Following the Fire

Following the Fire

By Following The FireReligion & SpiritualityChristianity
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Following the Fire episodes

  • 19: Affirming: LGBTQ+ acceptance & the church - a conversation with Sally Gary

    Today we’re going to be discussing the book Affirming: A Memoir of Faith, Sexuality, and Staying in the Church by Sally Gary. This is Sally’s second memoir, and it’s about her journey from her youth growing up in the church of Christ, coming to terms with her sexuality as a gay woman, and moving from a stance of not approving of same sex marriage herself to marrying her wife Karen just this past year — all while remaining devoted to God. It’s a deeply touching story, and I believe a very important one that all Christians should check out.

    • Book: "Affirming" by Sally Gary
    • CenterPeace
    • Stamford Church of Christ in Stamford Connectictut
    • Audio book: Affirming
    • Book: “Unclobber” by Colby Martin
    • Ephesians 2
    • Highland Church of Christ in Abilene, TX
    • CenterPeace 15th Anniversary Party Video
    • CenterPeace Podcast

      • Please support the work of CenterPeace:

      Donate Online here

      Mail contributions to:

      CenterPeace
      10805 Walnut Hill Lane
      Dallas, TX 75238

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      Special Guest: Sally Gary.

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      1 hr 5 min
    • 18: Science & Faith 01: Handling the Conflict of Science & Faith

      Science & Faith 01: Handling the Conflict of Science & Faith

      The first in a mini-series on science and the Bible, we go deeper in to the idea that God wrote 2 books: the Word and the World. And what does Aristotle and a fixed-earth cosmology have to do with it all?

      Intro & Preamble: 0:32

      • Episode 12 - “Don’t Give Moses Horns”
      • www.followingthefire.com
      • Steve’s Twitter@HeySteveMartin

        • Cool Science Thing: 4:24

        • God of the gaps
        • Immortal Jellyfish

          • Does it move?: 7:09

          • BioLogos.org
          • Young Earth creationism
          • Aristotle
          • The fixed-earth concept (Geocentric Model)
          • Fixed-earth scriptures:
            • 1 Chronicles 16:30
            • Psalm 93:1
            • Psalm 105:5
            • 1 Samuel 2:8
            • Moving-sun scriptures:
              • Psalm 19:4-6
              • Ecclesiastes 1:5
              • Nicolaus Copernicus
              • Copernican Heliocentrism
              • Martin Luther
              • Galileo Galilei
              • Heliocentrism
              • Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems

                • Interpretation Problems: 14:30

                • 2 books written by God: The Word and the World
                • Scientific Method
                • Biblical Scholarship
                • “You knit me together in my mother’s womb.” - Psalm 139:13-14
                • Romans 1:20
                • St. Augustine of Hippo
                • Book: “The Literal Meaning of Genesis” by St. Augustine

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                  26 min
                • 17: It’s Complicated: Taking a new look at the Trinity

                  It’s Complicated: Taking a new look at the Trinity

                  Today we dive in to a deep and mysterious and complicated and confusing topic. We tend to just say this word and accept it and move on, but we're going to take some time to discuss the doctrine of the Trinity. The idea that 3 is 1 and 1 is 3. And we dive in to whether or not that's what we believe, and what does that mean for our lives, and what does it mean for how I treat my neighbor, or what I should do today?

                  Intro: 1:16

                  • Nathan is getting too many good recommendations
                  • Baeder-Meinhoff Effect
                  • Book: “Jesus and John Wayne”by Kristen Kobes Du Mez
                  • Book: “Affirming” by Sally Gary

