and you, you know, you know you have to do pt, physical training at 5:00 AM or five 30, and then you got chow and then you got this and you got that.

And then when you get out, you have no direction, you don’t have a schedule. So just really building a schedule. But not sitting in your house and not, and, and going and getting outta your house and finding a group to get involved with volunteering with a group. ~Uh,~ you know, if it’s not a hero, you know, a cancer society, a service dog program, but being a part of something that’s out in the community, and I, I’m, I’m worn out most of the time, [00:42:00] but I still structure it and I make myself go to, tonight.

I’ve got a Tuesday night men’s thing that starts at six 30 and I don’t dread going, but I’m worn out and I’m like, man, I’d really like to, to stay at the house and not go. But every time I leave those things I’m revitalized and reinvigorated and I’ve met some awesome people and so the connections and I’m like, always, I’m so glad I went because I met that person, or I heard that golden nugget in the speech that helped me move into Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday.

Then I’ve got another thing I’m going to Thursday for the entrepreneurial program at UAB, and it’s just one of those things. I’m driving two hours for an hour and a half, but I know that hour and a half I’m gonna spend time with people that are gonna help me grow. So being, looking back when I was going through alcohol pro problems, I would sit in my house in my cabin over here and my wife wasn’t here, and I would drink and stay in there for like [00:43:00] four or five days, sometimes six. And I would do nothing productive. I’d watch TV and drink and then I would finally leave and go outside. And I’m like, it’s a whole new world out here. And it is crazy looking back on that life because I never did anything productive and I never got anything accomplished. And I was super, super unhealthy.

And so I, I, I don’t even want to think because I’ll be depressed about how much time out of 46 years I’ve spent. Doing something similar, whether I was 13 and 14 and, and getting into trouble or whatever, that wasn’t focused on building myself to be healthier, but whatever I failed at, I’ve always learned, rebounded and come back 10 times better.

And so if you’re listening and going through financial issues, I sat down finally after facing it and wrote out a list of ways I was gonna get out [00:44:00] of it, of ways I was gonna, you know, get employed, focus on doing work, you know, get more jobs and get back into fixing my credit card situation or whatever I had going

on. I just kept myself busy. What didn’t help my financial situation is sitting in the house for six or seven days, drinking it got worse. And, and, and the same thing with my physical health. You know what, what changed is getting around a person and accountability partner. Working out and getting in better shape and doing jiujitsu classes, and really focusing on getting in Brazilian jiujitsu and focused on a team that was gonna keep me accountable.

And then the emotional piece too. So whatever I went through at that time, I would sit there and just be like, this is it. This is the worst thing I’ve ever gone through in my life. And it really wasn’t. I look back on it and regardless of what timeframe in my life, it’s so small in comparison to the blessings that came out of that trauma.[00:45:00]

So I had a job last year and it was by far the worst people I’ve ever worked with in my life, like hands down. And I went through 86 days working with these people, and it was absolutely just terrible, unethical, um, gaslighting had no integrity, super high turnover, disrespectful. The most disrespected I’ve ever been treated in my entire life.

I didn’t say a word because the Bible says, don’t argue with fools. And I just put in my earbuds and I did what they were telling me to do and I grinded through and I stopped and said, for 86 days, what am I supposed to learn? Why am I here? How do I never come back here and I’ll never go back there? And how do I keep my friends from coming back to this similar position? That was honestly one of, one of the darkest, small, short [00:46:00] periods in my life because I’d retired and I’m a retired marine officer and I’d gone through a lot of chaos. I fought professionally and I, I’d done a lot of different things and I never thought I would come out as a retired marine officer and be treated with that much disrespect and be treated that terrible.

And, but I stopped and I said, man, I wanna build something out of this. If I hadn’t gone through that 86 day period, I would’ve not built legacy leadership. We would not be on this podcast. I would’ve not started. I’m almost finished with my book. I’m on final edits and I’m finishing my first book, all the Blessings that came out of that 86 day, I’m gonna call it a PhD in bad leadership.

I mean, seriously, that 86 days, that that three month period was a PhD on how not to run a company, how not to treat your employees and, and how not to be a leader. And so I learned from that and I’m finishing a book on it and I’m talking to [00:47:00] people about it. And I want to go to corporate America and really stress how important it’s to be a servant leader.

And so I, I took that whole thing, not a wha wha poor me thing. How can I grow from this and how can I build it to help others get through it? And that’s what it’s about.

[00:47:17] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And I, I think that the last piece is the, uh, probably the most important piece, obviously helping yourself to, to learn, you know, obviously what not to do, but being able to then take that and help others to learn what to do, what not to do, that type of thing. Because again, that’s serving something bigger than yourself.

That’s not just, let me just take all this information and hoard it for myself because I, I wanna, you know, be the best of, you know, best type of leader myself, but somebody else might be able to benefit too. So let’s share that knowledge. Let’s help other, other folks out. And, you know, as you, as you go and do that, that that ripple effect [00:48:00] will, will reach out and touch other people who then will touch other people and it’ll, it’ll continue down the line.

And, and so I, I think that that, uh, kind of mindset that you have there is, is pretty great.

[00:48:11] Lee Stuckey: Being super cautious though, and sorry for cutting you off, but being super cautious. About not allowing an environment to change you

[00:48:19] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:48:20] Lee Stuckey: a, about going into that environment because I watched a person go from being, you know, this Christian self-proclaimed all this stuff. And, and within a couple months he was a part of that, uh, of that team.

And I watched him transition pretty quickly to adapt to that environment.

[00:48:39] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:48:39] Lee Stuckey: And so being careful and cautious when you get in situations like that, when you go into environments, if it is a really toxic and bad environment, you don’t need to stay in it. You know, you’re, you’re probably not gonna change it, so you need to figure it out pretty quick.

But don’t compromise your own integrity. Don’t compromise your own self-worth, don’t compromise your ethics and morals, [00:49:00] and don’t change your belief system to merely fit in to a bad environment. I immediately saw it for what it was. It was like, woo, I gotta put on my spiritual armor and get through this.

But at no point was I gonna compromise who I am at 46 years old to fit into any situation. And so just being really cautious to not get in there, even though there’s a lot of lowering and really cool aspects of where this place was, I wasn’t gonna give into that and change who I was as Lee Stuckey and who I wanted to be.

[00:49:33] Scott DeLuzio: Right. No. And that, that’s, that’s a great point too. ~Um,~ you know, yes, you, you’re, you can’t always, uh, control the, the cards that you’re dealt, but you can control how you react to them and, and how, how you play the hand, uh, if you will. ~Um,~ and you know, it, you don’t wanna, uh, compromise yourself and your, your integrity and your morals and values and, and things like that.

Just because you got dealt the bad hand with the, [00:50:00] whether it’s the people that you’re working with or. Whatever people that are in your life in general, um, you don’t want that to, uh, be controlling kind of the outcome there. ~Um,~ I wanna, uh, switch gears just slightly here. ~Um,~ you, you talked about, uh, a hero and you talked about the music piece of it too.

We talked a lot about the outdoors and, and that type of thing. ~Um,~ where did the, where does that, uh, kind of fit in to the whole, uh, program and how, how do you find that music and creative expression can, can help veterans? ~Uh,~ you know, is it kind of complimentary to some of the outdoor piece or is it, uh, you know, kind of a, a separate program?

[00:50:35] Lee Stuckey: Now it’s, it’s so complimentary and it started with Bob Regan operation song. And so Rusty Tabor was, is one of our musicians with music for a hero, and really helped us see the power of it. You know, anybody listening knows that music has an important part of your life. You’ve got your, your breakup song, your together song, your your football song, your workout song.

Like we all have our songs that connect [00:51:00] and, and, you know, remind us of something. And so bringing music into it as a healing aspect was enormous. And so thank, I just wanna thank Bob Regan and Operation Song for inspiring us. Rusty Tabor to starting Music for a Hero with our program, which UL ultimately turned into a Hero Records, which is a record label for veterans and first responders.

And so when, when you had, our four pillars are physical, financial, emotional, and spiritual and the emotional piece, that’s where I see the music is, is really huge in that. And watching someone come in with so much trauma, they don’t wanna share it, they don’t wanna talk about it, it’s, you know, they keep it compartmentalized in a figurative tote in the back of their closet.

They don’t want it to pop open, but it rears its ugly head and that tote opens up when they’re drinking or whatever else. We wanna bring that out and [00:52:00] they’re, if they’re willing, link them up with our musicians and they write their trauma into their story and they take something that’s so traumatic.

That keeps them up at night, makes them drink alcohol and they can’t get past. And it turns into their story of resiliency. And instead of hiding it back in that figurative tote in the back of their closet where they don’t wanna look at it, I want ’em to put it at their coffee maker or at their front door.

And before they leave their house every day, I want them to be reminded of how resilient they are and what they’ve been able to overcome in their life because of their community, because of not being defeated by those things that bothered them back in 2007, 2010, 2015, or whenever that trauma happened.

And so it’s different. It’s not white coat to warrior, which is doctor to warrior. It’s a musician who really cares about him and loves ’em and wants to help ’em get through [00:53:00] this. And they write a three minute work tape, which is their comeback song, and it’s awesome to watch it. And you take a group of people. Who are very reserved and not wanting to share. And by the end of it, they play this song in front of the entire group on Saturday night. And we do test testimonials and it’s awesome to see this family be built within a three day period. And so we’ve got Rusty Tabor that I mentioned, who’s a Grammy nominated singer songwriter, uh, Mike Carotta, who I think he’s probably got five or six albums.

He might have more, but phenomenal singer songwriter who’s been writing for 30 something years. ~Um,~ we’ve got, uh, he’s, he was our original director for a Hero Records and now Jeff Sylvie took over as our director for Hero Records, who writes, he’s written for George Strait, uh, three drinks behind. He’s been writing for George for the last 20 something years.

Phenomenal. ~Uh,~ Casey Fall, she just had a new album come out on a Hero Records Friday, so her first album came out [00:54:00] and she’s got a fabulous, I think it’s seven songs on that album. Aaron Justice just wrote a song for a strength of a survivor. Aaron Justice is just another one. ~Uh,~ Jake Carrolson, Corey Rose, uh, Kevin Adair was one of the original guys that helped us build it.

And you’ve got, I mean, three to 400 years of songwriting experience all in one room that are helping these veterans and first responders build a song that’s gonna help them heal. It’s just been awesome. It’s my favorite part. I’ve been writing personally for over 20 years, and I tell my musicians, I write a poem until you give it a melody and then it comes, it becomes a song.

[00:54:40] Scott DeLuzio: Sure, sure. Yeah.

[00:54:41] Lee Stuckey: just so therapeutic.

[00:54:43] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And I. Talk to other folks who have used other, uh, creative art forms. ~Uh,~ not necessarily music, but things like, you know, uh, sculpting or painting or, you know, things along those lines where they just couldn’t talk about whatever their, [00:55:00] their trauma was. ~Uh,~ it, it was hard for them to put it into words, but they were able to put it on a canvas, put it on a, uh, uh, you know, mold the clay, uh, or whatever it was that they were doing.

And when they’re showing their, their artwork at, you know, in an exhibit or, or something, uh, people start talking about it and they, they feel like, now I can talk about it. ’cause I’m, I’m not talking about the, the thing that happened. I’m talking about this thing that’s in front of us, this thing that I created and, and why I created what was going on in my head while I was thinking about.

You know, shaping it the way I shaped it and painting it the way I painted it, and I’m sure the music is very similar to that, where there’s, uh, yes, sure, you’re, you’re putting it into words, but you’re, you’re thinking about it in, in the moment and you’re, you’re the, the song is coming out the way it, it came out because of the experiences that you had.

And, and it’s a way that you can get it out there without necessarily having to sit down and, and talk about it the way you might in a therapy session. ~Uh,~ it, it’s a little more creative way of doing it. [00:56:00] It’s maybe a little more colorful way of doing it, and it, it allows folks, I, I think, uh, to be able to, uh, share things that they maybe otherwise wouldn’t have.

Felt comfortable with sharing. And I, you know, I think it’s a, a great way of, uh, expressing yourself when, when you have this type of, um, you know, uh, this type of environment where there’s plenty of people there to support you and, and help you through and, and cheer you on as, as you’re, you’re sharing this stuff so you’re not feeling like it’s a, such a scary environment to be able to do that, right?

[00:56:34] Lee Stuckey: If you look how it’s set up, it’s set up deliberately to listen, to understand. It’s impossible to write a song with these songwriters if they’re gonna listen to respond or listen to solve a problem. And so, unlike a lot of us, and I fall victim of this all the time with people, people will call me and say, Hey Lee, I got a problem.

Like, well, I’ve got a solution. And so they don’t, you know, a lot of times they don’t want a solution. They want you to listen and [00:57:00] understand and just help them through it, but not just immediately respond. And sometimes people just want you to listen, but for a songwriter, they have to listen to understand, to capture what you’re describing.

So it’s such a great way to go through a therapeutic moment and really get through that process.

[00:57:18] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. ~Um,~ jumping ahead here a little bit for, uh, veterans who feel maybe like their best days are behind them, you know, their, their glory days, where when they’re kicking in doors and, you know, doing all the the fun stuff that we we did in the military, um, how would you help them start thinking about the legacy that they can still build for their family, their community, uh, and, and like in your case, other fellow veterans?

[00:57:45] Lee Stuckey: I don’t want to be the high school football player wearing my high school letter jacket when I’m 50. And that’s really how I look at that. Like nobody wants to be that dude. So I don’t want that to be the only thing I [00:58:00] accomplished. So, hey, back in high school, I threw a 50 yard. Like I I got you, man.

That’s awesome. You know, and, and just continuing to pour into your community, continuing to be a part of something bigger than yourself and continuing to move forward. I was able to go see a good friend of mine now who I just met, but just really took on to pretty quick, who’s a retired Army colonel. And we spoke in this car ride going to ha uh, eat at this place called Hug Molly’s, which Jimmy Rains has out there in Abbeyfield and it’s just an awesome country restaurant.

And then the car ride, he was telling me in the military, he used to always preach, we gotta win the last a hundred yards. It’s not about the flight over to Vietnam or Iraq or wherever you’re going. It’s with the enemy. It’s winning the last a hundred yards. And so you’re constantly working to win the last a hundred yards in combat.

And he finally realized after losing his wife of 56 years and going through [00:59:00] 17 months of depression and doing exactly what I’m telling everybody not to do, and locking himself up in a house. Not leaving his home and not talking to anybody and not asking anybody for help and not being a part of the community.

At 83 years old, he spent 17 months locked up in his house because his wife of 56 years passed away and he finally realized he wasn’t listening to his own vice. He wasn’t listening to winning the last a hundred yards. And for him winning the last hundred yards was continuing to be a pillar in his community and preparing for heaven and preparing himself for eternal salvation.

And so winning the last hundred yards is different for everybody, but you have to be in the game and you have to be present, and you have to participate to be on the field.

[00:59:50] Scott DeLuzio: That’s

[00:59:50] Lee Stuckey: you can use that for any analogy, but really just looking at it and saying, is that all you wanted to do? And if this is a net, I use the Netflix a lot because that [01:00:00] resonates with a lot of people.

But if you just wanna stop at, you know, Iraq in 2009 was my last deployment for combat. If I just wanna stop at that and that’s my last hoorah, my Netflix show would be over

[01:00:12] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[01:00:13] Lee Stuckey: the season would be over. You know? Now I’m at season 46 and I look back on all those seasons in my life, whether it be season 26, 27, 28, there’s a lot of seasons in my life that were dramas. There’s a lot of seasons in my life that were pretty emotional. And then if you watched it, you’re like, man, Leroy’s not gonna survive this season. I think old Leroy’s gonna die, and you would not have thought my character was gonna make it. And if you watch glimpses of my Netflix series, but I’m on season 46 now and I’m thriving and I’m dedicated, and I have focus and we have a plan, and I have an awesome wife.

And if I’d have killed myself 16 years ago, I would’ve never met my wife who I met eight years ago. I got married later in life, [01:01:00] but it’s the best person I could have ever had as a wife. And it’s who I believe God was saving for me. And if I would’ve killed myself 16 years ago, I’d have never met her. We would’ve never built a hero to help all these people.

I wouldn’t have this amazing I organization with the board members and the music for a hero people and a hero records. And the farms extended. Like all these things wouldn’t have happened because I wouldn’t continue to win the last a hundred yards I would’ve given up. And so take a look at what season you’re in right now.

What genre are you in? Are you in a drama? Are you in a comedy? Are you in a romance? You get to pick your show, you get to pick your character, and you get to pick the person that shows up every day to be on that season. And so I recommend a little romance, a little comedy, something happy, but get out of that emotional dramatic phase.

You decide what version of you shows up every single day, whether something happened [01:02:00] yesterday that doesn’t carry into today unless I’ll allow it to. So just stop, take an audit, and literally, if you’re listening, veterans first responders are just people. Take an audit. Take a sheet of paper. How am I doing physically?

And write it out. Am I where I want to be health wise? Am I where I wanna be physically? Do I wanna get in better shape? Do I want to eat better? Replace the bad food with good food? How am I doing financially? Is my spending outta control? Where do I need to save? Do I have a trip coming up? Do I need to prepare for it financially?

And get yourself financially in check? How am I doing emotionally? How am I doing spiritually? And write out an honest assessment of those things and do an audit and have your wife do it. Have your husband do it. Have your kids do it. Know what you’re looking at, doing a self auto to your family, and then just don’t get stuck [01:03:00] in the drama Netflix show.

They don’t end well, you know? But again, we get to decide what that outcome is, and I wanna leave a great legacy to where people remember the things I did for others and not the things that Lee Stuckey accomplished. I don’t wanna remember any like metric at like, he did this and that. I don’t, you know, MMA was an opportunity for me to meet people and me to witness to him and me to spend time with a great group of people.

But Marine Corps was an opportunity for me to meet people and grow friendships. Everything I’ve done in life is an opportunity for me to meet more people and pour into them and have them pour into me so we could grow to be a great community.

[01:03:46] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And, uh, you know, if you’re at that point where you’re feeling stuck, feeling like you don’t know what that next season is going to have in store for you, uh, you know, like you said, you know, writing down, you [01:04:00] know, an honest assessment of where, where you’re you are is, is a good starting point. But also think of it as, uh, you know, a contract negotiation with, uh, with Netflix.

Like, how, how am I going to change what this next season’s going to look like? ~Uh,~ you know, do, do I want a, a bigger role in whatever this show is, is, is shaping out to be, and, and what do I want that role to look like? And so, you know, think of it maybe that way too, is, is that you’re, you’re. You know, auditioning for alar larger role in your own life.

Really, it’s, it’s, it’s the, uh, at the end of the day is what you’re, you’re looking for, but you’re, you have, uh, you have infinite opportunities out there and there, there’s so many things that you, you can do. It’s just a matter of what is it that you want to do. And, and, uh, you can’t do everything obviously, but you certainly can do something different than what you’re doing right now.

And if what you’re doing right now doesn’t feel like is, uh, suiting you, it’s not working for you, then try something new, try something different, and, and see where that takes you. ~Um,~ doesn’t mean that that has to [01:05:00] be the, the be all, end all that, that’s the only path that you can possibly take is you’ve made a decision one day that this is where I want to go.

You can always change that later on, but, um, you know, be honest with yourself and say, where, where do I think I can have the most impact? Where can I be the most happy? Where can I, you know. Whatever it is that you’re looking for, where can I find that? And, uh, you know, do, do what you need to do to, to get it done.

~Um,~

[01:05:25] Lee Stuckey: having accountability partners too. I, I’m an alcoholic and so my accountability partner is not an alcoholic. You know, if I know I have a weakness, the per, the people that, that I have accountability partners to keep me in check are people like Bill Boutwell, who I teach jujitsu at his gym at Montgomery Martial Arts, and I teach on Tuesday mornings, and I, you know, I, I go to Jiujitsu as much as I can.

Brazilian jiujitsu and going to training and staying in shape for 27 years now through Carlos Machata and, [01:06:00] and Machata Jiujitsu. That’s accountability. And there’s a different outcome when you lead training doing Brazilian jiujitsu on Friday night over leaving a bar. And so really having accountability partners and having a focus, you know, your environment and who you spend time with is who you become.

And so making sure my wife and my wife knows all my stuff. And so my wife is my accountability partner. My wife is my best friend. She’s absolutely my number one. And I put her before everybody. And so she is an accountability partner. She, I mean, she knows that I, I can’t do this, I can’t do that. I need to focus on this.

I give her our sche, like we do our schedules together. And so looking at it as a wife and husband, I’m the CEO as the husband, she’s the COO, she’s the chief operating officer. I do strategic planning and division for the family, and she’s the day-to-day operations person. She helps me manage our lives to make sure we’re in check physically, financially, [01:07:00] emotionally, and spiritually.

But having those roles and having those honest assessments with your spouse and your family and on Sundays sitting down with ’em, how are we doing? And coming up with a plan with your family. We give all these people we don’t know all this time on Facebook and all these opportunities to talk to us and people at work and people in the church.

Give your families time. Give my, I give my wife my calendar first. She fills her stuff up first of what we’re gonna do to be happy as a husband and a wife. She schedules the events we’re gonna do before anybody gets access to my calendar. And then just making sure you’re having those accountability partners keep you in check.

Somebody called me yesterday at nine 30 in the morning drunk. One of the warriors called me and said, sir, what do I do? I’m, I relapsed, I fell off the wagon. I’m drinking. I said, sober up and don’t repeat it tomorrow. And, and serious likes, Hey man, it happens. You know, we call ’em slips [01:08:00] in the alcoholic world, but sober up and what are you doing for the rest of the week?

And he goes, well, I don’t know. I was like, well, you’re a Jiujitsu practitioner. When’s your next juujitsu session? Now don’t go today.

[01:08:12] Scott DeLuzio: That would be bad.

[01:08:14] Lee Stuckey: don’t go today. You’re not gonna feel great. But, you know, put that on the calendar. And I told him, he knows I do Juujitsu. And I was like, listen man, I teach as much as I can and I schedule as many training sessions as I can.

And when I get busier in my life, I do more juujitsu. I don’t do less juujitsu. When my life gets busy and I have stressful meetings, I work out more, I run more, I eat healthier, and I do more juujitsu

[01:08:39] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[01:08:40] Lee Stuckey: because I have to keep my tank full. And there’s a great po um, a YouTube clip called Dead Leader Running, and it’s an eight minute clip.

It’s about eight minute and 30 seconds or something. Awesome, awesome YouTube video. And the guy talks about your tank being emptier or full, and he talks about this same [01:09:00] principle. If I know I’m gonna have a busy week, I have to do more jiujitsu. I have to do more time with my wife, I have to do more time with my dogs.

’cause those are the things that fill up my tank.

[01:09:10] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[01:09:11] Lee Stuckey: If your life is getting hectic and busy, you don’t do less of the things you love, that’s emotional suicide. If your life is busy and it’s gonna get stressful, you have to add in deliberately and intentionally. Add in the things that make you happier.

[01:09:30] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. ~Um,~ for the listeners who are out there, who would like to either find out more about, uh, a hero and, and your guys’ mission, what you guys do, whether they’re, you know, veterans needing the help themselves or family members trying to understand, you know, what’s available out there for their loved ones, uh, or supporters who want to get involved, either volunteering or donating, uh, donating, you know, money or time or whatever it is, uh, what’s the best ways to, uh, reach out and connect with a [01:10:00] hero and, and all the stuff that you guys are doing.

[01:10:02] Lee Stuckey: Yeah, awesome. So a hero usa.org. So A-H-E-R-O usa.org is our website. ~Uh,~ my actual email is a hero, Stuckey, S-T-U-C-K [email protected]. And then we have Lee Stuckey. Legacy is Instagram. I’m on LinkedIn as well as Lee Stuckey, and Facebook is Lee Stuckey. So, you know, feel free to reach out to me and if you’re a company.

You want us to come in and help you with servant leadership training? We’re starting to work with banks. We’ve worked with a natural gas company. We do leadership retreats. We have a lodge, we’ll come to you. But really taking a look at your company, your business, your leadership, and really teaching you how to maximize your employees to really, really fire on all cylinders and grow your company in a healthy manner.

And so that’s what I love doing, coming in and speaking to ’em, whether it’s a keynote, a leadership workshop, just an opportunity to [01:11:00] pour into your community, your company. And while we’re there, we’re looking at, uh, connecting them to veteran organizations and doing outreach within their community as well.

So I just love an opportunity to serve and would love a chance to help any of the businesses that are listening as well.

[01:11:14] Scott DeLuzio: Well, that’s awesome. And I will have a, uh, all those links in the show notes for the listeners so you guys can check it out there, uh, and, and check out a hero and, uh, all the other things here, uh, all the social media links and all that, uh, as well, right in the, the show notes. ~Um,~ Lee, I wanna, uh, first off, thank you for taking the time to come on the show, uh, being vulnerable, sharing your, your story, and, uh, and also all the, the great work that you’re doing with a hero and all the, the veterans and all the folks that you’ve been able to help along the way.

~Uh,~ it’s really, uh, you know, a great thing that you, you’re doing and I, I, I think, um, you know. A lot of us start off things like this where we’re thinking, okay, uh, I wanna be able to help just this one person. If I can help one person. I, I feel like I, I’ve had a success. I, I know I’ve, I said that to you earlier with, uh, um, [01:12:00] you know, this podcast.

That’s kind of how I, I felt when I started it. And then, uh, you know, all these years later, you, you look back and, and say, you know what? I, I know I’ve helped more than one person. So obviously mission success there. But, um, you know, I, I feel like you have had, uh, multiple, uh, successful missions along the way, and, and you, you’re, uh, continuing to do that.

So, uh, thank you for all the, the work that you’re doing to help out the, the veteran community and, and, uh, and for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.

[01:12:26] Lee Stuckey: Yeah, I’d like to just have everybody look up a couple songs too. So, strength of A Survivor is by Aaron Justice. ~Um,~ Casey Fall just had folded wings, which is another really good one about the things she faced. And then Rusty Tabor has my legacy, which was written by Jeff Sylvie, Mike Carotta, and Rusty Tabor.

And the My Legacy one stands out in this conversation the most as far as the beginning and the end. So it’s my legacy, the beginning and the end on the tombstone. So those years is not his legacy, it’s the [01:13:00] dash in the middle. So as you listen to that song, that song’s about a Marine that was dying of brain cancer and has passed away already.

He had Purple Heart. I think he had two, but I know he had at least one got brain cancer from the burn pits. And his legacy was his family and his legacy was spending time with them. And we were able to take them on their last deep sea fishing trip together thanks to Matt McDonald and the Breathe Easy and Patrick Ivy and we videoed their last fishing trip on this beautiful 72 foot Viking and let them spend their last moments together, deep sea fishing with their father before he passed away a couple months later.

And his legacy, that dash in the middle was his family. And so if you’re listening, you still have an opportunity to create and finish that legacy strong. So regardless of what you did yesterday or last year, whenever, it only matters if you let it define the rest of you. So making that that dash in the middle of your eventual tombstone worth something and leave a positive [01:14:00] legacy.

[01:14:00] Scott DeLuzio: Absolutely. And that’s a, a great way I think to end it. ~Um,~ Lee, thanks again for coming on the show. Really do appreciate it. You bet.

A phone call from Lee Stuckey’s mother came at the split second he was trying to take his life. That interruption became part of a longer return from three Iraq deployments, an IED blast, night terrors, isolation, and the pressure to keep presenting himself as fine.

Lee explains how opening his farm to other veterans grew into America’s Heroes Enjoying Recreation Outdoors, or AHERO. He says the organization has served over 13,000 veterans and first responders and helped prevent over 600 suicides during 16 years of programs. The work includes outdoor recreation, Music for a Hero, A Hero Records, and support centered on physical, financial, emotional, and spiritual health.

The conversation also covers the discipline Lee found through Brazilian jiu-jitsu and MMA, the four-column self-audit he recommends for people who feel stuck, and the servant leadership lessons he carried into civilian life. Veterans who feel disconnected, overwhelmed, or unsure of their next mission will hear practical ways to assess where they are, reconnect with healthy people, and begin moving forward.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Scott DeLuzio: Combat does not stay neatly contained in the past. It can follow a veteran into work, marriage, parenthood, and the moments when the mind has nowhere left to hide. The hope that many veterans have is to reach a point where those experiences can be faced without letting them dictate every part of life.

[00:00:19] Our guest today, Justin Morseth, shares how the Iraq invasion, moral injury, traumatic brain injury, and years of suppressing what happened overseas shaped his return home. He explains how treatment, prolonged exposure therapy, and finally allowing himself to be vulnerable helped him find a healthier version of himself.

[00:00:41] He also shares in this episode the mission behind Pets Healing Vets, where veterans and shelter animals are matched and supported together. This conversation offers a direct look at combat, invisible wounds, and the difficult work of accepting help before the damage spreads further. [00:01:00] Before we get into this episode, though, I wanna take a moment to raise awareness for something I feel is deeply important to our community, the Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation.

[00:01:10] This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington, D.C. to honor the service members, families, and civilians who are impacted by the global war on terrorism. This memorial will be both a tribute to those who served and a way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come.

[00:01:27] If you’d like to learn more or find out how you can support their mission, visit GWOTmemorialfoundation.org. Now, let’s get into today’s episode.

[00:01:35]

[00:01:48] Scott DeLuzio: Hey, Justin, welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here

[00:01:51] Justin Morseth: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it

[00:01:54] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, no, and I appreciate you being here as well. ~Um, uh,~ for the listeners maybe who aren’t familiar with you and who you are, could you share a little bit [00:02:00] about, ~uh,~ who you are and, and, ~uh,~ your, a little bit about your background, ~uh,~ before we get started here, just to kinda set the stage for who we’re talking with?

[00:02:06] Justin Morseth: Yeah, sure. ~Um,~ I am Justin Morseth. I, ~uh,~ am a former United States Army infantry officer, more notably known as, ~um,~ I was a rifle platoon leader with the 3rd Infantry Division during the initial ground invasion of Iraq. to joining the Army, I, ~uh,~ attended Denison University in Ohio, ~um,~ before I commissioned, and I grew up in Ohio. ~Um,~ currently I live in Bloomington, Indiana, where I do a lot of public speaking with the university about combat trauma and TBI and PTSD and moral injury and all things like that. And I’ve been doing that now for about six to eight years, and it’s been really, ~uh,~ rewarding for me, both, ~uh,~ for myself and for the students or law enforcement and all kinds of people that I usually, ~um,~ speak with

[00:02:50] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and you know, it, so you’ve been doing that for six to eight years. I’ve been doing this show for about seven years. I’m, I’m surprised it took this long for us to cross paths and, and, and get together on this. [00:03:00] But, ~uh, um,~ you know, I’m, I’m glad we’re here, and I’m glad we’re, we’re able to, ~uh,~ sit down and have a conversation here.

[00:03:03] ~But, um, so you talked a little bit about your, your time as a, a rifle platoon leader, um, in that, you know, that initial push into Iraq. Um, tell us a little bit about that and, and kinda when you look back on those, uh, you know, initial first days of, of combat, you know, what, what do you think people need to understand about things like the, the pace of, uh, activities, the pressure that’s on someone like yourself, a leader in a leadership position, um, and, and everybody involved as well, you know?~

[00:03:03] Justin Morseth: ~Yeah. The, the evasion was unique in and of itself. Um The invasion was very, well, essentially predictably unpredictable. Uh, it was, I mean, I don’t think we’ve done a full land invasion, full-scale land invasion since World War II. I could be wrong. I’m not 100% sure. Um, it was extraordinarily difficult, especially the first week, ’cause we had to go through a, uh…~

[00:03:03] ~We didn’t see a ton of combat in the very beginning until, uh… Can we start that over~

[00:03:03] Scott DeLuzio: ~Yeah, sure. N- yeah, no worries. Yeah, go ahead.~

[00:03:03] Justin Morseth: ~ask that question one more time?~

[00:03:03] Scott DeLuzio: ~Yeah, sure. Yeah, I’ll, I’ll just kinda pick it up from there, and then, then we’ll, uh, then I’ll let you answer that question. So, um, yeah, so,~ so you served as a rifle platoon leader. You talked about that kind of in the, the intro here. But, ~um,~ during that initial push into Iraq, ~um,~ tell us about, you know, when you look back on those, those first days of, of combat and the first days of, you know, that initial push, what do you think people need to understand about things like the, the pace of activities that you’re going through, the pressure on someone like yourself, ~uh,~ in a leadership, ~uh,~ position, and, and everybody who was involved, really?

[00:03:27] There’s a lot of pressure, ~uh,~ you know, the whole world’s looking at, at you guys, and, you know, no pressure, but, you know, don’t, don’t screw it up either, right?

[00:03:34] Justin Morseth: Yeah, the, the invasion was, it was like I said before, it was unique in and of itself. You know, we have not invaded a country before, and I think what was so difficult was every foot forward was new terrain. You know, we knew what the enemy looked like, but we had yet to see the enemy. had all these plans that we had been working on for the past six to eight months, you know, culminating at the National Training Center at Fort Irwin. [00:04:00] We had rehearsed these objectives, when it came down to it, when we invaded at 05 in the morning on March 20th, kind of anticipating seeing all these enemy tanks, infantry, conventional forces. But it really wasn’t like that in the beginning. ~Um,~ we had the initial push, and we saw moderate, light to moderate enemy contact. But something happened to us, the entire, all the coalition forces, on about March 24th or March 23rd, and that was we saying we had to went through– Iraq had the largest sandstorm in over 30 years, where this is where it, it got really dicey for us before we even saw the major combat operations. We were stuck in place for about six to seven days, because the sandstorm was so thick. ~Uh,~ at one point had to ration down to one to two MREs a day. [00:05:00] When I talk about predictable/unpredictable, we ran out of water, where we had to go pump water from the Euphrates River because we used the, the western side of the Euphrates River as our approach, as our tactical approach. But, ~uh,~ it was… And then we got hit. Our chemical alarms went off during that period of time, so we were already wearing chemical suits. So we were expecting, ~uh,~ weapons of mass destruction. Saddam Hussein was gonna– So everyone already invaded with MOPP 2, where, you know, your pants and coat, so it was hot.

[00:05:31] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:05:33] Justin Morseth: there was one particular day during that sandstorm where our chemical alarms went off, everyone had to go to MOPP 4, you know, pro mask, gloves, boots, and that happened two times in one day, and they were a period of four to six hours a piece.

[00:05:47] And you’re thinking, we’ve seen combat, but we have not seen Saddam’s Republican Guards, his special Republican Guards, his elite forces. We have only seen his conventional regular army and what we call [00:06:00] Fedayeen forces, which are pro-Sunni, pro-Saddam rebel fighters. And that’s when morale got kind of tough.

[00:06:06] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm

[00:06:07] Justin Morseth: It, it, and there’s– combat obviously comes with a certain level of hypervigilance. Everyone has to be paying attention at all times. Communication is the most important weapon on the battlefield. And, ~um,~ we managed to get through that, and finally, the sandstorm finally in the evening, right around the evening of April 1st. So we had been stuck at this objective called Objective Raiders, and all of a sudden we got the marching order at 02 in the morning on April 2nd to attack through the Karbala Gap, which is our first major combat operations, which was the narrow 20-mile corridor in between the city of Karbala and there was a lake called Lake Ramaza, and we had to assault through there.

[00:06:55] However, this was where our task force was the most vulnerable. This [00:07:00] was the one place, the one opportunity that Saddam Hussein could drop his chemical weapons on us. Because if you’re a heavy, the 3rd Infantry Division, which you probably, which you already know, is a heavy armored division.

[00:07:12] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:07:12] Justin Morseth: We’ve got big toys, Abrams, Bradleys.

[00:07:15] We cover a large geography of space, so 20 miles is very narrow in the grand scheme of things.

[00:07:22] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:22] Justin Morseth: So on April 2nd I awoke actually at 01 to a dead bra- or dead battery in my Bradley. All my comm’s gone. I knew we were leaving at 2:00 in the morning, the entire Task Force 3-69. I was attached to a tank company.

[00:07:38] I was an infantry rifle platoon leader, but we were sliced over to Task Force 3-69 Armor. So anyways, I had to embarrassingly go call for my wing track to come over and jump my Bradley. You know, I’m the platoon leader, of course, I’ve got to have comms. And we finally make our LD, and everyone’s ready [00:08:00] to go.

[00:08:00] The sky’s… It’s pitch black, but there’s no sand than the dust being kicked up from the tracks. And we had a 20-kilometer movement to the Karbala Gap, and it wasn’t that far away. ~Um,~ it took us over four hours to get there, and through that time it was really scary because there were rock quarries around.

[00:08:21] And in the middle of March, my parent battalion, Task Force 2-7, their Alpha Company, one of the platoon leaders, this is what people don’t know, and this is why I like to talk about the invasion, Bradley fell 60 feet and dropped, killing two. Everyone else was severely injured. The Bradley was so damaged it had to be stripped for parts.

[00:08:42] And this is all hiccups that are happening prior to even meeting Saddam’s heavy, you know, conventional forces. So we finally get on. Anyways, we finally, we finally get around those rock quarries and it was very difficult and so, so scary. ~Um,~ [00:09:00] we finally get on our direction of attack skins, which was a roadway that took us up to the dike near the, near the, near the reservoir, Lake Hrazaz, and there was a, a large canal over it.

[00:09:11] We had those two crossing points to get through Karbala Gap, and we knew they were heavily defended by the fading forces. ~Um,~ so at 06 we finally made it through. We fought light to moderate enemy resistance. We did take prisoners, but the majority of them chose to fight and, you know, ~uh,~ the ugliness of war, ~um,~ was displayed there. Once we made that, we consolidated briefly, did a refit, rearm, and then we had another three-hour movement to what this place was called, Attack Position Waynes, which was a pre-planned fuel stop where we’d refit, rearm, eat, do whatever, and rehearse for Objective Peach. ‘Cause the next piece of the pie, it was 9:30 in the morning when we got there, was [00:10:00] our marching order was to maneuver at 12:30 towards Objective Peach, which was another 25-kilometer movement.

[00:10:07] So we haven’t slept really and We take off at 12:30 on time, and during the movement we’re in light to moderate enemy resistance on DOA Aggies, which is our direction of attack. However, scouts encountered, ~um,~ a lot of Fedayeen forces to our southeast, which was closest to the river. We were traveling northeast towards the Euphrates, putting us directly in line to Baghdad. ~uh,~ we had a hell of a time with these Fedayeen fighters conducting sloping patterns from south to north, hitting us from our flanks. So we had to maneuver our, ~uh,~ Alpha Company, Team Assassin, which was tank heavy, they had to maneuver into that area to protect our flanks as we continued with the main body on direction of attack Aggies. a lot of combat during that time, not particularly from my [00:11:00] company. We did see some, but mainly from Team Assassin and Team Rock, which was in our, our lead. That was my company that I got sliced away from. we finally, within five kilometers of the bridge, start taking heavy artillery, ~um,~ from the Republican Guards.

[00:11:15] And we’re on a hardball road– a hardball road, it’s an improved, like, gravel road, and at that point, we’re in attack column, entire task force going straight towards, the bridge. You can see, you can– You knew the Euphrates was getting close because you could see a thin green tint at the base of the horizon. then you also saw smoke billowing upwards, because we already had precise artillery targets. We knew the bridge was potentially gonna be mined and rigged, you know, with demolitions, because they did that another bridge fight on March 24th. ~Um-~ So we, what we did, what Colonel Marcone, our task force commander did was, ~um,~ drop mechanical [00:12:00] smoke and artillery near the four corners of the bridge to disrupt any demolition party to, ~uh,~ willing to explode the, ~uh,~ bridge. Al-Qaa’ bridge itself is over 400 meters long, so it’s over the length of four football fields, and the scariest thing about it is river below. The maximum or the most shallow depth of the Euphrates River is 33 feet deep. It’s a series of dams that go all the way down south towards Kuwait the, the m- and the deepest is 148 feet. So here we are already taking artillery within five kilometers. Ryan with, ~uh,~ you know, my good friend Ryan, he’s with Team Rock in the lead. taking most of the artillery at this point, and we’re still moving forward. We’ve got Apache attack helicopters above us. I mean, it was like something you saw out of the movies.

