Listen to the story, 'The Open Window' by Saki, and then listen to Jessica's Gems. The language points from the story include:

The very useful verb construction 'wonder' and how to use it.

When to use 'if' and 'whether'

Clear up any confusion about 'on time' and 'in time'

We also discuss certain phrasal verbs that were used in the story and other English language bits and pieces.

Here are some notes connected with our discussions:

Possible explanations:

HOW TO USE – WONDER 1) I wonder if + SUBJECT / VERB

• I wonder if it will rain tomorrow.
• I wonder if the train is on time.
• I wonder if Jack is coming to the party.

2) I wonder if + YOU CAN~ / IT’S POSSIBLE TO~

• I wonder if you can tell me where the station is.
• I wonder if it’s possible to send it by regular mail.
• I wonder if we can meet on Thursday next week.

3) I wonder + WH QUESTION WORD

• I wonder what that noise is
• I wonder who opened the window
• I wonder when the meeting will start.
• I wonder where the post office is in this town.
• I wonder why the boss is in a bad mood.
• I wonder how I can get to Jack’s house.
• I wonder how much / how many / how often~

From BBC Learners…How are you Jessica? I’ll do my best to stop you wondering how to use ‘wonder’.In the kind of sentences you have asked about, ‘wonder’ means the same as ‘thing. Saying ‘I am wondering’ uses the present continuous tense. That tense implies that you’re thinking about something right now, at that moment and it emphasises that there’s something you don’t know or you haven’t decided upon. Here are a couple of examples:I’m wondering whether to go to the party or not - means 'I’m thinking about it now but haven’t made a decision yet'.I’m wondering if I should take a taxi to work today.I’m wondering where John is - which means 'I’ve been waiting 20 minutes for her and she still hasn’t arrived'.Let’s move on now to ‘I was wondering’. As it uses the past continuous tense, it implies that you started thinking about a subject before the time of speaking. You state that the ‘wondering’ started in the past. Again a few examples:I was wondering where you had put my sunglasses.I thought I’d call you because I was wondering where you are at the moment.I was wondering if we should go and visit Paula this weekend.Of course, ‘I was wondering’ can be placed entirely in the past and referred to as an action you did yesterday, last week, last month. An example is:Yesterday, I was wondering if we can afford to go to Spain in May.I was wondering last night whether you really love me.As a general rule of thumb, if you are not sure which one to use, then say ‘I was wondering’. The reason is this: if a thought occurred to you (in your head) and then you immediately reported it to your friend, it was still ‘wondered’ in the past. That means saying 'I was wondering’ is always right!Don’t forget that when ‘I was wondering’ is followed by ‘if’ or ‘whether’, it can be a polite frame for a question or request. I’ll leave you with some examples of this:I was wondering if I could take you to the cinema on Friday night.I was wondering whether you’d be able to help me move housenext weekend.I was wondering if you’d mind writing me a letter of recommendation.So now I’m wondering whether the use of ‘wonder’ makes sense to you and I’m hoping it does!

Note from John:

Wonder is a very commonly used structure which can be very useful. It is a structure that is often used to invite the start of a conversation topic. So, to give an example let’s say person A and person B both know Person C. Person A could use this as a way of building a conversation, they could say ‘I wonder how David is getting on in New York’ this is not a statement or a question it is more of an invitation to a topic of conversation. And somehow it is a soft/polite way of asking for something like in the example ‘I wonder if you can help me’

'If and Whether':

Note from John:

 

• But I like this rule that, only use if when something happens dependent on a condition, for example, I will only play tennis if it doesn’t rain tomorrow or I will go shopping if you will come with me. In all other cases whether can be used. I don’t know whether I should wear the blue or white shirt (there is no condition) but if there was, for example I can wear the blue shirt if I spill something down the white one.

 

 

The open window by Saki

My aunt will be down presently, Mr. Nuttel," said a very self-possessed young lady of fifteen; "in the meantime you must try and put up with me."

     Framton Nuttel endeavoured to say the correct something which should duly flatter the niece of the moment without unduly discounting the aunt that was to come. Privately he doubted more than ever whether these formal visits on a succession of total strangers would do much towards helping the nerve cure which he was supposed to be undergoing.

     "I know how it will be," his sister had said when he was preparing to migrate to this rural retreat; "you will bury yourself down there and not speak to a living soul, and your nerves will be worse than ever from moping. I shall just give you letters of introduction to all the people I know there. Some of them, as far as I can remember, were quite nice."

     Framton wondered whether Mrs. Sappleton, the lady to whom he was presenting one of the letters of introduction came into the nice division.

     "Do you know many of the people round here?" asked the niece, when she judged that they had had sufficient silent communion.

     "Hardly a soul," said Framton. "My sister was staying here, at the rectory, you know, some four years ago, and she gave me letters of introduction to some of the people here."

     He made the last statement in a tone of distinct regret.

     "Then you know practically nothing about my aunt?" pursued the self-possessed young lady.

     "Only her name and address," admitted the caller. He was wondering whether Mrs. Sappleton was in the married or widowed state. An undefinable something about the room seemed to suggest masculine habitation.

     "Her great tragedy happened just three years ago," said the child; "that would be since your sister's time."

     "Her tragedy?" asked Framton; somehow in this restful country spot tragedies seemed out of place.

     "You may wonder why we keep that window wide open on an October afternoon," said the niece, indicating a large French window that opened on to a lawn.

     "It is quite warm for the time of the year," said Framton; "but has that window got anything to do with the tragedy?"

     "Out through that window, three years ago to a day, her husband and her two young brothers went off for their day's shooting. They never came back. In crossing the moor to their favourite snipe-shooting ground they were all three engulfed in a treacherous piece of bog. It had been that dreadful wet summer, you know, and places that were safe in other years gave way suddenly without warning. Their bodies were never recovered. That was the dreadful part of it." Here the child's voice lost its self-possessed note and became falteringly human. "Poor aunt always thinks that they will come back someday, they and the little brown spaniel that was lost with them, and walk in at that window just as they used to do. That is why the window is kept open every evening till it is quite dusk. Poor dear aunt, she has often told me how they went out, her husband with his white waterproof coat over his arm, and Ronnie, her youngest brother, singing 'Bertie, why do you bound?' as he always did to tease her, because she said it got on her nerves. Do you know, sometimes on still, quiet evenings like this, I almost get a creepy feeling that they will all walk in through that window - "

     She broke off with a little shudder. It was a relief to Framton when the aunt bustled into the room with a whirl of apologies for being late in making her appearance.

     "I hope Vera has been amusing you?" she said.

     "She has been very interesting," said Framton.

     "I hope you don't mind the open window," said Mrs. Sappleton briskly; "my husband and brothers will be home directly from shooting, and they always come in this way. They've been out for snipe in the marshes today, so they'll make a fine mess over my poor carpets. So like you menfolk, isn't it?"

     She rattled on cheerfully about the shooting and the scarcity of birds, and the prospects for duck in the winter. To Framton it was all purely horrible. He made a desperate but only partially successful effort to turn the talk on to a less ghastly topic, he was conscious that his hostess was giving him only a fragment of her attention, and her eyes were constantly straying past him to the open window and the lawn beyond. It was certainly an unfortunate coincidence that he should have paid his visit on this tragic anniversary.

     "The doctors agree in ordering me complete rest, an absence of mental excitement, and avoidance of anything in the nature of violent physical exercise," announced Framton, who laboured under the tolerably widespread delusion that total strangers and chance acquaintances are hungry for the least detail of one's ailments and infirmities, their cause and cure. "On the matter of diet they are not so much in agreement," he continued.

     "No?" said Mrs. Sappleton, in a voice which only replaced a yawn at the last moment. Then she suddenly brightened into alert attention - but not to what Framton was saying.

     "Here they are at last!" she cried. "Just in time for tea, and don't they look as if they were muddy up to the eyes!"

     Framton shivered slightly and turned towards the niece with a look intended to convey sympathetic comprehension. The child was staring out through the open window with a dazed horror in her eyes. In a chill shock of nameless fear Framton swung round in his seat and looked in the same direction.

     In the deepening twilight three figures were walking across the lawn towards the window, they all carried guns under their arms, and one of them was additionally burdened with a white coat hung over his shoulders. A tired brown spaniel kept close at their heels. Noiselessly they neared the house, and then a hoarse young voice chanted out of the dusk: "I said, Bertie, why do you bound?"

     Framton grabbed wildly at his stick and hat; the hall door, the gravel drive, and the front gate were dimly noted stages in his headlong retreat. A cyclist coming along the road had to run into the hedge to avoid imminent collision.

     "Here we are, my dear," said the bearer of the white mackintosh, coming in through the window, "fairly muddy, but most of it's dry. Who was that who bolted out as we came up?"

     "A most extraordinary man, a Mr. Nuttel," said Mrs. Sappleton; "could only talk about his illnesses, and dashed off without a word of goodby or apology when you arrived. One would think he had seen a ghost."

     "I expect it was the spaniel," said the niece calmly; "he told me he had a horror of dogs. He was once hunted into a cemetery somewhere on the banks of the Ganges by a pack of pariah dogs, and had to spend the night in a newly dug grave with the creatures snarling and grinning and foaming just above him. Enough to make anyone lose their nerve."

     Romance at short notice was her speciality.

 

 

The story reading in this episode is 'An Ideal Family' by Katherine Mansfield about a rich old man who's family are seen by outsiders to be an ideal one, however, the reality is somewhat different.

 

Jessica's Gems:

Myself and Jessica discuss certain language points which were taken from the story: We discuss 'shall vs will,' 'should vs ought to,' 'to be up to vs to be up for' and other gems which are useful insights for any non-native speaker who is trying to get to the next level in English.

