Following the Fire

Following the Fire

By Following The FireReligion & SpiritualityChristianity
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Following the Fire episodes

  • 9: Huge Black Eye: Modern idolatry and the image of God

    Today Nathan’s return to a short story about Jesus healing 10 lepers leads us into the 10 commandments, idolatry, can we safely say “OMG”, then to masks, vaccines, the mark of the beast. We talk about being the image of God in this messed up spiritual desert, and we wish for brave leadership through it.

    Intro - 1:27

    • The internet tricked Nathan in to learning magic
    • Alpha & Omega Playing Cards
    • Smoking is bad, playing cards is fine, or vice-versa (geography dependent)
    • Musical: “The Music Man”

      • Boxed-In Hangups - 8:07

      • The rich young ruler - Mark 10:17-27
      • Zaccheus - Luke 19:1-10
      • The 10 Lepers - Luke 17:11-19
      • Book: “Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes” by E. Randolph Richards & Brandon J. O’Brien
      • Structured brainstorming - The KJ method
      • “…the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” - Matthew 19:14

        • Oh Emm Gee - 28:36

        • Numbering The 10 Commandments
        • Jesus fish
        • Idolatry
        • Mark of the beast

          • Image of God - 48:46

          • Bible Project Podcast: Royal Priests Series
          • Bible Project Video: Image of God
          • Article: White Evangelical Resistance Is Obstacle in Vaccination Effort
          • Pew Research: Intent to get vaccinated

            • Who's leading? - 1:09:26

            • Article: Why Is It So Hard to Change People’s Minds?

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              1 hr 32 min
            • 8: Deconstructing Deconstruction: What it is and why it's happening

              In this episode Nathan learns what the word ‘heuristic’ means, and we talk a lot about ‘deconstruction’ — what it means, what it doesn’t mean, and what the process might be like for people like us who are going through it.

              Intro - 0:00

              • Sunburns are caused by the sun
              • Steve is very very white

                • It’s Everywhere - 3:43

                • Toyota Hilux Truck
                • Baader-Meinhoff Phenomenon
                • Confirmation Bias
                • Availability Heuristic
                • “Whoever has ears to hear…” Matthew 11:15
                • Article: “Jesus Cleansing the Temple” by Beth Moore
                • Article: Beth Moore leaves the SBC

                  • What is it? - 15:16

                  • Deconstruction according to Jaques Derrida
                  • The Deconstruction Network
                  • Pixar Movie: “Inside Out”

                    • Black sheep going upstream - 33:04

                    • Agreeableness
                    • Group Think
                    • Podcast: Adam Grant on “Dare to Lead” podcast by Brené Brown
                    • Book: “Think Again” by Adam Grant

                      • Life in a bubble - 49:20

                      • Dinosaur National Monument
                      • Article: The age of nones may favor churches that welcome doubters
                      • Thomas Pikkety
                      • Amish

                        • Why do we deconstruct? 1:07:43

                        • Article: U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time
                        • The Flying Nun
                        • Article: White Evangelicals stick by Trump
                        • Cognitive Dissonance

                          • Compounding variables - 1:29:07

                          • Trump, Black Lives Matter, COVID
                          • The Good Samaritan - Luke 10:25-37
                          • You’re not alone
                          • With God Daily

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                            1 hr 54 min
                          • 7: Bowling Without Bumpers: Rethinking the Restoration movement

                            Is restoration of the first century church REALLY what we should be focusing on? Is there a danger in trying to do the right thing all the time? Is faith supposed to be scary? Should we all give dancing naked a try? These and other questions, if not answered, will at least be asked on this week's episode.

                            Intro - 0:00

                            • Steve’s trying to tell himself to “leave it” as regards Facebook arguments
                            • Nathan has weird hobbies (e.g.,reading Amazon 1-star reviews)

                              • Back to the beginning? - 6:22

                              • Statute of limitations for spoilers
                              • The Princess Bride
                              • Is “going back to the beginning” inherently a good thing for the church to do?
                              • Restoration Movement
                              • On a timeline, when did Christians “get it the most right”?
                              • Is the first-century Christian the one we want to emulate?
                              • Jackie Robinson
                              • Usain Bolt
                              • Jesse Owens
                              • “Who got it right?” is the wrong question to ask
                              • We look in the Bible for a blueprint that isn’t there