                    • Trinity in Scripture: 6:57

                    • Book: “On the Road” by Jack Kerouac
                    • Book: “Ulysses” by James Joyce
                    • Show: “Ted Lasso”
                    • Non-Binary
                    • Concept of the Trinity
                    • Restoration Movement
                    • Barton Stone’s view on the Trinity
                    • Unitarianism
                    • Tritheism
                    • Modalism
                    • Partialism
                    • Arianism
                    • Monarchianism
                    • God’s thoughts are higher than our thoughts - Isaiah 55:8-9
                    • Jesus’ baptism - Matthew 3:16-17
                    • The Great Commission - Matthew 28:18-20
                    • 2 Corinthians 13:14
                    • 1 Peter 1:1-2
                    • Mistranslation: Colossians 2:9
                    • Mistranslation: 1 John 5:7-8
                    • Shema Yisrael

                      • An intuitive reading: 27:00

                      • Doc: Holy Spirit in the Old Testament
                      • Men visiting Abraham - Genesis 18

                        • Trinity in history: 45:02

                        • Tertullian
                        • Hippolytus of Rome
                        • First Council of Nicaea
                        • Arius of Alexandria
                        • Alexander of Alexandria
                        • Nicene Creed
                        • First Council of Constantinople
                        • Athanasian Creed
                        • How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
                        • Islamic view of the Trinity

                          • Does it matter?: 1:03:56

                          • The term “gospel”
                          • Christology
                          • Birth of Jesus
                          • Genealogy of Jesus
                          • Our Safe Harbor Church
                          • Video series: Who Told You That? by Patrick Mead
                          • Video: Who Told ME I Didn’t Have To Be a Name Brand Christian?
                          • Only Son Ministries
                          • Impact Matrix
                          • The Greatest Command - Matthew 22:36-40
                          • Jesus’ new command - John 13:34-35
                          • “It is easier to love humanity as a whole than to love one's neighbor.“ - Eric Hoffer
                          • Book: “Love Does” by Bob Goff

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                            1 hr 28 min
                          • 16: Aftershocks: Reactions to breaking up with your church

                            Aftershocks: Reactions to breaking up with your church

                            Today we have a little bit of fun with a denomination personality quiz, then stick around until the end to hear Steve’s breakup letter to our congregation. And in the meantime, we talk about the emotions of this in-between space, community and lack thereof, and Nathan discovers #WeirdChristianTwitter

                            Intro

                            • Nathan has too many books to read
                            • So does Steve

                              • Book Club Announcement

                              • Next Book: “Jesus & John Wayne” by Kristen Kobes Du Mez
                              • Song: “Jesus the Mexican Boy” - Lyrics
                              • Third Culture Kids
                              • Steve Martin is from Texas

                                • Denomination Quiz

                                • Quiz: Which denomination are you?
                                • Scientologists are litigious
                                • Jehovah’s Witness
                                • Seventh-day Adventist
                                • Brian Regan at the Eye Doctor
                                • Episcopal Church
                                • Methodist Church
                                • Evangelical Lutheran Church
                                • Presbyterian Church
                                • Liberal Quakerism
                                • Mennonite Brethren Church
                                • Amish
                                • Church of Christ
                                • Eastern Orthodox Church
                                • “Holy Fire”
                                • Roman Catholic Church
                                • Reformed Church
                                • Mormonism
                                • Corn Flakes
                                • Mormon Tabernacle Choir
                                • Unity Church

                                  • Christian Type Quiz

                                  • Quiz: What kind of Christian are you?
                                  • Brian Mclaren
                                  • Emerging Church Movement
                                  • Rob Bell
                                  • Phyllis Tickle
                                  • Book: “The Divine Hours”
                                  • Video: Bart Simpson’s prank calls
                                  • N.T. Wright
                                  • Timothy Keller
                                  • Eugene Peterson
                                  • Sojourners
                                  • Relevant Magazine
                                  • Rolling Stone Magazine
                                  • Paste
                                  • The Atlantic
                                  • St. Francis of Assisi
                                  • Weird Christian Twitter

                                    • Reactions to leaving

                                    • Prodigal Son - Luke 15:11-32
                                    • Jemar Tisby - Leave LOUD
                                    • Game: The Oregon Trail

                                      • The Letter

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                                      1 hr 28 min
                                    • 15: Book Club: "Why We Can't Wait" by Martin Luther King, Jr.

