East Meets West Hunt

Beau Martonik sits down with Dan Infalt of The Hunting Beast at Huntstock, with Johnny Stewart as co-host. Dan has been asked about bedding areas on every podcast there is, so this one skips the tactics and goes after the story behind them.

Dan learned to hunt alone in southern Wisconsin, chasing one buck for three seasons, finding his sheds every year, and figuring out that if he wanted to kill him, he had to be close to where he bedded. On Thanksgiving morning, a rock off the hood of an old junked car finally pushed that buck out. He went on to a 15 year run of giant bucks, and Dan is honest about what that run cost his family, and why he started giving everything away.

In this episode:

Why hate online means you’re doing well

Learning to hunt with no mentor and a dad who couldn’t give a compliment

Finding a buck’s sheds three years running and learning his bedding areas

Crosswinds, a junked car, and his first giant on Thanksgiving Day

Giving away the “secrets” and the kickback that came with it

Making people better hunters and hunters better people

Johnny, Beau, and a wind bump at deer camp that turned into Beau’s biggest buck

Helping his longtime hunting partner kill a 170 inch ten he’d been chasing for years

Timber the raccoon, and why hunters care about animals more than people think

Losing some of the want, and the birthdays and Halloweens it cost

Why you have to earn luck

How putting his spots on film has cost him

Why 5% of hunters kill all the deer, and the confidence nobody can sell you

https://act.wilderness.org/a/26bcpledge-eastwest-1⁠⁠⁠⁠

Dan's YT - https://www.youtube.com/@thehuntingbeast

Dan's FB - https://www.facebook.com/dan.infalt

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Bonus episode from Wyoming elk camp. Beau Martonik sits down with his cousin Tyler Martonik and cameraman Derek Testerman at the end of a 10 day archery elk hunt on general tags.

The plan for day one was to take it easy and acclimate. By 4:30 that afternoon, a cow walked to within five yards of Tyler, he looked over and said “bull, Beau, bull,” and Beau had a 6x6 coming around the knob. What followed was a five hour trip out in the dark through blowdowns and a thunderstorm, and another full day to get the rest of him out.

From there it’s Tyler’s hunt. Learning one drainage over most of a week, waiting for thermals to settle before moving on bedded bulls, a wallow found on LiDAR, close calls at 80 yards, and wolves in camp at 3 AM.

In this episode:

Burning seven points on a Wyoming general tag

Acclimating without sitting in camp: camp low, hunt high

The cow at five yards and the bull behind her

Butchering a bull on a slope he kept trying to roll off

Five hours of rain, cliffs, and blowdowns on the first trip out

Why bugles are closer than they sound in thick timber

Waiting for thermals to settle before moving on bedded bulls

A wallow that only showed up on LiDAR

Elk staying low for water in a hot, dry year

Wolves in camp at 3 AM

The herd bull play where everything went right but the bull

Gear that worked, what’s getting replaced, and boiling a skull for Wyoming’s CWD rules

⁠https://act.wilderness.org/a/26bcpledge-eastwest-1⁠⁠⁠

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Beau Martonik sits down with Jim Gallagher at Huntstock. Jim is in his 50th year of hunting, has been bow-only for close to 40 years, and has killed 233 deer with a bow, almost all of them in the swamps and thickets of the Northeast.

His system runs the opposite direction from most. Instead of trying to leave nothing on the walk-in, he wants deer to find his trail. Store scents and cover scents didn’t hold up, so for about 35 years his boots have gone in fresh rabbit droppings, later with tarsal gland hair on top, a buck tarsal hangs seven feet up over a mock scrape, and he walks past his tree and hooks back so a deer following him in gives him an angled-away shot. Then he calls, every sit, on a set schedule.

He also gets into why he aims at the very bottom of the deer, going back to around 1986, when he and Gus Park tallied their misses at a picnic table in Pennsylvania, and 30 of 35 had gone over the deer’s back, and a long list of stories from 50 seasons of doing it his way.

In this episode:

Tracking deer in Maine snow and going bow only

39 foot stands and seven busts in 17 years

The calling sequence: one nostril, fawn mew, grunt, rattle

Why store scents failed and rabbit droppings didn’t

Tarsal glands seven feet up over a mock scrape

Shooting out the side of the peep in low light

Why a deer blowing at you can be a good thing

The night bucks fought under his stand in the dark

Straight down shots and where he aims from 39 feet

The J hook that turns a following deer into a quartering away shot

His biggest buck, a 212 pounder that followed him for a week

The Pennsylvania picnic table tally and the barn test on deer ducking the string

Checking the swamps after the first October snow

A broken arrow rest, two lost bucks, and why you shoot your bow after a bad hit

⁠https://act.wilderness.org/a/26bcpledge-eastwest-1⁠⁠

Jim's YT channel - https://www.youtube.com/@jimgallagher4939

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Beau Martonik sits down with Dr. Steve Ditchkoff at Auburn University, where he has run the deer lab for about 25 years and has been studying deer for roughly 35.

He did not grow up hunting deer. His father quit about the time he was born, so he grew up fishing outside Detroit, found a fisheries and wildlife degree at Michigan State, studied wintering deer in Maine on snowshoes, and did his PhD in Oklahoma on mating strategy, which was a question deer biologists mostly weren’t asking then.

That question is what this episode is built on. In 2007, he built a 430-acre facility at Auburn, fenced, with about 100 adult deer in it, because hunting shows had spent years telling people which bucks were breeder bucks and nobody had studied which individuals actually breed. His group tries to capture the whole population each year, pulls a tissue sample off every deer, and builds the family tree out of DNA. They can look at one buck and count what he sired at one, two, three and four years old, and see which does he bred with.

The answer is that it isn’t random. It’s partially driven by similarity in body size and age. He also has data showing a doe increases her movement substantially right before she comes into heat. What he flags as belief rather than data, and he flags it himself, is his hunch that a dominant buck is targeting specific does rather than wandering. Then the hunting consequence: if you knew the exact peak of breeding, that’s the worst week to sit, because that’s when the most bucks are locked down.

The other half is pressure. He doesn’t believe gunshots are what deer respond to. He believes they respond to the sign we leave walking in and walking out. Two of his studies sit under that, one in South Carolina where daylight use of a hunted spot dropped the day after a sit and took about a week to recover, and one in Alabama that found the best day of the week to hunt.

In this episode:

Why the Southeast ended up leading deer research

Where AI helps wildlife science and where it goes wrong

How he ended up handing his data to Bill Thompson

What confidence actually does to a hunter in the stand

We train deer to avoid us, and the sign we leave doing it

The South Carolina study, and the week it takes a spot to recover

The best day of the week to hunt, by the data

72 square miles of ammunition plant, and what those deer acted like

Why bucks move more where the deer are thin

Why the peak week is the worst week to sit

The breeder buck question nobody had ever actually studied

Inside the 430 acre facility and the family tree built out of DNA

Whether a dominant buck is choosing which does he breeds

The walkabout a doe goes on before she comes into heat

Bucks that moved two and five miles and never came back

Whether you need to know how many deer you have

The three things 35 years changed about how he hunts

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Beau Martonik sits down with Lucas Benoit, a bear houndsman and guide out of central New Hampshire, with Johnny Stewart in the co-host chair. Recorded live at Huntstock.

Lucas got into hounds around fourteen with two accident-litter beagles, bought his first two finished bear dogs off a guy who was quitting, treed about sixteen bears that first season, and has since had a year of just over a hundred. Ask him which he’d rather do and he says deer hunting, a hundred percent.

He has killed mature bucks on September 21st in back to back years. Johnny spends most of the episode refusing to let him call it luck.

The argument underneath it is worth the listen. The first week of the season is the best week of the year to kill a mature buck, because if you can find what they’re feeding on, they aren’t far from it. December gets almost that good, and he’ll tell you he still struggles then. The reason most people never cash that first week is that they go scout it the week before and blow the place out. Lucas does not pre-scout. He finds sign in real time and sets up on it the same day.

Then it gets specific. Ten white oaks on a hilltop spine, three or four of them producing, one or two acorns under each, and bucks routing through to check every one. How to look up into an oak and read whether it has produced in the last couple years. The stand he hung over a pattern he called a slam dunk, then left and came back the wrong morning. Blowing a buck off a hill on opening day, staying out five or six days, then parking a mile away and climbing a steep hemlock face because it was the only way the wind worked. And a 170 inch buck that stood up at fifty yards, crossed a clear cut, looked at six dogs and three men for five minutes, and bedded back down.

In this episode:

Beagles to bear dogs, and why hounds are the honest way to manage a bear population

Why running dogs is the best deer scouting he does all year

The rub line he found on a bear chase, and the buck that walked it in daylight

A 170 inch buck that bedded back down in front of six dogs

Why the first week of season is his best week of the year

Why he doesn’t scout the week before opening day

The slam dunk stand he hung and then didn’t sit

Same spot, same date, years apart

Reading which oaks are producing before you ever look at the ground

A September buck killed in the morning, on a spot he’d already blown out

How long to stay out of a spot once you’ve bumped a buck

Five bucks on the last day of the season, and whether that’s luck

Lucas' IG: @nhbearguide

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Beau Martonik sits back down with Lee Ellis of Seek One for the second half of their conversation, which is one long story. Lee saw a buck with heavy brow tines one time in the summer, across a rolling bean field, and then didn’t lay eyes on him again until the first week of November. He spent most of the season putting time into a different deer entirely.

Then the season ended in a blizzard. Lee walks through almost hitting that buck with his truck five days before he killed him, watching him feed in a cut cornfield for an hour and a half in cold that left his fingertips sensitive for weeks afterward, and asking a neighbor for access permission rather than hunting permission so he could keep a tree line between himself and an island of timber full of eyes. He gets into the tree he wanted, the tree he settled for, and why the second one is the only reason the hunt happened.

Also covered: the does blowing and then coming back, a lung liver hit that looked perfect on camera, backing out for a sleepless night, dragging the deer out a mile on a sled at negative 18 with a frozen beard, and the deer’s other close calls.

Part one of this conversation is episode 505.

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Beau Martonik sits down with Jameson Curtis and Kelly McGraw of Wild at Heart Outdoors, the two guys behind Pursuing the Allegheny. It’s their first time on the show in eight years.

They walked away from making hunting films, and Jameson walked away from hunting almost entirely for a couple of years. He says getting off social media was the reset button, that seeing 15 guys out of thousands post big bucks had him convinced everybody was killing except him. Kelly puts it more simply: when you drop the ego, you think more freely.

What came out the other side is two guys who hunt less and capitalize more. Kelly has been on four mule deer hunts without the big one he’s after, and instead of counting them as four failures he counts them as 28 total days of learning. Jameson laid in the weeds for six hours waiting on bedded bucks rather than push a stalk he knew wouldn’t work. They both stopped hunting individual buck beds off theory and moved to hunting whatever sign is hot that week.

The tactical run in the middle is worth the listen on its own. The one hidden corner of a cut cornfield that the biggest bucks hit in daylight within a couple days of the combine leaving, every year, regardless of the calendar. Why bucks buffer off a field edge and sprint 60 yards before they feed, and the young oak Kelly had planted at 23 yards to fix it. What a 2 a.m. scrape picture usually means about the next afternoon. Why Kelly would rather bump a buck out of his bed than stay a step behind him. And the only weather trigger either of them will get out of bed for.

In this episode:

Why they stepped away from hunting, and what getting off social media did for it

Pursuing the Allegheny, eleven years later

What changed out West in twelve years, and the advice from Jared Lyle that stuck

Kelly’s mule deer math: 28 days, not four failures

The lunch break set that killed a buck that same evening

What a 2 a.m. scrape picture usually means about tomorrow afternoon

The corner of the cut corn the biggest bucks hit in daylight every year

Target panic, and a raghorn at 20 yards in Wyoming

Where buck bedding stopped working for them, and hunting hot sign instead

Bumping deer out of bed and hunting them anyway

The only weather trigger either of them will get out of bed for

The transplanted scrape tree, and why bucks buffer off a field edge

Managing a farm after years on public

Hunting for yourself instead of for the internet

The Wilderness Society - https://act.wilderness.org/a/26bcpledge-eastwest-1

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Beau Martonik sits back down with Dr. Karl Miller for the second half of their conversation, and this half is entirely about what a deer sees. Karl was part of the original work that got inside a whitetail’s eye to determine whether deer perceive color at all, and he later worked with Sitka on a camo pattern developed around deer vision rather than human vision.

He starts with the hardware. A deer’s pupil opens about three times wider than ours, which alone is roughly nine times the light-gathering ability, and a reflective layer behind the retina called the tapetum bounces that light back across the rods and cones a second time to roughly double it again. The pupil is a horizontal slit rather than a circle, and it rotates to stay level even when the deer drops its head to feed, so a deer eating acorns is still watching the horizon. They see roughly 310 degrees, whereas we see 120.

Then the tradeoff. Deer have no fovea centralis, they can’t accommodate for distance, and their visual acuity at a stationary object comes in somewhere around 20/40 to 20/60. Karl’s line is that they’d almost need corrective lenses to drive. What they do have is motion. Their eyes stay still and let the image travel across the retina engaging new cones, and they process that visual information roughly four to five times faster than a human does, which Karl suggests means your movement looks to them something like slow motion. That leads into a long back and forth on jumping the string, whether a deer is reacting to the sound at all, and whether it might be seeing the bow flex or even the arrow itself. Beau brings his axis deer footage from Hawaii into it, where the deer were on the ground before the arrow arrived at 25 yards.

The back half is camo, and it’s the most useful stretch of either episode. Karl lays out the two jobs camo has to do, explains why pattern detail matters far less than most hunters think and why outline and spectral match matter far more, and gets into whiteners and brighteners in fabrics and detergents that take ultraviolet light and re-radiate it into exactly the part of the spectrum a deer sees 20 times better than we do. He explains why he stopped wearing blue jeans in the woods, why a whitetail’s tail is white in the first place, why old army camo is actually good camo, and why a shiny fabric can beat you even when the color is right. He also walks through how Sitka’s Cover pattern was developed and what it was actually designed to solve.

He closes with what he calls the take home: hunt the deer’s brain first. There are only three questions in a deer’s head, and everything it does traces back to one of them.

Part one of this conversation is episode 506.

Topics:

00:00:00 — Part two intro

00:07:16 — A deer's eye is built for two jobs, and neither one is looking at you

00:11:32 — Pupil size, and nine times your light gathering ability

00:13:31 — Their eyes rotate to stay level when their head goes down

00:14:23 — The tapetum, and 18 times the light

00:21:21 — Blue cones across the whole retina, and 310 degrees of vision

00:24:49 — 20/40 to 20/60: they'd need corrective lenses to drive

00:27:39 — Flicker fusion, and why your movement looks like slow motion to them

00:28:40 — Jumping the string: the sound, the arrow, or the bow

00:34:29 — Drawing on a quartering deer, and why they don't look up

00:37:20 — What camo has to do, and what it doesn't

00:40:39 — Whiteners, brighteners, and camo that glows

00:42:53 — How Cover got built around deer eyes instead of ours

00:50:08 — Fabric shine, old army camo, and plastic blaze orange

00:54:03 — Hunt the deer's brain first

Dr. Karl Miller’s published research: Google Scholar, search “Karl Miller deer UGA”

Part one of this conversation is Ep. 506

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Beau Martonik sits down with Dr. Karl Miller of the University of Georgia, where he spent 40 years leading deer research and mentoring close to 100 graduate students. Karl grew up hunting the Pennsylvania big woods before he went south for his PhD, and much of what hunters take for granted about rubs and scrapes came out of his lab.

The core of this conversation is signpost communication. Karl walks through why bucks make rubs in the first place, and what one of his students found when he ran a chemical analysis on forehead gland secretions: 67 different compounds, and not one of them in higher concentration in dominant bucks than in subordinate ones. No dominance signal at all. What varies is the mix, deer to deer, which means every buck is leaving something closer to a name than a rank. He also explains why the loser of a sparring match will walk up and lick the winner’s forehead.

Then he gets into scrapes, and the finding he clearly loves most. Scraping activity peaks about two weeks before peak breeding in almost every study ever run on it. Karl’s hypothesis is that this isn’t coincidence or anticipation. It’s that buck urine deposited in scrapes may be acting as a priming hormone on the does, pulling their cycles into synchrony, and the two-week lag matches the length of a doe’s follicular wave. He and a graduate student demonstrated the same mechanism in Eld’s deer using a control group and a group exposed to male urine, and the treated group entered estrus together with enhanced hormone profiles. Then he flips it and explains flehmen, the vomeronasal organ, and how a buck taking doe urine into his mouth routes it past the smelling part of his brain entirely and straight to the part that runs his reproductive physiology. Both sides priming each other.

Also covered: 3,600 rubs per square mile on an unhunted Georgia herd, roughly six per acre; the interdigital gland and the 11 compounds that actually do track with maturity; why a tarsal gland’s smell comes from bacteria and not from the gland; the staph and listeria living on it; the castrated buck that ran an entire rut in two weeks on a testosterone dose they overshot; young bucks making 15 percent as many scrapes as mature bucks; and a stretch where he and Beau land in different places on whether there’s any point in doctoring a scrape.

This is part one of two. Part two is deer vision and camo, and it’s out Tuesday, September 1st.

Topics:

00:00:00 — Intro

00:19:25 — What everybody had wrong about rubs in the seventies

00:25:04 — 67 compounds, and why a rub isn't a dominance display

00:26:09 — Why the loser of a sparring match licks the winner's forehead

00:38:32 — 3,600 rubs per square mile, and how many one buck makes in a year

00:49:08 — The three things a buck does at a scrape

00:52:56 — Why a tarsal gland actually stinks

01:01:45 — 39 bucks on one scrape, and 85 percent of visits after dark

01:04:30 — Scrapes peak two weeks before the rut

01:06:24 — Priming hormones, and synchronized estrus

01:10:09 — Flehmen, and the does priming the bucks right back

01:21:59 — Adding scent to a scrape, and whether it does anything

01:35:00 — What a broken age structure does to the rut you're hunting

Dr. Karl Miller’s published research: Google Scholar, search “Karl Miller deer UGA”

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Beau Martonik sits down with Lee Ellis of Seek One, who has been at this since 2015 and says roughly 90 percent of the deer on his wall are deer he had more than a year of history with before he killed them. Lee is upfront that it’s very rare for him to kill a deer he hasn’t been following, and this conversation is mostly about what that actually costs.

They get into the buck he called Derp, four years of waking up every day thinking about that deer, and the night after he finally killed him when it hit him hard enough that he couldn’t sleep. Lee explains why he thinks a fresh camera picture of a buck working a scrape means you’re already behind him, and how finding one center point in a deer’s rut range beat chasing that deer across seven or eight camera locations. He also talks about a 188 inch public land buck he knew for about four hours and why he says a 140 would have gotten the exact same reaction out of him.

Also covered: taking February through May completely off from deer hunting for the first time in years, patterning Pokémon card restocks with the same brain that patterns deer, what changes when your team grows and other families depend on the season going well, deer that show back up on almost the exact same date year after year, the summer reconnaissance lap he sees in the third week of August, twenty years of door knocking for 95 percent no’s, and why he doesn’t think you call a truly big deer in.

This is part one of two. Part two is one long story, the buck Lee killed in a blizzard at the end of last season, and it lands September 15th, right after Seek One’s film on that deer.

Topics:

00:00:00 — Intro

00:14:16 — The room, and what every mount in it represents

00:18:16 — Obsession, Pokémon, and stepping away from deer hunting

00:31:05 — Burnout, and what changes when people depend on your season

00:40:13 — Branching out, and why a 140 hits the same as a 188

00:48:36 — Derp: four years, and the night it finally hit him

00:57:08 — Why hunting one deer makes you better on every other deer

01:04:01 — Storytelling, the two and a half hour video, and putting the phone down

01:20:41 — Does Lee track any of this, or is it all in his head

01:26:45 — Deer that show up on the same date, and the third week of August lap

01:32:11 — Twenty years of door knocking for 95 percent no's

01:36:24 — Leaving a camera a full year, and the spot in the middle of a rut range

01:44:29 — Cell cameras made a lot of good hunters worse

01:47:56 — Deer personalities, communication, and why you don't call in a big one

01:55:16 — Part two is coming

Lee's IG: https://www.instagram.com/the_roy/

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