 

Very useful resource for intermediate and advanced students of English.

The first part includes a reading of the classic short story 'The Lottery Ticket' by Anton Chekhov. The listener can also read the English text at the same time of listening. The student has to try to understand the idea of the story. Following the story there will be an episode of 'Jessica's Gems' where Jessica (student of English from Italy) asks John (native English speaker and teacher from the UK) questions on some of the language used in the story. They discuss all matters to do with the English language including grammar, pronunciation and vocabulary.

Link to grammar point connected with modal verbs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3L9WDTIzPI

Come and visit us at:

www.englishonair.com

 

In this podcast Jessica and I interview each other in order to share their experiences of learning and teaching the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)

There are two different perspectives, the first from someone who runs pronunciation courses and the second from a former student who has studied on the course.

Visit us at: www.englishonair.com

Transcription:

 

This is the final part of the interview with Norman Mounter where he is talking about his new dark work of historical fiction 'Broken Oaths' which is to be released on the 25th of June 2021.

In Jessica's Gems I am bombarded with language questions from Jessica. We discuss terms like 'heavily pregnant' and pinnacle and she even asks me to explain some medical terms.

Visit us at www.englishonair.com

 

 

Transcript:

This is part 2 of the interview with my dear old pal Norman Mounter. After speaking about his interests in Part 1 he goes on to talk about his soon to be released novel 'Broken Oaths.'

In Jessica Gems once again from the interview she has taken out some of the phrases and language which was naturally used and has formed some very testing language questions for yours truly.

Transcription of Interview:

Speaker 1 (00:00): What about language? Because I know you've got a real interest in language as well. Speaker 2 (00:04): Yeah. I think that stems from much later on. I mean, when I was at school, I loved English. I loved creative writing. I loved reading English, but we were never really taught what I would call the discipline of grammar of rhetoric, all of those kinds of old school subjects. So it was all grammar school subjects where you'd have to learn about proper use of grammar. And that's something that I've, I've had to pick up on my own, but actually it's a fascinating area because you really start to learn the power of how you can use English to be basically most effective in what you want to say. And it's not, it's often the case that you don't need. A lot of words, you just need the right choice of word in an appropriate style that obviously suits you and also is easy to read. And grammar gives you that grammar has many other elements to it apart from spelling and punctuation things. Speaker 2 (01:03): And one of the things really interests me is the, is the word history. So understanding where a word has come from, whether it be, uh, particularly in English, whether it be through the Latin, from the Romans or the Anglo-Saxon, or, you know, even the kind of Celtic derivation, but that's always been fascinating to me. And I think that partly comes from my passion for Tolkien's Lord of the rings. Well, Tolkien's legendarium is very much based on, on a mythology that has strong links with language. You can look at any character or word in Tolkien, and there will be an underlying etymology to that word. You know, he doesn't just pluck them out of air and don't forget, this is a professor of Anglo-Saxon that actually invented his own languages. He invented Elvish, for example, you know, so that influence on me cannot be understated because he was, and still is to be honest, a massive influence on my life. Speaker 1 (02:07): Right. So, so we've sort of touched on your, your interest, especially interested, let's say, cause I know you're interested in lots of things. It's not just those three things, but that's related to the new book that's coming out. You have your, but it's not your first book, but you've, you know, you've been working on this book for a while and I thought you could tell the story where this story came from. What is the story of the new book? Speaker 2 (02:31): The new book is, as you rightly say, it is a fusion of all of these passions of mine, the English, the writing, the history, but also the medicine. It really stems from a period of my life where I was reading a lot about the third Reich and the Nazis and particularly the Holocaust. And I began to delve into a lot of Holocaust literature, particularly firsthand accounts, people that have survived, um, the camps and really, uh, created a huge mark on me. I began to feel more and more hurt by it. And in a way, particularly because I, prior to this point, no one had really ever told me about it. I was never talked about this at school, for example. And I remember seeing Schindler's list in 1994 and being very moved by that. But since then, I've constantly been interested in this part of one other called modern history. Speaker 2 (03:30): And at that point come, I can recall, you know, giving you a message saying, John, I've got, this is idea. It's coming out of me. I'm going to start off on this holocaust train. And I'm going to just see, see where it leads me and the book in that sense, just flowed out of me, probably only taking me about three

months to write if that, and it literally just flowed out. It wasn't in any order, but what it did do for me, it was a kind of purge. It was a catharsis of all of this stuff that had built up inside me over the years of research. And it did help me come to terms with some of the stuff I've written, but it also enabled me to, uh, particularly in the context of my medical training to get inside the head of my main character, my main character is called Dr. Speaker 2 (04:17): Joseph Sarkany. And he is based on a real life pathologist from Hungary, whose name was Miklos Nyizsli. And he wrote a book just after the war called Auschwitz and I witness doctor's account. And he talks about his time working in the crematorium for the infamous Yosef Mengele who had built within the main crematorium, his own laboratory, his own post-mortem room for what I would only describe as pseudo scientific kind of experiments. So again, it was this idea of looking at the medical and the pathological aspects of this man, and also what was going on, what was going on at this time in Germany, this great nation of scientists and of music and literature, this fantastically civilized nation. How could it regressed to a state where you have doctors, nurses, scientists saying what it's okay to kill people under euthanasia. If they've got mental illness or they're they're handicap, it's actually, it's okay to do it. Speaker 2 (05:31): And then of course it, it got worse. It started to go from the euthanasia centers into the wider aspects of ethnic cleansing. Once Hitler had started his war and was basically taking countries like Poland and other Eastern European countries who were deemed to be subhuman the untermenschlich. He used this as an excuse to not only kill them, but also experiment on them as well. So you, this horrible concentration of people in these camps like Auschwitz that are Jewish, but also you have Romany people, you have Poles, Czechs, all these other people that were considered to be basically subhuman being killed or tortured or experimented on. So for me, this was a terrible realization and I still really can't get to terms with it, how the medical profession could have sunk so low during that period of time. And it wasn't just in Germany. I must say the concept of eugenics, this idea of a master race was as much in the world of the American literature as it was in the European literature. Speaker 2 (06:43): But of course, what happened was that Hitler used these doctrines, all these ideas like eugenics and then twisted them and did terrible, terrible things based on these, what I would call spirits doctrines or pseudo-scientific doctrines in order to progress his own megalomania and idea of this master race, this arian race that he wanted to basically have in a brand new Europe. So broken Oaths has many themes running through it, but I think one of the main things for me is this idea of how could this ever happen and how could it have ever happened in the context of the people that were perpetrating it, the doctors and nurses, Speaker 1 (07:28): It seems it germinated into something that you needed, some kind of vent or outpouring, and the way you seem to do it Norm is on paper. You seem to start writing it seems. You know, if we go back to when we were 10 or even pre 10 you, you said earlier that it was this kind of, um, you know, making sense of the world, getting it all out and putting it down on paper and that's what was happening. It seems like you still do it. It doesn't surprise me that Sarkany, the, the lead character of the book you thought about the, the, the name means something in a, in a, in a, in ancient Greek, he was saying, that's very Tolkien

what you were saying about Tolkien. Every, every character, every word seemed to have, uh, relate back to another language, Speaker 2 (08:19): I based, this name on, on the term sark or sarj in Greek, which is basically meaning flesh or body. And I'm sorry, Sarkany for me, the word embodied this idea of a pathologist, working with flesh, working with the bodies, that was his kind of craft. And similarly, in a way, that's what I do as well. I work with tissue. I am a histopathologist and I look at the diseases of tissue through my eyes, through the naked eye, but also under the microscope. And in a way Broken Oaths is looking at this man with my own knowledge of pathology and looking at how he deals with these situations and how he talks about dealing with these situations, particularly when he's doing his autopsy work on, on twins. And he starts to realize that these twins have been murdered. Mengele had injected them in the heart with phenol or some other poison. Speaker 2 (09:17): And it's just, for me, the book was easier to write because I could at least understand what he was talking about from the, from the point of view of the, with the pathology and the medicine. And I think that gives the book as an edge for me, because it's not just me as a writer writing a piece of fiction that I do have experience in this area. So, um, it is fiction, but it's also a semi fiction in the sense that the scenarios that I present in the book are how they are, because I am, as I say, a pathologist, and I try to give the reader that sense of what we're looking at and how we interpret things, particularly how the level of the naked eye. And you can tell a lot, you know, obviously medicine is about, isn't just about cutting up people. Speaker 2 (10:07): Thank goodness. It's about taking a history and doing a proper examination and using various things. But at the end of the day, if you don't know what, what the cause of death is, and there are many cases in this country still where cases are referred to the coroner, the last port of call is the, is the pathologist who is, you know, who is able to open up the body and look at the, the organs and actually see where the disease processes are that manifest themselves clinically, but you don't know exactly what's going on until you see it for yourself. And that's the idea of a Broken Oaths. Speaker 1 (10:42): Did you know, did you work out who the lead character was going to be and what he was going to be called, or did you just write the book and then think about what, who the lead character would be and what his name would be? The book was written, Speaker 2 (10:54): And as I say, in fragments, and then once I began to see a common thread throughout these fragments, I began to build a narrative, but names came much later on John. So I didn't have a name for this person at the time. He was, he was perhaps just this man. I might've had a temporary name that stuck, but certainly some of my characters names have definitely changed since the first writing, but SAR Caney for me, this the words Sark, when you think about it's kind of medical context. So in pathology, you can have what are called sarcomas. You know, tumors are soft tissue. We get words like sarcophagus from Sark soft copper, cause literally means flesh eater. Sark meaning flesh, and feagus coming from the