                                      We're joined by Nicole Magliore to discuss the book "Why We Can't Wait" by Martin Luther King, Jr. – Not only do we discuss the book, but what white Christians can do to make a difference in a country that is still so stuck in white supremacy and systemic racism. This, my friends, is a fantastic episode.

                                      Intro

                                      • Guest: Nicole Magloire
                                      • Her blog: Give the Grave Only Bones
                                      • Her Facebook page
                                      • Nathan is an anti-pizza communist

                                        • Book Discussion

                                        • “Why We Can’t Wait” by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
                                        • Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
                                        • The Good Samaritan
                                        • The 10 Commandments of Non-violence
                                        • The of practice "redlining"
                                        • Jim Crow Laws

                                        • Homestead Acts

                                        • “The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America” by Richard Rothstein

                                        • “Stand Your Ground: Black Bodies and the Justice of God” by Kelly Brown Douglas

                                        • James Baldwin

                                        • “I Am Not Your Negro”

                                        • Malcolm X

                                        • Tulsa Race Massacre

                                        • “…punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation” Exodus 20:4-6

                                        • “…he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.” Exodus 34:6-7

                                        • Create on-ramps for people - DeRay Mckesson

                                        • “What can I do where I am with what I have?”

                                        • Ask questions

                                        • Create onramps

                                        • Read read read

                                        • Use that knowledge to impact the world

                                        • Don’t think you’re ever done learning

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                                          Special Guest: Nicole Magloire.

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                                          1 hr 28 min
                                        • 14: Accidental Selection: Thoughts on finding a new church

                                          Today we’re talking about our personal criteria for what we’re looking for in a church. We’re both in this awkward stage of looking and it’s a bit like dating, except you only get to have a little bit of cracker and a little bit of juice. We'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback! Email us at [email protected]

                                          Intro

                                          • Get yer COVID vaccine!
                                          • Nathan might be fine and might be dying
                                          • Steve reminds us of our mortality

                                            • The Foundation

                                            • Article: Deal Breakers by Meghan Crozier
                                            • The greatest commands - Mark 12:28-34

                                              • Steve’s Criteria

                                              • LGBTQ+ Affirming churches - GayChurch.org
                                              • Christian Nationalism
                                              • Indicator Species
                                              • God Bless the USA Bible
                                              • Holy Post Podcast
                                              • With God Daily
                                              • Article: “The Celebrity Pastor Problem”

                                                • Nathan’s Criteria

                                                • Russian Fox Taming Experiment
                                                • Fruit of the Spirit - Galatians 5:22-23
                                                • Definition: squelchment
                                                • Article: Preachers and their $5,000 sneakers: Why one man started an Instagram account showing churches’ wealth

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                                                  1 hr 21 min
                                                • 13: Flip-Floppers: Engaging in politics and keeping your soul

                                                  Today we’re discussing everyone’s favorite topic: Politics. We’ll be talking about how and why and if we should involve ourselves in politics, whether or not we all have to agree, and where our focus through it all needs to be.

                                                  Intro - 0:19

                                                  • There’s a very real chance that Steve will become a superhero (but he’ll be good)
                                                  • Nathan points out that the bad guys always think they’re the good guys
                                                  • British Accent = Anything Foreign

                                                    • Why so political? - 4:45

                                                    • Nathan’s likes politics, but he’s not “political”
                                                    • Book: Three Cups of Tea: One Man's Mission to Promote Peace
                                                    • Politics is about the things we disagree on
                                                    • Politics + the Church = Complications

                                                      • Keep them separate? - 24:05

                                                      • “Set your minds on things above, not things below” - Colossians 3:2
                                                      • “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s” - Mark 12:13-17
                                                      • Political Affiliation Test
                                                      • Another Political Affiliation Test
                                                      • “The Christ hymn” -Philippians 2:6-11
                                                      • “Political” = “thing I don’t agree with”
                                                      • The first century is safe territory