                                • Who do we emulate? - 26:32

                                • We should emulate Christ, period
                                • But he doesn’t give us how to “church” the “right way”
                                • Jesus being tempted by Satan - [Matthew 4:1-11](Matthew 4:1-11)
                                • Proof Texting

                                  • Stuck on getting it right - 42:50

                                  • Restoration Movement
                                  • Barton W. Stone
                                  • Thomas Campbell
                                  • Alexander Campbell
                                  • Millenial Harbinger magazine
                                  • Postmillennialism
                                  • “Follow me as I follow Christ” - 1 Corinthians 11:1
                                  • Change is scary
                                  • Brené Brown podcast “Daring to Lead”
                                  • Grace vs. Righteousness
                                  • Making God “happy” is the wrong approach
                                  • Sinning more to manufacture grace - Romans 6:1-2

                                    • Dancing naked - 1:00:48

                                    • David danced before the Lord - 1 Samuel 6:12-22
                                    • “Anyone Can Fall for a Conspiracy Theory — Even You”
                                    • We need more awareness of how we approach new ideas
                                    • What satiates fear is control
                                    • Faith is letting go of control
                                    • Seek Ye First - Matthew 6:33
                                    • Fruit of the Spirit - Galatians 5:22-23
                                    • My yoke is easy… - Matthew 11:28-30
                                    • Book: "The Freedom of the Hills”

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                                      1 hr 23 min
                                    • 6: It’s not about farming: Is the Bible everything we think it is?

                                      We’re going to talk about the B.I.B.L.E. and discuss whether it’s the book for us. Where’d it come from? Is it truth? What is truth? Then we get deeper and deeper. Come follow along as we try to figure this out.

                                      What’s the deal with the Bible? - 2:06

                                      • Deconstructing is now a “thing”
                                      • Reconstruction is also important

                                        • The 3 ‘I’s of scripture - 7:32

                                        • Inspired, Infallible, Inerrant
                                        • Quotation confusion in the New Testament
                                          • Hebrews 8: 7-9
                                            • Jeremiah 31:32
                                            • Luke 24:45-47
                                            • Jude 14-15
                                              • 1 Enoch 1:9
                                              • Things added later
                                                • “Cast the first stone” story - John 8:-11
                                                  • Biblical Chiasmus
                                                  • Mark 16:9-20

                                                    • The Sacredness of Scripture - 28:01

                                                    • Book: “Red Letter Revolution” by Shaine Claiborne & Tony Campolo
                                                    • The sections of the Tanakh
                                                    • “All scripture is useful…” 2 Tim 3:16-17
                                                    • Competitive Agency vs. Dual Agency
                                                      • “Pray to God for Protection. Then Praise Him for Your Mask.” By Tish Harrison Warren
                                                      • “Liturgy of the Ordinary” By Tish Harrison Warren

                                                        • A Toxic Relationship With the Bible - 48:03

                                                        • Putting too much of our faith on the 3 ‘I’s can cause it all to crash down
                                                        • The through-line of the Bible is the important thing
                                                        • Coming to terms with imperfection is important

                                                          • Differently Important - 1:05:54

                                                          • Looking for the Truths instead of the Rules
                                                          • From milk to meat - 1 Corinthians 3:1-3
                                                          • We want to stay with “incorrect vs. correct” but the Bible is pulling us in a different direction
                                                          • Jesus taught in this direction - Matthew 5:17-48
                                                          • It’s not about the rule, it’s about your heart and a relationship with God
                                                          • Easter Letter of Athanasius
                                                          • History of the New Testament Canon
                                                          • Q Source
                                                          • What’s the minimum viable Bible?
                                                          • Book: “Love Does” by Bob Goff
                                                          • “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus”

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                                                            1 hr 25 min
                                                          • 5: The G.O.D. Club: The problem of Christian moral superiority

                                                            Nathan shares his thoughts on how misunderstanding "Good Guys vs. Bad Guys" can lead to an inverted gospel of moral superiority, and how it contributes to the problem of "Us Against Them." And, along the way, Nathan realizes that he's not the Jedi he thought, but he was the Sith the whole time.