[00:12:53] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Yeah

[00:12:55] Justin Morseth: the targets. We’re hitting the targets. ~Um, um,~ but once we get near [00:13:00] the bridge head, they had a reconnaissance battalion, Republican Guards and Fading Forces protecting that bridge head, and we were there for the better part of 30 minutes to an hour fighting them until we had fire superiority on the near side. ~Um,~ once that was set, we identified there were wires and demolitions to the bridge. at that point, was already planned, ~uh,~ contingency plan. Team Apache, which was our combat engineer element led by Captain Hibner, we first employed a bunch of smoke from our chemical platoon, which I’ve never seen M58 Foxes.

[00:13:38] They just– It’s like this big smoke stack above a one one three, and it just billows enormous amount of smoke. I’ve never seen so much smoke, and there was a platoon of four vehicles that went from north to south to create this gigantic smoke screen for our engineers because if you can believe it or not, we brought Zodiacs with us.

[00:13:58] Scott DeLuzio: Okay

[00:13:59] Justin Morseth: Desert. [00:14:00] So here we are launching four Zodiacs, two, ~uh,~ platoon of sappers, which is, you know, our highly skilled combat engineers, and then a platoon of infantrymen from Team Bandits Red Platoon. So the smoke screen is up at, at 15:45, they launch the boats They get in the water, their equipment’s too heavy, some of the boats start sinking. The current’s too strong. A couple of the Zodiacs drift 200 meters downstream. We’ve got Republican Guards are on the other side of the river engaging us with BMPs, tanks, a considerable amount of ballistic missile defenses, and plenty of infantry and RPG teams, trucks. I mean, everything you can think of conventionally is on the other side of the river.

[00:14:47] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:47] Justin Morseth: They float two, 200 yards downstream, and they finally make it back up to the bridge. There’s combat going on at this time, and we’re getting rounds and rounds of artillery. It’s everything outside the vehicle is [00:15:00] about as dangerous as it gets. We’re buttoned up, no hatch open, and time is our enemy at that point. we had to wait for them to trudge 200 meters back to the bridge and, ~uh,~ they clearing the bridge and at about 16:15, they blew the right span. So the right span of the bridge was now blown. A ra- Apache, the engineers radio us, tell them south bridge is a no-go, we’re still clearing the north.

[00:15:29] So we’re in this holding area. Company Team Steel. We’re the main effort that’s going to assault over. And we’re getting all this information. You’re thinking, okay, the bridge, the right span is blown, now it’s the left that’s clear. We’ve got engineers under the bridge. got direct fire, we’ve got artillery, we’ve got Apaches.

[00:15:49] All this stuff is going on, and all we can do is wait. You know, of course we don’t wanna go, and they’ve got burning cars apex of the bridge blocking our [00:16:00] position. ~Um,~ so at around– finally at around 16:35, 16:45, we get the all clear. But here’s where it gets even dicier for us is we couldn’t see anything anymore.

[00:16:14] It was no- I call it whenever I’d speak, I call it the white curtain of smoke just raised. It was the first time we saw the blue sky in over a week, so that part was great, but it just looked like you raised a white curtain in the air. And we had to wait for one of the sappers to come out of that smoke and drop two smoke canisters on the ground, two colored smokes, and that was our assault lane. And we were gonna go through the smoke, and I think there were cones on the ground, too. You couldn’t really see anything, and you had to make sure that vehicle in front of you was close ’cause you could go veer off and go wherever. And that was scary ’cause it was kinda like going through an airplane, but it lasted, it felt like it lasted forever.

[00:16:56] And then all of a sudden you come out of the smoke and boom, there’s the bridge [00:17:00] head. then all of a sudden I see Team Rock engaging, and then we’re going over the bridge And I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the movie The Matrix.

[00:17:10] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:17:11] Justin Morseth: moving so fast, but yet it was in slow motion. I was sticking out of the turret. The 25-millimeter cannon was firing, you know, which was– I’ve not done that in live time, or training, and all guns were firing, engaged in something. here we are, we had to make it across the bridge, and you’re sitting there thinking, I’ve got 18-year-old privates in the back of my vehicle, and I always bring this up, that were just at their high school prom the year before. And here they are crossing a major bridge over the Euphrates River. You talk about having to grow up fast, and I think, and I always say this, they are some of the best versions of an American.

[00:17:55] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:56] Justin Morseth: ~Uh,~ anyways, I’m kind of digressing there, but I always talk [00:18:00] about that. But we had a– we fought until about 1900 hours, the area until, you know, it was declared clear. ~Um~ There was a lot of death and destruction on that side of the river.

[00:18:11] Scott DeLuzio: Sure, sure

[00:18:12] Justin Morseth: got into our blocking position, and then were told to hold. ~Uh,~ there was a potential enemy counterattack, and we had to wait for second brigade. They got mired in some vegetation, and they were way behind schedule. So now we had to hold it, hold the bridgehead overnight. We had the other company teams as reinforcement, but we were a good two kilometers east of everyone else. ~Um,~ did you wanna stop and ask another question

[00:18:39] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Well, I, I just wanted to point out to the listeners who maybe haven’t experienced things like this themselves, you know, for, for any of the, you know, the civilians or, or just the, the folks who are interested in, you know, what goes on in a combat operation. ~Um,~ I think one of the first things that you said was that, you know, it, it, basically nothing was going right.

[00:18:58] You know? And, and, uh, but- [00:19:00] As soon as you leave the gate or as soon you, you leave the wire or whatever it is that you’re, you’re, you’re le- getting into, ~um,~ you can kinda, like the plans that you have are good, like keep them around, but you can probably plan on them not being the thing that actually works out because, ~uh,~ you know, no, no good plan survives the enemy contact.

[00:19:20] Like it, it’s just not gonna happen. ~Um,~

[00:19:22] Justin Morseth: Bill is

[00:19:22] Scott DeLuzio: exactly, always, always. And so, ~um,~ you know, one of the things that I think y- we do well as an American military is, is that FRAGO, is that we’re able to, ~uh,~ you know, think on the fly, adjust, you know, as things are, are happening in real time. ~Um,~ you know, you had, you had a situation where your, your truck’s battery died and, you know, you’re, you’re, “Okay, I got no comms, I got no truck, I got, you know, what do I do?

[00:19:46] And I gotta leave in an hour. I, this is not like I can go, you know, make an appointment down at the, ~uh,~ you know, the, the motor pool or anything, get, get, ~uh,~ you know, parts replaced or whatever. It, this needs to be fixed now.”

[00:19:56] Justin Morseth: No

[00:19:57] Scott DeLuzio: and so, you know, how do I fix this? How do I [00:20:00] do this? ~Um,~ you know, and, and then when you take en- enemy contact, you, you don’t know, you can’t plan on exactly where they’re gonna be and what, what, ~uh,~ you know, ~uh,~ weapons or anything like that, that they’re gonna have.

[00:20:10] You, you can’t plan on, on that, ~uh,~ you know, all the time, you know, without really good intelligence, but, you know, that doesn’t always happen either. So,

[00:20:18] Justin Morseth: No. No

[00:20:19] Scott DeLuzio: so you’re, you’re showing up there and, ~um,~ you have to make decisions right away and, and right or wrong, you’re making a decision and, and you gotta, gotta just stick to it and, and make the, the next best decision as, as you’re going along every, every time, ~uh,~ you get that.

[00:20:35] So, ~um,~ yeah, I just wanted to point that out to the listeners who, who maybe haven’t experienced that. Even there, there’s, I’m sure there’s some listeners who have experienced combat and they’re, they’re probably sitting there shaking their head like, “Yep, same thing.” You know, different location, different, you know, ~uh,~ combat, but, you know, same, same type of situation.

[00:20:52] So, ~um,~ you know, I know, I know like for you, you do a lot of this, ~uh,~ you know, public speaking and you, you talk about this type of stuff a lot, so, ~um,~ you know, [00:21:00] it’s, ~uh,~ probably wasn’t easy when you first started doing this, but you’ve been doing this for, you know, several years now, and so it’s probably gotten easier over time to, ~uh,~ kind of discuss some of this stuff.

[00:21:10] But I know a lot of folks who come back home, they have a hard time talking about it to anybody, even, you know, family members or friends, and they have a hard time talking about the stuff that they did. ~Um,~ but, ~um,~ you know, more importantly, I think they, they sometimes have a hard time making peace with what they had to do or what they saw or, you know, people that they lost, things like that.

[00:21:28] ~Um,~ and I know, ~uh,~ you know, moral injury is something, ~uh,~ that, that you said that you, you talk about, ~um,~ you know, probably has shown up in your own life. How, how do you, how would you explain that to someone who has never, ~uh,~ experienced that or heard that term, ~uh,~ before?

[00:21:41] Justin Morseth: It’s gaining a lot of traction nowadays to the

[00:21:45] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:21:45] Justin Morseth: where it’s almost becoming a diagnosis. It’s, it comes down to one thing essentially, and I think if you were raised or if you have any sort of moral compass and you have to go through the things that I had to go through, the decisions I had to [00:22:00] make, ~um~ It’s difficult because in the moment you think it’s surreal. Like you– for example, Objective Peach, when we left, there was no paid time off, administrative leave, mandatory counseling or anything like that. And I explained this to– I was just at Indianapolis, one of the police departments there, talking about brain injury, moral injury, talking about what we’re talking about to them. And I, you know, I explained to them the transition from Objective Peach to Objective Lions, that wasn’t supposed to be our, you know, our mission, Objective Lions. And, you know, we left and I told them, I go, “We looked at every– I, I saw every body, the burning, the gore, and we just left.” And without having paid time off, administrative leave or mandatory counseling, you don’t process that. You’re not, you’re not allowed to pro-process those things in the military. In order to survive in combat, it’s anger, humor, and hypervigilance. how you survive, and obviously working closely with your buddies.

[00:22:59] Scott DeLuzio: [00:23:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:00] Justin Morseth: But the moral injury component is, when I talk about it, I don’t believe in killing. I hate killing unless it’s justified. But when I speak I not only think about the brothers and sisters that we lost, you know, why did I make it home? But something that I, I feel guilty about is there’s an, there’s an anniversary for another group of people that we don’t think about, they live in Iraq.

[00:23:31] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:32] Justin Morseth: You know? I’m responsible, my guys are responsible for it, taking life, taking a grandfather, taking a husband, a brother, a nephew. They don’t know who I am or my unit, and they’re now gone. And they don’t– And maybe that person was the financial supporter, you know? And the burden that we– the decision that we made, that we had to do affected them. It [00:24:00] didn’t affect the soldier, it affects their families too. So I’ve tried to really open my heart and be more empathetic to that respect, and that really bugs me for some reason, you know?

[00:24:10] And I think a lot of it has to do with we didn’t get to process what we just did at Objective Peach.

[00:24:15] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:24:17] Justin Morseth: We just left it, and it, and it felt in a spiritual sense so dirty. You know? Like, not that I, I didn’t like doing it, but I, I had to do it. I didn’t mind doing it. It was for the safety and welfare of the mission and my men.

[00:24:32] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:24:33] Justin Morseth: But it just– For me, the moral injury component, it registered, it hit me hard is when my first son was born.

[00:24:40] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:41] Justin Morseth: I was not married, or I was married, but no kids at the time, so I didn’t really– I knew marriage, but I didn’t understand family, you know, and, and the dynamics of that, of having a kid or anything like that. But as soon as Sander, my, my firstborn was– I, you know, I’m embarrassed to say this, [00:25:00] but I do s-say it. I went home. My wife told me to go home and shower, and I went home where I should have been excited and happy, but I was panicked and sad.

[00:25:11] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:25:11] Justin Morseth: And I drank the entire day, and I don’t know why. I sh- I, I was happy. I did– You know, Sander was on my chest. I did all that. I felt good about being a father. But when I went home– Because I saw kids over there that you never want to see in that form. Not because of me or anybody in my task force, but you saw it, and it rots you on the inside if you don’t address it and make yourself vulnerable and talk about it. I kept that stuff buried for a long time until about six years ago, after I went through holy hell find this version that you’re seeing today.

[00:25:55] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:25:56] Justin Morseth: ~Um~

[00:25:56] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and when, I, I think a lot of [00:26:00] the, ~um,~ issues that, that people have, you know, one of the things that, that we do is we, we tend to, ~uh,~ dehumanize the enemy, and we, we come up with names for them that are not, you know, that guy over there. No, it’s not that guy. It’s, you know, it’s some derogatory term that we come up with just to make them feel like they’re less hu- than human than, you know, to us.

[00:26:21] And so if we do have to kill them, then, you know, it feels like, oh, well, you know, it’s, it’s almost like the same thing as stepping on an ant or a, you know, a spider or something like that. It’s, it, it’s not human, and then so it doesn’t matter. ~Um,~ but they are human, to your point. It, and, and they, they really are, but, ~um,~ I think that’s just a coping mechanism that a lot of us, it kind of came up with and, ~um,~ you, you know, and you’ve seen that through all the, the wars going back in, in our history is, you know, that, that same type of, ~uh, uh,~ you know, language is being used to kind of dehumanize the enemy because it just makes it that much easier to be able to pull the trigger or, or whatever, when, whenever you’re, ~uh,~ in that type of, ~uh,~ situation.

[00:26:58] And, ~uh,~ it, [00:27:00] it’s not … It doesn’t make it any better, but it, ~uh,~ may- maybe makes it easier in the moment. But then, you know, fast-forward to you come home and you get, get some time to actually stop and kind of think about it a little bit and, ~um,~ you know, then that’s when, I think that’s where some of the problems start coming in.

[00:27:15] Not, not right in that moment that, that you’re engaged in the combat, because your mind’s someplace else. Your mind is on survival. Your mind is on, you know,

[00:27:23] Justin Morseth: It’s a

[00:27:23] Scott DeLuzio: men. It’s on, on the, the vehicles that you’re, you’re in, and it’s on all of that type of stuff. It’s not on, you know, “Was this the right thing to do?”

[00:27:32] and blah, blah, blah. No. It’s, it’s, “I need to survive, and I’ll worry about whether it was right or wrong later.” Now is survival. And, ~um,~ you know, I, I think, ~uh,~ you know, to, to my point earlier, a lot of folks come home, ~uh,~ not really knowing how to have these conversations. ~Uh,~ they, they, they might feel, ~uh,~ ashamed or guilty or, or something like that, you know, because of, of the things that they had to do and, and it’s, it’s hard to, ~um,~ hard to put these things into words in a way [00:28:00] that, ~um,~ that allows you to first off have this conversation with somebody, whether it’s a therapist or a friend or a family member or something.

[00:28:07] But, ~um,~ you know, how do I, how do I tell, you know, how do I tell my wife that I had to do these terrible things, and now is she gonna look at me differently like I’m some sort of, you know, monster or some sort of animal that, that did all this crazy stuff? ~Um,~ you know, and so then you s- start worrying about all those kind of things and, ~um,~ you know, it, it’s hard, but it’s, it’s something that, that’s necessary, too, to be able to unpack and process this stuff that you had to stuff down while you’re in, in the middle of that, too, right?

[00:28:34] Justin Morseth: Yeah, I– when I first got back, made the mistake of just getting out. I resigned my commission. I wasn’t planning on staying in, I got out six months later, and I got a pharmaceutical job. ~Uh,~ but of course, people were interested, and they wanted to talk. The war was brand new, and they wanted to ask me a million questions.

[00:28:53] And then they, you know, people are really respectful, and they almost treat you like a hero. ~Um,~ but even though on, on the [00:29:00] inside you feel kinda dark,

[00:29:01] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:29:01] Justin Morseth: ~um,~ and, ~um,~ guarded. And the only way I was able to explain my combat was through sports.

[00:29:08] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm

[00:29:09] Justin Morseth: You know, I, I would explain it like a sporting event. Like I, you know, I played football, through college and, ~um,~ I would explain it as if like, oh, it’s no different, you know, it was n- no hard feelings.

[00:29:21] It was one team against the next. You know, the only difference is people died. And in some cases, the, you know, from a teamwork perspective, it is relatable. but that was the only way I could explain it. You know, I’d– I could talk about the gore some, but I was always You’re just always concerned what people are– how they’re going to react.

[00:29:46] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:29:47] Justin Morseth: ~uh,~ I am, and I told the, you know, I told the police last week or a couple weeks, or the academy that I talked to a couple weeks ago, it’s the literally the only time you can [00:30:00] get away with murder. You know? And you sit there and think about those things, and then you hear the news, so and so, a convicted felon murdered this and this and this, and you’re like, “Yeah, I did this for my country, but it was still an act

[00:30:14] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:14] Justin Morseth: of killing.” You

[00:30:16] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:30:17] Justin Morseth: get kinda mired and you kinda get stuck over there, and you get… I felt like half of– I had a combat boot still stuck in Iraq a dress shoe and a pharmaceutical suit. I, I felt completely different. And the biggest, the biggest thing I noticed was when I first started working pharmaceutical, I met my partner rep, and he was literally– I had literally just gotten out, and he was complaining to me about having to go to Chicago for five days to our sales meeting. in a five-star hotel, eat, drink for free. Cell phones were new then, so everyone had a cell phone. And he knew my background, and I was like, [00:31:00] I was puzzled.

[00:31:00] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:31:01] Justin Morseth: I go, “That doesn’t sound like a bad deal, even if I didn’t get deployed.”

[00:31:05] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:31:06] Justin Morseth: Go, “That’s way better than anything I’ve ever enjoyed in the military.”

[00:31:09] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, right

[00:31:10] Justin Morseth: enjoyed the military, but as far as making it about as cush and Hollywood red– Pharmaceutical companies make everything as Hollywood red carpet as it gets. I mean, they doll it up. And that’s when I knew I was different. I

[00:31:22] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:22] Justin Morseth: knew I had a little bit of a shorter fuse. I had a worldview. I’ve seen the ugliness of the world.

[00:31:28] I– know, Iraq is not that, was not that advanced. It, it felt primitive. and It just, it was, I guess, confusing, you know, coming back here

[00:31:40] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s not an uncommon thing. Like, a lot of folks get that same kind of feeling where they feel like they, I, I don’t know, I can’t relate with these people who, you know, are complaining about having to stay in a five-star hotel for, for a week or whatever it is. You know, like, what the hell is wrong with you?

[00:31:56] If, if that’s, if that’s what you have to, to bitch about, like, that’s, [00:32:00] I

[00:32:00] Justin Morseth: It’s,

[00:32:00] Scott DeLuzio: going pretty good, right?

[00:32:01] Justin Morseth: yeah

[00:32:02] Scott DeLuzio: you know, so, ~um,~ but, ~um,~ you know, one of the things that, that I, I found, like, some other, ~uh,~ from other conversations I should say, ~uh,~ from people that I’ve, I’ve had conversations with, is the, the questions that, that you get asked from your coworkers or family or whatever, you know.

[00:32:19] Do you ever kill anyone? Or, you know, tho- those kinda, kinda questions which, you know, I, I always try to tell people, like, that, just don’t ask those questions. Like, that, that’s not a… You don’t wanna know the answer either way, because regardless of what the answer is, if I say, “Yes, I did,” then you’re gonna be looking at me like I’m some sort of, you know, bloodthirsty monster, and you- it’s gonna change your perspective of me.

[00:32:41] If I say, “No, I didn’t,” you’re gonna say, “Oh, this guy had a, a, you know, a, an easy deployment and he didn’t do anything on, on this deployment. What is he even bitching about?” You know?

[00:32:49] Justin Morseth: Yeah

[00:32:50] Scott DeLuzio: regardless of the answer, like, it’s gonna change your perspective of, of who I am, so, like, don’t, don’t even ask those types of questions.

[00:32:58] You know, like, hey, [00:33:00] you wanna ask some questions, you wanna, you wanna find out some, some stuff about it, fine. That, that’s fine. But certain questions, just think about it before you ask those questions, right?

[00:33:09] Justin Morseth: It almost feels like you’re at– you’re like an, a zoo animal at an exhibit, you

[00:33:15] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:33:15] Justin Morseth: a, in a way, you know.

[00:33:16] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:33:16] Justin Morseth: questions, you know, the, the difficult questions that, you know, not that they shouldn’t ask them,

[00:33:21] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:33:22] Justin Morseth: you gotta get to know the veteran first, I would think, before you ask.

[00:33:24] Scott DeLuzio: Yep.

[00:33:25] Justin Morseth: ~Um,~ I don’t have a problem saying it anymore.

[00:33:27] You know, I did two years. ~Uh,~ my VA counselor, Dr. Heidi Knox, she fought and fought and fought, and I went through two years of prolonged exposure, which was really helpful because then it made me just kind of accept it is what it is. I happened to be at Fort Stewart during that time. I, I did my job, you know, courageously and to the best of my abilities, I came home with all my men. ~Um,~ so But you do get looked at differently. But I do notice there’s a better sense [00:34:00] of admiration now from the general public

[00:34:02] Scott DeLuzio: right.

[00:34:03] Justin Morseth: that there’s so much more awareness. Like when I, when I spoke last– a couple weeks ago at the police academy, they had no idea the kind of stuff that we had gone through. They had no idea that there’s not this mandatory counseling following an incident like that, you know, the paid time off, the turn in your weapon.

[00:34:22] You know, they–

[00:34:22] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:34:23] Justin Morseth: then when I talked about TBIs, they did not understand the symptoms are associated with that. They can also look as if they’re impaired,

[00:34:31] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:32] Mm-hmm

[00:34:33] Justin Morseth: know. So, you know, and my– Dr. Heidi Knox, she asks– always asks me to speak. She’s my occupational therapist, and she’s excellent. ~Um,~ but she talks a lot about brain injuries and, you know, it’s so helpful for even law enforcement, for anybody, because we lose– When you have a brain injury, you sometimes get lost in thought.

[00:34:53] You sometimes, you have, ~um,~ auditory, you know, rem-remembering, you know, auditory, you know, [00:35:00] people asking you questions. Sometimes I’m like, “I’m so sorry, I get lost in thought,” they’ll have to ask a question again. Some people slur, so they sound like they’re inebriated. There’s all this awareness, ~um,~ because for me, I, I’m not missing limbs, and my biggest thing with, you know, with the VA, the VA is so much better now, but I think healthcare professionals, particularly with the VA, if you look like you or me, I’m assuming you have all your limbs,

[00:35:25] Scott DeLuzio: Yep

[00:35:25] Justin Morseth: you know, that you’re, you’re fine. But you wouldn’t know that I have a full-blown seizure disorder from a brain injury from falling off my Bradley before we took the airport and landing on my head.

[00:35:37] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:38] Justin Morseth: You wouldn’t know I have three heart conditions now associated with, you know, exposure and things like that. So when I talk to these people, I, I, you know, I, I say to them, “You’re not looking for the guy in a wheelchair that has his sleeve taped to his shoulder, you know, missing a limb.

[00:35:55] You gotta do your detective work, because on the inside of me, I have this going [00:36:00] on, this going on, and moral injury.” And yes, I think everyone gets some form of when they’re in a theater where their life is at risk, no matter what they’re doing.

[00:36:08] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:08] Justin Morseth: I think we all come back with some version of it or heightened anxiety But I stressed they had no idea.

[00:36:16] They’re like, “I would have never known that you had a seizure disorder or you have heart conditions.” You know, I got my act together once I decided to make myself vulnerable that there was something wrong with me. And when I made myself vulnerable, that’s when I got back to the best version of myself or closest.

[00:36:32] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:36:32] Justin Morseth: that’s, ~uh,~ that’s the other problem with, with veterans, though. We have to lower our guard, but, but that’s also dicey because the people with whom we interact don’t do a very good job making us feel enabled to lower our guard.

[00:36:45] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:36:46] Justin Morseth: You know, and that’s– I’m particularly talking about healthcare professionals. ~Um,~ but they’re so much better. And the VA, like I said, are leaps and bounds better than they used to be, but that is, something that I’ve struggled with

[00:36:57] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, no, for sure. And, you know, [00:37:00] over the years I’ve s- I’ve seen it get better, and hearing the, the horror stories from people years ago who, who went to the VA and just had no support whatsoever or, you know, like you said, “Oh, you have all your limbs, you look fine,” you know, g- you know,

[00:37:14] Justin Morseth: Right

[00:37:14] Scott DeLuzio: “You’re on your way.” ~Um,~ now they’re, they’re a little bit more understanding of the internal injuries, of the, the invisible wounds, of the things like TBI and PTSD and, and all, all the things that, that go on, ~uh,~ in- inside of you.

[00:37:28] You know, e- even, you know, the, the things like a heart condition or, or things like that. It’s like just ’cause you have all your limbs doesn’t mean your heart is in, in perfect shape. So, you

[00:37:37] Justin Morseth: My

[00:37:37] Scott DeLuzio: there’s

[00:37:37] Justin Morseth: Megan, sorry,

[00:37:38] Scott DeLuzio: No, that-

[00:37:39] Justin Morseth: ~um,~ pleaded with the VA, the neurologist. I was drinking a lot then because I just, I couldn’t calm down. You know, I was– At that point, I was in orthopedic trauma and total joint rep, so I was on call 24 hours, seven days a week. But that wasn’t the anxiety. It was just getting worse and worse, and I was running away from my problems.

[00:37:56] ~Um,~ and then the grandma seizures hit in ’13 and ’15, [00:38:00] and then I gave up on the VA because the neurologist said I was nothing but a drunk. And he called, he called my wife and I a marvelous dysfunction. Meanwhile, you know, I don’t have a problem saying this, ~uh,~ we did research on him, and he tested hot for morphine multiple times, and he was on probation through the VA. And, ~uh,~ that was the last part, and this was back in 2013– ’14, 2015. And my wife had gotten fed up and made, we made an appointment at Rush Memorial in Chicago, where they do what they call a SPECT scan. That’s the gold standard brain injury scan. The VA doesn’t do that. ~Um,~ but when I got the SPECT scan, the front, the frontal lobe was damaged. prefrontal cortex damage, and there was another area that was damaged. And I say this during talks, and I tell Dr. Noft yes, like I– if the VA did more, if they did SPECT scans, would be a lot more mild to tr-traumatic brain injuries, mild to moderate traumatic brain injuries

[00:38:56] Scott DeLuzio: sure. Yeah, and y- yeah, you kind of have [00:39:00] to wonder, you know, why aren’t they doing it? And, ~uh,~ you know, we probably can take a guess as, as to why they’re not doing it. But, ~um, ~you know, I,

[00:39:07] Justin Morseth: Yeah.

[00:39:07] Scott DeLuzio: I won’t go there. I won’t go…

[00:39:09] Justin Morseth: compensation might be, ~uh,~ an issue.

[00:39:10] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, right.

[00:39:11] Justin Morseth: Even Dr. Knox, she’s like, “Yeah,

[00:39:13] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:39:14] Justin Morseth: a lot of misdiagnosed brain injuries out there.” I wasn’t diagnosed for– with one, not until I had to go through those grandma seizures, and my wife would always say that I was shaking in my n- at night. You know, I would do weird things that I, of course, was in denial of. You know, at that point, I wasn’t ready to accept it. And then when I finally decided to make myself vulnerable, I went to a head injury center that was not VA affiliated called After the Impact. It’s up in, ~uh,~ Ann Arbor, Michigan. It’s for professional athletes that suffer from head injuries and combat veterans, and it was there that I finally had to come to Jesus with myself, and I have been through a lot.

[00:39:52] I’ve been through a number of treatment centers and realized, okay, this, that, and that has happened, and they’re all dangerous.

[00:39:58] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:59] Justin Morseth: You [00:40:00] need to get it together. You, you’re not Superman like you think you are.

[00:40:04] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:40:04] Justin Morseth: have things wrong. Things are jacked up, and you’ve got to address them. And Scott, the only way I got better was because of that. I had to make myself vulnerable and accept the fact that I am different now. My body is different, I can still adapt, and I think that’s what I was hung up on, denial, and I’m never gonna be able to do whatever I did ever again.

[00:40:27] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. N- no one wants to be in that, that position where they, they can’t do the things that they used to do. You know, e- even just, you know, anybody, y- you know, a normal person getting older who, you know, maybe their eyesight’s going and they, you know, eventually can’t drive or they can’t, you know, their mobility is, you know, reduced and they can’t do some of the things that they used to do.

[00:40:48] No- nobody wants to get to that point. They, they… It feels terrible that you can’t do something that you used to be able to do. ~Um,~ I, I remember when I, I got home from Afghanistan, I, I had to go, ~uh,~ have a, a knee surgery, and [00:41:00] I, I, I went to physical therapy, and they were just having me do simple stuff like sitting in a chair and standing up, and sitting in a…

[00:41:06] I was like, seriously, I was carrying, like, 100-pound rocks up and down mountains in Afghanistan, and n- now I’m sitting, sitting down and standing up, and that, that’s my exercise right now. It’s like, what the hell is this?

[00:41:16] Justin Morseth: immortalizing.

[00:41:17] Scott DeLuzio: what has my life come to, you know?

[00:41:18] Justin Morseth: Yeah. That’s the only problem about the military. It, it shows you so many things that you never thought you could do, so then when you come back– For example, when I talk, I call, you know, I always say, you know, one engagement raises our trauma threshold. You know, just kinda like a seizure threshold.

[00:41:35] You wanna raise your seizure threshold. So all the combat, we kept getting stronger as far as more resistive, resistant to trauma and, you know, and that, and that stuff eventually snowballs

[00:41:47] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. ~Um,~ l- let’s, ~uh,~ let’s jump ahead a little bit here. Let’s talk about, ~uh,~ Pets Healing Vets. ~Um,~ talk about that, that organization and, and what you guys do with, you know, connecting veterans dealing with, you know, all sorts of [00:42:00] things, ~um,~ you know, with the, ~uh,~ the animals that, ~uh,~ that, that you guys connect them with

[00:42:03] Justin Morseth: First off, I cannot take credit for conceptualizing Pet Ceiling Vets. wife, the mighty Megan Morrissette, this was her idea, and we were at our worst. We were struggling with our marriage. I was at my worst. I was in denial. And we’ve always had animals, and As a way for her to cope with what everything was going on in our life, she would go down to the Humane Society and volunteer at the Hamilton County Humane Society in Carmel, Indiana.

[00:42:33] And she would dog walk, get them out of the shelter, walk them around. then she came back with this idea because she knew how much I loved my– the dog I had in the army, my, ~uh,~ s- I had a Alaskan Husky named Samson, and she just kind of had this idea, came home. She’s like, “What do you think of starting meeting with Hamilton County Humane Society?

[00:42:52] I was talking to a lady and starting a program geared towards pairing shelter animals with veterans with brain injuries, [00:43:00] PTSD, or military sexual trauma.” And I was not on board because I just thought that it was just a big arrow pointing to weak veteran.

[00:43:10] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:43:11] Justin Morseth: You know, I felt weak. I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no, no. I don’t need a service dog. I have all– I, I’m fine. I’m fine,” or anything, because that’s where I thought she was heading. But eventually, I got on board, and I talk about it all the time. You know, at IU, we have roughly 90 veterans in the program. ~Um,~ it’s a terrific way to– for those veterans, they meet with their dogs together. ~Um,~ there’s an annual event through the Humane Society called Tinsels and Tails, where they have a table where all the veterans, the new veterans that are in the program bring their dogs and everyone meets. It’s just another outlet for a veteran to, to communicate with another veteran that honestly are sharing the same kind of emotional problems, and they’re looking to fill a healthy void, you know, with their animals.

[00:43:59] And [00:44:00] it’s an amazing program. There’s– to the best of our research, we have not found an organization across the country that pays for the entire life of– that pays for all the costs for the entire life of the pet. That’s drop-ship food, you know, delivered to their residence, any vet care, emergency or not. ~Um,~ cover everything. There’s not one thing that they have to worry about except for water.

[00:44:24] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:25] Justin Morseth: ~Um,~ so it’s been a fantastic program. Some veterans are on dog number two, and the idea behind it is saving lives at both ends of the leash.

[00:44:32] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:44:33] Justin Morseth: know, they will come in and the– they have a behaviorist, an animal behaviorist that identify, that will meet with the veteran and identify his or her needs, their lifestyle, and then she will pair them, l- ~uh,~ bring out three animals for them to from based on their– on fit, and we haven’t had a single animal returned. They’ve all, they’ve all been fantastic experiences, and there are a [00:45:00] handful of them are on dog number two or cat number two.

[00:45:02] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:45:03] Justin Morseth: So

[00:45:04] Scott DeLuzio: And,

[00:45:04] Justin Morseth: really good

[00:45:05] Scott DeLuzio: a- and, and being able to, to do that and, and pair people up with, with these animals, ~uh,~ like you said, it, it does save lives on, on both end of the leash. It de- definitely helps the, the service member or the veteran who is dealing with whatever it is that they, they got going on. But, you know, you go to some of these shelters and some of these animals who, ~um,~ you know, they, they only have so much time at that shelter before they’re, they’re put down.

[00:45:27] And, ~um,~ you know, so it, it does save, save both of those lives. And, ~um,~ you know, those, those animals have, you know, in many cases, a lot of good years left in them. And w- you know, what better way to do that than to be supporting, you know, a, a service member like that or a veteran and, ~uh,~ you know, making their lives better, making their, ~uh,~ family life and their, their work life and all that kind of stuff better by just being there for them

[00:45:50] Justin Morseth: Yeah

[00:45:50] Scott DeLuzio: the things that they, they need them to be able to do.

[00:45:53] ~Um,~ you know, it’s, it’s not easy. ~Um,~ you know, the, the training and all the, the stuff that goes into it’s probably, ~uh,~ you know, pretty difficult and it, it, it’s [00:46:00] costly and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, one- once when you have that, that done and you have the, ~uh,~ the, the veteran able to, ~uh,~ you know, g- walk away with that dog, ~uh,~ or, you know, that animal a- and be able to, ~uh,~ you know, live a better life, it, it’s, you know, you look at it, it’s, it’s all worth it, you know?

[00:46:16] ~Um,~ it’s

[00:46:16] Justin Morseth: I like, the thing I like best about it is they– the veterans usually pick a pit bull. Misunderstood breed by the mis- most misunderstood American, know? And they just, they have this connection ’cause they’re both, you know, it’s like two pieces of broken glass. Pit bulls stay in, stay in those facilities forever, and they’re misunderstood, they’re mismanaged, sometimes get in the wrong hands. But that veteran will, nine times out of 10, they always choose a pit bull, and I love it. You know, because they literally are saved. It’s a no-kill shelter, some of those pit bulls have been in there for, like, two years. And there was one that was in there for seven years that, [00:47:00] her name was Princess, and she was just full of energy.

[00:47:03] I mean, nothing violent about her or anything like that. And this veteran had been through so much, he chose Princess because he wanted someone to just keep him busy.

[00:47:14] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:47:14] Justin Morseth: was just full of energy. And it was, was really, ~uh,~ I mean, it was dramatic, but it was really tearful because that poor dog had been living in that shelter, they treat the dogs very well, um, for seven years.

[00:47:27] And then, you know, that veteran was struggling and something in his life. And then the two, Princess and I don’t remember the veteran’s name, but he was acknowledged at the next Tinsel and Tail fundraising event. And it was so cool seeing that dog, because I’ve seen that dog a, a number of times. I don’t live up there anymore.

[00:47:46] I live down in Bloomington, Indiana. I’ve known Princess for a while, and she’s still alive and at– they have the best life. It’s pretty cool

[00:47:53] Scott DeLuzio: That’s awesome. And I, it was actually interesting, ~uh,~ to think about it the way you just put it, is that, you know, two misunderstood, [00:48:00] you know, the, the veteran and the, ~uh,~ the, the dog.

[00:48:02] Justin Morseth: happens that way, or it’s a cat

[00:48:03] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. The, misunderstood, but they, they work together pretty well, and that’s, that’s pretty awesome, ~uh,~ to, to see that happen, ~um,~ and, and have them rescue each other, ~uh,~ essentially.

[00:48:15] ~Um,~ and so that’s, that’s, that’s really cool. I’m glad you guys are doing that too because there’s, ~uh,~ a lot of… There are, ~uh,~ you know, other organizations obviously that do, ~uh,~ you know, service dogs and that, that type of thing for, for veterans. But it’s a growing need. It’s, it’s a need that, you know, I think people are realizing now that, like, this is actually something that is beneficial and it can work for, for certain people.

[00:48:35] And, ~uh,~ more and more people want to get access to a service dog. And so obviously with more demand and more needs out there, we, we need more organizations out there. So, ~um,~ you know, one of the things I love to do with this show is just raising awareness of, of organizations like this for, for folks who just aren’t familiar with, you know, what’s available out there.

[00:48:53] And so if you’re in that, that ar- area in, ~uh,~ you know, Indiana, ~uh,~ you know,

[00:48:57] Justin Morseth: Yeah, it’s

[00:48:58] Scott DeLuzio: definitely reach out

[00:48:59] Justin Morseth: resident. Like [00:49:00] they, we have them all the way up north

[00:49:01] Scott DeLuzio: Okay

[00:49:02] Justin Morseth: food gets shipped up there. Vet care, they’ll, they’ll pay for the vet costs up there. But, ~um,~ any Indiana resident, ~um,~ you– the only thing that will be a no-go is if you have some sort of violent history.

[00:49:15] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:49:16] Justin Morseth: if there’s anything criminal, that’s an automatic obviously no-go.

[00:49:19] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:49:20] Justin Morseth: ~Um,~ but and then you just have to have one of those three diagnoses from a VA or whoever healthcare professional. It’s a very simple process. You go to hamilton, ~uh,~ humane.org or just, you can just look up Pets Healing Vets and it’ll show up right there. But Hamilton Humane Society out in, out in Indianapolis, to their humane society page and it’ll pop.

[00:49:42] There’ll be a, a menu where you pop down. It’ll say Pets Healing Vets, and then it’ll pop up my story, you know, how it started,

[00:49:50] Scott DeLuzio: Perfect. Yeah. And I, I will, ~uh,~ I’ll, I’ll put a link to all that in the, the show notes and everything too, because I, I want, I want folks to be able to, ~uh,~ you know, find it easily and, and get [00:50:00] access to it, ~uh,~ because I, I don’t want them, ~uh,~ you know, stumbling around trying to f- trying to

[00:50:04] figure figure that out.

[00:50:05] So if I can make it easier for someone, I’ll, I’ll put that in there as well.

[00:50:08] ~Um,~ you know, so, ~um,~ I know we’re kinda running, running up on time here, and I, I don’t wanna, you know, keep it too long. I know there’s… We probably could’ve dove into so many more topics and, and…

[00:50:17] Justin Morseth: I k- I kind of get a little wordy sometimes.

[00:50:20] Scott DeLuzio: No, that’s okay. No, no, no worries there.

[00:50:21] I mean, I, I really enjoyed hearing the, the sto- your stories of, you know, your, your time in Iraq and, and your time coming home and, and dealing with the things that you dealt with. And, ~um,~ you know, the reason why I, I have folks like you on the show is because there are some folks out there listening who think that this is just them, it’s just their problem, that nobody else will understand it.

[00:50:42] But it’s like, no, man, there’s, there’s so many people out there like yourself who have experienced terrible things

[00:50:48] Justin Morseth: almost ga-

[00:50:48] Scott DeLuzio: combat.

[00:50:49] Justin Morseth: up.

[00:50:49] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:50:50] Justin Morseth: almost gave up, but then it just came down to, yeah, started thinking about the, the guys that I served with, and I’m like, “If they saw me right now, like [00:51:00] giving up, they would just think…” You know, that peer pressure you put on yourself. I’m their former PL. you know, I, I keep in contact with my platoon and I, I think humility is the only way to grow.

[00:51:11] And I’m like, “Guys, ~uh,~ you know, I made mistakes. I was drinking too much. Life got– life consumed me, and I was ignoring everything. I’m human.” And, you know, they’re like, “Sir, we’re all– we’ve all been through some form of that.” You know, every single member of my platoon. I’ve got some that are no longer alive, unfortunately. But it’s just something that stays with you,

[00:51:31] Scott DeLuzio: It is

[00:51:32] Justin Morseth: the only thing you can do is groom it the best way you can

[00:51:36] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and, and kind of grow around it and, and figure out how, how to navigate life with that, ~uh,~ baggage, if you will, you know, kinda k- carrying around and, and figure out, you know, the, what’s the easiest way to carry it, you know? Even, you know, think about carrying a rucksack. I know that’s, you know, as an infantry guy, you’re familiar with a rucksack, too.