                                                        • Can’t we just disagree? - 46:04

                                                        • Jesus used challenging language all the time
                                                        • Jesus speaking in Nazareth: Luke 4:14-28
                                                        • Peace is not the same thing as unity
                                                        • Iron sharpening iron - Proverbs 27:17

                                                          • How should we be involved? - 1:08:22

                                                          • Book of Daniel
                                                          • Story of Joseph - Genesis 37
                                                          • Moses kills the Egyptian Exodus 2:11-15
                                                          • John the Baptist & Herod - Mark 6:14-29
                                                          • Don’t vote for your own power. Use your influence to help those who need help
                                                          • Your voice is more important than your vote
                                                          • Who is the enemy?

                                                            • What’s the focus? - 1:30:47

                                                            • Be kingdom-focused, not salvation-focused
                                                            • “The kingdom is at hand” - Mark 1:14-15
                                                            • Don’t be so afraid of the discomfort
                                                            • Politics isn’t about policy any more, it’s about identity
                                                            • Let’s try to keep our identity focused on Christ

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                                                              1 hr 44 min
                                                            • 12: Don't Give Moses Horns: Are science & faith friends or foes?

                                                              Today we're going to talk about science and religion. Big, big topics that have influenced our faiths for our whole lives. Studies show that Christians everywhere experience the tension between the two things. But is there really a conflict? Do we have to make a choice? Or can there be a harmony when these two ways of looking at the world align?

                                                              The Next Book Club - 0:00

                                                              • Episode 15, June 2: "Why We Can't Wait" by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. - (buy it here)
                                                              • FTF Book Club page

                                                                • Intro - 0:23

                                                                • Nathan’s watch has lost its watchiness
                                                                • Steve & Nathan both frown on re-used sermon outlines

                                                                  • Favorite Science - 4:50

                                                                  • What is your favorite kind of science?
                                                                  • Nathan: Loves wastewater treatment
                                                                  • Steve: Loves immunology (right now)
                                                                  • What’s with this (apparent) conflict between God & Science?
                                                                  • The conflict is actually tribal/identity based
                                                                  • Aristotle’s modes of persuasion - ethos, logos, pathos
                                                                  • Answers in Genesis

                                                                    • Different Continuums - 21:45

                                                                    • Addressing things with from logos doesn’t really work
                                                                    • Pathos is hugely important - it’s about identity
                                                                    • Film: Nacho Libre
                                                                    • Science has been put on the same spectrum as religion
                                                                    • “Christians should take a stand on six literal days, a young earth, and global flood even if it causes division.” - Ken Ham, Did Eve really have an Extra Rib?: And other tough questions about the Bible
                                                                    • “We can't always trust what we see in museums, but we can certainly ALWAYS trust what we read in the Bible.” - Ken Ham, Did Eve really have an Extra Rib?: And other tough questions about the Bible
                                                                    • Scripture: “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”Hebrews 11:1
                                                                    • “I think the world needs to wake up from its long nightmare of religious belief; and anything that we scientists can do to weaken the hold of religion should be done, and may in fact be our greatest contribution to civilization.” - Steven Weinberg, “Beyond Belief : Science, Religion, Reason and Survival”
                                                                    • Science is consensus-based. It’s not a monolith.

