Dr Abul Rizvi is former Deputy Secretary of the departments of Immigration and Communtcation. He has a PhD in Immigration Policy from Melbourne and came to Australia as part of a migrant academic family. More than anyone, he sees the link between migration and international education from lived experience, professional expertise and scholarship. He argues, in an episode recorded with Cate Gilpin and I, for Australia to set targets for migration based on long term planning in an era of forthcoming population decline of young people from falling birth rates. And to build migration and higher education policies around that bigger need. He argues the current situation of leaving migrants and students in visa 'no-mans-land' is unjust.