Greek to eat. Hence the word esophagus and these words, I think for me, build up a richness to the texts. Speaker 2 (11:51): They're not just plucked out of nothing. Sarkany's, his wife is called Eva and she is, in my opinion, the kind of heroine of the novel. In fact, the novel for me is more about her than anybody else. I know he doesn't necessarily come across that way, but she is my true hero. And I think she's partly based on, on my mother that I lost while I was writing it or just before others, I was writing this book and Eva's biggest asset is that she is kind, she is understanding. She gives, she she's generous, she's humble. And all of these qualities are completely in contrast to her husband's and to the world as a whole. And I think for me, Eva is the, is the true, the true heroine of the book. And she goes through some terrible times and there's a scene where she's basically in Auschwitz and really suffering terribly. Speaker 2 (12:50): And she goes through this terrible torture and has to be bought back, um, out of this darkness, by her husband. But ultimately she is a good person because she's kind she's, she's given up so much for her husband's career. And part of the book is about the fact that he does not see it that way. He sees her Jewishness as his downfall. And this is the real paradox because he's lost everything. He feels because he married her. He himself is only half Jewish, which he thinks would have been fine in terms of enabling him to carry on. But because he married a Jewess as they used to call them, and it has Jewish daughters, then he's labeled full Jewish citizen. And hence he loses everything. He loses his, his job, his reputation, his career, which means everything to him. He CA he comes across as very selfish, incredibly selfish and you know, Broken Oaths. Isn't just about doctors breaking their Oaths. What about the oath of marriage? What about the marriage vows? He's completely desecrated those.

In this podcast I get to interview a dear friend from my childhood in the colourful 70s. Norman is now a doctor, pathologist and a writer whose new book is about to be released. We reminisce about the past and he explains the story behind his grotesquely dark and potentially disturbing literature offering.

In Jessica's gems she uses her curiosity about the English language to pull out some of the language from the interview and asks questions in order that I give some insights into terms like: To be trumped, to be freaked out, to be privileged and many more.

www.englishonair.com

Transcription of Interview:

Just give us a little intro into where, you know, where the passion started. So for example, if we spoke about, if we spoke about history, I mean, where, where did the passion, where did that sort of come from? When I was a young boy, I, I used to be very interested in castles and things. And I remember my dad taking me to Dover castle for the first time. And that was, you know, really fascinating. And it began to make me feel this kind of connection with the past and wanting to know more about these, these artifacts and these buildings, particularly. And then I suppose from there, it kind of evolved into other areas of history that I learned at school. And I, I was always very, you know, very absorbed by history and it said, it's a strange one history because you know, it can really turn some people off. Speaker 1 (00:55): And I remember some people in my class being, you know, pretty much, well, you know, why are we learning this? This is complete waste of time and I don't need to know this, but for me it was about, um, a connection with the past. And I think having that understanding of the past, especially in terms of the chronology of the past, which I think is seriously lacking in schools these days, these days you tend to pick up a subject like,I don't know the Spanish Armada, Royal queen queen Victoria, but it's not really in any context. And, you know, you are someone when Magna Carta was signed or when the Spanish Armada happened. They they've got no idea. And I think for me, it was, it was about that sense of, yeah, things have happened over the last few millennia and we are basically living in a world at the moment that is just so much, it's so much entwined in the past. Speaker 1 (01:46): Everything we do, everything we, we say is all about other people, the developed language, the clothes we wear, how would, you know, how would we be here today? You know, talking to you, John, without people in the past have invented electricity and you know, all that kind of stuff. And for me to understand the past gives me not only a sense of orientation in the present, but it helps me to certainly as a writer, empathize with the characters and the backdrop to my novels, that help flesh out the characters, but also give it that kind of realism, not a realism that I can prove because I was never there, but a realism that feels real to me. And I think that's, that's the most important thing for me. It's it's can I, can I get inside this character and almost be there in a time machine, but not really. Speaker 1 (02:42): Hopefully my readers will be able to experience that as well, you know, go into that world that I, that I feel is, is real and, and see if they feel the same. Okay. Well, I mean your, your another passion, you became a doctor, um, long, long time ago now, but yeah, doctor, so you obviously developed an interest that deep interest in, in medicine at some point, knowing you as a boy, it wasn't a question of that, that you wanted to be a doctor from day one. No, absolutely not. I think for me, and it may be the same for other people, but particularly me, I even at school, I had no particular area where I said, you know, I must do this even up to my A levels, John, I was kind of, well, I'd like to do science A levels, but actually I love history so much and I love English so much. Speaker 1 (03:36): I must do those. So I ended up doing a kind of mixture of sciences and arts subjects at A level, but it wasn't really until my second year of a levels that I thought, you know what I think I want to do medicine. I felt that my, my interests were developing, particularly in the kind of biological sciences. I had a fascination for, uh, particularly physiology and the anatomy of the human body. I really wanted to kind of drill down on the fabric of the human body and really just, you know, just explore it like a new planet almost. And of course, very few degrees can allow you to do that apart from medicine medicine. Certainly when I trained, I felt very privileged because people would give their bodies to medical science and we were able to dissect these bodies over, over the course of the first two years and basically through their sacrifice, we could learn, as I say that the fabric of the human body. Speaker 1 (04:35): And I think for me, that was a massive, massive privilege for me. And also something that I'd always wanted to learn when it came to a human being. You can imagine this is a completely different sense of, awe for what you are allowed to do with this person. And knowing that this person given their body for that was, was a massive privilege for me. And I'll never forget that that's something that an experience that I've never had is, is basically having a, a dead body, a cadaver, in front of me and then being able to cut and probe and dissect, you know, it, uh, that must be, absolutely amazing. So I think, yeah, I think it was amazing for me, John. I think others, certainly other people in my year did not like it. And I think you'll find that it depends on the personality of the person, but, um, you know, it does, it can either make you feel completely freaked out, um, and almost, you know, scared to even go near it or it, or it can draw you in. Speaker 1 (05:42): And for me, there was a mixture of both. I obviously was tentative and scared to make that first incision in something that was actually a living human being only weeks before, but I just felt, you know, this person has given their body to me and my colleagues, therefore it was only right that we, we use that body to further the next generation of doctors and, and carry on with that. I think if we, if we'd all have rejected the body, the Cadaver, as you say, that would be an insult to the person to the left, you know? Yeah, I totally get that. But how did you react? Um, coz obviously in the human body, even with my rudimentary knowledge, there's things that would turn and smells that would turn most people's stomachs. Um, how did you deal with, with getting through those barriers or, or was it something it just was easy for you? Speaker 1 (06:39): It wasn't easy. Um, I must just explain two things. Really. There's a difference between doing a postmortem examination, which is basically an examination of someone after death, where the body has not been in any way tampered with. So the body is literally refrigerated until you do the post-mortem. So then when you do the examination, these smells and things that you talk about, they can be difficult to deal with. I agree. And I remember my first post-mortem as a medical student, which wasn't until my third year. And that was a completely different experience from the, from the days of my anatomy. Anatomy, when I was learning was performed on a cadaver that had been already embalmed. So these bodies had been embalmed in formalin. You would essentially access one of the main veins in the leg and then you, using a pump system, uh, perfuse the entire body with a solution of formalin. Speaker 1 (07:41): And that fixes the tissue stops it from, from rotting. So it was a long time and there's no way you could do that without having some sort of, uh, you know, preservation, the old way of doing it, of course, was to literally pick all the body, either in vinegar or more commonly alcohol. I know that when Nelson died at Trafalgar, obviously that's quite a long way away from England and he had to come back for his state funeral, the sailors put him in a barrel of Brandy, I think, or some sort of spirit. And that's how he, he was preserved until he came back to England. But yes. So with, with regards to the dissection, yes, there are smells, but it's much more about a smell of formalin, which is a unique smell you get used to after a while, but it isn't necessarily an unpleasant smell. Speaker 1 (08:34): Okay. So coming to your, your third passion that I wanted to introduce to everyone today, uh, or making them aware is as literature as your writer and also language I'll put those two together. Yeah, I think can probably recall John, when we were both young boys back in the seventies, we both had this drive in us to, to write. And I remember very keenly that both me and you used to keep these little notebooks and we'd be scribbling away day and night writing these fantastical stories. And don't forget, this was at a time when it wasn't particularly, I mean, it, wasn't very common for a boy to do this. I don't think, but we seem to have this desire to write. And I remember at school, one of my primary school teachers telling my mum that Norman, he just writes so much and he just wants to put everything down. Speaker 1 (09:29): But of course he hasn't learned the grammar and the spelling yet. So I was writing this stuff, thinking it was all fantastic, but of course I hadn't learned the discipline of grammar and spelling and punctuation and everything. It was more like a flow of consciousness, but it made sense to me at the time. And unfortunately for me, I really regret it, but I don't have these books anymore. You know, I don't know where they went when they went into, you know, into the loft and then subsequently thrown out. Um, I don't know, but to have had a look back at those and I'm sure you're the same, John, I'm sure you don't have yours either. Do you? No. Do you know what? Most of the, most of the things that I had in, let's say the golden era of my past, my childhood has all gone. Speaker 1 (10:11): Norm, it's all gone, all the toys, all the matchbox toys, the action men, the things that are so iconic of the seventies, you know, star wars figures. You had a lot more than I did, but it's all gone. But I think my sister has something. I blame my mother for my loss of various things. Cause she didn't have much. Um, I mean she was a wonderful woman and have many qualities, but sentimentality wasn't one of them. I remember one, one day coming home and she'd thrown all of my model kits away, not in a kind of, not in a nasty, vicious way. It was at, it was the fact that I was growing up my model kits that I'd had as a child. And you probably remember my monster modeling kits and other things had all been moved into, um, a drawer and they're all collecting dust. Speaker 1 (10:58): And she probably just thought, well, no one doesn't want these anymore. Throw them out. And of course at the time I probably didn't want them either. But now when you look back on them, you think, oh, I just wish I'd kept those because that was part of my growing up. And there's a lot of sentimentality there. I had got some of my model kits, but not all of them. And I think for both of us and we speak for many people of our generation, John yeah. Things like, you know, multiple kits, star wars, figures, old bikes, the old Boxer, and Grifter from the past, you know, all that. Well, that kind of stuff. We kind of yearn for that. And that's why there's such a market for this in, in all these, you know, websites and auctions because people want to connect back to their past particularly toys.