                                                                      • Materialism vs. Theism - 36:25

                                                                      • Misunderstanding of the nature of God and the nature of science
                                                                      • Materialism: Stuff and things are all that exists
                                                                      • Theism: There’s something spiritual out there
                                                                      • Scientism
                                                                      • Theism
                                                                      • Article: ‘Stephen Hawking: 'Heaven is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark’
                                                                      • Science and religion address two different things
                                                                      • The God of the Gaps
                                                                      • “The great delusion of modernity, is that the laws of nature explain the universe for us. The laws of nature describe the universe, they describe the regularities. But they explain nothing.” - Ludwig Wittgenstein
                                                                      • Book: God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God?
                                                                      • Article: “How Eric Metaxas went from Trump despiser to true believer”
                                                                      • Video: John Lennox: The Question of Science and God - Part 1
                                                                      • Video: John Lennox: The Question of Science and God - Part 2
                                                                      • Book: “Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy” by Eric Metaxas
                                                                      • Teleology
                                                                      • Article: “The Relativity of Wrong” - Isaac Asimov
                                                                      • Book: “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions” by Thomas Kuhn
                                                                      • Short Story: “The Man” in the book “The Illustrated Man” by Ray Bradbury
                                                                      • Book: “Perelandra” by C.S. Lewis
                                                                      • Book: “The Postmodern Condition: A Report on Knowledge” by Jean-Francois Lyotard
                                                                      • Book: “The Perfect Theory: A Century of Geniuses and the Battle over General Relativity”
                                                                      • Georges Lemaître
                                                                      • BioLogos
                                                                      • Book: “The Language of God” by Francis Collins
                                                                      • Romans 1:20
                                                                      • Scot McKnight quote from this book: “How I Changed My Mind About Evolution: Evangelicals Reflect on Faith and Science”

                                                                        • Word & World - 1:03:28

                                                                        • John 1
                                                                        • Acts 17:28
                                                                        • God gave us his Word and his World, and they do not disagree
                                                                        • We need Christians to be involved in science
                                                                        • Moses had horns?
                                                                        • Video: “God's Word, God's World” by BioLogos

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                                                                          1 hr 20 min
                                                                        • 11: Grieving Leaving: How to leave a church

                                                                          For better or worse, one thing that comes with all the faith deconstruction going on these days is that a lot of people are leaving or changing the church they attend. Nathan has some great advice for those leaving, those who are left, and the leaders of churches. Wherever you fall on that list, this episode is for you.

                                                                          Intro - 0:00

                                                                          • Nathan’s an enneagram 5, which gives him the superpower of reading in the dark??
                                                                          • Nobody's sure how to feel about it snowing in April
                                                                          • Steve is un-cleaning his office
                                                                          • We need butlers

                                                                            • Leaving a Church - 4:35

                                                                            • Listener requested topic: Leaving a church
                                                                            • Steve never got dumped
                                                                            • Nathan got dumped a lot by one person - then he married her
                                                                            • Breaking-up variants: The fizzle, ghosting
                                                                            • Breakup advice:
                                                                              • It’s better to be honest than avoid awkwardness
                                                                              • Give them space and don’t text them at 2 am
                                                                              • Give yourself time to acknowledge what you’re going through
                                                                              • Don’t jump in to something new
                                                                              • Don’t bring your past with you
                                                                              • Don’t isolate yourself; depend on community
                                                                              • It’s a good time to learn about yourself
                                                                              • There are “socially acceptable” times to leave because they’re not “personal”
                                                                              • Nathan’s Vocabulary
                                                                                • “Church” = local congregation
                                                                                • “Kingdom” = where God reigns
                                                                                • “Kingdom Community” = group of people with a kingdom connection to each other
                                                                                • The Kingdom is much much bigger than a church
                                                                                • Lord’s Prayer: “…Your kingdom come…” Matthew 6:9-13

                                                                                  • The Leavers - 24:01

                                                                                  • Important to find community of some kind
                                                                                  • Look forward more than backward
                                                                                  • Vindication and validation will likely not come
                                                                                  • Jonah
                                                                                  • It’s important to go through the grieving process
                                                                                  • But try not to stay there - move forward, look forward
                                                                                  • Remember when YOU were there when someone else left
                                                                                  • There’s a lot of fear around leaving
                                                                                  • If you move you get a cake

