When Jesus says I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full, he doesn’t say that means it will be without suffering. Fullness of life speaks of joy, hope and resurrection, but life in all its fullness is not life without pain or disappointment: Jesus’s own life wasn’t.

Listen to John Swinton and Paula Gooder's profound and wide-ranging conversation reflecting on John's latest book 'Finding Jesus in the Storm', drawing on many years of experience of working with people with mental health challenges. It ranges from the importance of lamentation, how we can find joy in times of suffering, what it means to have Christ-like friendships, to the value of a rich spiritual life, and also reflects on how we can make churches places of welcome and safety for people with mental health challenges, how important good listening is and how we can all learn from people who are experiencing challenges in mental wellbeing.

John Swinton is Professor of Practical Theology and Pastoral Care at the University of Aberdeen and Founding Director of Aberdeen’s Centre for Spirituality, Health and Disability. His latest book is Finding Jesus in the Storm (SCM Press 2020).

Paula Gooder is Chancellor of St Paul’s Cathedral and a leading Biblical scholar. Her latest book is 'The Parables', in her Biblical Explorations series.