[00:51:52] You don’t, you don’t want that rucksack low on your back. You, you wanna cinch that thing up nice, nice and high up on your back, and you fi- it’s the same weight, but it’s a whole lot [00:52:00] easier when it’s up high. So you, you-

[00:52:01] Justin Morseth: Awareness is– You’re right about awareness. We just, ~uh,~ I work with closely with IU and– not closely, but you know, I work with them speaking, and they are starting to branch out now and raise more awareness. And we worked for, ~uh,~ we did a talk with Republic Airways, which is a sub-carrier for the airline industry, and we talked about executives wanted us to come in and talk about military culture and combat. Why? Because they have a large number of pilots that are former fighter pilots that were, you know, dropping– They were flying A-10s, dropping munitions. And you talk about carrying a lot of weight, you know, dropping munitions on the ground, not knowing, you know, you knowing what you’re hitting, but just with the trigger, just like that, you know.

[00:52:46] So I think it’s really cool, the moral injury component, the baggage that pilots carry. It needs to just keep growing to other communities because when I worked, nobody cared.

[00:52:55] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:52:56] Justin Morseth: The first thing I noticed when I le- when I got out was [00:53:00] entitlement. The rat race, people are only concerned about themselves for the most part, you know, getting ahead, which I get. ~Um,~ but the awareness just, that’s kind of my mission now these days.

[00:53:12] Scott DeLuzio: Well, it, and I think you’re doing a great job at it, and, ~uh,~ you know, I’m, I’m, I’m sorry that it took so long for us to finally get connected, but I’m glad that we did. I had a, had a great conversation here with, with you and, ~uh,~ you know, I, I have, I feel like I, I, I wanna have you back on to, you know, kind of dive into some more of the, the topics that we, we talked about here.

[00:53:28] So

[00:53:29] Justin Morseth: There’s a minefield I led a task for– led a– during a thunder run going through that minefield, and we stayed the night halfway through because the D9 dozer became a mobility kill, and the Micklets didn’t work. It was crazy.

[00:53:43] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:53:43] Justin Morseth: the most vulnerable I ever felt because we were surrounded. I think I sent you the picture of it

[00:53:47] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it’s, it’s crazy. I, I, I’ll try to see if I can incorporate that somehow into, into the, ~uh,~ episode here for

[00:53:54] Justin Morseth: I asked my– I talked to my task force commander, Colonel Marcone. I’m like, “Sir, there is one thing I have [00:54:00] always wanted to ask you.” Well, I’m leading my ROP platoon, I was leading my platoon. We’re leading the entire task force. I go, “Nobody told me about these mines that were on Highway 8,” which is the east-west main artery. And he goes, “Justin, they put those in the night before.” And we were al- we’d already taken the airport. We were just trying to push further downtown.

[00:54:22] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:54:23] Justin Morseth: yeah, it was just a big nut roll, and there was working with Delta Force. I had Delta Force missions, three of– I mean, I was j- it was just a lot in a 21-day period to process

[00:54:32] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And, and you think about that 21 days is not really a long time. I mean, you, you know, you think about, ~uh,~ you know, the la-

[00:54:39] Justin Morseth: You

[00:54:39] Scott DeLuzio: basically the, the last three weeks, ~uh,~ you know, what- whatever date you’re listening to this, think about the last three weeks. That’s not that long ago,

[00:54:45] Justin Morseth: Yeah

[00:54:46] Scott DeLuzio: that, that happened. But all that stuff that happened to you in such a short amount of time, and, and for anyone who’s been in combat, you know, five minutes feels like an eternity.

[00:54:55] And, ~uh,~ you know, nevermind three, three weeks of it, you [00:55:00] know?

[00:55:00] Justin Morseth: I actually am not an academic. I went to, you know, I went to Dennis University. I was not an academic giant there. I focused more on life and football, but I, ~uh,~ the most academic thing I’ve ever done in my life, you know those black and white composition books?

[00:55:15] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, yeah

[00:55:16] Justin Morseth: I’ve filled up six of them. I wrote every single day.

[00:55:20] So right now I’m trying to write a manuscript,

[00:55:23] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:55:24] Justin Morseth: ~uh,~ from my experiences. I got about 150 pages written, and I’m only like on book– just started book number three. So it’s been really rewarding. It’s not for me, it’s just for the relevance of all the people with whom I served during that 21-day time, ’cause people don’t know much about it.

[00:55:39] You know, when I’ve talked, they’re like, “I don’t remember that in the invas- in, in the Iraq War. heard these stories before.” Well, they did happen

[00:55:46] Scott DeLuzio: Right. And I, I think it’s super important for people like y- you to write these stories, ~uh,~ especially if you have all these, these, ~uh,~ these notebooks filled with information that, you

[00:55:55] Justin Morseth: Yeah

[00:55:55] Scott DeLuzio: don’t wanna forget. And, you know, people obviously are starting to forget, you know, despi- [00:56:00] despite the fact that they might say, “Oh yeah, we’ll never forget these things.”

[00:56:02] But, you know, yeah, they do. And, ~uh,~ so writing these things, ~uh,~ it helps, ~uh,~ you know, for generations to come will, will be able to look back on that type of stuff. So, you know, absolutely. And may- maybe when you get that, that book, ~uh,~ written, may- maybe we could talk to that.

[00:56:15] Justin Morseth: it.

[00:56:16] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:56:16] Justin Morseth: I’ve been working on it. I started last, not this past one. I, I had to pick a date that would hold me accountable, and I started on Memorial Day, not this past year, but the year before. So I’m like, it’s an honor for the guys that passed. I’m like, I have to hold myself accountable.

[00:56:31] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:56:31] Justin Morseth: I can’t let, I can’t let everyone down now at this point, no matter how bad a read it might be.

[00:56:37] Scott DeLuzio: I, I’m, I’m, ~uh,~ I’m, I’m holding you to it now, so, ~uh,~ I, when it,

[00:56:41] Justin Morseth: Boy,

[00:56:41] Scott DeLuzio: it, when it’s finished, I, I definitely wanna

[00:56:43] Justin Morseth: you know, it’s stuff like this that keeps me going though,

[00:56:45] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:56:46] Justin Morseth: I really appreciate you, you know, having me on. I’d love to have– And I’ve got a friend that he’s the professor at IU. He’s an Army infantry officer, and he’s got a very, ~um,~ unfortunate moral injury story. He

[00:56:57] Scott DeLuzio: Okay

[00:56:58] Justin Morseth: a JSOC commander in [00:57:00] Afghanistan, ~um,~ and he’s got a really good story.

[00:57:02] But he’s a professor that I work with at IU. I can give you his information if you ever

[00:57:07] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely

[00:57:08] Justin Morseth: one that, he’s the one that coordinates, and he’s really trying to launch this out into the civilian, you know, agencies, not just IU

[00:57:15] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Yeah. I’d, I’d love to have a chat with him. ~Um,~ but, but Justin, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really, really appreciate it. I re- appreciate you sharing your story. I know it’s not always easy to, ~uh,~ you know, talk about some of these things, but, you know, coming on and, and being vulnerable and, and opening up and sharing these things is, ~uh,~ you know, hopefully a way to show other folks that it, it’s okay to talk about these things and, ~uh,~ that, that you can do it too.

[00:57:36] So, ~um,~ thank- thanks again and, and also for all the, the work that you and your, your wife are doing with the Pets Healing Vets. I, I think that’s, that’s pretty awesome too, and, ~uh,~ you know, thank- thanks so much for everything

[00:57:47] Justin Morseth: Thanks, Scott. I appreciate it

The battlefield can end while the consequences continue unfolding for years.

Justin Morseth recounts serving as an infantry officer with the 3rd Infantry Division during the 2003 Iraq invasion. He describes the sandstorm that stalled their advance, the losses suffered before reaching the enemy, and the crossing at Objective Peach under artillery fire, heavy smoke, and confusion.

Returning home brought a different struggle. Everyday civilian concerns felt difficult to understand, while memories of the invasion followed Justin into his career, marriage, and the birth of his first son. He explains how moral injury differed from the way he understood PTSD, especially as he considered the lives lost on both sides of the war.

Justin also shares his experience with traumatic brain injury, seizures, and medical care. He recounts being dismissed as a drunk by a VA neurologist before his wife helped him obtain further testing that, according to Justin, showed damage to his brain.

Treatment at After the Impact and prolonged exposure therapy with Dr. Heidi Knox pushed him to stop hiding behind anger and self-protection. Justin credits his willingness to become vulnerable with helping him reconnect with the person he wanted to be.

That experience now informs his work with Pets Healing Vets. Created by his wife, Megan, the program works with the Hamilton County Humane Society to match veterans with shelter animals while covering food, veterinary care, and other expenses throughout the animal’s life. Justin shares how one pit bull named Princess spent seven years in a shelter before being paired with a veteran who was also struggling.

The moments below follow Justin’s path from Objective Peach through moral injury, medical setbacks, vulnerability, and a new mission supporting veterans and shelter animals.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Scott DeLuzio: Coming home can leave you with a job, a family, and a life that looks fine from the outside, while the structure, identity, and sense of purpose that you had in the military feel like they disappeared overnight. That isolation can get dangerous when meaningful connection is missing and people only check in after something has already gone wrong.

[00:00:21] Our guest today, Army veteran Sean Dillard, knows that struggle personally. After years of feeling disconnected, an injury and a period of heavy drinking pushed him into one of the darkest moments of his life. What helped pull him forward was connection, family, service, and eventually a rowing mission built around giving veterans a reason to show up for one another.

[00:00:42] In this episode, you’ll hear why Sean puts so much value on everyday connection, how his son became part of the mission, and why he encourages veterans looking for purpose to connect with communities that already exist. Before we get into this episode, though, I’d like to take a moment to raise awareness for the Global War on Terrorism [00:01:00] Memorial Foundation.

[00:01:01] This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington, D.C. to honor the service members, families, and civilians who are impacted by the global war on terrorism. This memorial will be both a tribute to those who served and a way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come.

[00:01:17] If you’d like to learn more or find out how you can support their mission, visit GWOTmemorialfoundation.org. Now, let’s get into today’s episode.

[00:01:25]

[00:01:38] Scott DeLuzio: Hey Sean, welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here.

[00:01:42] Sean Dillard: ~Uh, ~super excited to be here.

[00:01:43] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. ~Uh, ~hey, ~um, ~for the listeners who may not know about you yet, ~uh, ~would you mind taking a minute just to introduce yourself, talk, talk through your, you know, army service and, you know, kind of what, what led you to where you are today?

[00:01:56] Sean Dillard: ~Uh, ~so my name is Sean Dillard. ~Uh, ~I’m an army veteran. I served from [00:02:00] 2006 to 2011. ~Uh, ~including a deployment to Iraq. ~Um, ~I was, ~uh, ~stationed in Germany for about two years, ~uh, ~or almost two years. And then, ~uh, ~went to Iraq and then went back to Germany and then came out and did a little stint of the National Guard for a year from 2010 to 2011. ~Um, ~so yeah.

[00:02:21] Scott DeLuzio: Cool. Cool. And, ~um, ~so we’re gonna kind of jump into, ~uh, ~talk about your, your, ~uh, ~work today that you’re, you’re doing now and, and all that, but. Just kind of as a, you know, I guess general background information, ~um, ~when you’re looking at the veteran mental health and suicide prevention programs and all those kind of things that are out there today, what do you think people outside the veteran community often misunderstand about Things like, ~uh, ~you know, isolation purpose, the, the things that continue to affect veterans after service.

[00:02:51] Sean Dillard: So, you know, I, I think the biggest misunderstanding is that people assume that war ends when they just come home. ~Um, ~[00:03:00] the, the truth is many veterans lose more than a job when they leave the military. ~Uh, ~they lose their structure, ~uh, ~their identity, purpose, you know, sometimes it who understand them best and, ~uh, ~you know, isolation is incredibly dangerous. you know, most veterans don’t wake up wanting to die, but they wake up leaving. Nobody would notice if they disappear. And I think that’s a huge difference.

[00:03:27] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:03:28] Sean Dillard: So.

[00:03:29] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And, and that’s, that is a huge difference. And, ~um, ~you know, oftentimes when you’re isolated, like you’re saying that you’re, you’re not really. Paying that close attention to the, the people who might, ~uh, ~be affected by your absence or, or the lack of your presence. You know, if you, if you did go that route.

[00:03:48] So, ~um, ~you know, you’re, you know, very often in your own lane and you’re not really thinking too, too much outside of that, that area. And it, ~uh, ~you know. Then it just becomes, ~uh, ~you know, kind of starts to feel a little bit [00:04:00] hopeless. I, I think, anyways. And, and it, ~uh, ~makes, it, makes it a lot, ~uh, ~a lot harder on, on the person.

[00:04:04] And, and when you have that kind of community, ~um, ~around you, you got, got folks around you, then there’s, there’s something to wake up for. There’s other people there. That, that you can, ~uh, ~you know, kind of be around and stuff. But, you know, that’s, I, I know that those are general, ~uh, ~you know, terms, it’s not, that’s not the, the case for every single person.

[00:04:21] ~Um, ~you know, I, I don’t wanna, you know, paint this with a broad brush or anything like that, but, you know,

[00:04:25] Sean Dillard: I don’t.

[00:04:26] Scott DeLuzio: know, you did bring up some good points there.

[00:04:27] Sean Dillard: Well, and I, and don’t believe that, and I, I feel you can almost kind of, can do a little bit of a broad brush

[00:04:35] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:04:35] Sean Dillard: comes to connection. ~Um, ~the research that I’ve done over the last three years, you know, the significant difference of the, the impact of veteran suicide rates to, ~uh, ~what they are today. ~Uh, ~and they found one thing that was very, ~uh, ~very lacking in the, the situation of. The veterans who were part of a community were less likely to commit suicide than those that were [00:05:00] not. And

[00:05:00] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:01] Sean Dillard: know, being a part of a community, meaning that you’re having this connection, you have people that you’re talking to, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re, you’re, they’re talking to them about, you know, you problems or your issues or anything like that.

[00:05:13] It’s just a matter of, Hey, how you doing? What’d you have for dinner last night? You know,

[00:05:18] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:05:19] Sean Dillard: little things right there. Just remind people. That somebody cares about them and not just, you know, you know, the one thing that I struggled with a lot of times is when I had my, my moments of darkness and everybody’s like, are you okay?

[00:05:32] And then, you know, that’s when it really felt like, okay, well they only care about me when I’m in my moment of need. Like where is the care for me when it’s not those moments? And that’s where we’re

[00:05:44] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:05:44] Sean Dillard: our connection with people.

[00:05:46] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that’s that’s a good point. Yeah. ~Uh, ~I hadn’t, you know, thought of it about it that way. And, ~um, ~you know, I, I think, ~um, ~yeah, connection I think is, is huge. And we don’t value it as much as we probably should [00:06:00] sometimes. And, ~uh, ~you know, that, that could lead to some problems. So, ~um, ~you know, I know a lot of, a lot of times veterans transition out of the military, they, they feel like they lost their purpose and, ~um, ~you know, they.

[00:06:09] Their, or their, ~uh, ~that comradery or, you know, all the things that, that veterans tend to tend to lose when they get out. But, ~um, ~you talked a little bit about your own experience, ~um, ~but ~um, ~from, from your experiences, maybe even from the work you’re doing now, what are some things that, that veterans can do to start rebuilding their sense of purpose after getting outta the military?

[00:06:28] Sean Dillard: Well, well, you know, and that it’s interesting that you put it like that because. It took me 20 years to figure out my purpose. ~Uh, ~when I left out in the military in 2011, I mean, I was on autopilot. I mean, I was jumping from job to job, ~um, ~you know, and it wasn’t the lack of, you know, doing a good job at those places.

[00:06:47] I, I honestly, I started getting bored after being there for so long. ~Uh, ~I did the best that I could, and I’m just like, what’s next? And just, you know, I kept doing that over and over again and, you know, it was about. Two [00:07:00] years ago, I met a group of guys, Rangers Row, ~uh, ~you know, reached out to me and said, Hey, you know, ~uh, ~I, I run my, ~uh, ~my shirt, company shirts for vets. And so they reached out to me and they said, Hey, we need to see if you could donate some shirts. And I’m like, I can’t do that. I, I was an over the road truck driver running this business in the back of my semi, so it’s like I didn’t have the means to do that, but I was like, well, but I can, I can set you up a, a storefront.

[00:07:25] And so I did that. and then just in that alone, ~uh, ~I started going, or every week they would have a weekly meet team meeting, and they would have me on the meeting with them. And here’s four, two of ’em were Army rangers. Well, I think all of ’em were, excuse me. All of them were army rangers. And then two of them were also Special force guys. ~Um, ~I was just a specialist. I, I worked on night vision goggles when I was in the military, so it was like. This was just cool in its own self being,

[00:07:56] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:07:57] Sean Dillard: connected with these kind of guys. But [00:08:00] I started getting that camaraderie again just by having that connection with them. ~Um, ~and then it evolved. It went from, being, ~uh, ~their shirt guy to, ~uh, ~one of their rowers couldn’t do it.

[00:08:13] They asked me to be a part of it. And you know, at first I told ’em hell no. ~Uh, uh, ~oh, it, so it, their mission was they were rowing across the Pacific Ocean from California to Hawaii. So

[00:08:24] Scott DeLuzio: Okay,

[00:08:25] Sean Dillard: hell no at first.

[00:08:26] Scott DeLuzio: sure. That’s, that’s, that is a big, ~uh, ~endeavor to, to jump into,

[00:08:30] ~um, ~

[00:08:30] Sean Dillard: yeah,

[00:08:31] Scott DeLuzio: anybody, you know, even if you’ve been doing that forever, you know?

[00:08:34] Sean Dillard: so, you know, we ended up getting that moment and that’s just, that started building my purpose, but then, you know, it. There’s been a lot of things that have happened since I started that endeavor. You know, I, ~uh, ~changed and ended up, ~uh, ~getting injured during training. So I, I wasn’t able to do the row with them. I started going back down another dark path. ~Um, ~I almost committed suicide, ~uh, ~last year because of it, because I felt like I let everybody down [00:09:00] and then I was like, you know what? It’s, you know, it’s not about an epic adventure. It’s about can we make, you know, this purpose-driven. Thing again, and it doesn’t necessarily need to be an ocean crossing.

[00:09:13] It doesn’t need to be, you know, a 5K run. It just needs to be something connects veterans with veterans and it doesn’t even need to be just veterans, people that support veterans. Just making those connections, I think is what saves lives. I really do. And.

[00:09:31] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And yeah, even outside of the military community, you know, just having a, ~uh, ~a hobby or something that you’re involved with, ~uh, ~you know, maybe it’s a running group or a, you know, some other activity that you’re, you’re into and, and you just have those people in your life. They don’t necessarily have to be veterans.

[00:09:46] They, they could be anybody really, right.

[00:09:49] Sean Dillard: Exactly. I mean, it, it’s, but they just need to know that, you know. ~Uh, ~connections are there to make that happen. ~But when we do, you know, when we do have these connections with our com, with our military brother, I can’t even say the brotherhood and sisterhood that are veterans. Um,~ when we make those connections with each other, ~uh, ~I think it really [00:10:00] helps out a lot because we understand what each of us are going through.

[00:10:03] We understand. You know, what we went through with the service and whether, and, and the biggest thing is, and the misconception too, a lot of people don’t think about is there’s a lot of veterans out there that have never been to war that struggled just as bad. they, they went into the military with the mission in mind. They’re serving their country. They’re, they’re doing their part, and then they get out and they’re kind of just on the same like as with me on autopilot. No, I, I, I went, I was to Iraq, but. I was one of the lucky ones that came home. you know, and that kind of, that got to me a lot throughout my whole entire, you know, civilian life, you know, as I felt like I wasn’t a real veteran. ~Um, ~I felt like I didn’t do enough because I didn’t get shot, or, you know, I didn’t do this or I didn’t do that, and, you know, and it just, it, it weighs on you. And you know, and we just, we’ve got to look at the bigger picture that it’s not [00:11:00] just PTSD that are struggling and there’s a lot more out there, and it all comes down to making that connection with each other.

[00:11:08] And that’s, again, that’s how we save lives.

[00:11:12] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. ~Um, ~I wanted kind of switch gears just a bit, well, not, not entirely switching gears here, but I, I wanna talk about, ~uh, ~the, or some odyssey, ~uh, ~the, the organization that you were talking about before. Tell us a little bit more about, ~uh, ~kind of what they, their, ~uh, ~kinda mission is and, ~uh, ~do you have a, a.

[00:11:28] ~Uh, ~pretty big adventure coming up, ~uh, ~you know, coming in the, ~uh, ~near future here. So tell us a little bit about that and, and, ~uh, ~you know, kind of what, what the organization all about.

[00:11:36] Sean Dillard: So, yeah, and, and I, I forgot to touch on it, but yeah. I’m, I’m the founder of the, the Southern Illinois Veterans Foundation and, ~uh, ~through our flagship mission or some, or some odyssey, we’re using it as an adventure. ~Uh, ~community and or a purpose to help veterans reconnect with life. ~Um, ~our mission isn’t just to row a boat, it’s to remind veterans that they’re [00:12:00] not alone and to build a community that keeps them from reaching the edge. And so, or some odyssey, you know, originally, ~uh, ~me and my son, which he’s 11 years old, Aiden, like I, I had talked about before, you know, I almost committed suicide. It was last February is when it happened. And that was because, ~um, ~that was right around the time when I got injured and I had to have surgery, and I started drinking again.

[00:12:28] Real bad. Well, not again. I mean, I never really drank bad before, but I started drinking real bad and I got, I started spiraling out and it was, it was bad.

[00:12:42] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:43] Sean Dillard: But, ~uh, ~I had a, ~uh, ~service dog, well, a service dog in training, five-year-old month pup, ~um, ~serenity. She, ~uh, ~she stamp me out of it in the midst of my darkness. ~Um, ~and then after that I just, I kind of woke up and I said, you know what? Enough’s enough. I gotta stop [00:13:00] feeling sorry for myself. I gotta stop doing this, so what’s the next thing? And I just got to thinking about it. I’m like, you know what? I was so surreal and at peace when I was out on the water training. That like, we’re gonna figure out how to get back out there. So I started reaching out, went and borrowed a boat from a buddy of mine. ~Uh, ~started doing a little bit of fundraising, ~uh, ~to get to go towards our mission. My whole idea was, you know, I was gonna row across the ocean because that’s what I missed out on, and I was gun dead set on doing that. And then. Along the way, my son Aiden, he was helping me out with doing the fundraiser. ~Uh, ~we had the boat set up at our town, ~uh, ~town and Country Days Fair. ~Um, ~people coming by talking about it, and you should have seen him. He is up there, he is telling everybody about the different things of the boat and everybody kept asking him.

[00:13:53] He is like, so you gonna do this row with your dad? And he is like, no, but I want to. [00:14:00] And, and being so young, you know, I, you know, I was cautious about that. I didn’t really think it was probably a good idea. But then, you know, we started talking with somebody else and he is like, why not by the time you go to do the row, you know, he is gonna be older.

[00:14:14] So we were originally planning on doing it and, ~uh, ~20, 20, 28 is when we were planning on doing the row. So that would’ve put him at 13 years old and like, okay. And then. You know, miraculous thing happens. ~Uh, ~plans kind of shift we, ~uh, ~we ended up going down to Florida, me and Aiden, ~uh, ~we went and met with a good friend of ours, Paul, Lori. ~Uh, ~he’s rode across about every ocean that there is, ~uh, ~multiple times. ~Uh, ~he’s actually out on the water, ~uh, ~crossing from, ~uh, ~new Finland to, ~uh, ~the UK right now.

[00:14:49] Scott DeLuzio: Oh wow.

[00:14:50] Sean Dillard: having a wonderful time doing that. So, ~uh, ~anyway, when we met with him, you know, he had his, ~uh, ~cautions about Aidan being so young [00:15:00] and, you know, as a parent I do too. Being very young and crossing an ocean, you know, is pretty dangerous.

[00:15:07] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:08] Sean Dillard: And so he put the idea in our head about doing the Great Loop. And so, you know, the Great Loop is the American waterways, ~uh, ~from Chicago down the Illinois River, Mississippi. Through the Gulf down around Florida, then up the eastern coast, up through New York, the Hudson, through Canada, the Great Lakes, and back to Chicago over 6,000 miles. So after he put me on this idea of that, and he said this would be a good way for one, didn’t be able to train and learn how to do the ocean rowing and stuff like that. It’d be good practice for the both of us. ~Um, ~not only that, if something were to happen. We’d be a stone throws from the beach edge to be able to get help.

[00:15:52] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:15:53] Sean Dillard: if we’re rowing across an ocean and something happens, help may not help, may not arrive [00:16:00] for days. So, so I’m like, okay, you know what? You’re right. That’s a good idea. Let’s do that. And then I’m like, you know what? I wanna build on that. this feels like this is meant to be. Because not only though, now. We’re gonna do this, we’re gonna be so close to, to everything. We’re gonna have more exposure to bring more eyes on our mission. But then I’m like, you know what? That’s not good enough for me. I’m like, I don’t care about that. You know, I, I was on another podcast and before we got on the podcast, we were kind of talking and they had mentioned something about how people always kind of use that moniker. In veteran suicide. In veteran suicide. And a lot of people will do it and they’ll do this mission, they’ll do this ruck march and all that. But like, how are you actually ending veteran suicide? And I’m like, you know what? That’s a good question. Like we can [00:17:00] raise all the money in the world and we can help pay for service dogs and we can do this and do that.

[00:17:05] We can bring eyes on it, we can talk about it. And that’s a great step in what we’re trying to do, and that’s what we need to do and that’s what we’ll continue to do. But how can we even do it even further? And I said, you know what? I know what this row has done for me. I know what being out on the water has done for me.

[00:17:24] So now what we’re gonna do is we are gonna be bringing veterans along with us throughout the entire journey. every week, veterans will come on and row the boat with us and swap out every week. And so that way we’re building connection.

[00:17:41] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:17:41] Sean Dillard: that camaraderie again. You know, we’re gonna give them purpose after service is what I’ve been saying. And I, I really feel like that’s our way to help end veteran suicide. And, and, you know, not every veteran is gonna be affected by this stuff. Like, ~uh, ~I will, but I know that [00:18:00] there’s at least one out there, if not more. And if we can make that impact with them, then that’s good enough for me.

[00:18:08] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and you know, with any effort towards, you know, vent, veterans mental health or suicide prevention or all that kinda stuff, I think everyone starts off thinking, Hey, if I can, if I can help one person. You know, it’ll be mission accomplished. I know, I, I started that way thinking with, ~uh, ~the, this podcast, you know, if I can reach one person and one person is listening and, and one person gets to stick around till tomorrow and you know, then the next day and the next day after that and, you know, continues, ~uh, ~then.

[00:18:38] Mission accomplished. But you know, as time goes on, I, I think you’ll start to find that it’s gonna be a hell of a lot more than just one person who gets help from this. You know? ~Uh, ~yeah, sure. The, the folks who are, ~uh, ~participating will obviously get some benefit from it, but there’s gonna be other people who are on the sidelines kind of watching this, this happen as well.

[00:18:58] And, ~uh, ~I, I. [00:19:00] In my opinion, I think they’ll, they’ll probably get some benefit too, because they’ll, they’ll see that, hey, the, these other people can go and do something too. ~Um, ~you know, they’re, they’re just like me, you know, they’re, they’re the type of people I can see myself as that type of person. And, ~uh, ~you know, maybe I’m not in the, the shape to go, you know, rowing as, as long as those people are.

[00:19:19] But, ~um, ~you know, maybe. You know, I can do that too. Or, you know, something like that. And so, ~um, ~you know, it’s just interesting to see how, ~uh, ~the ripple effect, you know, starts helping o other people down the line too, that you may not have even thought of at this point. You know?

[00:19:33] Sean Dillard: Well, we’ve, you know, we’ve, ~uh, ~we’ve set the boat up and we’ve gone and we’ve talked to a lot of different people and been, you know, spreading our mission as much as we can. And I, and I run into a few older gentlemen, which I can tell you right now, there’s a lot of old people that row across the, the oceans.

[00:19:50] ~Um, ~frankly, Paul Lori, he is not a young kid anymore. ~Um, ~and he is still, ~uh, ~rowing across oceans. So age is just a number, you know, it’s a, it’s a mentality [00:20:00] thing, but that’s not even the, the biggest thing. If there’s a veteran who wants to come and row with us and is maybe not in the best of health, or, you know, may not be able to put all their weight into it, I’m not gonna tell them, no, you can’t get on this boat. ~Um, ~we’ll figure something else out. I mean, it, we just might row a little bit slower. You know, there’s three rowing positions. It doesn’t necessarily always have to be three rowers, rowing. ~Um, ~you know, so we’ll figure something out. I’m, I’m gonna make that connection and I’m not gonna tell a veteran no. ~Um, ~unless I absolutely have to.

[00:20:35] Scott DeLuzio: right, right. Absolutely. ~Um, ~and with some of folks, ~um. ~Being a little bit on the older side. Age is just a number that, that type of thing, these endurance events, I think, ~um, ~you know, really get to, ~uh, ~you know, someone’s mental and emotional state. You know, kind of, you gotta be kind of mentally tough.

[00:20:53] You can’t just, you know, wanna, ~uh. ~You know, ah, this is getting a little hard and, you know, just, just quit. Especially when you’re doing something like crossing the [00:21:00] ocean there, there’s no quitting. Once, once when you’ve gotten to that, you know, halfway point, there’s, there’s no going back. You’re, you’re gonna continue, you know, one way or the other.

[00:21:07] So, ~um, ~how has preparing for this, this type of row, ~uh, ~shaped the way you think about things like resilience and discipline and all that kind of stuff?

[00:21:16] Sean Dillard: I think preparing for something like this, it, it really teaches you kind of, ~uh. ~Humility And, and I say that because you can, you can get stacked up and racked up, you know, or I don’t even know how to put it. You know,

[00:21:33] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:21:34] Sean Dillard: galore and you can do all the preparations in the world for this. And I mean, there’s so much that goes into with all the training that you have to do not, and not just physical, but also mental training.

[00:21:47] That you have to prepare yourself for this stuff. You know, like, ’cause when we go out, like me and Aidan, we’re gonna be gone for two and a half months living on the water, just the two of us. And we will swap out with other people constantly. [00:22:00] But we’re gonna be the two common denominators, so we’re gonna have to get over being together for so much. ~Um, ~you know, but, but there is so much more to it that the reason why I say humility is because, you know, I’ve seen grown men. Break down, ~um, ~when they’ve done these things. I’ve seen Navy Seals that have locked themselves away in their rooms, you know, on the cabins when they’re crossing over. So, you know, I, I’m gonna try and prepare myself as much as I can, but I’m also gonna be prepared to say whether or not, you know, I’m having a tough time today.

[00:22:34] I need a break. And just like anybody else.

[00:22:38] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, no, that’s a good point. ~Um, ~and, and knowing when to ask for help or at least ask for, ~uh, ~you know, a little bit of leeway, you know, if you need to take a break or something like that, like what you’re talking about. But, ~um, ~you know, you were talking about doing this alongside your son, which is a big thing to do, ~um, ~and.

[00:22:55] That father son aspect of this whole journey, ~um, ~is, is [00:23:00] probably taught you a, a bunch of stuff about, you know, mentorship, ~uh, ~being a, being a father, communication, passing on lessons and, and things like that to your son. ~Um, ~how has that, ~uh, ~kind of affected you and, and you know, and your son and your relationship?

[00:23:14] Sean Dillard: So this, this, this adventure. So I, you know, I had said before I was an over the road truck driver.

[00:23:27] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:23:27] Sean Dillard: I, I did it for about three and a half years. and a lot of times I was out for about a month at a time. So, you know. really a lot of my stuff in my kids’ lives. ~I’ve got~

[00:23:38] Scott DeLuzio: ~Hmm.~

[00:23:38] Sean Dillard: ~four, hold on.~ I got four kids now. ~Uh, ~we just adopted another, ~uh, ~another boy, ~uh, ~just last month. So yeah, so, ~uh, ~but eight in, whenever I come off of the road and I started getting involved with all this stuff. I mean, he was just to my hip. ~Uh, ~we were working and we were doing like Walmart deliveries. ~Uh, ~and doing DoorDash. And, [00:24:00] you know, he would come with me every, you know, every chance he got.

[00:24:03] And, you know, as soon as he got outta school, you know, is your homework done? Okay, I want to dad come pick me up. And so he spent all of his time with me. which is also another thing, you know, we kind of get sick of each other sometimes too, but, but one thing that really stuck with me throughout all this and started to where I was like. Really gung ho about him being a part of this is we were in Walmart one day and was having a bad day and I ended up getting into it with one of the cashiers over something stupid then inadvertently got into it with the manager over something stupid I was wrong. But you know, I was pretty stubborn and I just didn’t wanna admit I was wrong. ~Um, ~but you know, it was almost to the point where they were gonna ban me from. Doing Walmart deliveries and you know, it was like, there’s just [00:25:00] another thing that I screwed up, another thing that I ruined and another thing that, you know, how am I supposed to take care of my family being a loser that I am, you know, it was just building up

[00:25:09] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:10] Sean Dillard: and it was all around the same time of, you know, ~uh, ~not being able to do the row, you know, and all that stuff.

[00:25:16] And I mean, I just, I broke down in the middle of Walmart. I started bawling my eyes out and my son. He, he’s 10 years old, you know, at the time, and he is dad. It’s gonna be okay. It’s okay.

[00:25:36] Scott DeLuzio: It’s, it is amazing sometimes just the, ~uh, ~the, ~uh, ~the innocence of kids sometimes, but their, their wisdom too, you know? ’cause I mean, fast forward to now, he was right. You know, thing, everything’s okay. You know, you’re, you’re, it wasn’t the end of the world at that time. And, you know, you. You made it through and ~uh, ~you know, but sometimes you’re in that dark place and you, you just don’t see your way through.

[00:25:59] But, but [00:26:00] sometimes just listen to that little voice could be, could be a great thing. Right.

[00:26:03] Sean Dillard: Yeah, I mean, and I mean, it was just as something as simple as that, you know, it was like right after that, you know, I calmed down. ~Uh, ~you know, I went over, apologized to the manager about everything, you know, and everything was fine. And then we, you know, we moved forward. But you know, Aiden is such a remarkable kid at his age to wanna do something and he is, you know, he, he’s not doing this because he wants to be on TV or get a record or anything like that, is he really truly cares and wants to make a difference.

[00:26:39] ~Uh, ~you know, I I, I’m part of Rotary and he, ~uh, ~he loves going to the Rotary meetings with me. And he’s met a lot of cool people with Rotary. And he even got an award, ~um, ~through my Rotary program. ~Uh, ~another lady, ~uh, ~seen all the work that he was doing for the Row and put him in for, you know, what’s called a Paul Harris [00:27:00] fellow. ~Um, ~that’s one of the, the highest honors that you can get in Rotary. And here he is, 11-year-old boy getting a Paul Harris fellow. I don’t even have a Paul Harris fellow. Yeah.

[00:27:12] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And you know, as a, as a dad of myself, I, ~uh, ~whenever you see your kids doing something awesome and they’re achieving great things, it makes you feel good that you know that you’re. Your, your kids are doing these things, not just because, ~uh, ~you’re telling them to do them or, or anything like that.

[00:27:30] They’re doing it because they, they want to and they’re enjoying it, and Oh, yeah. By the way, they’re kicking ass at it too, and that, that just gotta feel good too. Right.

[00:27:37] Sean Dillard: They’re, they’re, but I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you the, the biggest, his biggest struggle is french fries. ~Uh, ~we, we talk about, he, he’s already trying to figure out how to freeze dry french fries for when we go do our row. I mean, I. I mean, there, there’s, you know, there’s moments that we get on each other’s nerves and there’s moments that I get, I, I have to get angry with them and I [00:28:00] hate being that way, you know, but I’m like, I love you kid.

[00:28:02] And you know, I know we act like we’re best friends, but I’m still your dad,

[00:28:06] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Right, right.

[00:28:07] Sean Dillard: so

[00:28:08] Scott DeLuzio: you know what, if he ever figures out the, the freeze drying of the, the french fries, I’m, I’m sure there’s some market there, you know, maybe even with NASA to, you know, get the, ~uh, ~the astronauts, some, ~uh, ~some french fries and, and a little comfort food up there in, in the space station.

[00:28:21] But, ~uh, um, ~you know, that, but that, that’s pretty cool. ~Um, ~so I wanna circle back to the, you you mentioned the Southern Illinois Veterans Foundation. ~Um, ~you know. You’re kind of working at the grassroots level, ~um, ~for veterans who might see a need in their own communities, you know, maybe outside of your area and things like that.

[00:28:36] But, ~um, ~they’re, they’re wanting to start something or they’re just maybe feeling overwhelmed by the idea of starting, you know, some sort of, ~uh, ~foundation or nonprofit, something like that. ~Um, ~you know, do you have any advice for those types of folks who are, ~uh, ~seeing a need but just don’t know where to start?

[00:28:51] Maybe, maybe a bit overwhelmed.

[00:28:53] Sean Dillard: ~Uh, ~I would say, you know, don’t, don’t go run out and start your own non-profit. ~uh, ~we only, we [00:29:00] only did it because we needed to have a, a fun, you know, to be able to do the row. ~Um, ~but it’s kind of evolved and it’s starting to be more than what we initially meant for it to be. But for everybody else, go out there, connect with of the American legions, the VFWs, ~um, ~you know, they’re not all bad, and I don’t mean that in a bad way, just. A lot of people get the, the notation that, you know, the American Legion or the VFW is just a bar and, and they’re not. ~Um, ~there’s a lot of ’em out there that really want to be more proactive. They wanna start doing service projects and stuff like that. ~Um, ~another avenue too is your DAV, ~uh, ~connect with them. ~Um, ~and then just look at what, just on Google. Hey, what veteran programs are in my area and. You know, you can start finding other ones. You know, that’s what I started doing when I got my, you my, my shirt business is shirts for vets. And, you know, I’m like, well, you know, I want to help out my veteran groups, you know, around here.

[00:29:57] And I just did that. And I just started, okay, well, [00:30:00] know, gonna help this people out. I’m gonna help these people out. And it’s amazing the different groups that are out there. And then you just gotta ask yourself, what do you wanna do? Do you want to help with the food pantry? Like me and Aiden, we, we help out with our, our local food pantry, which is not a veteran program, but it’s just our local food pantry.

[00:30:22] We help and rerun deliveries. ~Uh, ~every week we’ve taken a little break ’cause we’ve been gearing up for this row. But you know, that’s something that we did and it’s not even veteran related. I just feel like the more good you put out there, more you feel like you’re giving back. ~Um, ~and so that’s. You just gotta ask.

[00:30:42] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. And, ~uh, ~you know, I had a guest on the show years ago when I, I first started the show and I, ~uh, ~what he said kind of stuck with me is that, you know, when you’re able to help other people, it, it does something for you that. Really nothing else can, can do. Like, [00:31:00] if you can, whether it’s, you know, serving at a food pantry or, you know, any other way that you can serve, whether, you know, maybe it’s a veteran, maybe it’s something else in your community, whatever it is that you’re, you’re doing and you’re out there helping somebody else.

[00:31:12] ~Uh, ~it, it gives you like a, a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning, a, a sense of fulfillment, really, ~uh, ~that it’s really hard to get anywhere else o other than helping. Somebody else in, in that, that kind of way. You know, and it could come from anywhere, like you said, a food pantry. It could come from, you know, your church or you know, some other, or organization in your town or whatever.

[00:31:34] ~Um, ~you know, there’s all sorts of different places that you can find ways to help out, ways to help other people. ~Um, ~and it’s just a matter of. Figure out what is the right one for you? What, what’s that, that organization that maybe, ~uh, ~is helping the, the de demographic that you really are, ~um, ~you know, connecting with or, or whatever.

[00:31:52] And that makes you feel full inside when, when you’re able to help those people. And, and it’s an incredible thing when, when you do it. ~Um, ~you know, even, even this show, [00:32:00] you know, I started this show seven-ish years ago, and, you know, I’m doing it because I, I love helping out the, the veteran population with, you know.