                                                            Book Club! - 0:00

                                                            • “With” by Skye Jethani

                                                              • Intro - 2:52

                                                              Good guys vs. Bad guys - 4:30

                                                              • The Empire Strikes Back
                                                              • Darkwing Duck
                                                              • Rescuers Down Under
                                                              • How to know if someone’s a bad guy
                                                                • Smokes cigarettes
                                                                • They’re ugly
                                                                • Foreign accent (Russian or German, but the worst is British)
                                                                • OT “heroes” are very flawed people
                                                                  • We’re not necessarily supposed to emulate the heroes at all times
                                                                  • Noah had a dark ending (Genesis 9)
                                                                  • Abraham lying about his wife being his wife (Genesis 20)
                                                                  • David & Bathsheba (2 Samuel 11)
                                                                  • Jacob & Esau (Genesis 25)
                                                                  • Judah & Tamar (Genesis 38)
                                                                  • We read ourselves into the best parts of the story
                                                                    • Going to church = I’m a good guy
                                                                    • The G.O.D. Club (sorry Jodie)
                                                                    • We associate being a Christian with moral superiority
                                                                    • The natural response to meeting God is not “I’m so great”

                                                                      • The Gospel of Moral Superiority - 4:30

                                                                      • The need to feel “good enough” to become a Christian
                                                                      • Focusing so much on right vs. wrong that we miss the forest
                                                                      • Fear of morality outside Christianity
                                                                        • We are skeptical of things not written by people we always agree with
                                                                        • We should also be skeptical of those we think we do agree with
                                                                        • Leads us to hide any darkness we find inside ourselves
                                                                        • We then hide the shortcomings of our leaders
                                                                        • Ravi Zacharias scandal

                                                                          • Us Against Them -

                                                                          • We should be the salt of the earth not the starch of the vest (Matthew 5:13)
                                                                            • Today means: authentic, guard down, not worried about perceptions
                                                                            • Book: “Unchristian” by Gabe Lyons and David Kinnaman
                                                                            • Rethinking how we measure ourselves
                                                                            • Jesus came to the “in group” and reached out to the “outsider”
                                                                            • Thought experiment: Tell yourself the “Good Samaritan” story and substitute the person you can’t stand as the Samaritan
                                                                            • God leaves no room for someone we’re NOT supposed to love
                                                                            • “Jesus the Pharisee” - Joseph Shulam
                                                                            • There is no outsider! There is no “us vs them”
                                                                            • Love actively

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                                                                              1 hr 17 min
                                                                            • 4: Flossing Deconstructed: More things we accidentally learned in church

                                                                              On this episode we continue our conversation of the list of some of the small things on Steve’s mind like eternity, the Old Testament and the New Testament and what things we’re supposed to get out of them, and what does it mean to talk to God.

                                                                              We’re just barely getting in to these topics, but we plan on diving deeper on all of them in the future, and we really want to know your thoughts, comments, questions, and concerns. So PLEASE send us an email at [email protected] - we’d love to hear from you, maybe answer your questions or work your comments into a future episode.

                                                                              Book Club announcement! 0:00

                                                                              • First book: “With” by Skye Jethani
                                                                              • Discussion on the April 7 show.
                                                                              • Send us your comments, questions, and book ideas!

                                                                                • Intro: 2:00

                                                                                • Working from home pros and cons
                                                                                • Nathan’s been doing home improvement work to prep for his wife moving in
                                                                                • The paint should make things interesting

                                                                                  • Framing the topics: 5:27

                                                                                  • The goal, just like the "Restoration Movement", is really to strip back the traditions and get to the core of Christianity
                                                                                  • Don’t let the truth be a scary thing
                                                                                  • What we’re really doing is deconstructing - just need to be sure we rebuild

                                                                                    • The relationship between Christianity and Judaism - 16:18

                                                                                    • What’s the Old Testament good for?
                                                                                    • Joseph Shulam - Netivya Ministries, Jerusalem

                                                                                      • The purpose of Christianity - 27:17

                                                                                      • It’s not just to get myself to heaven
                                                                                      • It's about the Kingdom starting now
                                                                                      • Book: "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis
                                                                                      • Book: “The Divine Conspiracy” by Dallas Willard

                                                                                        • All about prayer - 43:36

                                                                                        • Class: Why do we pray that way?
                                                                                        • How prayer works & what’s it for?
                                                                                        • Traditions around prayer
                                                                                        • Long-distance romantic relationship as a metaphor for prayer
                                                                                        • Book: "Book of Common Prayer" the (not very pocket-sized) Pocket size edition
                                                                                        • Prayer is for relationship

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                                                                                          1 hr 3 min
                                                                                        • 3: Spiritual Pillows: Rethinking things we accidentally learned in church

                                                                                          Today we start going down Steve's list of things he’s been thinking about and rethinking, and we don’t get too far. Also, we solve the issue of women’s roles in the church. Almost.