 

This is part 2 of the interview with Eeva Putro who is an actress and the writer of the 2020 screenplay for the film 'Tove' which is a biopic look at Tove Jansson the creator of the world phenomenon 'Moomins'

In Jessica's Gems, we talk about what is meant by 'turning points' and I try to answer more of Jessica's curiosities 

Come and visit us at www.englishonair.com

Transcription:

Speaker 1 (00:11): Interesting guests and teach English at the same time. In this podcast, we have a very special guest. She's an actress and a writer from Finland it's Eeva Putro, this is the second part of Eeva's interview or is it just for work like, so you're asked to write something and then you do it. How do, how does it run with the, with the writing? And mostly it's, it's a calling, a calling for ideas. It's, um, it's not a calling for writing itself. That's more like for this, I need to, I need to write this character or I need to put this into a story, or sometimes I get, gets a feeding that I need to write about this, but the writing itself is not a calling. Right. So it's kind of solidifying ideas if you like and getting them down on paper so that they become something rather than just becoming nothing. Speaker 1 (01:17): Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm very eager to, to create interesting female characters, because I think that the world is lacking a good female characters and that's my, basically that's the call for me create female characters. Okay. I know so many female actors, actresses who are very talented and lacking opportunities to work. So it would be nice to, to create as many female characters as I can or have time to do in my life. Okay. So, so with the thoughts that those characters will have to be played by actors and to give more people work. Yeah. That's one, one side of it. I, I think that, um, all those little girls who, uh, like looking at these movies and TDC areas need role models, more opportunities to see themselves in different roles and different like, strong roles and multilayered, um, roles. And now you, right. Um, well, you certainly have skills in, in a few languages that I know of. So you, your, your mother tongue is Finnish, but when you were in Tove as an actress, so aside from the writing of the screenplay, as an actress, you were speaking in Swedish, I speak to you in English, and I know that you speak Russian. So there's a lot of languages flying around there. Do you write in different languages? Speaker 1 (03:19): Basically, I write most fluently in Finnish, of course, but that's the second fluent writing language is Swedish, perhaps because I used to practice a lot by, um, messaging with people in, in Swedish language. And, uh, and the third one is basically English. I've written a screenplay in English once, but I guess it's still, um, a thing that is that's slows me down a bit too much if I try to write in English or in, in Swedish, Speaker 2 (04:00): You're absolutely right. Writing in your mother, tongue is far easier, um, than writing in a second or third language. I think that goes without saying, but the, the screenplay that you wrote in English, which one was that? What, what was that about? Speaker 1 (04:18): It was, uh, the thesis work in, in my school, uh, screen writing university. Speaker 2 (04:28): I would lots of read that Eeva. Speaker 1 (04:34): Uh, it's only the second draft and I would need to rewrite it. Speaker 2 (04:40): Okay. But I might, so I'm allowed to ask you again in the future, if I could read that, because it'd be really interesting. So go going back to Tove that the, the actual screenplay, uh, which, so it was in Swedish. Um, they, they, they, the, the language is the same was in Swedish. Did you write it, did you write the screenplay in Swedish Speaker 1 (05:03): No? I wrote it in, in Finnish, but it was translated into Swedish language and into English too, because there were so many people who needed to comment and give feedback. And then I started again in Finnish, and then it got translated and so on. So writing is really writing. So that's why we needed to translate it many times. Speaker 2 (05:34): Do you think that, um, what about Russian? Have you ever written anything like a screenplay, for example, in Russian? Speaker 1 (05:41): Um, good question. No, to write in Russian it's far too slow for me, because those really Cyrillic, uh, how, how, how do you say it? Speaker 2 (05:56): Mm, uh, letters, Speaker 1 (05:59): Uh, pace. Speaker 2 (06:01): Okay. Well that must, that must be really, really difficult. It's hard enough to write in another language, but when you've got another alphabet, that must be really, really difficult. Speaker 1 (06:11): I can speak quite fluently in and I can act obviously in Russian, but to write it's so slow that I don't have, I can't say I, I could write in Russian. Speaker 2 (06:27): Okay. If have you got then have you got a favorite writer or, or a favorite book that you can tell us about? Speaker 1 (06:34): Unfortunately, most of them are written by men. I tried to find something which is, which would be very important for me written by female authors. Um, but my, one of my favorites is Mika Waltari with Sinuhe, Egyptian. Speaker 2 (06:58): You know what, that's one of the, I, that's the only book of Mika Valtari that I've actually read. So, yeah. Okay. So [inaudible], Speaker 1 (07:09): Did you like it Speaker 2 (07:12): To be, to be honest, I could, it was one of those situations where I could completely see that he was a fantastic writer, but the story somehow didn't didn't go well with me. It was so detailed, but it didn't grasp me where I just, I was so, so it was a book that I could put down. Whereas if I have read certain books, you know, very rarely, I would say that I find a book that I can't put down, but that's the loveliest thing. When you find something that you literally cannot put down, but I didn't find that with that story. And it may have been the incredible detail that, that he wrote the story. Speaker 1 (07:57): I love details stories. Uh, for example, one of my favorites is, um, Marcel Proust . Speaker 2 (08:04): Yes. Yes. I've not read any of his work, but yeah, yeah, I know him Speaker 1 (08:11): I adore how he his writing and yeah, that's fine. Others. I love Roald Dahl Speaker 2 (08:22): All ever. That's that's nice because I introduced you to Roald Dahl. No you didn't, I thought I did Speaker 1 (08:32): From him. Speaker 2 (08:35): Cause we'd been reading Ronaldo's stories. Short stories. Yes. Okay. Speaker 1 (08:41): From before. And I also like: Tolstoy, Steinbeck, Speaker 2 (08:48): You've got, I mean, just the, the writers that you've just mentioned, there's a big variation. They're all different. If you're doing, um, writing projects for work, what happens on those days when you're not really feeling creative or you're not on form, how do you deal with that? Speaker 1 (09:10): Then I'm a master of a procrastinating. So maybe I'm cleaning my home. And, um, I don't know, doing anything that comes into my mind. I go out and go to the gym to swim anything, Speaker 2 (09:36): Anything but doing that that's right. That's probably a good tactic. I would say Speaker 1 (09:43): Usually it helps because when I come home, I might be very, um, inspired to write and can't wait to take my laptop, and Speaker 2 (09:56): It's just the thing, mood changes. Doesn't it, it always changes. It never stays exactly the same. So it's sometimes best not to fight it and just go with it. Um, what's the, the best compliment you must've had plenty of compliments in your life, but what was the most sort of the best or the most memorable compliment that you've ever had? Speaker 1 (10:21): I'm quite good at forgetting about compliments. I don't know why it's a problem. I guess I should remember them and write them down and, uh, and take them when I feel depressed. Of course. But maybe someone told me once that I'm a comedian actress or I'm a, Um, very funny. That felt very good. Speaker 2 (10:53): Okay. Okay. Well, I mean, was it a comedy role you were doing or were you in some kind of workshop or Speaker 1 (11:01): Yes, it was some role. And one of my friends, uh, a movie director told me that they were, they had been talking about me with someone else and talking about my comedic skills, comic skills, comedic skills, and that felt especially good bit. Speaker 2 (11:24): Have you done any roles where you've been very dark? Speaker 1 (11:29): Yes. I guess I have done those too. Speaker 2 (11:33): Can you think of a role where you had to play someone with, you know, who was, who had a dark side to them or? Um, Speaker 1 (11:43): Not so that it would be like a psychopath or anything yet, but maybe in the future, that would be a challenge. Speaker 2 (11:54): Wouldn't it? Would you like to play a psychopath or some kind of, Speaker 1 (11:58): Yes, that's one of my dreams and I know that I could do it. Speaker 2 (12:06): I think you could do it. You can do it very well. Okay. Um, if you could go back to your younger self, if you could travel in time and you could go back to your 18 year old self Eeva Putro at 18, what advice would you give to Eeva Putro at 18? Well, she need any advice, Speaker 1 (12:33): Maybe not. She was very determined back then. Maybe I would say that you should trust, trust yourself and trust your instincts and just do it, listen to your heart. And don't waste time with listening to other people who are trying to stop you or Speaker 2 (13:01): Yeah. And even their intentions may be good as well. It's just that you know yourself better than anyone else. Speaker 1 (13:10): Of course they, all people meant good. Cause I'm not saying that they weren't would have been, Speaker 2 (13:19): I totally agree about trusting your instincts, trusting your own instincts. Um, sometimes that goes against what other people want for you or think that you should do. I think if you trust yourself, Speaker 1 (13:35): But it's, it's difficult to say. Um, because many times all those, uh, sideways are important too, because for, for a person to, to become herself, you need those, uh, like down downhills or Speaker 2 (13:54): Down times, there are times where you, where things aren't all going. So, so well, Speaker 1 (14:00): It's good. Good to believe in your projects and believe in you. Cause sometimes get something, some, some, some someday it can, or like all this work is like coming back to you. Speaker 2 (14:17): Yeah. Well, the effort that you've put in over the years is starting to come back. You're getting the, the fruits of your efforts. And I feel because this is when I sort of, when I first knew you or first got to know you or first met you even, um, it seemed like this is your, this is the zone where it's all going really well really well. So I've not known you when, when you've obviously like with any actress and any sort of, um, performer in creative arts, they must have times where it's very difficult to get roles. There must be times where the phone's not ringing anymore and it must be an anxious feeling. Um, but ever since I've known you, I think it it's, uh, it's on a high, so 2021 we're in a new year. What are your plans for 2021 continue working hard and trying to complete my, um, projects and trying to try my best with my auditions and trying to learn new accents and new, um, words but to improve all the time. Well, okay. Well, all of my questions have been asked and I want to say thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to interview Eeva it has been a pleasure Speaker 3 (15:54): Now for the highlights Jessica's gems Speaker 2 (16:10): Yeah. Um, what do you, turning points? What does turning points mean? Right. Turning point, um, is kind of in the word itself. Um, and it's very often, it's very often, um, relating to someone's life. For example, if, if anyone at anyone that's reached adulthood can look back on the line of their life so far how it's progressed or what's happened and they can think, okay, they can find turning points. In other words, it's a, uh, an event or a period of time when something happens that takes you away from the path or takes you to a different path. So for example, and it could be so many different things. Um, if I can, if I, I think the first turning point in my life was moving from London to a little village in the, on the, you know, close to the sea, because know, so completely changed from living in a big city, to living in a small village. Speaker 2 (17:28): And my life in the two locations was very, very different and it went on a different path. Um, and I think, I believe that more or less anyone can look back to a significant event in their life, which changed. And in other words, that's a turning point and a turning point could be lots of things. It could be a marriage when you got married, it could be when you got divorced, it could be when you got ill or it could be when you moved to another country, it could be so many things and everyone's got different turning points. And, and Jessica, if you look back on your life, can you think of what a turning point would be? Speaker 4 (18:18): No, of course when I moved to Finland, it was a turning point because really it's a different country, different culture, different people. If you compare with Italians and with Italy actually, uh, it was, uh, when I got ill, um, six years ago, actually another turning point. Yeah. Know exactly what I mean then. Yeah. I mean, yes. Speaker 2 (18:49): Yeah, of course go back from the beginning of your life, to what you can remember the far reaches of your memory. And think the first turning point was when we moved from, you know, to Milan or whatever, um, or you could go the other way, which you just did. Your last big turning point was moving to Finland before that was getting ill before, you know, so you can go whatever way, but I think everyone's got turning points. I, you know, I've never actually Speaker 4 (19:19): Think so. Speaker 2 (19:20): I think so when they get to an adult age, I mean, obviously if they're young, like pre 10 they might not really have any, but I think by the time you get to an adult, I would say most people would have a turning point where something, an event has changed, changed their path. Yeah. Speaker 4 (19:38): Uh, but, uh, of course they are the turning points, in my opinion, in some, in some way they are necessary because they it's a way of, uh, improving yourself. I mean, if you don't change yourself, if you don't, I mean, if you are stuck in a, in your routine is really, it is like to be dead. It's the same thing. In my opinion, even though some turning points are painful, painful and, but then is they're necessary to improve yourself. Speaker 2 (20:16): I, I, I of course agree, but I think that it's almost impossible to go through life without having them because they're very forced on you as well. You know, for example, illness, you know, you can get you to go through very little change for your, for most, most of your life. In other words, you could live in the same town or village or whatever, but in the end there will be things to face in the end, there will be turning points and you might not be honest until you want. So, yeah, exactly. So I would say they are part of life. Yeah. Very good. Okay. So you understand what a turning point is really? Without any doubt that I need that I have a curiosity, what is the West End. Oh, the West End. Okay. So that must've come out in Carly's interview. Yeah. Well she, yeah, well, the West end is, um, is basically an area of London and it's, it's specifically known for theaters, very, very many theaters, many really established ones that have been there for hundreds of years. Speaker 2 (21:37): Um, and in a way people may, may have heard of Broadway, New York, that's like theater land of New York. And the West end is theater land of London. So it's like in a very established place, which is synonymous with theater and acting. So that's what, so she was happy because she got into a play Romeo and Juliet in the West end. And that means there is not in a periphery theater. It's actually right in the center of theatre land, which meant, you know, is quite good for a career at that time. So that's why it was sort of a lot, a lot of that is especially theater actors, dream of getting into the West end or dream, you know, to get into a show in Broadway. So it's kind of, um, an achievement to be able to do it. Speaker 5 (22:30): Don't forget to comment when something is on your mind, check us [email protected]. Bye.