[00:32:08] Raising awareness for organizations and things that are going on in our community. And, ~uh, ~you know, I, I’ve, every time I get on a show with another veteran, I, I just feel like, you know, it’s just another opportunity to learn a little bit about that person and, you know, what makes them tick and, and what have they struggled with and what, what are they doing.

[00:32:27] But it also, so it helps me in, in that way. But, you know, it’s also helping other folks. So, ~uh, ~you know, it’s, it’s just a, a, you know, great way to give back and there’s, there’s tons of ways to do it. ~Um, ~just gotta keep your eyes open and, and figure out where those, those things are. Right?

[00:32:41] Sean Dillard: Yeah. Well, and you know, another thing, and you know. Because I’m into so much stuff that I did, you know, I could never cover it all. But you know, I did speak on, on Rotary,

[00:32:53] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:32:53] Sean Dillard: I would say, you know, if you are looking to really give back and want to do something, [00:33:00] ’cause. You know, even as a veteran, you can still serve your community, still serve your country, and still have a purpose.

[00:33:06] And it doesn’t have to be military or veteran oriented to do that. And, you know, my work with Rotary has been really fulfilling for me. You know, we, we go out and we do service projects. ~Um, ~I just joined Rotary last year and now this year I’m the president of my rotary club. ~uh, ~don’t ask me about that one, but. But

[00:33:31] Scott DeLuzio: I.

[00:33:31] Sean Dillard: it. But, but I do, I do love it. And I am actually in our rotary district. We are actually trying to start, veteran focused, ~uh, ~rotary clubs that just work on veteran projects and, and stuff. So they’re, they’re veterans and veteran family members or people who support veterans are running those individual clubs. And so my whole kind of thing with that was kind of, there’s a [00:34:00] lot of people that when they leave the military, that have done some things that, you know, were justified still leaves a dark, dark hole in their soul, you know, or how they may

[00:34:14] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:34:14] Sean Dillard: and, and I feel like when you give back, that kind of helps to fill that hole a little bit, you know, even though, regardless of whether it was right or wrong. You know, they still feel morally that they did something wrong. And so,

[00:34:29] Scott DeLuzio: sure.

[00:34:30] Sean Dillard: I, I

[00:34:31] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:34:31] Sean Dillard: is a good avenue for that.

[00:34:34] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And, ~uh, ~you know, I’m not involved with Rotary myself, but I, I’ve known some people who were, and from the, ~uh, ~conversations I’ve had with them, the, the different types of, ~uh, ~you know, kind of community projects and other things that they do, it’s just, you know, kind of incredible, ~uh, ~all the, the work that they do.

[00:34:49] And, ~uh, ~you know, I, I think, ~uh, ~you probably don’t even realize all the, the work that that does go in too. You know, all those projects, but you might see things all around your town that were [00:35:00] worked on by folks in, in their, ~uh, ~you know, local rotary, ~uh, ~rotary club. And, ~uh, ~you know, they. They end up having, ~uh, ~you know, a whole, whole better, ~uh, ~environment to live in and work in and, and play in, and all the things that they do because of those, those folks.

[00:35:13] And it’s, it’s really great, ~uh, ~you know, and, ~uh, ~you know, it’s a lot of, a lot of work, but it, it helps out a lot of folks too. ~ Um,~

[00:35:19] Sean Dillard: yeah. And they’re, and they’re some of the most nicest people I’ve ever met. I don’t, I went to a, ~uh, ~a president-elect training, ~uh, ~seminar and, it was hundreds of people and, I mean, everybody was just so friendly and so nice. And these are people that you know, don’t judge you. They don’t care. who you are. ~Um, ~all they care is about the, the good that you can bring to the table. And that’s it.

[00:35:44] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. ~Um, uh, ~as far going back to the, or some odyssey, ~um, ~you know, as far as making sure that the attention, ~um, ~that you’re, you’re getting for is, ~uh, ~translating into the support that you’re, you’re looking for as far as, you know, veteran mental health program, [00:36:00] suicide prevention, all those kind of things.

[00:36:01] ~Um. ~I obviously fundraising is a big piece of it, but is there anything else that you want folks, ~uh, ~to be able to, ~uh, ~contribute or help out with, ~uh, ~you know, along the way for your, your, ~uh, ~you know, upcoming adventure that, that you’re gonna be doing? Or is there, ~uh, ~you know, what, what is the biggest need that you guys are looking for?

[00:36:17] Sean Dillard: ~Um, ~you know, our biggest need is really just really the support, just getting the message out there. ~Um, uh, ~you know, another thing is, you know, we do need to fill the slots on the boat. so we really do need to get it known out there to veterans that, hey, you know, you know. Come and get on this boat with us. you know, the whole training aspect of it I think is gonna be, ~um, ~pretty exciting. ~Um, ~what we’re gonna be doing is, so before we even do the row, you know, we’re gonna have about 20 veterans that are gonna do the first leg of it, right? so, a month before we start rowing, we’re gonna bring them all here to Southern Illinois. And I’ve already been thinking about this. We’re gonna throw ’em into a barrack situation. [00:37:00] And then do like a two week bootcamp of, you know, the boat and the operations of the boat and all that stuff. Get them on the boat. So they learned everything like that. But I got really super excited thinking about that because I’m like, you know what, how many of these guys kind of miss when they were at bootcamp, being able to sleep in the, in the, you know, in the barracks and just doing stupid things with each other, you know? So I’m really excited to be able to do that again too. So that’s a big thing, you know, and, and I feel like the more veterans that we have that are gonna be doing it, you know, that’s more communities that can get behind that veteran and their mission, you know, to be a part of this mission. So, you know, that’s a big thing. You know, we are looking for sponsors. We do need a, a lot of sponsors. ~Um, ~you know, I don’t, I hate making anything about money when it comes to nonprofits and, and this stuff, but you know, it’s the ugly truth. You have to have money to be able to. To do this stuff.

[00:37:56] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:37:57] Sean Dillard: to make it a very low point of anything [00:38:00] that we’re talking about, but we do need to raise about $160,000 for the first leg of it. ~Um, ~that covers, ~uh, ~the boat. The boat we currently is, ~uh, ~$65,000. ~Uh, ~we do have a boat. We do have the boat right now. ~Um, ~we were able to put a $5,000 down payment on it and make payments, ~um. ~For that. So that’s awesome. So we’re able to start doing a lot of training and a lot of fundraising and going to Vince with it. ~Um, ~and then the other avenue of it, we kind of figured out, ~uh, ~it’s gonna cost roughly about $5,000 for every veteran to come and do this row with us. ~Um, ~that’s to include their airfare, their food, while they’re here, ~um, ~their lodging, all that stuff, you know, so none of the, the, the idea is none of the veterans are gonna have to pay for anything. ~Uh, ~they come here. ~Uh, ~the only thing we won’t pay for is their knick-knacks. They want to get at paddy wax, but, you know,

[00:38:51] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:38:52] Sean Dillard: that, you know, we, we will cover everything else. ~Um, ~so that’s gonna be the first leg of it, and then the next year after that, you know, and then we’re only looking [00:39:00] at, you know, $50,000 every year, ~um, ~that we go to do it.

[00:39:04] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Well, for the, the listeners, ~uh, ~who are interested in, ~uh, ~supporting, I’ll have a link to, you know, websites and all that kinda stuff. So, you know, any, any, ~uh, uh, ~you know, support that they can give, whether it’s financial or other type of support, they can go get all the information that they need and all that kinda stuff too, ~uh, ~you know, from, from your website and, and all that kind of stuff too.

[00:39:24] But, ~um, ~you know, it’s. It’s a, a, a great cause. I think that’s why, you know, I wanted to have you on the show and talk about what you guys are doing and, ~um, ~it’s, it’s a different way of, of handling things too. I know you said, you know, when you were, when you’re out there on the water, you, you just kind of felt some relief from the, the darkness that maybe you had going on in inside of you.

[00:39:43] And, ~um, ~you know, I know a lot of times veterans go out and they, they try a whole bunch of different things. From different types of therapies to different types of activities and all that. And sometimes things just don’t click with them. And so I like to have people like you on who have done something a little bit different.

[00:39:59] I mean, rowing [00:40:00] is not super different, but it might be something that someone just hasn’t thought of as far as, you know, how, how can I help myself get out of this dark hole that I’m in? ~Um, ~and, you know, getting out on the water and, and doing that type of stuff might be the thing that that works for somebody.

[00:40:14] And so, you know, I, I wanted to, you know, obviously. Share about what you guys are doing and, and kinda raise awareness for that. But also just, you know, for somebody who wants to just go, go out there and, and do it on their own, just see how, how it works for them. ~Um, ~you know, maybe get involved with a, a club that does, you know, rowing in their, their area or, or something along those lines.

[00:40:34] That could be great too. And you know, it, you, you, you never know until you try it. And so I, you know, at least raising awareness for this ~could~ be the thing that helps, you know, push someone into that right direction and, and, ~uh, ~you know, get, get the, ~uh, ~type of activity that they, they’ve been desperately looking for.

[00:40:50] ~Um, ~so, ~um, ~as far as the website goes, ~um, uh, ~where can listeners go to find out more information about what you guys are doing and supporting the RO and, and all that other stuff?

[00:40:58] Sean Dillard: ~Uh, Orum OAR or excuse me.~ [00:41:00] O-A-R-S-O-M-E-O-D-Y-S-S-E y.org or

[00:41:05] Scott DeLuzio: Perfect.

[00:41:06] Sean Dillard: So like awesome. But with or in front of it.

[00:41:09] Scott DeLuzio: Perfect. And, ~uh, ~like I said, I’ll, I’ll have that link in the, the show notes for the listeners so that they can check that out. ~Um, ~make it nice and easy for ’em and, ~uh, ~you know, support the row, support the organization, share it, you know, with other folks to get, get the word out there. ~Um, ~yeah, check it out.

[00:41:24] ~Um, ~Sean, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really do appreciate you your time and, ~uh, ~your, your commitment really to the, the veteran, ~uh, ~community and, and. Leading by example, getting out there on the water and, and doing, doing the hard stuff, ~uh, ~to show other, other folks that it can be done too.

[00:41:39] So, ~uh, ~appreciate your, your effort so much.

[00:41:42] Sean Dillard: Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me today. This was, ~uh, ~really awesome. And just last thing I, you know, I just

[00:41:48] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:41:48] Sean Dillard: was, you know, at the end of the day, or some odyssey isn’t measured. By Miles Road, it’s measured by lives connected and veterans reminded that they are never alone.

[00:41:59] Scott DeLuzio: Absolutely. [00:42:00] And, ~uh, ~you know, I think we, we covered that and, ~uh, ~I, I’m hoping that that’s what folks take away from, from this episode. ~Um, ~that you’re, you’re not alone and there’s, there’s a lot of folks out there, ~uh, ~in your corner whether you realize it or not. So, ~uh, ~appreciate you again. Thanks so much.

Losing the structure and camaraderie of military life can leave a veteran feeling isolated even when everything appears normal from the outside. For Army veteran Sean Dillard, that disconnection lasted for years and eventually collided with an injury, heavy drinking, and a personal crisis that forced him to reconsider what purpose after service could look like.

Sean shares how reconnecting with veterans through Rangers Row helped restore a sense of camaraderie, and how his service dog in training, Serenity, and his son Aiden became part of the story that followed. What began as an idea to row across the Pacific evolved into Oarsome Odyssey, a mission under the Southern Illinois Veterans Foundation centered on connection, purpose, and bringing veterans together.

The conversation also gets practical. Sean explains why he believes ordinary, consistent contact can mean more than checking on someone only during a crisis. He discusses his own research into veteran suicide and community, while making clear that his conclusions come from his personal research rather than a cited academic study. He also encourages veterans who want to serve again to look at established groups such as the American Legion, VFW, DAV, and Rotary before starting another nonprofit.

Along the way, Sean talks about the injury that ended his original rowing plan, breaking down in a Walmart while his young son reassured him, learning humility while preparing for endurance challenges, and reshaping Oarsome Odyssey around the Great Loop. For veterans trying to rebuild purpose, the conversation offers a grounded look at how connection, family, service, and belonging can provide a place to start.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Scott DeLuzio: Leaving the military can be a tough transition. You might be carrying physical pain, survivor’s guilt, and wondering where your skills fit now that you’re out. The question becomes: What’s next for me? Where do you belong, and how do you keep moving forward? Our guest today, Dwight Boddorf’s story, is one of finding that answer the hard way.

[00:00:19] He went from being homeless at 16 to joining the Marine Corps, surviving a roadside bomb in Iraq, and living with years of lasting physical pain. After his service, he spent nearly a decade helping other veterans navigate benefits before stepping into local government. Along the way, he discovered that the same skills used in combat can make a real difference in small-town leadership.

[00:00:40] That experience eventually led him to write The Municipal Battlefield, a guide shaped by the real challenges leaders face during late-night emergencies. This episode is about surviving injury, finding purpose again, and realizing that even when things feel uncertain after the military, you still have a place and a mission.

[00:00:59] Before we begin, I [00:01:00] want to take a moment to raise awareness for something deeply important to our community, the Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation. This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington, D.C. to honor the service members, families, and civilians impacted by the global war on terrorism.

[00:01:19] This memorial will be both a tribute to those who served and a way to ensure their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come. If you want to learn more or find out how you can support the mission, visit GWOTmemorialfoundation.org.

[00:01:34]

[00:01:47] Scott DeLuzio: Hey, Dwight. Welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here

[00:01:50] Dwight Boddorf: Thank you for having me. I’m, I’m looking forward to talking with you

[00:01:53] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. ~Um, ~yeah, like we were talking a little bit before we started recording here and, ~um, ~you know, we have a lot to talk about, I’m sure, and we’ll, we’ll get [00:02:00] into, ~uh, ~the conversation in just a minute here. But before we do, could you, for the guests who… Or sorry, for the listeners who don’t know you and, and your background, ~uh, ~could you just give us a quick, quick, ~uh, ~rundown on, on who you are and, and who we’re talking to here?

[00:02:13] Dwight Boddorf: Yeah, I’d be happy to. ~Uh, ~my name is Dwight Boddorf So I live in the greater Pittsburgh area in Pennsylvania. I’m a Marine Corps veteran, served in Operation Iraqi Freedom. I was wounded pretty severely with a roadside bomb, so life didn’t quite pan out the way that I had planned. ~uh, ~pivoted from there, worked with veterans for a number of years, ~um, ~in government and non-government roles until it led me to my kinda current calling, which is municipal government. you know, I’ve lived in the Pennsylvania area most of my life except for when I was in the military, ~um, ~serving with 2nd Light Armored Reconnaissance out of North Carolina. I am a Stanford Hoover veteran fellow, where I’m focusing on figuring out pathways for service members who are [00:03:00] transitioning out of the service to get into local government roles, and a recently published author of “The Municipal Battlefield.”

[00:03:05] Scott DeLuzio: So you got a, a lot of plates that you’re spinning, and it seems like you, you have a lot, lot going on there. But, ~um, ~you know, let, let’s take it maybe a, a step back before you, you joined the M- the Marine Corps. ~Um, ~you know, what was life like then? What, what kind of led you to the Marine Corps, all that kind of stuff?

[00:03:22] Dwight Boddorf: ~Um, ~by happenstance certainly. ~Um, ~so my childhood was a little bit, ~um, ~unstable. You know, we, we moved around a lot. ~Uh, ~I ended up m- about half of my life, ~um, ~living with various relatives, things like that, grandma and grandpa.

[00:03:36] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm

[00:03:37] Dwight Boddorf: at the age of 16, ~uh, ~I became homeless, so I bounced around till I was 16, 17, graduated from high school, and the Marines came calling. ~Um, ~I’d actually thought I was gonna go to the Army first. That’s where I went to sign up, and the Marine recruiter called me and said, “Hey, you don’t wanna go there. We’ll give you a $50,000 bonus to come to the Marines.” And I was like, So that’s how I got into the Marine [00:04:00] Corps. ~Um, ~I was, you know, young, didn’t really know anything.

[00:04:02] I didn’t know what to research. I didn’t know what to look for, and I’m like, “Hey, you know, whatever sounds great, me up, you know. We’ll

[00:04:08] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:04:09] Dwight Boddorf: Ended up in light armored reconnaissance, and that’s kind of how all of that happened. So it really wasn’t a plan per se other than military something, just because for me it was a way out and a way to make sure that I had opportunities that I wouldn’t otherwise had, had I stayed in, ~um, ~my cur- my current situation

[00:04:27] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, ~uh, ~as a fellow infantry guy, I, I went Army, but, you know, that, as a fellow infantry guy, I g- I, I can probably attest to the fact that you, ~uh, ~probably weren’t expecting all the, ~uh, uh,~ the amount of time that you spent living outside in, you know, ~uh, ~you know, field exercises and, you know, deployments and stuff like that.

[00:04:49] Probably mirrored some of that homelessness, ~uh, ~situation that you mighta had,

[00:04:52] Dwight Boddorf: I was pretty

[00:04:53] Scott DeLuzio: going on.

[00:04:54] Dwight Boddorf: to it. ~Um, ~I, I will

[00:04:55] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:04:55] Dwight Boddorf: the thing that really surprised me the most is I think I never ate breakfast in the entire [00:05:00] Marine Corps when I was stationed in Camp Lejeune probably more than four or five times. You know, it was PT, there was training, there was… It there just simply didn’t exist

[00:05:09] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Yeah, and, ~uh, ~so it’s, ~uh, ~it just, you know, a, a new world and, and a lot of new stuff, ~uh, ~for you. But, you know, it probably, I, I would imagine, ~uh, ~you know, looking back at it now, ~uh, ~you probably learned a bunch of, of stuff about yourself, about, you know, life in general from your experience as a teenager, and then moving into the Marine Corps and kind of applying, applying those things and getting them, ~uh, ~kind of melded together, right?

[00:05:35] Dwight Boddorf: Oh, yeah. ~Um, ~things that I think looking back probably impacted me more than I realized, you know, as, as a teen.

[00:05:42] there’s a lot of lessons that they instill in you that you might not really realize what they’re doing, but it carries throughout your life. you know, y- you see a lot of other veterans joke about certain things that you can tell when somebody else is a veteran, you know, when they arrive early, the way that they’re dressed, some of

[00:05:58] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:05:58] Dwight Boddorf: I- it’s [00:06:00] true. They, they kind of beat those into you. ~Um, ~but there’s other things, right? You know, you learn how to work in a team. They give you some sort of skill set. They give you, ~uh, ~framework for things that you really wouldn’t otherwise think about, things that I’m still applying today in my job, that I’ve carried with me since the Marine Corps, and we can, you know, kind of get into that a little bit later.

[00:06:21] But it absolutely, for me, it was, ~um, ~life-changing in ways that I expected, but in a lot of ways that I didn’t expect. ~Um, ~coming from my background and providing me with a sense of bigger, stability, friendship, ~um, ~a place to sleep, things to eat, you know, it, it was a transformational time for me.

[00:06:40] ~Um, ~I had planned on making that my career

[00:06:43] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. And then you had mentioned, ~uh, ~you know, surviving an IED attack in, when you were in Iraq, and, you know, left you with a bunch of injuries and, and things like that. ~Um, ~tell us about kinda what happened there and, and what, how that affected you going forward. [00:07:00] What was, you know, maybe going through your mind during that time period?

[00:07:02] You know, w- were you able to finish your tour, ~uh, ~or, you know, what happened there?

[00:07:06] Dwight Boddorf: Yeah. So, ~um, ~I was only th- three months in, in, ~um, ~the Al Anbar province, which is kind of northwestern part of Iraq. so we were on a river sweeping operation, roadside bomb hit, ~um, ~killed two of my fellow Marines instantly, the rest of us. ~Um, ~I had some pretty serious, ~um, ~spinal damage, muscle damage, ~um, ~skull fracture, trauma-ti- TBI, all of those things.

[00:07:31] ~Um, ~so I was medevaced to Al Asad, where I spent about a good, I don’t know, month at Al Asad recovering. ~Um, ~from there, I actually went back to my unit and finished out my tour. ~Um, ~you know, I was in a little bit of pain, but I was in otherwise pretty good shape. I was 19. It was in the best shape of my life, you know.

[00:07:49] Hey, I just survived a bomb. ~Um,~

[00:07:51] I was like, you know, “I’m, I’m walking, things are good. It’s a little bit of back pain, I’ll be all right,” right? ~Um, ~so I finished out my tour, but the pain kept getting worse and worse and worse. And [00:08:00] by the time that I went back stateside, ~um, ~it got to the point that, you know, I had to go to the emergency room. and kind of like looking at me trying to figure out what’s wrong with you, and you explain to them this thing that just happened overseas, and they’re like, “Oh, that’s not normal. ~Um, ~let’s run some scans.” And so, ~um, ~story short, turns out I have some, ~um, ~serious nerve damage and, and muscle damage itself.

[00:08:21] So the force of the bomb physically forever altered some of my nerves and muscles, ~um, ~things that I’m still dealing with today that I’ve had to adapt my life with. As a matter of fact, I actually just had a, ~um, ~cervical rhizotomy yesterday on my C5, 6, and 7, and I will be back for my left side next week.

[00:08:39] And I have to get these done, six times a year just so that I can function. Otherwise, it would be constant pain management or like a internal pain pump. And it took

[00:08:51] Scott DeLuzio: Wow

[00:08:51] Dwight Boddorf: years and years and years and years to figure out how to even get to a point where the were, ~um, ~the [00:09:00] best thing for me.

[00:09:00] You know, I’ve tried every type of physical therapy and pain management and medication and, ~uh, ~self-reflection that you could think of. ~Um, ~and unfortunately, that doesn’t always but

[00:09:11] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:09:12] Dwight Boddorf: you have to keep going one day at a time and, and find something that does work, and that’s kind of where I’m at now. but it does impact me every day, ~um, ~in my work and my home life and things like that.

[00:09:22] ~Um, ~it’s, it has been a journey. This year will be 20 years, ~uh, ~on October 4th, after the, the bomb, and it’s, ~um, ~things that I still carry with me, not just physically, but, ~uh, ~emotionally and mentally as well, the, the service members and friends that I lost.

[00:09:36] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:36] Dwight Boddorf: ~Um, ~and you know, and how do you best live your life honoring those who didn’t make it?

[00:09:43] You know, that’s kind of been a, a driving force as well.

[00:09:47] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and that’s something I think a lot of veterans deal with, especially who’ve experienced something like you did. ~Um, ~you know, a lot of, lot of stuff going through their mind about the folks that they lost or the [00:10:00] experiences, ~uh, ~that, you know, could’ve gone one way or another if something else happened.

[00:10:06] And, you know, there’s a lot of what-ifs and, and all that kind of stuff, and I don’t think that those what-ifs are necessarily helpful. ~Uh, ~you know, they, they’re… You can just keep what-iffing the whole situation, but it doesn’t change anything really. And so, you know, we do that a lot to ourselves. I know I, I’ve done that to myself with stuff I’ve experienced.

[00:10:27] ~Um, ~I’m, I’m sure, you know, other, other folks have too. And, you know, ~uh, ~when, when you’re dealing with these things, you, you have to look at it like, “Okay, that happened. I can’t change it. What, what’s the next best thing that I can do going forward? How do I make the best of a bad situation?” And, ~um, ~you know, it’s not always easy when your, your brain is in that fog and, you know, you’re, you’re not really thinking 100% clearly.

[00:10:52] ~Um, ~and sometimes that, that fog lasts for a really long time. And, ~um, ~you know, but it’s, you kinda have to just keep reminding yourself, like, “What is that next [00:11:00] best thing? How do I make the best of whatever the situation is?” ~Um, ~but even, even, you know, after coming back home, after leaving the military, you know, just, you’re, you’re now dropped into a new world almost.

[00:11:15] You know, you’re struggling with, you know, your, your identity, your pur- sense of purpose, ~uh, ~figuring out what comes next as far as maybe a job or education or, or things like that. ~Um, ~in, in your case, what was your transition like? And w- and, like, where did you find your next mission?

[00:11:31] Dwight Boddorf: ~Um, ~I keep having a series of, like, happy accidents, I guess. ~Um, ~so I, you know, after that experience and after transitioning out, ~um, ~you know, kinda took my life plans from me, and not only that, now I’ve got all these physical disabilities and other things that I’m trying to deal with. And, ~um, ~I wanted nothing to do with, ~um, ~military veterans, any of that.

[00:11:50] I’m like, “Hey, I’m gonna use my GI Bill. I’m gonna go to school. What is the furthest thing that I can get away from, from Marines and the infantry?” Elementary education. [00:12:00] So that’s what I used my GI Bill for. But while I was in school, funnily enough, ~um, ~part of the GI Bill, they have a program called VA Work Study. And, ~uh, ~I was looking for extra money, you know, I was, I was young. ~Um, ~I was getting ready to have my first child. You know, any bit of, any little bit of money helped. So I ended up doing VA Work Study, which I worked in the financial aid office at Penn State, and this right when the new GI Bill came out, the post-9/11 in 2009. So they ha- they saw this influx of veterans into the school, and they didn’t know what to do with them. They didn’t know how to handle the GI Bill and things like that. So I found myself in this situation as a veteran and one of the first students there using the new GI Bill and working there, trying to help other veterans figure it out for my job.

[00:12:46] And that, I think, helped me in many ways and led me into a career path of helping veterans. ~Um, ~I didn’t realize at the time about, like, how much I needed that other piece of talking to other [00:13:00] veterans and not shying away from it, but actually leaning into it.

[00:13:03] And that turned out to be helpful to me in so many ways, not only from a personal perspective, but also for a career. So as my injuries continued to get worse when I went through school for elementary education, ~um, ~I had a hard time doing student teaching, ~um, ~getting up and down with the third graders, kneeling beside their desk playing kickball. Things were fantastic. I loved it, but physically it was difficult for me, more than I anticipated.

[00:13:28] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:28] Dwight Boddorf: ~Um, ~ so it really was not gonna be a long-term career option for me. I needed somewhere that I could probably sit and stand and move around as, as needed. Teaching wasn’t it, certainly not in elementary education. So I took the experience that I had in Veterans Affairs in higher education and actually took a Veterans Affairs job in a community college back here in Pittsburgh, and that’s really where my first career was in management in Veterans Affairs.

[00:13:54] And from there, I spent, you know, almost a decade working in various Veterans Affairs positions [00:14:00] and helping so many other veterans, but helping myself too, through the conversations, ~um, ~getting people access to higher education, VA healthcare, off the streets. We did a lot of things for homelessness, substance abuse, ~um- ~You name it, we, we did it across various things.

[00:14:19] ~Um, ~and it was just kinda one unexpected happy kinda accident after another that kinda led me to where I’m at now

[00:14:28] Scott DeLuzio: Sure, sure. And I know with, ~um, ~a lot of veterans getting out, ~uh, ~I, I forget what the exact numbers are, but I think within two years of, ~uh, ~getting out of the military, ~uh, ~about 80% of veterans have, ~uh, ~already moved on to another job for whatever job they, they moved on from, ~uh, ~after the military. They’re, they’re already on their second, maybe even more jobs, ~uh, ~something like that.

[00:14:51] It’s, it’s, it was a high number. It, I forget exactly the, the numbers. But whatever it is, the, you know, it doesn’t matter. It’s, ~um, ~it- the, the point is [00:15:00] that so many people get out not knowing what they’re, they’re gonna do with their lives, not having a, a good plan or, or getting into something that they absolutely hate and they’re like, “I can’t even stand this for, you know, a year or two.”

[00:15:13] ~Um, ~and so they, they leave and they go find something else. And, you know, I don’t know where those numbers, ~uh, ~you know, go to as far as, like, job hun- ~uh, ~hopping, going, going down the, the road. But, ~um, ~you know, in years three, four, five, six, you know, how, how many people f- finally land on something that they actually like.

[00:15:30] Dwight Boddorf: Yeah

[00:15:30] Scott DeLuzio: but something that you said is, ~uh, ~kinda important to think about is, you know, continuing to serve in a way, ~uh, ~you know, serving your fellow veterans, ~uh, ~i- is, is the thing that you found. And, you know, it doesn’t necessarily have to be at the VA or even a nonprofit that works with veterans. It could be serving in another way, serving your community, serving, you know, something that’s important to i- that individual, finding something that they can give back to and, and help improve.

[00:15:59] You [00:16:00] know, you know, you’re talking a little bit about, ~uh, ~municipal work and, and there’s, there’s stuff in every town and city across the country. There are programs out there that need, you know, people to, ~uh, ~to work these programs. And, you know, m- maybe it’s a veterans program. Maybe it’s a, you know, something with, ~uh, ~you know, animals or, or whatever the case may be.

[00:16:20] You know, you, you can find something somewhere along the way that, ~um, ~that is important to you and, and you feel like you’re, you’re contributing and you’re helping others, and you’re giving back in a, in a way that’s, it’s meaningful. It’s not self-serving in, in a way, you know? It’s, ~uh, ~you know, very similar to the military is it’s a big organization supporting the entire country, ~uh, ~that is, i- is a very meaningful and, and important job to have.

[00:16:46] ~Um, ~and then you just all of a sudden go into some menial nine-to-five job crunching numbers or, you know, you know, pushing papers a- you know, across a… It’s, like, kinda feels like you’re just wasting your time sometimes. And, ~um, ~not, maybe not for everybody, but some, some [00:17:00] jobs, you know, just feels like you wanna bang your head against the wall sometimes because it’s, it’s that bad.

[00:17:04] Dwight Boddorf: right. ~ Um, ~you know, I, I’ve, I’ve spoken with thousands of veterans over my career in various things, and almost– not all of them, you’re right, but a lot of them are looking for something a purpose. ~Um, ~and that could take a million different thi- you know, look a million different ways, but they still want that I’ve actually done something good and that you can tangibly see that I made a difference either in my community or my hometown or school or whatever it is, not just, you know, some arbitrary, ~um, ~paper to do a paper

[00:17:35] Scott DeLuzio: Right. Yeah, exactly. And, and so, ~um, ~you know, again, there, there’s a million different things out there that, that you can do. It’s, it’s just a matter of figuring out what is that thing for you. ~Um, ~you know, from your experience, you know, you, you said you talk with thousands of veterans, ~um, ~that, that’s probably a pretty good, ~uh, ~sample size for, ~uh, ~you know, some issues that people might be having, ~uh, ~you know, when they’re, ~uh, ~trying to navigate through the VA system, whether it’s for [00:18:00] education benefits or other, you know, types of things.

[00:18:02] Where do, where do people seem to get stuck the most, from your experience? And, and maybe what, what could be done better to help them in those situations?

[00:18:09] Dwight Boddorf: Ooh, that’s a good question. ~Um ~I’d say there’s a couple places. So They don’t always know where to go, and that kind of seems counterintuitive in today’s day and age when there’s billion different things on the internet. ~Um, ~but that’s also part of the problem, right? There’s a lot of good information, but there’s a lot of bad information out there.

[00:18:27] Everybody’s a, a veterans expert all of a sudden. You know, everybody’s a, a street lawyer for Veterans Affairs. ~Um, ~so it can be hard to figure out what’s true and what’s not true, where do you go? And then once you get there, like, who e- who helps explain it to you? Some of these things are fairly complicated. There’s a lot of steps, and if you mess up one or two of those steps, it could set you back months and/or years, in which then people get frustrated with that type of system. ~Um, ~they get disillusioned. They then opt out [00:19:00] altogether. ~Um, ~we saw this a lot with the Vietnam veterans. ~Um, ~many, many, many, many of them did not take care or did not get their benefits that they, that they had earned because they were treated so poorly.

[00:19:08] And now, you know, in their 60s, 70s, and 80s, they’re, they’re finally starting to come around to get some of those benefits that they

[00:19:15] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:19:16] Dwight Boddorf: time ago, but because they had such a bad experience with the VA and other places, they didn’t want anything to do with it. ~Um, ~younger generations are getting a little bit better.

[00:19:24] We’re getting, y- you know, a little bit more support from the VA and communities and higher education and employers. But there still needs to be, ~um… ~A lot of work has to be done to improve that. ~Um, ~a couple ways that we could fix it certainly is better coordination. There’s a lot of different moving parts in the veterans ecosystem. So in the Pittsburgh region, just for context, we, ~um, ~we have one of the largest veterans populations in, in the country. We are– Pennsylvania has the largest veterans population in the country without an active duty military installation. We have no place [00:20:00] that anchors the military and veterans community.

[00:20:03] We’re just kind of scattered to the wind. And so what

[00:20:05] happened is there was, like, 40 or 50 veterans nonprofits that all came up in the gaps there, right? And so now you’re getting out in the Pittsburgh region, and all of these places are competing against each other, and some may explain it well, some may not.

[00:20:23] So we have no place. You know, they’re, they’re not coordinating with each other. And then you throw on top of that county veterans directors, ~um, ~in Pennsylvania, the state veterans division, the federal veterans division. It’s a lot to navigate. And places don’t really talk a lot. You know, the federal VA, the state and the county occasionally, but there’s not a lot of coordination.

[00:20:45] And then if you take all three of those with the nonprofit sector and then the employment sector, there’s almost no collaboration. You’ll see a couple of pockets here, maybe an initiative here or there, but a sustained true collaboration doesn’t really [00:21:00] exist.

[00:21:00] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:00] Dwight Boddorf: ~Um, ~there are several ways that that could be fixed.

[00:21:02] Some things are being worked on at the federal level or the state level, but the end of the day, like anything else, it’s gonna take a group of veterans to come together and say, “Hey, we need to fix this,” and

[00:21:12] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:21:13] Dwight Boddorf: make it happen

[00:21:15] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And when, I, I, I remember getting the information for all the benefits that were available to me as I was leaving the Army, and it was like drinking from a fire hose.

[00:21:28] It, it was so much information, and this was back in 2011, ~uh, ~time, timeframe, so, ~um, ~you know, yeah, the information was probably available online somewhere, but we weren’t using the internet the way we’re using it today.

[00:21:40] ~Um, ~you know, e- even that, not, that’s not even all that long ago, but it’s still kinda crazy how we, how much more we’re using it today. ~Um, ~but it’s, it’s, ~um, ~you know, just so much information that you can only retain so much. They give you little pamphlets and flyers and all that kinda stuff that, you know, what, what do you do with those after you get home?

[00:21:58] You know, you put ’em in a drawer somewhere. You, you [00:22:00] lose ’em. You forget about ’em. They might get tossed or whatever. But y- you end up having so much information that you don’t, just don’t know what to do with it. And then once when you realize, hey, I’m, I’m kinda struggling with something, I, I need some help with something, I don’t even know where to look because I, I’ve got s- just so much information.

[00:22:19] Where, where do you even start? And so, you know, that coordination that you’re talking about, I think is, ~um, ~you know, it’s a big deal because, ~uh, ~like you said, that, you know, nonprofits might pop up and fill in some of those gaps. But, ~um, ~you know, you might have a, you know, a great idea for a nonprofit. I might have the same idea, and we’re in the same area, and we just start, start our own things, and now we’re competing against each other when really we’re trying to solve the same thing.

[00:22:41] If there was some sort of coordination, we kinda come together and maybe work together, that would be, you know, even better, and that, that’d just serve the, the interests of, of the veterans. But, you know, even on the, the government level, on the, you know, the local, state, federal levels, ~um, ~I, I’m sure there’s some overlap between what goes on with all of those organizations, too.

[00:22:59] And, and [00:23:00] so, you know, just coordinating all the resources and, and making it available to everybody in a way that’s easy to digest, ~um, ~so you know what’s available when you need it and, and maybe even have people who can ask the right questions, like, you know, “Are you, are you dealing with X, Y, or Z? Hey, the VA has a program that can help you with that.”

[00:23:21] And maybe you didn’t even know that that was a thing, but, you know, someone can maybe help

[00:23:25] Dwight Boddorf: There are a few

[00:23:26] Scott DeLuzio: you through that.

[00:23:26] Dwight Boddorf: that are, that are doing that, but it’s not, it’s not standard. So I could say like when

[00:23:30] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:23:31] Dwight Boddorf: when I ran the veterans division at the local community college, we actually ended up creating like– when we would bring people in the process their GI Bill, we would go through those things and say, “Hey, like, like are you having nightmares?

[00:23:42] Are you having

[00:23:43] PT– like have you, are, have you enrolled in VA healthcare? Did you know about your VA disability? Did you know about your military unemployment?” Like we had a, a laundry list of things to go down through and ask people to help them get connected with resources and sign up, but not the norm, ~um, ~at most [00:24:00] higher education facilities. but it’s gonna take everybody across every interaction doing something like that, the VA, the employers, the healthcare sector, the education sector, all of that, because, you know, s- veterans are so dispersed throughout every-everything, right? It, that you

[00:24:20] never know where they’re gonna end up, and so you just need one touch point to kinda grab them and say, “Hey, did you know about all these things, and this is where you need to go.”

[00:24:27] But getting to the point to reach those institutions to train them on what to look for and how to administer it, and how often the VA rules and regulation changes is, is very difficult. ~Um,~

[00:24:39] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:24:39] Dwight Boddorf: it’s a, it’s a very unique problem, ~um, ~that we’re getting a little bit better at every day, and hopefully in another 50, 60 years we’ll get there.

[00:24:50] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Well, ~um, ~you know, and it, it, it’s interesting too because you’re, you’re saying, you know, they’re, they’re, people are, you know, coming from all different walks of life [00:25:00] who are, are veterans. They, they might have all sorts of different, ~uh, ~careers, all sorts of different medical issues, all sorts of different geographies that they live in even.

[00:25:08] ~Um, ~and so they, they have so many different, ~uh, uh,~ combinations of things that, that are working with them or against them in some cases that it, it’s hard to just say, “Hey, here’s, here’s one, you know, ~uh, um, uh, ~one size fits all approach to everybody.” You know? So you, you really do have to have somebody who can understand what’s going on with this individual person, who, ~uh, ~what’s going on with, with A, B, and C, and, and make sure that we know that we’re giving them the right, ~uh, ~direction

[00:25:36] Dwight Boddorf: Yeah.

[00:25:37] Scott DeLuzio: whatever it is,

[00:25:37] you know?

[00:25:38] Dwight Boddorf: that’s, a lot of knowledge too, right? So you, you’re,

[00:25:40] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:25:41] Dwight Boddorf: talking, you know, healthcare, ~um, ~housing, ~um, ~education, ~um, ~economics. it’s, it’s very difficult to find somebody that has enough knowledge that can speak across all those domains,

[00:25:56] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:57] Dwight Boddorf: but also [00:26:00] pay these people appropriately.

[00:26:02] So there’s a

[00:26:03] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:26:03] Dwight Boddorf: that, you know, the, the VSOs and the organizations, they do a really great job. A lot of them, you know, they’re d- they’re volunteering their time and they’re doing these things, but they’re, they’re part-time VSOs who maybe just focus on one slice of the pie, ~uh, ~usually disability benefits.

[00:26:18] But then when it

[00:26:19] comes to all these other things, you know, who do they turn to for those? And there’s not really a good national system. Some states have state or county level veteran service officers that are trained in all of those things. ~Um, ~but the turnover there is pretty high. Pay isn’t that great. ~Um, ~you know, ~uh, ~there are a couple national solutions on the table about making sure that every state a county veterans director, ~um, ~as part of state law, and making sure that they’re funded appropriately so that no matter where you are in the United States, you always know that whoever your county person is, there’s at least one person close to you that can point you to all these other directions. ~Um, ~you know, that would be a [00:27:00] doable fix in our lifetime.

[00:27:02] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and a- as you were talking, I, the fix was kinda coming to me, thinking of it kind of like a, a contractor building a house or s- or something. That, you know, the, your one general contractor isn’t gonna necessarily be the plumber and the electrician and the drywall guy and, you know, the flooring, carpeting, all that kinda stuff.

[00:27:18] They’re not gonna be doing all of those things, but they coordinate with all those, those specialists who do all of those, those things. And it would be great if there was that one person that you can go to or, or, you know, one group of people, ’cause it may be a big, bigger job than m- any one person can handle.

[00:27:33] But, ~um, ~ you know, depending on the, the area. But, ~um, ~you know, if you had that one person you can go to who could then say, “Okay, ~uh, ~you need to go talk to this person for this issue, and that person and that person, and, and they’ll get you squared away,” because those are the people who are the experts on education, on disability, on, you know, all these other benefits, right?

[00:27:51] ~Um, ~and, and that would be, you know, ~uh, ~probably a, a great way to, to handle it because, you know, you get, try to get one person who’s an expert on everything, [00:28:00] and they’re gonna, they’re gonna miss on stuff.