                                                                                    • The Left - 54:52

                                                                                    • People who are left at the congregation
                                                                                    • It’s easy to rationalize by “they fell away”
                                                                                    • It’s all tied to identity
                                                                                    • Steve’s dream: People can go to another congregation and still have love and connection with the people at the previous place
                                                                                    • Nathan’s dream: When someone leaves, we should think, “Wow, I wonder what God is doing in their lives!”
                                                                                    • It doesn’t have to be an us vs them situation
                                                                                    • Assume positive intent
                                                                                    • Just listen to what they have to say
                                                                                    • Be friends with who you were friends with
                                                                                    • Don’t excommunicate because you’re mad
                                                                                    • “…go talk to them…” Matthew 18:15-17
                                                                                    • Jesus spent most of his time with those outside his kingdom
                                                                                    • Pay attention to their FRUIT, not just where they go on a Sunday
                                                                                    • “We’re not called to be faithful members, we’re called to be faithful followers. Showing up is not what we’re called to do” -Nathan

                                                                                      • The Leaders - 1:10:31

                                                                                      • When people leave, it’s a hard time for church leaders to be Christ-like
                                                                                      • Gut reactions are dangerous
                                                                                      • When Jesus shows up to places, people flock to him
                                                                                      • “…whoever is not against us is for us.” Mark 9:38-41
                                                                                      • Concealing sin and abuse is NEVER okay
                                                                                      • Concealing abuse is never for the greater good
                                                                                      • We should all try to learn from the situation
                                                                                      • Article: “Losing Our Religion” by Russel Moore
                                                                                      • Twitter: @followingthfire
                                                                                      • Beware the rebound church
                                                                                      • Send us your leaving stories (good or bad) to [email protected]

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                                                                                        1 hr 32 min
                                                                                      • 10: Book Club: "With" by Skye Jethani

                                                                                        On this episode of the Following the Fire Book Club we discuss the book "With" by Skye Jethani. Special guest: Heather Meyer!

                                                                                        Introducing Heather - 1:03

                                                                                        • So many Heathers!
                                                                                        • Film: Heathers

                                                                                          • Introducing “With” - 9:58

                                                                                          • Skye Jethani
                                                                                          • The Holy Post Podcast
                                                                                          • With God Daily Devotional
                                                                                          • Nathan uses his manipulation for good
                                                                                          • Typical postures in relation to God
                                                                                            • Under God - legalism & rules, afraid of God
                                                                                            • Over God - taking God out of the picture
                                                                                            • From God - health and wealth
                                                                                            • For God - focused on mission
                                                                                            • A better way: With God

                                                                                              • Book Discussion - 18:36

                                                                                              • Who sinned, the blind man or his parents? - John 9
                                                                                              • Easier for a camel… - Matthew 19:24
                                                                                              • Prayer of Jabez - 1 Chronicles 4:9-10
                                                                                              • Moses hitting the rock to get water - Numbers 20
                                                                                              • Knowing Christ is the key - Philippians 3:7-9
                                                                                              • Remain as you were - 1 Corinthians 7:20-24
                                                                                              • Be still and know that I am God - Psalm 46:10
                                                                                              • “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” -Anne Lamott
                                                                                              • Faith, Hope, Love - 1 Corinthians 13
                                                                                              • Article: Spiritually, Even Mother Teresa Suffered
                                                                                              • Ignatian principles of consolation and desolation

                                                                                                • The Next Book - 1:16:54

                                                                                                • “Why We Can’t Wait” by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
                                                                                                • Have your questions & comments in by May 17
                                                                                                • Episode will air on June 2
                                                                                                • FTF Book Club Page

                                                                                                  • Join our Patreon - we'd love your support and we have some fantastic patron perks!

                                                                                                  Special Guest: Heather Meyer.

                                                                                                  Support Following the Fire

                                                                                                  1 hr 21 min

                                                                                                About Following the Fire

                                                                                                From the publisher's feed

                                                                                                Like many others, we (Steve & Nathan) are on a spiritual journey of deconstruction and reconstruction to find what God truly wants of us. Just like Israel followed the pillar of fire in the desert, we want to follow God wherever we are led. And just like Israel, we get lost a lot, we get it wrong a lot, but we're trying our best to follow and have a relationship with the Father. Join us on the journey!