Darren is joined by returning guest Richard Maude to unpack what Australian foreign policy looks like in late 2025. The conversation centres on Foreign Minister Penny Wong’s recent AIIA speech, which Darren argues—mostly with Richard’s agreement—marks a clear evolution in Australia’s foreign policy doctrine. The traditional three pillars — alliance, region, and rules — have been replaced by a new framework, the "Four Rs": Region, Relationships, Rules, and Resilience. The discussion explores what this shift reveals about how Canberra sees the world today, and what it tells us about Australia’s strategic priorities as the international environment becomes more volatile.

Together, they assess how well the government is executing each of the “Four Rs” in practice — from strengthening ties across Southeast Asia and the Pacific, to managing the alliance with an unpredictable Washington, stabilising relations with Beijing, and linking foreign policy more overtly with domestic resilience. They ask whether Australia is being suitably ambitious in shaping the regional security environment, or whether it risks becoming over-focused on Southeast Asia at the expense of alliance leadership and broader coordination with partners like Japan, Korea and Europe.

Darren and Richard also grapple with Australia–China relations. Is Canberra being too cautious in public language — or sensibly risk-averse? Darren frames the question as whether the greater risk currently lies in under-reacting to the threat posed by China, or in over-reacting. And how should Australia manage economic dependence on China given the limits of diversification and the “iron laws” of trade? 

The fourth R is resilience, and they discuss whether tying domestic policy to foreign policy is a strength or a political trap. They consider how resilience language enables governments to justify hard economic choices, while also warning against overselling national security policy as economic strategy.

Finally, Darren and Richard look ahead to 2026. Richard nominates three global questions to watch closely: the trajectory of US–China relations, the fate of Ukraine, and whether anything remains of the liberal international project. Darren adds his own focal points: Australia’s critical minerals strategy, Europe’s struggle with Chinese economic leverage, and the political durability of Trump’s dominance ahead of the US midterms.

A wide-ranging episode on doctrine, diplomacy and domestic politics — and what it all means for Australia navigating a world that feels, as Richard once put it, "completely stuffed".

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Hannah Nelson and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Richard Maude (bio): https://asiasociety.org/policy-institute/richard-maude

Penny Wong, “AIIA Gala Dinner Keynote Address”, 17 November 2025: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/penny-wong/speech/aiia-gala-dinner-keynote-address

Darren Lim and Hannah Nelson, “From Three Strands to Four Rs: The Evolution of Australian Foreign Policy”, Australian Outlook, 21 November 2025: https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/from-three-strands-to-four-rs-the-evolution-of-australian-foreign-policy/

Penny Wong, “Speech to the ANU National Security College “Securing our Future”, 9 April 2024: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/penny-wong/speech/speech-anu-national-security-college-securing-our-future

Allan Gyngell, Fear of Abandonment: Australia in the World since 1942: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/fear-abandonment

Heather Smith, “Australia and Economic Cold War – Drifting into the New Paradigm”, AIIA 2025 National Conference Address, 17 November 2025: https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/australia-and-economic-cold-war-drifting-into-the-new-paradigm/

Penny Wong, TV interview, ABC Insiders (with David Speers), 16 November 2025: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/penny-wong/transcript/tv-interview-abc-insiders-0

Eli Hayes and Darren Lim, “Not every critical mineral is equal – and Australia’s policy should reflect this”, Lowy Interpreter, 10 November 2025: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/not-every-critical-mineral-equal-australia-s-policy-should-reflect

Darren Lim and Nathan Attrill, “Australian debate of the China question: The COVID-19 case”, Australian Journal of International Affairs (2021): https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10357718.2021.1940094 (gated) or https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3856586 (ungated)

Jedediah Britton-Purdy and David Pozen, “What are we living through?”, Boston Review, 15 October 2025: https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/what-are-we-living-through/

Lachlan Strahan, The Curious Diplomat: A memoir from the frontlines of diplomacy (Monash University Publishing, 2025): https://publishing.monash.edu/product/the-curious-diplomat/

Nick Potkalitsky, “Where Should Student AI Literacy Live?”, Educating AI (Substack), 25 September 2025: https://nickpotkalitsky.substack.com/p/where-should-student-ai-literacy

Ethan Mollick, “The Best Available Human Standard”, One Useful Thing (Substack), 22 October 2023: https://www.oneusefulthing.org/p/the-best-available-human-standard

Ethan Mollick, “15 Times to use AI, and 5 Not to”, One Useful Thing (Substack), 9 December 2024: https://www.oneusefulthing.org/p/15-times-to-use-ai-and-5-not-to