                                                                                          Things we were taught or accidentally learned that we are unlearning or rethinking that were touched on in this episode:

                                                                                          Intro - 0:00

                                                                                          • We're cold. It's cold.
                                                                                          • Adults like fluffy snow, kids like sticky snow

                                                                                            • Things Steve is rethinking, pt1 - 3:54

                                                                                            • Exclusive mindset of the churches of Christ
                                                                                            • Musical instruments in worship

                                                                                              • Worship = Sundays only - 16:40

                                                                                              • 5 acts of worship
                                                                                              • Requirement to have an "invitation"
                                                                                              • Worship is what we should be doing with our entire lives
                                                                                                • Books: "The Space Trilogy" by C.S. Lewis

                                                                                                  • Women's roles in the church - 24:26

                                                                                                  • There are many unwritten rules about this that are traditional
                                                                                                  • We wouldn't allow this if we were talking about race
                                                                                                  • This practice is damaging to the men, women, and kids - and we're losing them (article)
                                                                                                  • Some books:
                                                                                                    • "God's Woman Revisited" by Gary T. Burke
                                                                                                    • "What Most Women Want, What Few Women Find" by F. LaGard Smith
                                                                                                    • "The Mishnah"

                                                                                                      • Problem of making worship the main event - 42:49

                                                                                                      • We're missing out on so much of what women have to say, and teach, and pray

                                                                                                        • The gift of diversity in the church - 50:24

                                                                                                        • It's important to seek out a little discomfort - it helps us grow

                                                                                                          • EDITS:

                                                                                                          • The "5 elements of worship" are actually: singing, giving (money), preaching, praying, and taking the Lord's Supper.
                                                                                                          • It's the "Bereans" who searched the scriptures to see if Paul & Silas were correct, not the "Berameans" (which isn't a thing)
                                                                                                          • The "woman at the well" (John ch 4) and the woman Jesus jokingly referred to as a "dog" (Matthew ch 15) were not the same person

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                                                                                                            1 hr 7 min
                                                                                                          • 2: Gnats & Camels: Pros and cons of growing up in the Church of Christ

                                                                                                            Today we’ll be talking a bit about how growing up in the Churches of Christ impacted our faith. And to all of our friends and family in the Churches of Christ, hopefully this episode will be less awkward to listen to than it was for us to record it.

                                                                                                            Show Notes:

                                                                                                            Intro - 0:00

                                                                                                            • Bike rides were taken
                                                                                                            • Nathan is "way behind on a bunch of stuff"

                                                                                                              • Very generalized and incomplete intro to the "Church of Christ" - 4:20

                                                                                                              • Talking about the "Church of Christ" is hard because they're independent
                                                                                                              • It is part of the "Restoration Movement"
                                                                                                                • Similar to, but not exactly the same as the "Reformation Movement"
                                                                                                                • The goal: Get back to Jesus and measure ourselves against that
                                                                                                                • Nathan lists of some standard Church of Christ tentpoles

                                                                                                                  • Steve's history with the Church of Christ - 18:20

                                                                                                                  • Very long family history with the "churches of Christ"
                                                                                                                  • Exclusivist terminology is common (i.e., "we are THE church") but not universal
                                                                                                                  • Only going to a C of C, you miss a lot of perspective
                                                                                                                  • Steve's realization: Churches of Christ are not the only Christians who are earnestly trying to follow God
                                                                                                                    • Vintage City Church in Fort Collins

                                                                                                                      • Things Nathan felt were important or that he accidentally learned - 32:30

                                                                                                                      • He was accidentally taught a lot of things (i.e., instrumental music in worship)
                                                                                                                      • Gut reactions can be powerful! They bypass the brain
                                                                                                                        • Happens often when it's "not the way you grew up"

                                                                                                                          • Defining ourselves - 41:00

                                                                                                                          • "If we define ourselves as 'not like other churches' we'll define ourselves out of existence." - Curt Niccum
                                                                                                                            • "Whoever is not against us is for us" - Mark 9:38-41
                                                                                                                            • " For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged" - Matthew 7:2
                                                                                                                            • Wanting to "do church right" can distract from following God
                                                                                                                              • "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice" - Hosea 6:6
                                                                                                                              • "You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." - Matthew 23:24
                                                                                                                              • How we got here
                                                                                                                                • Hermeneutics
                                                                                                                                • Command, Example, Necessary Inference
                                                                                                                                • "Who's my neighbor?" - Luke 10:36-37
                                                                                                                                • We've focused too much on Sunday morning

                                                                                                                                  • The unity that Jesus wanted? - 57:47

                                                                                                                                  • Churches of Christ don't have the monopoly on "right"
                                                                                                                                  • Emphasis needs to shift from differences to commonalities
                                                                                                                                  • Jesus praying in the garden for unity - John 17:20-23
                                                                                                                                  • We can easily build our identity on things that are NOT God
                                                                                                                                  • We've all gotten it wrong, and we still do
                                                                                                                                  • All of this requires a lot of humility & grace
                                                                                                                                  • Am I pleasing God and following him, or just trying to "do the right thing"
                                                                                                                                  • The Lord's Prayer is a great alignment tool - Matthew 6:9-13
                                                                                                                                  • When we go back to church, we hope we don't fall back in to old, unhelpful, patterns
                                                                                                                                  • Be defined by who you're going toward, not who we're going against

                                                                                                                                    • Wrap up - 1:12:37

                                                                                                                                    • The Superbowl is on - Nathan doesn't "even want to talk about it"

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                                                                                                                                      Links:

                                                                                                                                      • Way behind on a bunch of stuff
                                                                                                                                      • Restoration Movement
                                                                                                                                      • Reformation Movement
                                                                                                                                      • Vintage City Church
                                                                                                                                      • Mark 9:38-41 — Whoever is not against us is for us
                                                                                                                                      • Matthew 7:2 — For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged
                                                                                                                                      • Hosea 6:6 — For I desire mercy, not sacrifice
                                                                                                                                      • Matthew 23:24 — You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel
                                                                                                                                      • Command, Example, Necessary Inference
                                                                                                                                      • Luke 10:36-37 — Who's my neighbor?
                                                                                                                                      • John 17:20-23 — Jesus praying in the garden for unity
                                                                                                                                      • Matthew 6:9-13 — The Lord's Prayer is a great alignment tool
                                                                                                                                      1 hr 16 min
                                                                                                                                    • 1: Spongy Bread: Who we are and why we’re doing this

                                                                                                                                      Today we’ll be introducing ourselves to you, talking a bit about our spiritual journeys, and why we’re doing this podcast thing in the first place.

                                                                                                                                      • Intro - 0:00
                                                                                                                                        • Meetings meetings workshops meetings powerpoint
                                                                                                                                        • Introductions - 2:55
                                                                                                                                          • Steve
                                                                                                                                            • Oklahoma Christian University
                                                                                                                                            • Dresden, Germany
                                                                                                                                            • Nathan
                                                                                                                                              • Bible Belt
                                                                                                                                              • Paris, France
                                                                                                                                              • Nathan notes that he and Steve are extremely similar in several weird ways
                                                                                                                                              • Why a podcast & our spiritual journeys - 17:35
                                                                                                                                                • The need to take a new look & changing perspective
                                                                                                                                                • Working on a real relationship with God
                                                                                                                                                • Moving from “believer” to “follower” - 34:39
                                                                                                                                                  • Discovering new ways to approach God
                                                                                                                                                  • Mandatory vacation for bankers recommended by FDIC
                                                                                                                                                  • Viewing COVID lockdown as a sabbath
                                                                                                                                                  • What it means to "follow the fire" - 46:40
                                                                                                                                                    • The wilderness wandering was when God taught Israel to have a relationship with Him

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                                                                                                                                                      Support Following the Fire

                                                                                                                                                      52 min

                                                                                                                                                    About Following the Fire

                                                                                                                                                    From the publisher's feed

                                                                                                                                                    Like many others, we (Steve & Nathan) are on a spiritual journey of deconstruction and reconstruction to find what God truly wants of us. Just like Israel followed the pillar of fire in the desert, we want to follow God wherever we are led. And just like Israel, we get lost a lot, we get it wrong a lot, but we're trying our best to follow and have a relationship with the Father. Join us on the journey!