 

 

 

 

This is the first part of the interview with the woman who wrote the screenplay for the 2020 released film 'Tove,' which is the story of Tove Jansson who is the creator of the worldwide phenomenon 'The Moomins'

Included in Jessica's Gems is a conversation about gesticulation and what different gestures can mean.

https://www.englishonair.com/

Transcript:

Speaker 1: (00:08)

This is the podcast where we interview interesting guests and teach English at the same time. In this podcast, we have a very special guest. She's an actress and a writer from Finland it's Eeva Putro. This was recorded in a very early part of 2021

 

Speaker 2: (00:28)

Your, I'll take your idea and, throw it straight back to you. Okay. How would you describe yourself given three adjectives? So you can only use three adjectives. How would you describe yourself? Happy, creative, um, crazy in a good way. Crazy crazy. I've watched you mean crazy. I'm crazy about learning new things and crazy about, um, practicing, practicing my profession, practicing my favorite things. Okay. Well, can I add one word in, can I put one word in? I don't know you very well, but I getting to know you a bit now, um, over the last few months, and I would put determined, determined, or you're one of the most determined people I've ever met. So I would definitely think you're determine, okay. Now what things inspire you Eeva you're in a creative industry and so you must sort of be inspired I guess, by other people's projects.

 

Speaker 2: (01:43)

Um, I'd say challenges inspire me always. Um, if I get something like some like a new role or a new challenge, um, in my work, it always gets me inspired, especially when, when I, when I have, uh, the opportunity to work with his inspiring persons and so other people. And can you think of, uh, a challenge that's been put upon you that you found the most inspiring? Is there some sort of example you can, you can think of perhaps language like speech, uh, how to, um, how to learn new accent or things like that. Um, that you're trying to sort of get to a position where you can do a British accent when needed or, when you're auditioning and also an American accent, and I've seen the kind of things that you sort of what you've sort of practiced and what kind of journey you've, you're going on, or presently going on, you know, so, so I have a little bit of an insight for that, which brings me, how do I know you Eeva how do you know me?

 

Speaker 2: (03:14)

I know you, um, cause I went to Arbis, uh, course to take a course in English pronunciation. And you were the teacher that's right. And, and what, what led you to, I mean, that was obviously the first time I saw you, but what were the steps leading up to that? Why were you on that course? I was there because, uh, I had just, just sort of started with my, um, new agent with my first international agent and started to, um, do self-tapes in English. And I, I had realized that I urgently need to, um, improve my English. So I decided to find a way to get better in this field. Yeah. And it has, your English has got better from a teacher point of view from seeing, you know, kind of where you, uh, when you first came to the steps that you've made to the improvement you've made.

 

Speaker 2: (04:26)

It's incredible. Absolutely. And I appreciate your help, like highly, because, uh, that course was something like, it, it felt like it was, um, secret weapon or how would you put it? I think that's, that's a good way of putting it. It gave you an insight into using a tool. What was that tool ever for people that are listening, you learned? The tool was, uh, the symbols, because, um, it helps, uh, people like me who, um, who, who are very, uh, visual to understand the sound, which are like different from finish sounds. And we can like organize them for yourself. So you're talking about the international phonetic alphabet symbols. Exactly. Which you probably may have seen in the past, but you, you really took it on board to learn them with a great determination and you did learn them. And, and, um, you know, um, you were, it really improve your reading and everything.

 

Speaker 2: (05:38)

Once you knew the symbols. Yeah. Nowadays I can, um, write like easily with symbols. And it helps me a lot when I, when I see a word, which is not, uh, familiar for me, I can like find out how to pronounce it and, and do it like with only by seeing the symbols. And that helps so much. You, you can' I know you can, I know you can read phonetics and what I mean, just for the benefit of anyone that's listening. When we have a session together nowadays, we often read from the same screen, don't we, we read short stories, et cetera. And I think you've, you now have, you can guess what a word would be in English now, even if you don't know that word, and that is your somehow the patterns of English, which let's face it a very strange at times, phonetically speaking, think you very, very often, even if the word is new, will guess it gets it correctly.

 

Speaker 2: (06:47)

And that that's that somehow those phonetics have really helped. You got a feeling that you, you you've somehow got a feeling for it now, which, which is great, which is, which is very inspiring. For those, because obviously this, um, podcast, there might be people listening all over the world. I don't know. There might be three people listening or no people listening, but one day hopefully someone in the Philippines or somewhere, someone in the Far East, um, may listen to this. So you are an actress in Finland and you're also a writer in Finland. So then you have two, two professions going on. If you like, you're most famous, I think for your, for the project that you did in 2020, I think I'm, I don't know much about, um, you know, production in Finland. I have to say. I mean, there's lots of celebrities that I don't even know to be honest, but what was the biggest project you did that came out in 2020?

