Dave Rubin of The Rubin Report talks to James Lindsay about how an issue with a diversity hire first alerted him to the growing problems of wokeness, his recent red pill moment, and why he is worried about the useful idiots of woke culture. First James explains what made him, Peter Boghossian and Helen Pluckrose decide to create the grievance studies hoax. James explains what it's been like for a liberal to work with so many conservatives at events like CPAC. James also clarifies what both liberals and conservatives get wrong about the critical race theory debate. James describes what led him to be more concerned about what he calls the crypto woke who function as useful idiots for woke culture by not taking their demands at face value.

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