[00:28:02] Dwight Boddorf: Oh, absolutely. Yeah

[00:28:03] Scott DeLuzio: especially with the, you said regulations changing. I didn’t even think about that at the beginning of this conversation, but they, they probably change all the time, and, you know, who’s, who has the time to keep up with all that, you

[00:28:13] Dwight Boddorf: you and I have gotten out, I mean, the G- so most people don’t realize there’s seven different versions of the GI Bill, it all depends on like when you, when you served, when you got out, and even when between you and I, there was post-9/11 GI Bill and then the Forever GI Bill, which, you know, it’s all post-9/11, but there’s a difference in your lifetime of benefits where post, post-9/11, we got 15 years.

[00:28:35] You got out after, I think, 2015, y- you get it forever. There’s no limit on your, ~um… ~So, you know, if you wanna use your GI Bill 40 years from now, you can do that, whereas if

[00:28:45] you got out in 2008 like me, you had 15 years from 2008 and that’s it. Like, the, the rules change all the time. There’s massive, ~um, ~bills going through Congress right now to have some of the most consequential veterans update [00:29:00] in ~Um,~

[00:29:00] and you know, you, you certainly have to keep up with all those things. There’s always changes for what disability is considered what percentage. There’s new programs that the states come out with. ~Um, ~there’s court cases, court rulings that determine, you know, how things are applied and may impact things retroactively.

[00:29:18] So it really is, ~um, ~a vast career field. When people say Veterans Affairs, there’s a m- many kind of pick a lane within Veterans Affairs. It’s kind of like being a doctor, right? Is

[00:29:29] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:29:30] Dwight Boddorf: but then you’ve got a surgeon, you’ve got ENT, you’ve got audiology. Veterans Affairs is a similar kind of space. ~Um, ~and, and so is a lot of things in government to, to be fair. You know, you might have somebody that specializes in services, somebody that does, ~um, ~you know, economic development, so on and so forth. So

[00:29:47] Scott DeLuzio: Sure, sure.

[00:29:48] Dwight Boddorf: problem

[00:29:50] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah

[00:29:50] Dwight Boddorf: that, ~um, ~I would encourage anybody listening to help us figure out.

[00:29:54] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, exact- well, that, that’s kinda why I wanted to go down that rabbit hole a little bit is because, ~uh, ~you know, hopefully [00:30:00] somebody’s listening out there, and maybe it’ll just trigger something in their head that it’s like, “Hey, there’s a solution that I, I just thought of,” ~uh, ~you know, as they’re listening to this.

[00:30:08] And, ~um, ~you know, maybe there’s, there’s some way that, you know, you and I are, and other people smarter than us have, have not thought about yet, and there, there might be j- just that one person out there who, who, ~uh, ~thinks of it. And, and maybe that helps streamline the whole process. That would be great. ~Um, ~but y- you know, going into…

[00:30:23] You’re, you’re talking about, ~uh, ~local governments and, and things like that. You- you’ve, ~uh, ~talked about it kind of as, ~uh, ~another type of battlefield. ~Um, ~you know, for veterans listening who might not think much about, you know, their local government, their, ~uh, ~you know, the town councils, the police, the f- the firefighters, all that kind of stuff, ~um, ~in your, your mind, w- how does, ~uh, ~the military, ~uh, ~skillset that you, you developed in the Marine Corps, ~uh, ~kind of apply to that local level, ~uh, ~and, and, or, or does it, you know, the, as far as leadership and all that kind of stuff?

[00:30:53] Dwight Boddorf: No, it does, and I think more than most people realize. ~Um, ~you know, the– We do a really good job [00:31:00] when military members transition to say, “Hey, you should take a federal job,” right? We get you veterans preference. You have all these skill sets that line up We’re starting to do that with state level jobs, but I would actually say it’s a better fit for the local jobs. ~Uh, ~the reason for that is they are more resource scarce. They are more in need of leadership. ~Um, ~ they need people who are flexible. So when people think of government, you typically think of bureaucracy, right? That you’re just drowning in all this paperwork and it’s slow-moving and all this stuff. been at federal, county, and local government, and some of that is true, when you get into the very lowest levels of government, your cities, your towns, it is much more fast-paced than people think. So my town where I’m at, we have a police department that we share with another town, so we’re running two towns for police. We run a water treatment plant and distribution system. We run an electric system. We have our normal, ~um, ~public works, so streets, storm [00:32:00] sewers, winter plowing, all of that other stuff. ~um, ~admin IT, and we just regionalized our EMS ambulance, plus firefighting. There is always something going on. There is, you know, there’s accidents, there’s fires, there’s involvement, there’s, ~um, ~funding, there’s community events. So the skill sets that a lot of veterans bring in, ~um, ~particularly when it comes to decisiveness and adaptability, ~um, ~super, super helpful in local government. Big government, you can sit and study a problem forever. You’ll, you’ll sit there for 30 years, you’ll make all the best plans in the world, and you’ll never execute.

[00:32:38] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:32:40] Dwight Boddorf: if, if you’re a veteran like me, that’s gonna frustrate you, right? Like I, I– Give me enough information, right? And veterans really excel at this. This is one of the things that you learn on the battlefield in the military, right? You don’t– You, you’re never gonna have all the information you need, but you know when you get enough information that you can make a good, informed decision. And a, you [00:33:00] know, perfect is the enemy of good in a lot of cases. And so coming into local government, maybe having 75% of the information, on that, and living with that decision and moving forward is really what is needed. Otherwise, things don’t get repaired. Your,

[00:33:15] your roads don’t get repaired, your EMS falls apart, all of these things. ~Um, ~veterans are uniquely good at executing with little information and being adaptable, too.

[00:33:26] ~Uh, ~I get pulled about 15 different directions in every day. You know, one minute I might be writing a policy, the next minute there’s, ~um, ~a fire. Forty-five minutes later, we’re looking at, ~um, ~economic development. Ten minutes after that, I get a call that the gas company hit a gas line and we gotta go shut down a road. And, and then after that, there’s a flock of geese in the road that is causing problems that nobody can move, right? It’s, absolutely wild. But it’s, ~um, ~it’s something that a lot of military members and veterans can thrive in because it kind of gives you that [00:34:00] mission of there are things to do and you’re doing good for your community. There are parts of it that are fast-paced. There are parts of it, ~um, ~that just really, really, really fit the veteran skillset for many, many, many service members

[00:34:13] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I could see that. As you’re talking about some of the challenges, I, I was thinking back to my deployment and the types of things that you had to do where you’re kind of thinking on your feet, where the situation changes and you have to adapt and make the, the, again, the next best decision that you can with the information that you have available to you.

[00:34:35] And, and sometimes it’s a real quick decision y- you have to make. You know, it’s a matter of, you know, seconds or minutes or, or so that you, you have in order to make that decision. It’s not like you can sit there for years pondering on, you know, what’s the best move to make here. ~Um, ~you know, you’re going to do the best that you can with the information that you have, and you’re gonna, you’re gonna move on and, and, ~uh, ~you know, it may not be the, the most perfect s- ~uh, ~[00:35:00] solution, but, ~uh, ~you’ll adjust later on and you’ll, you’ll figure out the next best thing as time goes on.

[00:35:05] And so, ~um, ~you know, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll be able to do that. And, and I guess all that to say is that I, I, I totally get where you’re coming from, where the, ~uh, ~military mindset that, that kinda quick thinking, adapt, overcome, that, that type of thing, ~uh, ~really could fit well in those s- situations. And, ~um,~

[00:35:26] Dwight Boddorf: su- supremely well. ~Um,~

[00:35:27] Scott DeLuzio: yeah.

[00:35:27] Dwight Boddorf: you know what else helps a lot is, is thick skin, right? You develop that in the military, so when you make those decisions, sometimes you’re gonna make– maybe it’s not an ideal decision, right? You had 75% of the information, and three weeks later you’re gonna be on social media because somebody picked apart the 5% way you could have done it better,

[00:35:47] Scott DeLuzio: Yep

[00:35:48] Dwight Boddorf: You know, in a perfect scenario and all these world, right? Y- you’re gonna have to learn how to deal with that and, and take criticism being a community leader. And, ~um, ~you know, it’s hard for a lot of people, even people with thick skin. But, [00:36:00] know, a lot of the service members and things that we were all taught to, you know, you deal with it, you, you move on, you live with the decisions that you have made, and, and you keep on keeping on. That is one of those kind of intangible things that they don’t really teach you when you’re going through public administration for your master’s degree, right? ~Um, ~and it hits you like a wall the first time that you find yourself plastered all over social media or on the local news channel or whatever it is

[00:36:26] for decision that still is arguably right, but could have gone a little bit better, or maybe you didn’t give enough

[00:36:32] Scott DeLuzio: Sure

[00:36:33] Dwight Boddorf: whatever it is. ~Um, ~veterans tend to handle that pretty well.

[00:36:38] Scott DeLuzio: Now, ~uh, ~you mentioned your book, The Municipal Battlefield. ~Um, ~we, we’ve been talking obviously a little bit about, ~uh, ~municipals and stuff like that. For the listeners who might be interested, you know, thinking now a little bit more about, you know, maybe, maybe I do wanna help out a little bit more in my, ~uh, ~my community here, ~um, ~tell us a little bit more about the book and, ~uh, ~and, and what people can expect from that [00:37:00] book

[00:37:00] Dwight Boddorf: Yeah. So, ~um, ~the book was directly taken from, ~um, ~military doctrine. So I found myself after 15, 20 years in the government when I got into, after being at the federal government county government leading divisions, a master’s degree in public administration, got into the smallest levels of government and realized there was no book.

[00:37:23] There’s no manual. There’s no, what do I do at 2:00 in the morning when I’ve got a power outage, a water break, and these other things all going on at the same time? You know, the mayor’s blowing up my phone. ~Um, ~I’ve got KDKA and the radio on the other line. Like, how do you handle all that? What do you do? ~Um, ~are a lot of really great books out there, but, you know, they’re a couple hundred, couple thousand pages long.

[00:37:45] That’s not gonna help you at 2:00 in the morning. And so what I set out to do was write more of a field manual, a less than 150 page, here’s your guide, here’s what you need to know, ~um, ~major pitfalls, things that you should watch out for, things that you need [00:38:00] to have in your back pocket, right? operating procedures is intimately familiar with everybody in the military, right?

[00:38:06] So how do you apply that to your public works division, right? Checklist, making sure that when it’s snow season, snowplows are attached, things are greased, so on and so forth, that, you know, you can standardize all those things and get a little checklist, give it out to your public works director, or even for yourself going and ask them, “Was this done?

[00:38:25] Was this done? Was this done?” Right?

[00:38:27] don’t want to be the leader in the situation that half your snowplows broke down during the first storm because you didn’t do your due diligence.

[00:38:34] Scott DeLuzio: Right

[00:38:34] Dwight Boddorf: right. Well, and, you know, it’s, but it’s those little things that, that make you or break you in the small town. When you’re a, when you’re a big city, you have a lot of resources, you have a lot of different things, right?

[00:38:45] ~Um, ~but when you’re a small town and maybe there’s only 10 of you, y- there’s no hiding from that if you, if you forget something, if you don’t break something. And so this book was really designed to help give the bare bones and the essentials to small town leaders [00:39:00] for how they survive that. You know, here’s really, again, what you should be thinking about. Here’s your SOP. Here’s what you should, you know, reach out to, kind of be aware of, ~um, ~state level resources, all of those things. ~Um, ~so hopefully a handful of people find it useful. ~Um, ~I certainly would’ve been happy to receive something that gave me at least an outline of what I should be thinking about when it comes to running all the municipal operations, finance, public works, IT.

[00:39:26] ~Um, ~you know, who do you make friends with first? And listening who’s in government, I can tell you the first people that you make friends with are your police and fire chiefs, ’cause they will make or break you.

[00:39:37] Scott DeLuzio: That’s, that’s great advice. ~Um, ~and, and as you’re talking, you know, a, a book like this with the, ~uh, uh,~ kinda field manual layout and, and stuff, I think is uniquely, ~uh, ~you know, great for the veteran who wants to get involved in their, their local government,

[00:39:55] Dwight Boddorf: Yeah

[00:39:55] Scott DeLuzio: ‘ cause they’re already familiar with that kind of layout, and [00:40:00] they, ~uh, ~you know, they’re, they’re scrappy.

[00:40:02] They, they can figure things out on the fly, and they, they can, they can get the job done,

[00:40:06] Dwight Boddorf: I’ve gotten

[00:40:06] Scott DeLuzio: right-

[00:40:07] Dwight Boddorf: response from veterans because they look at it and they go, “Oh, I recognize this.”

[00:40:12] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:40:12] Dwight Boddorf: So it’s– I had, I put a translation matrix in at the beginning for people who have, who are not familiar with military because they’re looking at this expecting like a, a public affairs book,

[00:40:23] and it looks vastly different from any public affairs book that most people have ever seen. but if you, if you come from military world or even places like police emergency management, it’s a familiar that they, they recognize instantly, “Oh, okay, I know how to use this. This is helpful, straight and to the point.” ~Um, ~and that was really the intention, was something that was just absolutely useful in a pinch at 2:00 in the morning.

[00:40:48] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Well, ~um, ~for the listeners right now, for, like, you know, a veteran who might be listening who, ~uh, ~has been through, you know, some difficult times maybe with their transition, maybe with some [00:41:00] issues with the VA, ~uh, ~feeling like they’re overlooking them or doesn’t, doesn’t know where to, where they fit in, what, ~uh, ~what would you want them to take away from your story and, and your experiences?

[00:41:11] Dwight Boddorf: ~Um, ~it’s gonna sound a little cliché, but, you know, keep going. ~Um, ~not knowing where you fit in does not mean that you don’t belong, right? Keep going. You will find something. ~Uh, ~you will find your tribe. You will find where you fit in. It’s, it’s perseverance. ~Uh, ~at this point, you’re in a marathon, right?

[00:41:28] You’ve got the rest of your life. You find those things that excite you. You find the people that are gonna support you, and you always pushing one day at a time, one step at a time. you’re not done just because your uniform came off. There are other ways to serve and find what works for you

[00:41:51] Scott DeLuzio: Great advice. ~Um, ~Dwight, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your, your background, your insights, ~uh, ~things that you’ve gone through, some of the hardships that you’ve had to [00:42:00] overcome, and the things that you have done to get yourself through them and find a way to, ~uh, ~continue living a meaningful, purpose- purposeful life, ~uh, ~with, ~uh, ~you know, all the, the continued service that you’re, you’re doing.

[00:42:13] So thank you so much

[00:42:13] Dwight Boddorf: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for everything that you’re doing for the veterans community as well

[00:42:19] Scott DeLuzio: Appreciate it

What do you do when you leave the uniform behind, but still feel that sense of mission?

In this episode, Dwight Boddorf talks about a journey that took many unexpected turns. He went from a tough beginning to joining the Marine Corps, and faced experiences that changed his life. Dwight shares moments that challenged him in ways he never saw coming, and explains how those struggles didn’t end when his service did.

We also talk about how a chance opportunity led Dwight to help other veterans find their way through a complex system. That work eventually brought him into a new kind of leadership. He also shares how military skills can be useful in unexpected places, even where you might not expect.

This conversation is about resilience, purpose, and what it means to keep going when you’re not sure what comes next. It’s a story of finding your way again and realizing that your mission may still be ahead of you.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Scott DeLuzio: The switch, you learn to flip while in uniform where you can compartmentalize and focus on the task at hand can be hard to shut off when you get out. It helps you push through pain, stay locked in and get the job done. But life after the service has different needs when things slow down, but your mind keeps running.

What many are really looking for is a way to feel steady again, to be present with your family and to understand what is happening inside before it spills into your work, your health, or the people you love. In this episode, our guest today, Chris Irwin, brings the perspective of a retired Navy seal, the Navy Seal Foundation, and his rare sense work on mental fitness.

You’ll hear why mental toughness is only one tool, why awareness has to come first, and how veterans can begin training the mind without pretending everything is fine. Before we get into this episode though, I want to take a moment to raise awareness for something that’s important to our community. The Global War On Terrorism Memorial [00:01:00] Foundation.

This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, families, and civilians impacted by the global war on terrorism. Will be both a tribute to those who served in a way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come.

If you’d like, learn more or find out how you can support their mission, visit GWOT Memorial Foundation dot org. Now, let’s get into today’s episode.

[00:01:38] Scott DeLuzio: Hey, Chris, welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here.

[00:01:40] Chris Irwin: Thanks, man. Happy to be here.

[00:01:42] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely.

Hey, before we jump into the conversation for the listeners who maybe aren’t familiar with you, could you introduce yourself briefly and just share a bit about, you know, your background, who you are that,

[00:01:52] Chris Irwin: Sure.

[00:01:53] Scott DeLuzio: yeah.

[00:01:53] Chris Irwin: Irwin I’m assuming that’s in the, the title of the episode somewhere, so the listing. So, I. [00:02:00] Retired seal, retired Navy seal. I was in the SEAL teams for 20 years total. I spent 14 years on active duty, six in the reserves. So that was kind of my main career for an extended period of time.

Naval Academy graduate. I spent some time over in England going to graduate school before going to Bud s and then after that did a number of things. Started out kind of selling investment research and that wasn’t. Great. I learned a lot about transitioning out of the military through that experience, but my wife and I opened up the first CrossFit gym in the Virgin Islands back in 2011.

I think that was the same year that I got out of the military. Ran that for a few years. Loved it. Great experience. CrossFit St. Thomas in the island of St. Thomas. I then got a job as the president of a small beverage company, startup beverage company called Kill Cliff in the CrossFit space, and spent five years there as the president, learning a lot about small business, how to run [00:03:00] a business, how not to run a business. Really got my feet wet and with a lot of the job training, having not come from any kind of business background. I didn’t have an MBA or anything like that. And for the last eight years? Yeah, just, I think I’ve hit the eight year mark in a couple of

weeks. Like, so we’re recording this early July,

[00:03:21] Scott DeLuzio: Yep.

[00:03:22] Chris Irwin: At the Naval, or sorry, at the Naval, at the Navy Seal Foundation in various roles kind of moving up.

So I started as the West Coast Development Director, which is fundraising. Moved into director position, moved into the communications director position now the VP of Communications. So I, I run all of. Marketing communica communications for the

Navy Seal Foundation, which I know we’ll talk

[00:03:45] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:03:46] Chris Irwin: And then I’ve got a side project called Rare Sense, which is about mental fitness and, and it’s kind of a, a comprehensive look at how to build mental fitness beyond mental toughness, which I think is the key [00:04:00] component of it, because I think a lot of people they hear. Mental fitness coming from a former Navy seal, and they sort of assume it’s all about just grind it out and get up or like the message is gonna

be, suck it up, don’t quit, go

[00:04:11] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:04:12] Chris Irwin: And it’s really not the thing I’m talking about at all. Mainly because the demographic I’m focused on is other veterans and military members and people that are kind of come from that culture already and already understand how to do that. But that approach isn’t. Solving every problem that they have or every issue that they have, and it’s born from my own experience as a veteran struggling mentally struggling with chronic illness in a lot of ways, and finding that the, the tools I had been taught in the military while effective for that type of situation weren’t

helping me post service.

[00:04:53] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And I think a lot of folks getting out of the military recognize. Some of the stuff that you just were mentioning, that, that, that it [00:05:00] was definitely useful, you know, while bullets are flying and while, you know, things like that are going on, right? But,

you know, when you’re walking into Walmart, bullets aren’t typically flying and you’re, you’re,

[00:05:09] Chris Irwin: not

[00:05:10] Scott DeLuzio: you’d hope not.

[00:05:10] Chris Irwin: country. they might be

[00:05:12] Scott DeLuzio: they might be you, you never know on occasion that may happen, but your typical interaction, your day-to-day interaction, that kind of stuff is not happening. And so, you know, you, you can put that stuff aside. You can kind of store it away. When, when something bad happens, sure, absolutely. Check that stuff back in and, and start using tho those skills that you used in the military.

Because that, that’s absolutely critical. It doesn’t matter if you’re wearing a uniform or not, that, you know, survival is survival and

you know, whatever you need to do is, is what you need to do. But but a lot of, I think a lot of people kind of recognize that it’s, it’s just not. Helpful in everyday life and, you know, how do I turn that switch off and how do I, you know, move forward from there.

So we’ll get into that in just a minute. I want, I wanna kind of, cover both of the, these organizations that you were [00:06:00] just talking about here. The, the Navy Seal Foundation and, you know, your meant. Mental fitness stuff as well. But I want, I just kind of clarify to the listeners, these are two separate organizations.

They’re not the same organizations. Just you know, we’re talking before we started recording, the, the only common link between these two are, are, are our guest today, Chris here. And that’s, that’s really the only link. So I, I do wanna talk about ’em, but I don’t wanna confuse things and, and talk about ’em at the same time.

So let’s maybe start with the Navy Seal Foundation. Just start with that. Dive into there.

And you know, I know a lot of listeners are familiar with the Navy Seals and, and you know, that, that type of thing, especially nowadays, it’s gotten a whole lot more popular, you know, in, in you know, culture and things like that where, where people know about the Navy Seals, but maybe not the Navy Seal Foundation.

So tell us a little bit about what the Navy Seal Foundation actually does for for the community and, and you know, who they serve and all that kind of stuff.

[00:06:52] Chris Irwin: We are the largest nonprofit that supports the Naval Special Warfare community, NSW, Naval Special Warfare is what? [00:07:00] People typically think of as the SEAL community. It’s not just Seals, it’s also Swix, which are Special warfare combat crewmen. They’re the, the special boat drivers and it’s support personnel.

And in terms of the people we support, it is their family members. It’s veterans, it’s families of the fallen. It’s something like 25,000 people-ish that. We could support that would theoretically fall underneath our programs. Only about two, two to 3000 of that is seals. So, so you just kind of get a sense of like how big the community actually is

[00:07:36] Scott DeLuzio: Okay,

[00:07:37] Chris Irwin: the operators themselves.

The SEAL operators we. We’ve been around since 2000 in some form or another. There was actually another organization that stood up a parallel nonprofit, and those came together in 2011 to, to form the Navy Seal Foundation. But the, the EIN, the tax ID number for [00:08:00] us goes all the way back to what was then. I always screw this up. The The Naval Special Warfare, I think it was a Naval Special

Warfare Foundation, is what it was

[00:08:08] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:08:09] Chris Irwin: out of. And then there was this other organization that was fundraising and those came together to form the Navy Seal Foundation in 2011. We have four pillars of support, community, health, education, and legacy.

And underneath each of those pillars, there’s four programs. So four pillars, four programs per pillar, and. really spans the gamut of support that you probably could think of for those various groups of people. So it’s anything from respite, childcare to children’s camps, transition support, mental health, physical health programs, grants a whole series of programs for families that have fallen memorial services. I’m trying to think of what else is in [00:09:00] there. But

very comprehensive set of programs. The foundation started with essentially just a couple of scholarships and has now grown to be, we’re about 30 to $40 million a year that we will spend on

the. Community

[00:09:20] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:09:21] Chris Irwin: and we constantly evaluate our stuff too. So it’s, these programs are not set in stone.

There’s some that’ll probably in some form or fashion never go away, but we’re constantly evaluating to try and stay relevant. I mean, certainly to that point in recent years, we’ve really stepped up our veteran mental and physical health support and that. That, that falls under our health pillar. And just the amount we spend there now is something, I think $8 million or something like that last year.

And a lot of that is this program we have called the Warrior Fitness Program. It’s run by one of our [00:10:00] partners, Virginia High Performance, which is run, founded, and run by a, a former SEAL and his wife. They started on the East coast, we helped expand it. We expanded it to the west coast. We, we built basically a whole facility like A NFL combine level kind of, or NFL locker room, kind of a, or weight room kind of facility in support of it. And so like that alone is a multimillion dollar program that’s really changing lives, I think. I mean, we get that feedback constantly that. This has been life changing for me. I didn’t think that I couldn’t, could never be in pain again, and now I’m pain

free. That kind of thing.

[00:10:39] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And

you know, just, just from personal experience, having gone through stuff where you, you’re in pain and it seems like the pain’s just never gonna end. And no matter what you try, it seems like just nothing’s, nothing’s working. But then all of a sudden you, you find something that, that. Starts to work for you.

And it’s like, there, there’s that light at the end of the tunnel and you [00:11:00] start feeling the pain relief and you, you start to be able to do things that you weren’t able to do before. And you know, I, I had back issues and, and neck issues and you know, my all the, the medications, all the, injections and therapies and all the things that they were doing. Just none. None of it was working. And, and you know, started lifting weights and, you know, kind of building up the muscles again. And you know, I, I got to a point where I didn’t need any of that stuff anymore, and, and I, I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing that I.

I, I actually can I actually can bend over and like pick something up off the floor without feeling like, I’ll never get up again.

You know, like, it, it’s, it’s just a amazing, and so like when you, when you’re talking about this being life changing, to some people it absolutely is. I mean, seriously as something as simple as just picking up something off the floor was, was like a nightmare

[00:11:45] Chris Irwin: Yeah.

[00:11:46] Scott DeLuzio: for, me.

And I, I can imagine some other folks, you know, especially in the the Navy Seals and, and the other folks who support them they. Probably have experienced far worse injuries and, and things like that than, than I did. And, and you know, how do you [00:12:00] navigate life? How do you, you know, sit in the car, in traffic?

What, when your, your back is killing you and,

[00:12:05] Chris Irwin: Right.

[00:12:05] Scott DeLuzio: or, or, or go to work or, you know, whatever. You know, those things could be totally debilitating. And you know, if you, if you can’t figure out a way to get through that you know, you, you start, you start feeling. Kind of hopeless. And so this is a, a huge thing.

You know, I, I think, and you know, as, as you were talking before about the the community, the size of the community, you said, you know, 25,000 or so you know, people could technically be, you know, kind of encompassing in, in this, but only two or 3000 are actually Navy Seals. But if you think about it, like the Navy Seals is as great as you guys are and all the, the training that you guys go through and all the things like that, there’s so much other stuff that.

You guys don’t necessarily need to do. You, there’s logistics stuff. There’s all this other stuff that goes into you know, the, the work that you do that, you know, you can’t do everything. There’s only so many hours in a day and you know, so you obviously have to have some support team there. And those people [00:13:00] are.

Probably just as hard charging as far as their, their mentality and everything, you

[00:13:05] Chris Irwin: Yes.

[00:13:06] Scott DeLuzio: and, so,

Yeah, absolutely. You guys gotta, you gotta take care of the whole family right in.

[00:13:11] Chris Irwin: Yeah.

[00:13:12] Scott DeLuzio: And

you know, so I, I assume that a lot of folks, they, they hear, you know, the, the terms like, you know, support organization and, and stuff like that, and they’re just not sure what it is that you guys offer.

And, and so you, you talked a little bit about some of the stuff that you guys do, but you know, for someone who is, you know, kind of life scenario, someone’s reaching out to you guys for some assistance you know, whether they’re dealing with a, you know, an injury like we were talking about before, maybe the transition out.

Some sort of other crisis or, or whatever that they might be going through. What does it actually look like in, in real life when someone reaches out, what, what’s the, the process look like and what kind of you know, experience can they expect?

[00:13:48] Chris Irwin: It really depends on the type of person and where they are. I mean, I would say the overall process in terms of someone reaching out that’s standard,

they could call us. They can obviously go to our website

[00:13:58] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:13:58] Chris Irwin: click, there’s a button that [00:14:00] says request support. piece of it is pretty easy. But then where they get vectored so to speak, or kind of support they receive completely depends on, and I would say it depends on the immediacy of it. might, it might be a true crisis situation. I mean, certainly if there’s, if we lose somebody, if there’s a, a fallen, like there’s a immediate spring into action. Response that happens from us in terms of supporting the family, supporting the memorial service. The, the family members are then rolled into our gold star programs, which means we’re gonna support them on some level, essentially in perpetuity. So there’s, there’s kind of that kind of thing. Or it might be somebody in crisis, whether that’s suicidal ideation or it’s. Substance abuse or something like that, wounded. It might not be a casualty where someone has lost their life, but there might be a, a wounded. So

[00:14:56] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:56] Chris Irwin: kind of an immediacy there.

But then there’s other things where it’s [00:15:00] someone’s applying for a scholarship. That’s a process where twice a year we, it’s different on the two cycles, but we have two cycles a year where we it’s like, Hey, you wanna apply for a scholarship? And that’s. chil, that’s dependents, that’s active duty. It’s and I don’t think we ever turn anybody down. It might vary how much they get, but there’s a whole review process there. But my own family has benefited from that. My s, my oldest son who’s in college, applies for that and is received a scholarship. the last two years.

[00:15:33] Scott DeLuzio: Great.

[00:15:34] Chris Irwin: And and again, I think just about anybody who qualifies, who applies and actually goes through the process, gets something out of that.

I don’t think anybody is denied. That. And then there’s things that are sort of, I don’t wanna say routine, but things like respite, childcare, where service members deployed and that we’re just trying to take some of the strain off of the spouse

who has to deal with just everyday life, but has to do it without their partner for six months or maybe longer. And [00:16:00] so the ability for them to have paid for childcare where they can just drop off their kids and they can get done whatever they need to get done. And maybe that’s errands. Maybe that’s, I just wanna take a nap,

or I want to go to the gym,

[00:16:10] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:16:11] Chris Irwin: like that. kind of a thing where it’s, there’s an ongoing bit of support there.

So like I said, it really spans the gamut. I would say the other thing are extended programs or even things like camps where, you know, apply for camp, you sign a kid up for camp, there’s the camp in the summer. I think we have something like seven or eight camps at this point, different parts of the country that are supporting kids of varying ages as well. But then. Sort of extended programs, whether that’s the Warrior Fitness program with VHP, which is four to six weeks, or it’s like through a partner where guys are transitioning out and we fund any Naval Special Warfare member who [00:17:00] goes to something called the Honor Foundation, which is another nonprofit.

But we’ve, we fund the guys to go through that. So a lot of times the things that we’re doing we’re

not. We don’t wanna reinvent the wheel. So if

[00:17:10] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:17:10] Chris Irwin: out there do providing a service through a nonprofit or, or even for profit, I think that would support NSW. There’s no need for us to create a redundant program where we stand it up on our, on our own.

It’s like we vet the program is said, great, this program serves the need we’re trying to fill. We’ll just fund guys to go to that. So that’s the case with the Honor Foundation, which is essentially. like a mini cohort. Mini MBA. It is, are getting out, they don’t know what they’re gonna do next.

They don’t know anything about the business world. It’s training them up on that, giving the exposure to the options that are out there and allowing them to figure out what they want too, what they, appeals to them. Because I think I can speak to this personally, outta the military, [00:18:00] you might have an idea in your head initially like, oh, I wanna go do this.

But after you.

Go try that. It’s like, oh, that wasn’t the right

[00:18:07] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:18:08] Chris Irwin: And that’s okay.

[00:18:09] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:18:10] Chris Irwin: you can if you can negate the need to err on that by understanding the difference between, okay, you want to go work on Wall Street and grind yourself and make tons of money, or you wanna start your own business, or you want to go work in corporate America, or you wanna work in some small startup, those are all different. Avenues to take and just understanding what that entails, the pros and cons of each of those things is just going to set somebody up for

success that much more.

[00:18:41] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely.

And, and so there’s, there’s a lot of, you know, just taken, taken away from what you’re just saying here. There’s a lot of things that you guys will support folks in, and I, I think it’s a great approach that you take too, when, when you are not reinventing the wheel and you’re, you know, reaching out to other organizations that are already doing the thing that you’re, [00:19:00] you’re needing for this individual who needs support.

It’s a great way to collaborate because you know, there’s. A, you’re not turning people away. B you’re getting them the, the help that they need. But, but c also, and I think kind of more important that the experts in whatever it is that they need support with are the ones who are delivering that, that service to that person as opposed to someone saying, Hey, there’s a need.

Let’s go figure out how to do it. And you. Throwing it together. It may not, I’m not saying it would be throw together like half-assed or anything, but it may not be to the level of, of someone who’s been doing it already for, you know, 10, 15, 20 years or, or however long now. So, you know, it, you know, let’s, let’s collaborate.

Let’s work together. Let’s figure out how we can make this happen. And, and I think that’s a, a great approach. To how you guys do that. And, and so it, it kind of fills some of these gaps that might be out there for different services, different needs that folks may have where, you know, on, on your own you may be like, ah, geez, I don’t know that we can handle all that.

But you know, when you start [00:20:00] collaborating it, it kind of takes care of some of those gaps and actually start moving the needle as far as the, the support that folks need. Right? I, I think that’s, that’s a big, big big benefit to what. The way you guys are approaching things. Now a anything else with the Navy Seal Foundation?

I, I, I know I want, I wanna move over to the mental fitness stuff too. I just don’t want to shortchange the Navy Seal Foundation either. So anything else from that side that you wanna maybe talk about

[00:20:25] Chris Irwin: mean, what I

[00:20:25] Scott DeLuzio: before we move?

[00:20:26] Chris Irwin: for anybody that’s

interested, certainly go to our website, go

[00:20:29] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:20:30] Chris Irwin: seal foundation.org. There’s all the links to our social media. I would say the other things that are ways that you can get involved, we have tons of events throughout the year, and that can be anything from a sit down. Not black tie, but dress up fundraising style thing where there’s keynote speakers and that kind of thing. At different parts of the country, major cities for the most part, there’s smaller fundraising events, golf things,

athletic [00:21:00] events. We’ve got like, we work with the premier lacrosse league. We’ve got a lacrosse game coming up. well, you said

by the time this airs it’ll be over, but

[00:21:09] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:21:10] Chris Irwin: August, but it’s an annual thing where Seals and swix lacrosse against veteran guys, green Berets. And we, we do it with the Green Beret Foundation and it’s a, a friendly kind of match. And they do that. They’re doing that in Columbus, Ohio this, this year.

So there’s things like that too, and people can start their own. So there’s, there’s various ways to get involved beyond just, just donating, which is great. We also have a podcast that I host so like people can hear me talk if they want and kind of check out not to take any of your viewers away, and they stack another podcast into their list of podcasts that they subscribe to. There’s that piece of it. Yeah, I think outside of that we’re just there’s a lot of, I would

just say [00:22:00] there’s a lot of ways to get involved and find

[00:22:02] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:22:02] Chris Irwin: about what we do. I would say dig into those resources and, and check it out. We put out a lot of content. We put out a lot on our social media and our YouTube and we’ll, we welcome anybody to get involved

as they, at any level too.

[00:22:17] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Sure. And

I, I think that that’s a, a great point there is that you, you have so many different things that are out there really depends on e either the needs of the people who, you know, what is it that you need from the organization, like what you know. What can you get out of that? But but also if you have the means to give to the organization in one way or another depends on what it is that you prefer to do.

If you, you’re the type of person who likes to go get dressed up and go to a fancy dinner or you know, go play around of golf or, or whatever. You can help raise funds and you can help support the organization in, in a lot of different ways. So, I will have a link to the website in the the show notes, the description for the, the listeners.

I’ll even include a link to the the podcast [00:23:00] as well. So, yeah, no, I, I, I, I love, you know, sharing other.

[00:23:04] Chris Irwin: to snipe your, your

[00:23:05] Scott DeLuzio: Oh,

[00:23:05] Chris Irwin: in.

[00:23:06] Scott DeLuzio: you’re good. You’re good. I, I love actually sharing

other, other resources like that too, because you know, you never know where people might, you know, kind of resonate. You know, maybe they’re, they’re listening to the show and they’re, they’re doing okay with, you know, the stuff that we have, but maybe you have something better for an individual that, that’s listening.

And, you know, at the end of the day, I want, I want people to get the support and the, the tools, use the tools that are out there and available to them. If it’s found someplace else and find it someplace else, and that’s, that’s fine with me as long as they’re getting what they need. So,

[00:23:33] Chris Irwin: I appreciate that.

[00:23:35] Scott DeLuzio: yeah, absolutely.

No, no problem there. So let, let’s kind of move, move on to, to what you’re doing, the, the with, you know, the mental fitness and, and all that.

You know, I, I know there’s a lot of veterans who think of themselves as mentally tough but they may not necessarily be mentally fit you know, the way you kind of described before.

So, you know, I, I we’re all trained to just kind of push through everything and, and just, you know. Find a, [00:24:00] find a spot in your brain to just tuck that, that other stuff away and just kind of push through. What’s the difference in, in your mind between mental toughness and mental fitness?

[00:24:09] Chris Irwin: The difference is that mental toughness

is a component of mental fitness, but

[00:24:14] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:24:15] Chris Irwin: everything. And I think I said at the beginning, this was born from my experience of coming outta the military, really having some severe mental challenges that I was dealing with and that. Lent itself eventually to chronic illness struggles as well, physical debil debilitation in various ways, and I can get into the details if you want, but the long and short of it is that it was very severe at times to the point of suicidal ideation.

Even coming pretty close to taking my own life at one point and out of that process that. There were a couple things going on. The first was that a lot of the treatments I was chasing weren’t doing much. I was [00:25:00] chasing a lot of treatments, a lot of external.

fixed me, something fixed me a

[00:25:05] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:25:06] Chris Irwin: I gotta, there’s gotta be some drug I can take that’s gonna fix me, or some therapy I’m gonna go to that’s gonna fix me or put me in this chamber or whatever, and that’s gonna fix me. And I’m not saying that those things didn’t have any effect. Some of them helpful, but they really weren’t. solving the problem or problems for me. I, I, I should say, let me correct myself there. It’s, it’s rarely in these situations a single problem, and that part that is part of the problem is that we label things that way. But moreover, the, the tool we tend to either innately know or learn along the way when you come from a background or you enter into. A special operations pipeline or some kind of, in my estimation, some kind of first responder thing. Anything that’s [00:26:00] alpha type, that kind of culture, that warrior class, whatever that might look like, we’re good at it because we tend to be mentally tough. Meaning we can, to your point, compartmentalize, we can suck it up, we can grind through pain,

we can deal with it, or we learn that along the way.

[00:26:17] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:26:17] Chris Irwin: Right. E either it’s revealed or it’s like we sort of figure out, look, that’s what, just what you gotta do. And there’s a lot of messaging out there that basically says that’s the answer. That’s the solution. Because look, that’s what creates Navy Seals and that creates Green Berets and that’s creates firefighters and cops.

And, and some level that’s true. That is a skill that we need. But the, the fallacy, the mistake is that. We think that means mental fitness. We think that toughness equals fitness and it doesn’t. It again, it’s very, it’s a very valuable tool certain situations, on missions, on the job, [00:27:00] when you have to deal with that kind of stuff. But when you’re dealing with PTSD or anxiety or severe depression, that’s not an effective tool. In fact, I would say it’s counter

effective or counterproductive.

[00:27:13] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:27:13] Chris Irwin: so when your only tool is, we’ll suck it up. That’s, I always say the example of some guy sitting there with like a bottle of Jack Daniels and a and a loaded gun by himself, and he is dealing with whatever he is dealing with, and the only thing he’s got to work with is suck it

up. Go harder.

[00:27:34] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:27:35] Chris Irwin: That’s an awful message at that point.

Awful. It’s like the worst thing you, I mean, you think about that. If someone’s standing next to that guy saying that to

him, you’d be like, what’s wrong with you?

[00:27:47] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:27:48] Chris Irwin: And yet, that’s what we do to ourselves like that’s basically what we’ve been taught. And so I had to go on a, like a complete journey of, okay, we, we, [00:28:00] have to do an in-depth exploration of how do we actually try to solve these things because all of my content is based on the premise the sort of thesis, the premises that. This isn’t something to fix, like externally, it’s not a pathology.

’cause that’s part of the other problem is once you have mental problems, it’s like a problem that needs to be treated somehow. My thing is like, I’m not saying never, that’s never the case, but and large people are basically mentally out of shape in some form or fashion. They don’t have any of the training tools.

They’ve never been taught any of that stuff. They don’t even understand what’s going on for the most part. And so it’s, it’s basically a lack of knowledge and then a lack of application of that knowledge. And that’s the paradigm shift that I’m trying to bring about because the solution to every mental struggle out there is not take more [00:29:00] drugs and go to more therapy.