 

Speaker 2: (07:54)

Um, I guess you mean Tove I wrote where, uh, where I do have a role too do you mean that one? Yeah, I do mean that one and I didn't want to be disrespectful cause I know you've done lots of things. It's just that, that's the one that I went to see and I really, really, really enjoyed. And could you explain who Tove is because in Finland she's an icon she's huge. And she's very well known or was very well known throughout the world, but why was she so well known? I mean, who is she? She's the creator of 'The Moomin' characters, like cartoonist, artist, writer. She's mostly famous, uh, from her work with, um, women characters, but basically she did so much, she has a huge amount of, uh, adult books that she wrote and books for children, uh, pictures that she drew.

 

Speaker 2: (09:08)

Is it correct? Yeah, correct. Yeah, drew, um, in the past yes. Paintings and everything. So she was such a creative person and very, um, brave. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Now the 'Moomins' were big or well known throughout the parts of the world. I mean, this is not easy. Could you give an explanation, let's say to someone that doesn't know the 'Moomins', um, initially there were like small characters that she drew for herself to, to make her happier during the war. And, um, but they were like something that she carried, carried with her and uh, like signed, she always signed her paintings with this small, uh, character Tove that, and then there was this small troll. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then after, after the war, she published some books for children, um, about those small trolls. And basically it was, um, like place where she could escape from, from this tough world was filled with war and bombs and everything.

 

Speaker 2: (10:48)

Yeah. And, and even cause her father was an artist, but he didn't, he didn't appreciate these characters. Did he? He thought she was wasting her talent. So yeah. So, so I, I guess, uh, it was Tove's, uh, like, um, own, perspective too. She also thought that this is something like for children and it's not so important in her career. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, people read a lot into the different characters though, don't they, you know, somehow it it's very popular among adults as well. It's not just the children's thing. Yes. I adore those stories and I know many, many adult people who love them, almost sure. The show who's your favorite character Eeva. Perhaps the little Myy, but I knew you were going to say that. Yeah. Okay. You're you're an actress. And a writer and what I mean, this probably is a stupid question, but what do you, what do you prefer?

 

Speaker 2: (11:58)

Is there, have you got a preference over the two because obviously they're very different, different skills involved with acting and writing. Have you got a preference for the two, maybe acting still it is more like, um, I can, you can, um, connect with, with people and can move and use your body. It's more like, um, being alive. Yeah. Yes. More physical, more physical. Definitely. But of course writing is fun too, but it's not, so it's not so difficult. I would say it's, it's easier for me than acting and acting is therefore my favorite thing, because it's challenge because it goes back to what you said that you enjoy challenges. Okay. Always such a huge mystery. Would you say like that? You could say it like that. Yeah. How to, how to find this character in, in me, how to find this and that. And it's it's so it's intriguing.

 

Speaker 2: (13:24)

Do you, I mean, with the writing side, because I know you're, you're doing projects at the moment through, for work writing projects, do you have, which some writers have, which is a kind of need to write? I mean, does, do you have an idea when you think I've got to write that that's got to be done a caling, if you like, do you have a calling to write. So when you get an idea, you have to write, you have to write it or is it just for work? Like, so you're asked to write something and then you do it. How, how does it run with the, with the writing to the second part of the interview with Eeva in the next podcast, but now it is what you've all been waiting.

 

Speaker 3: (14:09)

[inaudible]

 

Speaker 2: (14:28)

Another question or I dunno, expression, or 'to have an edge'. Could you explain to me the meaning of that, this expression, this expression, as far as I know, as far as, you know, obviously I'm listening to sorts of conversations,

 

Speaker 1: (14:53)

Uh, either live conversations or on films and meet through the media, et cetera. I think this expression 'to have an edge' is having its time at the moment it's being used very often. Now it's one of those high frequency phrases, if you like. And it has, it may have more than two meanings, but I can think of two meanings straight away. Okay. Two completely separate meanings. The first meaning 'to have an edge' could be used as a synonym in order to have an advantage. If, for example, you could say, um, if there were two tennis players playing and there was sort of one tennis player was say in his forties and the other tennis player was in his twenties, you might think that the younger guy as the game gets, you know, goes along and it goes into four, four or five sets. You would think that the younger guy would have an advantage over the older man.

 

Speaker 1: (16:05)

So you could say, well, the longer the game goes on, the more likely the young guy 'will have an edge' over his opponent due to tiredness. So that's one, I mean, to have an advantage, but it means the same as to have an advantage. Okay. The other one, um, is a little bit more subtle, a bit different because if someone has an edge and it's, it's not an advantage, we're not talking about an advantage here. If, if someone said to me, Oh, um, Jessica's really nice. Um, she's, she's really got an edge now. I would, I wouldn't think Jessica has got an advantage. What I would think is that Jessica is not frightened to say something, uh, to get a react, to get a reaction. Like let's say, um, if she doesn't believe in something, even if people around her could be, you know, somehow I dunno, older, or it could be a situation where they're sort of, I don't know, high high-powered individuals.

 

Speaker 1: (17:15)

You'd still state your opinion. Even if it upsets, slightly upsets someone or someone had a very different opinion. So, or you might be ready to have a joke, a laugh when some people might turn around and think, Oh, that was a, that was a bit naughty, what she said, but you know, is to have an edge. Uh, me personally, I love people with an edge because it makes things, you know, interesting. If everyone just behaves themselves 100%, sometimes it's not that interesting, but if someone's got an edge, you might expect them to say something throughout the night that you're going to look back at what they said, and you're going to laugh or you'll kind of say, Oh, I can't believe he said that in front of whoever. So, so most of my friends, I would say I've got an edge. It's almost pre-requirements okay. So I know, try to explain that. Well, yeah, that's what it means. It's a bit risque. It's someone that's not frightened to take risks in order either to get, grab some humor out of a situation or say something that's quite contentious that not everyone's going to agree with or accept, so it could start a debate. Yeah. Okay. All right. That's that's the other way. And there might be other, other meanings for that expression, but they're the two that come to mind that's enough for now. Okay. That's fine.

 

Speaker 4: (18:48)

Another of the things I was really, uh, I laughed about that he's about 'gesticulation'. So, uh, because you know Italians, uh, they have a lot of Gestures, um, do the British actually British or English people gesticulate when they speak, for example,

 

Speaker 1: (19:10)

That's a good question. But do you, I mean, obviously you, you are Italian. Um, are you aware that out of, if you asked a hundred people from all over the planet, which culture is so, is known for gesticulation, I think most people would say Italians really are at the end of the spectrum. I think Italians gesticulate more than anyone else. I know which is very endearing. I think it's really nice of course, but in a way, I mean, you live in Finland as well, maybe Finns, are the least, or, or on the other side, they don't seem like they gesticulate very much. He liked very much, well, I would say again, we've got this spectrum. I would say Italian from one side, let's say Finns and probably lots of other cultures as well. On the other side. Yes, of course. I would say the Brits maybe somewhere in the middle because they do, especially if they become emotional, you know, they start to use their hands to express things. They start to become, they, they, you know, they just gesticulate more if they're emotional. Whereas, you know, people have said to me that you could listen to two men on a street corner gesticulating to each other and speaking passionately to each other. Some people would think, Oh, they must be arguing. Or there's something really, really important going on, but it might just be about the football on Saturday.

 

Speaker 1: (20:47)

So yeah. So, so I think, I think the Brits are somewhere in the middle. It does depend on an, on the individual, of course, but as a culture, I would say somewhere in the middle,

 

Speaker 4: (21:00)

But to do you know, some Italian gestures.

 

Speaker 1: (21:02)

Oh no, I don't. I think that, I don't think the Brit apart from rude gestures, you know, if someone, you know, in the car, you know, there's different ones for that.

 

Speaker 4: (21:13)

Yeah. The car, especially in the car,

 

Speaker 1: (21:16)

It's especially in the car, but what about others? Is there others in Italian that you can do? That just means something.

 

Speaker 4: (21:27)

Actually there are a lot, but it depends of which parts of Italy you're from, because I'm from the North of Italy. So we don't have the, for example, some gestures that in the South, perhaps people have, but of course there is, this one is a one of the most,

 

Speaker 1: (21:51)

Right. So you're going like that. I'd let me try to explain what you're doing. You're, you're kind of, you're putting your fingers together and your hand upside down. So your Palm of your hand,

 

Speaker 4: (22:03)

Uh, I think they call it to the purse, so like the fingers are like a purse,

 

Speaker 1: (22:09)

A purse right yeh. Yeah. Okay. Yes, because that's our lips as well. Same thing. Right? So your hand is pursed your fingers and your thumb are touching each other at the tips. Yeah. And so what does that, what does that mean?

 

Speaker 4: (22:27)

Uh, for me, what do you want?

 

Speaker 1: (22:32)

Oh, and also what you're doing. You, haven't got your hand still, it's moving from, towards your mouth and back again, like, ah, so it means,

 

Speaker 4: (22:44)

Yeah. Your mouth, no, no, absolutely not

 

Speaker 1: (22:50)

So it means, you know, what's up. What do you want? Why are you looking at me or something like that. Okay. All right. Interesting.

 

Speaker 4: (22:57)

It's simple. If you do this kind of movement, if you want to explain user, are you made or

 

Speaker 1: (23:04)

Yeah. That's, that's, that's another one. Exactly. So a Brit would do that as well. They would take the circular movements with their index finger towards the temple. The side of their head means that they're kind of, you know, are you crazy? Have you lost your mind?

 

Speaker 4: (23:23)

You try to describe, for example, that people, you know, when you are doing like that, see he's mad or she's mad.

 

Speaker 1: (23:33)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. When you are saying this, I realise that a lot of these gestures do actually mean something. So this is, that's the same in Britain. Someone could do that. in Britain, for sure.

 

Speaker 4: (23:45)

Think, yeah.

 

Speaker 1: (23:47)

I don't know if, you know, you might not know the answer to this or if there is an answer to this, but do you know if there's any gestures that mean something different in different parts of Italy? In other words, if you did something in the Northern part of it, it could be but I'm not sure because, um, and I don't know, but the, I know for example, um, in the South they have this kind of, uh, uh, just, okay. We don't, we say 'tutting' that that's called a 'tut'. Uh, took, ah, yeah. It's like, um, yeah. It's like, it's almost, is it showing, um, is it so you don't don't approve of you say no, but we don't have in, in the North, I mean, in my family, because I don't know in the other families, but in the North we don't use it. Yes. We, that is something in England or Britain as well. If someone 'tuts' it, sign showing disapproval, I don't approve of what you're doing or saying. So it's kind of a little, can be a bit rude to just go like that, because it's basically saying, I don't agree with you or I don't like your behaving or something.

 

Speaker 5: (25:15)

You have been listening to the English podcast. We hope it was okay. And that you follow ups from lots of free English learning material, visit our website and visit us again soon, all the best.

This is the second part of the interview with Carly Tancredi. In this part she shows off some of her singing talent in English and in Italian. 

We also look into some phrases that were used in the interview

https://www.englishonair.com/

Transcript:

Speaker 1 (00:18):

[inaudible] welcome to English. This is a podcast to help non-native English speakers to widen their

English. We interview nice people. And then we have Jessica's gems where she asks me questions. And I

try to give some insight into the meanings. Early in 2021 I was lucky enough to interview my niece, Carly

Tancredi, who has an interesting story to tell. And this is the second part

Speaker 2 (00:51):

You were in quite an interesting field when you were back living in England. And I remember going to

see you in shows. I remember going to see you in Romeo and Juliet in the West end. So, and then you

played the understudy of Juliet. Unfortunately, I didn't go, but I know my mum went to see you in

another, you know, some of the family. Yeah. So you were kind of doing well, I mean, you would on the

cusp. I would say then that was my, um, that was what I wanted to get into the West End, and that's

what I was aiming for. And I managed to fulfill that dream. I did it, if it, even if it was once, I did it. That

was always my passion, as you know, from, from a child. And, you know, I went for that more than

actually going off to university.

Speaker 2 (01:44):

Didn't use that training. Very good quality training. Yeah. So at that time, when it all looked like you

were on the cusp of having some kind of West End career, then you went to the Disney Boat, is that how

it works? That's what happened. I did run Romeo and Juliet and then got a job on the cruise, on the

Disney cruise. Now I think if I could turn back the clock, I wouldn't have got on that cruise. If I had

someone advising me actually to say, think about this. Um, I think at the time it felt like a dream because

thinking on Disney, Caribbean main I was the lead singer on the cruise. And I just thought, Oh, this is a

dream I have to do it, What an experience. But, when I look back now, it probably would have been met

him. I would have been better off to stay, and you have know these things. Life goes how it goes. I do

wonder though if I stayed in the West End unit. Cause it's like that. If you're, once you're in a show, you

generally show hop these were, these are turning points. Everyone has Turning points in their life. And

we've just spoke about a turning point when you moved to Italy. So the turning point, when you decided

to go the Disney

Speaker 3 (03:00):

Disney ship, instead of staying in the West end like to, you know, show hop, cause you just, um, that was

also a really important turning point. And I had a chat with you at that time. It's another chat that we

had. Um, and I think if, um, I remember rightly I said to you, well, cause you already had the contract for

the Disney ship or it was there. The contract was there waiting to sign and you were, you had sort of

doubts about what the best thing to do or what it would be. And I remember at the time, because

obviously we've liked as well. You think about money as well. You know, you've got to pay the bills, pay

the rent, et cetera. And it was a case of staying in the West end, but not having a contract or, or going

for something that you've got the contract there.

Speaker 3 (03:51):

You're going to earn decent money. And I remember saying to you, well, at the end of the day, they

haven't given you a contract yet for the West End. If you had another contract to sign and continue. So

you didn't know your, I said, at least you've got something actually, something there on the table. I don't

know if that was good advice or not. I mean, it sounds good, but I don't know if it was because it was

definitely, um, you know, obviously it would have taken you in a different direction if you had stayed,

but that was my advice at the time. And I don't know if I could give that same advice now

Speaker 2 (04:28):

Sometimes you can't turn back the clock, but I mean, I still, I had an amazing experience travel wise and

everything that I did there, but I do feel like it kind of, what can I say? I dunno, it took me away from the

West end, which I've got a feeling. If I'd stayed, maybe my career would have grown, but then maybe it

might not have. So, I mean, that's the nature of the beast in this, these, this kind of, you know, that

career acting career.

Speaker 3 (04:56):

Well, I Remember you telling me, cause obviously you've told me lots of stories over the years. And I

remember, um, there was some low points with the auditioning, which lots of actors have to go through

and you were really just fed up. There were a couple of things that they would just, you know, you're

expected to do anything. And I remember one, one story that your agent sent you to an audition, wasn't

it on roller skates, something. So

Speaker 2 (05:24):

I remember that it was, I mean, I, I am not a dancer. I'm a singer actress really. And I always struggled

with the dancing cause you have to, if you do dancing, you've got to really go and do a dancing course to

get to that level chose. And I was never really a dancer. I was a more singer-,actress, you know, for

musicals and they did, literally send me off to a, an audition for Starlight express. And I mean, the

dancers, there were amazing. And I was thrown into it and I couldn't pick up a routine that quick, you

know, and I did feel really, really silly. And I just thought this is not for me. You know I feel really silly

here. This is not for me. I think what happens on the cruise unfortunately I did gain a little bit of weight

and that's what happened when I got back, I was going up for auditions, but I was at I'd actually gained

weight quite a lot from when I left in London.

Speaker 2 (06:15):

Cause I was when I was in the show, obviously in Romeo and Juliet, I was really thin playing Juliet and

then gone off and did gain a bit of weight. And you know what it's like in that, in that business, if they're

sending to auditions in you are up for a young juvenile lead, you've got to fit the image there, what

they're looking for. And I think that's what set me back. It wasn't the talent. It was this, they were always

amazed by my audition, but I was overweight for, for young Juvenile lead. And do you know what that

made me turn around the think? This is not for me because

Speaker 3 (06:52):

You have to lose weight and you didn't feel natural about that either.

Speaker 2 (06:56):

Hi, because I'm somebody, that's why I think I fit in quite well here. I'm quite passionate for eating and

cooking. And that is part of the Italian culture that I really fit into. I don't have to be able to feel relaxed

and enjoy myself. I realized that at the time I thought, how can you live a life, obviously, because when

you do acting or dancing or singing, you have to, it's not just that that you're doing, you've got to, you're

not allowed to eat. You have to be stick thin. Um, but then obviously you got to imagine a casting

director is obviously if you go and see a show awful to say, but obviously young juvenile, romantic lead,

if she was particularly as a way it would maybe look wrong. And it's horrible to say that, but

unfortunately that is the nature of the beast. So to speak. I think if I was to go back now, I will be up for

young juvenile leads anymore. I'd be out more for middle age. Maybe, you know, mummy roles may be,

I don't know,

Speaker 3 (07:57):

Be more likely to get a sort of middle-aged mummy role and, and the, the gaining a few pounds would

not affect you in the same way when you're in early twenties.

Speaker 2 (08:08):

Yeah, definitely. I mean, there were a lot of actresses that from kind of once they come out of that

young juvenile lead look, they have a massive break anyway, because they cannot find a job because

they're in the middle of young juvenile lead, but they don't look quite old enough to play a mummy role.

And they're not young enough to look like a young juvenile interest. So generally I think a lot of

actresses go through that, especially music, the musical theater business. Cause they don't know in that

business, you need to fit into a role. They go, well, yeah, you're the farmer Giles type and you're the

father type. You'd be like a mother type or you're the daughter type. You need to fit into a role to get

the work. It was a shame because at the time that then I really was up to the young juvenile leads. I have

that look. Um, but to get back off the cruise.

Speaker 3 (09:06):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (09:07):

Another funny story. I'd already got a job in pantomimes. Play the diesel man-made before I left for the

cruise, I was stick thing. When I got back, I got turned up. Oh, you're the Little Mermaid.

New Speaker (09:31):

+

Speaker 3 (09:32):

Now. Is there, I mean, would you consider, because I know your voice, you still got a lovely voice. Your

voice is not gone at all. Um, is there, are there any roles that could lure you back into acting?

Speaker 2 (09:47):

I'm not sure so much about the acting, but I would love to get back into singing I really would that's

what I miss the most is the singing, and I've got these, I know in my heart, I know that I will go back to

singing. I know at the moment I feel like I'm fulfilling a role and that is being mum, why for the moment

and my kids are so small and I just thought I'm going to give what I can to them at the moment. I haven't

got any help at all. Here we are meet Luca and I are bringing out the girls completely alone. Um, so I

keep them everything at the moment. Absolutely. Um, but I do know what to say, grow up a little bit. I

have got this kind of dream and I know it in the back of my mind that I am going to go back into singing.

Speaker 3 (10:34):

You were touring. I mean, that was the story because you were touring with a, with an Italian musician. I

mean, I don't know if you can call it touring. I don't really know what you did, but I know you were

performing with an Italian guitarist. What happened there and how did that come about that? That was

it.

Speaker 2 (10:51):

Now, this was interesting again, fate, at the flat where I used to live. Um, I'll see, before marriage and

everything, windows open, I used to have to be sing my heart off, you know, while sweeping the floor or

whatever I've just digging and just enjoying them really. And the lady upstairs, um, her partner at the

time was the guitarist. And he like as an acoustic guitarist and a teacher guitar teacher as well, who puts

on the Selanto guitar festival here. So it's like a local festival, um, for acoustic guitars. And he then

invites generally, you know, people to come and sing while he plays or, you know, organize his concerts.

And then it was, she, she knocked to myself because you're a really good singer and it kind of, you know,

started from there. And I said, okay, yeah, I'll give you a CD of my singing.

Speaker 2 (11:44):

She wanted to share, obviously her partner who was the guitarist. And he really said, wow, um, how

would you feel if you want to come perform in a concert with me? And I said, Oh yeah, that'd be great.

So I started kind of, you know, we started to do some kind of band practice with other musicians as well.

And then I managed to do some kind of shows, which were lovely, kind of outdoor in the summer at the

amphitheatre here, we would set up gorgeous concerts. So I got back into it for a while then, you know,

even as a hobby, really,

Speaker 3 (12:16):

How has that line gone? Do you still in contact with this, this guitarist

Speaker 2 (12:21):

I've lost context slightly in again and it's from when I got pregnant and you know, when it's like, when

you have the children, it just all fizzled away.

Speaker 2 (12:35):

So I think as soon as you have to, particularly my situation, I've got no one to say what, I'm going off to

do a concert. Here you go. And I'm so really, I know that that's happened. Everything's kind of fizzled

away, which I think is life. Sometimes some people can manage to juggle it, but I think they are unhappy

as well because I know a lot of musical West end performances become mums and wives and they cry

every night because they can't talk my kids into bed. You know, even though they're enjoying being

performers on a show, you're not being a mum and you know, you're not there. So then when that little,

particularly as well, watching, the musicals of The Wizard of Oz. And, and then I got involved in a, um,

strangely enough, a church choir. I'm not religious. Oh no, there was an act for actually the local

Guardian.

Speaker 2 (13:30):

Yeah. And that's where it all started. And amateur theater company. And they were looking for Dorothy

and the wizard of Oz and they were putting on the wizard of Oz and they were actually part of the St

Albums church, um, choir team as well. And they were putting on a show. So I saw that in the

newspaper. I was probably 14, 15. Oh, I'd love to do that. Love to do that. Got their sang. And I'm, this is

where it all began really. I mean, I would think at the time, and obviously I'll write for the role to do

Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz.

Speaker 2 (14:05):

I'm not sure. I'm not sure how much your show, but they gave me obviously the role of Dorothy then

cause all the girls there, I made friends and then they were part of the choir and I joined the choir and I

would see the church every Sunday. I mean, even that was strange.For my mum and dad, when I say

right, get my bag Sunday morning, taking myself off to the church to go and sing. I'm like when I'm like,

Oh, because I'm not particularly religious. All right then bye, didn't quite get it. But off I would go on my

own, take myself off to the church at 9:00 AM every morning. So that was a, quite a bit of a shock than

you imagined in our family.

Speaker 3 (14:43):

Well that yeah, in our family, absolutely. That would be a shock. So you, you were doing your own thing

there straight away, you know, but wasn't, wasn't it, um, see I've got these family stories and some of

them are true. Some of them are kind of, sort of lost some of their color through time and changed. And

some of them are kind of rumors at the time, but wasn't it that you used to sing in the shower and your,

your sister and your mom, suddenly realized that you could sing.

Speaker 2 (15:13):

Yeah. I think he used to shut myself in my room as well for hours. And I think that's when they went, Oh,

that's nice singing. She can sing and I used to love Mariah Carey and that's where Hero came from. For

my, I would seing with the little cassettes at the time, you know, Mariah Carey and shut myself in my

room and the whole, I would sing the whole album word from word, you know, perfectly. And just sing

all the time, and probably in the shower as well.

Speaker 3 (15:44):

You mentioned, you said something about, um, you were somehow connected with a group in, in Italy

and the, the lady was sort of, sort of more interested in you singing Italian songs. Have you got, and I've

heard you sing Italian songs. Sounds really good, but have you got a preference still? I mean your, your,

your mother tongue is still English. Have you a preference for singing in English still?

Speaker 2 (16:09):

Yeah, I do. Because, um, I think you just feel it more when you're singing in your own language, it does

feel odd. Cause I struggle with the pronunciation in Italian. I feel when I'm singing because you have to

get it on the note and it doesn't feel Nat doesn't come naturally. You have to work harder. Even though

singing in Italian is also so beautiful because of the beautiful language it is for singing like yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:37):

So it is almost made for singing Italian is a beauty

Speaker 2 (16:40):

The opera singers are Italian, Pavarotti and Andrea Bocelli. You just think it is lovely. Also singing in

Italian but still. I really feel that I can sing much better in my own language. I just feel it more. I think you

just feel more natural.

Speaker 3 (16:55):

I don't know whether, I've told you this, this might be new, but you know that my partners my, my

collaborator's Italian. I sent her a voice file. The audio of you singing in Italian. And she said, well, it was

strange because I can't remember the song that you sang. Do you, do you remember which audio you

sent me?

Speaker 2 (17:16):

I think it was, uh, actually 'the Prayer' Celine Dion and Andrea Bocelli .

Speaker 3 (17:22):

Yes it was. And she said to me that in the first part of the song, you had a beautiful English. I remember

you're, you're singing in Italian, a beautiful English accent. She could hear the accent. And in the second

part of the audio, she said it was perfect Italian. Oh wow. So it went from, at the beginning with a, with a

. She could tell that you were English. Yeah. By the second half, there was no indication that you were

English. Wow. that's interesting I think, I think sometimes it's got a lot to do, which I struggled a bit with

the T in English. It's very clean and sharp. Yeah. So I think when I, when I sing that comes out and when I

think it Italian, that English take. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:21):

She said that, um, you sang beautifully in the song in Italian. Did you say it was prayer? The prayer?

Yeah. Can you give us a blast, let's go back to the Mariah and then hero comes a long with the strength

to carry on and when you cast yourself aside, I can know what we see you ride and then a hero comes

with the strength to carry on, so many memories. Um, I need to think [inaudible] um, [inaudible],

[inaudible] very, very good in Italian. Oh yeah. My mom, your mom would be crying. Oh, I'll leave. You

I'll leave you there. We've been speaking for a long time now. So definitely I would like to do it the other

way around now and ask you about lots of things about your life.

Speaker 2 (20:37):

You've all been waiting for [inaudible]

Speaker 3 (20:58):

But for example, there was another expression I liked a lot during the interview was the 'to feel the odd

one out. 'Could you give me some examples? I followed these. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it

something that you'd heard before? Is it yeah. I heard with a game find the odd one now, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Um, I suppose with the 'odd one out' is another feeling that most of us have felt. And if you

imagine going into it, I mean, normally we just hang out with people. We want to hang out with who we

spend time with people. We want to spend time with friends, family, et cetera. But every so often you're

kind of put into a situation where you're going to be with people that you don't really know that you

don't necessarily, they're not necessarily friends or family and you don't know whether they're going to

be your type of people.

Speaker 3 (22:03):

And you know, I think we've all probably been in a situation where we suddenly find ourselves in a

group of people. And you sort of think to yourself, I don't relate to these people at all for whatever

reason. And they might not relate to you. So, you know, in those situations, um, you feel the odd one

out, especially if those people were talking about things that you've got either no interest in or you think

absolutely the opposite. So, um, you know, I mean, I, if I, you know, everyone feels it. I feel it sometimes

if I find myself in a group of people that are too material where they're talking about what cars they're

driving and you know, I just feel, I don't feel like a fit. Um, so I feel the odd one out in those kinds of

situations. So I think in everyone's lives from time to time, you would feel the odd one out in a crowd or

in a group. Um, basically because they're not, may not be the people that you choose to spend time

with. Does that, does that explain that or yeah. Perfectly. Okay. Can you think of a time when you feel,

what sort of situation do you feel the odd one out? Um, let me think. Every, for example, when I went

one day in a party, um, I went to with my husband in a party, uh, his working place and I was surrounded

by this, nerds. And really in that moment I was thinking why I'm here.

Speaker 3 (23:54):

But the, of course it was for, I mean, I spend there not so much time because you know, these kinds of

people are, uh, precise interests. I make games really. I don't have I told, but of course I was there with

my husband. And then after a while, fortunately, I husband told me, okay, the food, the, the plates are

empty, the food has gone, the food, the food has been eaten. So now we can go home. I was really

relieved. I was relieved because that's the situation. That's one of those situations you just have to get

through. You were there for Ari, you were there to support Ari. Yeah. You just have to get through it. We

all have to have these things from time to time and we all feel it. And that's exactly the feeling of feeling

the odd one out where you're different from the others.

Speaker 3 (25:01):

Now I was curious to go there because it's really another world. But in a certain point I was, um, yeah, I,

I was feeling to be an odd one out, but of course I was there to support him. So it's okay. Because

sometimes, you know, you need the something to do something different. Absolutely. So I was happy,

even I felt to be an odd one out, that's right. I mean, I think, um, it's not always, it's not, it's not always a

disastrous feeling to feel the odd one out truth can be interesting. It can be interesting because I

suppose people talk about coming out of their comfort zone. So if you just hang out with people that

you love hanging out with only you don't get to meet other types. So, you know, yes, you might feel the

odd one out, but it's not disastrous. It's actually, it's a way to, um, I want to say, to have a new

experience to open your mind. Why not? I mean, you're right. When you said it was, you'd heard the

expression about games, which one is the odd one out. Um, and yeah, it could be the way you've got

sort of, let's say you've got five images and you know, four of the images would be people playing

sports. And then one of the images would be someone not playing any sport, which wants to be out one

out different from the rest.

Speaker 1 (26:43):

[inaudible]

Speaker 4 (26:55):

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