On this episode of the AVAIL Podcast, we sit down with Karl Vaters, a veteran pastor and author of Desizing the Church, to tackle one of the ministry’s most pressing topics: the cultural obsession with church size. Karl shares his journey of shifting from a numbers-driven focus to understanding the profound value of building healthy church communities. Together, they unpack myths surrounding church growth, discuss the challenges of pastoral burnout, and explore the essential role of small churches in the global kingdom. Whether you lead a large congregation or a small church, this conversation will challenge your perspective and inspire you to redefine success in ministry.