We don’t even have enough therapists to handle that situation. The same way if you’re outta shape and overweight the solution, I mean, you can do that these days, but most of that is on you to fix almost all of it.

[00:29:17] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:18] Chris Irwin: the actual work that needs to be done, eating right, exercising, getting enough sleep, someone can

tell you what to do, but you have to do it.

[00:29:26] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:29:27] Chris Irwin: I just feel the same way about health. Someone can teach you for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Again, someone’s gotta teach you this stuff, but you have to do it. No one else can do it for you. No one can think for you or something like, or feel for you. That’s nonsense. And that’s the paradigm shift I’m trying to bring about in an actionable way. Not just theoretic, not just in theory, but like, here you go. Here’s some of the stuff

that worked for me.

[00:29:55] Scott DeLuzio: You know, and I, I, I like how that, how you phrased [00:30:00] all that and, and how, how you’re, you’re thinking about it because you’re right. You do need to do the work. You, you can go to the therapy sessions and just have a bitch fest for an hour and, you know, just, you know. And then walk out and go off and do the same thing that you’ve always been doing, and you’re not gonna see any changes,

[00:30:17] Chris Irwin: right.

[00:30:18] Scott DeLuzio: that’s not really gonna be very productive.

So you gotta do some work outside of the therapy sessions. It’s not just the, you know, one hour a week or whatever it is that you, you end up going you, you have to do a lot more than that. Outside of the therapy and, you know, sometimes it, it feels like it’s a lot of work and it’s probably because it is.

But you have to do something to change. You keep doing the same thing that you’ve always done. You’re gonna get the same results that you’ve always, you’ve always gotten. And, and it’s not a good situation where, where you’re at if you’re, if you’re already there. So, you know, you, you talked a little bit about yourself and your experiences.

What were some of the warning signs that you were maybe experiencing some trouble? O [00:31:00] obviously the suicidal ideation and, and that type of thing

[00:31:02] Chris Irwin: that’s

[00:31:03] Scott DeLuzio: is,

[00:31:03] Chris Irwin: far

[00:31:04] Scott DeLuzio: that’s pretty far down, but were there other warning signs before that,

And things that maybe you wish someone had said to you earlier that like, Hey, you know, maybe you’re, you’re not doing as good as you think you might be doing, or, or something along those lines.

[00:31:16] Chris Irwin: Well, I would say. I didn’t know what was going on originally. So like for me it was, there was a lot of survivor’s guilt some PTSD things, just like ruminating thoughts, thinking things over and over and over again, not realizing that I was doing it. so it’s just a lack of awareness that. Aspect. And then the other part was lack of a aware, I mean, this is where it starts. I think it’s the, it’s the lack of that. It’s just we’re we are fused with our own thoughts and not able to objectively look at ’em. So we’re doing these types of things where we’re thinking about something over and over again, or telling a story over and over again, and we just think, well, that’s, that’s, that’s me.

I’m [00:32:00] tied up in, there’s

[00:32:00] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:32:01] Chris Irwin: ability to objectively look at that. then I, the same thing with kind of emotional energy. So there’s the. The thinking aspect of it, but then there’s the feeling aspect of it too, where pretty early on as I was getting outta the military, I started having panic attacks and mock heart, like things that felt like a heart attack and tremors and all sorts of stuff that I had no idea what was going on.

I thought first, I thought I was having a heart attack, but I was physically fine. And then my mind went to all sorts of places, which only made things worse. Again, not realizing what I was doing. I, so there was, I would say, so it’s hard to say knowing the warning signs because it was like, I didn’t even have the

awareness to recognize

[00:32:47] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:32:48] Chris Irwin: going on, which again, is part of the, which is like at the core of the problem for most people, they don’t have the recognition to. [00:33:00] There’s no internal awareness

[00:33:02] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you end up going down that road so long that it just starts to feel normal. That, that you’re, you’re experiencing what Whatever’s for so long.

[00:33:16] Chris Irwin: It feels, it is normal at

[00:33:17] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:33:18] Chris Irwin: in the sense that what you’re, what you’re doing is you’ve habituated it. So what starts off as this is how habits form and a ha habit is just a pattern of behavior that becomes imbued into you. We think again that that’s us. But really what we’ve done is we’ve ta taken something that we consciously do enough that our brain and nervous system says, oh, you do this all the time. I’m gonna automate this into your unconscious to free up some conscious bandwidth for you. It’s like, you know, on some level, your body and brain, your brain and nervous system is like,

sweet. I’m doing you a favor here

[00:33:53] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:33:54] Chris Irwin: you clearly this all the time. It’ll make it easy for you so you don’t have to think about it anymore. [00:34:00] But when you do that with something that’s self-destructive,

that’s a problem.

[00:34:05] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:34:06] Chris Irwin: Like that’s a, that’s a, that’s a destructive or negative. Negative, which I don’t love that term, but pattern of behavior that you’ve now unconscious, like it’s now an unconscious habit and, and then it becomes that much more challenging to overwrite it because you can’t just wish it away.

You can’t just sleep it off. You have to. Neurologically reprogram

yourself.

[00:34:32] Scott DeLuzio: Right. Yeah. And for, for something like that. So, just a, an example of somebody who, you know, is having, you know, a bunch of drinks at night, you

[00:34:43] Chris Irwin: Yeah.

[00:34:44] Scott DeLuzio: going to bed like that,

[00:34:45] Chris Irwin: Been

[00:34:45] Scott DeLuzio: just because Yeah, exactly. I, yeah, I’m, I’m saying someone, but I’m, you know, I could, I could, might as well look in the mirror,

[00:34:51] Chris Irwin: Yeah.

[00:34:52] Scott DeLuzio: you

know.

[00:34:52] Chris Irwin: let’s say this

Hypothe

[00:34:54] Scott DeLuzio: This hypothetical. Yeah. A friend of mine is doing this.

Right.

[00:34:56] Chris Irwin: Yeah. Person, right?

[00:34:58] Scott DeLuzio: but so,

you know, [00:35:00] having a bunch of drinks at night every night, it does. It’s not like a, oh, I’m just gonna have a drink on, you know, Friday or Saturday night when I’m hanging out with friends. It’s, it’s like I’m doing it all the time because this is just what I do every night.

And. You get into that habit and then that, you know, couple drinks turns into a couple more and turns into a couple more, and then eventually you’re, you’re like just having a huge problem. But you don’t even necessarily recognize how you even got there. And so you almost need to replace that habit with some other habit that’s maybe healthier.

You know, maybe instead of having drinks, you, you know. Grab an apple or something like that. Now you’re having an apple every night or something. I don’t know. I’m just using that as an example. But, you know, it feels like you, you need to maybe do something to, to kind of trick your mind out of doing that same habitual action or task or whatever it is that that’s self-destructive and doing something else that is a little bit more.

Healthy and then, you know, at some point, you know, [00:36:00] maybe you don’t need to do that all, all the time, but it, it helps separate your unconscious mind from that self-destructive activity. Is, is that kind of, kind of the, the path that you, you you think about?

[00:36:12] Chris Irwin: I would say in that circumstance, I think the, the best thing to do is drinking every night is a downstream effect of something. It’s not a, an end in and of itself. doing it to do something, you’re either trying to numb yourself or you’re trying to distract yourself or cover something up or there’s a physical addiction component to it too, where you become physically addicted to, to something like alcohol. It’s mainly there’s some part of you that’s doing, engaging that behavior, and to me, again, the, the, the best, the better way to approach it is start with trying to figure out what you’re doing,

like why you’re doing it. So an awareness. It’s like, okay, I’m drinking every night. [00:37:00] Okay. Theoretically, you’re, you’re saying, I don’t wanna drink every night.

I know this isn’t healthy for me. what’s going on? Like, instead of just trying to replace it, like let’s get to the root cause of things. You know, it’s

[00:37:13] Scott DeLuzio: sure.

[00:37:14] Chris Irwin: if you had a really bad smell in your house and you’re like, no problem. We’ll just let, let’s just buy some glade plugins. Fix the problem. Well, no you didn’t.

You fixed

the symptom. You didn’t fix the cause. It’s like

[00:37:25] Scott DeLuzio: Gotcha.

[00:37:26] Chris Irwin: smelly in your

house. Go find that.

[00:37:29] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:37:30] Chris Irwin: really it’s like go. And again, this goes into the mental training like. Meditation and some exploration and some journaling of like, alright,

am I doing this every night?

[00:37:42] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:37:43] Chris Irwin: the, other than the, physical addiction, which if it’s, it’s one thing if you, if you sort of collapse into full blown alcoholism where your body is literally dependent on alcohol and drinking all the time, it’s another thing if you just drink every night, and I know because I [00:38:00] come from a, a. Family of alcoholics, like my father was an alcoholic. I saw what true alcoholism does to somebody when they detox. I mean, you, you’re, you have a physical dependency on it. I never got to that part, but I can definitely say that I

got to a place where I was drinking too much.

[00:38:16] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:38:16] Chris Irwin: It never affected my work. I was never drinking to the day, and there was never a physical addiction.

’cause when I would stop it. It wasn’t like I was shaking or something like that, you know, I’m sure there’s some physiology there where there’s things that have to kind of recover or whatever, but I would never say that I was physically dependent. What I was, was mentally and emotionally dependent on alcohol and, and to me, again, the, the root of that is going on up here?

What’s this doing for me? What am I trying to escape? What am I trying to forget? What am I trying to get away from? That’s the thing to,

to explore ultimately, I

[00:38:55] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Yeah, no, that, and that makes sense too, because, you know, to your point, [00:39:00] that smell in the house isn’t gonna go away on its own. You know, so you, you gotta figure out what, what’s the root cause and not just cover it up with something that smells better you know. Where’s that source of that, you know, did something die in the house?

[00:39:13] Chris Irwin: You could even, I mean, the point here is you could even stop drinking. You could, let’s say you drink beer every night

and drink a six pack of beer every night and you’re able to switch it to non-alcoholic beer. So you get rid of the alcohol and you, you just drink a six pack of non-alcoholic beer every night.

So no big, no big deal. It’s a lot of calories, but so it’s still not the healthiest thing for you. You probably still didn’t really solve the problem though.

[00:39:41] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:39:42] Chris Irwin: solved the downstream effect a little bit. You mitigated it, but did you really get to the core part of the problem? I don’t

think you did.

[00:39:50] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:39:51] Chris Irwin: know?

[00:39:51] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. And so I, I, I like the way you, you put it better than how I put it before, you know, just kind of replacing it because because you’re right that [00:40:00] that will just cover the, the symptoms to some extent, not, not a hundred percent. And it, you know, ultimately it’s not addressing that root cause.

And, you know, so you’re, you’re treating the. That, that downstream effect, like you said it, without really you know, affecting that root cause. So, you know, so in, in your work, you, you I did a little bit of looking into it. You, you talk about things like mind killers, like fear suppression isolation and, and the things that we tell ourselves.

Those stories that we tell ourselves in, in our minds. ’cause we’re. A lot of times our own worst enemy and you know, which, which one are you? Which of those do you think affects the veterans, the, the, the most after leaving the service and how can they start pushing back against it?

[00:40:45] Chris Irwin: Yeah. So let me just kind of frame that up a little

[00:40:49] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:40:49] Chris Irwin: People understand. I work with, I have what’s called a mind killer framework. Mind killers is like my kind of paradigm that I utilize [00:41:00] in my material. And the idea is that it’s five things. It’s the five. that we sabotage ourselves mentally and emotionally. I, I mean this is, again, this is about like 10 plus years of work, of just looking at everything out there, looking at modalities, looking at and trying to simplify it to something that’s approachable and actionable. So the idea is like really any internal mental struggle in my estimation falls into one of those categories or a few of them, but it’s some, some combination of those five things, oblivion, storytelling, suppression, fear, stagnation, those are the five. And then every single one has a countermeasure, which is. Sort of like the channel that you’re working in. You can think of it like strength, speed, endurance, and physical training. Most of my stuff, I would say all of my stuff actually

very much parallels physical fitness.

[00:41:53] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:41:54] Chris Irwin: whole idea of this trainable stuff then exercises that fall underneath [00:42:00] those. Now you asked me are veterans struggling with the most? I don’t know. It could be any one of those things.

In fact, it usually is all of those things

[00:42:09] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:42:10] Chris Irwin: level. I know for me. Fear was the biggest problem

in the form of anxiety, which is just a form of chronic fear and still is the thing that I have to work with the most on. But they also, in terms of sort of battling them, overcoming them, working against them. they tend to, there’s a sequence there for the most part. And so I, I always think it’s important to, to work with oblivion and awareness first, which is you gotta source the

problem. This is exactly what I was just talking

[00:42:43] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Right.

[00:42:45] Chris Irwin: The very first thing you have to do is turn the spotlight inward and get very good working knowledge of what’s going on with you. And most people have no clue. that. They just don’t, they think they do, but they [00:43:00] don’t, they don’t objectively look at themselves internally. and so the point is, the whole idea again is this is trainable and. The idea is like you can self-diagnose,

and that starts with awareness,

[00:43:15] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:43:16] Chris Irwin: It’s not for me to tell you what you’re struggling with the most. It’s for you to tell you what you’re struggling with the most, if you start by being more aware of what’s going on internally, you’ll figure that out. If you don’t

know already.

[00:43:30] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and that’s a hard thing to do because we. We don’t, I don’t think we do enough of that self-reflecting. We, we can look at somebody else and say, oh my God, that that guy has got this problem and that problem, and, and we can do that. But you know, with ourselves looking inward, it, it’s, feels like it’s harder to do and it may.

Be one of those skills that you, you need to work on to try to figure out how, how do I look in on myself

[00:43:56] Chris Irwin: Right

[00:43:56] Scott DeLuzio: and, be critical of myself in a, in a, a, [00:44:00] a

constructive criticism,

[00:44:01] Chris Irwin: Right,

[00:44:02] Scott DeLuzio: that type of thing.

[00:44:03] Chris Irwin: again, it goes back to like what we started with, the mental toughness stuff, which, and on a lot of levels is the opposite. It is compartmentalize. Don’t deal with

that. Don’t like just tuck it away,

[00:44:13] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:44:14] Chris Irwin: down. Temporary solution again? Yes. Middle of a firefight. Yes, there. Absolutely.

Middle of a whatever it is, five alarm, fire, whatever that term is. Firefighters responding to something or some accident scene, the cops are on at that point. Is that the point to sort of break down in tears? No. Like you got in that situation. You gotta, you gotta, yes. Suck it up. Go right? It doesn’t matter how much physical pain you are in, you have a mission to accomplish.

You have people’s lives to save, whatever it may be. Got it afterwards. However, now you gotta like deal with whatever that, whatever, however it affects you. And it, it’s

not to say that it’s the same for everybody,

[00:44:55] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that’s true.

[00:44:56] Chris Irwin: affect you. Now [00:45:00] you’re like thinking about this thing over and over. Okay. And that’s all right. You know, but now it’s time to like do some other stuff that.

[00:45:09] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:10] Chris Irwin: There’s another point that I wanted to make there that I, that escapes me at the moment, but, but keep going. There

[00:45:15] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:45:15] Chris Irwin: thing that I wanted to say that, that was kind of, highlighted with what you were saying. Oh, it was, you were talking about. Diagnosing other people, looking at people, and, and again, sometimes we’re, we’re still, we’re not even getting the root of it. You could even say, this happens to people, like, that guy’s got a drinking problem, or That guy’s has a substance abuse problem. It’s like,

but why?

[00:45:36] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, sure.

[00:45:37] Chris Irwin: real problem? That’s a symptom. That’s not

the actual problem.

[00:45:43] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Yeah. And, and so we’ll, we’ll point those things out. We’ll, we’ll look at, oh gosh, that, that guy’s drinking so much, he’s doing, you know, whatever it is that they’re, they’re doing. And, and we will be able to point that out, but we may not necessarily know what’s going on on the inside with that person.

[00:45:59] Chris Irwin: [00:46:00] know.

[00:46:00] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:46:00] Chris Irwin: other

[00:46:01] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:46:01] Chris Irwin: That’s the pro, that’s a, that is kind of core

problem over the problem

[00:46:07] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:46:08] Chris Irwin: he probably doesn’t even know. And so if he doesn’t know how, is

anybody else gonna know?

[00:46:12] Scott DeLuzio: Right. Yeah. And that, that goes back to that awareness piece that you were talking about, where you have to be aware of, of what’s going on and why it, why these things are happening. You know, a hundred percent, you’re, you’re right. You know, in a crisis situation, whether it’s a firefight or you know, a, you know, firefighters or police officers or whoever, you know, military, you’re, you’re in the middle of the situation.

Yeah. You can’t break down right there. You get you. Are going to have to compartmentalize that so you can focus on the task at hand help other people, help yourself do all the things that you’re gonna need to do. But at some point, whatever it is that you’re dealing with in that situation, you’re gonna have to pull that back out and, and deal with that.

And it’s probably easier. I, I would imagine. If you, the sooner after that, that situation that you [00:47:00] can pull that back out and start addressing it, then waiting years, you know, months, years, decades before addressing it because that, that is just going to be filled with a lot more of those symptoms like you were talking about, you know, whether it’s the, the drinking or other self-destructive behaviors.

Right.

[00:47:16] Chris Irwin: and, and that that particular pattern that you’re talking about is suppression. That is essentially just bottling it up, your emotional energy

and over and over again.

[00:47:29] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:47:29] Chris Irwin: of think that that just goes away, like it just disappears on its own, but it’s not the, I use a couple different examples.

One’s a little more crude than the other one, but. the G-rated version is, it’s like shaking up a soda bottle. So that first instance, you shake a soda bottle up and you just leave the cap on, and then if you just keep doing that. Like if you shake

it up once, like they see you drop a soda bottle,

[00:47:55] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:47:56] Chris Irwin: done that. You like drop it and you’re like, Ugh. Gotta sort of like unscrew the [00:48:00] cap slowly to let that dissipate. And so that’s kind of what we’re talking about. That’s like, okay, I’m gonna deal with this almost immediately after it happens. It’s not gonna be explosive. I can bleed off some emotional energy.

And there’s various ways to do that. But then there’s a lot of people like, well, oh, oh, well just leave it on.

Like, I mean, we can’t deal with this right now. and

[00:48:21] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:48:22] Chris Irwin: and then if you keep doing that, it’s literally like, you never open that up and you just shake it every single time you, you grab

it, you just, I’m just gonna keep shaking this thing

[00:48:30] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And somehow it’ll magically get better.

[00:48:33] Chris Irwin: it’s

gonna explode.

[00:48:34] Scott DeLuzio: right. Yeah.

[00:48:36] Chris Irwin: it’s something, something will

happen. Where it explodes,

[00:48:39] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:48:40] Chris Irwin: this is what happens with people emotionally, is we, we pent up our own emotional energy and we do it over and over and over again. Like we, some guys die in the line of duty and we’re just like, you can’t deal with that right now.

And something else is happening. My, you know, my family’s and I’ve just, I’m just gonna bottle that up. then what happens? Like just the slightest [00:49:00] little tink, right? Someone says something and they fly off the handle. Scream at somebody or someone cuts ’em off in traffic and they’re swearing and

pointing their finger

[00:49:09] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:49:11] Chris Irwin: like, yeah,

[00:49:12] Scott DeLuzio: Right. And, and unfortunately when, when we do those types of things, we’re where we’re constantly shaking the bottle you know, that, that metaphor that you just used there you know, we’re constantly doing that to ourselves. And we’re, we’re not releasing the, the pressure. We’re not releasing the steam.

We start getting really good at doing the bad behaviors. And, and that’s just gonna become our fallback to you know, handle any situation regardless of, you know, good, bad and indifferent, whatever. We’re just gonna start continuing to do that same type of behavior and just as an example kind of another.

Shake the, the bottle kind of example. I, my son was a pitcher in baseball and he had just had this nasty habit of, of kind of just doing the sidearm thing.

[00:49:57] Chris Irwin: Okay.

[00:49:58] Scott DeLuzio: I said, I said, look, if you, if [00:50:00] you wanna get the ball over the plate more frequently, you’re, you’re gonna have to change that, that up a little bit.

And you know, if you keep practicing with that sidearm, you keep doing it like that, you’re gonna get really good. At throwing it sidearm and get really good at throwing balls and not strikes, you know you’re gonna get really good at that,

and that’s not where you wanna be. So. Work on it and, and figure out how you can get that ball over the plate a little bit more more frequently.

And that, and that was you know, kinda like that, that same idea where you’re gonna end up doing that same thing over and over and over again and you’re, you’re just gonna get good at doing the wrong thing. And it’s, it doesn’t good in this case. Doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. It’s just you’re, you’re gonna be, you know, the, the best at doing the wrong thing.

That’s not a good thing.

[00:50:45] Chris Irwin: And the, the thing with it is it has consequences. It is not a

’cause. There’d be people out there that say, well, so what?

[00:50:52] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,

[00:50:53] Chris Irwin: Like, okay, I’m good at

bottling it up. It’s like, what has consequences?

[00:50:56] Scott DeLuzio: sure.

[00:50:57] Chris Irwin: consequence free.

[00:50:58] Scott DeLuzio: Right. And it’s not just [00:51:00] a consequence to you, the individual who’s bottling it up. It, it could spill out into your relationships, into your work, into other areas of your life. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so that, those are the things that I, I think, you know, we we’re, I, I think we got the mental toughness stuff down.

You know, if you’re, you’re a veteran, you’re probably pretty good at, at the mental toughness. Not, not everybody maybe, but I think as a. As a community, we, we were probably pretty tough mentally but fitness I think we are lacking in, in that area quite a bit.

[00:51:30] Chris Irwin: I was.

[00:51:30] Scott DeLuzio: Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And, and it’s it’s a shame, you know, we, we go through all this training to.

Do our jobs, and we go through all this, and then we get out and we have no idea how to handle the stuff that we’ve been suppressing all the, all these years. And so, you know, for, for any veterans who, who are out there listening right now, who maybe they have some success in their, their lives, maybe their jobs are good and, you know, things like that.

On the outside, things are looking good, but inside they feel like they’re falling apart. You know, what’s [00:52:00] one small mental fitness practice that they can start today without, without feeling like they’re, they’re a total disaster. And they gotta, they gotta start from scratch. You know? What’s one, one thing that they can start today?

[00:52:09] Chris Irwin: always start

people with some kind of awareness

[00:52:12] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:52:13] Chris Irwin: some kind of meditative practice. I just think it has to be there. Now, meditation can be daunting for a few reasons. One, people can see it as not aligning with their personality. I know that was a case for me for a long time where I’m thinking, you know, people that

meditate, that’s not. like me, that’s

[00:52:31] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:52:32] Chris Irwin: hippies and whatever, you know, swamis gurus and like those kinds of people, not me. It doesn’t need to be associated with anything like that. It doesn’t need to be tied to any kind of spiritual tradition or anything like that. It is just simply the act of noticing what’s going on internally and, and being able to objectively look at that. To gain an awareness of it, I saw, I, I’ll start people further back than that where [00:53:00] it’s part of the problem we have these days is we have no we have no mental bandwidth, and we fill up any space we used to have where we used to be bored with. We just grab our phone and we look at that. We have a dis, we have a 24 7 distraction device that we can I’m just gonna stare at this thing.

And

that’s a real detriment to our

[00:53:23] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,

[00:53:23] Chris Irwin: health.

[00:53:24] Scott DeLuzio: that’s right.

[00:53:25] Chris Irwin: doesn’t always have to be, but the fact that we, we don’t just spend any time with, with ourselves ever. And then we wonder why we have trouble going to sleep at night. ’cause it’s the one time where all of a sudden you’re just alone with your thoughts and you’re trying to like process absolutely everything from the day because you’ve have, you’ve spent

no other time letting that happen.

[00:53:46] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:53:47] Chris Irwin: So I start with people with just a, like a seven. I do a lot of seven minute practices. I find that’s kind of a goldilock zone because for people it doesn’t seem that daunting. Five minutes can be a little bit too short, 10 minutes. Some people. [00:54:00]

You know that thwarts, some

people, they have an aversion to, that feels long. Seven minutes is like, okay, I can do that. It’s kinda like the seven minute abs thing from, there’s nothing about Mary. But seven minutes of just do nothing.

Just sit there,

[00:54:16] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:54:17] Chris Irwin: get rid of all the distractions. Get rid of your phone. You can use it as a timer if you want, but just sit there for seven minutes.

Go sit outside. Or sit in a chair in your house or something like that just what you notice. See what comes up. You know, that’s kind of where I start. People at is that kind of stuff. And slowing down too. That’s the other thing. Just slow down. Everything is done. We, this is part of our hustle culture. And it’s the same kind of message that you get with all the go harder, get up earlier. And again, I’m not saying that that’s a bad message all the time. Like if you [00:55:00] want something in life, you gotta work hard for it. If you wanna, you know, getting up early and going to workout, that’s great. Like, that’s good. when it turns into just like go, go, go, go, go faster, more, more optimize like all this, this kind of messaging, again, we’re like ramping up our nervous system. We’re doing all these things to ourselves that make it harder to look at ourselves, to self-analyze and, and to get into much more of a parasympathetic state too.

We we’re constantly in this kind of sympathetic activated fight or flight. Nervous system status, and like we gotta learn how to downshift. So slowing

down is a big one for me too.

[00:55:46] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

That, that’s huge. And for the younger listeners who maybe were born with a smartphone in their hand, this is actually what we used to do back in, you know, the eighties, nineties, you know, whatever. Like we, we would [00:56:00] just

kind of be bored and that was okay, you know, or, or you are bored and that caused you to get creative and go figure something else out.

Do go do and use your brain instead of just being told what to think and what to watch and whatever, because that’s the next thing that happens to pop up when you’re scrolling through, you know, Instagram or TikTok or whatever it is. So, so, yeah, we used to just be bored and we were okay with that,

[00:56:23] Chris Irwin: Yes.

If it helps, think of it as an accomplishment,

[00:56:27] Scott DeLuzio: yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:27] Chris Irwin: is, I mean, that’s the thing. People are,

[00:56:29] Scott DeLuzio: I.

[00:56:29] Chris Irwin: sort of fed this thing. It’s like if you’re not accomplishing something at. Every single free second you have of the

day, you’re failing on some level. It’s like, well,

[00:56:38] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:56:38] Chris Irwin: if that’s your mindset, okay, this is an accomplishment. That is an

accomplishment.

[00:56:43] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. You accomplish being bored and that’s a, that’s a good thing.

[00:56:48] Chris Irwin: Yeah. You’re

[00:56:48] Scott DeLuzio: I, think,

[00:56:48] Chris Irwin: something by yourself.

[00:56:50] Scott DeLuzio: yeah. Yeah.

Your, your brain will definitely shift gears and and that’s great. Well.

Chris, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show today and, and join us and you

know, share all [00:57:00] your, your stuff with the Navy Seal Foundation and everything else that you have going on.

Where’s the best place that listeners can go to get in touch to find out more e either about the Navy Seal Foundation. I know you mentioned their website before, but anywhere else for them or, you know, for you personally? For, for the mental fitness.

[00:57:15] Chris Irwin: foundation.org

[00:57:16] Scott DeLuzio: Yep.

[00:57:17] Chris Irwin: website that’s got links to all of our social media and every, everything else about us. website is this chris irwin.com, T-H-I-S-C-H-R-I-S-I-R-W-I-N. All eyes. same thing that’s got links to everything. It’s got links to my platform. I’ve got a book coming out that’s all about this stuff.

It’s called Facing the Mind Killers. I don’t know when it’ll be out at some point. Hopefully before the end of the year. I, it keeps getting

pushed back a little bit, but that’s my fault. So

[00:57:43] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:57:44] Chris Irwin: point the finger at anybody else there. But yeah, I’m this Chris Erwin across the internet social media website, and

that’s the best place for people to

find me.

[00:57:53] Scott DeLuzio: Well. Sounds great. Well, Chris, thanks again for coming on. Really did appreciate the conversation and look forward to chatting with you again in the future.

[00:57:59] Chris Irwin: [00:58:00] Awesome. Thanks Scott.

[00:58:00] Scott DeLuzio: right.

The uniform comes off, but the pressure can stay wired into your body, your habits, and the way you react to everyday life. This conversation touches on something many veterans know all too well: being trained to push through anything, only to realize that the same mindset can break down when the fight becomes internal.

Chris Irwin shares how his path from Navy SEAL to nonprofit leader and mental fitness advocate forced him to confront survivor’s guilt, anxiety, panic attacks, chronic illness, and the limits of chasing an outside fix. He also explains the work of the Navy SEAL Foundation, from family support and scholarships to transition help, physical health programs, and care for families of the fallen.

The deeper pull of this episode is Chris’s Rare Sense framework. He breaks down why mental toughness is valuable, but incomplete, and why awareness is the first real step toward changing the patterns that keep veterans stuck. For anyone who looks squared away on the outside while feeling off inside, this one offers a grounded place to begin.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Scott DeLuzio: Post-traumatic stress can leave your body reacting as though danger never ended. Sleep disappears, anxiety stays high, relationships feel the strain, and painful memories can influence everyday interactions. The goal is not to erase what happened or lose an important part of your story. It should be instead to keep the memory without letting it control your nervous system, your family, or your future.

[00:00:26] Our guest today, Dr. Eugene Lipov, joins me to explain why he believes PTSD should be called post-traumatic stress injury, and how a procedure known as a stellate ganglion block may calm the fight or flight response. He shares a personal loss that led him to his work, explains what patients experience during the procedure, and describes why treatment should continue with therapy and other support afterwards.

[00:00:55] We also cover secondary trauma within families, the origin of the term, the [00:01:00] God shot, the emotional weight attached to traumatic memories, and the steps a veteran should take when choosing a stellate ganglion block provider. This conversation provides a look at the procedure, including its limits, its risks, costs, and the hope Dr.

[00:01:16] Lipov believes it can offer. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to take a moment to raise awareness for something deeply important to our community, the Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation. This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington, D.C. to honor the service members, families, and civilians who are impacted by the global war on terrorism.

[00:01:36] This memorial will be both a tribute to those who have served and a way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come. If you’d like to learn more or find out how you can support their mission, visit GWOTmemorialfoundation.org. Now let’s get into today’s episode.

[00:01:52]

[00:02:06] Scott DeLuzio: Dr. Lipov very happy to have you here. Welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here.

[00:02:12] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Thank you very much for having me.

[00:02:14] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and likewise honor for me to, to talk with someone like yourself and we’ll, we’ll get more into, you know, what you do and all that stuff in, in just a minute here.

[00:02:24] But for the listeners who maybe are new to your work and not familiar with you, could you maybe just give a brief intro about yourself and you know, share how your path led from, you know, kind of where you started to where you are today.

[00:02:35] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Sure. So I, I was born in Ukraine and my father was flyer in World War ii, and I’ll become a parent by this is relevant, and out of a hundred, out of 10,000 people in his squadron a hundred made it home. So he had a significant. Problem or PTSD, and he was interesting gentleman to grow up with. So he [00:03:00] gave PTSD to my mother that’s technically called secondary PTSD, and she took her life.

[00:03:05] So I, he was a physician. My mother was a physician to, my brothers a physician. So I went to medical school and I was gonna be a surgeon and I went from surgery. To anesthesia after my mother’s death. So then, you know, before in surgery I did trauma surgery and stuff like that. So then I got to anesthesia.

[00:03:25] From anesthesia. I became a pain physician. As a pain physician. I was taking care of some women who had health flashes, and I figured out that Ella Gion. That’s an injection in the neck, takes away hot flashes. Then I had some pushback on that and then it becomes relevant to what we’re talking about.

[00:03:42] So I was trying to understand why it worked for hot flashes. In the process of evaluating that I was able to determine that telling England Block, which is numbing up the nerves in the neck, takes away PTSD in about five to 10 minutes. So. I published it in [00:04:00] 2008. First patient was treated actually 20 years ago now, and then this paper made it to Walter Reed where it was replicated.

[00:04:07] And since then, it been replicated a number of places. And Fort Bragg and places like that are the biggest user of this procedure in the military. So about 10 to 15,000 special forces guys been treated. With this approach and the reason I think there’s a place for somebody like me, I’m not a psychiatrist, and in fact I’m Antip psychiatry, I would say to the best I can be.

[00:04:33] And so that the idea is that PTSD and everybody’s talking about PTSD and. It’s an invisible wound and it’s gonna be like that forever, blah, blah, blah. I don’t take that approach at all. So to me, number one, PTSD is a visible wound. You can actually see it if you have the right scan. So if you close your eyes and you don’t see it, well open your eyes.

[00:04:55] So it’s like an x-ray, right? So if someone has a broken leg, but that’s [00:05:00] before the x-rays, like it’s an invisible wound, but life hurts. Well, now we have advanced scanners. You can actually see a change in the brain. So. SD is real. I think it needs to be re named to PTSI post stress injury and I’ve been working on that very hard.

[00:05:17] So in fact, if your listeners are interested in helping that change they can go to its itts pts.com. So the leader that has been trying to change that name in the army was Elli four Star General. In 2013, he went to. American Psychiatric Surgeon, please change the name ’cause it’s biologic. It’s real.

[00:05:38] We did a study that shows quite definitively that if you change the name, the stigma goes away. If the Stig stigma goes away, people will not get killed themselves. Direct relation. Right. The other thing is if you look at current, and I know I’m giving you a little more of an answer, but I think that’s overview, it’s nice background.

[00:05:59] If you don’t mind where [00:06:00] we can start. So there was a paper written in 2011 in jama, which is a big journal of Medical, medical Medical station by Dr. Hoag Ho’s psychiatrist and Walter Reed. And he basically said current therapeutics, which is psychotherapy and pharmaceuticals have a 40 to 45% efficacy rate.

[00:06:19] Which is suboptimal. I’d say. With a placebo being 35 to 40%, you’re not talking much and it takes a long time to work. The main problem with current therapeutics takes a long time and the compliance is very low, so people don’t like to do that. So this procedure works in 10, 15 minutes, and also it’s not really difficult, right?

[00:06:41] You don’t have to talk about your mommy or anything. Horrible thing that happened to you. You could talk about it later. And it’s, in fact what we find is after we can calm down and find like nervous system, people can stay chill. If people can stay chill, then they can do the processing. [00:07:00] They need psychotherapy and they can come off a lot of the meds.

[00:07:04] So what happens, from my perspective, and I’ve written a lot, lot of papers on that and presented it when somebody has trauma. Military trauma, sexual abuse, whatever, long-term bullying, any of that. What it does it activates fighting flight, nervous system, fighting flight, nervous system, then grows extra nerve fibers in the brain, which produce more norepinephrine.

[00:07:27] As all of those things are percolating in the brain, norepinephrine is what gives people symptomatology such as they cannot sleep. They’re anxious, they have a trigger finger. I mean, they’re always on edge. They are crankin needle, my technical term 85% of men who have sexual dysfunction from that, all of that together are the symptoms of PTSD.

[00:07:50] Whether you call it PTSD or PTSI, whatever. Just look at the symptoms, you know, if somebody has broken leg, doesn’t matter. You call it, you can call it broken leg [00:08:00] disorder. Okay? It’s still a broken leg. So to me, in fact, I did a TEDx in January of this year, and the point there was. Disorder. Postex in disorder disorder is what’s wrong with you. Injury is what happened to you, right? If you went and called the car and you got shut down and you had IED killed by your friends, your brain has been rewired. So the reason people cannot just snap out of it because the brain has now been rewired. There’s too many sympathetic nerve fibers. So if anybody would like to argue with me scientifically, bring it sympathetic nervous system.

[00:08:43] I know more about than most people for sure. I’ve written papers than that. I’m not a, I’m not a psychiatrist, right? So I’m not being held down by the same kind of. Principles that people have been applied for so many years, blah, blah, blah. But sympathetic nervous system is stuck in that position, and that’s why they [00:09:00] have those symptoms.

[00:09:01] So when you do the procedure in the neck, what happens is two things happen immediately. Norepinephrine drops so people can feel markedly better in 10, 15 minutes. It’s not because I’m giving sedative, it’s because I’m just lowering down sympathetic nervous system. Two long-term effect is it rewires a nervous system to Prera state.

[00:09:23] In fact, there was an article written by Dr. Alki in Long Beach, California va, where they did PET scans, which is one of those advanced scans I was talking about. And it shows that amygdala, which is a part of the brain that controls PTSD, is deactivated after the injection.

[00:09:41] Scott DeLuzio: Oh, okay.

[00:09:42] Dr. Eugene Lipov: So you can actually see physical changes that happens in the brain.

[00:09:47] It’s rapid, it’s fast, and it’s effective. And the compliance is very high. If somebody comes in, they get a procedure, poof. They feel good. If people feel good, they know there’s gonna be able to get out of this [00:10:00] PTSD hail or PTSI hail, whatever term you want to use. And that’s a whole thing. And the other part is like I’m very big into secondary PTSD, which is.

[00:10:10] When I treat guys or women from military, I like to try to treat their spouses or significant others. ’cause it’s like STD, you treat one partner, the other one’s gonna get it back. So you treat both. Sometimes I actually treat the children so I, you know, I’ve had sometimes bring five people in. I treat everyone the same day.

[00:10:30] ’cause if everybody comes down, then that’s much happier household. Right? So. So if the guy is not a crankin air. That’s great right there. In fact, there was an interesting YouTube video, which I wrote a chapter about this gentleman was a seal. He stepped an IED, almost took his leg off, you know, really unfortunate.

[00:10:52] So they show him there’s a beautiful video of that. His name’s Luke look and then. In the beginning, you know, it’s [00:11:00] like his wife said, yeah, sometimes he’s violent with me, sometimes this, and then he has a procedures. I interview him a month later and he says, you know what? PTD symptoms are gone. But that really is not the most important thing.

[00:11:12] The thing that really was good is I can get laid again. So the point is, you know, sounds trivial, but it’s not right. Cohesiveness, oxytocin. A 30 5-year-old guy says, you know, it’s like my blood vessels are fine. Why is this not thing? Why is this thing not on? So I wrote a whole chapter explaining why this whole thing is not on.

[00:11:34] Turns out again, everything’s already been studied. I just found it so, so norepinephrine levels kinda interesting. So if somebody has dill, norepinephrine, which is a fine flight, there’s no sexual interest, like who cares? Optimal yha. Like if a lot of, a lot of men had to go into battle, they come in that they had a significant increase in that libido.

[00:11:57] Too much no [00:12:00] interest. So if you think about it’s adoptive, if you’re running from the tiger, the way I explain it to the guys, you don’t want anything sticking out. Poof,

[00:12:08] Scott DeLuzio: right,

[00:12:09] Dr. Eugene Lipov: what do one, right? So the point is, after all rated my part. The point though is that. There’s hope. You can get yourself back.

[00:12:21] You can get your function back, which is mental function. If you don’t sleep, your mental function is off.

[00:12:26] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:12:27] Dr. Eugene Lipov: You know, sexual function. You can be comfortable in your own skin. You don’t need to drink. And you know, my last, last thing I’ll tell you about my favorite or least favorite diagnosis besides PTSD term is alcohol abuse disorder. It. Yeah, it makes it sound like it’s a separate condition. It’s a symptom. So you’re taking your trouble for a swim, but they’re gonna come back. So I’ll give you a real example. We took care of Lieutenant and seals. The guy was drinking a liter of [00:13:00] vodka a day for 10 years, please. Sturdy fellow, right? We do the block.

[00:13:06] Poof. PTSD goes away. Not a drink for the next two years. Because his machinery was not riding 5,000 per hour. He didn’t have to calm it down with alcohol and all the other drugs.

[00:13:19] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:13:20] Dr. Eugene Lipov: So there go. That’s kind of my broad overview, just to give you all the kind of who I am and why I am here.

[00:13:27] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and this is something that I have heard about for years now. I’ve heard other people who’ve used it and had great success with it. And, you know, I just, I wanted to bring you on the show as you know, kind of the the expert on, on the stoic ganglion block because you know, I want, I want other folks to know.

[00:13:49] That this is an option and that it can be, you know, that quick that you go in, you, you do the procedure and you walk out of the room [00:14:00] feeling a thousand times better than you did when you walked in the room, and it’s not like a therapy session where you have to go spill your guts out to a therapist over weeks and months and years.

[00:14:10] Dr. Eugene Lipov: thing I’ll tell you the two things I’ll tell you. This is how I usually talk with the guys, given I used to be a trauma surgeon, so I’m very direct.

[00:14:17] So, so I tell people I don’t care about trauma. You had, it doesn’t matter. Was that called the car? Was that being shot in the street? Was that rape?

[00:14:26] Does not matter. The patient does not need to cooperate to do a lot of work. Everybody’s been trained. You have to do a lot of work. Soul searching. Yes. After you calm the body down, it’s like if you have a broken leg, you don’t put a backpack on and go round up and down the mountain, fix the leg, then rehab.

[00:14:46] Don’t rehab before the broken leg. Right. So that I, I think that’s the key. And you know, it’s like, it’s one of the big things, you know, the other thing people go, it’s too good to be true. It’s impossible. Something that’s simple [00:15:00] to be actually effective.

[00:15:01] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:15:02] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Well, I mean, maybe, so here’s a book I wrote with an amazing writer, the got shot. So I’m doing a plug of course for my book, but I’ll, I’ll tell you why it wrong. So the GWOT shot, the term was introduced by a Marine. So he came in and he said, I’d like have GWOT shot. I said, what? What is that? I, I, I don’t know what that is. He said, well, people in my unit call it the Gutshot because the only entity that can change lives is God.

[00:15:34] So this is the God shot.

[00:15:35] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:15:35] Dr. Eugene Lipov: You know, I love the name so much, and that’s why we made, you know, that’s why we made that book. And, you know, I, I love the brain. All of those, I mean, I designed and cover, but I, I think the whole thing is, especially considering my mother’s death and my father’s struggles, that is really, has been a huge focus for me because it’s such a personal thing.

[00:15:59] Scott DeLuzio: [00:16:00] Sure. Yeah,

[00:16:00] absolutely. Yeah. And that’s where a lot of you know, great innovations. Great. You know, investigations into different procedures and things like that. They, they come from, you know, a personal experience that you know, you, you had a personal problem that you were looking into and you’re like, Hey, this would be great if there was a solution to it.

[00:16:16] And not only just on a personal level, but for. All these, these soldiers and, and not just soldiers, but you know, anybody who’s dealing with some sort of trauma, like you said, it doesn’t matter where the trauma came from. You know, anyone who’s dealing with that, it would be great if there was this, you know, kind of, I don’t wanna say quick fix because it’s, you know, something that you obviously need to do some sort of work after the fact, but it, but it

[00:16:38] Dr. Eugene Lipov: quick. Yeah, yeah. Quick, quick fix implies not lessing, right? Quick fix also implies lying like quick fix diet gonna come right back. That’s not the case, but I mean, my encouragement is it does work by itself, but it works best if you have a therapist. But the, the key point after we do the block.[00:17:00]

[00:17:00] People can participate in therapy. They can participate being present. They participate being, having sex. They can participate being in normal life, and they can also reduce the medication because their body is not craving it. That’s what I’m talking about. It just, it’s a very basic, so if you think about what a sympathetic system is, is designed, if you’re riding from the tiger, is designed to keep you alive. That’s what it is. So what happens is if you are at the edge, something crazy happened to you, your system remembers it. That’s the whole thing. It’s designed to remember. In fact, what people don’t think about, which I do, is that you can pass PTSD on to two, three generations. Children can have that. So my father had PTSD, he gave me DNA genetics or epigenetic.

[00:17:51] I was more sensitive to develop PTSD because of that and my mileage death. That was quite the event that pushed me over.

[00:17:59] Scott DeLuzio: [00:18:00] sure, sure. Now, for someone who goes in and gets this procedure and assuming they, they go do some sort of therapy after the fact, after getting this procedure, what is the the rate of I’m, I’m trying to think the right way

[00:18:14] Dr. Eugene Lipov: You wanna see how effective it’s,

[00:18:16] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. How well, how effective, but, but do they need to go back and do it again?

[00:18:19] You know, is, is there like a, a term of, of time that, that it’s effective for, I guess maybe that, that’s a better way to say it.

[00:18:26] Dr. Eugene Lipov: I think that’s a fair que well, the, you’re asking basically longevity of it. How long has it last and how effective is it? Those big questions. Right? I, I got asked that every day. You can imagine. So efficacy rate is probably 80 to 85%. Meaning if you come in these symptoms, you know, it’s assuming we do right and left side, you’re looking at probably 80 to 85% success rate.

[00:18:50] So we have, we definitely have a 15 one 5% failure rate. There’s no question, anybody who tells you what they do is a hundred percent effective, which I’ve heard quite a bit.[00:19:00]

[00:19:00] Scott DeLuzio: Okay. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:01] Dr. Eugene Lipov: You can make a decision on that. It’s, I don’t think that’s possible, but yeah, whatever. Longevity. Longevity is a variable. We took care of a guy 17 years ago who had to kill line.

[00:19:14] He had to shoot a child, 12-year-old kid in line of duty in the Iraq. He was late in his explosive belt. He’s still doing well 17 years later, as far as I know. That’s pretty cool. Equally. We had a policeman that was doing great for a year in Chicago, and then he had to kill a not a particularly nice individual in line of duty, and he had to combat.

[00:19:37] So it depends on your biology. It’s three things. Biology, how do you GWOT build it? What do you do afterward? Did you do psychotherapy? You do meditation, you do the right things. And number three, what happens to you if everything is great? Your chance coming back to see me is significantly lower. If you’re not doing great mm, then, then you’re not doing great.

[00:19:59] Right. [00:20:00] You’re gonna have, you gonna have issues.

[00:20:01] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Sure. And that, that does make sense too because you know, exposure to another trauma, you know, like another line of duty

[00:20:09] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Yeah. It’s not all about me, right. We, we, we are not, we’re not taking part of the brain out. We’re not knee in the head.

[00:20:15] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:20:16] Dr. Eugene Lipov: We are just resetting it, but if your computer gets stuck, you reset it. How often does it get stuck? Depends how much you use it, right? Depends. The software you run depends if you do the updates and blah, blah, blah.

[00:20:30] Computer in the brain is very similar issues, so it’s why rebooting the brain is very similar.

[00:20:38] Scott DeLuzio: Right. And, and the nice thing about reboot, rebooting a, a computer or your brain or, or whatever, is you don’t forget about everything that happened. You don’t lose all the memories of, of everything, but just how you. Handle those and how you process them are going to be different. Right. And

[00:20:56] Dr. Eugene Lipov: That’s exactly right. Yeah, that’s exactly right.

[00:20:58] Scott DeLuzio: so that, that’s a, the nice thing [00:21:00] about it, because I, I know like for me, having the experiences that I’ve had, I don’t want to forget about those because they’re an important piece of my story and who I am and everything.

[00:21:10] But I don’t want them controlling my everyday interactions either, you know?

[00:21:16] Dr. Eugene Lipov: let me give you a story. Remember I told you about the guy who had to shoot a child line of duty?

[00:21:20] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:21:21] Dr. Eugene Lipov: His name is Jason, a lovely man, so, so what he remember, so you can imagine how vivid that was, right? So he shoots a child, a body, pieces of the body, hits him in the chest on his flag jacket. I mean, it’s like, that’s it.

[00:21:39] I mean, I, I, I can’t imagine anything particularly worse, but, you know, maybe it’s possible. Anyway, so after the block, 15 minutes later, he says, here’s what I remember, Doug. Three things. Number one, I was going a hundred miles per hour. Now I’m going 25 miles up. Easy. Nice and simple. One, two, I [00:22:00] remember what happened, but I, there’s no color.

[00:22:02] Now it’s black and white. That’s the key. Now, why does that happen? Amygdala remembers. Anxiety and emotion. Hippocampus remembers something different, remembers facts. That’s why we deactivate the amygdala and that’s why you could remember it. So it’s important to remember that’s what makes you human right memory, what you’ve done.

[00:22:25] But it doesn’t mean you have to be, you don’t have to drive crazy on that.

[00:22:29] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:31] Dr. Eugene Lipov: So that’s my perspective.

[00:22:33] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. No, and that makes sense too. Now for, for someone who’s listening to this thinking, you know, maybe this is the right thing for me, maybe it’s not, I don’t know. But who, who is and maybe who isn’t a good candidate for, for the gang? Bach.

[00:22:45] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Very simple. I mean, so the simplicity itself, so there are two components. One physical, two mental.

[00:22:52] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:22:53] Dr. Eugene Lipov: So physically if somebody has a bad heart, bad lung bleeding disorders. Things [00:23:00] like that. We cannot do it. You cannot do it. Think of an epidural or something simple that pain doctors do. You’re not gonna do procedure and somebody has a bad heart or bleeding problems or an infection.

[00:23:10] So no. My other deal is no neck, no shot. Somebody comes in and they’re five minute pounds and there’s no neck. What am I gonna put needle? We’re not doing that. So that’s, no, that’s, that’s not safe for anyone. Psychiatrically. If somebody is actively suicidal, they have to be in the hospital. We’re not gonna do that.

[00:23:33] Also, there’s certain bipolars that we don’t do, but everybody else, it’s also helps. TBI, which is a very, it’s 30% to 40% of people coming back from. Afghanistan have TBI or BTBI, which is blast my brain injury. So the seems to help that as well. So the point is those are the patients. So the symptoms that, a big question you should always ask somebody, gives you whatever kind of story, [00:24:00] what’s symptoms is gonna help you, right?

[00:24:03] That’s a fair question, right?

[00:24:04] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:24:05] Dr. Eugene Lipov: It seems to help sleep a lot. Number one, indication of ELLA in China’s sleep dysfunction. PTSD, sleep. Interesting. Anxiety, feeling of doom, like something bad is going to happen, feeling of doom. Those are the main symptoms. So anxiety, being on agile all the time, those kind of things, but feeling of doom, sleep, all of those things that seems to very much help with because if you think about it.

[00:24:36] It’s really easy to understand if you almost got hit by a bus, let’s say, you know, your heart is beating fast, right? You’re not sleeping particularly good. You’re looking around every, you’re hypervigilant. Those are signs and symptoms of fight and flight, nervous system being rubbed up. But if it’s stopped in the rub opposition, that’s what you’re looking.

[00:24:54] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Okay. So it, it seems like it, it’s a good, most, [00:25:00] most people could probably say that. Yeah, I’m probably a good candidate outside of the, the conditions that you mentioned, you know, as far as, you know, heart, heart issues you know, things like that. And so. You know, this is a nice this is a nice thing for many people that might be dealing with some sort of trauma going through the experience you know, the day of the procedure or, or even before, if there’s some, you know, initial consultations and that type of thing.

[00:25:25] Walk us through what that experience is like. You know, the procedure, how it feels, any side effects, those, those types of things. So people have a realistic expectation around like. What exactly it is that they’re, they’re looking for looking forward to, with this.

[00:25:39] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Sure. So I’m a Chief Medical Officer for Stella Mental Health. We have, we have 24 sites in United States, one Israel and four in Australia. So basically we have an intake team. So intake team will ask you about, you know, they have bleeding problems, they have heart problems, you have to be healthy. They ask me [00:26:00] mental questions and we set the person up.

[00:26:02] Patient comes in, we give ’em a choice, least some sites give you a choice. You’re going to sleep or not being sedation or not. Some people are very freaked out by needles. A lot of like me don’t care. So we listen to the patient and then they come in. I had two sets myself, so. I think I’ve, it’s helped me a lot.

[00:26:22] So basically what happens is when you do an injection, the patient’s lying in on on their back. We use ultrasound to find right areas. We do little markings on the skin, numb up the skin. I clean it. Then medically, yeah. To make sure there’s no bugs. And then under ultrasound, we put needle in one spot on another side and we put bupivacaine in.

[00:26:47] That’s another thing people ask me, what is the drug you’re putting it in? Bupivacaine is a local anesthetic that’s been used since 1970s. That’s what’s used for pregnant women. So you know, it’s safe, it’s been around, [00:27:00] whatever. There are rare complications that could happen. Bleeding, seizures, things like that.

[00:27:04] Now. All of, at least our doctors are all trained to avoid it and treat it. If that happens, it hasn’t happened to me, but it’s possible. Right. I

[00:27:15] you’re prepared for that. And in about five to 7% of the people they can get horses. Like, I can’t talk like this, that last about two to four hours.

[00:27:25] That’s ’cause one of the nerves goes to sleep. Also, everybody that we put in the right area, they will have a droopy eyeball like this. It’ll be rad and the pupil will be smaller. That’s called Horner sign. It means we not up the right area. So it is a good thing. It’s not a complication. We expect that. In fact, if it doesn’t happen, which happens occasionally to me and others, we take people back to the operating room, make sure it does happen.

[00:27:51] So it does occurs, right? And then a lot of times people feel significantly better. Right after. [00:28:00] So basically it’s three things can happen. One, they feel great. Done. Thank you very much. Two, maybe I was like, eh, I’m a little better. Maybe. Maybe yes, maybe no. And about one to 0.5% people may get actually revved up from that.

[00:28:15] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:28:17] Dr. Eugene Lipov: So if they feel great. Goodbye. Thank you. Maybe, or maybe effect. We do the other side, left side, if they get wrapped up, we do. The other side, when it does, comes down the other side because sometimes when you do one side, the other tries to compensate. It makes people wrapped up.

[00:28:34] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:28:35] Dr. Eugene Lipov: That’s about, I mean, that’s, that’s the reality.

[00:28:38] We watch people about an hour, make sure they’re okay. They can walk, they can get, they can get a little monkey. As far as walking for the first 15, 20 minutes, that’s all normal. Occasionally people can get a na arm. I have sometimes local aesthetic escapes a little bit, not a big deal.

[00:28:54] Scott DeLuzio: Okay. And that, that wears off in a short amount of time

[00:28:58] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Eight hours? [00:29:00] Yeah.

[00:29:00] Scott DeLuzio: Okay, so, so it’s not, not a long term thing that, that people have to worry about for, for anything

[00:29:05] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Typically not.

[00:29:07] Scott DeLuzio: yeah. Yeah. So that, I mean, it’s, to me, sounds like there’s. A lot of upsides to this. If, if people are experiencing these types of symptoms with, you know, whether it’s PTSD or you know, whatever it is they’re, they’re dealing with and looking for a relief from that this sounds like there’s a lot of upside to it.

[00:29:25] Next question really is you know, for anybody who’s listening to this right now, if they wanna pursue this what’s the best way to find a qualified provider? I know you mentioned that you, you know, your whole team and everything is all, you know, qualified and trained and everything. What, what are the things that they should be looking for?

[00:29:39] You know, when they’re, they’re looking for somebody to do this procedure?

[00:29:43] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Fair enough. So, well, of course, I assume our company is the best. Stella mental health.com that can help you set it up. Number of VAs are doing it, it’s inconsistent. So and so when you do talk to people, there’s plenty [00:30:00] of people doing cell now, so there are three ways. The original way of doing it was just palpation landmarks.

[00:30:08] That’s how I did in 87. If somebody’s, so if you, if you interview clinician’s, gonna be doing it. You want to know what guidance do you use If it’s fingers run. Do not do that.

[00:30:18] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:19] Dr. Eugene Lipov: I’ve seen that done recently and I just, stupid, in my opinion, x-ray I don’t think is as good as ultrasound. Still acceptable if that’s what you have available and they’re good at it.

[00:30:30] Great. Ultrasound is the best, in my opinion. ’cause see blood vessels better. Also the people I prefer is people like myself, which is. Anesthesiologist, pain trained, double boarded, anesthesia and pain. You can have a number of physiatrists who are also boarded and pain. And then the question is, how many have you done if you’ve done two mm, I’ve done 5,000 by now.

[00:30:55] I’ve been doing it since 87, but I’m talking about it [00:31:00] should be over 10 or 20 or 50, something like that. And ask, what kind of problems have you had? I think those are reasonable expectations to ask.

[00:31:08] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:09] Dr. Eugene Lipov: And that some people just will not do it for PSD, they’ll only do it for pain and don’t be surprised and go, I don’t do it for that.

[00:31:15] Nah, I don’t wanna deal with psychiatric conditions. Psychiatric patients are pain the ass, I don’t deal with ’em. Okay. Alright. Well that’s, it’s their decision. I mean, they’re clinicians.

[00:31:25] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Absolutely. So, I mean, those, those are good things to keep in mind. So, we’ll, we’ll, you know, for the listeners, keep, keep all those things in mind. You know, take, take a look at their credentials and ask the questions. You know, don’t, don’t just. Assume that because you’re talking to this doctor that they automatically are the expert and, you know, know everything about everything.

[00:31:46] There’s

[00:31:47] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Having a nice pseudo doesn’t mean they’re good clinicians,

[00:31:49] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:31:50] Dr. Eugene Lipov: So you do wanna ask that. I mean, those are basic questions. And if somebody gets very annoyed with you, I’m sorry, how can you ask such a thing? I [00:32:00] would run.

[00:32:00] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:32:01] Dr. Eugene Lipov: A, a, a comfortable physician, competent physician should be able to give you a reasonable answer to a reasonable question,

[00:32:06] Scott DeLuzio: sure.

[00:32:07] Dr. Eugene Lipov: right?

[00:32:08] I mean, what, what are the guidance? I mean, asking what guidance are you using? It’s, it’s the first thing to ask.

[00:32:14] Scott DeLuzio: That that seems pretty reasonable. And if they can’t or won’t answer

[00:32:18] that.

[00:32:18] Dr. Eugene Lipov: right. If you can see, you’ll, you should be able to do a good job. If we cannot see, probably not as good. Right? Straightforward.

[00:32:25] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that’s just asking to, you know, am I gonna get lucky if I get, get it in the right spot or not? And

[00:32:31] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Yeah, I mean, I think I can certainty in 20.

[00:32:36] Scott DeLuzio: Sure, yeah. If you have the tools available, why not use them? And, and as far as costs and, and things like that are, are concerned, and I, I know the, the answer’s probably gonna be a varies, you know, depending on insurance and all the, these different things. But I know there’s, there’s some access through the VA and, and things like that.

[00:32:53] But are there there other programs that, that allow folks to get access to this? You know. Whether it’s [00:33:00] through insurance or other things like that. You know, what, what do people what can people expect as far as ACT is con is concerned?

[00:33:06] Dr. Eugene Lipov: You can expect a lot of variability. Some VAs will do it. Some VAs have a. Some will not. Some will have a long line, a long line waiting and some will not. I don’t know. There’s a lot of non-for-profits, especially in especially special forces that will sponsor this. Courts cost, normal costs between 900 to a thousand dollars.

[00:33:27] I think that’s what we charge per side. Some, I’ve seen somebody, actually, I had to call and try to take care of that. He wanted $12,000 up front. The veterans family was gonna mor mortgage the house to do three of them. So I called them up and it was not a pretty discussion. And that’s wrong. That, that, that, that right there.

[00:33:55] Mm-hmm. That, that, that’s no good. That that’s, I think that’s just that awful. So there is a [00:34:00] lot of variability. In the cost, I think, but I think a hundred thousand dollars per side is probably, seems to be pretty reasonable at this time. I really don’t know what people are charging. I don’t know. So, you know, it’s like use chat or Google and see who, who will do it, at what price.

[00:34:17] I mean, you could do easy research nowadays, right? Simple. But as far as insurance, conventional insurance will not pay for it. Typically, they, the exceptions, I don’t know.

[00:34:28] Scott DeLuzio: Well, it, it, it’s good to know, and the reason why I, I asked about that is for the, the case that you just brought up there is, you know, I don’t want someone going and going to a provider that’s gonna charge ’em 10, 20, $30,000 for something like this if it’s, if it’s available for, you know, nine, 900 to a thousand dollars or

[00:34:45] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Yeah, but Judge, no, that, in fact, if somebody does that, I send me the information, I’ll be happy to give him a call. That, that’s wrong, that that’s abuse, that, that, that gets to a different level.

[00:34:55] Scott DeLuzio: Yep.

[00:34:56] Dr. Eugene Lipov: that, that’s fine.

[00:34:57] Scott DeLuzio: exactly. Because I, I know sometimes people [00:35:00] will, will think of this like, this is gonna be the solution. I’m gonna be able to fix everything. If I, if I go and do this, I’ll pay anything. I don’t care. And, and they get there and they’re gonna, you know, lose everything. They, they,

[00:35:13] Dr. Eugene Lipov: yeah. But taking advantage of doesn’t mean it’s not gonna work, but taking advantage of somebody fiscally is really not a smart move. Right. I mean, that’s a, that’s a short term operation too.

[00:35:22] Scott DeLuzio: Right, exactly. And, and I, I don’t want any of the listeners out there to get taken advantage of, and that, that’s kind of why that, that question came up there. So, it’s perfect.

[00:35:32] so, so that, that’s great. Now as far as integration with other treatments, I know you mentioned therapy and, and things like that, so, so that, that’s obviously another option.

[00:35:42] What other treatments integrate together with thesal ganglion block nicely. What, what, what work? Well, are there other things like,

[00:35:50] Dr. Eugene Lipov: yeah, there’s a number of things. So number one, if somebody is in a bunch of psychiatric drugs, you wanna plan to start. What’s your plan of coming off of

[00:35:59] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:35:59] Dr. Eugene Lipov: [00:36:00] You should be able to stop most of those drugs if it’s going well. But it needs to be done under supervision of whoever’s giving it. It’s not like, it’s like, take away drugs, go away.

[00:36:08] No, no, no, no, no. You gotta go gentle. Psychotherapy. Absolutely. A meditation I think is great. Some people use psilocybin. I mean, it’s not readily available, but it’s certainly available to a lot of other people. You know, basically also. Vocational advice, like, you know, separation from the service could be very traumatic in a number of ways.

[00:36:35] You know, you have a lot of rights and you have a lot of, benefits. You should work with people who will help you navigate that. It’s a very complicated system. Navigating VA is a very complicated system, from what I understand.

[00:36:48] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:52] Dr. Eugene Lipov: help. A lot of veterans do not ask for help.

[00:36:54] Ask, well, there’s a lot of non-for-profits that will help you. There’s a lot. Also, if somebody is [00:37:00] suicidal who’s listening to this, please know there’s real hope. You don’t have to live with this continuously. So before you even think of doing something bad, think of the effect in others and there may be a way to fix it.

[00:37:14] This may be part of a big part of the solution. A lot of times I also integrate St and Ketamine together,

[00:37:20] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:37:20] Dr. Eugene Lipov: ketamine and Stella together as synergistic. Especially if somebody had B-T-B-R-T-B-I-I called SOF method for special effort force method, co figure. And then that has seemed to have worked very, very well for us.

[00:37:34] Scott DeLuzio: Excellent. Excellent. Well, it’s, and it’s good to know too because I, I know there are some people who are trying to balance, okay, which, which option do I choose? And it’s not necessarily a one or. You know, kind of thing. You, you can choose multiple options

[00:37:49] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Depends where you’re comfortable, but some people like hate the whole concept of psychedelics. Some people love psychedelics. Ibegain really has a lot of potential, but IGA can also kill [00:38:00] you. I mean, you gotta be careful. So when you do, I gain, do not do it in a cave. Make sure somebody’s monitoring you and that’s all being legit.

[00:38:08] Scott DeLuzio: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:38:09] Dr. Eugene Lipov: there is one place in Mexico that everybody seems to go to and you know, it’s like. Talk to your buddies, see who’s had a good experience. I mean, so this is how you could do it. A lot of times what they find is people who have EB gain have definitely sleeping after that. It helps addiction a lot, but it’s pretty brutal from what I understand.

[00:38:30] I’ve never done that, nor do I have an interest in doing it. But remember that, you know, everything has put upside and downside and then, you know, make sure you understand how to integrate.

[00:38:43] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:44] Dr. Eugene Lipov: To your buddies. See? See what works. See which play. I mean, it’s like, one thing I love about military people, they talk to each other and you know, they try to support each other.

[00:38:51] They help each other see what’s worked. I mean, see what kind of provider there is some providers which are amazing out there, and there are some providers who complete [00:39:00] bastards. So don’t go to people who are nasty.

[00:39:04] Scott DeLuzio: Exactly. Yeah. And, and the people who you either overcharge or don’t know what they’re doing and, and things like that.

[00:39:09] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Yeah. Or don’t care, like I care about veterans. My father was a veteran. I was a VA doctor for four years. I care very much about veterans and their families. And you, you know, the first time you talk to them nurse as opposed to like the, if some treats you like a piece of meat leave, go somewhere else.

[00:39:26] Scott DeLuzio: exactly. And, and so th this is all great advice and I, I do appreciate you coming on and sharing this, this advice. I think we’ve, we’ve covered quite a bit here in, in terms of you know, the treatment, how, how it works, what’s available, who’s, who’s a good candidate for it, and all that kind stuff. And I, I think this.

[00:39:44] Is just one of those options that I’ve, for the longest time I’ve wanted to have somebody on the show talking about this and, and here we are. So I’m, I’m so glad that you were able to come on and, and share your, your knowledge about this and and, and all that. So for the listeners who are [00:40:00] ready to go, they, they listened to this and they’re like, you know, this sounds like the, the right thing for me.

[00:40:04] What’s the best way to get in touch with you and, and find out more information about the, the procedure and how to move forward with you?

[00:40:10] Dr. Eugene Lipov: So it depends what you’re looking for. So if you go to stella mental health.com, you can set up procedure that that’s what you’re looking for. If you’d like to read all the sciences stuff, go to dr eugene lip.com.

[00:40:23] Scott DeLuzio: Perfect.

[00:40:24] Dr. Eugene Lipov: My YouTube is, you know, if you wanna subscribe to YouTube, I have tons of YouTube you can actually watch me hearing done. And I have a lot of other YouTube things there about like, you know, I presented this where, you know, so still Gland Block and a Commander from Police and I’ve done it and I, I did a grand rounds in. Harvard and MGH. So I mean, those kind of, there’s a lot of resources that people are interested.

[00:40:50] If you just go, you know, blah, blah, blah, not in the science part of it, how do I get it done? Just go to stella mental health.com. You’ll get that. It’s simple.

[00:40:59] Scott DeLuzio: [00:41:00] Excellent. Well, Dr. Lipov, thank you so much for coming on the show. I, I really do appreciate it and thank you for all the work that you’re doing. It’s definitely making a lot of changes in a, a lot of lives, so I appreciate it.

[00:41:10] Dr. Eugene Lipov: Thank you so much.

Post-traumatic stress can keep the body running at full speed long after the immediate danger has passed. Dr. Eugene Lipov describes how Stellate Ganglion Block (SGB) may calm that response and reduce symptoms such as sleep problems, anxiety, hypervigilance, and a persistent feeling of doom.

His interest in trauma treatment is deeply personal. His father lived with the effects of serving as a World War II pilot, and his mother later died by suicide after experiencing what he describes as secondary PTSD. That history shaped his work and his effort to have PTSD recognized as post-traumatic stress injury.

This episode explains how SGB is performed, why Dr. Lipov believes calming the nervous system can make therapy more productive, and how traumatic memories may remain while losing some of their emotional intensity. Scott also shares why he wants to remember the experiences that shaped him without allowing them to control his daily interactions.

Dr. Lipov discusses the origin of his book title The God Shot, the effects of trauma on spouses and children, realistic treatment limitations, potential side effects, and the importance of continued care. He also provides practical guidance for vetting SGB providers, evaluating procedure costs, and avoiding clinicians who use unsafe methods or pressure families into excessive payments.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Scott DeLuzio: Leaving the military often means adjusting to a very different pace of life and a shift in identity. That transition can feel more complicated when a long war ends in a way that raises difficult questions about leadership, accountability, and the systems that support those in uniform. Many veterans carry frustration, uncertainty, or a sense of that important issues were never fully addressed.

[00:00:22] Those feelings can be part of a broader process of reflection, engagement, and continued service in new forms. Our guest today, retired Army Officer Paul Darling, shares his perspective shaped by 27 years in uniform, a deployment to Afghanistan, time at the Pentagon, and his work with War 1 0 2 and the Tennessee State Guard.

[00:00:45] This conversation explores how military procurement. And leadership decisions may affect troops on the ground. How different people interpret accountability after conflict, and how veterans can look for direction and [00:01:00] community after leaving active duty. Before we get into this episode, though, I wanna take a moment to raise awareness for something that is deeply important to our community.

[00:01:07] The Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation. This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, families, and civilians who are impacted by the global war on terrorism. This memorial will be both a tribute to those who served and way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come.

[00:01:26] If you’d like to learn more or find out how you can support their efforts, visit GWOT memorial foundation.org. Now let’s get into today’s episode.

[00:01:34]

[00:01:47] Scott DeLuzio: Hey, Paul, welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here.

[00:01:59] Paul Darling: [00:02:00] Thank you. Glad to be here

[00:02:01] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. ~Um,~ virtually, yeah, ab absolutely. ~Um,~ you know, ~uh,~ before we get into the conversations for, for listeners who are just meeting you now on, you know, obviously virtually through, ~uh,~ through this episode here, ~uh,~ can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

[00:02:14] Maybe walk through your, your military background and, and type of stuff like that.

[00:02:18] Paul Darling: Yeah, sure. ~Uh,~ Paul Darling, a retired army officer. ~Uh,~ went to West Point, a, a mix of active duty and what’s known as Active Guard Reserve, which is full-time guard time, did some traditional m day time. I, after company command, I resigned my active duty commission, ~uh,~ because it was August, 2001, and I knew there’d never be another war.

[00:02:40] So there’s no reason to stay in. ~Uh,~ then I went to work for a little, little company in Houston called Enron. ~Uh,~ and then I found myself back serving in uniform. And, ~uh,~ it’s, it was a good ride. got a job, you know, after Enron and, and worked in engineering. Realized that I liked being a soldier. I didn’t particularly like being an, an engineer.

[00:02:59] Scott DeLuzio: [00:03:00] Sure.

[00:03:00] Paul Darling: So, ~uh,~ almost all my troop time was spent overseas. The only time I was conus. Was, ~uh,~ for schools or my last two years when I got stuck in the Pentagon, which was, which was horrible. ~Uh,~ yeah, that’s why I got out. Anyways, ~uh,~ so did a couple deployments and, ~uh,~ my book is about my last deployment in Afghanistan.

[00:03:26] ~Uh,~ it’s called Taliban Safari. ~Uh,~ it’s a fantastic read. It’s the best book about Zobel in June of 2009. Anyone will read, so I recommend it, ~uh,~ obviously to everyone. And that recommendation has gotten about a thousand books over the past seven years. ~Uh,~ coincidentally enough came out right about when you started your podcast, so I

[00:03:44] Scott DeLuzio: yeah, we were talking about that just before we started recording. And, ~uh,~ you know, interesting timing wise that, that your book came out right around that time. And, you know, had I, had I been one of those people who, who caught word of it? Yeah, you probably would’ve been one of the first guests on the show.

[00:03:58] ~Uh,~ but you know, here we are, [00:04:00] we, you know, better late than never. ~Uh,~

[00:04:01] Paul Darling: I am shocked the marketing team at the University Press of Kansas didn’t, ~uh,~ didn’t reach out to you. That’s, that’s on

[00:04:07] Scott DeLuzio: You

[00:04:07] Paul Darling: I’ll

[00:04:08] Scott DeLuzio: what it was, it, it, I just wasn’t big enough at that point. They, they probably saw me and, and they were like, you know what, let’s, let’s not worry about this guy right now. And,

[00:04:14] Paul Darling: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:15] Scott DeLuzio: you know, so here we are. We’re, we’re doing it.

[00:04:17] Paul Darling: we are. ~Um,~ and, and as you, you saw, I did a lot of writing when I

[00:04:20] Scott DeLuzio: yeah.

[00:04:21] Paul Darling: Afghanistan and, and through the, really the rest of my, ~uh,~ my, my last tour in Afghanistan, you know, I learned some things. It was a good tour, ~uh,~ tour realized we could do a lot of things better.

[00:04:33] And so. wrote a lot, ~uh,~ selfishly I wrote to develop a platform to get the book published. I, I wrote the book in 2010 and it took me nine years to get it published. ~Uh,~ and part of those professional writing was to develop the platform. So a university press or something like that would go, ~um,~ Hey, he’s done enough.

[00:04:49] Let’s, let’s publish a book. ’cause I’m not good looking. I’m not a seal. I don’t have the hair. I, I wish. Yeah. So, that was a lot of the publishing, but [00:05:00] a lot of it was, I just. Ultimately we lost a 20 year war to illiterate goat herders. May, maybe it’s time for some introspection and a, a little less legion of merit and distinguished service medals to all the generals who lost that 20 year war to illiterate goat, hers.

[00:05:15] And maybe let’s, let’s think about what we did and how we could do better, but there wasn’t a lot of demand for that. Shocking.

[00:05:21] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:05:22] Paul Darling: ~Uh,~ so retired in 2016, ~uh,~ went to work in manufacturing. ~Uh,~ back in engineering, back in the cubicle. Still wasn’t that interesting, but, ~uh,~ didn’t have much life as a soldier. but again, because I’m a junkie, I joined the Tennessee State Guard, which is kinda the state militia, a lot of re retired former soldiers in that, and that’s kind of how I keep going.

[00:05:44] And was the Deputy Chief of Staff for operations, the G three responsible for training, and originally the Tennessee State Guard of which. Alvin. Sea York was one of our more distinguished members. He was a, [00:06:00] a colonel during World War ii. Too old to for the real war. ~Uh,~ so it was designed to only be former military. ~Um,~ but, ~uh,~ we’ve kinda lost that spirit of volunteerism. I I, ironic and sad for the volunteer state. So we have a lot of non prior service who serve.

[00:06:17] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:18] Paul Darling: And they don’t know much about the military, and we don’t have much time to train. So I was giving a lot of classes on basic stuff, ~uh,~ of war, theory of war, what is an op war, how do you do MDMP, things like that. there was such a demand for it. I decided to kind of turn that into a podcast. So the original impetus was to kind of teach what I would expect. Well, you know, obviously any soldier, but like a field grade officer to be conversant with, ~uh,~ not so much on the tactics and, and those things, you know, not troop leading procedures, but MDMP, that’s more important military decision making process.

[00:06:52] You know, who’s clause which sun zu, air power, land power, C power, things like that. And it just kind of rolled on from there. I, I had [00:07:00] a year’s worth of material. I did the first year. It was okay. I had, you know, a merry band of listeners and were donating enough that it wasn’t costing me anything.

[00:07:08] I was, you know, making a hundred bucks a month.

[00:07:10] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:07:11] Paul Darling: take it. Not quite my retirement plan, but we’ll see. And, ~uh,~ did the second year, so finished the second year and I’m now, I’m going into the third year.

[00:07:19] Scott DeLuzio: Excellent, excellent.

[00:07:20] Paul Darling: and so that also helped me recover some, from some personal issues that I had to deal with, ~uh,~ some family tragedies and, ~uh,~ that was a way to take my mind off of it and find purpose. Which I think every veteran and, and certainly the, the combat veterans and combat arms veterans, you know, nothing compares to close combat. There’s nothing

[00:07:40] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:07:41] Paul Darling: in the world. Had, you know, when the best, best, most fulfilling, no, that’s, that’s not fair. I don’t know. The most primal moment of your life.

[00:07:53] The most visceral, ~uh.~ What happens when you’re so young? What do you do with the rest of your life? That’s, I think that’s frustration for a [00:08:00] lot of, a lot of my fellow infantrymen.

[00:08:02] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:08:03] Paul Darling: Trying

[00:08:03] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:08:04] Paul Darling: what finds, what gets you going after that.

[00:08:07] Scott DeLuzio: Right. Yeah. And I, I’ve, I’ve talked to a lot of people on the show and off, you know, offline, you know, in different areas. And that’s the, the thing that is holding them back is they’re trying to figure out how do I find something that feels like it means as much as whatever it was that I was doing in the military, it’s, and a lot of times, you’re right, it is a lot of the, the infantry type guys, but sometimes it’s.

[00:08:32] Anybody else too. You know it, you’re part of a, this organization and all those wheels need to be spinning in order for it to keep moving forward and accomplishing its goals. And so regardless of what your job was, you, you played a part in that. ~Um,~ and even if you didn’t deploy, even if you weren’t directly engaged in combat, you still had a part in that.

[00:08:52] You know, all those, those pieces need to fit together in order for. The ground troops to go do the things that they do. ~Um,~ you know, with, [00:09:00] without that, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of stuff behind the scenes that, you know, a lot of times the, the ground troops don’t see what happens behind the scenes.

[00:09:07] But, you know, the food has to come from somewhere. The bullet’s gotta come from somewhere. All those things have to happen. ~Um,~ and, you know, without that, you know. You’re kind of outta luck there. So, ~um,~ you know, a lot of, a lot of people supporting the, the ground troops, ~uh,~ that are out there. So, ~um,~ you know, how do you find that next thing and, you know, in your case you found this and, and, ~uh,~ you know, likewise for me, I, I found a lot of, ~uh,~ you know, purpose and meaning in doing this podcast.

[00:09:30] I wouldn’t have been doing it for seven years now if I thought it was a waste of time. ~Um,~ so I, I’ve been doing this as well and, ~um,~ you know, other people, they, they find. They find it in unexpected places. I find, you know, when they, they’re like, you know, yeah, sure, I’ll give it a shot. You know, and a friend invites ’em to go do something that is a little outside of their norm.

[00:09:49] ~Uh,~ you know, and they, they, yeah, sure. What, what the hell? I’ll go give it a shot. And then, ~uh,~ they, they’re like, oh my God, this is a thing I’ve been missing. This, this is that thing that, that I, I really need. So, ~um,~ you. [00:10:00] It, it, ~uh,~ comes from sometimes unexpected places. And, and when you push yourself outside of that comfort zone and you try something new, ~um,~ in, in this case, you know, for me, and maybe even for you, the, you know, podcasting is something new.

[00:10:12] I, I didn’t have a clue how to do it when I started and I figured it out along the way, you know, ~um,~ and. Here we are, you know, still, still doing it. So, ~um,~ but it was kind of funny as you’re starting to talk about yourself and your, your background and everything and talking about, ~uh,~ you know, getting out of the, the Army just before, ~uh,~ you know, September of.

[00:10:32] 2001, ~uh,~ you know, in August of, of 2001, and then working for Enron. I had a little flashback moment to Forrest Gump when he’s talking about all these, ~uh,~ different things that happened in history, that he just happened to be there and be, he was a part of, and all these different things that I, I was like.

[00:10:50] This could be a good story. We need to be sitting on like a bus stop bench or something with a box of chocolates. But, ~uh,~ that was just, that’s where my brain squirreled to, [00:11:00] so I felt like I had to share that a little bit. But

[00:11:03] Paul Darling: I just one thing about the military, you are a small part of history.

[00:11:08] Scott DeLuzio: yeah.

[00:11:08] Paul Darling: ~Um,~ especially, you know, I had a 27 year career, so I didn’t have a particularly good career, but I did have a, I did have a long enough career that I got to, to witness some interesting things and be part of, of history in, some impersonal ways and some in the more grand public ways.

[00:11:28] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think everybody who serves. If, if they don’t recognize that, like they haven’t figured that part out for themselves, ~uh,~ they’re, they’re missing a, a bigger part of like what it is that they, they did in the military regardless of what they, their job was and, and when they served or, or whatever.

[00:11:47] Like they’re part of history. There’s always something going on that involves the military, you know, ~um,~ you know, even in peace time there, there are things that happen and all those people need to be there. ~Um.~ Even [00:12:00] for defensive purposes, ~uh,~ deterrent purposes, you know, during, during peace time. It’s not peaceful because we don’t have a military.

[00:12:06] It’s peaceful. ’cause we have people there who are, you know, try us, you know, that kind of thing. You know, don’t, don’t come messing with us ’cause we’re here to, to stop it, you know? ~Um,~ and so regardless, they’re, they’re a piece of history as well. So, ~um.~ Now as you were talking, you, you mentioned about some changes that you wanted to see it, you know, in the, the DOD or I guess, department of War now, I guess is what it’s called.

[00:12:30] But, ~um,~ and, and things, more things that can be done, struggles that, that maybe we had, ~uh,~ fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places that we, we’ve been in for, you know, 20 plus years. ~Um,~ from your perspective, what, what changes do you think matter most of the people who are actually serving, not just the people making the policies?

[00:12:48] Paul Darling: Well, so Pete X at the, the current SEC war, ~uh.~ Sees this, but he strikes me very much as a bottom up kind of guy. A lot of his initial things like, you know, higher [00:13:00] standards, no fat bodies, shave the beard, get a haircut, you know, that stuff. Starting at the, which I get, and in some regards, our crew was similar as guard infantry officers, but he was, you know, a traditional M day.

[00:13:13] He chased the deployments. He’s a Princeton, Princeton, Harvard guy. He didn’t need that. He, he wanted, he wanted to serve, he wanted to go to war. He wanted to go as an infantryman. And he, and he did. So he saw things that level. you know, so the first time he sees the Pentagon, he walks into sec war.

[00:13:29] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:30] Paul Darling: crazy. ~Uh,~ as sec def. ~Uh,~ so because of my experience and, and doing those final two years, ~uh, oh, I’m frozen. There we go. I’m back. I was worried about that.~

[00:13:38] Scott DeLuzio: ~You. Okay.~

[00:13:38] Paul Darling: When I did those final two years in DC I got to see a little bit behind the curtain when I went to War College. ~Uh,~ I did some more research and then while I was there, I got a, a better idea of how things worked. And these things have been building, I’ve been studying it fairly closely. And so the biggest problem is that the services have no responsibility for [00:14:00] the mission. The services are given the money. But the, the gccs and the functional combatant commanders, geographic combatant commanders used to be called the sinks. ~Uh,~ you know, Paycom, africom, ucom, centcom, NORTHCOM, ~uh,~ Paycom, I think I got ’em. Anyways, they have the mission, but they have to conduct the mission with what the services give them. the man trained and equip all falls under the services. So, for example. ~Uh,~ one of the things that I came back from Afghanistan very frustrated about was the, just the complete lack of effective air support from the Air Force. ~Uh,~ we spent all this money on all these aircraft, but they were never, they were completely worthless. ~Uh,~ it, it got to the point where I would call, I would stop calling for air support when I was in a, ~uh,~ troops in contact, when we call it tick, because I knew it’d be worthless. I’d spend more time talking to him and getting nothing out of him. Rather than just stay outta my [00:15:00] air, stay off my net, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll handle this myself. It incurred more risk, but it, they were just worthless. And specifically, ~uh,~ the need for a light attack. Armed reconnaissance, what we call lar light attack strike, you know, the propeller driven six hours of endurance light, munitions, ~uh,~ you know, not super fast, you know, turbo props. And everyone saw the need for this. Sentcom commander, ~uh,~ when it was, when Madison was Sentcom commander explicitly said, we need these. And the Air Force said, no, no. They, they didn’t say no. They, the Air Force lied and say, oh, of course we’re, we’re buying these. We’re gonna buy these. I swear we’re gonna buy these. You know, in 2006 they were saying they were gonna buy them. They never bought them, they never going to buy them, they never wanted to buy ’em. So they just lied ’cause they didn’t have to. Instead they bought F 30 fives and, and kept trying to tell us that the A 10 was fantastic. A 10 sucks. I don’t know how to break this to you. The pilots are great, aircraft itself was [00:16:00] designed to kill T 60 twos in Czechoslovakia. The only reason the Air Force bought the A 10 in the seventies was to kill the Army’s age 56 Cheyenne Helicopter program. And we were built, we were buying that because the Air Force sucked in Vietnam. And ~uh,~ so the A 10 has always been a fig leaf, you know, and it’s like, oh, it’s the best cast aircraft.

[00:16:19] It’s not even I mean, the best C aircraft is the AC one 30, but that’s too expensive. You can’t have that. You’re not cool enough. We only fly at night because I only fight at night. I, anyways, I, I’m digressing a little bit, but

[00:16:35] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:16:35] Paul Darling: is, and it’s not just the Air Force as I, that was my personal bugaboo, because if I had effective air support, I would’ve been safer.

[00:16:43] I would’ve killed more of the enemy. I would’ve been more tactically effective. Would we have won in Afghanistan? No, we were still gonna lose no matter what, but. At that time, I was thinking tactically and I was like, this was the tool that we needed to be more effective in Afghanistan. saw it and the Air Force didn’t care and the politicians didn’t [00:17:00] care because it was a cheap, effective solution. So the Department of Air Force is responsible to spend money. To get as much money as possible for whatever, they don’t care whether it fights a war that’s not their problem. And the budget doesn’t go through the Secretary of Defense. It’s now a SEC war. The budget goes directly from Congress to the Air Force, to the Navy, to the army, the, the three departments. So, and, and the Army screwed up like the strikers. The Army bought the strikers. That was the hotness for a since. ~Uh,~ I did Bosnia in 96. then after Bosnia, we went on this striker. Kick the whole purpose behind it was Zeki, who at the time was the, he was either Sac or he was US Army Europe commander.

[00:17:48] I forget which. when they were trying to get forces into Bosnia, the, ~uh,~ they, they took forever to get the bridge built over the Sava River. were flying things in, but they were [00:18:00] flying in Bradley’s and M ones, and they could only use C seventeens. They couldn’t use C one thirties, so he wanted an aircraft or a vehicle that he could fly in on C one s.

[00:18:09] The C one 30 transportable was the design criteria the striker, and they did all kinds of tests and they proved that yes, if you deflated all the tires and you took all the fuel out and it had no ammo. You could get it into a C one 30 and then another C one 30 would come in that had fuel in the crew and the ammo and all the equipment required to fix it. Now, at the end of the day, we never used C one thirties to fly strikers ’cause we never would because it was ridiculous. But the whole vehicle was completely compromised because Shinseki, who then became the chief of Staff of the Army. ~Um,~ don’t forget our, our wonderful Black Berets. He was convinced that this was the future.

[00:18:48] And here here’s the great irony. The excuse for vying him was that, well, we could rapidly fly in infant armored infantry to stop Russian aggression in central Europe. [00:19:00] Yeah, did we know? No. So, so we ended up spending $30 billion on MRAPs, the mine resistant, ~uh,~ anti ambush protected vehicles, which were wheeled armored vehicles. They were just like strikers only. They weren’t worthless. They weren’t compromised by the C one 30 transportable fig leaf. So that was the Army’s thing. We’re gonna buy a vehicle that nobody wants and who cares. And then, you know, for the Navy, they went through the Littoral combat ship. They went through the zumwalts.

[00:19:34] ~Uh,~ they can’t build a Columbia class to save their life. Virginia class is doing okay. they just con canceled the Constellation class. Which was a converted fre. Everyone knew the LCS was garbage in 2010, but it doesn’t matter ’cause the Navy buys whatever they wanted to. And, and here’s the thing is, when I was in DC I was the branch chief for, for plans. So I reviewed o plans and con ops [00:20:00] only from a National Guard perspective. But I, I read them, I got to read them all. the assumptions and I, I saw, you know, what the demand signals were from the. The, ~uh,~ combatant commanders and it was always a compromise. It’s like no one wants a striker brigade when you’re planning combat operations.

[00:20:17] No one, you either want an armored brigade or you want a light unit, ~uh,~ because you still have a, a large logistics footprint with strikers. So they’re either like, give me full on tank so I can sling lead, or just put ’em in Humvees ’cause I don’t care.

[00:20:33] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:33] Paul Darling: No one wants an LCS. They wanted BMD capable Burkes and TCOs. nobody. And then the F 35 is like, the Air Force is, well, you can have any aircraft you want as long as it’s an F 35. We, we just, we don’t care about anything else. ~Um,~ so all that to say, up the answer to your question is the money needs to be given to the combatant commanders to procure what they want. Taken [00:21:00] away from the services because if we’ve proved nothing in the past 25 years since nine 11 is the services have no idea how to procure to win a war. And this current fight in Iran is proving it. The Navy, you have one job, freedom of navigation to gain C control at the critical point so that we can go where we want to go. And can’t, we failed. So if you saw the MOU that was signed, that’s, you know, already toilet paper, ~uh,~ were we forced to do that? Well, because the Navy had given the president no other option to open up the street of Horus. The Navy should have said, we’ll open up the street. That’s what we do. Navy has no, not only did the Navy completely fail to, to give the president an option other than surrendering to the IRGC, they don’t even realize they failed. They’re such a fundamentally broken organization [00:22:00] that they, they think they have no responsibility for the current situation we find ourselves in politically President Trump’s only pressure was gas prices because oil wasn’t flowing. And why wasn’t oil flowing? Because I ran, shut it down in our navy that we gave trillions of dollars to and we let ’em buy their LCS and their zone wets and their F 30 fives. And they’re, you know, well they try to buy a constellation class, but they couldn’t have saved their lives ’cause they screwed it up from the get-go. The Navy can’t build ships. They’re still building Burkes as the, as pardon the expression, the flagship, ~uh,~ the backbone of the Navy. The Burke is a 19 early 1970s design. was the low end and the teco, the OSA class, were the high end. There’s very little operational difference between the Tecos and the burs, but we’re still building 1970 ERAS technology because the Navy has completely lost any capability to bring out something revolutionary that’s actually effective. The ALT was revolutionary. We [00:23:00] built three of them in their garbage. There’s no demand signal for them. LCS was very revolutionary, a revolutionary piece of garbage that was designed explicitly to execute the, ~uh,~ A two a d, the, ~uh,~ an anti-access area denial mission. We the LCS, or we justified the LCS to force to fight in the Littorals and specifically in the Persian Gulf. So here’s your mission that we spent of billions of dollars on, and you can’t conduct it. ~Um,~ so what I would propose is to get rid of the department of the Air Force Department of the Navy Department of the Army, and that we have mission secretary secretaries. We’d have Department of Expeditionary Warfare and Department of Strategic Warfare, it Sex Strat and Sex strike, whatever you wanna call it. get the budget and then they would divvy out that money to. The services to procure what the [00:24:00] combatant commanders wanted. They wanted a capability. If they, so if the CENTCOM commander wanted a attack arm reconnaissance, the, the secretary of expeditionary warfare would say, I have, know, a hundred billion dollars for this project. wants the project? Give us your best offering and we will decide how the money is spent. To actually execute the missions. So we would have mission secretaries instead of service secretaries. And if you go back in the history, and, and I was for, I, I did a lot of historical research. I was gonna write a book on this, and I realized that’s the pitch.

[00:24:37] It’s not a book. It would be, it’s an article. luck getting it published. Maybe now is a, a more opportune time. so the, Department of Defense was created in 1947, it was a compromise and. There was the idea of having a fourth secretary for nothing but procurement [00:25:00] the services screamed. They wanted control of the money.

[00:25:02] ’cause in the end of the day, that’s what matters the most officers care about how much money they have to spend and how many staff underlings they have. If we cared about winning wars, well we would and we wouldn’t promote everyone. Like how many generals have been fired for incompetence? How many generals were fired because they failed in Iraq or Afghanistan?

[00:25:21] Casey’s it. It, they still make Casey Chief of Staff of the Army. So even though they fired him for, for his failure in Iraq, they still gave him a four star and still made him chief staff of the Army. So, you know, is that really punishing someone for failure?

[00:25:35] Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Right.

[00:25:36] Paul Darling: Yeah. So anyways, that’s, that’s my pitch.

[00:25:39] That’s, I think the money has to belong to the war fighters. The, so the secretary of Expeditionary warfare would have the geographic combatant commanders and the Secretary of strategic warfare. Would have the, ~um,~ functional war fighters, the, the functional combatant commands. ~Uh,~ you know, like Transcom, STRATCOM would probably fall, stratcom would fall under the strategic area, even though it’s kind of [00:26:00] both a war fighter as well as a functional, northcom would fall under strategic, you know, it would have to be fleshed out.

[00:26:06] War games, people who are smarter than me, and a lot of these things obviously would have to be a part of it, but that’s, that’s the gist of it. Money has to go to the mission, otherwise we’ll continue to fail at the mission.

[00:26:16] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I, I’m, as you were talking, I was trying to think and kind of compare the different wars that have taken place over our nation’s history and going back to, let’s say, world War ii. Where there was a victory, and obviously the desired outcome, maybe not the exact path that we wanted to take to get to that desired outcome, but at the end, you know, we can chalk that one up as a win.

[00:26:46] And then looking forward into, you know, Korea, Vietnam, the, you know, global war on terrorism and all the other stuff that happened after World War ii, [00:27:00] I mean. To your point, they were, you know, essentially defeats and what changed and how do we get back to that type of, ~uh,~ type of environment where we go in and we win.

[00:27:15] We don’t drag out 20 plus year wars where, you know, where we’re, we’re spending billions and trillions of dollars on a war that we’re not gonna win anyway. And, and you know, what you were saying is, you know, we weren’t gonna win. Iraq or Afghanistan regardless. So, you know, kind of seems like silly to throw that kind of money out for.

[00:27:39] Paul Darling: for cheaper. Let’s, had

[00:27:40] Scott DeLuzio: Okay, sure,

[00:27:41] Paul Darling: been followed, we still would’ve lost, but we would’ve, it would’ve been cheaper in lives and money.

[00:27:46] Scott DeLuzio: sure.

[00:27:48] Paul Darling: you know,

[00:27:49] Scott DeLuzio: Well,

[00:27:49] I, I, and I guess what,

[00:27:50] Paul Darling: cost fallacy I guess there

[00:27:52] Scott DeLuzio: yeah, I, I, I mean, I suppose there’s, there’s that silver lining where we can look at it like, okay, well it could have been cheaper, but, ~um.~ What could we have done [00:28:00] to turn the outcome around to make it a win as opposed to losses?

[00:28:06] Paul Darling: for Afghanistan.

[00:28:07] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:28:08] Paul Darling: ~Uh,~ you’d have to co-op the Taliban and we would’ve had to have gone into Pakistan. ~Uh,~ Pakistan. We were giving, we were paying Pakistan to pay the Taliban to kill Americans.

[00:28:18] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:28:18] Paul Darling: ~Uh,~ Pakistan was the center of gravity. Strategically for the Taliban. It was their safe haven. The cin ana for any counter insurgent or any insurgency is a safe haven, whether it’s internal or external.

[00:28:30] The Taliban safe haven was primarily Pakistan Iran,

[00:28:35] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:35] Paul Darling: primarily Pakistan. As long as they could run off to Pakistan and refit and re-arm and get supplied by the ISI, which we paid for. ~Uh,~ not real happy with Pakistan allies.

[00:28:49] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. I.

[00:28:50] Paul Darling: long as they had safe haven, there really wasn’t much we could do.

[00:28:54] ~Uh,~ and then the second thing is we should have had a decentralized, ~um,~ more [00:29:00] Republican. Articles of Confederation type Constitution, not a highly centralized one. the constitution that was installed after we overthrew the Taliban did not fit the personality of Afghanistan. is far more, far too much control in Kabul.

[00:29:15] Not nearly enough in the provinces,

[00:29:17] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:29:18] Paul Darling: left, left the provinces

[00:29:20] Scott DeLuzio: Okay,

[00:29:21] Paul Darling: to Taliban information operations. Not that they needed a lot. ~Uh,~ Karzai was not George Washington. He was a corrupt scumbag. ~Uh,~ you know, so we, we were, we were hurt in a lot of areas. ~Uh,~

[00:29:34] Scott DeLuzio: sure.

[00:29:35] Paul Darling: is surrounded by a number of countries, not all of which were friendly to us, specifically Iran and Pakistan. the idea of a safe haven was always gonna be there for the insurgent. And the government we installed was far too centralized and the person in charge of it was far too corrupt. thus allowing the Taliban to generate combat power through information operations through our own stupidity. ~Uh,~ I think [00:30:00] those are the big areas that caused us to lose.

[00:30:03] It certainly wasn’t tactically or operationally, we lost endurance because of the expense, even, you know, after like 2014 casualties started dropping off quite a bit. ~Uh,~ so it, it’s just was no, and we saw how quickly the Afghan government collapsed. When

[00:30:22] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:30:23] Paul Darling: out, you know, Vietnam lasted for two years, and it was a invasion of tanks from North Vietnam that, that caused the South Vietnamese government and the, ~uh,~ Arvin to, to fall.

[00:30:33] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:34] Paul Darling: And that was two years after we left the, the Afghan National Security Forces collapsed in a, in a week

[00:30:39] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:30:40] Paul Darling: utterly collapsed. So we, and it’s impossible to think that the senior leadership didn’t know that they were lying or they were criminally incompetent.

[00:30:52] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:30:53] Paul Darling: they have no business wearing stars, and I have no, I have no reason to give any sort of feel to your respect to ’em based upon their rank, [00:31:00] because they succeeded in an organization that did nothing but fail. And a lot of these guys are my classmates. So sorry, bro. But you gotta take the l.

[00:31:11] Scott DeLuzio: Right. And, and learn something from it too, so that we don’t repeat this mistake in the next war, which, you know.

[00:31:19] Paul Darling: no one talking about it except for Hegseth, and he’s getting tons of crap. Hegseth saw it. He, he, I, I don’t agree with everything he’s doing, but I do agree with his perspective that this is a failed organization that needs to be revamped. the attitude from Department of Defense, from the, the senior leadership, both in uniform and, and from the sess is, oh, we’re perfect.

[00:31:39] Scott DeLuzio: Right. Well, yeah, and nobody wants to admit that they’re wrong or that they didn’t succeed in whatever they were assigned to do, and especially not something as big as a, a war, you know, a, a war that dragged out for 20 some odd years and like, no, [00:32:00] nobody wants to admit failure on any of those types of things, even though

[00:32:03] Paul Darling: a professional does. If a doctor kills a patient on the table, he goes

[00:32:07] Scott DeLuzio: Oh, sure,

[00:32:07] Paul Darling: I do wrong?

[00:32:08] Scott DeLuzio: sure.

[00:32:09] Paul Darling: the hallmark of professionalism is to reevaluate your conduct

[00:32:13] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:32:14] Paul Darling: honest manner and to make improvements. So say in Vietnam we were probably more competent tactically and operationally than we were in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[00:32:25] And yet after Vietnam, we revamped everything in the Army. We went to Airland Battle. We, you know, published 100 dash five to Shaggy, stood up the school, advanced military studies. know, there was a lot of introspection after Vietnam to go, what did we do wrong and how can we do better? Even though we did better from a ground war fighting perspective than we did in Afghanistan, Iraq, there’s been none of that, ~uh,~ introspection revamping of doctrine and, you know, tearing down and rebuilding from the very beginnings like, like a Crate Abrams did, [00:33:00] or, you know, Patton’s kid or, you know, I into eg. ~Um.~ There was a lot of very competent officers who, even though the Army did well, we didn’t do good enough

[00:33:09] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:10] Paul Darling: they, they demanded that they do better. There is none of that going on. It’s just a circle jerk of we’re great, give us more money, let us buy whatever we want to. ~Um,~ so we’ve lost the professionalism that would allow the, the current arrangement of the service secretaries getting all the money.

[00:33:26] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:33:27] Paul Darling: So we don’t, we not only don’t give money to the mission, but the services feel no accountability whatsoever for their failures anyways.

[00:33:36] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. And I, to your, to your point, and I, I agree with what you’re saying too, even though we, we. Kinda went in two different directions there. But I, I do agree with what, no, I a hundred percent agree with what you’re saying because a, a professional would do what you said and, and wanna figure out why did this go wrong and what can we do to make this better for the next time so we don’t make those same mistakes.

[00:33:58] ~Um,~ but, you know, think about it, you know, take [00:34:00] it out of a military context. Let’s put it into a, a business context and, hey, we, we had a, a product launch and it didn’t go as well as we thought. Why did it not go as well? And you know, that person probably has a compensation package that’s tied around the success or failure of, ~uh,~ you know, whatever this project is.

[00:34:19] And there’s, there’s incentives for that person to, to succeed in whatever that is because of their own personal interest in this. Whereas a lot of times in government. You’re getting a paycheck regardless, and you’re gonna, you’re gonna be moving up in the ranks regardless, because it, it doesn’t matter.

[00:34:43] So you, so I think to my point was, ~uh,~ they don’t wanna make it sound like it’s a failure because then they may not move up in the, the ranks because they, you know, for those types of reasons. So, ~uh,~ you know that professionalism isn’t [00:35:00] a given in this kind of context. I, I think.

[00:35:03] Paul Darling: Well, it clearly isn’t, and they’re supposed to be accountable to Congress.

[00:35:07] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:07] Paul Darling: We don’t have veterans in Congress that much anymore. then those that have served, ~um,~ are, you know, we just, we’re not the same militaries as we were, were in World War ii, but at one point, over 80% of Congress were combat veterans.

[00:35:19] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:35:20] Paul Darling: I think it’s less than 10 or 15%. And a lot of these guys just, they were checking the block for political purposes, not serving from any sort sense of duty on our country. ~Uh,~ so the accountability from Congress isn’t there. The, the second reason I did my podcast is to create a more informed citizenry. Who can at least analyze a conflict And at look at the levels of war, look at the principles of war. Understand k Clausewitz, you know, what are the centers of gravity? What are, what are we targeting? What is sea control versus sea power? The difference between Mahan and Corbet and what, you know, who was du hay? What is air power? [00:36:00] And I’ll say 90% of Air Force officers have no idea what air power was, is. The du Hey Billy Mitchell Sense, or even half Arnold for that, for that matter. ~Um,~ air power is what the Air Force does. So what the Air Force does is air power. They’re, they’re in this tautological loop. They will tell you with a straight face, PJ’s are air power. No PJ’s have nothing to do with air power whatsoever. But it’s the Air Force does air power. So air power is what the Air Force does. So the, so as long as the nation has the Air Force, they have air power. If the Air Force could have nothing but rubber dinghies, but as long as it exists, they’ll claim that they have air power and, and that’s just the complete lack of intellectual honesty and thought, which is why we keep losing wars.

[00:36:41] But we keep spending more and more money. I’m a little jaded.

[00:36:45] Scott DeLuzio: No, no, I didn’t, I didn’t notice that at all. I didn’t pick up on any of that.

[00:36:50] Paul Darling: yeah.

[00:36:51] Scott DeLuzio: ~Um,~ no, but you know, to, to your point that, that professionalism that, ~uh,~ you know, that accountability is missing, you know, we, [00:37:00] we left Afghanistan, we left. However many millions or billions of dollars of equipment behind to the enemy that we were just fighting, and now they had all of that equipment that.

[00:37:17] Really makes no sense. Why, why we, we leave that stuff behind, ~um,~ you know, for them to just pick up and now they, they’re on level playing field as far as equipment goes. ~Um,~ unless you think about it from another perspective, again, another financial perspective, ~um,~ and maybe a jaded point of view, but, ~um,~ you know, now we have to go invest in more new fancy, shiny equipment.

[00:37:38] To, ~uh,~ to be able to beat these guys because they have all of our old equipment. So, ~um,~ you know, so how, how is that helping us from a, ~uh,~ from a country’s perspective, you know, ~uh,~ outside of helping tho those individual companies who are now going to benefit from it,

[00:37:54] you know?

[00:37:55] Paul Darling: so here’s an example. The, the division commander of the 82nd, who was the, the commander of the [00:38:00] last unit to leave,

[00:38:01] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:01] Paul Darling: in theory was responsible for that was General Donahue. He was a two star general. ~Uh,~ he just resigned as a four star general. Apparently, I, I’ve heard this, that he made the, the soldiers and the Marines were there, do a police call to clean up all the trash. So that the airport looked nice when the Taliban took over ’cause he wanted to have a ceremony with the Taliban, a transfer of authority, and then he made sure someone took a picture of him being the last person on the plane carrying a rifle that he borrowed. And so here’s a man who just was the senior military officer responsible for the, the greatest humiliation of American forces in history, far more so than Vietnam. And they still made him a four star. As long as people like you, you’re gonna get promoted. They, the mission doesn’t matter. The popularity contest is all that matters. And look, I mean the, the guy’s obviously very fit. I, I have to assume to a certain degree intelligent officer, but I’ll give [00:39:00] credit to the Navy. You crash a ship, you’re done.

[00:39:02] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:03] Paul Darling: But in the Army, you can crash everything and they’ll promote you.

[00:39:07] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:39:07] Paul Darling: I, we just, we gotta have some responsibility with our senior leaders, and there is none, at least in the Army.

[00:39:13] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And you know, part of the reason why I wanted to have this type of conversation about this kind of accountability and, and looking back and learning some lessons from all of this is, ~uh,~ that you know myself and I’m, I’m sure you and a lot of other folks who served in, ~uh,~ in these wars, they’re sitting there scratching their head saying like.

[00:39:33] What was it even worth? You know, what, what did we go over there and, and sacrifice our, our health, our lives, our, you know, relationships, our careers, our, all these things. Why did we go and sacrifice all of these things just to walk away and hand the enemy, the keys to the kingdom? And like that just, just didn’t sit well with me.

[00:39:57] And I know a lot of other folks as well, and. [00:40:00] You know, kind of felt like a betrayal to a lot of us. And you know, if we’re sitting here and we’re, we’re trying to convince ourselves that, oh, next time it’ll be better. It just sounds like a. You know, bad relationship, you know, where you, you got, you got a, ~uh,~ you know, domestic violence or something like that.

[00:40:20] Where, where it’s like, oh, well, you know what? They, they didn’t really mean it this time and, and, ~uh,~ you know, it’ll be better next time. Well, no, it won’t be because we’re not, if we’re not learning any lessons from this, it’s not gonna be any better, ~uh,~ you know, as we go forward. And so, ~um,~ you know, I know a lot of veterans, ~um.~

[00:40:34] You know, who got out after, after their service and, and saw all that, that stuff happen. ~Uh,~ they, they felt like, you know, it’s that whole mission that they had was, was for nothing. And the buddies that they lost.

[00:40:51] Paul Darling: Which is absolutely true, and it

[00:40:53] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:40:54] Paul Darling: having an honest assessment. You lose a war, all the, everything that you did was a sacrifice that was not worth [00:41:00] it.

[00:41:00] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:41:00] Paul Darling: So even with Vietnam, I can polish that turd a little bit because Vietnam the communists for so long. So I can say, and, and the, the government of Thailand has said as much Thailand would’ve been a communist government. We had not fought in Vietnam. If we had just left and they had rolled over in 1966 instead of 1975, would’ve lost Thailand. So Vietnam veterans can at least say the Thai people are not suffering like the Cambodians and Lo Asian and the the Vietnamese. Because of our efforts we did that, there was, there was one win.

[00:41:39] We could look at Vietnam as a greater battle in the Cold War and say. By fighting against communism in Vietnam and then later in Central America. Yeah, we, we won some, we lost one some, but at the end of the day, in 1989, and, and by 1991, the Soviet Union completely dissolved. did defeat communism in the end.

[00:41:59] We fought them [00:42:00] hard. We, like I said, we won some battles. We lost some battles, but in the end, the Soviet Union fell and the America emerged as a sole superpower. You can take that, that away from Vietnam. There’s nothing for GWOT. Absolutely nothing. The world is a less stable, more dangerous place after 20 years of sacrifice. And as we’re learning in Iran, we, we can’t do anything. I Iran’s just ridiculous.

[00:42:30] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and, and so we look at these things and. It, it defeats us on a individual level. You know, we were like, you know, that felt like I was doing something that mattered. It was important at the time, and it, it felt like I was part of something big and, and everything. And you know, turns out it might have just been better off had we done nothing and been, you know, not serving the way that we all did and, you know, going overseas and, ~uh,~ you know, doing all that kind [00:43:00] of stuff.

[00:43:00] And, ~uh,~ you know, so we. We leave the military, we, we miss the mission that we had. But ~um,~ now, now we’re trying to find a new mission. ~Um,~ but God forbid we make the same mistake and have another mission that doesn’t make, that doesn’t make any sense. So, you know, I, I, I felt, feel like, you know, we should, ~um,~ kinda look in a direction of something like, like you were saying, you know, finding some, something that has some sense of purpose, ~um,~ you know, for.

[00:43:26] Anyone who’s looking to find that, that new mission in life after leaving the military to find that sense of purpose, ~um,~ you know, especially if you’re feeling disconnected, you know, with all the stuff that’s been going on and, and everything, ~um,~ you know, like find something that gives you a, a sense of purpose, sense of meaning.

[00:43:45] ~Um,~ and if you don’t have that, like we were saying earlier on, ~um.~ Try something new. Try something outside of your comfort zone that you normally wouldn’t have tried, but just try it anyways. ’cause that might be the thing that starts to give you that purpose [00:44:00] again. ~Um,~ but, but think about like long term, like what is this actually going to accomplish?

[00:44:04] This shouldn’t just be for me to give me the warm and fuzzies. It should be trying to help, you know, some, you know, in, in your community, your, your state, your, your. You know, whatever that you’re trying to do to, to, to improve, I should say. ~Um,~ you, you should be looking at something bigger than just yourself.

[00:44:24] As, as that set central focus. Obviously you want that to be fulfilling for you, but, ~um,~ you, you wanna be able to help other people. And, and I, I think that that’s where a lot of people find that they are. Finding that sense of purpose. ~Um,~ and the reason why a lot of people don’t have that sense of purpose is because they’re, they’re isolating themselves from the rest of the world basically, and they, they don’t want to deal with the rest of the world.

[00:44:48] And then they wonder why they don’t feel like they have any kind of purpose and that,

[00:44:54] Paul Darling: is

[00:44:54] Scott DeLuzio: yeah.

[00:44:55] Paul Darling: not helping that.

[00:44:56] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:44:57] Paul Darling: as, as wonderful as it is chatting with you, [00:45:00] it’s not the same as, you know, a face-to-face interaction. It’s a

[00:45:03] Scott DeLuzio: I agree.

[00:45:03] Paul Darling: ’cause we can talk from across the country and have a great conversation.

[00:45:06] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:45:06] Paul Darling: that’s, I mean, that’s a, I, that’s a large reason why when the Tennessee State Guard. Just continue serve, volunteering. You know, it’s nothing to do with the National Guard. You don’t get paid. ~Um,~ you know, but once a month, I, I meet with my unit, ~uh,~ and we got battalions, very, very small battalions, ~uh,~ like 12 dudes if we’re lucky battalions, you know, throughout the state. But I, so I’m, I’m a nerd, I, I did a lot of studying, understanding, ~uh,~ when I was. ~Uh,~ in DC with the National Guard Bureau and, and policy plans and, ~um,~ strategy policy and plans branch chief, that I really looked into the Second Amendment to understand the National Guard’s role in the defense. And, and then going into the various militia acts, the Dick Act, ~uh,~ all the reformations that went through. [00:46:00] With DOD understanding 19 47, 19 86, Coldwater Nichols Act, national Defense acts, things like that. And I, one of the things about the the Second Amendment is, ~um,~ know, a well-regulated militia being necessarily the security of free state at the right of the people that keep bear arms should not be infringed. conservatives don’t really like the first part. Liberals don’t really like the second part, and both parts are equally as important. And the critical point for a well-regulated militia is it can’t be under federal control, which is why I don’t consider the National Guard part of the militia. It is in fact but a reserve to the federal Title 10 forces. The only true militias are the, the state guards, the state militias. that’s, that’s what a militia is, and it’s, it’s a multiple purpose. One, it is a check on federal power. But I think more importantly, it’s an opportunity for people within the community to get together every month for a very directive sacrifice purpose, [00:47:00] almost like jury duty. Like, okay, this is just something you have to do as a citizen. when you find that sense of duty to your community and to your, to your country, ~uh,~ in a, in a, in something that is very much bound in a traditional sense, it, it strengthens. I, I wish. Every county should have a, a, you know, the men, 21 to 45.

[00:47:24] All right, listen, once a quarter, once a month, we’re gonna get together for a day. We’re gonna inspect what everyone’s got, find out who needs things. Maybe we’ll go shoot, meet different people, and we’ll have a barbecue at the end of the day, forcing you to get out and, and look at it like jury duty and to regain that sense of civic duty, but do it as a, within the community. And the veterans who served on active duty, look, no one gives a crap what I did in the military, but when you’re in the state guard, you know, yeah. You wear [00:48:00] your badges, you, you have your combat patch, and because you have that experience, you, you still get, you get a little bit of respect for what you did. I think a a lot of people, know, you’re, you’re a bat boy. You’re tabbed and scrolled and maybe you got a stain. You earned that. That’s hard. That means something. You walk around in uniform, on a military base, you are Billy Badass. But out in the civilian world, no one cares.

[00:48:22] Scott DeLuzio: Right.

[00:48:22] Paul Darling: PE you work hard to, to earn those laurels. And we have population that is so removed from military service that all we know is Navy seals.

[00:48:33] Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:48:35] Paul Darling: were you a Navy seal? ~Uh,~ you know, no, I was, you know, I was in SFOD Delta. well you weren’t a seal.

[00:48:43] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, it’s, it’s seal and everything else basically.

[00:48:47] Paul Darling: there, there’s seals and there’s everyone else. And look, they look, they’ve got the best hair.

[00:48:51] I’m, I’m not, I’m not taking anything away from them. ~Uh,~ but there, there’s more to the service. And it is just funny that among veterans, it’s like, yeah, [00:49:00] okay.

[00:49:00] Scott DeLuzio: You are right.

[00:49:01] Paul Darling: we don’t have an informed population. We don’t have a population that has a lot of military service personally or within their family. And we’re developing this warrior cast. Which isn’t healthy for the Republic. And ultimately, to the earlier point, how do we do better? Well, if we don’t have a population that knows the military and we’re not electing people who knows the military, and we have senior leadership that have failed at everything and don’t seem to care in the military itself, we can’t succeed. There’s no accountability, there’s no truth telling because the senior leaders that we are trusting to fight and win our nation’s wars are failing, but they’re not being held accountable. So we’re stuck. So. There’s, ~uh,~ there’s my recommendation. Go join your, your local state militia.

[00:49:44] Scott DeLuzio: ~Uh,~ you know, that’s actually something I don’t think we’ve discussed on this show before. I, we might have brought up that, that somebody was in a state militia, but not as a, ~uh,~ way to continue serving and finding a, you know, a sense of purpose and meaning and, and all that kinda stuff. ~Um,~ a it. [00:50:00] And, and hell man, it could be fun.

[00:50:03] You know, you, like you said, you can, you know, there, there’s, there’s nothing wrong about having a good time doing, doing these kind of things and going out and, and volunteering for this type of thing. So, ~um.~ You know, should it be a, a mandatory thing? No, I don’t. Probably not, but you know, should it be a, you know, voluntary, you know, get, get out there and, and do it.

[00:50:20] Yeah, sure. Absolutely. And, and, and, ~uh,~ you get enough people who volunteer who wanna be there. ~Um,~ you know, you could have a pretty formidable, ~uh,~ force if you actually, you know, get some training in there. So, ~um,~ so yeah, this is another, you know, great way to, ~uh.~ Give back to your community and, you know, find a, a sense of purpose in, in life after, after taking off the uniform, putting on, you know, just a slightly different uniform, I suppose.

[00:50:41] Right.

[00:50:42] Paul Darling: Yeah, we still wear the acus. That’s the one thing

[00:50:44] Scott DeLuzio: Oh.

[00:50:45] Paul Darling: I’m like,

[00:50:45] Scott DeLuzio: Nevermind. Scratch that. Scratch that whole idea. That’s a stupid idea. No, nobody did it. No, I’m just kidding.

[00:50:50] Paul Darling: I miss the woodlands. I’ll tell you what.

[00:50:54] Scott DeLuzio: Well, ~uh,~ Paul, before we wrap up this episode, ~um,~ for the listener who might [00:51:00] be frustrated with the system, worried about the direction of the country or. You know, just not happy with how things have, have gone. What’s, what’s one thing that they can do this week outside of, ~uh,~ you know, maybe joining the, their state guard to, ~uh,~ you know, move that frustration into some sort of action.

[00:51:14] Paul Darling: Well, first off, you listen to my podcast and buy my book is the most important thing that you could possibly do to serve your nation. And I say that somewhat tongue in cheek

[00:51:24] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:51:25] Paul Darling: if you aren’t military and, and there’s no reason, it’s not a bad thing, it’s a volunteer force. And if you didn’t come from a family that encourages you, you know, just a lot of people miss it.

[00:51:34] Become more informed on. Military matters, and, and that’s kind of what my podcast is dying for. Be informed and then reach out, talk to

[00:51:42] Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

[00:51:42] Paul Darling: Say, what is our, what is our grand strategy in the Middle East? What are we trying to accomplish? What are, what is the, you know, what is our strategic center of gravity that we’re targeting in Iran?

[00:51:54] I wanna understand how you see this conflict that you’re spending my tax paying dollars over. [00:52:00] Have the ability to communicate in the language of national security, of military affairs. ~Um,~ I just be more informed and, and hold our, our elected officials accountable, I guess.

[00:52:13] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. ~Um,~ I, ~uh,~ accountability just in general, I think is, is, ~uh,~ missing, ~uh,~ from a, from a lot of. The ranks of the government. And that’s something that we need to change, I think. And, and that’s, that’s a good point. ~Um,~ for the listeners who wanna get in touch with you, find out more about your, your work and, ~uh,~ you know, get a copy of your book, all that, where, where can they go, ~uh,~ online to, to find some, ~uh,~ some more resources?

[00:52:36] Paul Darling: the book Taliban Safari, you can get it anywhere. Amazon, ~uh,~ if you wait in the spring and the fall, the University Press of Kansas has a big sale. ~Um,~ tragically my book is often on sale, but it makes you feel any better. I don’t make any money off of it. Like seriously, I make like 70 cents a copy.

[00:52:51] So, ~um,~ there, there’s that. Also, I, I’d be remiss, ~uh,~ part of this outreach is, ~uh,~ I’m part of a group called Real Plastic Heroes. guy in [00:53:00] Texas started it up, there’s eight of us, and he made toy soldiers, but we’re in GWOT garb.

[00:53:06] Scott DeLuzio: Ah.

[00:53:07] Paul Darling: he, he, he had us come down. He had replicas of everything that we wore, ~uh,~ when we were deployed.

[00:53:12] Took a bunch of pictures. ~Uh,~ an American artist developed the models, ~uh,~ and American factory is doing the injection molding. He had to recreate that whole process because it had been lost to the United States.

[00:53:21] Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

[00:53:22] Paul Darling: So, ~uh,~ and. I get something. I’ve never seen it, but I’ll get something if these things ever sell. And, ~uh,~ they’re also putting some of the profits towards various causes. ~Uh,~ my personal recommendation is, is suicide prevention

[00:53:35] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:53:36] Paul Darling: ~Uh,~ that’s, that’s a big deal for a lot of us. ~Uh,~ so check out Real Plastic Heroes. ~Uh,~ you can contact me through the War 1 0 2. Sprout website and just send me a letter or, ~um,~ or contact me that way.

[00:53:47] That’s usually the easiest way to reach me. ~um,~ yeah, that’s,

[00:53:51] Scott DeLuzio: Sounds.

[00:53:52] Paul Darling: it’s not about me. It’s about what I’m trying to sell.

[00:53:55] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I get it. And, ~uh,~ you know, I, I appreciate you coming on and sharing, sharing this, and I’ll [00:54:00] have links to all that in the, ~uh,~ show notes as well for the listeners so that they can find all that easily, ~um,~ you know, link to your book, link to your, your website there. And, ~uh,~ link to, ~um, uh,~ everything else that we talked about today and, you know, any other resources that we, we might have, I’ll, I’ll.

[00:54:14] Get some links out there for, for folks. So, ~uh,~ Paul, thank you for coming on the, on the show, sharing your, your insights into, you know, kinda what’s been going on over the last 20 plus years and,

[00:54:24] Paul Darling: Oh my gosh.

[00:54:24] Scott DeLuzio: know, ~uh,~ the experiences and all, all the things that you’ve, you’ve, ~uh,~ you’ve learned along the way. I appreciate it.

[00:54:29] Paul Darling: I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for what you do.

[00:54:32] Scott DeLuzio: You bet. Thanks.

Twenty years of war left many veterans with a range of reactions, including frustration, uncertainty, and unresolved questions. Retired Army officer Paul Darling offers his perspective based on a 27-year career, a 2009 deployment to Afghanistan, work at the Pentagon, and his book Taliban Safari. He discusses how decisions are made about equipment, how budgets are managed, and why accountability at senior levels is often debated.

The conversation covers topics such as the Stryker, F-35, A-10, and close air support, as well as Pakistan’s role in Afghanistan, the collapse of Afghan forces, and the broader impact on those who served. Paul also talks about his involvement with War 102, the Tennessee State Guard, and Real Plastic Heroes as ways to stay engaged after retirement.

Listeners will hear one perspective on how institutional incentives may influence outcomes, why reflection after conflict can be complex, and how veterans can explore different paths through service, education, and community.

Timestamps: