Forktales

Renfro Foods is a privately owned, award-winning food producer of salsas, sauces and relishes, including 30 Mrs. Renfro’s products, located in Fort Worth, Texas. 

Founded in 1940, Renfro Foods is owned and managed by the second and third generations of the Renfro family. Its products are sold in the United States, the Caribbean, Canada and the U.K.

As president of Renfro Foods, Doug works closely with his cousins Becky and James to run the company. In particular, Doug focuses on research and development, private label and contract packing, quality assurance, sales and marketing, legal, information technology and a dozen other areas 

Doug and his cousins strive for family harmony in managing the company and don’t make any major decisions without a unanimous vote of support. 

For Doug, one of the benefits of working with family is the ability to be brutally honest with each other and still maintain a civil and professional relationship.  

The team at Renfro Foods pays close attention to flavor trends to identify new salsa flavors. 

“When I got out of college, if I had come to work here I would have been chopping cabbage. The executive positions were filled by my dad and my uncle.” (Doug)

“When I came (to Renfro Foods) I had been in charge of corporate accounting for a billion dollar company. My uncle was still doing pricing on a legal pad with his desk calculator. I said, ‘Here’s a spreadsheet. It’s going to instantaneously recalculate the cost of thousands of items in a millisecond.’ He saw what that did and he said, ‘Can you do that every 90 days from now on?’” (Doug) 

“If you don’t demand as much of your ego to be around, one of the secrets I tell (people) is get somebody without your last name to suggest the same idea you’ve been suggesting that’s been ridiculed and suddenly it’s a great idea.” (Doug)

“If you take business things personally, that screws (family) relationships up.” (Doug) 

“I think we lost money on every jar of Raspberry Chipotle we sold last year. Thankfully we didn’t sell many.” (Doug)

“I want everything on the label to be tasteable but you can’t always afford to do that without losing money,” (Doug) 

00:01.23

vigorbranding

All right, hey there, Fork Tales listeners and viewers. I am really happy to be joined today by a good friend of mine, Doug Renfro. Doug is president of Renfro Foods. And I had to say it like 25 times because somehow the word foods after Renfro, I mean, foods in Renfro is easy.

00:13.93

Doug Renfro

sorry

00:15.18

vigorbranding

Renfro Foods, I just struggled. But anyway, ah he is the the the president of Mrs. Renfro’s Salsa. ah Not only are they a family owned company, which always is interesting, but they’re one of the most innovative companies I know. Doug, welcome and thank you very much for joining us and for your time.

00:32.73

Doug Renfro

Thanks, happy to be here.

00:34.60

vigorbranding

So ah you know I’m going to start off by pointing out i’ve I’ve been very fortunate to know you and to ah have your product. And it’s phenomenal. And I’m not just saying that. ah Case in point, I have three jars behind me that were supposed to be props for this presentation. There were actually more than three. But my favorite one was sent to me, which I thank you for, and I ate it. So ah I don’t have as many jars here as I should probably. but Anyway, it’s a phenomenal product and you know, anyway, I appreciate you sending us some samples. So so tell us tell us about you and Renfro Foods and the story and your role in the company.

01:12.84

Doug Renfro

Sure, we’re an 84-year-old family business and all the development has been organic. My granddad distributed grocery items in the 30s and made it through the Depression and thought, you know what would be fun, we’ll quit my job and start a company out of the house. So in 1940, he and my grandmother started out of their house and for 12 years or so they distributed grocery items and flavored vinegars and different things, spices. And around 1952, they moved into the core building that I actually sit in. We have now two city blocks in the street in between, but we were just one little brick building. And he started making syrup, and I like to point out there were no maple trees harmed.

01:50.40

Doug Renfro

yeah And then they made relishes. And you know, when when I do a trade show, like we’ll be in New York together two weeks from now and it’s a fancy food show and people will walk up and say, are these are grandmother’s recipes.

01:56.90

vigorbranding

Yep.

02:01.53

Doug Renfro

And I always say, no, but wouldn’t that be cool? ah You know, nobody ate Chipotle in 1940, 50, 60, 70. It’s all very organic dynamic.

02:07.41

vigorbranding

Right.

02:09.47

Doug Renfro

So when I was a kid, we just made Southern relishes, which had the velocity of a snail. So we had no money. And then we got in, my dad and my uncle got into taco sauce, thank God, in the seventies, which became macanti, which became salsa. and and ah and so And separating that you know for a moment, I went i worked at the nastiest jobs we had you know every summer, sixth grade, through high school. and In college, I lived at home and mixed the spices in the afternoon, went to school in the morning, very glamorous life. So I got out of college early, went to work for Ross Perot’s company at the time EDS. I was here when they sold it to General Motors, you know wearing a coat and tie every day, going to Detroit. My car did not smell of oregano anymore.

02:46.98

Doug Renfro

ah Very cool, good people, smart people, good money, got my MBA, CMA, and some other acronyms. But, you know, corporate life will suck the soul out of your body. So I came back 32 years ago and working with my cousins, my dad, my late uncle, it’s been a lot of fun and to your point, You know, we weren’t getting a lot of sales with mild, medium, and hot. So we started creating things like craft beer salsa, mango habanero, tequila, I think. And not at um a gourmet store, housewarming gift price, but at an everyday in your grocery cart price.

03:18.68

vigorbranding

Mm-hmm.

03:19.53

Doug Renfro

And we’re fortunate now to 600 brands in the country where Mrs.

03:19.54

vigorbranding

Mm-hmm.

03:23.12

Doug Renfro

Rimbros is number eight. I caution people not to get excited because we doubled would be number eight. but Big folks are big.

03:31.24

vigorbranding

yeah Yeah, well, hey, they are. But you know what, though? Your product is fantastic. And in this in this day and age, we do a quench. We do a ton of CPG work, right? And craft and ah the originality and having a real story It’s super important to people and so products like yours. I mean you yeah I mean, I know you’ve been doing this or for forever you guys but but it’s a really it feels like a really great time for this type of brand and this type of product and Again, it’s all about the quality.

03:52.55

Doug Renfro

you

03:59.98

vigorbranding

So I you know, the mango habanero as I said is my favorite. What’s your favorite?

04:05.52

Doug Renfro

Weirdly, that is also my favorite.

04:06.85

vigorbranding

Ah Nice

04:06.92

Doug Renfro

and and i’ve you know all Almost all the items now are recipes I’ve gotten to create over the years with my vast lack of culinary training. um but we you know I would look at things like Mango Habanero specifically.

04:17.07

vigorbranding

Thank

04:19.83

Doug Renfro

I was at a white tablecloth restaurant. I saw Mango Habanero on Chutney on Halibut, and I followed it away as something maybe five years later, we could sell every day in the grocery stores.

04:22.21

vigorbranding

you.

04:29.82

Doug Renfro

and That’s exactly how it turned out. and Even then, there was pushback internally about, you know, it sounds like a bizarre combination. And of course, it’s a better number two seller now for quite some time nationwide, Canada, UK. But ah it’s also, you know, a normal trend now. And that’s what you’re seeing like, you know, fast food places now have Carolina Reaper french fries, which, yeah you know, 20 years ago, nobody knew what it was.

04:50.78

vigorbranding

Yeah.

04:54.17

Doug Renfro

10 years ago, it was crazy, exotic, ridiculous. And now it’s almost an everyday thing.

04:58.86

vigorbranding

Right, right. So we are you Mrs. Renfro then, if you’re making all these recipes?

05:03.42

Doug Renfro

If you take the, my grandmother’s on the side of the label, if you put a wig on me and shave the beard, I think that’s what you get.

05:11.51

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic. yeah it’ so Okay, so talking about family here. I mean, you know some family owned companies, you and I know know a lot of people are part of family owned companies. ah Some families require members and future leaders to spend time outside the company. ah Was your time required and did you find that time valuable? And then or or did you and did you always plan? I know you worked there when you were young. Did you always plan on coming back to the company? Talk a little bit about that.

05:36.67

Doug Renfro

Sure. My time was not required. Frankly, when I got out of college, if I had come to work here, I would have been chopping cabbage.

05:43.53

vigorbranding

Yeah.

05:43.60

Doug Renfro

ah they they The executive positions were filled by my dad and my uncle. s such a tiny We’re small now. We were tiny, tiny back then. So I had to go somewhere else if I wanted to not wear jeans and be covered with cabbage and onions. And I think it was wildly helpful. like When I came back, I had been you know in charge of corporate accounting for a billion dollar company in some areas. and My uncle was still doing pricing on a legal pad with his hand desk calculator. And I said, look, here’s a spreadsheet. And it’s going to instantaneously recalculate the cost of thousands of items in a millisecond.

06:16.59

Doug Renfro

And he saw what that did. And he’s like, can you do that every 90 days from now on? stick yeah Having the discipline and learning and the networking was just fabulous. And I will tell you, we needed a ah filtration system for the fourth generation. So I said, we can’t hire 14 people just because they want to work here. And I said, in that case, for that gen, yes, you have to work somewhere. You have to graduate college. You have to work somewhere else for at least two years and a real job.

06:41.34

vigorbranding

yep

06:42.42

Doug Renfro

And then we can talk about management training on your management track.

06:44.65

vigorbranding

here

06:46.70

Doug Renfro

And ah today we have zero fourth-generation working here. But we have we have that off and on. About half of them have done so well they could not remotely afford to take a pay cut and come back here.

06:59.74

Doug Renfro

Yeah.

06:59.93

vigorbranding

Yeah, that’s great. And my my rule has always been two years and one promotion.

07:01.41

Doug Renfro

yeah

07:04.61

vigorbranding

If you want to come in the family, in the business, ah you got to, you know, college education, two years and one promotion. So ah and you know what, it’s neither where my girls or seem to be remotely interested. So they’re probably smarter, they but they got a good education.

07:18.22

Doug Renfro

and And we’ve got our age range on Gen 4 is like 23 to 38.

07:19.88

vigorbranding

kind

07:23.63

Doug Renfro

So you know some of them, I didn’t come back till I was 29, I think.

07:23.85

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

07:27.19

Doug Renfro

So there’s you know wait we’ve got lots of time. I’m not ancient yet, but you know I’ve still got some time in me.

07:33.14

vigorbranding

Yeah, well, yeah, sure. Of course you do. and Now you said, in one of your quotes, it was something like, ah ah if people say their family business journey, if if people have said ah their family business journey has been a smooth road, they’re a smooth liar.

07:46.85

Doug Renfro

so

07:46.95

vigorbranding

ah but Talk a little bit about the struggles and the family and all that kind of stuff.

07:47.79

Doug Renfro

well

07:51.08

vigorbranding

Just, you know, like some of the things you have to overcome, because it’s always amazing to me. ah ah Just, you know, what what all is involved there.

07:59.16

Doug Renfro

Yeah, it’s it’s funny. i’ve I’ve spoken to the TCU family business class like eight years in a row now. And I usually start out with how much time do I have? um But is anyone recording this? I’m like you. But you know, one of the things you deal with is like my late uncle and my dad, they, to me, they see me in diapers when I started talking because that’s how they met me.

08:19.23

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

08:19.42

Doug Renfro

And it’s hard, you know, they’ve seen you be a silly kid and get in trouble. And now I’m telling them they need to change the branding. You’re like, you know, what’s this little kid saying, shut up and get back over there. And frankly, if you don’t have, you know, if you don’t demand this much of your ego to be around, one of the secrets I tell them is get somebody without your last name to suggest the same idea you’ve been suggesting that’s been ridiculed. And suddenly, it’s a great idea.

08:42.33

vigorbranding

Hmm.

08:43.81

Doug Renfro

And actually, it becomes their idea. And as long as you can live with that, you know, if it’s all for the greater good, you know, foul I don’t have to get credit for everything, and I don’t have to get immediate results. It’s slow, steady progress to me. Because you and I have seen a lot of people that you know skyrocket up and then skyrocket back down.

08:59.28

vigorbranding

Yep, that’s right.

09:00.96

Doug Renfro

It’s about gradual process. We have we have no investors. you know We just use bank debt when we need it. um It’s all still family controlled. And because of that, it’s more slow, steady path. But yeah, well I think you know I’ve told you that my dad and my late uncle had a rule. They were 50-50. They had a a little sister who didn’t work here, but she could be a swing vote, but they had an agreement. They never ever did anything important if it wasn’t a unanimous vote. They didn’t go get a tiebreaker. So now my cousins and I who run it, we have 84% of the votes of the company, and we could outvote each other on certain things.

09:30.24

vigorbranding

That’s great.

09:38.26

Doug Renfro

And we’ve done the same thing. if it’s I’m talking about a capital expenditure branding campaign, a new flavor. big things. We have to be unanimous or we don’t do it. I just assume I’m missing something if I can’t convince them both and vice versa. And now that’s key. I’ve seen friends who make a lot more money and have a lot more wealth, who have a sibling they can’t talk to, they’ve never spoken to in 20 years, and it breaks their parents’ heart. And we’ve chosen not to do that.

09:59.72

vigorbranding

yeah Yep.

10:02.50

Doug Renfro

We’ve we’ve gone with family harmony, so we sub-optimize, but it’s a family business.

10:02.81

vigorbranding

Yeah.

10:05.90

Doug Renfro

We can do that.

10:06.99

vigorbranding

Yep. And you know, that’s, ah that’s really important. I mean, I know you obviously get it because you said all those words. and and But, but, you know, when you have the family involved, I mean, you know, the family, it’s important.

10:17.69

Doug Renfro

Okay.

10:18.01

vigorbranding

there’s I don’t know that there’s anything more important than family. And you’re, you know, the the company is what supports the family. And so if they can’t all be harm, if there can’t be harmony, At the end of the day, we have. and so I admire you for that, the way you’re handling it, because ah as you’re you’re right. We’ve seen a lot of ah more, unfortunately, probably more examples than not where you know somebody gets ah iced out, or they’re not talking, or you know the families are completely ah dysfunctional now, you know but maybe maybe the business survives, or maybe it doesn’t. and That’s just tragic. so

10:49.71

vigorbranding

And so speaking of, your Uncle Bill, you said, I think one of your other quotes in an interview said something like, you can be brutally honest with each other about ideas. ah he could He could call you an idiot and it’s no big deal. So, I mean, that’s that’s that’s a benefit, right? That level of honesty.

11:03.05

Doug Renfro

Yeah, that’s key is that we were i famously tell that story that like I would say to him or he to me that, you know, I think what you just said was the most stupid thing I’ve ever heard from a business perspective, where do you want to go to lunch? Because we didn’t, you know, there was no personal aspect to it. And and that’s key. If you take business things personally, that screws the relationships all up.

11:22.85

vigorbranding

so you Now, back to the salsa. You have 20 different flavors. and how do you I know you’re the one that’s ah um coming up with a lot of the different formulas. How are you finding that inspiration? I mean, just out there in the world, i mean you said that the the the the mango habanero came from ah a meal you had somewhere. is that Is that pretty much what you’re looking at, just trends and things like that?

11:42.45

Doug Renfro

Yeah, I tell people I’m cursed to have to eat at the nicest restaurants in the nation and, you know, read cool food magazines and see what’s going on. But yeah, it is that that simple, which is not actually simple, is always looking around. You want to see what’s on the edge. You know, I we developed a bacon queso for a customer. And as you know, a lot of what we do is creating things for other people. Our names know we’re on it. There’s no indication we made it. ah But people looked at us for ideation. I’ve had grocery chains come to me and they’re like, what should we do for a private label salsa?

12:12.69

Doug Renfro

It’s going to be our first time. And I don’t mean, we’ll never make the mild, medium, and hot for the big folks, but if they want a pineapple chipotle or something, they were one of the few players that they will come to.

12:19.59

vigorbranding

Right.

12:22.91

Doug Renfro

And i’ll I’ll give them my ideas. Half the time they run with that, say make some recipes for us. Half the time they do the total opposite of what I suggested. As long as they pay us, I’m fine.

12:31.59

vigorbranding

Yeah, makes sense.

12:31.88

Doug Renfro

um But yeah, you’re looking at, and and as you know with trends, most of them won’t become a mango habanero or a ghost pepper, which are in a habanero, which are top sellers. You know, I thought pomegranate chipotle was a great idea. Not many other people did. ah So, you know, you end up DC and you ski rationalization um is painful, but we do go through that.

12:49.81

vigorbranding

Well, and you have to balance that. like you You can be out there too far out on the trends. I mean, a quench, we’ we’re big on trends. We do trends presentations every year, and I know you’ve seen them and been a part of them. And you know so you you see these things that are out there. You want to kind of be first to market, but that can be dangerous because you know maybe maybe the pomegranate is going to be something that will be fantastic maybe in another six months. If you’re too far out in front, you can you can you know get delisted, as you said. or But if you if you would just sit back and be hot and medium and you know mild, I mean, that’s no good either.

13:22.12

vigorbranding

So I really i admire what you’ve done. And I think that the the branding you’ve done and the flavoring you’ve done is fantastic. And just just for all honesty, I don’t do the branding. I mean, your your your design package stuff is impeccable. And I’ve always been a big fan of it. So ah congratulations on that.

13:39.90

Doug Renfro

Thank you.

13:42.28

vigorbranding

So, I mean, now, how many do you try and make? I mean, like, ah is there in your mind, you say, hey, we should come up with two new SKUs a year? Is it sort of like when I find something I like, we’ll make it? ah how does How does that work?

13:55.53

Doug Renfro

But it’s two different answers based on when it was. When I came back, we we weren’t really in grocery stores per se.

13:58.43

vigorbranding

Okay.

14:02.35

Doug Renfro

We were in fruit stands at the time and different things. So we were fighting for our lives. My cousins and I needed more money. Our dads wanted more money. We needed it. You were raising families.

14:12.71

vigorbranding

Yeah.

14:13.20

Doug Renfro

and so we were literally being told no constantly go away because we had hot medium mild and green taco sauce. That’s all we had. And so with no permission, one day when nobody was looking, I added black beans to the medium. Then I added the habanero, which was crazy exotic sexy at the time, you know, super hot. And we would, my sales director and I, he’s been with us 32 years and it’s non-family. We would go to retailers around the country and in Canada and say, hey, I know you have a million sauces before you throw me out. We have a black bean and a habanero at an everyday price, not a gourmet price. It gives you variety. And they started saying, yeah, that’s they’re delicious. That makes sense. We love your company and your marketing and your products. And this will give us variety. And they started putting it in and we were just you know making it up praying. And so after that, we did a

15:01.69

Doug Renfro

but we A couple of years later, we did Chipotle, corn. we i We were early on Chipotle. Nobody could say it, including our own staff. I walked through the office. I’m here. Chipotle. Chipotle.

15:10.26

vigorbranding

but

15:10.84

Doug Renfro

I’m like, oh my god, we can’t pronounce our own product. ah Then when you when Chipotle, the chain became big, they taught everybody. And then Jack in the Box made a hilarious ad about how to power pronounce it. And so, yeah, I would look at things, you know, I saw a ghost pepper in a chocolate bar. I’d been watching it for a couple of years. When I saw it in a chocolate bar, and I told the family, I think we can put it in salsa. My uncle thought we were gonna get sued, so we put a crossbones skull on it, ex-scary hot.

15:33.05

vigorbranding

Hmm.

15:34.74

Doug Renfro

and The Today Show fell in love with it, gave us a solid minute on the Today Show back when we all watched TV and there were no streaming channels. ah Huge success. But at this point, now we’re mature.

15:45.35

vigorbranding

Yeah.

15:47.18

Doug Renfro

and frankly we’re busier than ever on rnd but it’s all for food service co-pack and private label clients with renfro what you’ll see is the big chains will want you to give them two items with a significant slotting and kick out your two slowest ones and i’m like no thank you but if you give us two if you’ll give us two more spots incrementally, we’ll take it, and that happens. But for now, when the when COVID hit, the supply chain fund and the inflation that followed that, frankly, we haven’t come up with a new item since Blackberry Serrano was our last one.

16:20.17

vigorbranding

Nice.

16:20.37

Doug Renfro

And we’ve kind of hunkered down. So you know maybe Pavone pomegranate is next.

16:25.34

vigorbranding

There you go. I love it.

16:26.20

Doug Renfro

I’m still thinking.

16:29.01

vigorbranding

So what what is the what is the mix between ah branded sales, I’ll say, and and food service ah percentages?

16:36.24

Doug Renfro

i And there’s there’s branded food service and then Copac Private Label. So it’s three, it’s a triad, which is really nice. It it really, you know, diversifies things for us. And we’re sort of 40, 45% Renfro and then you split the rest of it between food service and and other brands. Like I can take the national retailer usually and show you, you know, two to five other brands that we make and and not all salsas.

16:53.69

vigorbranding

That’s great.

16:59.57

vigorbranding

Mm

17:00.60

Doug Renfro

You know, we we’re acidified foods, condiments, so we can do cheese in a jar, which God didn’t mean to happen. um barbecue sauce, relish, you know, sauces.

17:12.54

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic. That’s very cool. um So I mean, the flavor thing, again, is brilliant. And I love all the different combinations and they are delicious. You know, through my career, you know, again, doing CPG for for basically, almost 30 years, I hate to say the agencies around for 33 years, but doing the CPG thing for good, I think 25 years. ah food, um the flavor thing was almost, it almost seems a shortcut because there’s a lot of expense involved in in flavors. But like I remember, okay, that as dumb as this sounds, potato chips. It’s like, you know, ah plain potato chips still sell great, but put flavors in there and we helped many ah snack food brands, currently hers, with a lot of their products and and just adding new flavors all the time.

17:43.66

Doug Renfro

Wow.

17:52.57

vigorbranding

Just the consumer loves it. It gets them excited. We even did it with tuna, which, I mean, adding flavor to tuna, ah you know, and it just, we blew sales out of the water. Now, again, the companies were the the R and&D behind it, but we were like all in for the, the you know, the Sriracha flavored and all the different types of ah tuna flavors. And, you know, for Starkus, and it blew them out and the sales went through the roof.

18:14.72

Doug Renfro

So.

18:17.12

vigorbranding

So, I mean, the, I know R and&D and I know category extensions can be expensive, but I also think there’s a a sort of a hidden ah marketing excitement. ah It just you know it brings brings energy to the category. And again, when you see your products against across the shelf or those log those those labels across, it’s ah it’s a really impressive uh a lineup i mean how how you mean i do i obviously probably feel the same where you wouldn’t have so many but i mean yeah i’m sure you’re torn like do we want another skew do we not want another skew can you talk a little just a little bit about that

18:51.01

Doug Renfro

Yeah, it’s challenging because everything in life, usually the 80-20 rule works and ours, you know, we have 28 current Renfro SKUs, the top four do have the sales, you know, the top seven or 70% of the sales.

19:01.36

vigorbranding

huh

19:03.24

Doug Renfro

So you’re like, well, why don’t we just cut the rest of them because people want variety and the people who want those second tier items. It’s funny on our online platforms, those will be our best sellers because they’re so hard to get and the people don’t care what it costs. They just want it so badly.

19:16.56

vigorbranding

Right.

19:17.79

Doug Renfro

and But and you know no matter what you do, I don’t care if you have another 10 fantastic skews, the top four or five are going to be half your sales.

19:24.24

vigorbranding

That’s right.

19:26.20

Doug Renfro

If you go to a farmer’s market and they got like 30 kinds of jelly, you’ll inevitably find that two or three do most of the sales. But they they get attention. People come over there because they want to taste you know coconut marmalade, but they end up buying peach. you

19:40.92

vigorbranding

Right, right, right, right. Well, I think I heard you say that the mango habanero is number two. What’s what’s number one?

19:47.21

Doug Renfro

of habanero, though the one I was told internally would never sell much because it was so hot, but it’d be cute to have.

19:53.27

vigorbranding

Wow.

19:53.65

Doug Renfro

think It’s been number one for over 15 years and I can’t eat it. i Most of the things that are best sellers that I’ve created and when I create for Renfro, my cousins get votes in our sales director. If it’s non Renfro, the customer rules or I’ll make up something. but for rent bro i I first cook with Microsoft Excel because it we line price. It doesn’t matter how good it is if we lose money on it because I can’t charge more on just one item. So first I pre-cook it in Excel and if it’s going to work financially, then I i do what I think is good. and Then I bring in my cousins and a lot of like on the craft beer, we were about ready to take it to New York.

20:31.12

Doug Renfro

for the big show and I was like, it’s just kind of bland. And then my cousin Becky was like, yeah, it’s, they need something.

20:36.20

vigorbranding

Mm hmm, mm hmm.

20:36.98

Doug Renfro

So I threw in Guajillo, Ancho and Chipotle in small amounts. It’s kind of a mid range. And we’re like, she’s like, yeah, that’s better. And then James might think it needs to be chunkier who runs production and our sales director might have an opinion. And so it, you know, it is a village situation, but you’re right. Right now we’re like, oh, it gives me a headache to think about another skew. Cause how much could it sell? Your home runs are about one a decade.

21:00.63

vigorbranding

yeah Yeah. So you you said something very interesting there. And again, being in a CPG world, I have experience with that whole line pricing thing. So if I can ask, like I’ll say it this way. We had a client we worked with for, oh boy, we built the brand. It was probably a good 18 years and it was Turkey Hill Ice Cream. And Turkey Hill, like most brands, had a line price. But there was an awful lot of a difference in cost to make vanilla ice cream versus, let’s say, ah like a rainforest crunch or anything with nuts and stuff. Because the expense of those nuts, and and people don’t realize that.

21:32.10

Doug Renfro

Right.

21:33.41

vigorbranding

They just think it’s, oh, it’s two for $5. Or, oh, the price went up. Or it’s 89 cents more. But they they don’t realize. that one flavor to another flavor could be a huge difference and in in the cost to make it. um do you run I mean, I have to imagine you run into that to a degree. And ah you know is that something you have to deal with?

21:52.47

Doug Renfro

and and Absolutely. I think we lost money on every jar of raspberry chipotle we sold last year. Fortunately, we didn’t sell many. but yeah Raspberry is an item that the price goes wildly up and down, fluctuates like crazy. and Most things don’t. they They go up slowly or they sit still. but Our craft beer salsa, we don’t make as much money on it, but it’s fabulous and tastes great. But yeah would I be thrilled if everybody just bought mild all day long? Absolutely. I could get a new car.

22:23.33

vigorbranding

Yeah, there you go.

22:23.47

Doug Renfro

i myself And that is that is exactly the challenging aspect. Blackberry Serrano, you know making that worthy of the name, I get really annoyed when I go to a restaurant. They got a tomatillo pecan, you know smoked watermelon sauce, and all I can taste is salt. I want i want everything on the label to be tastable, but you can’t afford always to do that as much as you’d like without losing money.

22:39.89

vigorbranding

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. That’s ah well yeah that’s ah that’s the the the the difficult part of, I’ll say, what you guys do. And that’s that’s putting product ah quality product in ah in a container. Whatever your your product is. It could be ice cream, salsa. It could be potato chips. It can be candy. it’s just the the The flavoring, you can do it. But there’s always these these cost constraints, that line pricing thing. and And then there’s the evil empires of the retailers, right? so

23:12.03

Doug Renfro

It’s a delicate dance.

23:12.91

vigorbranding

but its It is a delicate dance and I don’t i don’t envy you. so But hey, you sent us a bunch of salsa, so like we’ve had a lot of parties at Proven Group, and ah but we’re gonna have our first salsa party coming up, so we’re pretty excited about that. um But as we know, um you you have recipes throughout the thing, so ah your salsas aren’t just for tortilla chips.

23:29.66

Doug Renfro

the

23:33.46

vigorbranding

You have tons of recipes on your website that you salsa.

23:33.90

Doug Renfro

right

23:37.31

vigorbranding

um So we’ll have some fun.

23:37.41

Doug Renfro

ye

23:38.43

vigorbranding

I’m gonna i’m gonna name a few recipes from your site that use salsa. And you can tell me if you’ve tried it and what you thought of it. Ready to roll?

23:46.76

Doug Renfro

Ready.

23:47.46

vigorbranding

All right, we have the Molten Chili Chocolate Brownie with raspberry chipotle salsa.

23:54.46

Doug Renfro

That came out of a wine pairing dinner. I thought it was and a winery owner and we’re a charity event and I thought she was inebriated and they She would sober up later. No, she flew us out there and had her chef and they had like 80 people bought tickets and they paired a Renfro item with every course. And for dessert, they they used the raspberry chipotle. I think they blended it with maybe raspberries and sugar also. But ah on chocolate, that did pair nicely.

24:19.34

vigorbranding

Yeah, ah that’s interesting.

24:19.62

Doug Renfro

yeah

24:21.07

vigorbranding

and But that was your most expensive vitamin, so maybe you don’t want to sell too many of those brownies, right?

24:24.76

Doug Renfro

ah please Yeah, please don’t buy too much of it.

24:29.31

vigorbranding

Alright, meatloaf with craft beer salsa.

24:33.21

Doug Renfro

I have not had that. I have had it with the roasted salsa, which has a really strong mesquite aspect to it.

24:39.53

vigorbranding

Nice. ah Grilled, and this is also a delicious ah one of your products, but grilled peach salsa chicken with a pe with ah with a peach salsa.

24:48.11

Doug Renfro

yeah Back in the day when we still had to demo at the booth, that was our go-to.

24:51.39

vigorbranding

Uh-huh.

24:52.21

Doug Renfro

And and it’s funny, people think they’re cooking. If you say, put a jar of peach salsa in a baggie, throw in the chicken breast, put it in the fridge for an hour or two, then grill it. They think they’re like a gourmet chef. um And it tastes delicious.

25:03.30

vigorbranding

Yep.

25:04.91

Doug Renfro

You can reserve some. ah It’ll caramelize on the grill, and then you can reserve like a third of it and pour it over just as you serve it.

25:07.79

vigorbranding

Mm

25:10.15

Doug Renfro

And that is delicious and crazy simple.

25:10.85

vigorbranding

-hmm. Yeah, that’s great. I mean, a very good friend of mine owns a company called Gazebo salad dressing, and he sells way more salad dressing as a marinade than he does as a salad dressing. And it’s really, truly a salad dressing, but people find figured out that you know marinating in this in these products, and I’m sure your products are are phenomenal for that.

25:32.84

Doug Renfro

And I love any recipe that’s take a whole jar and use it.

25:35.06

vigorbranding

Right. That’s right. That’s right.

25:36.98

Doug Renfro

No tablespoon recipes.

25:38.73

vigorbranding

Yeah.

25:38.89

Doug Renfro

yeah

25:39.37

vigorbranding

Yeah. He he realized that early on. It’s like, well, you know, the more, especially guys, right? Guys are grilling. So what do they do? They dump the whole jar to your point, you know, we’re not, we’re not going to spare anything.

25:45.50

Doug Renfro

Absolutely. sister yeah

25:47.93

vigorbranding

So that’s, that’s the perfect consumer right there.

25:48.64

Doug Renfro

yeah

25:50.55

vigorbranding

All right. spag Spicy spaghetti sauce with medium salsa.

25:54.72

Doug Renfro

I don’t recall having that. I think we i think my cousin Becky pre-cooked everything before we would let it be on a label back and when we started doing this. I i probably sampled it, but she’s our ah she she cooks as my wife does too. ah gee They’re both excellent cooks and will actually whip these things up. I’m gluten-free too, but my wife can find gluten-free pasta to put that on.

26:16.82

vigorbranding

There you go.

26:16.93

Doug Renfro

I’ll tell her Michael said we had to taste it.

26:18.85

vigorbranding

There you go. That’s it. That’s it. So the last one is Mexican fudge with green jalapeno salsa. This one isn’t a chocolate fudge, it’s more of a cheese.

26:27.63

Doug Renfro

yeah When I came back 32 years ago, that was the only recipe we had, and it’s still the most popular. My aunt came up with that, interestingly. and it’s It’s cheddar cheese, eggs, and green salsa, and you just add more green salsa if you want it spicier, and you you put it in a pan, you throw it in the oven for 40 minutes, you go get ready for the party, whatever, take it out, slice it up, put it on triskets or whatever, and people love it. It’s gone, especially when it’s warm, and you serve it that way. ah We call it cowboy cobbler. I mean, there’s a million things, but it’s just three ingredients. like Even I can’t screw it up.

27:01.20

vigorbranding

Now you said that that when you do R and&D, it’s your cousins get involved, but you also said like the the really hot, you can’t eat. Like that’s for, is that your palette? Is it just, you don’t really like super spicy or how does that work?

27:10.80

Doug Renfro

It hurts.

27:14.06

Doug Renfro

My assistant, it’s ah my R and&D guru that I’ve got working with me now the last few years. He’ll make me occasionally do a cutting of like ghost pepper case. So in the morning, I’m like, really? That’s my breakfast. And with ghost pepper, habanero, Carolina Reaper, I can taste two or three, four samples. And I’m done for a few hours because then I’m torched and I can’t distinguish anything different.

27:33.60

vigorbranding

Right.

27:37.32

Doug Renfro

Fortunately, I don’t have to very often when we’re coming up with something. um You know, I created a ah special ah triple hot reaper for a business group you and I are in and I tasted that till I couldn’t see my feet and then we said, okay, it must be fine.

27:53.90

vigorbranding

Well, that’s fantastic. So tell me, before we wrap up, like what’s next for Renfro Foods? i mean Can you share any details about what you’re cooking up for the future? Anything you’re excited about? Anything that’s going on in the company or in the family?

28:07.24

Doug Renfro

Yeah, that’s always a frustrating thing about doing so much private label and co-pack and food services. I can’t talk about most of it, but it’s really cool. We’re we’re doing things for people like ah the dairy-free queso, you know, that’s nut-based, the things that my 87-year-old father is like, what?

28:22.27

vigorbranding

me

28:26.19

Doug Renfro

That’s what my grandparents wouldn’t have known. ah We do ethnic sauces. We were always reinvesting in the plant. my My dad, my late uncle, my grandparents taught us don’t ever milk the company. So we doubled our shipping warehouse two years ago. We added a brand new two story production employee break room with QA and production offices above it. We automated some more things on the food service line. We’re always reinvesting. We’re always looking, you know, for the future we’re doing licensing agreements with other brands where we handle the marketing for them and you’ll see if yeah you’re gonna be in the new york show i think you’ll see another brand in our booth that i can talk about then.

28:55.96

vigorbranding

Awesome.

28:59.33

vigorbranding

Yep.

29:04.36

vigorbranding

Super. That’s awesome. I mean, congratulations on all the success. and I mean, you’re, you’re a great president. You’re always very self-deprecating. Absolutely hilarious. Lots of fun. And I think that just, it sort of just, you represent the brand in my mind and in a lot, in all the positive ways, you know, and I would love to see you put a wig on and and try and emulate your camera. That would be, ah that would be fantastic.

29:23.97

Doug Renfro

maybe yeah yeah

29:25.99

vigorbranding

That’s how you should work the booth. You should be Mrs. Renfro. So,

29:28.46

Doug Renfro

like

29:29.43

vigorbranding

All right, so I have one last question I asked this from every guest and it can’t be your product if you had one final meal What would you eat? Maybe where and why?

29:40.36

Doug Renfro

Well, I forgot the can’t do your problems. You gotta start with chips and salsa. And frankly, I do eat lots of people’s salsa. It’s it’s experimentation, but also, you know, I always ask people, you think the donut shop guy eats a donut every day? You know, you want to change it up. ah for lunch ah For the entree, I think I’d have chicken tikka masala. My wife and I have become big fans of of Indian food and eating it around the world. I would say one of the places in London, I think it’s Rick Road that has all their Indian restaurants.

30:05.10

vigorbranding

Nice.

30:06.18

Doug Renfro

And then Grand Marnier Soufflé for dessert. It’s one of those things that’s too hard to make at home, but most so hard that it’s hard to find it. There’s a French restaurant locally. I can get it like occasionally and that, now those don’t go together, but you said final meal, so it doesn’t matter.

30:20.00

vigorbranding

That’s it. Final meal. Yeah, that’s what you got to do. That’s fantastic.

30:23.12

Doug Renfro

ah

30:23.48

vigorbranding

Well, Doug, thank you very much.

30:24.20

Doug Renfro

yeah

30:25.29

vigorbranding

I look forward to, I know you’re doing ah an event in in in Fort Worth ah for all of us. um That’ll be fantastic. And I will see you at Fancy Food.

30:34.95

Doug Renfro

See you there. Thanks again for letting me play.

30:36.83

vigorbranding

All right, pal. Appreciate it.

00:01.23

vigorbranding

All right, hey there, Fork Tales listeners and viewers. I am really happy to be joined today by a good friend of mine, Doug Renfro. Doug is president of Renfro Foods. And I had to say it like 25 times because somehow the word foods after Renfro, I mean, foods in Renfro is easy.

00:13.93

Doug Renfro

sorry

00:15.18

vigorbranding

Renfro Foods, I just struggled. But anyway, ah he is the the the president of Mrs. Renfro’s Salsa. ah Not only are they a family owned company, which always is interesting, but they’re one of the most innovative companies I know. Doug, welcome and thank you very much for joining us and for your time.

00:32.73

Doug Renfro

Thanks, happy to be here.

00:34.60

vigorbranding

So ah you know I’m going to start off by pointing out i’ve I’ve been very fortunate to know you and to ah have your product. And it’s phenomenal. And I’m not just saying that. ah Case in point, I have three jars behind me that were supposed to be props for this presentation. There were actually more than three. But my favorite one was sent to me, which I thank you for, and I ate it. So ah I don’t have as many jars here as I should probably. but Anyway, it’s a phenomenal product and you know, anyway, I appreciate you sending us some samples. So so tell us tell us about you and Renfro Foods and the story and your role in the company.

01:12.84

Doug Renfro

Sure, we’re an 84-year-old family business and all the development has been organic. My granddad distributed grocery items in the 30s and made it through the Depression and thought, you know what would be fun, we’ll quit my job and start a company out of the house. So in 1940, he and my grandmother started out of their house and for 12 years or so they distributed grocery items and flavored vinegars and different things, spices. And around 1952, they moved into the core building that I actually sit in. We have now two city blocks in the street in between, but we were just one little brick building. And he started making syrup, and I like to point out there were no maple trees harmed.

01:50.40

Doug Renfro

yeah And then they made relishes. And you know, when when I do a trade show, like we’ll be in New York together two weeks from now and it’s a fancy food show and people will walk up and say, are these are grandmother’s recipes.

01:56.90

vigorbranding

Yep.

02:01.53

Doug Renfro

And I always say, no, but wouldn’t that be cool? ah You know, nobody ate Chipotle in 1940, 50, 60, 70. It’s all very organic dynamic.

02:07.41

vigorbranding

Right.

02:09.47

Doug Renfro

So when I was a kid, we just made Southern relishes, which had the velocity of a snail. So we had no money. And then we got in, my dad and my uncle got into taco sauce, thank God, in the seventies, which became macanti, which became salsa. and and ah and so And separating that you know for a moment, I went i worked at the nastiest jobs we had you know every summer, sixth grade, through high school. and In college, I lived at home and mixed the spices in the afternoon, went to school in the morning, very glamorous life. So I got out of college early, went to work for Ross Perot’s company at the time EDS. I was here when they sold it to General Motors, you know wearing a coat and tie every day, going to Detroit. My car did not smell of oregano anymore.

02:46.98

Doug Renfro

ah Very cool, good people, smart people, good money, got my MBA, CMA, and some other acronyms. But, you know, corporate life will suck the soul out of your body. So I came back 32 years ago and working with my cousins, my dad, my late uncle, it’s been a lot of fun and to your point, You know, we weren’t getting a lot of sales with mild, medium, and hot. So we started creating things like craft beer salsa, mango habanero, tequila, I think. And not at um a gourmet store, housewarming gift price, but at an everyday in your grocery cart price.

03:18.68

vigorbranding

Mm-hmm.

03:19.53

Doug Renfro

And we’re fortunate now to 600 brands in the country where Mrs.

03:19.54

vigorbranding

Mm-hmm.

03:23.12

Doug Renfro

Rimbros is number eight. I caution people not to get excited because we doubled would be number eight. but Big folks are big.

03:31.24

vigorbranding

yeah Yeah, well, hey, they are. But you know what, though? Your product is fantastic. And in this in this day and age, we do a quench. We do a ton of CPG work, right? And craft and ah the originality and having a real story It’s super important to people and so products like yours. I mean you yeah I mean, I know you’ve been doing this or for forever you guys but but it’s a really it feels like a really great time for this type of brand and this type of product and Again, it’s all about the quality.

03:52.55

Doug Renfro

you

03:59.98

vigorbranding

So I you know, the mango habanero as I said is my favorite. What’s your favorite?

04:05.52

Doug Renfro

Weirdly, that is also my favorite.

04:06.85

vigorbranding

Ah Nice

04:06.92

Doug Renfro

and and i’ve you know all Almost all the items now are recipes I’ve gotten to create over the years with my vast lack of culinary training. um but we you know I would look at things like Mango Habanero specifically.

04:17.07

vigorbranding

Thank

04:19.83

Doug Renfro

I was at a white tablecloth restaurant. I saw Mango Habanero on Chutney on Halibut, and I followed it away as something maybe five years later, we could sell every day in the grocery stores.

04:22.21

vigorbranding

you.

04:29.82

Doug Renfro

and That’s exactly how it turned out. and Even then, there was pushback internally about, you know, it sounds like a bizarre combination. And of course, it’s a better number two seller now for quite some time nationwide, Canada, UK. But ah it’s also, you know, a normal trend now. And that’s what you’re seeing like, you know, fast food places now have Carolina Reaper french fries, which, yeah you know, 20 years ago, nobody knew what it was.

04:50.78

vigorbranding

Yeah.

04:54.17

Doug Renfro

10 years ago, it was crazy, exotic, ridiculous. And now it’s almost an everyday thing.

04:58.86

vigorbranding

Right, right. So we are you Mrs. Renfro then, if you’re making all these recipes?

05:03.42

Doug Renfro

If you take the, my grandmother’s on the side of the label, if you put a wig on me and shave the beard, I think that’s what you get.

05:11.51

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic. yeah it’ so Okay, so talking about family here. I mean, you know some family owned companies, you and I know know a lot of people are part of family owned companies. ah Some families require members and future leaders to spend time outside the company. ah Was your time required and did you find that time valuable? And then or or did you and did you always plan? I know you worked there when you were young. Did you always plan on coming back to the company? Talk a little bit about that.

05:36.67

Doug Renfro

Sure. My time was not required. Frankly, when I got out of college, if I had come to work here, I would have been chopping cabbage.

05:43.53

vigorbranding

Yeah.

05:43.60

Doug Renfro

ah they they The executive positions were filled by my dad and my uncle. s such a tiny We’re small now. We were tiny, tiny back then. So I had to go somewhere else if I wanted to not wear jeans and be covered with cabbage and onions. And I think it was wildly helpful. like When I came back, I had been you know in charge of corporate accounting for a billion dollar company in some areas. and My uncle was still doing pricing on a legal pad with his hand desk calculator. And I said, look, here’s a spreadsheet. And it’s going to instantaneously recalculate the cost of thousands of items in a millisecond.

06:16.59

Doug Renfro

And he saw what that did. And he’s like, can you do that every 90 days from now on? stick yeah Having the discipline and learning and the networking was just fabulous. And I will tell you, we needed a ah filtration system for the fourth generation. So I said, we can’t hire 14 people just because they want to work here. And I said, in that case, for that gen, yes, you have to work somewhere. You have to graduate college. You have to work somewhere else for at least two years and a real job.

06:41.34

vigorbranding

yep

06:42.42

Doug Renfro

And then we can talk about management training on your management track.

06:44.65

vigorbranding

here

06:46.70

Doug Renfro

And ah today we have zero fourth-generation working here. But we have we have that off and on. About half of them have done so well they could not remotely afford to take a pay cut and come back here.

06:59.74

Doug Renfro

Yeah.

06:59.93

vigorbranding

Yeah, that’s great. And my my rule has always been two years and one promotion.

07:01.41

Doug Renfro

yeah

07:04.61

vigorbranding

If you want to come in the family, in the business, ah you got to, you know, college education, two years and one promotion. So ah and you know what, it’s neither where my girls or seem to be remotely interested. So they’re probably smarter, they but they got a good education.

07:18.22

Doug Renfro

and And we’ve got our age range on Gen 4 is like 23 to 38.

07:19.88

vigorbranding

kind

07:23.63

Doug Renfro

So you know some of them, I didn’t come back till I was 29, I think.

07:23.85

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

07:27.19

Doug Renfro

So there’s you know wait we’ve got lots of time. I’m not ancient yet, but you know I’ve still got some time in me.

07:33.14

vigorbranding

Yeah, well, yeah, sure. Of course you do. and Now you said, in one of your quotes, it was something like, ah ah if people say their family business journey, if if people have said ah their family business journey has been a smooth road, they’re a smooth liar.

07:46.85

Doug Renfro

so

07:46.95

vigorbranding

ah but Talk a little bit about the struggles and the family and all that kind of stuff.

07:47.79

Doug Renfro

well

07:51.08

vigorbranding

Just, you know, like some of the things you have to overcome, because it’s always amazing to me. ah ah Just, you know, what what all is involved there.

07:59.16

Doug Renfro

Yeah, it’s it’s funny. i’ve I’ve spoken to the TCU family business class like eight years in a row now. And I usually start out with how much time do I have? um But is anyone recording this? I’m like you. But you know, one of the things you deal with is like my late uncle and my dad, they, to me, they see me in diapers when I started talking because that’s how they met me.

08:19.23

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

08:19.42

Doug Renfro

And it’s hard, you know, they’ve seen you be a silly kid and get in trouble. And now I’m telling them they need to change the branding. You’re like, you know, what’s this little kid saying, shut up and get back over there. And frankly, if you don’t have, you know, if you don’t demand this much of your ego to be around, one of the secrets I tell them is get somebody without your last name to suggest the same idea you’ve been suggesting that’s been ridiculed. And suddenly, it’s a great idea.

08:42.33

vigorbranding

Hmm.

08:43.81

Doug Renfro

And actually, it becomes their idea. And as long as you can live with that, you know, if it’s all for the greater good, you know, foul I don’t have to get credit for everything, and I don’t have to get immediate results. It’s slow, steady progress to me. Because you and I have seen a lot of people that you know skyrocket up and then skyrocket back down.

08:59.28

vigorbranding

Yep, that’s right.

09:00.96

Doug Renfro

It’s about gradual process. We have we have no investors. you know We just use bank debt when we need it. um It’s all still family controlled. And because of that, it’s more slow, steady path. But yeah, well I think you know I’ve told you that my dad and my late uncle had a rule. They were 50-50. They had a a little sister who didn’t work here, but she could be a swing vote, but they had an agreement. They never ever did anything important if it wasn’t a unanimous vote. They didn’t go get a tiebreaker. So now my cousins and I who run it, we have 84% of the votes of the company, and we could outvote each other on certain things.

09:30.24

vigorbranding

That’s great.

09:38.26

Doug Renfro

And we’ve done the same thing. if it’s I’m talking about a capital expenditure branding campaign, a new flavor. big things. We have to be unanimous or we don’t do it. I just assume I’m missing something if I can’t convince them both and vice versa. And now that’s key. I’ve seen friends who make a lot more money and have a lot more wealth, who have a sibling they can’t talk to, they’ve never spoken to in 20 years, and it breaks their parents’ heart. And we’ve chosen not to do that.

09:59.72

vigorbranding

yeah Yep.

10:02.50

Doug Renfro

We’ve we’ve gone with family harmony, so we sub-optimize, but it’s a family business.

10:02.81

vigorbranding

Yeah.

10:05.90

Doug Renfro

We can do that.

10:06.99

vigorbranding

Yep. And you know, that’s, ah that’s really important. I mean, I know you obviously get it because you said all those words. and and But, but, you know, when you have the family involved, I mean, you know, the family, it’s important.

10:17.69

Doug Renfro

Okay.

10:18.01

vigorbranding

there’s I don’t know that there’s anything more important than family. And you’re, you know, the the company is what supports the family. And so if they can’t all be harm, if there can’t be harmony, At the end of the day, we have. and so I admire you for that, the way you’re handling it, because ah as you’re you’re right. We’ve seen a lot of ah more, unfortunately, probably more examples than not where you know somebody gets ah iced out, or they’re not talking, or you know the families are completely ah dysfunctional now, you know but maybe maybe the business survives, or maybe it doesn’t. and That’s just tragic. so

10:49.71

vigorbranding

And so speaking of, your Uncle Bill, you said, I think one of your other quotes in an interview said something like, you can be brutally honest with each other about ideas. ah he could He could call you an idiot and it’s no big deal. So, I mean, that’s that’s that’s a benefit, right? That level of honesty.

11:03.05

Doug Renfro

Yeah, that’s key is that we were i famously tell that story that like I would say to him or he to me that, you know, I think what you just said was the most stupid thing I’ve ever heard from a business perspective, where do you want to go to lunch? Because we didn’t, you know, there was no personal aspect to it. And and that’s key. If you take business things personally, that screws the relationships all up.

11:22.85

vigorbranding

so you Now, back to the salsa. You have 20 different flavors. and how do you I know you’re the one that’s ah um coming up with a lot of the different formulas. How are you finding that inspiration? I mean, just out there in the world, i mean you said that the the the the mango habanero came from ah a meal you had somewhere. is that Is that pretty much what you’re looking at, just trends and things like that?

11:42.45

Doug Renfro

Yeah, I tell people I’m cursed to have to eat at the nicest restaurants in the nation and, you know, read cool food magazines and see what’s going on. But yeah, it is that that simple, which is not actually simple, is always looking around. You want to see what’s on the edge. You know, I we developed a bacon queso for a customer. And as you know, a lot of what we do is creating things for other people. Our names know we’re on it. There’s no indication we made it. ah But people looked at us for ideation. I’ve had grocery chains come to me and they’re like, what should we do for a private label salsa?

12:12.69

Doug Renfro

It’s going to be our first time. And I don’t mean, we’ll never make the mild, medium, and hot for the big folks, but if they want a pineapple chipotle or something, they were one of the few players that they will come to.

12:19.59

vigorbranding

Right.

12:22.91

Doug Renfro

And i’ll I’ll give them my ideas. Half the time they run with that, say make some recipes for us. Half the time they do the total opposite of what I suggested. As long as they pay us, I’m fine.

12:31.59

vigorbranding

Yeah, makes sense.

12:31.88

Doug Renfro

um But yeah, you’re looking at, and and as you know with trends, most of them won’t become a mango habanero or a ghost pepper, which are in a habanero, which are top sellers. You know, I thought pomegranate chipotle was a great idea. Not many other people did. ah So, you know, you end up DC and you ski rationalization um is painful, but we do go through that.

12:49.81

vigorbranding

Well, and you have to balance that. like you You can be out there too far out on the trends. I mean, a quench, we’ we’re big on trends. We do trends presentations every year, and I know you’ve seen them and been a part of them. And you know so you you see these things that are out there. You want to kind of be first to market, but that can be dangerous because you know maybe maybe the pomegranate is going to be something that will be fantastic maybe in another six months. If you’re too far out in front, you can you can you know get delisted, as you said. or But if you if you would just sit back and be hot and medium and you know mild, I mean, that’s no good either.

13:22.12

vigorbranding

So I really i admire what you’ve done. And I think that the the branding you’ve done and the flavoring you’ve done is fantastic. And just just for all honesty, I don’t do the branding. I mean, your your your design package stuff is impeccable. And I’ve always been a big fan of it. So ah congratulations on that.

13:39.90

Doug Renfro

Thank you.

13:42.28

vigorbranding

So, I mean, now, how many do you try and make? I mean, like, ah is there in your mind, you say, hey, we should come up with two new SKUs a year? Is it sort of like when I find something I like, we’ll make it? ah how does How does that work?

13:55.53

Doug Renfro

But it’s two different answers based on when it was. When I came back, we we weren’t really in grocery stores per se.

13:58.43

vigorbranding

Okay.

14:02.35

Doug Renfro

We were in fruit stands at the time and different things. So we were fighting for our lives. My cousins and I needed more money. Our dads wanted more money. We needed it. You were raising families.

14:12.71

vigorbranding

Yeah.

14:13.20

Doug Renfro

and so we were literally being told no constantly go away because we had hot medium mild and green taco sauce. That’s all we had. And so with no permission, one day when nobody was looking, I added black beans to the medium. Then I added the habanero, which was crazy exotic sexy at the time, you know, super hot. And we would, my sales director and I, he’s been with us 32 years and it’s non-family. We would go to retailers around the country and in Canada and say, hey, I know you have a million sauces before you throw me out. We have a black bean and a habanero at an everyday price, not a gourmet price. It gives you variety. And they started saying, yeah, that’s they’re delicious. That makes sense. We love your company and your marketing and your products. And this will give us variety. And they started putting it in and we were just you know making it up praying. And so after that, we did a

15:01.69

Doug Renfro

but we A couple of years later, we did Chipotle, corn. we i We were early on Chipotle. Nobody could say it, including our own staff. I walked through the office. I’m here. Chipotle. Chipotle.

15:10.26

vigorbranding

but

15:10.84

Doug Renfro

I’m like, oh my god, we can’t pronounce our own product. ah Then when you when Chipotle, the chain became big, they taught everybody. And then Jack in the Box made a hilarious ad about how to power pronounce it. And so, yeah, I would look at things, you know, I saw a ghost pepper in a chocolate bar. I’d been watching it for a couple of years. When I saw it in a chocolate bar, and I told the family, I think we can put it in salsa. My uncle thought we were gonna get sued, so we put a crossbones skull on it, ex-scary hot.

15:33.05

vigorbranding

Hmm.

15:34.74

Doug Renfro

and The Today Show fell in love with it, gave us a solid minute on the Today Show back when we all watched TV and there were no streaming channels. ah Huge success. But at this point, now we’re mature.

15:45.35

vigorbranding

Yeah.

15:47.18

Doug Renfro

and frankly we’re busier than ever on rnd but it’s all for food service co-pack and private label clients with renfro what you’ll see is the big chains will want you to give them two items with a significant slotting and kick out your two slowest ones and i’m like no thank you but if you give us two if you’ll give us two more spots incrementally, we’ll take it, and that happens. But for now, when the when COVID hit, the supply chain fund and the inflation that followed that, frankly, we haven’t come up with a new item since Blackberry Serrano was our last one.

16:20.17

vigorbranding

Nice.

16:20.37

Doug Renfro

And we’ve kind of hunkered down. So you know maybe Pavone pomegranate is next.

16:25.34

vigorbranding

There you go. I love it.

16:26.20

Doug Renfro

I’m still thinking.

16:29.01

vigorbranding

So what what is the what is the mix between ah branded sales, I’ll say, and and food service ah percentages?

16:36.24

Doug Renfro

i And there’s there’s branded food service and then Copac Private Label. So it’s three, it’s a triad, which is really nice. It it really, you know, diversifies things for us. And we’re sort of 40, 45% Renfro and then you split the rest of it between food service and and other brands. Like I can take the national retailer usually and show you, you know, two to five other brands that we make and and not all salsas.

16:53.69

vigorbranding

That’s great.

16:59.57

vigorbranding

Mm

17:00.60

Doug Renfro

You know, we we’re acidified foods, condiments, so we can do cheese in a jar, which God didn’t mean to happen. um barbecue sauce, relish, you know, sauces.

17:12.54

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic. That’s very cool. um So I mean, the flavor thing, again, is brilliant. And I love all the different combinations and they are delicious. You know, through my career, you know, again, doing CPG for for basically, almost 30 years, I hate to say the agencies around for 33 years, but doing the CPG thing for good, I think 25 years. ah food, um the flavor thing was almost, it almost seems a shortcut because there’s a lot of expense involved in in flavors. But like I remember, okay, that as dumb as this sounds, potato chips. It’s like, you know, ah plain potato chips still sell great, but put flavors in there and we helped many ah snack food brands, currently hers, with a lot of their products and and just adding new flavors all the time.

17:43.66

Doug Renfro

Wow.

17:52.57

vigorbranding

Just the consumer loves it. It gets them excited. We even did it with tuna, which, I mean, adding flavor to tuna, ah you know, and it just, we blew sales out of the water. Now, again, the companies were the the R and&D behind it, but we were like all in for the, the you know, the Sriracha flavored and all the different types of ah tuna flavors. And, you know, for Starkus, and it blew them out and the sales went through the roof.

18:14.72

Doug Renfro

So.

18:17.12

vigorbranding

So, I mean, the, I know R and&D and I know category extensions can be expensive, but I also think there’s a a sort of a hidden ah marketing excitement. ah It just you know it brings brings energy to the category. And again, when you see your products against across the shelf or those log those those labels across, it’s ah it’s a really impressive uh a lineup i mean how how you mean i do i obviously probably feel the same where you wouldn’t have so many but i mean yeah i’m sure you’re torn like do we want another skew do we not want another skew can you talk a little just a little bit about that

18:51.01

Doug Renfro

Yeah, it’s challenging because everything in life, usually the 80-20 rule works and ours, you know, we have 28 current Renfro SKUs, the top four do have the sales, you know, the top seven or 70% of the sales.

19:01.36

vigorbranding

huh

19:03.24

Doug Renfro

So you’re like, well, why don’t we just cut the rest of them because people want variety and the people who want those second tier items. It’s funny on our online platforms, those will be our best sellers because they’re so hard to get and the people don’t care what it costs. They just want it so badly.

19:16.56

vigorbranding

Right.

19:17.79

Doug Renfro

and But and you know no matter what you do, I don’t care if you have another 10 fantastic skews, the top four or five are going to be half your sales.

19:24.24

vigorbranding

That’s right.

19:26.20

Doug Renfro

If you go to a farmer’s market and they got like 30 kinds of jelly, you’ll inevitably find that two or three do most of the sales. But they they get attention. People come over there because they want to taste you know coconut marmalade, but they end up buying peach. you

19:40.92

vigorbranding

Right, right, right, right. Well, I think I heard you say that the mango habanero is number two. What’s what’s number one?

19:47.21

Doug Renfro

of habanero, though the one I was told internally would never sell much because it was so hot, but it’d be cute to have.

19:53.27

vigorbranding

Wow.

19:53.65

Doug Renfro

think It’s been number one for over 15 years and I can’t eat it. i Most of the things that are best sellers that I’ve created and when I create for Renfro, my cousins get votes in our sales director. If it’s non Renfro, the customer rules or I’ll make up something. but for rent bro i I first cook with Microsoft Excel because it we line price. It doesn’t matter how good it is if we lose money on it because I can’t charge more on just one item. So first I pre-cook it in Excel and if it’s going to work financially, then I i do what I think is good. and Then I bring in my cousins and a lot of like on the craft beer, we were about ready to take it to New York.

20:31.12

Doug Renfro

for the big show and I was like, it’s just kind of bland. And then my cousin Becky was like, yeah, it’s, they need something.

20:36.20

vigorbranding

Mm hmm, mm hmm.

20:36.98

Doug Renfro

So I threw in Guajillo, Ancho and Chipotle in small amounts. It’s kind of a mid range. And we’re like, she’s like, yeah, that’s better. And then James might think it needs to be chunkier who runs production and our sales director might have an opinion. And so it, you know, it is a village situation, but you’re right. Right now we’re like, oh, it gives me a headache to think about another skew. Cause how much could it sell? Your home runs are about one a decade.

21:00.63

vigorbranding

yeah Yeah. So you you said something very interesting there. And again, being in a CPG world, I have experience with that whole line pricing thing. So if I can ask, like I’ll say it this way. We had a client we worked with for, oh boy, we built the brand. It was probably a good 18 years and it was Turkey Hill Ice Cream. And Turkey Hill, like most brands, had a line price. But there was an awful lot of a difference in cost to make vanilla ice cream versus, let’s say, ah like a rainforest crunch or anything with nuts and stuff. Because the expense of those nuts, and and people don’t realize that.

21:32.10

Doug Renfro

Right.

21:33.41

vigorbranding

They just think it’s, oh, it’s two for $5. Or, oh, the price went up. Or it’s 89 cents more. But they they don’t realize. that one flavor to another flavor could be a huge difference and in in the cost to make it. um do you run I mean, I have to imagine you run into that to a degree. And ah you know is that something you have to deal with?

21:52.47

Doug Renfro

and and Absolutely. I think we lost money on every jar of raspberry chipotle we sold last year. Fortunately, we didn’t sell many. but yeah Raspberry is an item that the price goes wildly up and down, fluctuates like crazy. and Most things don’t. they They go up slowly or they sit still. but Our craft beer salsa, we don’t make as much money on it, but it’s fabulous and tastes great. But yeah would I be thrilled if everybody just bought mild all day long? Absolutely. I could get a new car.

22:23.33

vigorbranding

Yeah, there you go.

22:23.47

Doug Renfro

i myself And that is that is exactly the challenging aspect. Blackberry Serrano, you know making that worthy of the name, I get really annoyed when I go to a restaurant. They got a tomatillo pecan, you know smoked watermelon sauce, and all I can taste is salt. I want i want everything on the label to be tastable, but you can’t afford always to do that as much as you’d like without losing money.

22:39.89

vigorbranding

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. That’s ah well yeah that’s ah that’s the the the the difficult part of, I’ll say, what you guys do. And that’s that’s putting product ah quality product in ah in a container. Whatever your your product is. It could be ice cream, salsa. It could be potato chips. It can be candy. it’s just the the The flavoring, you can do it. But there’s always these these cost constraints, that line pricing thing. and And then there’s the evil empires of the retailers, right? so

23:12.03

Doug Renfro

It’s a delicate dance.

23:12.91

vigorbranding

but its It is a delicate dance and I don’t i don’t envy you. so But hey, you sent us a bunch of salsa, so like we’ve had a lot of parties at Proven Group, and ah but we’re gonna have our first salsa party coming up, so we’re pretty excited about that. um But as we know, um you you have recipes throughout the thing, so ah your salsas aren’t just for tortilla chips.

23:29.66

Doug Renfro

the

23:33.46

vigorbranding

You have tons of recipes on your website that you salsa.

23:33.90

Doug Renfro

right

23:37.31

vigorbranding

um So we’ll have some fun.

23:37.41

Doug Renfro

ye

23:38.43

vigorbranding

I’m gonna i’m gonna name a few recipes from your site that use salsa. And you can tell me if you’ve tried it and what you thought of it. Ready to roll?

23:46.76

Doug Renfro

Ready.

23:47.46

vigorbranding

All right, we have the Molten Chili Chocolate Brownie with raspberry chipotle salsa.

23:54.46

Doug Renfro

That came out of a wine pairing dinner. I thought it was and a winery owner and we’re a charity event and I thought she was inebriated and they She would sober up later. No, she flew us out there and had her chef and they had like 80 people bought tickets and they paired a Renfro item with every course. And for dessert, they they used the raspberry chipotle. I think they blended it with maybe raspberries and sugar also. But ah on chocolate, that did pair nicely.

24:19.34

vigorbranding

Yeah, ah that’s interesting.

24:19.62

Doug Renfro

yeah

24:21.07

vigorbranding

and But that was your most expensive vitamin, so maybe you don’t want to sell too many of those brownies, right?

24:24.76

Doug Renfro

ah please Yeah, please don’t buy too much of it.

24:29.31

vigorbranding

Alright, meatloaf with craft beer salsa.

24:33.21

Doug Renfro

I have not had that. I have had it with the roasted salsa, which has a really strong mesquite aspect to it.

24:39.53

vigorbranding

Nice. ah Grilled, and this is also a delicious ah one of your products, but grilled peach salsa chicken with a pe with ah with a peach salsa.

24:48.11

Doug Renfro

yeah Back in the day when we still had to demo at the booth, that was our go-to.

24:51.39

vigorbranding

Uh-huh.

24:52.21

Doug Renfro

And and it’s funny, people think they’re cooking. If you say, put a jar of peach salsa in a baggie, throw in the chicken breast, put it in the fridge for an hour or two, then grill it. They think they’re like a gourmet chef. um And it tastes delicious.

25:03.30

vigorbranding

Yep.

25:04.91

Doug Renfro

You can reserve some. ah It’ll caramelize on the grill, and then you can reserve like a third of it and pour it over just as you serve it.

25:07.79

vigorbranding

Mm

25:10.15

Doug Renfro

And that is delicious and crazy simple.

25:10.85

vigorbranding

-hmm. Yeah, that’s great. I mean, a very good friend of mine owns a company called Gazebo salad dressing, and he sells way more salad dressing as a marinade than he does as a salad dressing. And it’s really, truly a salad dressing, but people find figured out that you know marinating in this in these products, and I’m sure your products are are phenomenal for that.

25:32.84

Doug Renfro

And I love any recipe that’s take a whole jar and use it.

25:35.06

vigorbranding

Right. That’s right. That’s right.

25:36.98

Doug Renfro

No tablespoon recipes.

25:38.73

vigorbranding

Yeah.

25:38.89

Doug Renfro

yeah

25:39.37

vigorbranding

Yeah. He he realized that early on. It’s like, well, you know, the more, especially guys, right? Guys are grilling. So what do they do? They dump the whole jar to your point, you know, we’re not, we’re not going to spare anything.

25:45.50

Doug Renfro

Absolutely. sister yeah

25:47.93

vigorbranding

So that’s, that’s the perfect consumer right there.

25:48.64

Doug Renfro

yeah

25:50.55

vigorbranding

All right. spag Spicy spaghetti sauce with medium salsa.

25:54.72

Doug Renfro

I don’t recall having that. I think we i think my cousin Becky pre-cooked everything before we would let it be on a label back and when we started doing this. I i probably sampled it, but she’s our ah she she cooks as my wife does too. ah gee They’re both excellent cooks and will actually whip these things up. I’m gluten-free too, but my wife can find gluten-free pasta to put that on.

26:16.82

vigorbranding

There you go.

26:16.93

Doug Renfro

I’ll tell her Michael said we had to taste it.

26:18.85

vigorbranding

There you go. That’s it. That’s it. So the last one is Mexican fudge with green jalapeno salsa. This one isn’t a chocolate fudge, it’s more of a cheese.

26:27.63

Doug Renfro

yeah When I came back 32 years ago, that was the only recipe we had, and it’s still the most popular. My aunt came up with that, interestingly. and it’s It’s cheddar cheese, eggs, and green salsa, and you just add more green salsa if you want it spicier, and you you put it in a pan, you throw it in the oven for 40 minutes, you go get ready for the party, whatever, take it out, slice it up, put it on triskets or whatever, and people love it. It’s gone, especially when it’s warm, and you serve it that way. ah We call it cowboy cobbler. I mean, there’s a million things, but it’s just three ingredients. like Even I can’t screw it up.

27:01.20

vigorbranding

Now you said that that when you do R and&D, it’s your cousins get involved, but you also said like the the really hot, you can’t eat. Like that’s for, is that your palette? Is it just, you don’t really like super spicy or how does that work?

27:10.80

Doug Renfro

It hurts.

27:14.06

Doug Renfro

My assistant, it’s ah my R and&D guru that I’ve got working with me now the last few years. He’ll make me occasionally do a cutting of like ghost pepper case. So in the morning, I’m like, really? That’s my breakfast. And with ghost pepper, habanero, Carolina Reaper, I can taste two or three, four samples. And I’m done for a few hours because then I’m torched and I can’t distinguish anything different.

27:33.60

vigorbranding

Right.

27:37.32

Doug Renfro

Fortunately, I don’t have to very often when we’re coming up with something. um You know, I created a ah special ah triple hot reaper for a business group you and I are in and I tasted that till I couldn’t see my feet and then we said, okay, it must be fine.

27:53.90

vigorbranding

Well, that’s fantastic. So tell me, before we wrap up, like what’s next for Renfro Foods? i mean Can you share any details about what you’re cooking up for the future? Anything you’re excited about? Anything that’s going on in the company or in the family?

28:07.24

Doug Renfro

Yeah, that’s always a frustrating thing about doing so much private label and co-pack and food services. I can’t talk about most of it, but it’s really cool. We’re we’re doing things for people like ah the dairy-free queso, you know, that’s nut-based, the things that my 87-year-old father is like, what?

28:22.27

vigorbranding

me

28:26.19

Doug Renfro

That’s what my grandparents wouldn’t have known. ah We do ethnic sauces. We were always reinvesting in the plant. my My dad, my late uncle, my grandparents taught us don’t ever milk the company. So we doubled our shipping warehouse two years ago. We added a brand new two story production employee break room with QA and production offices above it. We automated some more things on the food service line. We’re always reinvesting. We’re always looking, you know, for the future we’re doing licensing agreements with other brands where we handle the marketing for them and you’ll see if yeah you’re gonna be in the new york show i think you’ll see another brand in our booth that i can talk about then.

28:55.96

vigorbranding

Awesome.

28:59.33

vigorbranding

Yep.

29:04.36

vigorbranding

Super. That’s awesome. I mean, congratulations on all the success. and I mean, you’re, you’re a great president. You’re always very self-deprecating. Absolutely hilarious. Lots of fun. And I think that just, it sort of just, you represent the brand in my mind and in a lot, in all the positive ways, you know, and I would love to see you put a wig on and and try and emulate your camera. That would be, ah that would be fantastic.

29:23.97

Doug Renfro

maybe yeah yeah

29:25.99

vigorbranding

That’s how you should work the booth. You should be Mrs. Renfro. So,

29:28.46

Doug Renfro

like

29:29.43

vigorbranding

All right, so I have one last question I asked this from every guest and it can’t be your product if you had one final meal What would you eat? Maybe where and why?

29:40.36

Doug Renfro

Well, I forgot the can’t do your problems. You gotta start with chips and salsa. And frankly, I do eat lots of people’s salsa. It’s it’s experimentation, but also, you know, I always ask people, you think the donut shop guy eats a donut every day? You know, you want to change it up. ah for lunch ah For the entree, I think I’d have chicken tikka masala. My wife and I have become big fans of of Indian food and eating it around the world. I would say one of the places in London, I think it’s Rick Road that has all their Indian restaurants.

30:05.10

vigorbranding

Nice.

30:06.18

Doug Renfro

And then Grand Marnier Soufflé for dessert. It’s one of those things that’s too hard to make at home, but most so hard that it’s hard to find it. There’s a French restaurant locally. I can get it like occasionally and that, now those don’t go together, but you said final meal, so it doesn’t matter.

30:20.00

vigorbranding

That’s it. Final meal. Yeah, that’s what you got to do. That’s fantastic.

30:23.12

Doug Renfro

ah

30:23.48

vigorbranding

Well, Doug, thank you very much.

30:24.20

Doug Renfro

yeah

30:25.29

vigorbranding

I look forward to, I know you’re doing ah an event in in in Fort Worth ah for all of us. um That’ll be fantastic. And I will see you at Fancy Food.

30:34.95

Doug Renfro

See you there. Thanks again for letting me play.

30:36.83

vigorbranding

All right, pal. Appreciate it.

Burney Jennings is the CEO and president of Biscuitville. Burney took over the leadership reins from his father and founder of Biscuitville Maurice Jennings in 1996. Burney’s bold leadership, vision and keen sense of knowing what customers want has contributed to the company’s growth and success. 

Headquartered in Greensboro, North Carolina, Biscuitville Fresh Southern is a family-owned company serving authentic Southern food made fresh daily from locally sourced ingredients. Known as the Home of the Biscuit Window Since 1966, Biscuitville serves scratch-made biscuits baked fresh every 15 minutes. 

Biscuitville employs over 2,400 people and operates more than 70 restaurants in North Carolina, Virginia and South Carolina. In July 2023, Biscuitville was voted the nation’s Best Fast Food Breakfast & Best Regional Fast Food restaurant in the 2023 USA Today Readers’ Choice 10Best contest. 

Burney’s father inherited his mother’s famous biscuit recipe after his ailing mother gave him a choice of his inheritance – the recipe or the farm. Burney’s father chose the recipe and the rest is history. 

Biscuitville has stood out from the competition for not working with food delivery services like Uber Eats and GrubHub. According to Burney, the decision was based on several factors including the inability to accommodate to-go orders because the restaurant is so busy. 

Biscuitville has made headlines with its “Life After 2” program in which each of its locations close at 2pm each day. The program allows employees to pursue other interests and spend more time with their families. 

“(My grandmother) gave my dad – since he was the oldest – the choice: My biscuit recipe or the farm. He chose the biscuit recipe.” (Burney)

“The key to a good biscuit is love.” (Burney)

“Growing up, my dad was fascinated by chain restaurants. My dad told me, ‘We all know how to make a McDonald’s hamburger. We know the ingredients. It’s not about the burger, it’s how they do it. It’s the system they put in place. It’s the marketing, it’s the brand, it’s the people, it’s the execution.’” (Burney)

“We started closing at 2pm. Our food quality went up, our food costs went down and our employees are much happier. Now of course, you need to be a morning person. If you’re not a morning person, we’re not a good place for you.” (Burney) 

“We really strive to work with local companies first, and if we can’t be local, we work with family businesses.” (Burney) 

“We’ve been able to differentiate ourselves in the breakfast space because we close at 2pm. People know breakfast is our focus.” (Burney) 

00:00.01

Burney Jennings

I can, this is not too close.

00:04.65

vigorbranding

No, ye you’re perfect.

00:05.35

Burney Jennings

No video? Okay.

00:06.54

vigorbranding

Yep. Okay. You ready to roll?

00:08.75

Burney Jennings

Now I’m ready to roll.

00:10.09

vigorbranding

All right. Welcome, Fork Tales fans. The best biscuits in the world are made in the South, of course. And the best place to buy those biscuits is a restaurant called Biscuitville. Today’s guest is the chairman of bisop but Biscuitville, Bernie Jennings, and we’re going to talk about biscuits, family, and a whole lot more. Bernie, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome, and we’re looking forward to hearing your story.

00:35.38

Burney Jennings

Thank you, Michael. I appreciate you inviting me to your podcast.

00:39.08

vigorbranding

Very cool. So, okay. We’ll start sort of in the beginning here. Your father founded Biscuitville in 1966 and you were raised to eventually take over the reins, which you did in 1996. You often joke that your birth date and your higher date are the same date. ah Talk about that a little bit. Talk about the start and how you got into the business and how you were raised basically in the business.

01:03.01

Burney Jennings

Sure, so I feel like I was born into the business watching my dad as an entrepreneur, um you know, try different things in the restaurant business. He started out with, you know, really a bread store um and he was selling day-old bread and um through his travels and he was also selling flour as not flowers as in roses but flour um by the train carload um and he saw pizza and he thought that was a pretty neat concept so he started a concept called pizza to go

01:28.83

vigorbranding

Wow.

01:35.86

Burney Jennings

I eventually added biscuits in the morning because it was of as in a slow day part to no day part. And to make a long story short, change the name to Pizzaville. The biscuits were doing really well. I said, but let me just see if I can make a go at a biscuit concept without the pizza. and opened up one in downtown Danville, Virginia called it Biscuitville and the story goes on from there. Eventually converted all the pizzavills over to Biscuitvilles and we’ve been growing ever since. But to answer your question, watching my dad go through that and I remember yeah he used to do his own training videos and

02:15.96

Burney Jennings

yeah middle of the night, yeah know I fell asleep at about 1130 and he woke me up at 630 in the morning when they were doing the videos and I just feel like I grew grew up in the business. um But you know how did I get into the business?

02:27.33

vigorbranding

That.

02:31.64

Burney Jennings

um I call myself a late bloomer. I didn’t know what I wanted to do when I was growing up. I didn’t know if I wanted to be in the restaurant business, in the real estate business, oh just didn’t know. So when I got out of college, I started working for my dad doing odds and end jobs and eventually worked my way into a restaurant we called, what we had called the cutting board, which was a steakhouse in Burlington. um From that started managing a Pizzaville restaurant. And you know from that went over to the Biscuitville side and really worked every department in the company.

03:08.55

Burney Jennings

um I didn’t run all the departments, but I got an exposure to that. And around 1996, my dad made me president of the company. But it wasn’t like I set out to the be in it.

03:17.62

vigorbranding

Wow.

03:22.29

Burney Jennings

But once I started getting a taste of it, I loved it.

03:25.85

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. So like I have a rule like for my daughters, ah not that they’re interested whatsoever in what I’m doing ever, but if they want to get into the business, my my rule was you have to work somewhere for two years and get one promotion. Did you guys have anything like that?

03:40.12

Burney Jennings

Right.

03:41.12

vigorbranding

Or is there any kind of rules that you set up that way or anything you know to that to that thing? Or is it just a coincidence? It just happened happened to work out.

03:48.73

Burney Jennings

It just happened to work out for me. However, I also learned that rule. having you know I have four kids. One of them does work in the company, my oldest son, Blake, and he had to do the same thing. He worked about five or six years outside of our business before he joined us. And his skillset is real estate development, did that in Washington, DC in Raleigh. But I think that’s really important, joining a family business to have that outside experience before joining.

04:12.40

vigorbranding

Mmhmm.

04:18.74

Burney Jennings

And I’m sure I would have benefited from it.

04:19.01

vigorbranding

Amen. Yeah, well, and you know, look, we I talked to a lot of folks that are part of family businesses and, you know, it’s it’s awesome, right? yeah And there’s there’s nothing more important than family, right?

04:29.60

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

04:30.37

vigorbranding

and but But family owned businesses, I mean, it can be it can be a difficult run. I mean, you know, there’s we we, you and I certainly know of a lot of of of of family businesses where there’s turmoil and problems. So ah to navigate that, I think it’s good to have those rules set up out front and And you gotta abide by them, right? I mean, it’s ah it’s an important thing.

04:49.95

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

04:51.07

vigorbranding

So now, is your son, is he going to be, I mean, what is his role right now?

04:56.05

Burney Jennings

He does a real estate development work, yeah repair which would include the construction repairs and maintenance site selection.

04:57.93

vigorbranding

Okay.

05:03.21

vigorbranding

Mm-hmm.

05:03.88

Burney Jennings

I mean, that’s that’s his job.

05:07.45

vigorbranding

Yeah, which is not nothing, because you have how many locations? Like 50 plus, right?

05:10.79

Burney Jennings

Yeah, we’re about 79 locations a day with four under construction.

05:13.16

vigorbranding

Wow. Okay. Wow. Jeez.

05:16.06

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

05:16.19

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic. So yeah I want to take it back to the beginning because I love, I always say there’s always these great stories, right? So I love this story. Your ailing grandmother called her grandsons to her bedside, which had been your father, asked them to choose their inheritance.

05:28.11

Burney Jennings

Right?

05:31.03

vigorbranding

So you want to tell that story?

05:33.05

Burney Jennings

Yeah, so he she gave my dad since he was the oldest on the choice between the biscuit recipe or the farm and he chose the biscuit recipe and my brother might hit my uncle which was his brother got the farm.

05:49.20

vigorbranding

So how did the farm work out? I mean, is was he happy with that trade?

05:51.52

Burney Jennings

You know, I say my dad, and and I think it’s just a great story. Interestingly enough, um my uncle used to ask me, where’s the farm? He was he he still was looking for the farm. um it’s eastern east and My grandparents lived in eastern Tennessee, in a great area.

06:09.33

vigorbranding

Okay.

06:11.84

Burney Jennings

In fact, there’s a Jennings Cemetery there, lots of Jennings there.

06:14.51

vigorbranding

Wow.

06:17.11

vigorbranding

Wow. So, so the farm does exist.

06:17.94

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

06:19.03

vigorbranding

Your uncle got the farm. Did he ever, was your uncle ever a part of the business?

06:20.61

Burney Jennings

Yeah. Um, so when we look at the business side, I mentioned early on that my dad was a flower salesman.

06:28.81

vigorbranding

Yep.

06:28.91

Burney Jennings

Um, that was with, that was something that his dad or my grandfather, this is my grandfather had. And that’s a business. My uncle, who was a younger brother took over when my dad got into restaurant business.

06:40.71

vigorbranding

Gotcha.

06:42.31

Burney Jennings

My uncle did the flower business.

06:45.72

vigorbranding

That’s funny.

06:46.46

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

06:46.48

vigorbranding

Does a farm in Tennessee still exist?

06:49.04

Burney Jennings

No, I mean, that yeah, it exists, but it’s not family owned anymore.

06:50.00

vigorbranding

Okay.

06:52.36

vigorbranding

Not in a family. That’s funny.

06:53.42

Burney Jennings

Yeah. Yeah.

06:55.24

vigorbranding

So I guess without giving away the secret recipe, the thing that that your father chose, what’s what’s the key to a good biscuit?

06:55.37

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

07:03.02

Burney Jennings

Yeah, so my dad was very, very practical. And I’ll answer the question, the key to the good bisits the key to a good biscuit is love. And what I mean by that is growing up, my um yeah my dad was fascinated with chain restaurants. And he he told me, look, we all know how to make a McDonald’s hamburger. We know the ingredients. It’s not about the McDonald’s hamburger. It’s how they do it. It’s the system they put in place. It’s the marketing. It’s the brand. It’s the it’s a people. It’s the execution. He said, so yeah when when we look at making a good biscuit,

07:44.93

Burney Jennings

It’s pretty simple ingredients. It’s self-rising flour, shortening, and buttermilk.

07:50.23

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

07:50.31

Burney Jennings

It’s what do you do with it? How do you market it? How are, you know, it’s a friendliness. How do you make the people who are buying it feel special? So I call it love. It’s that’s how you make a good biscuit.

07:59.82

vigorbranding

Yep.

08:02.26

vigorbranding

Yeah. Well, you know, bra I’ve known you for a long time and you’re very engaging and you can it’s amazing because it’s I can tell you care. and And you know, people might be listening saying, okay, right, you make it with love.

08:10.06

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

08:12.71

vigorbranding

But like family, not just your family, your company, you see your company as a family. And I think that whole, that passion and that caring for people really, really comes through.

08:17.61

Burney Jennings

Right.

08:22.62

vigorbranding

And I think I commend you for that. And ah I mean, I just think that’s an ah it’s an amazing attribute to you and your company.

08:29.06

Burney Jennings

Well, thank you.

08:30.68

vigorbranding

So Biscuitville has made some great headlines in recent years for going against industry trends. And I’m i’m always impressed by things like this. It’s hard to stand by, I’ll say, you’re your your beliefs, if you will, and you know i mean from just being open for breakfast ah you know to to you know all the other things that you that you do and that you keep sacred, I guess. um So the one of the huge trends, obviously, especially since COVID was ah third party delivery services like Uber Eats, DoorDash, and Grubhub. um you You are not working with them, is that correct?

09:05.54

Burney Jennings

That is correct. Yeah, I can expand.

09:07.88

vigorbranding

what And the thinking there? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

09:09.57

Burney Jennings

Yeah,

09:10.23

vigorbranding

i’d like to yeah I want to hear a little bit about thinking there because i’ I’m intrigued.

09:14.03

Burney Jennings

yeah so it’s it’s several things. One, um we have worked on our packaging so our food can travel well. um An example in in in the restaurant business is french fries. How do you keep a french fry hot and fresh for 20 minutes while it’s going from your restaurant to to be delivered?

09:30.01

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

09:35.33

Burney Jennings

So our biscuits are best eaten fresh. um When we look at our business, we’re opened basically eight and a half hours a day, 5.30 to 2 in the afternoon. And we do a lot of business in a short period of timeframe and getting to go order like an Uber Eats order on a 930 on a Saturday done workforce because we’re having trouble. you know, taking care of those guests that are in front of us. um yeah Chipotle, I think, has done a really good job in their restaurants of making a second makeup line just for to-go orders so that it doesn’t mess up their dining.

10:15.27

Burney Jennings

With us, we we we have the dining room and we have the drive-through. Drive-throughs went from pre-COVID around 63% of sales to now 75% of sales.

10:26.94

vigorbranding

Wow.

10:27.69

Burney Jennings

It does seem to be coming off a little bit, but it’s holding holding in that number. um So we’re doing a tremendous amount of business in a short period of time and it’s part of a capacity issue of how do you fit those orders in. So it’s on our radar.

10:42.93

vigorbranding

Mmhmm.

10:45.08

Burney Jennings

I think we’ll end up solving the packaging and solving some of the back of house stuff but for right now it’s not it’s not top of mind for us.

10:53.42

vigorbranding

Well, and again, you know, going back to to like what I was saying earlier about you and the way you, ah your personality, everything, you know, you say you make these biscuits with love. Well, you’re not, you you refuse to sell them ah through a delivery service because it’s not about the delivery service, per se, it’s more about like the quality of the product that they’re going to get at the end of the day. And at the end of the day, that’s your brand, right? I mean, your Biscuitville and, you know, you don’t want to have, a you you don’t want to to have um anything happen to that product that diminishes the the experience, the consumer experience.

11:13.52

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

11:20.02

Burney Jennings

Right.

11:23.16

Burney Jennings

and I agree. And I like those delivery services. I use them my so my myself.

11:26.72

vigorbranding

Yep.

11:28.08

Burney Jennings

It is definitely not about the delivery service. They’re doing a great job in providing ah a good service.

11:33.84

vigorbranding

Yep. The other thing, and i’m I’m curious about this too, because again, I commend you for it. So I’m not, well, by no means am I questioning it, but 5.30 a.m. ah to closing at two, I mean, you know, again, most most restaurants out there be like, okay, well, that’s great for them.

11:41.49

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

11:47.45

vigorbranding

What are we gonna do for the the you know lunch? You know, we’re gonna make this, we’re gonna make that. What about dinner? We’re gonna make this, we’re gonna make that. I mean, everyone would try and open up as many day parts as he absolutely humanly could. And look at some of the different QSRs, like I’ll say, like McDonald’s. I mean, they’re they’re in the basic dessert business, they’re in the coffee business, they’re in the whatever the next trend du jour is.

12:05.27

Burney Jennings

Right.

12:08.55

vigorbranding

how How hard was it for you to stay sort of, ah for lack of a word, true to yourself and just do this this morning, 5.30 a.m. to closing it to?

12:17.24

Burney Jennings

Yeah, so we started out open till eight o’clock at night. We had bone-on chicken.

12:20.36

vigorbranding

Okay.

12:21.92

Burney Jennings

um We added vegetables. and We had a lot of different products. And to make a long story short, from about one o’clock in the afternoon till 5.30, it was pretty much dead.

12:33.71

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

12:33.98

Burney Jennings

And when you’re in the quick service business, people want a great product that’s fresh. And you can imagine how it’s difficult it is to do that when you really don’t have much business between one and 530.

12:41.66

vigorbranding

Yep.

12:49.41

Burney Jennings

And this was before snacking, you know, the snacking concept and the coffee concepts and people, you know, going to a restaurant um in mid afternoon really existed.

12:53.51

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

13:00.21

Burney Jennings

So we dropped that day part, started closing it too. um Our food quality went up, our food costs went down, and our employees were much happier.

13:11.53

vigorbranding

Mm

13:11.84

Burney Jennings

So now we call it when we’re hiring, it’s called life after two. So we use that as a selling point to hire people. Now of course you need to be a morning person. If you’re not a morning person, We’re not a good place. We’re not a good place for you. um You definitely need to be a morning person. um So that means I’d say the majority of our management team is geared towards closing it to being at home with their family, having worked out if they do have a family who’s going to take care of those kids in the morning so they can be there in the afternoon.

13:37.79

vigorbranding

hmm.

13:46.54

Burney Jennings

It’s a big decision staying open later and how many people are you going to lose because that’s not what they signed up for.

13:46.59

vigorbranding

Yeah.

13:53.07

vigorbranding

That’s right. And that’s very smart of you to look around the corner because let’s face it. I mean, I love that that life after two. I think that’s super smart. I mean, and again, I say this because knowing you for a while, I could tell that like company culture, you treat everything like family and that whole life after two plays right into that.

14:06.26

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

14:08.75

vigorbranding

So it’s not a It’s not another gimmick or it’s not a, well, we you know we got we got to worry about our employees. It’s something you’ve always done.

14:14.95

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

14:15.45

vigorbranding

and and Candidly, I think that’s reflected in the quality of the product. you say you The biscuits are made with love. I think that’s what you know people sign up for this life after two and they’re they’re’re they’re dedicated to you and your brand and the family. i think that’s ah I think that’s very commendable and something I think people try to build or create later, but you’ve always sort of had that incorporated, haven’t you?

14:36.98

Burney Jennings

Right.

14:38.19

vigorbranding

So, okay, three quarters of your sales come from drive-through customers. That’s in line with most of the fast food industry, which is around 70.

14:41.54

Burney Jennings

Yes.

14:45.17

vigorbranding

Last year you opened your first drive-through only location. Do you see a lot of potential for more drive-throughs? Is that like maybe the future? ah Or is it still in the test and learn phase?

14:56.76

Burney Jennings

Yes, in the test and learn phase, um we opened up eight restaurants last year. All of them had a dining room, except for that one. That is a test location. And then the next eight, we were planning on the the dining room. We found the dining room does add to our return on investment. And we got 25% of our guests coming in into the dining room. Now, about 10% of them are taking it to go, but another 15 are staying in the dining room. So we see it as something here to say, here to stay.

15:24.63

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

15:27.23

vigorbranding

Okay. Good. Good. So what do you think? What’s the best thing on your menu? Other than the biscuit? I think that’d be the obvious answer.

15:33.01

Burney Jennings

ah my my favorite is so My favorite is sausage, egg, and cheese with sc with scrambled egg.

15:34.25

vigorbranding

What do you think?

15:37.33

vigorbranding

Oh, there you go. ah Perfect.

15:39.76

Burney Jennings

You know, our our sausage is made by Swaggerty. It’s a third, and I think getting ready to go on a fourth generation family business out of Servirville, Tennessee, which is right by Dollywood.

15:46.88

vigorbranding

Wow.

15:50.29

vigorbranding

Uh huh.

15:50.62

Burney Jennings

um And, you know, I didn’t mention it early on, but we really strive to go with local companies first. And if we can’t be local, We want them to be family business doesn’t always work out that way, but you know a fourth generation family business for our sausage, a third or fourth generation for baking bacon coming out of um Ohio. um yeah Our helm is made locally you know in Wiltsboro. Um, yeah, it’s that, that local or family is really important.

16:21.46

Burney Jennings

Oh, and we decided community coffee about three years ago and they’re in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

16:25.31

vigorbranding

Very cool. Yep.

16:28.26

Burney Jennings

Great, great family business.

16:30.10

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. Very cool.

16:31.05

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

16:31.56

vigorbranding

Well, you know, it’s like, you you know, some of the things are like the shift to drive-throughs and then, you know, take out.

16:38.39

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

16:38.47

vigorbranding

And, you know, I mean, that, that happened. COVID really, you know, moved a lot of that along fast. You know, like we see things like Pizza Hut’s practically eliminating dine in, but it really feels like the Biscuitville brand and just sort of the way you feel about family and the folks. It feels like the dine-in is here to stay as far as Biscuitville, right? i mean that’s like It feels like that’s a it’s a really integral part of your brand and and your your brand promise and the the love, the fresh and all that kind of thing.

16:58.74

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

17:05.66

Burney Jennings

No, it is. Yeah. Have no, no, no plans on changing it. And even it you when we look at this drive through only um test, that’s a concept that we would put on a smaller site where we couldn’t fit a restaurant with a dining room, but we want, we definitely wanted to be in that market.

17:27.96

vigorbranding

Yeah, that makes total sense.

17:28.74

Burney Jennings

So we we to to us, that’s an add-on, not a replacement.

17:29.00

vigorbranding

and Yeah, absolutely.

17:32.16

Burney Jennings

but Yes.

17:33.48

vigorbranding

So you’ve got more than 70 locations, as you mentioned, in the Carolinas and Virginia, which is ah a lot of restaurants in a, I’ll say not a small area, but a tight, tight, tight footprint.

17:41.34

Burney Jennings

Right.

17:43.47

vigorbranding

All of your locations are company owned, no franchisees. ah That gives you a lot of control of the brand, the product. and But does does that does that limit growth for you as well? And talk about the the idea of not franchising versus franchising and the benefits.

17:57.73

Burney Jennings

Sure, let’s go with the first one, the growth. ah We just moved into South Carolina two years ago and that’s a big part of our growth.

18:04.29

vigorbranding

Nice.

18:07.28

Burney Jennings

um are Three years ago, all of our restaurants were within the two-hour drive of Greensboro, North Carolina, which is our headquarters. Now we’re in about a three and a half hour drive. So we just opened up in Columbia, South Carolina, in Florence, in Harpsville, and one in Neuber, North Carolina. um The growth rate is limited. I mean, the being company owned limits your growth rate.

18:31.08

vigorbranding

Mhm.

18:31.28

Burney Jennings

We don’t have an unlimited supply of cash and equity to grow. So you can only grow as fast as the money that you’re borrow able to borrow or the money you’re able to put into it.

18:36.86

vigorbranding

Right.

18:44.16

vigorbranding

Right.

18:44.52

Burney Jennings

um You could certainly grow faster having private equity come in and buy a big stake, but just not interested in going down that path.

18:48.70

vigorbranding

Mhm.

18:53.37

Burney Jennings

another growth Another way to grow faster is the franchising model, something I have zero experience with. We may do that one day, but right now um where we want to own it and control it, and you mentioned it earlier, we feel like it gives us a lot more control over um the operations piece.

19:16.52

vigorbranding

I think it does and I think that, and um look, we have a lot of brands that are franchised and it’s great and they’re smart business models, but but just again, going back to like how you feel about it. And you know, you said your biscuits, I love it. In the be beginning, they’re made with love. Well, there has to be an extreme amount of control there. So you’re not willing to just ship them out and into through a delivery service for quality sake.

19:35.75

Burney Jennings

right

19:40.16

vigorbranding

You’re not willing to just sell your your your brand to other people and put it in their hands you know with the fear that maybe it won’t be up to the to your standards. I think there’s a whole lot of ah things that you’re doing or you’re choosing not to do that are actually making you successful. I think that’s really commendable.

19:55.96

Burney Jennings

yeah but Thank you.

19:55.98

vigorbranding

I think it’s very difficult to do because you know business is business, right? And like you know it’s about it’s about revenue and growth and all that. So I commend you for kind of sticking to your guns, if you will, and and doing things the way you do it. um So yeah last year Biscuit Fills voted best fast food breakfast in the u and in a USA Today readers poll. that’s That’s huge and congratulations on that.

20:16.39

Burney Jennings

right Thank you.

20:17.83

vigorbranding

So we’re seeing a lot of the fast food breakfast wars and and they’ve been raging for a long time. Everyone’s kind of getting into it ah and the that’s a huge win for you. do you what What do you attribute that to that win? So you’re up against all this competition. You guys are voted number one.

20:32.80

Burney Jennings

Yeah, for us, um in fact, every now and then I’m talking to somebody and they get us confused with Chick-fil-A. And by the way, we’re not Chick-fil-A. It’s a different concept, but they go they think we’re closing on Sundays.

20:46.25

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

20:46.27

Burney Jennings

it’s yeah we are we’ve put us We have worked hard to put us into a premium QSR category.

20:54.35

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

20:55.03

Burney Jennings

So when we look at how we compare ourselves, certainly we’re comparing, um we do competitionensation competition shopping with Chick-fil-A, Bojangles, McDonald’s, and Hardee’s.

21:07.89

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

21:07.96

Burney Jennings

And those are really the core ones in our market. But when we look at our pricing and the quality of the ingredients we’re using, We want to make sure we’re using better ingredients than they are. Now, granted, an egg is an egg is an egg. you can’t yeah You can’t do anything different there, but you can do something different with your bacon, with your sausage, with the, you know, using a center cut ham. um yeah the The chicken, like our chicken, is the Springer Mountain Farms label, which is what you see in high-end restaurants.

21:36.08

vigorbranding

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

21:42.29

Burney Jennings

It costs us more money, but that’s important to us because we think it’s a better product. And when you yeah when you have what we think, really which we know is a better product, you gotta charge a premium price for that. So when we look at our pricing, it’s not gonna be the same. You put our pricing up against any of the people we competition shop with, I tell our folks, it better be higher. It better be more expensive because we’re spending more money than they are putting that product in front of the guests.

22:04.64

vigorbranding

Right.

22:10.85

vigorbranding

Absolutely. so we’re like ah There’s obviously a consistent thread here as far as quality. ah Working with family-owned businesses.

22:18.86

Burney Jennings

Yes.

22:19.09

vigorbranding

ah you know i’ll say so I’ll say smaller types of companies. how Where did that come from? i mean like Is that all you? i mean Was that something instilled by your father? Where did that sort of dedication to, I’ll say family, quality of life for your employees, and and and and clean ingredients and and and and the like, where did that all come from?

22:39.35

Burney Jennings

Yeah, I’ll give a, it’s a two-part answer. One, on the you know ingredient side, we did some research about 10 years ago, and it was internal and external. And it what we found, and it was just by chance, being a smaller chain and local chain, We had, by chance, been dealing with family-owned businesses and local businesses, and many of our customers knew that, but we didn’t play on it. ah like We didn’t point it out, and we said, wait a minute.

23:16.79

Burney Jennings

This is something if our customers know about it and care about it, there’s probably some who don’t know about it but do care about it. So we we made that part of our strategy on a go-forward basis to really focus on local businesses first and family owned businesses second. And then the second um is is the how we treat our people. I think that’s what you were asking in how we operate in our business.

23:42.88

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

23:47.78

Burney Jennings

Part of that is being a family businesses. I truly believe family businesses approach business and how they treat people different than public companies and different than private equity. So in part of it was my upbringing from my parents on how you treat people and treating people with respect and treating people how you want to be treated. So my team kind of knows this if there’s ever a dilemma when it comes to the people. but be yeah so How do you, if this was you how do you, how would you like to see the answer?

24:19.95

vigorbranding

right

24:20.20

Burney Jennings

And sometimes it’s financially, I mean, it hurts us financially, but it I think we benefit in the long run. So, you know, I try not to be penny wise and pound foolish in making those financial decisions.

24:31.67

vigorbranding

yeah

24:34.34

vigorbranding

I have a strong constitution when it comes to that. I think I really commend you on it.

24:37.00

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

24:37.76

vigorbranding

I think that’s wonderful. um You know, so you’re also voted best regional fast food chain. ah There’s a lot of Southern fast food chains that wanted to win that.

24:46.13

Burney Jennings

Yes.

24:47.59

vigorbranding

Can you talk a little bit about that? Who the competition might have been and you know, why, why, why do you think that you you guys were picked?

24:54.29

Burney Jennings

um you know There were several big operators who the competition might have been, um and I think they’re really good operators, and I’ve already you know i’ve already mentioned them.

25:02.52

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

25:07.43

Burney Jennings

um They got some great franchisees, McDonald’s, Bojangles, Hardee’s, Chick-fil-A.

25:07.67

vigorbranding

Yep.

25:13.23

Burney Jennings

They’re all really, really good competitors and operators. um You know, for us, I think we are able to different differentiate ourselves in the breakfast space because we close it too. And we’ve already talked about that, but people know breakfast is our focus. And I think when you have that type of focus, it does put you ah in a better position to compete in that space.

25:40.12

vigorbranding

amen and you know I’ll say on that focus, and I you know i know that i think you kind of answered this in a different way earlier, but I can’t help as ah as a marketer and an entrepreneur. i mean you know I have one marketing firm that does restaurant marketing, and I have another another marketing firm that does CPG, food and beverage, right two different companies. and you know you think well they are In my mind, they are very different because you know a restaurant is a retail business that just happens to sell food and beverage. and I don’t mean that to take that lightly, but CPG is you know is what it is.

26:06.40

Burney Jennings

Right.

26:10.39

vigorbranding

it’s ah It’s branded food that is sold at at retail, usually at a gro obviously grocery store. so ah Different businesses, different business models, they just happen to both be food and beverage.

26:16.09

Burney Jennings

Right.

26:20.65

vigorbranding

I’ve been seeing over the years a lot of crossover and you you know we have mutual friends that have restaurants on one side, but then they’ve taken their they’re they’ their primary item and they’ve moved it into the grocery chain. And I got to think with with the with the brand that you have at Biscuitville and the reputation, that if if you could figure out a way to package up those biscuits and get them in a grocer’s freezer, I gotta think that’s a home run.

26:44.98

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

26:47.04

vigorbranding

But can you talk a little bit about that? I have a feeling it goes back to, like you were saying, fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh. So can you talk a little bit about that? Have you thought about that? Or is that maybe something on the horizon?

26:57.12

Burney Jennings

If it’s not on the horizon, we have put very little thought into it. It does go back to yeah know the freshness of the product and how it would reflect on the brand. We may do that one day and you know it may be, um you know doing we have we have party biscuits.

27:11.41

vigorbranding

Hm.

27:15.09

Burney Jennings

yeah We used to call them silver dollar. They’re just small biscuits that you’d see third on a platter or passed around around at a party. Something like that would be really good in my opinion, for yeah a freezer section in a grocery store.

27:29.85

vigorbranding

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you see like ah some of the guys that, the you know, some of the folks have done parbake. So ah instead of it being like, for lack of but a better word, just a frozen ingredient built product, they’ll they’ll they’ll go so far as to, you know, partially bake it and then freeze it.

27:41.28

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

27:46.77

vigorbranding

And I think that makes one heck of a ah lot better, fresher product. And so

27:50.44

Burney Jennings

yeah

27:50.83

vigorbranding

there there might That might be ah an opportunity for you. And hey, look, far bring it for me to tell you how to make biscuits. That’s the last thing I’m going to do. But from a marketing standpoint, I mean, boy, I got to tell you, I think you have such a great brand. And it comes down to just because of the fortitude and and really focusing on a ah breakfast segment, the biscuit, a time frame, fresh and making it with love that I think is

28:06.90

Burney Jennings

Yeah. Right.

28:12.43

vigorbranding

Well, that’s what makes great brands. So I think I think that’s awesome.

28:14.41

Burney Jennings

Yeah.

28:15.70

vigorbranding

So I mean, you know, before we go here, like what’s what’s next for Biscuitville? What else? What else? you you For lack of a better word, cooking up. Is there new locations? Are you moving into any new areas? What would what excites you? what’s What’s going on at Biscuitville?

28:29.14

Burney Jennings

You know, it’s the growth. We were a very slow growth company. I wouldn’t call us a fast growths growth company, but the new markets is where we’re focused. You know, South Carolina ah moving into Greenville next year, you know, just expanding in that South Carolina market is really important to us.

28:38.95

vigorbranding

Awesome.

28:48.30

vigorbranding

Yeah that’s excellent and you know I’m a big trends guy I mean you know at Quench we do the food and beverage trends and the restaurant trends I’ve been doing it for I think it’s like 17 years now and I will say I mean you know that that focus

28:48.35

Burney Jennings

Hope to get to Georgia one day, but that’s a good five or six years down the road. Yeah.

29:09.19

vigorbranding

on a product and a focus on a day part. And if just the overall, again, the Constitution you have and the focus that you have and the fortitude you have is what makes brilliant and great brands. So I commend you for it. You check a lot of boxes. I’ll tell you as far as what’s on trend, what consumers want. And I think that’s that’s ah very, very admirable. So I guess keep up keep up the great work.

29:29.37

Burney Jennings

Thank you.

29:31.24

vigorbranding

so So now I have to have a good

29:31.64

Burney Jennings

Thank you, Michael. But you know, hell ah you know, um I do read your material and Quench does a really good job at the market research. I love the presentations you do. They’re exciting, they’re engaging, and they are full of a lot of tidbits of information that I can walk away with. So you guys do a great job with that.

29:51.36

vigorbranding

I appreciate you saying that. That’s very kind. Now before I let you go here, I have one last question. I’m going to, you know, you can’t say one of your biscuits. So it’s got, you got it. I’m going to steer you off your biscuits, right? You don’t have to mention any other brands, but if you had one final meal, What would you eat and why?

30:05.37

Burney Jennings

Hmm One final meal my wife makes the best pepperoni pizza And I’ve had a lot of pepperoni pizza, especially since you know growing up we had a pizza pizza pizza restaurant um That’s I would say that that’s it

30:07.21

vigorbranding

And maybe even where, if it’s a special restaurant or a special place or whatever else.

30:13.51

vigorbranding

Yeah.

30:22.52

vigorbranding

like ah Pizzaville. Yeah.

30:30.62

vigorbranding

Well, maybe one day.

30:31.37

Burney Jennings

its It’s very simple, pepperoni, cheese, sauce, and a great crust.

30:33.12

vigorbranding

yeah

30:36.69

vigorbranding

We know history repeats itself. So maybe one day there’ll be this thing where, I mean, your grandmother, ah you know, gifted your father the biscuit recipe.

30:45.38

Burney Jennings

Right.

30:46.74

vigorbranding

Maybe one day you’re your wife gifts the pepperoni ah recipe to one of your your your kids and maybe maybe it all comes back around, you know?

30:54.79

Burney Jennings

You never know.

30:56.77

vigorbranding

Pizzaville reborn with with your with your wife’s recipe.

30:57.78

Burney Jennings

That’s right.

30:59.55

vigorbranding

I love it.

31:00.15

Burney Jennings

Right.

31:00.19

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. Well, Bernie, you are fantastic as always. I really appreciate your time and thank you so much. And again, congratulations on such a great brand. And again, brands are built on promises. And I mean, your promises of of ah fresh and and love and and all that just really comes through and everything. And that’s that’s it’s very admirable.

31:21.02

Burney Jennings

hi Thank you. Been a pleasure.

31:25.08

vigorbranding

Cool. All right. i think

Ben started Tocabe with his friend and business partner Matthew Chandra. Opened in 2008, Tocabe is one of the only restaurants in Denver specializing in Native and Indigenous cuisine and one of only a handful in the United States. 

Ben is a tribal member of the Osage Nation of northeast Oklahoma. 

Ben also created Seed To Soul, which creates prepared authentic Native American meals for people in need in Native American communities. In Ben’s words, Seed to Soul helps to create and develop a Native food system. 

Tocabe was featured on Diners, Drive-In’s & Dives in 2011. Before the appearance, Tocabe was struggling. After the appearance, business “skyrocketed.” 

Ben admits that operating a Native restaurant isn’t as easy as a burger or pizza restaurant because the food doesn’t have the built in knowledge and familiarity that other restaurants might have. 

“Whenever someone asks me ‘What is Native American cuisine?’, I don’t know. And that’s the whole point. We’re all so different depending on the region and tribal community.” (Ben) 

“I always like to say we’re the oldest cultures on the continent but in many ways we have the youngest cuisine because it’s not clearly defined.” (Ben) 

“When we started we said we wanted to create the trend for what a Native restaurant is in America.” (Ben) 

“We started with Osage-specific recipes, but now we’re ingredient-driven. We source from native food producers from all over the country.” (Ben) 

On Tocabe’s appearance on Diners, Drive-Ins & Dives: “Guy (Fieri) was amazing. He was so fun, he was engaging. He enjoyed being there. You can tell he was into it.” (Ben) 

“For us to be a Native restaurant, we need to support the Native food system. And since it’s so spread out, we can’t always be locally made. So we say ‘Native first, local second.’” (Ben) 

“We source wild rice from the Great Lakes, blueberries from Maine, huckleberries from Washington state, olive oil from California, beans from the southwest. You name it, we source from all over.” (Ben)

“Whenever someone asks me ‘What is Native American cuisine?’, I don’t know. And that’s the whole point. We’re all so different depending on the region and tribal community.” (Ben) 

“I always like to say we’re the oldest cultures on the continent but in many ways we have the youngest cuisine because it’s not clearly defined.” (Ben) 

“When we started we said we wanted to create the trend for what a Native restaurant is in America.” (Ben) 

“We started with Osage-specific recipes, but now we’re ingredient-driven. We source from native food producers from all over the country.” (Ben) 

On Tocabe’s appearance on Diners, Drive-Ins & Dives: “Guy (Fieri) was amazing. He was so fun, he was engaging. He enjoyed being there. You can tell he was into it.” (Ben) 

“For us to be a Native restaurant, we need to support the Native food system. And since it’s so spread out, we can’t always be locally made. So we say ‘Native first, local second.’” (Ben) 

“We source wild rice from the Great Lakes, blueberries from Maine, huckleberries from Washington state, olive oil from California, beans from the southwest. You name it, we source from all over.” (Ben)

Roboburger is billed as the “World’s First Burger Chef In a Vending Format.” RoboBurger condenses the average kitchen by 99% into just 12 square feet, including refrigeration, heating, ventilation, prep line and cleaning. Burgers are automatically grilled and assembled in under 4 minutes. 

Roboburger RoboBurger was invented by Audley Wilson, a data scientist; Dan Braido, a Rutgers PhD grad; and Andy Siegel, a serial entrepreneur. Audley and his team have been working on Roboburger for about five years but Audley’s passion for robotics goes all the way back to his childhood. 

Audley has been passionate about robotics and automation from a young age, and one of his teenage years robotics prototypes got him a scholarship at Carnegie Mellon. 

RoboBurger was in beta phase up until SharkTank. They launched their first beta location in a dive bar in Jersey City in 2020. They launched an NSF-certified model in 2022. The units now – generation 5 – are UL certified and are launching in locations from Indiana to Missouri. 

Future locations for Roboburger machines include colleges, airports and rest stops. 

Friends encouraged Audley to take his idea to Shark Tank since the earliest days of the Roboburger process. Shark Tank producers noticed the media coverage about RoboBurger and reached out to Audley in 2022 with an offer to appear. It wasn’t until 2023 that Audley and his team decided the machine was reach for a prime time appearance. 

“No one ever went bankrupt trying to feed America burgers.” (Michael) 

“One of the biggest challenges (with Roboburger) has been the health requirements. Getting that NSF certification was a gargantuan challenge and getting our UL certification on top of that was even more.” (Audley)

“We clean the griddle after every burger. We do heat sanitization every four hours. We’ve actually got our cleaning process certified by a third party.” (Audley) 

“(One of our goals is to) make food service accessible for vending.” (Audley)

“People are starting to shift to a higher convenience lifestyle. How can I get what I want, when I want it, wherever I am.” (Audley) 

“When you get to Shark Tank, it’s just one go. You’re standing on a carpet. It’s live. There are no cuts.” (Audley)

“Shark Tank was a really interesting experience. I’ve done thousands of pitches over the years, but I’ve never had one (like Shark Tank).” (Audley) 

“We’re very happy with the (Shark Tank) deal. Those are exactly the sharks that we wanted to make a deal with.” (Audley)

00:01.57

vigorbranding

Hello there to Fork Tales. Today’s guest is Audley Wilson. Now, typically, I have chefs on. Typically, I have restaurateurs. But today, we have a robotics expert. ah He is a burger expert and founder and CEO of Robo Burger, the world’s first burger chef in a vending machine. That’s right. He makes burgers within a vending machine. He also recently appeared on Shark Tank to pitch his idea to the investors. Audley, thank you so much for joining us today.

00:31.42

Audley Wilson

Well, thank you so much, Michael, for having me on. I’m excited to be speaking with you.

00:36.82

vigorbranding

Awesome. wow You and I got to meet, I think it was a little over a year ago and I i saw you then again in LA and I got to actually not only see you, but I also saw the Robo Burger. So that’s super cool and I i got to test it. I got to have the burger and it was ah it was impressive. So let’s start with some background about rogo Robo Burger. I’m sorry, it’s like a tongue twister. ah Tell us about Robo Burger and how it all got started.

00:58.35

Audley Wilson

hey five times but So, oh man. Well, so it’s a long story. I’ve been working on a robo burger for in this current incarnation for about five years, but I’ve been working on food robotics over the course of my, for my entire life and burger machines for about 20. So, uh, you know, my first burger machine, my first food machine, uh, got me into Carnegie Mellon. Uh, and like, you know, then it was really focused on. residential kitchens, right? So like, how can you make an entire kitchen, fully automated?

01:31.33

Audley Wilson

And yeah so, you know, talk about really ahead of your time. um So like, that was, that was my first machine, and it was really, could do a variety of different meals.

01:34.72

vigorbranding

Right.

01:40.23

Audley Wilson

But really all it can make well is rice and chicken. when Yeah, it’s ah but first i college kid that’s great.

01:44.40

vigorbranding

So, but was that something that you did before? yeah Was that something you did before school? Like before you got into the into Carnegie Mellon or was it a contest or talk about that?

01:51.97

Audley Wilson

Yeah. Yes, I was working on this since ah when I was in high school.

01:56.90

vigorbranding

That’s crazy.

01:57.18

Audley Wilson

So when I was in high school, I was there, so you know, constantly working on this crazy machine because I was like, you know, I got to feed myself in college. So why not just have a crazy machine that could do it? um And but really, one of the challenges was it was trying to do so many things in one machine. So it was a super, super, super complicated. um But yeah, so that was that was what I was working on in high school. um I’ve been making food, ever since I learned, I self taught electrical computer engineer. So when I was like eight years old, my dad started teaching me how to do electronics. And then I was like, this is this is awesome. Took his college textbooks and started going through those. And I was like, you know so I taught myself electronics. And then I was like, well, if I could make motors move and lights turn on, why not make a food machine? I was watching the Jetsons a lot back then.

02:44.85

vigorbranding

Uh huh.

02:44.83

Audley Wilson

um you know, because it was on constant replay back in the 80s. So was it was like, okay, you know, like, I can make, I can make, you know, Rosie goes up to a machine and she enters what she wants. And then she, you know, outcomes as like, you know, ham on a bone or whatever. ah yeah and I wanted to make that machine.

03:03.40

vigorbranding

That is, that’s crazy. That’s it’s wild. And you know I gotta to say, you’re probably the only human being on earth that can say, I’ve been working on a burger machine for 20 years.

03:13.02

Audley Wilson

Yes, taking a little longer than I expected.

03:13.63

vigorbranding

ah but But you’re dedicated your life to the burger machine. I think that’s awesome. I mean, you know.

03:19.72

Audley Wilson

Oh, yes, definitely. um you know In college, yeah when I got into CMU, one of the reasons I got in was actually because of that that’s residential food machine.

03:29.71

vigorbranding

Sure.

03:29.84

Audley Wilson

um and In college, own they CMU was awesome and know they they were able to fund some of my development. I was working on the machine throughout the time period. My junior year, i was I was an entrepreneurship major there, so my junior year I had to start a business. So, that’s when I started my first business, which was actually a restaurant. um So, because I was like, okay, my robot isn’t there yet. um If I actually want to dedicate my entire life to food robotics, I should probably learn how to to cook and how a restaurant works. um So, I started a restaurant, you know, because there’s no simpler way to do that. um

04:03.50

Audley Wilson

yeah But yeah that’s really yeah everyone’s like, that’s a horrible idea. Don’t do this. This this industry is hard. And you know I definitely learned that that’s the case.

04:13.68

vigorbranding

yeah

04:13.75

Audley Wilson

um and But to what it was excellent about that time period is they it ah enabled me to really understand what the problem was that I wanted to solve. um you know the labor What I was facing was massive labor problems, um you know tons of really really long hours that I needed to cover, a lack of consistency between my chefs on the weekend or the the late night shifts, um you know and also the size of the kitchen. right My kitchen took up a large space, like you know how can I make this all smaller?

04:39.33

vigorbranding

Right.

04:43.44

Audley Wilson

And then like you data. There was like no data in my kitchen. I got data really by putting it in at the end of the day, so I didn’t really have that much data back in 2004. So you know that’s that’s what i wanted to solve like how could i just make this that and it like hit me like one night when i was uh when i was closed down my restaurants like wow what if i just like made this a lot simpler to go back to an automated food restaurant that that ma machine i was working on upset focus on commercial. One thing, just the burger, because it’s yeah like’s it’s pretty standardized for the most part.

05:16.00

vigorbranding

Hmm.

05:19.52

Audley Wilson

right you know Top bun, bottom bun, patty, and anything else that goes on in the in the middle there.

05:22.28

vigorbranding

Okay.

05:26.00

Audley Wilson

so like you know It’s consistent. um so yeah I could do one thing over and over and over and over again. and At that time period, I really wanted to like automate the whole back end of a Burger King. but

05:36.58

vigorbranding

Yeah, that’s it’s fascinating. So when you did your restaurant i mean and obviously you summed up everybody’s issues in the restaurant business. I mean, quality of food, consistency, the the labor shortage and just the cost of labor. I mean, you know, ah you’re you’re talking to everybody here and that makes ah that makes a ton ton of sense. um but But just real quick on your on your restaurant, like when you started a restaurant, it was at one location, was it a QSR, was it a focused, it it was it one of those where you focused on just one sort of type of food or one one sort of like like li burgers or a hot dogs or anything like that. Talk talk about that a little bit.

06:11.34

Audley Wilson

Yeah, so I was writing a trend back in 2004. I’m not sure if you remember hookah lounges. They had just came through New York City.

06:17.58

vigorbranding

Sure.

06:19.21

Audley Wilson

So one of my friends dragged me to a hookah bar in LES, you know, checked out the scene. I was like, this is actually pretty cool. This is an experience I haven’t had before. And, you know, it didn’t exist in Pennsylvania at the time. So, you know, I was the first hookah bar in Pittsburgh. um yeah so I opened opened the the concept there at first it was a hookah bar mediterranean tea and drinks and then i then i built out the kitchen myself and with my friends and my fraternity brothers built out the kitchen so went through the whole ah you know process of getting all the like the licenses and everything there so that’s what i learned about the permitting processes which.

06:59.52

vigorbranding

Uh-huh.

06:59.86

Audley Wilson

a big part of our life now. And yeah and then then after that, we turned it into a whole music scene. We had like lines around the block. It was it was pretty cool. um and It was Mediterranean food was the ultimate focus. um Because it was so hard to build out the kitchen, we ended up going all electric um you know using these huge pizza ovens to heat up legs of lamb because we couldn’t do a stack. And that’s really one of those things I think my machine really solves for. you know it’s a vetless solution So you can put it anywhere, just plug it in literally, cleans the air, filters it.

07:27.98

vigorbranding

Yeah.

07:35.57

Audley Wilson

Because they told me it was like 100,000 to put in my vent, ah just just the vent solution.

07:37.84

vigorbranding

Oh, sure.

07:40.66

Audley Wilson

I was like, really, this is crazy. um So I unfortunately limited the options that I had in my my establishment.

07:48.17

vigorbranding

Yeah, and you are obviously a serial entrepreneur. I feel like you you can see something and you can, you know, and it’s not a problem. It’s an opportunity, right? And everyone says that, but I think it’s obvious you’ve executed on that all across the board from evolving your hookah thing to the to the robotics. to If I can do electronics, why can’t I make burgers with it? too I’ve got to eat. So therefore, I should make something that can feed me. It’s pretty crazy. That’s that’s awesome. And you know it just goes to show, I guess, that that that drive and positivity and and the and the willing to have your eyes wide open and and execute.

08:20.60

vigorbranding

That’s the key, execute.

08:21.19

Audley Wilson

All

08:21.52

vigorbranding

And I think it’s awesome. So I get to talk to a lot of entrepreneurs, but I’m really i’m really impressed by all that you’ve done.

08:26.79

Audley Wilson

right.

08:27.36

vigorbranding

It’s really, really super cool. So, okay, we’ll get to Robo Burger here.

08:29.93

Audley Wilson

go

08:31.40

vigorbranding

Now, why why not pizzas? why and but eat Why not hot dogs? Why not chicken wings? Why why burgers?

08:37.09

Audley Wilson

Yeah, again, it’s the standardization. um One of the hardest parts of food machines and in general, when I’ve been building them, has been dispensing the ingredients, right? So, you know, if you have like too wide a variety of ingredients, then it could be like challenging. um But really, I love burgers. ah Back in the day, I was eating probably about five burgers a week. um yeah know So it’s pretty ah pretty high pretty high percentage of burgers.

09:07.61

Audley Wilson

um and you know And I think they’re really the design of it. I love the sandwich. yeah It’s like ah the perfect meal on the go.

09:14.05

vigorbranding

Yep.

09:16.30

Audley Wilson

You know you could grab it. You could take it in your car. I think it’s just a very convenient form of of heating yeah what I think it’s a little more sloppy.

09:25.77

vigorbranding

Well, look, yeah and no one’s ever going to, yeah no, no, one I don’t think anyone ever go really bankrupt trying to feed America burgers.

09:28.80

Audley Wilson

yeah

09:33.69

vigorbranding

Cause I mean, that’s definitely, uh, it’s definitely on the forefront of, uh, I think America’s palette for, uh, uh, for a lot of reasons, but.

09:34.35

Audley Wilson

Yeah.

09:40.37

vigorbranding

So, but like, okay, vending machines, they’ve been around for a while as far as food, hot food, but obviously pre-made and, you you know, soggy thing, not necessarily good for sure.

09:49.14

Audley Wilson

yeah

09:50.50

vigorbranding

ah You know, what what were some of the challenges with putting the process into a 12 square foot box? And talk about the process of your burger because it is not just you know, ah just reheated. It’s not just a microwaved pre-made sandwich. I think maybe that might be even a drawback. Maybe people might think, well, geez, this is probably what this is, but it’s not. It’s it’s it’s made fresh.

10:10.34

Audley Wilson

Yeah.

10:11.16

vigorbranding

So can you talk a little bit about that and then some of the um some of the challenges?

10:15.55

Audley Wilson

Yeah, throughout this journey, I’ve been blessed to have two really good co-founders, Andy Siegel and Dan Bredo. Dan was my CTO. hes Me and him went to Carnegie Mellon together. So he’s really been faced with having to conquer these insane hurdles of really taking an entire commercial kitchen and putting it into 12 square feet um and getting and NSF and UL certified as such.

10:30.03

vigorbranding

Thanks.

10:40.26

Audley Wilson

um So you know one of the biggest challenges, again, was ah you know the, you know, all the health requirements, right? You know, getting that and NSF certification was a gargantuan challenge, and then getting our UL certification on top of that was even more. You know, you always hope that there is some governing body that is ultimately saying, is this good is this safe and am I going to die by eating this? what these these um These groups are there for, um you know, their standards really have pushed us to the next level in making a much better, safer um thing, but ultimately the the ah challenges are or great. um So some of them, you know was you know, most vending machines start with food in a pre-packaged container and they stay there the entire time.

11:30.83

vigorbranding

Mmhmm.

11:31.17

Audley Wilson

hours actually starts in a package. We open the package, dispense the part, the components from there, close those packages, then cook and assemble everything and then put it into a second, into a final packaging. So, you know, due to that, the food touches, you know, food touching zones for all the chefs out there, you know, obviously everything needs to be cleaned. You know, so how do you actually cook? So we, like I guess you could go through the cooking process for ah listeners who don’t know how this machine works. So Roamer Burger, when you after you’ve done ordering what you like on the screen and paying, it’s going to then take a frozen patty out of the freezer, put it onto a griddle, and cook it on both sides.

12:14.66

Audley Wilson

While that’s cooking, it’s going to dispense buns from the toaster into the toasters from our sealed dispensers, and and then start toasting those. Once the buns are toasted, it’s then going to grab a box, put the buns into the box, add the chosen condiments, get the patty, and then get grab go over and get cheese a layer of cheese on top, and then go out to the user and where the user will see it come out, and then the clamshell box will close. So that’s ultimately the process. That’s our our patented procedure for making a burger.

12:46.19

Audley Wilson

um We have five patents there. So those are like we have five different inventions. um First one is the oven system, the way we actually cook it on a griddle.

12:50.62

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

12:55.89

Audley Wilson

yeah So that like yeah we’re actually cooking that. Making it really you know, you really get to the char we really you know, it’s the same way you would want a patty cooked the toasters or another patent that we had because ultimately we had to toast the but toast the bun and also perfectly dispense it our first burger machine back in 2019 that we put that we we were we put live in Andy’s Bar in Jersey City it would flip the buns half the time like ah

13:26.69

Audley Wilson

ah Every time, just with the buns half the time. It was, it was, it was the worst. We called it a lucky burger because they just kept it. But it was like, we were always lucky. It was horribly unlucky with the the buns.

13:36.98

vigorbranding

Mm

13:38.74

Audley Wilson

It’s, you know, but that’s the thing, you know, these simple, these products are very soft and delicate, you know, the bun.

13:43.78

vigorbranding

hmm.

13:44.11

Audley Wilson

um And you actually have to get it there right side up every single time. um And, you know, every, everyone’s, everyone is used to having a burger but prepared one way. So, you know, if it’s ever done wrong. um The next, next patent we had was our dispenser, which is actually what holds all these, uh, these a bench, all these, uh, the buns and the top on the bottom button and the paddy sit in different dispensers. So that was a real challenge because, you know, the buns are soft. Um, sometimes, sometimes things can stick. How do you actually you know dispense it every single time? Um, so that was a huge challenge for us.

14:20.49

vigorbranding

Mmhmm.

14:20.83

Audley Wilson

every Every step was just huge hurdles, but my team must have a really good team, people really solving these problems. it The list just keeps going, but you now now everything is really down to the hardware mechanisms have been perfected, and now we’re getting to do some really, really cool things on the software side, which is really exciting.

14:42.88

vigorbranding

Yeah, very cool. And it is amazing because, excuse me, the the the the burger is grilled and it’s not just nothing. And that’s the thing, I guess I wonder that that you have to not not overcome, but I think people would just assume because why wouldn’t you that, oh, it’s pre-made, pre-packaged, it’s in a microwave and that’s not it at all. And in fact, I’ll say, I’ll give some plugs here. You know, um Quench, our agency does CPG, food and beverage. ah We started in Pennsylvania and your buns are Martin’s potato rolls, which are very famous here in Pennsylvania, and they are making their rounds around the country, and it’s a really quality product. And and I think Heinz Ketchup is what you’re using too, another Pennsylvania brand.

15:19.59

Audley Wilson

Yeah, so yeah, yeah we love Heinz. The machine that you know has these Heinz bagged products in it. So pretty much all of our condiments start in the Heinz bags and then they get stayed sealed throughout the entire system and that’s like one of those big tests that they also make sure.

15:37.29

vigorbranding

Yeah.

15:37.29

Audley Wilson

How do you actually clean these lines? Have you guys ever had a beer line in your in your restaurant? right Lines are the worst.

15:41.48

vigorbranding

Yep. Yep.

15:42.87

Audley Wilson

You got to clean them.

15:44.02

vigorbranding

That’s right.

15:44.03

Audley Wilson

So like you know the machine also has like automatic processes to clean our condiment lines and systems like that because Every line is a problem um if you don’t have an actual cleaning solution.

15:54.10

vigorbranding

Yep.

15:54.22

Audley Wilson

So a machine will automatically do soap, sanitizer, hot water. It has built-in hot water heater. Pretty much, we have as many many things that you could possibly fit into 12 square feet. um and you you know Everything that you would expect to be in your in a restaurant is inside of this.

16:12.20

vigorbranding

Yeah, and candidly, there’s there’s there’s there’s ah I mean, you guys are cleaning after every burger. So we hear about health inspectors. We hear about, oh, don’t go back in their kitchen, you know about restaurants. Oh, boy, you don’t want to see what it looks like back there. But you guys are actually cleaning after every every burger. and and and and you know and and So the the sanitation part of this thing, the the health part of this thing is like first, foremost, and and extremely well thought out.

16:27.01

Audley Wilson

Yeah.

16:37.05

vigorbranding

Is that correct?

16:38.22

Audley Wilson

Yeah. 100%. You know, that’s been, uh, from the very beginning, it was like, you have to get the and NSF certification. Otherwise we can’t do this. We have to be able to really scale this across the country. Um, you know, in the and NSF, you know, that blue sticker that says and NSF, that was our goal from the beginning.

16:51.00

vigorbranding

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

16:53.73

Audley Wilson

um So, you know, like we clean off clean the the griddle after every burger, we do heat sanitization after every four hours, we do every day, it does a the daily soap, sanitizer, hot water treatment, you know, the three bin sink that you, you know, obviously required by the health department, um we do that process. And we’ve actually gotten our cleaning cleaning procedure certified by a third party. um like, you know, after you months and months and months of usage and doing the cleaning process, you know, in like, indetectable levels of microbes. So, you know, we did the whole culture growth and everything. My, Dan, he’s a PhD, so it’s been ah insane to have him on, you know, fighting this battle because he’s

17:37.98

Audley Wilson

yeah He’s really been leading the charge. We’re actually going to the American ah the Association of Food and Drug Officers’ Apto conference next week to present the machine to all of the health the big health officials around the country because you know we’re we’re we’re not we’re we’re not shy now to show what we’ve done because it’s it’s been challenging to get here, um but it’s pretty cool.

17:54.22

vigorbranding

Very cool.

18:01.29

vigorbranding

Yeah, ah yeah you should be you should be incredibly proud. and You know, you always are smiling and you’re always laughing. and I can only imagine how many obstacles you faced. And so you you’re you have the perfect attitude as ah as an entrepreneur because you’re you’re willing to smile and figure out the next thing. And that’s that’s ah that’s a gift. It sounds obvious, but boy, it’s so hard. And yeah, yeah.

18:21.34

Audley Wilson

Oh man, yeah, those was hard days where it’s just like, you’re just like, you go home, you’re like, I don’t even know how we’re gonna, I don’t know how to put a smile on the face.

18:28.18

vigorbranding

Yeah.

18:29.13

Audley Wilson

it And then you go in the next day, it’s like, gotta kick, gotta kick ass today to enter.

18:32.63

vigorbranding

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. That’s absolutely right. All right. So you opened up your first row robo burger pop up in Jersey city in 2022.

18:36.44

Audley Wilson

Yeah.

18:39.98

Audley Wilson

yeah

18:41.01

vigorbranding

How many locations you have now and then where do you see your machines being successful?

18:45.62

Audley Wilson

Yeah, so it’s been we’ve been in the beta period up until Shark Tank. so That was actually when we had pulled our our machines for all of our beta machines from the market. so First, we and we actually launched our first um unit to the market in 2020. That was in that that dive bar in Jersey City.

19:00.78

vigorbranding

Okay.

19:03.87

Audley Wilson

Then in 2022, we introduced our and NSF certified Mark II generation Two model to the mall and then we then after that we went to a pilot flying J and a couple other locate in the college in Queens and a couple of the locations um to you know, just perfecting the technology getting up to the next levels and then now we just got our and NSF or UL certification for our generation five units and those are the units now we’re rolling into the market.

19:28.50

vigorbranding

Mm hmm. Hmm.

19:33.91

Audley Wilson

So we have ah we we just launched our first units like a month ago into the market in ah in a business in a business and a business location with Pfizer. And now we’re and we’re launching with Penn Entertainment some casinos. in Pennsylvania they’re who are actually launching in their location in Indiana and then in their location in St.

19:51.77

vigorbranding

Mmhmm.

19:57.67

Audley Wilson

Louis this month and then next month we’re launching with another location for that same business and then machines after machines so going into a bunch of airports in terms of where we see the best bits you know convenience It’s really like where we are the the kitchen for convenience, both unattended retail as well as the traditional convenience store. So we we really are we really are looking forward to working with partners there. Bending, obviously. Bending partners, who we’re now able to

20:32.03

Audley Wilson

Make food service accessible for vending, which has really never been the case before. Food service previously was always prepared food, and distribution just dropping it onto to a cold case. and Now we’re talking about real food service, you know being able to offer their customers a higher so higher level solution. airports. We’re going into Orlando, MCO, and we’re going to be going into a few other airports throughout the country when our partners in the travel hospitality industry. And, you know, we’re excited to go into a few colleges.

21:05.70

vigorbranding

Sure.

21:06.61

Audley Wilson

Hopefully our album amount is over the course of the next few months. So I’m just really excited to start getting this technology out there.

21:11.14

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. Well, it makes sense. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. You know, it’s kind of interesting because, ah you know, candidly, I was watching the your episode of Shark Tank, and we can talk about that. yeah But when I was watching, I was watching with my wife, and my you know, my wife’s smart.

21:23.90

Audley Wilson

you

21:26.40

vigorbranding

She’s like asking questions like, yeah do you really need um a vending machine that serves burgers? She was impressed by how fresh it was and all that. and i said to her i said well but like Someone did the first vending machine for a soda. and At the time, you could get a soda at your house, you get a soda at a grocery store, you get a soda probably at a convenience store. so There’s plenty of places to get a soda. Why did you need to build a refrigerator, put it somewhere? and and When you think about it from that perspective, i mean it probably seemed a bit outlandish and maybe almost unnecessary But yet, let’s face it, ah soda vending machines are huge.

21:58.43

vigorbranding

So why not burgers? why i mean it makes total When you look at it from that perspective, I think it makes total sense.

22:00.66

Audley Wilson

Indeed.

22:02.65

vigorbranding

Because again, to your point, like colleges or airports, there’s people that want to have a decent, ah you know a good quality food experience, and places aren’t open. And especially now after COVID, there’s so many issues with employees and you know cutting down hours and and and all of that that you you’re you’re actually answering. You’ve been working on the solution to a problem that probably has been exacerbated over the last couple of years. you know it’s a

22:27.50

Audley Wilson

Yeah. it It’s interesting as well.

22:28.14

vigorbranding

so

22:29.57

Audley Wilson

Think back to like even like 2000, like there were so many more cafeterias, like, you know, in every business that was open, c catering to the office.

22:34.22

vigorbranding

Right.

22:38.83

Audley Wilson

Obviously there’s more work from home now, which has sort of caused a sort of shift, right?

22:40.66

vigorbranding

Mm-hmm.

22:43.75

Audley Wilson

So people have gone from like these, the cafeterias and people sort of moving back into this unattended retail.

22:46.82

vigorbranding

Right.

22:50.78

Audley Wilson

Vending solution. Um, you know, so going back to the world where the the automat was a solution, right? You know, so if you think back about that back in the 50s, there was the automat Um, so I think people are really starting to shift back to this high high convenience, right? How can I get what I want when I want it wherever I am? um And at the same time businesses need to handle for the fact that there’s ah you know, there’s less labor out there um at ah significantly higher rates than it was yeah I’m thinking back to minimum wage when I had my restaurant in 2004 was six dollars six dollars an hour

23:22.47

vigorbranding

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

23:25.27

Audley Wilson

I’m like, wow, I can’t even imagine. so you like having like you know I had 20 people. like I can’t imagine having that many people in a tiny small business with today’s minimal wages and increased food costs.

23:33.43

vigorbranding

Right. Right.

23:41.09

Audley Wilson

so you know like the The challenges are getting are bigger for the operator than ever. But yeah know by by going to the small unattended footprint, people are able to you know the distribute their costs over multiple locations, and make more money, um and and find new opportunities for growth.

24:01.13

vigorbranding

That’s great. so i mean we We talked briefly about the Shark Tank episode. I think people are really interested because it is ah as an entrepreneur, i mean i like I said, it’s one of those things where I’d sit there and and and focus on. I couldn’t watch it late at night because my brain would be spinning. you know i I loved it trying to figure out the angles. Would I do the deal? If I was selling the idea, how would I sell it? you know Looking at it from a marketing perspective, looking at it from a business perspective, it’s just you know my head’s going to explode. so Talk about that. like did you Did you pitch your idea? Did they come to you? What was the experience like? Did they do run-throughs? Talk a little bit about that and how the whole thing came together. i mean we see you know What do we see? Like 15 minutes, 12 minutes of any segment. um and you know but But what all is in there? i mean how How does that all work? I’d love to hear hear sort of like the behind the scenes a little bit.

24:51.43

Audley Wilson

Yeah. Yeah, I remember when I started working on my burger machine back in the day, you know, Shark Tank had came out and they were everyone was like, you should go on Shark Tank with this idea. So it was crazy to to actually go on Shark Tank eventually. The way it all came about was through, I guess, you know media When we launched our first mission our first Gen 2 machine in the mall here in Jersey, we got 4.4 billion impressions, like 43 million in earned media value.

25:22.69

Audley Wilson

So like we just got so much media.

25:23.32

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

25:24.93

Audley Wilson

um like I remember my wife ah my wife’s mom from Moldova saw us on TV and filmed it and sent us the video in Moldova.

25:30.52

vigorbranding

Mm

25:35.28

Audley Wilson

I was like, wow, this is… And I think that shows that like you know people have a lot of interest in this type of technology, and burgers specifically burgers are completely automated in a vending format.

25:39.48

vigorbranding

hmm.

25:48.13

Audley Wilson

um So that’s when we got the eye of the, I think, Shark Tank team.

25:54.63

vigorbranding

Gotcha.

25:54.68

Audley Wilson

um So at that point they you know they reached out to me back back in 2022. I didn’t even respond because I’m like, there is no way I’m going on Shark Tank with this machine. It is way too early. I need to itate iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate. And then we did probably about 100 more iterations after that.

26:14.76

vigorbranding

wow

26:14.72

Audley Wilson

And then you know a year later, i yeah like i get ah i get a response I get the same email again. It’s like, hey. I was like, wait, hold on. Did I respond the last time? And that’s what I realized. I didn’t respond like, wow, I’m a horrible person. ah hu So like, you know, it’s like, all right, you know what? I think we’re ready. So we responded, then then that pretty much got us into the process. And then we we had to do our practice pitches where, um you know, the producer’s feedback to me was usually around, you know, like every everyone did great, upset oddly, more energy.

26:49.93

Audley Wilson

but So my other two partners, they’re like very photogenic. So they like yeah they they really love being on camera. um but So yeah that was that was ah that was a fun process of you know just trying to you try to actually get nailed the pitch, because you get to practice, or they’re practicing it amongst ourselves um with some of our friends, trying to like, you this is you know this is what we’re, or what do you think about this these lines guys?

26:56.32

vigorbranding

ah

27:14.59

vigorbranding

Mm hmm.

27:15.64

Audley Wilson

um And then, Yeah, but yeah we never when you actually get to Shark Tank, it’s just one go. it’s You get on stage, and you know that youre you’re there that you’re standing on this carpet, and the next, to you know the door’s open, and and it’s it’s live. it’s a the never no no No cuts.

27:36.12

vigorbranding

Got it.

27:36.28

Audley Wilson

you and there you know they The team there is amazing. There’s so many cameras trained on your every move. um they’re you know they’re They’re amazing. um Yeah, it but it was ah it was really it was a really interesting experience. It was, you know, I’ve done thousands of pitches, you know, over the over the years, you know, thousands, but this one was, you know, I never had one. It was, you know, quite the same film where, you know, it’s going to be viewed by everyone and with everyone’s ah full ego and energy and enthusiasm coming for television, you know, in terms of the the judges on the other side. So, you know, it was quite an experience.

28:13.83

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. so So I read somewhere that that entrepreneurs who appear in the show required to meet with a show psychologist afterwards, just to make sure you weren’t beat up too bad or tortured by the experience. Was that true? Did you guys talk to somebody afterwards?

28:24.62

Audley Wilson

That’s 100% true. That’s 100% true. I know, like, everywhere they told us before, it was like, ah that’s weird. And then author words, it was like, it actually was it was nice to talk. Like, we were all very over the moon and excited. So it was nice to, you know, they they really, you know, they’ve been doing it for 15 years.

28:40.86

vigorbranding

Yeah.

28:45.31

Audley Wilson

They know what they’re doing. It’s an impressive of organization.

28:46.60

vigorbranding

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m sure. Hey, and you guys got a deal. Congratulations. I’m sure some people are over there and they’re in the fetal position crying in the corner. You know, like I spent most of my life, bill you know, dedicated to this business and they’re telling me it’s a terrible idea. So, ah but but yeah.

28:58.91

Audley Wilson

You know, at one point, and you you know you you saw the episode, at one point in the middle of the episode, it’s like, wow, that’s good to be me.

29:05.63

vigorbranding

Yeah. Well, my wife said, Oh, they’re not going to get a deal. I’m like, well, just watch. Let’s see. You know? And, uh, you’re, by the way, you said about not being photogenic. I disagree with you, but your, your, your partner, the CMO was hilarious because he got a lot of closeups because in the beginning they were saying some stuff that wasn’t so nice and his eyes are just like, you look like a deer in the headlights. It was awesome. So he made he made for good TV. That’s for sure. That guy’s he’s a character you can tell.

29:26.93

Audley Wilson

yeah

29:28.22

vigorbranding

Uh, but.

29:28.42

Audley Wilson

yeah he’s so He’s definitely a character. He used to be on ah TV commercials back in the day, like Mr. Bubbles and all this other stuff. And and he’s ah you know he he’s is ah quite a character.

29:41.26

vigorbranding

Yeah. And so you you you got in with Mr. Wonderful, Kevin O’Leary and Michael Rubin. So you got a $1.5 million dollars loan at 9%. And are you are you happy with the deal? Have you guys ah gotten any traction?

29:52.16

Audley Wilson

Yeah, we’re very happy with the deal. These are exactly the sharks that we wanted to work with.

29:54.39

vigorbranding

OK.

29:57.73

Audley Wilson

yeah We wanted to we wanted to know work with Mr. Wonderful. We wanted to have him ah up on stage and interacting with the machine. ah And that that was before we found out who the guest shark was going to be.

30:08.71

vigorbranding

Mm-hmm.

30:08.88

Audley Wilson

And it was Michael Rubin. And we’re like, wow, Michael Rubin. That’s really cool. So like you know we ended up getting exactly the sharks that we wanted to do a deal with. two sharks and especially after coming to a point where we thought we were going to have like zero sharks at one point.

30:23.43

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah.

30:23.51

Audley Wilson

is So you it was it was ah was it it was just a it was ah it was a lot of fun um after it was done. It was the most intense 34 hours and but of my life, the most intense 34 hour trip to LA ever.

30:41.85

vigorbranding

Yeah, I’ll bet.

30:41.91

Audley Wilson

um It was just nonstop.

30:44.97

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. Okay. So let’s talk back to back on the rubber burger. Can you share some details about what you’re, you’re cooking up for the future? I mean, like, you know, some people want bacon on their burgers. You know, we know the lettuce and tomato thing and fresh vegetable. That can be obviously comp an issue. Can you talk a little bit about maybe some of the decisions you made to do things, not to do things and some potential ideas of what you might do next?

31:00.46

Audley Wilson

Yeah,

31:04.12

Audley Wilson

yeah so so let let’s talk about lettuce and tomatoes first. The reason we didn’t do do lettuce and tomatoes first is Dan would always say is because of E.

31:08.15

vigorbranding

Yeah.

31:13.30

Audley Wilson

coli and some of the challenges there and being able to detect it.

31:13.77

vigorbranding

Hmm.

31:16.27

Audley Wilson

um It actually is just another hurdle for the operator and our goal is trying to reduce hurdles for the operator to be able to deliver road burger to their end consumer. So yeah that’s why we’re not offering it our first first iterations of these units. um In time, we’d like to operate. But actually, the operators that we’ve been working with haven’t been asking for that so much. But we’d love to be able to do it so that we can do more brand partnerships with you some of the bigger fast food companies that are out there that do use lettuce and tomatoes. In terms of bacon, we would like to do bacon.

31:52.30

Audley Wilson

We’re not sure how or when. We definitely want to add it to our lineup. In terms of coming soon, what we’re working towards, we want to be able to make the unit smaller. We want to have a smaller unit that we can even reduce the cost to the operator even more.

32:05.61

vigorbranding

Mm

32:10.34

Audley Wilson

We want to be able to make a bigger unit that can really be able to do really high volume. you If you think about replacing the back end of burger production for any of the big fast food companies. and So we want to be able to go about bigger and smaller while constantly just trying to reduce the cost to the operators that way. Because at the end of the day, like yeah I’m an operator, Andy’s andy’s had ah three restaurants as well.

32:32.35

vigorbranding

hmm.

32:33.68

Audley Wilson

um you like We know how how annoying it is to actually take a portion of your profits out of your pocket to fund X and Y expenses. So we just want to make it lower and lower and lower so that way they can make more money.

32:46.69

vigorbranding

that’s fantastic

32:47.31

Audley Wilson

That’s really where our focuses are on. Um, and, uh, you know, faster, you know, it’s currently takes us about four minutes to make a burger. We like to be able to get more throughput, you know, cause at the end of the day, you know, it’s all, if you’re there, which is multiple people right now, we can, we can spread, if there are multiple machines, we can spread orders across a few, the cluster of units, but you know, we don’t want to be ah that same unit to be able to make burgers two times as fast.

33:11.36

vigorbranding

Yeah. Yeah. And if I remember correctly, your, your machine currently can hold like 50 burgers, right? Like so, uh, it stacks.

33:17.53

Audley Wilson

Yeah.

33:18.40

vigorbranding

Yeah. So, and I mean, depend obviously depending on how many you sell that someone’s got to come in and then service the machine and, and restock it and everything else.

33:25.40

Audley Wilson

Exactly.

33:26.22

vigorbranding

So yeah, that makes total sense.

33:27.31

Audley Wilson

Exactly.

33:27.63

vigorbranding

So so

33:28.47

Audley Wilson

So in some of the airport applications in the busy or high volume, then yeah what we’re they’re doing is putting multiple machines, two, three, four machines in like clusters and then multiple clusters throughout the locations. So that’s ah really what we’re building towards that world where you have food anywhere, anytime. Because we’ve all been to that airport where yeah um the your flight gets delayed.

33:48.16

vigorbranding

Yeah.

33:50.29

Audley Wilson

You’re there till like 2 AM. m yeah The bar closed down at 8 PM.

33:52.45

vigorbranding

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no doubt.

33:56.34

Audley Wilson

just there waiting

33:57.88

vigorbranding

Yep, I totally, totally.

33:58.23

Audley Wilson

yeah so well

33:59.76

vigorbranding

I’ve experienced it pretty much every week. you know I’m on a plane every week and ah you know every other week umm I’m in a situation similar to that. like When do I eat? When should I get something? What can I get? What’s the quality I can get? you know And then with delays and layovers and canceled flights, you never know when where you’re going to be. So I think it’s i think um it makes a ton of sense. Now, I have a couple of other just really simple questions for you.

34:21.39

Audley Wilson

And you’re just there waiting.

34:21.65

vigorbranding

And I know your burger’s great. I’ve had it. So between, I’ll say, Burger King, McDonald’s, and Wendy’s, who makes the best burger?

34:28.40

Audley Wilson

ah wendy um Wendy’s, Dave Thomas all but all day long, but Shake Shack is definitely my my favorite here as a New Yorker.

34:33.92

vigorbranding

Yeah, right.

34:39.09

Audley Wilson

um yeah I’m a big Shake Shack fan.

34:42.94

vigorbranding

Yeah, I totally and you know what i agree with exactly what you said. I do agree with Wendy’s out of those three. And I i love Shake Shack. I’m a diehard Phillies fan. They have one down outside the stadium or inside the stadium. And that’s that’s usually my go to that or hot dog. Of course, it’s a baseball game. um And, you know, I was at Burger America in New York and who does the smash burger? and ah the Mr. Mott’s and he said he dedicated his life to the hamburger. So you two have a lot in common. You ought to yeah you you ought to connect.

35:07.38

Audley Wilson

Oh, man, yeah.

35:08.79

vigorbranding

He’s a

35:09.12

Audley Wilson

um but i ever I think that’s I’d love to connect to it. another

35:11.99

vigorbranding

Yeah. Yeah. And so now like one final meal, if you have to, you could pick anything other than your burger. I can’t let you just pick your burger, but anything, what would your, yeah what would your final meal be?

35:19.30

Audley Wilson

Oh, definitely. Yeah, let’s see.

35:22.01

vigorbranding

What would it be? And where would you have it? Why?

35:26.91

Audley Wilson

Probably lobster and oysters um on a beach in Jamaica.

35:30.29

vigorbranding

Very good.

35:33.31

vigorbranding

Oh, nice. Well done. I like that. I can, I can picture that. That’s fantastic.

35:37.01

Audley Wilson

Because I’m Jamaican, because I’m Jamaican, and whenever me and my wife are down there, I love love hitting up a nice lobster um but from like the rust, the shack on the beach.

35:41.71

vigorbranding

That’s great.

35:50.49

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic. Ollie, you were wonderful. Is there anything else you want to mention about what you’re up to or anything else about the ah Robo Burger?

35:58.65

Audley Wilson

Yeah, well, you know, so right now we’re offering robo burger for sale for the first time really to the general public. Previously, we’ve only been working with like some of the, the biggest players that manage food and, uh, and convenience. So now we’re actually, uh, selling these units.

36:14.19

vigorbranding

Fantastic.

36:14.15

Audley Wilson

So if anybody is interesting in getting their hands on the unit, we’d love to speak with you. Um, come check us out on our website, the robo burger.com th E robo burger.com. Um, and, uh, looking forward to speaking with you.

36:27.91

vigorbranding

Ali, you are awesome. I appreciate your time and I love your passion and congratulations on your success and your fortitude, I’ll say. You just smile and keep going forward. So, I mean, it’s amazing and I’m really, really impressed by what you’ve done. Thank you.

36:41.09

Audley Wilson

Well, thank you so much. I appreciate speaking with you.

36:44.92

vigorbranding

Good deal.

Craig is the founder of Doc B’s Restaurant & Bar. The restaurant is named after Craig’s late father, “Doctor B,” Doc B’s was first opened in Chicago in September 2013 and is a fresh, casual dining concept. Doc B’s has 10 locations in Chicago, Tampa, Ft. Lauderdale, and Coral Gables, FL; Austin, Dallas, and Forth Worth, TX.

Craig was inspired to follow a career in the restaurant industry after meeting Morton’s Steakhouse legend Allen Bernstein at a Knicks game. Craig and his dad talked to Allen at his courtside seats and he later formed a mentor relationship with Craig. 

Craig interviewed Allen Bernstein for a career report in the sixth grade about being a restaurant owner. Allen would later industry Craig to other restaurant industry leaders. 

Doc B’s started as a fast casual restaurant and transformed into a full service restaurant. That shift allowed Doc B’s to offer an elevated food offering and establish a better relationship with customers. 

Different layouts of each Doc B’s location provides opportunities for different design elements and features within each location. 

“(Allen Bernstein) really transformed my life to a certain extent. Allen drove me to pursue a career in the restaurant industry.” (Craig) 

“For me, the idea of hospitality and really going above and beyond for every guest was always really innate in the philosophy of our business. That’s why we transferred to full service.” (Craig)

“It’s about slow and steady growth. Not just growing for growth sake. Really trying to get great real estate, grow organically, grow from within and build the team from within.” (Craig) 

“I know the last chapter of our book. I just don’t know all the pages between today and then.” (Craig) 

“We don’t want to cut costs just to get more bodies inside the restaurant. We want to maintain our integrity, we want to maintain our value on the plate and we don’t want to trim the quality that we offer.” (Craig) 

“We’re traveling. We’re in our restaurants. We’re engaging with the team and engaging with guests. We’re doing constant evaluations of the food and service.” (Craig) 

“It really comes down to letting the general managers own their business and operate it like it was their four walls.” (Craig) 

“What’s fun about my job is you can have a day that’s the easiest day in the world and then you can have another day where nothing is going right.” (Craig)  

00:00.60

vigorbranding

Hey there hey I’m really excited today to talk to a guest ah a gentleman I met probably a couple months ago something happened there got an error message you the phone expensive fiction problems. She’s got internet connection.

00:20.20

vigorbranding

It’s still going just gonna let rather than stop it ended I think we’ll just I’ll trim this up so you let’s start over. Okay hi I’m really excited about today’s guest mainly because I love a good origin story. Our guest today is Craig Bernstein he’s the founder of dock be’s fresh kitchen restaurants Craig I really appreciate you joining us today. Um, ah you and I met like ah I don’t know a couple months ago out in l a and I got to talking to you and I just love a good story. So welcome to the show.

00:36.61

Craig 

Yeah, thank you so much. Thanks for having me Michael and it was great to meet you and share with you. My story and tell you more about it today.

01:00.21

vigorbranding

Sounds great. So you know when I first heard you talk about doc bees. Um I was fascinated by it for 2 reasons. First of all as I said I’m a marker right? So I love a good story. Ah, ah, original stories or or what brands are made of so we have doc bees and also ah you know Doc Bee was your father.

01:11.97

Craig 

Um, yeah.

01:18.23

vigorbranding

And my dad was my best friend so the whole thing just kind of fit together for me and I was really ah, really excited. Ah for you to be on here today so can can you tell me tell me a little bit about the whole thing about your dad and and and how this whole thing about the doc bees got started.

01:19.90

Craig 

Full I have to go way back way back? Um, you know my father was a doctor um, like you mentioned my last name is Bernstein so Doc B is ultimately where the name for the business came from but um I grew up in New York long island and me my father and I you we you know we used to go to the New York Knickscapes and we had a great you know great experiences going to madison square garden rooting on the knicks in the 90 s Patrick Ewing Charles Oakley John Starks still remember it like it was yesterday. And so if I go into the story about how Doc Bees and the restaurant started. Um, yeah I could go into that detail if that’s what you’d like yeah so so it’s it’s kind of a cool story. So I’m ten years old I’m a middle child I have ah a younger sister.

02:08.55

vigorbranding

It’s awesome.

02:13.75

Craig 

Sarah she’s 5 an older brother Jonathan at the time he was 12 and I remember like it was yesterday. My dad calls the house ma we all ran to the phone at that time you actually wanted to answer the phone now when the phone rings nobody wants to answer it and we picked up the phone.

02:14.96

vigorbranding

Yeah I’d love. Yeah, absolutely.

02:31.14

Craig 

And my dad says I have 2 kni tickets for tonight’s game and says to my mom who can come and we all we all raised our hand I want to go I want to go and my mom said all right here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna cut straws into a hat. And whoever gets the smallest straw gets to go to the gate. So I can’t imagine my sister by the way 5 was gonna be allowed to go to the Knicks game that late at night but she was included because she always got anything she wanted and so we all picked straws. And I ended up picking the smallest straw and I won to go to the game with my dad so you know I was happy I got to go upstairs and change I remember long story short. it’s it’s raining he drives home from work picks me up. We drive into Manhattan which was always like. Like still just I still remember it so vividly and we get to the garden and I’m thinking we have these great seats see. We’re gonna have a great time and we’re walking up and it just we don’t stop up and up. We have the highest seats in in the whole garden. And you know as I was ten years old it didn’t matter where we were sitting but I wasn’t expected to be in the nosebleed section and so we have a great time I remember at that time there was a restaurant called ranch one and that was like a.

03:57.94

Craig 

Chicken finger place and that’s all I ever wanted. It was ranch one chicken fingers and they gave you french fries and they served it in a big cup overflow with fries. So I got my ranch one and during halftime my dad points down to celebrity row which at that time was a. Still is a big deal but it was a big deal spike Lee and Bill Murray and he points down to celebrity where says Craig do you see that guy down there and I said dad we’re so high I I can’t see anything. He says the guy who’s sitting at the courts. That’s my friend.

04:27.86

vigorbranding

Sure and.

04:35.80

Craig 

And I sat to him I said well if he’s sitting on the courts I Want to go meet it and he said I don’t know if we’ll make it down in time but let’s try so we hurried downstairs. We try to get to the court before the buzzard you know goes off that halftime’s over.

04:44.31

vigorbranding

Um.

04:52.12

Craig 

And we’re we’re blocked by the velvet rope to get through to the very bottom of the court and my dad’s yelling and he’s saying Allen Allen this guy Allen turned around and waves to my dad and ultimately tells the usher. He’s safe. You could let him in. And so I go down and I’m standing on the court of madison square garden and I’m like this is unbelievable. This is incredible. The ball comes to me I catch the ball and I’m just you know just in like all so the you know halftime ends I shake this gentleman Allen’s hand I say thank you so much and. We walk all the way back up to our top row seats you want me to keep going I mean there’s a lita and so we finished the game. We have the best time and the next day Allen calls my dad and he says Rob he says you never told me that.

05:44.23

vigorbranding

Oh yeah, it’s awesome. It’s great.

05:47.52

Craig 

Craig was such a precocious young. You know great kid and my dad said well I didn’t know it never came up I forgot to tell you them and so he says I want to give you tickets to the game to take the family and you know you guys can have our seats a couple weeks. Go by. We get the tickets. Keep in mind there’s 5 people to our family three kids and mom and dad and alan from what I was told was the only guy who had 4 tickets on celebrity row. Everybody else had 2 and now this is back in the day so we we go to a restaurant we eat dinner.

06:07.85

vigorbranding

Ah.

06:24.80

vigorbranding

Um.

06:26.27

Craig 

And then we go to Madison square garden now remember with 4 Seats my dad puts my little sister on his shoulders and says Sarah pretend like you know they can’t see you and somehow gets us in and 5 of us sat on 4 seats on celebrity row unbelievable. It was like. Those things don’t happen anymore and and so we have an amazing time and the high fiving the players it was it was memorable. Okay, fast forward I’m in the sixth grade the same year that this happened and I have to do a career report.

06:49.20

vigorbranding

But that’s great. Yeah now.

07:01.79

Craig 

What do you want to be when you grow up and so I go home and you know one of the things that we were so passionate about as a family is we always had dinner together as a family came around food. Maybe that comes full circle and my I say to my dad I said I said dad I said ah.

07:12.67

vigorbranding

Um.

07:20.82

Craig 

Ms Collins gave us a report.. What do you want to be when you grow Up. He says oh do you want to be a doctor like me I said no I said I want to be like the guy who has the tickets at the Nick game. What does that Guy. Do. Oh to make money and so he says well remember that restaurant that we went to before the game I said yeah, he said well he owns that restaurant I said all I fine when I grew up my career report’s going to be restaurant owner and I did the career report and I was 10 and.

07:47.48

vigorbranding

I Want to I want to make money. Yeah.

07:56.70

vigorbranding

Ah.

07:59.17

Craig 

I don’t know if that was a good thing or a bad thing but here we are today.

08:06.33

Craig 

No relation. Yeah yeah, so I don’t know so he didn’t he didn’t he wasn’t the founder. You know I think Arnie Morton and the morton family founded it but he ultimately became the you know chairman Ceo of the business I think around store 6 or 7

08:16.26

vigorbranding

That’s awesome and of course the report was about ah Alan Bernstein no relation to you it just happens on the same last name and he is the founder of mortons is that correct.

08:25.24

Craig 

And you know gruident you know I think the household name that that everybody knows today.

08:30.15

vigorbranding

Ah, okay.

08:33.23

vigorbranding

Yeah, he ran it. Okay.

08:40.51

Craig 

Almost goingus. Yeah.

08:41.26

vigorbranding

So you wrote this report that you wanted to be this restaurantauur and we actually had a copy that report in a little bit I’m going to ask you some of the questions that you asked Allen in your report and see if you if you feel that those questions still hold water today if you would answer them differently. Okay.

08:53.39

Craig 

Yeah I mean the whole way I mean he really? um you know he he really transformed my life to a certain extent I mean you know I went to Emory University in Atlanta and I started you know business and entrepreneurship and I got into some little groups of.

08:57.68

vigorbranding

Um, so anyway, so the relationship with Alan continues after that meeting he was he was like a mentor to you through your college years is that correct want to talk a little bit about that and that relationship.

09:10.73

Craig 

Just you know the entrepreneurial idea when I was in college I worked on a business plan to open a restaurant in emory village and the the concept was called Bernie’s New York Delhi and you know I would float this idea by Alan and other people but I was always pitching you know I mean I always was like.

09:16.55

vigorbranding

Ah.

09:30.32

Craig 

Who wants in and as a 20 year old kid. Um, nobody really wanted in I mean a little little you know little bites here and there but but nothing like we were ultimately able to to secure in the future.

09:41.52

vigorbranding

Um, no.

09:44.55

Craig 

And so you know Alan really changed my life. You know ultimately I went on to work for Houston’s hillstone restaurant group and you know Alan really drove me to to go pursue that he didn’t have any you know relations or um introductions to make but he did say. You know it’s such a highly regarded bestin class restaurant company and if I could get my foot in the door there. Um, that would really be an incredible foundation to becoming a restaurant manager and ultimately I followed his advice and through that advice. Um. I got into that company and another quick story after I was with Houstons I remember Alllan called me and he said we’re opening up a 5 guys burgers Alllan became a big franchisor of a franchisee of of 5 guys and he said you have to come I said Alan I’m working I can’t he said you have to come you have to come. I drove to this opening of 5 guys in Queens New York and I go when I was there for maybe like 30 minutes and I said I have to go he said just sit down shut up I have somebody coming. You need to meet I said all right fine and so I waited I waited I waited all of a sudden David Overton

10:44.87

vigorbranding

Ah.

10:55.57

Craig 

The you know chairman founder of cheesecake factory comes in and I had lunch with Alan Bernstein David Overton Mrs. Overton and we’re eating burgers fries and hot dogs at the opening of 5 guys burgers in queens.

11:08.28

vigorbranding

Yeah.

11:12.50

Craig 

And I mean these stories where I share them. They just give me chills I mean nothing came of it except just to hear these industry Titans talk about the restaurant business and these are memories that I’ll never forget.

11:38.18

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic. You know I get to in this podcast I get to talk to a lot of founders. A lot of entrepreneurs which of course you’re one and they always have unique stories and they’re they’re always like um, what’s intriguing to me is a lot of times. They’re not just things weren’t just handed to to you or to them. Or to any of us. There was a lot of hustle involved right? A lot lot of struggle. A lot of lot of grit and I always I love that about the about the industry and about the entrepreneurs side of this I they say it’s super cool I know you know Alan taught you a lot about hospitality. Um, you know and the importance of hospitality in a restaurant you know.

12:04.80

Craig 

Well, you know listen we we transformed our business from you know, a more fast casual although it was ah an elevated fast casual experience into a full-service you know, dining atmosphere and.

12:13.42

vigorbranding

And today’s era of of quick service is hospitality dying art.

12:19.43

Craig 

You know everything from you know, hostesses up front to full service at at the tables to more expansive bars. Um elevated management teams um team members in the kitchen who could execute a little bit of a higher quality food food offering.

12:38.90

Craig 

And so I think for for me and for us the the idea of hospitality and really going above and beyond for every guest experience was always really innate into the philosophy of the business and. So I think that for for us. We were always a little bit more on the elevated side and that’s why we we transferred to the full service I mean we were able to make greater connections be at the tables longer walk guest to tables and really kind of see the thing.

13:03.60

vigorbranding

From here.

13:14.40

Craig 

From the start to the middle to the end with this above and beyond um gesture of hospitality and I think that’s really what was like ingrained in me I mean anytime I would ever go to Morton’s with Alan you know it was every dessert on the table. Every appetizer on the table. And even after you had every dessert he was like you gotta try this other one. That’s not yet on the menu and you gotta taste it put Allen I’m full. Ah you could. You could take 1 more bite and that’s really you know how how we how we run the business I’ll tell you 1 quick story about hospitality. Um, you know I was.

13:43.98

vigorbranding

He.

13:51.56

Craig 

I started the the first restaurant and died in Chicago in the Gold Coast neighborhood about ten and a half years ago and I was in the restaurant every single day I mean morning tonight and I got to really create amazing relationships with so many spectacular guests as the business has expanded.

14:05.64

vigorbranding

But.

14:09.52

Craig 

I can’t be in every restaurant every day and but those connections are everlasting so one day I think it might have been during covid so you know twenty twenty I’m sitting outside and a guest walks into place in order and she recognizes me. She says oh my goodness I haven’t seen you in so long and I’m so proud of you. We were your first guest in this whole thing and she sort of started to tear up and I said what’s the matter she said you know my husband has since passed away and we used to always come here every Friday night. And we would always come here and we would get pizza and we used to serve pizza and and you no longer have pizza and I said oh my goodness I said you know what I’m going to do for you tonight. We’re going to make you a pizza and I was sitting there with my chef and we found you know dough. We made her pizza. And so it’s like you know those types of connections and relationships I mean that’s really why we got into this business in the first place and to make somebody so happy from pizza dough and marinara and fresh mozzarella.

15:17.00

vigorbranding

A.

15:21.29

Craig 

You You can’t do that in any other walk of life so to be able to have those types of connections and that type of special relationship. You know I would trade this for nothing.

15:34.50

vigorbranding

Yeah, um.

15:43.32

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah I mean food is love and it’s ah it’s a great way to connect with people and you know a lot of people’s best memories are revolve around food. You were saying earlier about your your family always ate dinner together. It’s sort of a law start unto itself. But.

15:49.28

Craig 

Yeah, yeah, big big time.

15:57.17

vigorbranding

It’s just ah, it’s a wonderful part of life and it’s it’s something that you know we we all cherish and it it really does evoke a lot of great memories. That’s for sure So when when you started now you have this full-serce restaurant you really you really weren’t planning on that.

16:05.33

Craig 

Yeah, so you know what I worked um so I worked for Houstons and I grew up to become a general manager with them and during my tenure. You know you started to see and this was in the in the sort of 2007 2008 2009

16:11.69

vigorbranding

Right? At at first it was not it was more of ah of a digital menu right? Fast casual kind of concept.

16:21.96

Craig 

And you started to see people come in and place orders at the bar cheeseburgers, chicken salads, ribs and get the food delivered on a plate and then ask for a box and take it to go with them. And at the time we weren’t doing at least that that company delivery pickup to go. It didn’t exist and so as an entrepreneur I mean you know in 1920 years old I was trying to build a restaurant called Bernie’s deli

16:48.62

vigorbranding

See.

16:52.24

Craig 

Ah, was always thinking about you know what could we? What could be the first concept that we we try to create and so the idea was how do you take casual dining and turn it into an order at the counter. Um service experience sort of think A. Panera bread but on steroids so digital menu boards and we had Gps table trackers and I think the one saving grace that that ah that we implemented is we had a full liquor wine beer program at the restaurant and we had a bar component.

17:24.32

vigorbranding

Fool.

17:28.25

Craig 

Where you could get full service at the bar or you can go order at the counter sit down at the table and then the service team would sort of take care of everything else. Drink refills catch up run your food bust your tables things like that and what we noticed is. Guest would walk in and they would say hey you see that menu over there at the bar go bring me that menu and you know come take my order at the table and I’m being a little facetious the way that they they spoke but not so far off. And and ultimately you know it was through having this hybrid model right? from the get go. We trained the service team to have elevated service points. We had a full liquor program. We had full service at the bar so we weren’t just one 1 or 1 or nothing.

18:06.32

vigorbranding

Um, sure. Yeah.

18:16.87

Craig 

We sort of had all these little things going so long story short We we started to take orders at the table. We started to notice that more people preferred at least in our restaurant that model and what I thought was this amazing entrepreneurial innovative idea.

18:29.61

vigorbranding

From who.

18:35.80

Craig 

Take casual restaurant food and serve it in it to go order at the counter environment. You know we we soon realized that you know most people again for us in the gup coast neighborhood of Chicago wanted to sit down be taken care of but also have a ah casual go to spot. Where they could dine with us multiple times a week

19:07.50

vigorbranding

Yeah, well I mean that’s it’s smart and customers. They vote with their mouths right? They’re going to you got to follow them and what their their needs are and their wants are and you have to evolve and and roll with the punches and and and change your model if you need be That’s ah, that’s very very smart.

19:19.00

Craig 

Ah, very true would I Just think that I’m just like a regular a regular guck you know and like sometimes I’m in the mood for fried chicken Sometimes I’m in the mood for a salad sometimes I’m in the mood for a fried chicken sandwich. So I think.

19:21.33

vigorbranding

I have ah I’m going to jump on a side here. It’s kind of funny because one of the things I read about you you know I’m sitting here saying you have to like listen to the customers and listen to what their needs are but your menus based on your on your favorite things isn’t it.

19:36.81

Craig 

You know the menu is really built around something for everyone any day of the week whatever they’re in the mood for and you know so far I think my taste buds align with the most people you know we’re operating now in 5 states and so.

19:42.21

vigorbranding

Yeah, ah.

19:55.54

Craig 

So I think it’s it’s resonating. Yes, so we have 10 restaurants and um, yeah, it’s it’s an exciting time. You know it’s sort of like slow and steady growth. You know, not just growing for growth sake but really trying to get great real estate grow organically um.

20:07.40

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. How many locations total. Okay, fantastic.

20:14.76

Craig 

Grow from within build the team from within I mean we have people on our team from day one and I mean when you look back and you see ah an opening line cook from our kitchen now running the kitchen of our first restaurant I mean that’s like you can’t you can’t beat that.

20:20.10

vigorbranding

Great. Um.

20:33.85

Craig 

Amazing.

20:41.26

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got to feel good about that. So one of the things I think is really interesting. Is you know we talk about these you know the dock bees and or any kind of a restaurant and and the and the main thing about a restaurant I Know it’s not a franchise. It’s all they’re all owned by you. But.

20:50.86

Craig 

Yeah I mean I don’t know if it’s a good thing or a bad thing but it certainly makes my architect you know, happy to to build. But no, you know I think I think what it is is you know we’re constantly trying to.

20:58.22

vigorbranding

They typically want to resemble the same look and feel. So yeah that that consists Ram your decor, an atmosphere for each location is a bit different. Can you talk about that and the thinking behind that.

21:09.95

Craig 

Innovate and think outside the box and you know we’re we’re traveling looking at what other restaurants and other people in the hospitality whether it’s hotels whether it’s fast casual whether it’s full service. You know it’s all these different visual cues that. You know we’re constantly looking to incorporate into how we can make our restaurants better. So I think the the architecture and the atmospheres in the layouts are generated more around. We don’t have a cookie cutter box. So. Each restaurant some are four Thousand Square feet some are six Thousand Square feet some are in lifestyle centers some are in general mall some are in urban downtown markets and so the the atmosphere sort of forces us.

21:45.48

vigorbranding

Who.

22:00.68

Craig 

Have to look at each buildout just a little bit different so that patios that then how do you incorporate that into the dining room and and and so I think it’s it’s it’s we still haven’t figured out exactly who we are. You know what I sort of say all the time is you know? and and I say this.

22:15.31

vigorbranding

You hear.

22:19.13

Craig 

Somewhat facetiously I know the last chapter of our book I just don’t know all the pages between today and then and so we’re still telling our story. We’re writing our story. We. We’re constantly looking and saying what can we do? better. How do we make our kitchens a little bit bigger without sacrificing dining space. So again, a little long winded but the the architecture is more predicated on constantly trying to be better operationally and then that turns into aesthetically.

22:38.58

vigorbranding

You Yeah, they go.

22:54.46

Craig 

You know, something different for for each and every store.

22:54.73

vigorbranding

Um.

22:59.18

Craig 

Yeah, but that goes back to also you know like we we have this we have this menu item ah in Indianapolis which one which is our most recent restaurant. It’s called killer grill trip. So amazing. It’s awesome. It has nothing to do with Indianapolis and so you know sometimes people will say well.

23:07.66

vigorbranding

And the menus a little different depending on the location too correct.

23:18.14

Craig 

You know the menu caters to the local clientele. Yes, and no I think all of our food caters to the local clientele. It’s it’s straightforward. You know, casual American themed themed restaurant. But I think again, it’s more about this innovation.

23:28.10

vigorbranding

Um, and who is.

23:36.24

Craig 

Putting our chefs to work constantly exploring new taste buds and and trying also as we’ve gotten bigger to overlap use of product so that we’re not bringing in just 1 item for 1 menu but really trying to see if we can expand upon it. So The menu is also about constant curation of um tasting trying and ultimately it makes it onto to new bad news.

24:08.54

Craig 

Yeah, for well yeah, there’s there’s 14 day parts in a week and you could you could test me but I’ve been there I’ve done it and I still haven’t gotten sick of it. Yeah, but you should watch us at a tasting it tasing is fun to watch because.

24:15.95

vigorbranding

And as long as you like it because I think you said in 1 of your articles you you could eat there fourteen days in a row or something like that. Okay, yeah.

24:27.43

Craig 

You know what tastes right? to 1 person you taste off to another and it’s just so funny how you get into all the intricacies and just try to make the best product possible.

24:34.15

vigorbranding

Ah, that’s great. Let’s fantastic. Um, what? oh yeah, yeah.

24:41.91

Craig 

Yeah I mean you know the the costs are certainly you know continue to Rise and I think our business. It’s certainly a for profit business. Don’t get me wrong, but because we have a long horizon on how we.

24:50.12

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. What do you think is the best or the best The biggest challenge facing restaurants these days. What are you seeing is the biggest challenge.

25:01.35

Craig 

Look at the the company as a whole I think we could be a little bit more patient but you know the the costs continue to go up and you know we don’t just take price just because everybody else is and sort of keep up with those rising costs the wages.

25:06.40

vigorbranding

E no.

25:19.76

Craig 

Construction costs the the the day parts of delivery versus dine in work from home versus coming to the office all of those I think are real challenges I mean when you when you look at the business as a whole you’re just constantly competing with.

25:24.48

vigorbranding

In here.

25:39.59

Craig 

With your next door neighbor and we don’t want to cut costs just to get more bodies inside of the restaurant. We really want to maintain our integrity. We want to maintain our value on the plate. We don’t want to trim down on. The the quality or the specs that we offer and so I think what we’re blessed with is this long horizon but the the costs right now are definitely the most challenging part of our business.

26:01.47

vigorbranding

Moon.

26:22.26

vigorbranding

Yeah I mean that that makes an awful lot of sense. Sorry, let’s have some fun. So ah, back to your your sixth grade. Ah, ah you meet Alan Bernstein and you write a report. Okay and it’s for school.

26:24.60

Craig 

I Mostly gotten help from my mom there.

26:34.10

vigorbranding

Ah, you interviewed Allen in the report and you asked them really I’ll say some really incredible questions I’ll say for a 12 year old it was good. In fact, there are better questions. Ah okay, that’s a good mom right there and I would say there’ are actually better questions that I’m asking you so I mean but yeah, you got lots of credit for that or your mom does I should say.

26:34.66

Craig 

Yeah.

26:50.14

vigorbranding

So um, I’m going to ask you the same questions and and I want to see I mean let’s see if you answer them the same way that Allen answered them in his ah in his ah ah in his answers in the report. So the modern day you let’s go when you hire a manager and people ah to work for for you. What do you look for.

26:55.12

Craig 

Yeah, you know number 1 is genuine friendliness I mean one of the pillars of our company is genuine hospitality and I think the way somebody presents themselves and um, the. The truthfulness in the way that they engage it really tells everything we can teach you how to run one of our restaurants we can put you through our sixteen week training program and teach you all the different intricacies from the kitchen to the front of house but genuine friendliness is. Is something that can’t be taught.

27:45.59

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. Allen’s answer was very very similar and it’s’s I think it’s it’s dead on because I would do this all day long up and down I look for attitude. This is what he said and the ability to communicate and I get such a huge thing I taught my kids I mean my my daughters. The 1 thing I got instilled in them. Ah, being very young I said look you got to look people in the eye. You’ve got to talk to them. Don’t be afraid tell them what you think just be sincere and communication skills are are huge. All right next question at what point did you know to expand now you asked this of Allen and I’ll see what the.

28:06.55

Craig 

Yeah, yeah, you know the the business the business model always was to have more than one. Um, so store 2 for example in Chicago we signed that lease before store one opened.

28:20.29

vigorbranding

But your answer would be.

28:22.40

Craig 

And that was probably the most dangerous part of the whole business because store one if I could tell you the war stories that we had there would be unbelievable. So I think we knew to expand once we got store 1 and 2 under under our our footing.

28:33.40

vigorbranding

Wow.

28:41.40

Craig 

And we felt like the team was able to grow from within and we were able to start promoting hourly employees to managers managers to general managers general managers to new Store Openers and so I think the the growth from within from a people standpoint. I think put us in ah in a confident position to start growing the business.

29:12.63

Craig 

Um, and keep in mind he was swapping to a 10 year old

29:14.10

vigorbranding

Very good. His answer was because I had a plan for how many to build so sometimes sometimes that could be revisionist history right? Like you know he’s just giving you like he’s 1 word like these little short sentence answers. It sounded pretty like he had all figured out. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true.

29:21.10

Craig 

Um, yeah, yeah and I did gain about 60 stores at the time by then.

29:28.50

Craig 

Yeah I’ll show you my American Airlines travel app you know we’re traveling we’re we’re in the restaurants we’re we’re engaging with the team. We’re engaging with guests. We’re doing. You know we’re doing constant evaluations on food and service.

29:30.25

vigorbranding

But I think he’s trying to impress you by the the way he’s throwing these these answers down. So how do you maintain? How do you maintain the quality of all your restaurants.

29:48.29

Craig 

But I think that’s a little bit. You know it sort of comes from um you know, really trying to give the general managers ownership of their restaurants and so even if we’re in 1 restaurant today. We’re still not in 8 other restaurants and if we’re we’re in 1 store.

29:48.57

vigorbranding

Ah.

30:07.81

Craig 

And so I think it really comes down to letting the general managers you know own their business operate it like it was their 4 walls and you know we we do a lot of follow ups. We try to give them the tools to be successful. Um, but ultimately I think the.

30:09.19

vigorbranding

Are 8

30:26.20

Craig 

The the businesses is as successful as the people who who run them and that’s really where we spend a lot of time and emphasis. Um on trying to grow.

30:41.70

Craig 

Ah, well I think what’s fun about my job is you can have a ah day that is the easiest day in the world and everything is just moving right? along and nothing comes up and then you can have another day where it seems like nothing’s going right.

30:45.10

vigorbranding

Um, yeah, that’s excellent, all right? So how challenging is your job.

30:59.40

Craig 

And so I think the the job is gonna always ebb and flow. Um, it’s gonna always have peaks and valleys I think the the what I try to focus on now is not getting you know too far deep into the valleys and let that. 1 instant Trump or overshadow all the positives that we have going on so the the job is challenging. But I think any job is challenging and and I think our our job is equally rewarding.

31:32.76

vigorbranding

In here.

31:34.28

Craig 

For as challenging as it is and we can go to a restaurant and we could see all the smiling faces and we can see all the repeat guests that we’re so privileged to serve and I think seeing that in real time helps to offset. Maybe some of the challenges that you know running running restaurants come with.

31:52.75

vigorbranding

In who.

32:00.47

Craig 

Ah, ah, ah.

32:04.11

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah, that’s great. That’s great. Allan answered that by my job is very challenging because I’m always trying to be on the top’ ah, that’s great. That’s great. You know and but you know with some of the things you say my. My family’s always had restaurants. My brother-in-law ah runs a restaurant now in ah in a small town in Pennsylvania and it’s sort of like the it’s sort of like the community center of the town and to me it’s it’s kind of really cool. In fact, so much so that he put up pictures black and white photographs from the old town. Historical picture. So people who come in and look at them and as crazy as it sounds. It’s the same people like night after night night after night they’re in there regularly, some people are in there every day some people are in there like once a week on the same night. They eat the same things. It’s just like I don’t know it’s it’s a really unique thing and and boy if you can get that.

32:57.48

Craig 

Yeah, no to to totally I mean I think I think for us, you know we’re trying to you know again as we write our story and and you know history will be able to look back and determine Ultimately what type of restaurant we created. But I think.

32:57.68

vigorbranding

And get that kind of patronage. It’s just a wonderful thing and they’re all like friends and it’s just it’s just wild you end up like you said you take care of these folks and you you treat them right? and and they have a great experience and it just becomes ah a part of their life. It’s pretty cool, pretty cool.

33:13.30

Craig 

You know the the goal is to kind of be the the community neighborhood restaurant with some you know chain systems that make the experience consistent from visit to visit and and I think if we can do that and go into these markets.

33:14.71

vigorbranding

You know.

33:25.27

vigorbranding

Um.

33:28.63

vigorbranding

E.

33:32.37

Craig 

And be a place where the community can come after soccer games on the weekends and come after graduations and come for date night or come with the family I mean those are the types of memories that ultimately growing up. We always went to. The local restaurant for different experiences each time if Doc Bees can become that consistently. Um in each location that we have I think that you know that that’s ultimately what I think our mission is is inevitably going to be.

34:05.20

vigorbranding

3

34:18.24

Craig 

Yeah, yeah, well I’ll say this way I know nothing else. So I my only answer is yes you know what what I try not to do now is I I don’t try to get caught up so much in the everyday.

34:19.68

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. So the last question in your question for him and I’m going to answer it that and you can I want to know your answer if you could start all over would you stay in the same business and and of course ah Alan said yes I love it. What’s your answer Greg.

34:35.27

Craig 

Because I think if you get caught up in the everyday you can become overwhelmed I mean the the daily grind of business in general and specifically the restaurant business can definitely overwhelm somebody and so what I try really now to do is be be a couple of.

34:46.17

vigorbranding

Who.

34:53.75

Craig 

Couple of steps ahead and think about you know where we’re trying to go with the business and the growth and the team be thankful for the past and all of those experiences ah have got us to hear and so my answer is yes I would do it all over again. Just sometimes wish that you know the the lessons that I’m now learning 10 years into it came a little earlier and I’m sure in ten more years I’ll wish what I know then I thought about now and just to kind of get through some of the more challenging days.

35:14.83

vigorbranding

Right? well.

35:23.30

vigorbranding

It’s awesome.

35:33.83

Craig 

Yeah, the next restaurant is under construction in Carry North Carolina which is adjacent to Raleigh in the Durham area. Super excited about it. It’s a new lifestyle center called Fenton and I think um, you know’s it’s it’s going to thrive and in that again.

35:39.20

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah, no doubt So what’s next for duck bees. Any new markets anything new and exciting coming up.

35:49.42

Craig 

Neighborhood community environment and then from there you know, sort of like slow and steady wins the race you know one 2 restaurants a year looking across across the country where we think what we know has worked up until this point can.

35:51.23

vigorbranding

Um, yeah.

36:01.37

vigorbranding

Me.

36:07.92

Craig 

Hit the repeat button and work again, you know it’s amazing. The the people and the team and the real estate is really the recipe for success and if we can get those 2 things right over and over and over.

36:08.61

vigorbranding

Yeah.

36:17.70

vigorbranding

Like.

36:24.37

Craig 

I Think we’re gonna have a really successful business on our hands. Yeah.

36:38.96

Craig 

You know I wish I could give you some like crazy over the top like grand answer for that. But the truth is I would have 2 slices of New York pizza and I’d have it served with a Coca-cola.

36:40.19

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. No no, no argument there all right? So your very last question. Okay and can’t be your restaurant even though I know you love your food. Ah if you had 1 final meal. What would you eat and why.

36:56.36

Craig 

And I would go to any pizzerie in New York city it doesn’t need to be Joe’s or John’s or Rays could be anywhere I’d sit at the counter I’d take some greasy ah parmesan cheese and red chillli flake and poured on my two slice of pizza and.

37:10.21

vigorbranding

Yeah e.

37:13.60

Craig 

I would be in heaven. And how I old in Chicago so I hope I don’t get out.

37:19.59

vigorbranding

Um, yeah, it’s not a bad answer me and I’ll tell you there’s something about New York pizza that’s tough to beat. So listen I yeah yeah, right.

37:26.84

Craig 

There.

37:37.23

vigorbranding

And they do that fixed off you know I like a nice nice thin New York pizza you know so hey Craig you were awesome I really appreciate this. It was a lot of fun I mean obviously I never got to meet your father but I can tell you I know he’d be really proud of this and it’s a shame. He didn’t get to see.

37:40.42

Craig 

That’s very small.

37:47.22

Craig 

Thank you for having me Michael this was great.

37:52.30

vigorbranding

What you’ve created and and and even Allen I mean it would Allen I’m sure would just be thrilled to death so that’s that’s all great stuff. Thank you? So so much for your time I really enjoyed talking to you all right? buddy.

Embassy Ingredients combines creativity and science to provide its customers with the very best innovative flavors and bakery ingredients available. 

Embassy Ingredients has an on-site flavor lab and full bakery test kitchen staffed with certified flavorists, food scientists and bakery specialists.They formulate, test and manufacture a wide range of flavors and bakery ingredients ensuring that taste, quality and performance are built into every product.

Natural ingredients and colors have taken over, with nearly 80% of flavors and ingredients being natural. Using high quality, natural ingredients is something Embassy Ingredients has been focused on for many years. 

It is possible to have indulgence AND clean labels. Many products that are indulgent and taste great have clean labels. The technology today allows for the use of natural ingredients that taste as good or better than the artificial ingredients of the past. 

The typical Embassy customer takes 12-18 months to launch a new product. For that reason, tracking trends that are in the earliest stages and will still be relevant a year from now is important.

]“When I started, I was the only employee. I got the orders in the morning, made them in the afternoon, delivered them the next day and got more orders.” (Martino)

“As a 17 year old kid I found out that persistence and perseverance were the personality traits you need as an entrepreneur.” (Martino) 

“In the 90s I’d say about 80% of the flavors that were sold were artificial and 20% were natural. Right now it’s about 80% natural and 20% artificial.” (Martino) 

“We’ve always tried to keep the junk out of mixes. Just because you’re buying something you want to indulge in, doesn’t mean it has to be completely unhealthy for you.” (Martino)

“If it’s not needed inside the product, why put it in?” (Martino) 

“When you indulge, it better be good. You don’t want something that’s being made as inexpensively as possible.” (Martino) 

“Every crisis you face you learn some new business skills you didn’t know you had.” (Martino) 

“During a crisis (like COVID), people eat more sweets than in a non-crisis.” (Martino)

“If you taste test new recipes for a living, you get really good at tasting without eating.” (Martino) 

00:01.76

vigorbranding

Today’s guest is someone who knows a lot about ingredients a lot about flavor trends and a lot about baked goods. He’s Martino Babila and he’s the founder and president of embassy ingredients welcome to show Martino and thank you very much for joining us. So.

00:13.47

Martino

Thank you Michael thanks for being glad to be on the show.

00:18.41

vigorbranding

Yep, So tell everyone you know a little bit about Embassy ingredients. What’s your mission and what do you guys? do.

00:21.59

Martino

So embassy ingredients is centered on the bakery trace so we supply ingredients to large scale bakeries. So we have a side of our business that makes flavors and a side that makes the industrial version you might say of a Duncan hides cake mix. So when you go off to your supermarket or to Dunkin Donuts or Starbucks you’ll find our ingredients and a lot of the baker that you’re going to be buying at those qsars or supermarkets.

00:47.54

vigorbranding

Fantastic I like in forktails we talk about food and beverage right? So restaurants you know cpg all of the like. But what’s really kind of cool about you and your businesses is you make the flavors and the reasons we go to restaurants reason we buy Cpg is because we like the way stuff tastes we like the way they prepare their food and you guys are. Kind of the secret ingredient if you will ah in in behind it all. So my first question I’ve known you for a long time but I actually found this out and did not realize it so I think this is fantastic and a great way to start I love I love stories. Um, you know I started my agency. Ah my first advertising agency when I was 27 I thought that was really young. Ah, but you took over your father’s company as owner and president when you were seventeen years old ah you know and when I was 17 I was probably getting in trouble for speeding with my my new driver’s license. So I mean I can’t imagine ah starting and running a company at that point in time. Can you can you tell tell us that story how how does someone start a company or take over a company at 17.

01:45.63

Martino

But it started actually 2 years before that my dad pulled me out of school when it was in grade eleven. So technically I never graduated high school and I started a company with my brother and I and my dad so the 3 of us started up a business that was mostly distribution. My dad had a hobby of. Bringing in these flavors from italy diluting them with simple syrup which is water and sugar and we used to sell them to bakeries up and down the street. All these small italian bakeries that were all over toronto. These toronto is a large italian community Two years later my brother went off and started directing television commercials. He’s in video art. He’s done pretty well though he’s ah he did the the graphics for the sphere for the u 2 concert. Yeah and my dad and I didn’t really see I eye on how to run a business because he wanted to have a business with no employees and the business was going bankrupt.

02:28.68

vigorbranding

Um, yeah, very cool.

02:39.68

Martino

So my dad left and I took over a $5000 a year business so that was our total sales or remember at that point and I had a j two thousand wagon to do my deliveries in so there wasn’t a lot of speeding going on in that j two thousand bag and I think if I floored that sucker it wasn’t going over 60

02:44.82

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah.

02:54.12

vigorbranding

A.

02:59.43

Martino

Yeah, So so that’s how the business started I was the only employee basically got the orders in the morning made them in the afternoon delivered them again the next day got more orders we slowly ah slowly grew the business started making our own flavors started getting into bakery Mixes. Bought used equipment from a company that went bankrupt and we started blending our own cake mixes for these bakeries and then as we grew we started getting into more industrial customers and then our business model kind of evolved into dealing with the larger and larger bakeries and the big product Launches. So. And where I really learn how to run a business is that as a 70 year old kid I found that but persistence and Perseverance really are what is the personality trait you need as an entrepreneur like without that you’re not going to make it but then I went back to school in my forty s.

03:48.31

vigorbranding

Any man.

03:55.33

Martino

I went to a class called opm at Harvard and it’s ah nine weeks of schooling at Harvard is three weeks every year over three years that’s when I joined ypo because about 20% of but classmates were Ypr is and organization that we both belong to learn how to develop a business model learn how to really run a company rather than just ah, having a job in grunt work and building a business that way and really expanded the business after that and and that’s when we really broke into. Um, you might say we deal with all the largest bakeries in North America right now. So our products are going to be in your baked goods whenever you want to indulge. It’s probably something of mine is in something you’re eating during the week

04:34.64

vigorbranding

Um.

04:42.92

vigorbranding

Yeah I heard you say it before and that’s that’s amazing like there’s probably everybody in in the country at USCanada and I think South America said too that they they taste your products you’re you’re you’re in there. You’re in their bread or their their cupcake or their.

04:53.66

Martino

And Natural America. Yeah.

05:00.66

vigorbranding

They’re muffin somewhere right.

05:00.74

Martino

And we’re also some global launches with some retailers so we produce the product mostly North America sometimes we export it internationally. So there’s some of our products that are going all over the globe and global launches.

05:15.55

vigorbranding

That’s Great. You know I think it’s It’s really Interesting. You brought up about I’ll say either Ypo or I’ll just see entrepreneurs as a whole the folks I talked to on this program are all like presidents or or ceos of of companies. A lot of them are entrepreneurs. Um. Everyone seems to have by and large the same store I think I think a lot of people just think oh you know? Yeah yeah, you were highly Educated. You came from money. Ah you were handed this opportunity and that’s quite the opposite like pretty much everybody has that same thing in common that they they grind it out. They they started at the bottom they had an idea. They didn’t have any money they they just they they just pushed and I think that’s the that is the secret sauce and and absolutely every one of these great like ah stories I get to hear you know everybody just kind of pushes and pushes and pushes and and doesn’t give up I mean I’m sure you faced a lot of ah adversity. Ah, can you talk a little bit about some of the things that that you bumped up against.

06:11.56

Martino

Well, you know what I had 0 money when I took it over and at 17 you can’t even legally book get a loan from the bank because I wasn’t eighteen yet. So my only line of credit was a credit card that the bank manager was able to give me I had no help from anybody including my family actually. 1 thing that 1 thing that drove me a lot in terms of adversity was my dad’s parting words when he left was I’ll be bankrupt in six months so the thing is if I don’t think he meant it that way but that inspired me to never throw in the towel. Ah and and that’s part of my personality is.

06:45.48

vigorbranding

Um.

06:50.75

Martino

I I will never give up I just just before this podcast I just got off a call with one of our largest customers and we’re trying to work on a big new program with them and at the end of the phone call I tell them well 1 thing you’ll notice about embassy we’re very persistent and he just started laughing and he goes yes I’ve noticed that.

07:08.87

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic Hey you got to be a bulldog.

07:09.69

Martino

To this day. Yeah to this data and what if if there’s one trait that will make an entrepreneur successful or any business leader successful is persistence.

07:20.27

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah, we call it being bulldoggged here I mean we we all ah, that’s our mascot and it’s sort of our attitude you got to just be. You know you got to be bulldoggged about stuff just don’t give up and keep pushing forward. So that’s that’s awesome advice. Um all right? So let’s jump into the business thing here. Let’s talk about. Ah, the clean labels in the 80 s and 90 s people didn’t care about additives preservatives artificial colors as long as the finished products tasted good and that’s no longer the case right? So how how much of a challenge has that been to keep up with the demand for cleaner ingredients.

07:49.18

Martino

Well let me give you an example on the flavor side back in the 90 s I’d say 80% of all the flavors were sold were artificial and 20% more natural I think right now it’s about 80% natural 20% artificial

08:03.90

vigorbranding

Me.

08:06.83

Martino

And that also has gone to the color side. Um, the challenge. There’s a challenge there. There’s a cost increase in some cases but not always ah but at this point here after doing it for so many years. It’s quite simple to switch a product from Being. An artificially flavored and colored product to at least the natural flavors. The colors are more of a challenge. Ah, but that also could be done now. But that’s the most costly part is the is the color side. Um in terms of clean label in terms of what you’re Eating. We actually have fun in that like like.

08:35.98

vigorbranding

You.

08:43.98

Martino

We’ve always tried to keep the junk out of our mixes only because you’re buying something that you want to indulge in doesn’t mean it has to be completely unhealthy for you and we’ve always thought about if it’s not needed inside the product. Why put it it so we’ve always looked at keeping a shorter ingredient deck. Keeping it natural and even there we’ve done a lot of very old natural products that we launched over the last few years

09:07.73

vigorbranding

So so you can’t have indulgence in clean labels right? I mean even though we’re talking cakes and cookies people. You know they they want to watch what they eat but they can still have clean labels right.

09:19.50

Martino

Oh absolutely actually some of my favorite products that you find in the store shelf that are indulgent and taste great. Our clean label. Um, so in the 70 s the technology wasn’t there to make them clean label. And give the conditions that you need in the supermarket. For example, if if you produce a big good Today. You have to make it freeze it and then it has to go to the supermarket and then the supermarket typically wants to thaw the product and have it on the shelf for up to eight days so that customers can buy bring it over and it still tastes good. In the 70 s the technology wasn’t there to do that. Naturally the technology is there now that using natural ingredients you can achieve that and you can actually make it tasted better than using an artificial ingredients.

10:00.40

vigorbranding

5

10:06.61

vigorbranding

Very cool. So I mean talking about trends um you and I met probably years and years ago and I would do the food and beverage trends presentation at ypo and ah for ah for anybody that’s listening would would care if they go to cheers at quench agency. dotcomthey can download our food and beverage trends presentation. It’s free. We have several years we always have the most updated on the website so that’s always there so that’s how that’s how you and I met and but the thing that we had in common right? away was was talking about trends and I know that you follow them very closely.

10:39.50

Martino

Up.

10:41.18

vigorbranding

Um, the way we always looked at it. There’s innovators who are really super early on a train then there’s early adopters early majority and then late majority and then obviously laggards We’re always obviously trying to be in the forefront. Um, when I do a Trends presentation. It’s like sometimes people are like well I’ve already heard of that. Well. If No one had heard of it before at all, it certainly wouldn’t be a trend so you want to catch that early edge of it. Talk about like how you look at Trends because you’ve told me before a lot of times your flavor profiles and things like That. You’re just listening you’re watching and and again I think you’ve always said too. You want to be on the early side of it because till you can get it to Market. Ah, if you know if you wait til the the the late majority will hell it’s too late I mean it’s ah you you know it’s It’s past it’srying.

11:21.79

Martino

Hey look even inside the company here at embassy we have a lot of the dates about trends and how do we do the market research. So our typical customer takes 12 to 18 months to launch a product from the time we present it.

11:36.65

vigorbranding

E.

11:39.22

Martino

Or they request a presentation which means that if you’re trying to grab a trend that’s already out there. They’re going to be at the at after the peak. So it’s about looking at the trends that are up and coming and.

11:52.15

vigorbranding

E.

11:56.11

Martino

That really makes us that the most successful products that we’ve launched have been with companies that haven’t done focus groups that haven’t done the mentel research in terms of these are because if you wait eighteen months after that comes out, you’re you’re getting the tail end of the trend.

12:14.11

vigorbranding

That’s right.

12:14.20

Martino

You’re getting already where you’re going to be losing money on it. The most successful launches we have is when you’re scouring social media. You’re looking at what’s happening at the local small bakeries when you’re going to the trade shows and you’re looking at the booths that couldn’t afford the the really good area in the middle.

12:27.60

vigorbranding

Ah.

12:32.94

Martino

And they’re right at the back corner and these entrepreneurial companies that are really hungry and come up with this novel little product. Ah those where you get the ideas for the really good trends and then you have to then you have to sort out all these trends that you’ve seen and all these ideas These people are having of which.

12:40.70

vigorbranding

Um.

12:52.48

Martino

I’d say 80% will fail and not really become a mass Market trend and then hopefully pick the right one to say this one’s got legs. Let’s really present it to our customers and when we have customers that don’t want to go to the focus groups because. A lot of those trends will fail in the focus group because we’re showing that the customer somebody. They’ve never seen before but when people are willing to take a chance and say this is up and Coming. We’ve seen great results coming out the other end.

13:15.24

vigorbranding

Who.

13:26.11

vigorbranding

Very Cool. So How how do you balance that? How do you bounce between ah a trending exotic flavor and say something that’s familiar like comfort food so you mean at the end of the day. Sometimes you just want a really good chocolate chip cookie or a blueberry muffin I mean how does that work like how much how do you decide how much of these exotics. Or how much of ah ah say a flyer. Do you take on some of these new flavors.

13:48.23

Martino

Yeah, it’s like the basics are easy to sell and they’re always going to be a mass market item and they’re going to get great sales out of them and you could tweak those a little bit so sometimes if you don’t want to take too much risk. You can do a tweak on a basic. And then you can get on a new trend with a tweak on a basic um or you can try experimenting with ltos so a lot of our customers will try with ltls like so it reduces the risk factor and they can see if it’s something that can go mainstream and they can make it go all year round. And they come in with a three month lto project but it’s it’s really listening to the noise in the media and going around to different parts of the world and seeing what’s trending there because the us is going to get the trends usually after Europe and after asia gets them it depending the community you’re trying to Target. And it’s really listening what’s coming out of there and trying to grab um to it at the right point.

14:48.74

vigorbranding

Very cool. So if if you can tell me what are some of the trends you’re tracking now like in terms of ingredients and maybe recipe development is there anything. That’s that you’re looking at that you think is pretty cool, exciting and new.

14:59.41

Martino

Well, the stuff that’s coming out sometimes it’s not as exciting as new as I would like it to be but sometimes yeah and and you know what every year we publish a little pit thing that we send out to everybody like at like and at the end of 2023

15:06.61

vigorbranding

But it sells.

15:17.84

Martino

What other transfer 2024 and it sounds like oh my my god embassy’s got a crystal ball though. The reality is is our customers are always launching 12 to 18 months out. We already know what’s trending for 2024 because it’s already in the pipeline. So.

15:28.84

vigorbranding

Who.

15:32.32

Martino

What’s really trending for next year is a lot of basics. It seems like coming out of covid everybody wants comfort foods. Ah everybody wants to get into what their what their grandmother used to make into that comfort and so on ah, there’s a lot of indulgence where they wanted a lot richer to though.

15:36.13

vigorbranding

Her.

15:51.67

Martino

So they want something with a lot of richness. So if if people trending wise are trying to get healthier in general like there’s a there’s a push right now where people are drinking a little bit less alcohol people are trying to get a little bit healthier but people still want to indulge so when before.

16:10.40

vigorbranding

Um.

16:11.62

Martino

A lot of customers would want. Okay, how inexpensive can we make this There’s a little bit more of a push for quality so that with the clean label push is also coming to push where if I’m going to consume eight hundred calories I want it to be worth the one hour on the treadmill I’m going not to pay for this. And it’s going to taste really good and there’s nothing wrong with indulging once’s in a wild no matter what diet or you’ on you have you need to indulge or also there’s nothing long term to going to happen. But when you indulge it better be good. You don’t want to have something that had 3 cost cutting projects done before it. And it’s being made as inexpensively as possible so people are trending more. They’ll spend a little bit more money but by a smaller portion and that’s one trend that I really am supporting because everybody would rather sell quality than something that doesn’t have that quality behind it.

16:55.82

vigorbranding

And.

17:07.97

vigorbranding

Yeah I mean that makes sense absolutely so I mean you started your business. You’re 17 you’ve you’ve obviously seen a lot of challenges 2008 covid and I’m sure there’s ah, a million in between. Um. Like what are some of the the biggest challenges you’ve gone through I know you’ve said that the the covid pandemic is your biggest professional accomplishment were there others before that you want to talk a little bit about that and go into the whole covid thing. What you did there.

17:32.82

Martino

Oh I guess the the big the last time before covid that was a great learning process every every crisis Trust me, you learned some new business skills. You never thought you had was 2008 financial crisis like and for about three months or sales went down 50% because none of our customers knew what to buy or if to buy anything and so on and it ended up just being a depletion of supply chain because what we found that that during a crisis people actually more sweets than in a non-crisis so business rebounded very fast after that.

18:05.40

vigorbranding

That’s right? so.

18:11.59

Martino

Um, during Covid The biggest issue was supply chain. Okay, that’s that’s probably with everybody else. It was a matter of how do we keep our customers supplied and how do we keep their operations going and how do they continue supplying their customers and how do we get the food of the table.

18:14.36

vigorbranding

Are.

18:30.63

Martino

Ah, for the people that need it. So That’s where the challenges were so it was a lot of prioritizing reformulting sometimes they use less of an ingredient that we use to use inside of a product we we we try to see. Okay, can we substitute it with other ingredients and bypass the shortage of this one ingredient So There was a lot of R and D work being done on that. Um, a lot of tough decisions like we had to abandon some of our expert Markets. We decided to focus in on our.

18:58.36

vigorbranding

My head.

19:06.70

Martino

Canadian and us and Mexican customers and abandoned some of the other markets a little bit more than we had were’re aggressively pursuing before we stepped back until supply supply chain caught up and now we were reengaging again.

19:19.45

vigorbranding

Did you feel like the supply chains are catching up. You feel like that’s getting better.

19:23.37

Martino

Supply chains are catching up in most parts. What’s happening now to us is global warming so supply chain seems to be catching up and then you get an email that there’s a drought in Africa so in the ivory coast.

19:40.34

vigorbranding

Myth.

19:41.60

Martino

So now you can’t get cocoa so you’re gonna everybody’s gonna be seeing if there’s anything chocolate on the shelf that’s going to probably go up 30 to 50% in price and in some cases you want to even be able to find it so the world cocos and chocolate supply just went down 30%

19:49.39

vigorbranding

Wow.

19:59.66

vigorbranding

The.

20:00.24

Martino

Because of one drought. So we’re finding a lot of the challenges that we’re having right now is all due to global warming and crisis happening in certain parts of the world and then mitigating the supply challenge of that ingredient that got affected.

20:15.21

vigorbranding

Incredible. Um, so I mean okay during Covid I mean there was the shutdown at home baking was a big trend Certainly that’s not bad for you but but it certainly you probably do but even better with the store bought bake goods and things like that is that correct.

20:28.63

Martino

Well at Home Beagle was terrible for us. We don’t have anything that is for the at home baker. Ah we only supply the large bakeries that will supply all your qsrs and your supermarkets.

20:33.69

vigorbranding

Um, ah.

20:39.14

vigorbranding

So you’re not in any mixes you’re just in the actual the finished product got it.

20:44.74

Martino

Yeah, we’re in we’re in the finished product. So covid even the work from home was now good for us because a lot of the sales like you can use. Ah, let’s say Duncan as an example like a lot of people will get a coffee on their way to the office and then when they get their coffee. They’ll also get a muffin.

20:56.47

vigorbranding

Um.

21:03.28

Martino

Or they’ll get a bagel. But if you’re not going to the office. You might not leave your house to get the coffee and if you’re not getting the coffee. You’re also not getting the muffin or bagel or donut So the work from Home. Ah. Also affected the business and where the customer shop because it went into the supermarket rather than the qsrs. So. It’s a matter of finding out where the new outlet is.

21:30.25

vigorbranding

Yeah, the work from home thing is still affecting everybody I know that it’s ah it’s just a whole different animal and there’s a lot of real estate out there. That’s sitting empty and it’s just ah, it’s changed how we are. It’s ah it’s interesting to see how this all evolves. Um, so.

21:44.10

vigorbranding

You know?? Ah well I’m going to go back to another another question so in in your on your website it says here if you’re an employee of of Embassy you get bakery treats galore all right. So that is a perk right? So if someone was starting Tomorrow. What would they find are there bakely treats. Ah bakekery treat school or waiting for them.

22:03.70

Martino

Oh absolutely like ah so how we work our quality department is that every time we make a batch of anything we test a batch and we actually make the finish cake so we have ah.

22:15.87

Martino

Endless amount of baked goods coming out of our bakery testing the products that we made that is free to take for any any of their employees to take home with them. Take it home to their family and so on and then depending on your job function. But any ah, any employee gets invited to this. We’re always developing new products in R and D and we’re always looking for people to taste the products and give us feedback so in some job Functions. You have to be eating sweets every day. So for some people is a dream Job. So.

22:47.35

vigorbranding

Um.

22:50.93

Martino

You get really good at tasting and not eating. Okay, so so because first you join embassy then you get what I call the embassy 15 ah, then you realize that okay I only had to take a bite out of that muffin I didn’t have to eat the whole muffin to taste it. Then you go back to just a bite and you get back regular but then you sometimes you get these really great. We just finished a project that just got approved last week is goingnna be a national launch later on this year at the in the us and.

23:11.16

vigorbranding

Ah, there.

23:25.27

Martino

It hit the sweet spot for exactly what I like I mean it was right down to bullseye for stuff that I have a weakness for it is the first time in a year that not only did I not taste I was actually actively asking r and d can you tell me when it comes out of the oven and make an next round for me. Ah.

23:43.28

vigorbranding

Ah, ah so now you’re gonna put on put on the 15 is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, never trust a skinny baker right? Then that end that what they say.

23:44.22

Martino

Boy yeah I put on the 15 but you know what when it’s that good. The 15 is well worth it. You know what? like I said it’s it’s worth every every calorie at one point. How offs absolutely like what 1 baker 1 time was patting his belly and said this is my r and d department.

24:04.33

vigorbranding

Ah, that’s fantastic. That’s fantastic, Fantastic all right? So I’m going to test you with some rapid fire questions here on your baked goods I Want to know your personal favorites. Okay, so pancakes or waffles all right I would agree with that spongecake or angel food cake.

24:17.72

Martino

Waffles. Okay, when I was 10 years old. There would be angel food cake Now let’s say sponge cake.

24:24.77

vigorbranding

Yeah I agree with that multigreen bread or white bread. Yeah same here donuts are danish.

24:31.50

Martino

Multigrain.

24:36.46

Martino

Oh nice east straight donut. Ah so good brownies and oh and there’s 2 There’s also 2 camps in brownies. There’s the kki brownie people and the chewy brownie people.

24:36.71

vigorbranding

And we’re we’re exactly in the same line here cookies or brownies. No.

24:53.73

vigorbranding

Um I see that’s that’s great. That’s great. Yeah I prefer the chewy browning myself I Totally agree with that and you know it’s funny. You had said earlier too about how.

24:53.74

Martino

And the world is split fifty fifty and I’m a chewy brownie person.

25:07.42

vigorbranding

You know when there’s issues with the economy suites go up. Um, you know we we worked in the ice cream category for many many years and that was absolutely the case you know you worry about like oh discretionary spending is going to go down. People aren’t going to spend money on grocery. They’re going to cut back just to the necessities. Ice cream is definitely a necessity. Any suite is a necessity when the when the economy’s in trouble. So that’s something we learned a long time ago I got 1 one last question I’m throwing a curve ballll here I’ve being a tang guy this is this is intriguing to me. There’s obviously dough which is you know in your breads and everything and I’m a italian I love bread.

25:41.50

Martino

Um.

25:41.55

vigorbranding

And then there’s there’s batter right in your pastries batter or batter or dough if you had to pick one or the other you can’t have anything ever again. Okay, all right I’d buy good dough. That’s bad. It’s forever where we’d split there well but basically you should.

25:47.63

Martino

I go for the batter know I got a sweet tooth I got a sweet do in the gold sauce suit.

26:00.84

vigorbranding

Yeah, you you you basically should so okay, a couple last questions here I you I know you have a really busy. You said you’re on the road for like three weeks four weeks busy trade shows what? what trade shows? Do you go to like what you know and where do you find that you’re observing some of the cutting edge, edge flavors and food trends are they international shows they more national or.

26:14.30

Martino

I.

26:19.82

vigorbranding

I Mean where are you going and what are you seeing and why.

26:20.36

Martino

Is it’s a combination of international and national shows like in the us you got the fancy food show you you have 2 of them and they happen in the states and again where we find value is all the middle of the show. You’ve already seen all that stuff.

26:25.42

vigorbranding

Access.

26:35.41

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah.

26:37.99

Martino

Like you’ve seen it on your website. You’ve seen it on every website you you want to look at those are stuff that stuff that’s been in the stores already or is about about to be launched. We’ve already heard of it I like the back corners and that new company booth.

26:46.69

vigorbranding

Um.

26:54.48

Martino

Area where all these new entrepreneurs are exhibiting their cl which you’re looking at finished products and that’s a more international show. There’s a nuga in Germany so we go to a lot of the international ones too because that gives us trends that are happening over there. Might be mainstream but they haven’t come to the us or Canada yet. So that gives us maybe a outlook going. Okay, which one is transportable and which one is not in our industry show. There’s like id to be a that’s a bakery show just for our industry. There’s Ibe and vegas that app is every three years

27:15.21

vigorbranding

Right.

27:25.23

vigorbranding

Me.

27:32.54

Martino

And there’s some industry shows that are just for bakery that are happening in Germany and France.

27:36.65

vigorbranding

Very cool, very cool all right. My last question for you Martino if you had 1 final meal. What would you eat and why and it can’t be 1 of your products. No can’t be 1 of your products. No no, no, you get off the grid here.

27:47.44

Martino

Well has to be 1 of my products well can’t be 1 of my product. Okay, so I’m I’m italian so I’d like every nationality of food I’ll try anything and I eat everything but at the end of the day I’m italian it’s going to be italian food.

27:55.67

vigorbranding

I know.

28:03.50

vigorbranding

There you go.

28:05.86

Martino

And it could be anything from a great plate of pasta to and like steak Turk Tar the italian style not the french style. There’s 2 different first styles I’m on the italian side of course and then also like fish crudo like it’s thinly sliced raw fish.

28:14.54

vigorbranding

Big difference. Yep.

28:24.14

Martino

It’s like the Italian version of the sushi.

28:27.25

vigorbranding

Um, absolutely, that’s fantastic. Well done is there a special restaurant something in Toronto is there is your is your go to for you.

28:34.36

Martino

Well, but the my favorite high end rest right? and to toronto that does italian food is a place called the nico ah it’s they have amazing high end italian food. But if you’re looking for like basic pastas and everything else. There’s a a mano pasta that’s it’s actually the a location in the train station but they have great pastas and you get them. They’re cheap and they’re really good. Ah, toronto’s going to half a million italians so it’s it’s hard to select 1 restaurant and I go to a lot of different restaurants and.

28:53.46

vigorbranding

Wow! yeah.

29:08.57

Martino

But that many Italians foods the culture.

29:10.75

vigorbranding

That’s it. That’s right amen that’s perfect Martino you were wonderful. It’s always a pleasure talking to you and and I always enjoy when we we get to hang out. So hopefully I’ll get to see you soon and I appreciate you being being a part of this all right buddy talk soon.

29:20.71

Martino

Thank you by Michael.

Livit Design is the leading design firm specialized in creating unique guest experiences in the Food & Beverage and all areas of Hospitality, Fitness and Retail sectors. For over 20 years, 

Livit has worked as strategic advisors to investors and global brands on design, operations, guest journey and guest experience with the focus on improving efficiency, profitability and increasing growth potential.

Livit Design bills itself as “a perfect mix of foodies, architects, interior designers, guest experience specialists, chefs, kitchen consultants, operations experts, entrepreneurs, graphic artists, DJ’s, visionaries and restaurant operators.” 

One of the projects Benjamin and Livit Design is working on is called The Line. Located in Saudi Arabia by the Red Sea, The Line is billed as the future of urban living. The 105-mile long structure is just 650 feet wide and will eventually be home to more than nine million people. It has no roads, cars or emissions and runs on 100% renewable energy. 

All great restaurant design has to touch the emotions of diners, but there’s not a magic wand that does that. Doing that requires great design and so many other touchpoints and factors. 

According to Ben, the hospitality industry is divided into two sides. One side focuses on convenience and the other is focused on experience. 

The Livit team is helping restaurant staff focus on hospitality by creating systems that automatically adjust sensory factors like scent and sound (music) to create better diner experiences. 

“I believe that one of the biggest differences between what we do and a regular design firm, but what’s really challenging is understanding the operations. How do you make sure that you create designs that are profitable? That’s where design really matters.” (Benjamin)

“It could be the scents, it could be the sounds, it could be the thickness of the menu. There are so many small details in creating that holistic experience.” (Benjamin) 

“Consumers are getting picky. You go out less. The bland experiences – trying to be everything to everyone – those are the brands that are really suffering. You need to be niche, you need to create a phenomenal experience and you need to be a driver.” (Benjamin) 

“Restaurant design is an investment, not a cost.” (Benjamin) 

“Brands that try to be everything to everyone – they’re audience is literally dying. That’s a struggle in a world where everything is becoming more specialized.” (Benjamin) 

“We’re going to see a lot more artificial intelligence (in restaurants and design). It’s going to be better than humans at a lot of the repetitive tasks. Whether that’s comps and analysis, restaurant layouts, optimization of spaces, etc.” (Benjamin) 

“I’m a lighting freak. I think lighting and acoustics are the two things that designers will often overlook and they’re not well taught in design schools.” (Benjamin) 

“The things you touch – the cutlery, the table, the chairs, the glassware, the plateware – those are the most important things.” (Benjamin) 

00:00.00

vigorbranding

Well hello today’s guest is someone at the forefront of restaurant design. His name is Ben Kaa I probably pronounced it wrong even though I practice and he’s the founder and chief experience officer at design the what’s amazing is every 8 hours a new live design restaurant opens somewhere in the world.

00:07.00

Ben

Are.

00:19.87

vigorbranding

Every 8 hours a new live at design restaurant opens somewhere in the world. It’s amazing which means he’s a pretty busy guy I think he traveled as much as any human being on earth and anyway so Benjamin welcome. Thank you so much for joining us I’m fascinated by what you do and your story.

00:24.68

Ben

If that.

00:36.43

Ben

Thanks Michael thanks for having me um I can I can maybe start with an anecdote. My daughter has an app that tracks my flights and she said hey dad. You know that you flew from the earth to the moon last year

00:47.81

vigorbranding

Wow, that’s right’s right? and your back probably hurts. You know I did 2 cities you know I was I started in in New York City yesterday afternoon I went to Atlanta for the.

00:50.10

Ben

And then I said yeah honey. But next year I have to fly back.

00:57.81

Ben

The.

01:06.23

vigorbranding

The rest of the day flew back to Harrisburg waiting day and I thought I did something which was ah nothing compared to what you’re doing there so but anyway, ah, but but but through your travels. Not only do you do brilliant work that I was able to witness some in person with you.

01:16.81

Ben

Um, yeah, are.

01:21.00

vigorbranding

Ah, but we get to see and learn about a lot. What’s going on in the world. So just first of all, tell us a little bit about live it design. You know how you started about you the whole beginnings.

01:32.40

Ben

Yeah, absolutely so I’m an architect by trade and started this company 98 which is what twenty seven years ago or something and always with the intention of becoming a 1 ne-stop shop for everything f and b um, it’s a strange company I would say I haven’t seen anything like it where we have. Chefs and operators and kitchen designers and equipment consultants but also architects and engineers and we have deejs and uniform designers. So. It’s really, ah, you know, really a 1 ne-stop shop for for anything and everything restaurant related and um, you know we maybe for the first you know. Five or six years we were mostly in Europe and then we’ve grown internationally we’re now in 45 countries. The us is our biggest market. Obviously it’s where we have most you know multi-unit restaurants. And that’s our focus we work a lot with private equity. We work a lot with you know the world’s biggest brands so sort of scalability and profitability are almost more important than you know collars and fabrics if you will.

02:32.45

vigorbranding

That’s great. That’s great and and you know it’s it’s cool because again some of the stuff and the style and design that you bring forth is is absolutely beautiful. But then you said it, you’re working with a lot of these large brands and I don’t think people might necessarily. I don’t know attach great architectural design to to the likes of like Starbucks Pizza Hut Taco Bell burger king things like that. But you work with all of them and then I think when people really do focus. They can see what the design is and and how you’re bringing that forth and how you’re making everything much more operationally savvy you want to talk a little bit about that.

03:04.61

Ben

Yeah I mean probably there’s not a single person in the western world that hasn’t eaten at 1 of our designs and it’s as you say it’s everything from Starbucks to Ritz culture right? and I think. Often as you say design or highqual design is attached to the risk alters of this world right? Ah, but it’s equally important in any fast cache when any qsr I believe that one of the the biggest differences between what we do and and a regular design firm is that you know the actual front of the house. It’s.

03:35.24

vigorbranding

Then.

03:35.38

Ben

Easy part. That’s the fun part. The the mood boards. The pinterest anyone can do that. What is really challenging especially in in scalable brands is understanding the operations. You know how do you make sure that you create designs that work that are profitable that minimize labor. All those things. Are often overlooked at from a design perspective and I think that’s really where design really matters not only in the look and feel of things. But how the engine really runs and works and that’s why I think it’s so important that designers understand the business from the inside.

04:14.00

vigorbranding

Um, that’s that’s great. What’s the 1 thing you think every great restaurant design has in common.

04:20.20

Ben

Um, well um I think touches to touch the emotions of the guest. Um, you know we are constantly bombarded by experiences and social media etc and you know when something really touches you close. That’s that’s magic and I think that’s. The beauty of our industry right? hospitality that we get to touch. Ah, people’s lives and their experiences and their celebrations. Um, so so that’s something really important and there’s not a magic wand to do that. It’s like oh create a restroom design that you know touches people’s hearts. It’s.

04:37.20

vigorbranding

Man.

04:55.40

Ben

It’s a combination of so many things and design is one of those components but it could be the scent. It could be the sound. It could be the the thickness of the menu. There’s so many small details in creating that holistic experience that is unique. Um, so you really need to work on I Always say that the designer or a good designer should be like the spider in the web you you change something in the operations and it will affect the guest experience you change you create a Wow moment on the customer Journey. It will affect the culinary side. So. There’s a lot of things and moving parts in a good restroom design and that’s really what I do think that you know great restroom designs have in common that there’s a red thread. You know, along all these things that you know make that cohesive. Fantastic experience.

05:45.15

vigorbranding

It’s brilliant and ah you know you’re you’re you’re a man after my heart I mean ah we do branding we do advertising and marketing for restaurants we our job is to drive people to that front door right? And. We always talk about the consumer journey. We talk about the experience what they’re hearing what they’re seeing what they’re feeling ah the the emotion that we can bring forth and I think when when sometimes when we talk about this stuff. People think it’s all just sort of like ah maybe marketing propaganda but it truly is all about that that experience from the from the sofa. To the seat in the restaurant right? and I love you know again, whether it’s whether it’s a burger King or a Ritz-carlton I love how you sweat the details and I think um I’ve I’ve heard you speak and I’ve seen some of the different lectures you’ve given and. I know like covid ah obviously was a huge game changer in a lot of things that we’ve done. It kept us at home and but you’re seeing um, experience come back right? You’re seeing that physical experience becoming much more important.

06:46.64

Ben

Yeah I mean we have I think the advantage of you know as you said in the beginning we open roughly a thousand restaurants every year right all over the world. So we can. Not that we have the crystal ball but we sort of see trends and understand what’s happening in Asia -pacific what’s happening in australia what’s happening in the middle east in the europe in the us etc and 1 1 thing that we’ve seen is a polarization of the industry and I’ll try to explain it. So either you play on the convenience side of things. I want it here I want it now. Um you know I go online and I want it send to wherever I am in less than 50 minutes or you play in the experience side to your point about what do we need to create from an experiential side for people to leave their netflix and their sofa and really go out and have an experience and.

07:34.83

vigorbranding

Um.

07:35.45

Ben

Consumers are getting picky. You know you go out less and therefore the Bland experiences right? The the um the legacy American brands is a great example like you know trying to be everything to everyone. Those are the brands that are really really suffering.

07:46.78

vigorbranding

Move.

07:53.69

Ben

You know, really now you need to be niche. You need to create a phenomenal experience. You need to be a driver or you play completely in the opposite you know, ah spectrum and just play on convenience and speed etc and that’s something that we’re seeing Globally you know the trends used to be more regional if you will or or you know continental.

08:06.45

vigorbranding

Who.

08:12.54

Ben

Now Trends are really global and that’s something that we’re really seeing Overall so to your point you know, not only driving their guest to the experience but making sure you deliver on that experience is what keeps people coming back.

08:23.46

vigorbranding

Yeah that’s great. You know it’s funny I was just as I said traveling and I was in an airport somewhere us and I wanted to grab something very quick to eat and get some coffee so this was actually yesterday morning I ran into this diner. Ah, they had a menu that was a Qr code. Fantastic no problem I do that so order my food I went through this whole thing and it was kind of like a pain I just wanted to order some eggs and it was breakfast but I did it I did it no problem I don’t want the thirty drinks they tried to offer me I didn’t want ah of 30 different cocktails. They tried to offer me was like to get through the thing they wanted a tip I’m like.

08:51.13

Ben

Are.

08:58.85

vigorbranding

I thought I was supposed to tipple in the service I haven’t met a person yet I haven’t seen anything I haven’t gotten food and nothing but I actually had to program my tip and and pay with a credit card before anything showed up I think sometimes some of the automation can go a little too far. That’s my opinion I mean I think we lose some of the personal touch and the experience and and all that. But anyway.

09:00.29

Ben

Are.

09:16.31

vigorbranding

I Just thought I just thought that was ah like a weird kind of experience.

09:18.38

Ben

I think I think we’re all. It’s a very US thing you know I was in Vegas the other day and like I grab a can of coke from the fridge I bring it to the counter I say I want to pay and they flip the screen and say tip you know.

09:28.49

vigorbranding

I mean.

09:33.93

vigorbranding

Um, yeah, yeah, right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

09:34.88

Ben

It was like 1824 28% is like ah what this this is convenience store. Um, but I do think that you know one of the one of the things that sometimes operators are getting wrong is that technology and efficiency should be a means to. Ah, make hospitality better. Make sure that your employees can actually focus on what people are doing better than than machines rather than take out the hospitality of it. So I think.

09:56.70

vigorbranding

Who the customer. Yeah no.

10:08.63

Ben

You know I often get the question because I speak a lot about robotics and innovation and trends in terms of you know what? the future of the industry is and they say well you know we’re going to you know, ah get ah, get out of jobs and you know hospital is going to die yes on the contrary.

10:22.64

vigorbranding

1

10:24.55

Ben

You know, rather than you know, being in the back of the house in a fridge doing inventory. Why don’t you go out and talk to your guests you know and and give them a smile and you know ask how the day was. That’s true hospitality and let a machine just manage your inventory. You don’t need to sit there with an excel file and do that.

10:43.28

vigorbranding

Yeah I mean it’s amazing. You know in 1 of your presentations I saw it I I might get the name of the company wrong. But I can describe what it was I think it’s called each and it was ah it looked like I mean basically the back of the restaurant looked like a manufacturing facility with no people in it. Is that the the computerized system that can like learn the menu items and actually make it and clean itself is that the does I get that right.

11:03.78

Ben

Yeah, yeah, so you know we’re now part of some of the world’s biggest projects I guess you’ve heard of the line this you know 170 kiilometer long building built. Yeah so we’re we’re designing some of the f and b there and and sort of understanding the future. There’s now.

11:13.57

vigorbranding

Ah, we got to talk about that. It’s incredible. It’s ah.

11:21.90

Ben

You know pieces of equipment that can do up to 15000 dishes per day individual dishes so they can remember you know your Michael your your flavor profile you know? Ah, um, your spiciness levels etc. You know attach a cure code to that specific dish and have it served and they can self-clean themselves. You know.

11:26.85

vigorbranding

Um, it’s incredible.

11:41.50

Ben

The evolution of technology is just amazing specifically if you go to China I think yeah China is sort of for the western world sort of a black box. We’ve had you know office in in Shanghai for many many years and done business there for many of the world’s global brand and. That’s really where I see the innovation happening in terms of you know, not only development of equipment but embracing of technology in the actual operations I think in in in the west or you know, specifically in the us we just scratched the surface on what. You know the future is bringing in terms of automation innovation and also quality and consistency. You know there’s certain things that machines are really really good at is that making things over and over again repetitive tasks doing them perfectly right? And that’s tough for humans.

12:25.55

vigorbranding

Um, right? Yeah I know I know I have a very poor golf swing and I know that a simulated golf swing is way better than mine will ever be. So I mean there’s just certain repetitive things and to your point precision that a machine will be better At. And I know like I’ll offend the artists out there that are chefs and everything I don’t I don’t mean to offend but I mean it’s just I was blown away by that machine and and and with the capability of what it was able to do really remarkable.

12:50.87

Ben

Yeah, and I think it goes beyond that if we we could you know we we sort of put this in Silos right? There’s there’s equipment in the back of the house and I always say oh people talk about robots to me. The dishwasher is the best robot out there right? The only thing is now.

13:04.21

vigorbranding

Are.

13:07.57

Ben

s dishwasers with a yeah that recognize the different dishes then they take it out of the dishwasher and put it on on a shelf to dry. You know the whole automation process and nobody needs to be a dishwasher anymore and I doubt that nobody wants to be a dishwasher It’s just a way of starting right. But the same goes with with all the other things that you know if you think of music right? You know, um as you know and we can talk about later. We have our own restaurant innovation labs that we use to test things spotify uses them to understand the the impact of music behavior on guest.

13:24.19

vigorbranding

Ah.

13:32.13

vigorbranding

Yeah.

13:39.38

Ben

So you can actually automate. You know the music in the restaurants to change human behavior in terms of you want them to stay longer. Do you want them to stay shorter. You want to upsell, certain products, etc, etc. And that’s all automated right? and that could be connected to how many people you have in the store in real-time. Etc. Another thing is sent. You can change the different scents in the restaurant and depending on what cent you have you sell 1 product or the other all these things that influence human behavior and you know restaurant guest behavior happen without you as a guest noticing it but also without the interaction of anyone in the restaurant.

14:14.45

vigorbranding

Right.

14:16.62

Ben

And that’s what we see more and more right? How can some of these processes that traditionally have been managed by the restaurant manager or the agm or the team members. How can we offload those from their sort of day-to-day task and make sure that somebody centralized or or an ai engine does that. Better than they do so they can once again focus on the hospitality component of things.

14:38.67

vigorbranding

Yeah, it’s incredible I mean I saw one of your examples in the generative Ai where people that come into the restaurant would affect what would be on the walls like what they’re seeing and and and all that just it’s just incredible and it makes it makes an awful lot of sense as far as that whole immersive experience How you can really kind of make things. Ah. Personal fun, interesting. Always new it just it’s truly fascinating and speaking of you brought it up and I definitely want to hit that. Can you talk about the line that that blew my mind I mean and what is your role in that I know it’s got to be in the architecturally design. Ah as far as restaurants.

15:08.10

Ben

Um, and.

15:16.12

vigorbranding

Talk about the whole thing. It’s it’s crazy.

15:18.79

Ben

Yeah, yeah, I’m actually flying there. You know the day after tomorrow. So yeah, it’s it’s basically um, building a country right? It’s in Saudi Arabia and by the red sea. It’s a beautiful beautiful location it’s amazing it’s pristine um, I’ve been driving those beaches is just like fantastic right? You can compete with the maldates. Um, and you know it’s building if if we were to build a country or a city with everything we know and everything that we project. What would it be right. So basically the idea is you take a whole city and you put in 1 building and leave 98% of the land untouched and you know you create community living where you know you have everything you need within a 5 minute walk

15:50.83

vigorbranding

Right.

15:59.24

Ben

So It’s really turning everything upside down and we’re helping with the F and B strategy on you know what does f and B strategy look like in the future. Um, it all started with our restroom Labs. We have you know sort of developed um a cross-trained de-skilled operating model. Where young team members can come in and and work without previous experience but deliver on a high note in a fine- dining environment and we started you know, building hotels and FAndBOutlets for Neome the different Neome regions right? Neum have several regions. Um, and that’s where we started you know working more and more into this different giga projects. You know there’s a lot going on that I cannot tell you because it’s sort of under Nda in the future. But what I can tell you it’s mind-blowing and the resources being poured into it is are phenomenal. It’s you know. You go there. It’s the best of the best whether that’s recycling energy water waste. It’s really a privilege to be part of of that environment.

16:58.28

vigorbranding

It’s crazy I do remember this was a big high long mirror building and just it was fascinating. Absolutely remarkable.

17:03.26

Ben

Um, yeah I mean it’s the height of the empire state building two hundred meter wide you can have a football stadium up there three hundred meters up in the year and one hundred and seventy miles and kilometers long it will be built in faces. Of course it’s not being built all. But.

17:13.21

vigorbranding

Um.

17:16.21

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:20.50

Ben

But you know face 1 is two point four kilometers so and you know a cruise ship. Can you know, go through it. It’s just you know, really really exciting to be part of it. Yeah yeah, exactly exactly.

17:25.96

vigorbranding

Yeah, well they say Rome wasn’t built in a debt. You can’t build a whole country right? I mean so it’s going to take some time like that makes sense.

17:34.23

Ben

So and and you speak like you know you speak to Dubai and it was the same like we tried things. We tried the islands we tried the palm. We tried the second Paul we tried the Bush Cahalifa you know it. It requires a lot of vision to be able to move like a country like Dubai that doesn’t have a lot of natural resources to become a word-class you know touristist nation.

17:37.46

vigorbranding

Moon.

17:53.75

Ben

So there’s a vision behind it and it’s going to take time.

17:54.10

vigorbranding

Yeah,, that’s fantastic. All right? So I’ll bring it back into more I’ll say maybe a more Americanized Pedestrian Baseline issues. So and and you know this is something that I’ll say we as ah as a company will struggle with because. Look the restaurants they’ve they’ve had tough times they’ve struggled all right? So There’s a lot of tired restaurants out there. There’s a lot of restaurants that can use a makeover or refresh but it costs money right? and they’re just worried about turnover they want to get butts and seats they want to make you know what’s their daily check and all that kind of thing you know we know you know I know the design marketing advertising. All that stuff refreshing The the the experience will make them money. But how do you convince? a restaurant owner to take that leap.

18:38.30

Ben

Well, you know when we work with with global brands I Always say the same Um, you know Restroom design is an investment is not a cost right? And um, what we always try is to you know, make sure that we make a proof of concept. What we call an Alpha Prototype or Beta. Before actually rolling it out whether that’s corporate stores or franchises stores so you can really measure things right because to your point we could go to a conference and present a beautiful new design and say oh this is going to be great for your sales all right? What’s that right? So What we always try to do is make sure that we’re not only delivering on the high quality of the design.

19:07.19

vigorbranding

Um.

19:13.74

Ben

But also saying look these are the numbers. This is the increase of footfall this is the increase of you know intent to return. This is the increase of intent to recommend. There’s certain part of that that we could do upfront now we do you know? gen ai we have Oculos glasses we have immersive experiences and focus groups, etc, etc. But ultimately the proof is in the pudding so that would be my recommendation really, you know, making sure that for example, when we do a remodel make sure that you take a store that is an existing store rather than create a new design and and and a new build because then you can really measure the pre and post but always talk.

19:44.99

vigorbranding

Correct.

19:50.40

Ben

About design or marketing as an investment not about a cost.

19:51.78

vigorbranding

Always right? and it truly is I said a lot of people look at this is like a paying taxes. You know you have to do it. You don’t want to do it. But it’s It’s truly if it’s not getting your return. You shouldn’t do it. So I mean that’s that’s really the bottom line there. What do you think? what? what are most restaurants do wrong when they when they when it comes to design.

20:03.93

Ben

Um, yeah.

20:10.78

Ben

Um I think in general and I’ve talked to the us I guess most of your audience is us based um one of the things that we see especially coming from Asia or from Europe is you know real estate has been extremely expensive outside of the us land used to be cheap in the Us.

20:14.40

vigorbranding

Me.

20:27.14

Ben

Ah, labor you know I live in Sweden it’s twenty Eight bucks minimum wage. It’s sort of like when people are complaining about 50 or 20 in the us like I keep it keep them coming send them over I’ll sign them up. Um, so not that we come from the future but we have been exposed to these challenges before in terms of inflation high labor.

20:30.14

vigorbranding

I for compared? Yeah yeah.

20:47.70

Ben

Ah, lack of skill labor. You know capex increasest etc so a couple of things you know, First of all the understanding of efficiency in a footprint. That’s 1 thing that we see a lot in the us humongous kitchens you know kitchens where you know ah 40% of the restroom footprint is back of the house.

21:00.15

vigorbranding

Um, you know.

21:06.65

Ben

You know that is only cost doesn’t generate any revenue. How do you make sure that you get back to a 25% back of the house versus 40 so the back of the house. Um, operating model is something that is often not seen by designers. So. It’s like a black box. You know? Okay, we’ll design a front of the house and then somebody. Ah, maybe even a kitchen consultant. You know comes in and you know guess what their job is to sell you equipment. So you’re going to end up with a ferrari off a kitchen with a lot of space and a lot of equipment. Well, you don’t make money there you make money in the front of the house. So that’s 1 thing. The second thing is the.

21:30.26

vigorbranding

Right.

21:36.56

vigorbranding

Right.

21:43.11

Ben

Um, Availability of cheap labor right? You know a lot of tip-grade states etc so there has been really an incentive to um work from an efficiency perspective in the restaurant environment whether that’s layout. You know how many steps you take.

21:55.88

vigorbranding

And.

21:57.78

Ben

You know, ah time in motion. So there’s a lot of time motion study done in the back of the house but not a lot to the front of the houses you know where are the station’s position. All those things that they think oh, it’s not important. Well it’s 10 seconds here 20 seconds there you know you go back and punch it into the pos. You don’t have handhelds so the whole. Um. Efficiency component that we’ve seen overseas is something that we’re finally now you know, being able to bring to the us because labor scars you know and salaries are going up, Etc, etc. So um, it’s it’s not reinventing the wheel. What I do think that we can do is we can take best practices and global learnings and actually apply them to the us rather to than to have to invent everything from scratch.

22:40.83

vigorbranding

That’s great. Yeah, and you you bring a global perspective to all this which is really ah, it’s an incredible ah advantage candidly. So So talk about talk about your lab a little bit I mean in my company. Anybody you talk to that works in in our agencies. They know our core values are respect. Innovation and passion. You got to be excited about what you do and innovation is is one of core values. We. We’re always coming up with new ideas talk about the lab because I think that’s a brilliant concept.

23:06.20

Ben

Yeah, well yeah, it’s it’s a fun story right? You know one of the talent we work with the world’s biggest brands right? and when you know I remember back in the days we were talking about Ai and automation. They said hey hey then slow down we are implementing wi-fi like. Okay, okay now I know where where I have to put the threshold. Um, it was sort of hard to push these global brands to really innovate. So we came up with the idea to say why don’t we put our money where our mouth is why don’t we set up a restaurant that we can use as a lab.

23:40.93

vigorbranding

No no.

23:42.98

Ben

And rather than become the traditional consultant where you come and say oh you should do this or I believe you should do that we could actually come and say look. We’ll try this and these are the results. This worked this didn’t work right? So we become peers instead of consultants. So we said let’s open up a restaurant. We decided to open it up in Stockholm you know second highest. Ah, labor market in the world. So you know either, you’re efficient or you die we decided to only hire people that have never worked in a restaurant right? to make sure that the efficiency was in the model in the equipment in the layout etc and then really pack this with all sorts of sensors that and you can imagine.

24:04.50

vigorbranding

Yeah, exactly you go broke. Um, first.

24:21.56

Ben

But everything happens without the guest knowing so the guests don’t know this is a lab um and not only was it extremely successful from a learning perspective in terms of you know the initial objectives what we did not expect is that we were going to make so much money. Actually becoming operators. So what was 1 restaurant became 3 sore the 3 biggest citizens of Sweden we started franticing a year ago we’re now in 10 countries. We’re going into the us now. So it’s really becoming a global brand. We get 73 sites in the pipeline.

24:36.96

vigorbranding

Hidden.

24:48.36

vigorbranding

It’s awesome.

24:52.90

Ben

So now I have to balance out the the you know design consultant hat and the operator hat but it also it’s a great way of testing things in different markets. You know we are in Saudi Arabia and we’re opening in Mexico and Buenosiris and we were in madrid and we’re in Belgium and we’re now opening in Nashville. So.

24:56.88

vigorbranding

Ah, yeah.

25:05.10

vigorbranding

Um.

25:08.80

Ben

You know, understanding how those different Technologies Components efficiencies operate in different markets. It’s very very valuable for us beside you know the fact that we’re building our own global brand which is extremely fun.

25:21.90

vigorbranding

Yeah, well you better be careful, you might have a conflict. You’ll be like building me oh we’re across the street from you guys in Madrid you’ll lose the ah opportunity to redesign him. Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s so cool I love it.

25:30.44

Ben

Ah, we’ll invite you. We’ll invite you to come over. Don’t worry.

25:38.40

vigorbranding

So when it comes to those big ah chains who’s doing a good job like who who ah pick on American Brand If you wouldn’t mind.

25:45.54

Ben

Um, I mean this, there’s quite a few and and in different ways I would say you know I think um, you know in the us I’m a big fan of Bartacco. Um, the way they not only create experience embrace technology or very early with you know, tech adoption I think they great did a great job in delivering the experience I believe there their sort of model is a day at the beach you work into the restaurant and it’s really it transports you somewhere you know to to.

25:58.17

vigorbranding

Um.

26:17.16

Ben

You know a cardboard whatever that is um but also from a you know training perspective I like both the but back of the house and and the front of the house guest experience. That’s a brand that I really like um I think you know and pizza. We did a great job with them and they had a great run and you know.

26:18.95

vigorbranding

Um.

26:31.56

vigorbranding

Um, okay.

26:35.63

Ben

Unfortunately very leveraged so when interest rates go up. They’re having a harder time. Um, it’s not an american brand but 1 of my favorites. It’s Jo the jews you’ll see it in some of the american cities extraordinary way of turning.

26:46.76

vigorbranding

Um.

26:50.58

Ben

A potentially boring job like serving coffee and juices into being something really really cool. You know and they hire these good looking guys now they have women as well because they’ve gone too big but they really said you know they did something that nobody else had done before. Their capex is extremely low. You know both in terms of equipment and the fphony and they really deliver on a great great experience and I think from a marketing perspective. Undoubtedly they they do something really really interesting. So for for the those listening that haven’t seen it is one of my to go brands for a number of reasons both from operational simplicity efficiency. You know can run one of those those restaurants with 2 team members. Um and delivering a really good experience whether that’s a kiosk in an airport. Or an extra large dining room with full service and they’ve been able to capture you know coffee juices and food in 1 which is something that Starbucks has struggled with for years and I can go on and on but you know yeah, ah.

27:50.75

vigorbranding

That’s that’s awesome. So yeah, you know believe me this good this this Well I could talk to you for hours I am just absolutely I Love what I’ve seen Love what I hear it’s ah it’s just so easy to ignore. Ah good design. Ah, whether it’s you know the the actual architectural design whether it’s the design of the of the brand. It’s so easy to it’s not well. It’s easy to ignore it. But boy you know it when you see it and I think that’s the thing. It’s kind of one of those things you really know it when you see it and when you feel it and that’s that’s what’s going to be successful, especially with people wanting to go back to that experience. So who what’s what’s up What if you can be honest, What’s ah, what’s a larger you know company. That’s not doing a great job in your opinion.

28:32.35

Ben

Well I think if if I go back to my comment people 4 about the brands that tried to be everything to everyone. You know, think of all the legacy bar and grill brands in the us you know there’s a bunch of them. Um, you know, just adding menu items adding menu items. Ah.

28:44.92

vigorbranding

Um.

28:49.21

Ben

Try to be lunch dinner. All locations. Um, you know their audience is literally dying right? Its you know you you don’t see any young people going in there I think that’s really a struggle in a world that is coming more and more specialized more and more on a occasion based. Um, those brand really need to rethink I read that you know Tgi Fridays was actually just sold last week to one of their Uk franchisees. You know that whole category is is a category that’s really suffering and that really need to you know, take care of their guest experience.

29:10.99

vigorbranding

From.

29:23.44

Ben

And Beyond that who are they you know it’s It’s been. It’s lost their soul a little bit so there’s a lot of work to be done there but they have a scale and an audience that also you know make it possible to make them come to life again.

29:23.87

vigorbranding

Right.

29:38.45

vigorbranding

That’s that’s great. That’s a really good insight all right? So we’ll play I’m gonna play like a little game here’s like what’s worse and I don’t think there’s any good answers here. So but it’d be. It’d be great just to hear you you fill in the gaps here as far as ah, your your points of view on these.

29:42.96

Ben

Yeah, quick tip. Ah.

29:49.78

Ben

And.

29:49.90

vigorbranding

So so what is worse lots of cluttered I relevantt decorations speaking of I’ll say Fridays I shouldn’t say that but I I will or a bad floor plan. Yeah.

29:58.99

Ben

A bad flowprint all day long. Yeah I think the bad flow Brand will impact on your pnl. Um, you know you’re going. Ah, you’re going to. You know have a higher labor cost, etc. And. Um, you know you know it’s going to impact on the guest experience. So Um I will go with that.

30:13.91

vigorbranding

All right, all right? What’s worse an exposed service area or bathroom doors that only open in.

30:20.49

Ben

Exposed service area I think the the bathroom doors that only open in it’s something that you can live with it might be annoying but when you’re having your your dinner experience and see the service area and they are never pretty. That’s something that you’ll remember.

30:34.20

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah, especially if they’re busy right.

30:39.89

Ben

I’ve I’ve never seen a guest get back and get back to me say you know what? hey Michael I went to this restaurant and the bathroom doors opened inwards I’ll not never come back again. You know.

30:47.98

vigorbranding

Ah, but they will see the mess that’s in the service area that’s for sure all right? What’s worse bad lighting or bad carpeting.

30:55.12

Ben

A bad lighting all day long I’m a lighting freak I think lighting and acoustics are the 2 things that designers often overlook and they’re not well taught and in design schools and when you do value engineering.

31:09.51

vigorbranding

Um.

31:12.37

Ben

Is the first thing people cut because you don’t see it on the on the layouts. You don’t see it on the renderings but I would go with bed lighting all day long.

31:15.17

vigorbranding

Yeah, it’s right? That’s great and if you have good lighting then you will be able see the bad carpet without the good lighting. You know you get the carpet you can get away with it. So all right? What’s worse low grade tables and shares or poor menu design.

31:32.53

Ben

Ah, low grade tables I would go I think it’s you know and I’ll connect it to the to the carpet comment before the things you touch the cutlery the table the chair the the glass where the plate where those are the most important things.

31:38.10

vigorbranding

So.

31:49.27

Ben

What’s on the floor. What’s on the ceiling. What’s on the walls is not as important. So if what you touch is Conveys The the sense of quality. Um, that’s really very very important to me.

31:58.92

vigorbranding

Um, all right? So a few years ago ah you talked about we talked about so everything’s Instagram right? Everything’s taking pictures and all all the social media but you talked about the most instagramed restrooms talking about the doors in the United States talk about what made the bathroom so photogenic.

32:18.90

Ben

Yeah, so so we actually opened one of our labs in in Los Angeles bad timing November Twenty nineteen so it’s not there anymore, but we were gaining one Instagram follower per second when we opened. Um. We won the best restaurantroom design of the year award voted by consumers by edola and the second best bar in America and what we did um is that we really wanted to create ah just an amazing restaurant restroom experience. So we you know bought this. Onyx handsinks that were lit from from underneath and it had like 40 candles under the mirror and you know greenery and art. You know, really expensive art in the restroom and what really made the difference is that on the mirror and I hope. I’m not going too far politically correct. It said you look fucking beautiful and there wasn’t a person going into that restroom that did not take a picture of you look fucking, beautiful and shared it in social media. So not a recipe for every brand.

33:11.46

vigorbranding

Um, that’s right, That’s fantastic. That’s great. Yeah.

33:25.83

Ben

But ah, you know, just just make sure you create something memorable and don’t underestimate the power of restrooms because when you have a clean, well lit nicely designed restroom that smells great that has you know a really good soap. That really you know makes an impression on what you think the kitchen’s going to be and what you think the rest of the experience going to be.

33:48.84

vigorbranding

That’s great I need one of those those mirrors because I need all positive reinforcement I can get you know and you know it’s funny. You say that but I will say you know the the the hermitage ah hotel in Nashville downstairs next to the bar. The restroom is incredible. And I remember that and I’m not. You know that’s something I will always remember it doesn’t have anything that gives me any positive reinforcement but it was just incredible. Fact there was a sign outside it said ladies knock before coming in to take pictures which I was like why would that be here and I went inside I was like amazing, absolutely amazing. So. Anyway I think a good bathroom’s fantastic and it’s ah it’s important. So what? What’s the future look like for restaurant design I mean what’s trending what? what? what might might meet that what might we start seeing more often.

34:36.61

Ben

So when it comes to russian design and again maybe I’m not the prototypical designers only thinking of you know the fabrics and the colors and the textures it’s it’s really operational efficiency to me. Um, both in the back of the house and the front of the house. That’s really coming big time. It comes to sensors implementation of technology friction less ordering, etc etc. So that’s something that we’ll see and I can talk for hours about bad efficiency parts specifically in the back of the house etc. The second part that we are going to see is a lot more. Um, artificial intelligence coming in. You know at livid we have now you know a 5 team strong Ai team just because Ai it’s going to be better than humans at a lot of the repetitives that task right? You know whether that’s comp set analysis restaurant layouts you know optimization of spaces etc so there’s a lot of that.

35:22.61

vigorbranding

Um.

35:30.42

Ben

That’s coming into the design space. Ah, but um, there’s a lot of talk about those things but I do think that you know where we started this conversation in terms of the experience the human touch. That’s really going to. Be here for a while you know machines will not be able to do those things for us at least in the foreseeable future. So I think we need to be aware of the tools that we can use as designers but really make sure. To understand where do we add value like like we were saying in terms of understanding trends in 1 market into the other etc etc. That’s something that we see the other I trend that I’m going to see and I’m going to speak specifically to the us is offshoring so you know since the pandemic. Capex construction costs are up what thirty forty percent there depending on states. Um, it’s really becoming hard to get the return of investment capital with the capex that restaurants are now running at it’s really are you know you can make the p and l work. But how are you know you know, get that that investment back. So.

36:19.57

vigorbranding

The money.

36:37.84

Ben

1 thing that we’re doing for mini brands is actually almost building the restaurants offsite. So this la restaurant that I mentioned you know we bidded it out in California bids came in between 3.4 3 point $2000000 we ended up building it for one point 3

36:49.54

vigorbranding

But.

36:53.81

Ben

So basically we bought all the pieces from China we bought them from Europe we assembled the restaurant in a warehouse in Spain we shipped it to la we sent an install crew and the rest was up and running in seventeen days that sort of brands becoming.

37:00.17

vigorbranding

Wow.

37:11.22

Ben

Um, sourcing companies and you know installation companies. We’re now working with you know, quite a few large Us chains in making modular designs and concepts overseas right? You might do it in Mexico you might do it in China you might do it in Eastern Europe just to make sure that if there’s a tariff coming in 1 country you will have you know a plan b but that’s something that we’re going to see more and more because the increase of labor and the increase of construction cost is hitting the us market really really strong.

37:43.70

vigorbranding

It’s incredible and I mean it’s amazing that you can actually build it ship it assemble it cheaper than you can build it on site That’s ah, that’s that’s a shame actually.

37:49.80

Ben

Yeah, plus the fact that hey I’m half swedish so we have Ikea in our blood but but the fact that you’re never going to get the quality that you get in a factory in a nice environment. You know where you work in.

37:56.75

vigorbranding

Ah, of course of course.

38:05.42

Ben

You know a restaurant environment with local workers that have never done that brand or that assembly before they have to learn every time. So just that scalability this you know is not as easy for 1 ne-off concept or for small brand. But if you are starting to get regional I Always say you know if you. If your ambition is to get beyond 10 or 15 Brands. You should really start looking at it.

38:23.71

vigorbranding

Yeah, totally makes sense and you know it’s funny. You brought up Ikea I wasn’t going to bring that up I was going to try to avoid this whole conversation. But it is in a weird sort of way. It’s a microcosm of like what we’re talking about and what you do I mean right? The design was impeccable. The user experience second to none and I’m going back to like 19

38:28.40

Ben

Me.

38:41.94

vigorbranding

I don’t know 80 when I first was exposed to it I walked in to a store. It’s like this is just brilliant. Everything about it was brilliant I wanted I wanted to buy everything there I wanted to buy the expensive stuff. Nothing was super expensive I wanted to buy the the inexpensive I needed I all of a sudden needed things I never know I knew I needed just because the design was so impeccable and then of course.

38:48.29

Ben

Um.

38:50.67

Ben

Oh.

38:58.49

Ben

Count.

39:01.90

vigorbranding

The the user experience as you walk through and the layout and the way they showed everything comes back to design and experience and um.

39:03.50

Ben

And we’ve actually just been engaged to I think we’re already delivered it the the future f and b experience of Ikea globally we’ve done it that limitd so there’s we’re we’re closing the circle.

39:14.53

vigorbranding

Fantastic. That’s awesome, Very Cool. We’re actually I’m talking to them about a project right Now. So I’m excited about it. We’ll see where it goes but what? ah I’ve always been ah, just fascinated by the brand. It’s brilliant and it’s it stands for I think a lot of things that. I’ll say important to me personally just the whole experience to design. Ah the the user experience. Everything about it is just really Impeccable. So hey I could talk to you for hours. But here I have one last question that I ask everybody every time for you. This will be maybe very difficult because you just literally. Ah you know your tires barely touch ground and you’re off somewhere else. So. If You had 1 final meal. What would you eat where and why.

39:55.48

Ben

Oh that’s a tough one. Um, one final meal. So um, um, ah, no, no, it’s not going to be bad. Yeah no, so it has to be a social meal. What I would do I would cook ba. Yeah.

40:01.87

vigorbranding

Um, it can’t be the swedish meatballs that Ikea either. Yeah.

40:10.76

Ben

Think it’s a very social meal because you cook it with friends. You know you stand around it. It’s our version of the barbecue you stand around it and cook it together I will have it with friends and family. You know, ah last week we had some friends over and you know my stomach hurt from from laughs.

40:10.87

vigorbranding

Um, ah, nice. Yeah yep.

40:26.19

vigorbranding

Awesome.

40:28.20

Ben

That’s really yeah, you know the social component of eating I think is the important thing. Ah more so than than what you actually eat but that would be um, you know I would eat a baya ah together with friends and family have a good laugh. And it could be anywhere in the world.

40:47.19

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic. Well um, like I said I’m heading to Madrid here in two weeks so I’m really excited about the the payeea I’m sure that’ll be fantastic and I can’t thank you enough I do want to do this again. I mean I have a million more questions I could we got to dove into so many of these areas so much deeper. Phenomenal, fantastic congratulations on all your success and and thank you very much. You got it all right man talk soon.

41:05.14

Ben

Thank you very much thanks for having Michael look forward to stay touch have a good one. Cheers.

Fransmart is a global leader in franchise development. For over 20 years, they’ve excelled at turning emerging concepts into national and global brands. Led by company founder Dan Rowe, Fransmart is known throughout the franchising community for spotting and growing brands like Five Guys Burgers & Fries and Qdoba Mexican Grill, from single unit businesses to the powerhouse chains they are today. 

Fransmart has built restaurants in all of the top 150 media markets in North America. 

Fransmart’s success stories include Five Guys, Qdoba Mexican Grill and Halal Guys – a franchise that started from a success food cart in New York City. Today, Halal Guys is the most successful Middle Eastern restaurant in America. 

Dan’s success stems from his knowledge of each market and the potential franchisees in each market. With that knowledge, he can often predict whether a restaurant will find franchisees and be successful. 

The biggest mistake a lot of franchisees make is picking the wrong brand to invest in. Another mistake franchisees make is not following the system put in place by the brand they’re investing in. 

“A good franchisee wants to follow somebody else’s system. A bad franchisee buys a franchise and tries to do everything different.” (Dan)  

“In every market, we know where the best operators are, we know where the best intersections are, where the best projects are, the best architects, contractors, food distributors, so we just sort of developed this knack for understanding the best way to do everything in these markets.” (Dan) 

“I want to be relentless about getting the right site (for a new restaurant). For any concept, there’s 10 or 15 or 20 potential sites. But there’s really only three or four first sites. You have to be very careful when you’re building a brand in a brand new market. There’s something very strategic about using real estate and real estate’s role in marketing.” (Dan) 

“You have to be really good at knowing exactly where your bullseye’s are and coming up with some logic around what order you should be growing.” (Dan) 

“You have staff for the sales you want and you have to staff for the company you’re trying to build.” (Dan) 

“I’ve never seen a concept that I can’t figure out how to drive sales and lower costs.” (Dan) 

00:00.00

vigorbranding

Hello if you’re a restaurant looking to become an an international restaurant chain or if you’re um, you know I’m gonna start over I’m sorry it’s kind of fumble that all just yeah, hello if you’re a restaurant looking to become an international restaurant chain or if you’re an entrepreneur who wants to own a franchise today’s episode is for you. My guest is Dan Rowe he’s the Ceo and founder of fransmart and he takes emerging restaurant concepts and turns them into national and international franchises. He’s been called the chainmakerr and we’re gonna talk to him today about his process. Dan. Thank you so much for joining us.

00:32.74

dan_fransmart_com

Um, yeah, thanks, thanks for having me.

00:36.52

vigorbranding

Well let’s just jump right in. Let’s start with Fransmart tell me a little bit about it How you started maybe a little bit about your history and where you got your start.

00:44.96

dan_fransmart_com

sure sure I I started washing dishes and cooking got into technology if id never went to college so barelegged out of high school. So I but I was lucky enough when I was like nineteen eighteen and a half nineteen for about 5 years I got into technology. Worked for a guy that grew software companies made some money and what do I do go right back in the restaurant business I bought a franchise of a bagel bakery and it was a 6 unit bagel chain in Washington d c I lived in California the idea originally was to bring the franchise to California ah, because there’s no bagel shops near me. And I went into business with a buddy mine and his wife and they wanted to move to Denver so we opened up our first franchise in Denver I had negotiated a deal I said hey if we’re successful with this I want to also do your franchising and because I’m proving you outside of Dc where all your stores are. We were very successful and I was 23 I think he was 25 enty five or 26 and we were more successful than most of the stores that they had in Dc so we did their franchise development and we grew them from 6 stores to around 200 in about 4 years sold the company.

01:51.64

vigorbranding

Wow.

01:57.90

dan_fransmart_com

1 of my shops in Denver was across from the first Chipotle we tried to get him to franchise. He wasn’t interest in he did just fine without us but somebody who copied him was ah Kudoba Kudoba mexican so we approached Kudoba we got involved with Kedoba when they were only open a couple months.

01:59.35

vigorbranding

I.

02:13.86

dan_fransmart_com

Helped him put together the whole franchise program grew that to think about 100 open and few hundred in development sold that to Jack in the box and at that point I had grown 2 companies at a time as individual, you know, like 2 different companies at a time under 2 different companies. And then I said it was 2000. Everything was a.com back then and I said you know what I’m going to I’m going to start a new company instead of growing one brand at a time I’m going to grow a portfolio at a time so we started fransmart.

02:45.15

vigorbranding

That’s brilliant Now you know, ah and talking with you I’ve learned a couple things number one I did 2 work in the restaurant first and I believe wholeheartedly that everyone should start out working a restaurant. You’ve got to take orders. You’ve got to get things Done. You have to execute you have to talk to people by and large. You have to get to know how to handle problems I mean there’s a whole lot of education that happens in a restaurant doesn’t it. The other thing I It’s very humbling. Ah, that’s right, That’s absolutely right? The other thing I will say is I also did not.

03:04.41

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s It’s also humiliating and it’s humbling and it’s ah it’s good. It’s good to see why you should treat people better.

03:17.44

vigorbranding

Go to college I I was a creative guy so I just like thought well hell I’m really smart at doing these big ideas and creating stuff I don’t need to go school so I didn’t and you know at the end of the day. It’s it’s kind of funny because 1 time my daughter was asked in school like hey do your parents ever have any sayings you know like you know what? what are they known for saying and.

03:23.23

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah.

03:34.41

vigorbranding

My my daughter raised your hands and my dad said C students run the world so that was me I was just like yeah an underachiever. But just I worked really hard. So anyway, um so look with frasmar. Essentially you take this guesswork out of franchising right? You’re connecting entrepreneurs.

03:36.80

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah.

03:51.90

vigorbranding

Ah, the one to get into the restaurant ownership business with emerging restaurants and I mean so you’re’re, you’re finding great ideas or you have these great ideas. You’re finding people that that are business people and maybe good operators but also teaching them how to operate um you know So what? at the end of the day. What makes a good franchisee.

04:05.99

dan_fransmart_com

A good franchisee wants to follow somebody else’s system a bad franchisee buys a franchise and then tries to do everything different or or argues with the the company. But yeah I mean franspart’s main business were franchise development company. We have big picture vision. So like with 5 guys. You know we didn’t invent burgers. We just saw a micro niche of you know, fresh burgers and nobody really owned that segment we saw burger King Wendy’s Mcdonald’s but nobody was really doing high quality. Um chefy food and. So 5 guys was in Dc they were near us. They won these awards all the time for best burgers. They had a really really good hamburger. It was more expensive than the other guys. Whatever but they had 4 units and I just said you know what? I’ve already grown you know mexican chain a bagel chain all across the country There’s nobody else doing this in any other market around the country and so our playbook is basically become we. We’ve built restaurants and all the top hundred and fifty biggest media markets in North america so New York’s the biggest something around Savannah Georgia or something like that is somewhere around one fifty

05:12.95

vigorbranding

Me.

05:20.00

dan_fransmart_com

And in in every market we know who the best operators are we know where the best intersections are the best projects are the best architects contractors food distributors and so we’ve just sort of developed this knack for understanding the best known way to do everything in every one of these markets and so yeah, we did it with 5 guys. We. You know, wound up growing those guys I think we grew them from 6 4 4 locations to about 100 open a few hundred in development we sold. They’re like 2000 stores. Um, we did with halal guys. So here’s another thing like my premise was gosh. There’s a billion and a half muslims in the world. And when I go to Chipotle or Starbucks I’d ask my wife like do you know any muslim actors or singers or apparel companies or tech companies or car companies or food brands. There’s a no no no no no I’m like well wait a minute There’s a the biggest demographic population in the world and there’s no brand.

06:10.71

vigorbranding

A.

06:16.28

dan_fransmart_com

And so and we were opening american brands over in the Middle East and so you know most of our franchisees are super wealthy. Many of them are royal family and the first night they gee whiz you with their homes and just the way that they live. Second day they’re like what do you want to do and I said I want to go get street food and they would take you to some of this amazing amazing middle eastern street food and I tell myself I’m like somebody’s going to figure out how to build a brand out of this and so we did with the halal guys. Ah, we hal. All guys was a cart in New York City for 25 years They had 3 carts in the city. Not even a food truck just a cart but they made really good kind of chicken or gyro over rice with this white sauce and.

06:47.34

vigorbranding

Um, yeah.

07:00.43

dan_fransmart_com

And people stood in line for it and I’m like okay here we go so I found that same thing same playbook biggest 150 media markets. Best franchise operators you know exactly where to put them so anyone I mean sometimes these locations anybody could succeed there.

07:16.49

vigorbranding

Yeah.

07:16.65

dan_fransmart_com

But that’s part of the hack. That’s part of the hack is is going into these markets and we’d pick great operators I remember the the 2 corporate stores that we built in New York City both did like ridiculous volume like 2 times what a 5 guys in the same location would do because we picked the right site.

07:34.20

vigorbranding

He.

07:36.18

dan_fransmart_com

The first franchisee in Chicago opened up to like $80000 a week or some weird number the first California in first the first California store that we opened up clear across the country did over 100 grand it’s first week in sales. So.

07:48.67

vigorbranding

Well.

07:51.51

dan_fransmart_com

You take a good concept you package it right? and then you just have to build the right teams that can handle the volume pick the right locations and but that’s our playbook. We just keep doing it over and over.

08:01.41

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic That makes it mean it’s awesome and so like I have to ask like so the Halal guys I mean I’ve eaten it I mean I know know the carts I know that I know the whole deal Did you just like walk up there one day and say hey guys I’d like to talk to you about an idea I have.

08:12.41

dan_fransmart_com

So they didn’t even have a website they didn’t have a website. They didn’t have a social media page. They had a fan page So a fan had created what I thought was the website. It wasn’t a website it was called.

08:21.50

vigorbranding

Scott.

08:26.38

dan_fransmart_com

Fifty third and 6 are dot com or whatever it was but it was a fan page and I so and I basically emailed and they said hey I’ve done this and this and this and this and I want to do middle eastern and the guy’s like hey ah I don’t actually own it I’m just creating a fan page because I love these guys I’m like can you introduce me to them and they introduce me to him.

08:42.85

vigorbranding

Wow.

08:46.36

dan_fransmart_com

But it was funny I’ll never forget when I went to go meet him I’m like hey I’m the guy that did 5 guys in qdoba and they’re like what’s that like they don’t know these were super religious muslim. They come to America looking for the american dream I mean.

08:53.20

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.

09:01.88

dan_fransmart_com

Awesome founders, amazing! Beautiful people, great people. They came to America look they all had advanced degrees came here looking to the american dream and America basically shut the door and they started off driving cabs and they just you know, kind of worked really hard and then they opened a street cart. Was originally a hot dog cart that that they converted to halal food and they would use it as a way to sort of give people jobs like bring family members and friends over here and give them jobs and they had a couple of these carts but it’s like in the beginning when I was first trying to tell them. Oh I’ve got this big vision I want to go do all this stuff.

09:25.29

vigorbranding

May he.

09:36.38

vigorbranding

Yeah.

09:36.82

dan_fransmart_com

They’re like what are you talking about and you know because they they just weren’t they didn’t realize they didn’t see what I saw and they and they were not taken at all with my background they could care less. Yeah.

09:44.63

vigorbranding

Well, and yeah, they they had to start with they start with probably nothing right? So to get the cart and be able to get a corner probably was like they felt like they had they’d achieved a you know a lot which they had but they had no idea with with the capacity of that you could bring them like in in the locations and everything.

09:57.46

dan_fransmart_com

No no and and and they didn’t care they frankly they said we don’t want to open what they didn’t want to do was be embarrassed, be ashamed. They’re like very prideful of what they do. It’s funny when you talk to the owners. They still talk about they could talk for.

10:03.10

vigorbranding

Wow.

10:15.46

dan_fransmart_com

10 minutes just about this plate of food and how to make that plate of food perfect and it’s like that’s why they have those long lines right? So like a guy like me I’m not the reason that they’re successful. They’re successful because they care about that plate of food tasting the way it tastes.

10:15.96

vigorbranding

He. Yeah.

10:30.31

dan_fransmart_com

You know my job is not to screw it up but that it took a year from the time I first met him to the time that they finally said let’s go and it was mainly me convincing them that I wasn’t going to screw it up like this is a way that they’re feeding their family. They’re very proud of what they built and even though they didn’t have social media or whatever everybody knew what it was it was just

10:39.27

vigorbranding

My home.

10:49.71

dan_fransmart_com

There’s 8000000 carts in the city and 3 of them have long long like absurdly long lines and they just didn’t want me to screw that up. So yeah.

10:55.79

vigorbranding

Um, so I mean for us I mean you know we we do marketing and advertising so we focus on the restaurant segment with vigor and like they they took off is it because I kind of think it might be but. Because of the long lines in New York because of the word of mouth. Do you think it was just one of those things once they start getting locations people just kind of knew of it already because they had been exposed to it from the street or or is it like a lot of word of mouth or how do you think the explosion happened.

11:17.40

dan_fransmart_com

Um, well well yeah I mean well to take a step back a million people tried to knock him off none of them have none of a have a million people when this thing started to fly everybody who’s put the word halal.

11:26.40

vigorbranding

He wow.

11:35.29

dan_fransmart_com

On their cart in their storefront or whatever when when I started franchising this. There was all these metoo copycats. None of them are around and it’s because they’re not authentic and they didn’t do the right thing but no, it took off what I did is the way I marketed it to people outside of New York was funny. The first few franchisees.

11:36.52

vigorbranding

Yep.

11:42.10

vigorbranding

Wow.

11:53.96

vigorbranding

In here.

11:54.63

dan_fransmart_com

Knew it from New York like when they would come to New York they would go there and so like my Chicago franchisee my vegas franchise or my um southern cow in my Houston franchisees even my Dc franchisee they they every time they went up to New York they went there so the minute that they found out we were franchising they they bought it. Everybody else? What? what? What would happen is we would just market pictures of the line so initially it was lines of the cart and so people would be like what is roe babbling on about and it’s like this long line would at least stop them to get them to look you know at the next line or at the next page.

12:17.41

vigorbranding

Here here.

12:31.38

dan_fransmart_com

And then as soon as the first couple stores opened this the Southern California store doing 100 grandits first week that line looked like ah I mean it was Quarter mile long and so like even the news was taking pictures of it. So all I did is reposted what the news because.

12:41.45

vigorbranding

A.

12:48.90

vigorbranding

Sure no doubt.

12:49.70

dan_fransmart_com

You know it’s also a credibility technique. It’s like if I if I post a long long line people like yeah if the news posts it. It seems more credible. So yeah, we we just. In the beginning we would we kind of did that I didn’t want to explain with a lot of words what the concept was or what I thought it could be I just wanted to show long lines and then that would get people to come see it. Try it eat it and then you meet the owners and you just know like this this we had.

13:12.92

vigorbranding

Yeah, it’s authentic.

13:16.35

dan_fransmart_com

Almost everybody who came in for Discovery day wanted a franchise but they wouldn’t approve him. They were very picky about who they let in I mean it’s funny. We had a guy that came in and the minute that they that they gave in the indication they weren’t going to run the place right? or hire the right team out like they would even get up and leave the meeting and um.

13:28.82

vigorbranding

E well.

13:35.74

dan_fransmart_com

And then we even had a guy come in I’ll never forget it. He goes does the meat really have to be halal does it have to be halal because halal food’s more expensive and and I’ll never forget it like we’re all looking at each other like did he just say that and he did and it’s like meeting was over guy flew clear across the country for the meeting and within 8 minutes the meeting was over.

13:43.57

vigorbranding

Yeah. He had done.

13:55.41

dan_fransmart_com

And so yeah, it was but it’s a funny story but it’s’s ah I mean it’s such a great concept. It’s just a great concept. You think about billion and a half people no brands. It’s really the largest I mean certainly the largest restaurant chain MiddleEastern restaurant chain in North America

14:00.40

vigorbranding

Good.

14:12.54

vigorbranding

Yeah.

14:12.74

dan_fransmart_com

But now we’re open in London we’re open in Korea we’re open. You know we’re we’re we’re growing. So my goal with that and you know also when I started I’ll never forget when I first started growing the company. We got an interview with 1 of the big New York papers and I said this is going to and we only had carts and in. I said this is Goingnna be the biggest middle eastern brand in the world. The biggest muslim brand the biggest halal brand blah bla blah bla blah and the lady was laughing on the phone and I’m like what are you laughing about she was Dan They have carts and I’m like I know but I see something bigger so I’m not always right? But in halauge’s case I was.

14:35.62

vigorbranding

In.

14:43.11

vigorbranding

Yep, that’s fantastic. Well I love your line I’ve heard you say it many times that you let people vote people vote with their wallets right? So you followed the line that’s bright I mean ah and your marketing was smart too I mean using the the news and all that and showing the lines I mean that’s the proof and that’s ah.

14:50.15

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

15:00.48

vigorbranding

That’s masterful marketing and so that that brings me to sort of another question because it’s really an interesting ah like I’m really interested in what you do I mean you find these great products and these great brands you you look at the lines you say?? Okay, this is. There’s ah, there’s some white space in the ah in this in the restaurant world for this. This can be the next big thing. But then there’s also ah you need to know a fair amount about real estate right? There’s certain you just said. There’s some real estate that you could put anything in there I’m sure that’s not true, but probably any of your products you could put in there and they’d be successful. But then there’s also the the franchisees people want to own a restaurant or maybe Master franchise. These folks that have like a. You know they have a serious office and they own a bunch of different brands in some cases talk about like the whole thing coming together that whole thing coming together. Well just you have these the master franchisees right? So you got to find them then there’s the the actual then there’s the real estate part right.

15:37.93

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah. Wait wait which part. Um, yeah, yeah, oh um, yeah, so for me I always start with the end in mind I I see a chain for what it can be 10 years down the road and that in that tells me the.

15:52.73

vigorbranding

And then there’s also sort of the restaurant part. How does that all work together.

16:07.16

dan_fransmart_com

You know the 150 biggest markets in North America US and canada canada most of the canadian markets behave like us. So I always talk about North America but um and then certain international markets like we’ve sold tons and tons and tons of deals internationally so like I already know where this is going to go.

16:22.24

vigorbranding

A.

16:24.47

dan_fransmart_com

I Already know the franchisees in those markets and so I know which ones are going to like the brand and why and how I have to package or maybe I have to cook it a little longer before I show it to a certain guy like I already kind of know that whenever I take on a brand. The most important thing.

16:38.66

vigorbranding

Nate.

16:40.62

dan_fransmart_com

When I get a new brand because I’m getting them at a very early very early stage. They’re still hair on them. They’re still rough around the edges. They still don’t know what they don’t know 5 guys didn’t have pos systems for example, like the whole all guys didn’t have dead carts right? They didn’t have pos they they.

16:44.30

vigorbranding

Me.

16:54.48

vigorbranding

Yeah, say they had carts.

16:58.36

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah, so it’s like that’s okay, that’s okay, it’s like I know the other stuff but that and ironically like what I know is not um, as important is the fact that 5 guys had a line out the door or ha all guys had a line down the block like I can figure out how to build a system or manual. Way faster than I can ever figure out how to organically get a line down the road like that’s that’s a different level. So yeah, that is the magic but what I do is is it’s really interesting like when I I don’t leave anything to chance. No matter who I’m selling no matter what brand what market and who the franchisee is.

17:15.21

vigorbranding

Right? That’s the magic.

17:30.87

dan_fransmart_com

I I act like they’ve never been in this business before because I want to be relentless about getting the right site. So like here I’m in Scottsdale right in Phoenix Arizona there’s for any concept. There’s 10 or 15 or 20 potential sites. But there’s really only 3 or 4 first sites.

17:36.65

vigorbranding

Yeah, he.

17:48.15

dan_fransmart_com

Like yeah to be very careful when you’re building a brand in a brand New Market is like there’s something very strategic about using real estate in real estate’s role in marketing and real estate’s role in branding and so you have to be really good of knowing exactly where your bull’s-eyes are and coming up with some logic around.

17:56.12

vigorbranding

A.

18:07.15

dan_fransmart_com

What kind of order you should be growing and so we’re that kind of pedantic even about real estate. It’s not just about hey I need a twelve hundred foot space or fifteen hundred foot space like no, no, no there’s so much more to it and then once you have the right spot you have to make sure that your unit economics hit. So that that’s the thing is like you can’t you can’t go into a spot and then have cost overruns or you can’t have what you know it needs the cost. What everyone thought it was going to cost to open it needs to open above. Whatever sales everybody was thinking originally it needs to hit profitability faster because there’s all these weird things in people’s minds that like even if it’s a great site and for some reason it gets off to a slow start all of a sudden people like oops not going like plan. And psychological psychological. Ah they’ll start making dumb decisions. They’ll start cutting people cutting marketing cutting problems like wait a minute and so we we assume all that stuff’s going to happen so we’re relentless about how we pick real estate how we market how we build the team I always say you got a staff for the sales you want. And you have to staff for the company you’re trying to build. We never sell mom and pop franchises ones e toosey’s we sell territories and so whenever we’re selling like a halal guys. For example, the California franchisee opened with a director of operations from Panera.

19:11.99

vigorbranding

Here.

19:25.37

dan_fransmart_com

Ah, director of operations from Chipotle and I think a director of culinary from one of those 2 concepts too. Plus the manager plus the owners were there well, that’s also why that first store in California self-funded 7 more is because you you know you basically open up with the the team’s bandwidth could easily handle.

19:32.00

vigorbranding

Well.

19:37.32

vigorbranding

Are here.

19:45.32

dan_fransmart_com

The kind of sales I think it was doing over three million a year and so you you have to sta for that if you if you open up doing you know $5000000 run rate with a million dollar team your sales go down. They never come back up and so like all of that little stuff. It’s like Dan you’re just the sales guy. It’s like mm.

19:46.10

vigorbranding

Wow.

19:55.19

vigorbranding

And he.

20:02.92

dan_fransmart_com

I I sell a lot of franchises not because I’m good at sales I sell a lot of franchises because I make the brand sell themselves So all the things we talk about are kind of how do we get the brands to sell themselves the best the best marketing tool Any brand would ever have selling a franchise is the existing franchisees and so.

20:07.58

vigorbranding

Man.

20:19.58

vigorbranding

Yeah.

20:22.35

dan_fransmart_com

You have to make those franchisees So successful. So happy so referenceable that even when you’re not, they’re trying to orchestrate just the right reference even if they just run into somebody what they’re saying sells your franchise.

20:34.20

vigorbranding

Sure I mean it’s the experience the the customers get the franchisees get everybody. It’s got to be. You know everyone’s a customer at that point right? You know they’re selling the the actual brands to to new franchisees. So that’s. I mean that’s ah, that’s a really really great point. So what is the biggest mistake you see like franchisees making like when they you know they’re first coming to you.

20:57.35

dan_fransmart_com

Um, Fran when a franchisee ah picking the wrong brand like if they pick I mean I if they pick the wrong brand if they don’t staff the right way like everybody think about why somebody wants a franchise in the first place. The only reason to own a franchise is to get wealthy like there otherwise.

21:00.70

vigorbranding

Man.

21:15.40

dan_fransmart_com

It’s not worth the risk like you’re risking capital you’re risking an Sba loan or A Loan you’re risking signing a lease now you’re on the hook for that lease for years. The liability, the cash outlay the liabilities and the contingent liabilities those are real costs. The only reason to do that is because you’re trying to get to a completely different level in life and so now the question is what’s the right vehicle to get there. So what’s the thing that that’s going to make so much profit that I want to keep doing it and how do I do it and so the mistake a lot of people make is they’ll pick the wrong brand.

21:45.53

vigorbranding

Um.

21:49.50

dan_fransmart_com

So they want to get to never never land. They just pick on the wrong the wrong brand to get there when they buy a territory so somebody that wants to own 5 or 10 or 20 units when they open up their first store and they open up with a skeleton crew. You know we all have we have so much turnover in the restaurant business. You open up a store.

22:03.81

vigorbranding

Sure.

22:07.62

dan_fransmart_com

With the skeleton crew and you even just have normal attrition. You’re constantly in a hole right? So you have to staff for the volume you want you have to staff for the company you’re trying to build that has to include redundancy has to include turnover so a franchisee who thinks a franchise only costs 300 grand to open.

22:09.63

vigorbranding

He.

22:27.40

dan_fransmart_com

It’s like yeah but you need another 100000 in these extra soft costs to basically get to the point you know to get to this point and so it’s people not really thinking that through or at the first sign of things didn’t go like I thought. They start cutting. They abandon the big picture and they go start focusing internally and what happens is you start managing that business down so that’s the biggest mistake and then another big mistake is people just not following the systems like I interview from my podcast. All these franchisees of other brands I’m like tell me the difference between you and the.

22:46.60

vigorbranding

And.

22:59.60

dan_fransmart_com

I Mean you like you’re one of the most successful franchisees and whatever the brand is I’m interviewing the guy for like what’s the difference between you and someone who struggles with the same brand almost to a T they go. We just follow the system and I said whenever you buy a struggling franchisee stores. How do you make them successful.

23:10.22

vigorbranding

A.

23:17.45

dan_fransmart_com

Go back and follow the systems just execute like people are buying 5 guys because they want that burger those fries to taste exactly like they think they don’t want chicken sandwich. They’re not there to get you know salad or whatever they want that like just go back to making that. That’s all you got to do and it’s people overthink it and it’s like.

23:17.80

vigorbranding

Leave you.

23:31.72

vigorbranding

Inconsistency. Yeah.

23:37.53

dan_fransmart_com

That’s all you got to do if you’re buying a jack on the box at Mcdonald’s if you’re buying you know a Jiffy Lube right it’s like whatever it is. It’s like people are going to that brand because they want that experience all you have to do is give give it that give that to them.

23:51.50

vigorbranding

Yeah, well I mean we always say like in in marketing what we do. We always say ah the definition of a brand is brand is a promise and you know in the case with the restaurants I mean if I go to 5 guys no matter which one I go to I want I want them to basically promise me and give me that same thing I want that same product I don’t want it to vary from place to place. So.

24:03.60

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah.

24:08.98

vigorbranding

I think that’s amazing. Do you find yourself because I have to think this is is somewhat the case because you find these I’ll say these raw concepts these great concepts whether it’s halal guys or 5 guys or or probably Qdoba when you start with them I mean you’ve you’ve launched them. Are you bringing? you always talk about a playbook. Are you bringing that playbook to them. Are you kind of saying. Yeah, this is great here’s how we operationalize this thing. Do you find yourself really kind of setting up the operations a lot I figured.

24:32.20

dan_fransmart_com

Um, almost always so not not I mean not only setting maybe some sometimes it’s just tweaking right or giving them some best known tool we have because some people in me actually have really good systems for.

24:37.50

vigorbranding

E e.

24:47.70

dan_fransmart_com

There are 1 or 2 or 3 stores that the owners are constantly there and even if they don’t have a written system. They kind of all know how each other thinks and you know all that stuff. So there’s there’s really just technique about the best known way to do everything I mean marketing staffing operations time and motion studies like everything you can think of.

25:06.70

vigorbranding

Me.

25:06.79

dan_fransmart_com

Like we have a tool in our toolbox for it and those tools keep getting changed. They keep getting retrofitted because think about marketing twenty years ago versus marketing today or tech the tech stack like there wasn’t even a tech stack twenty years ago so it’s like you have to keep evolving but our ecosystem in the restaurant business.

25:14.36

vigorbranding

Sure right.

25:25.52

dan_fransmart_com

Isn’t only every restaurant brand I’ve ever worked with I’m on the board of the national restaurant association. So there’s not really a Ceo I don’t know there’s not a big franchisee of any brand that I don’t know um I’m I’m ah oh and then kitchen fund. So we have a fund a kitchen fund.

25:29.85

vigorbranding

Um, yeah.

25:39.51

vigorbranding

The.

25:42.51

dan_fransmart_com

We were early investors in like sweet green and Kava and you know all kinds of different brands. So like our ecosystem’s pretty good and pretty valuable like we have a lot of really successful successful access in our in our ecosystem to always getting the best answer and so if there’s something coming up or something my brands are dealing with. Like I just go find 2 or 3 people that I know are just knocking it out of the park and you know we sort of get those answers and then we weave that back into our brand so it’s it’s a little bit of cheating. But.

26:14.52

vigorbranding

Um, you know? yeah.

26:14.64

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah, it’s something that we’re able to do you and I are on ypo together. There’s like most of the most successful franchisors and franchisees are in ypo and if you reach out to ah I mean I always say success leaves clues like if you’re trying to get a better answer like most people are pretty generous with their time like as long as you’re not overtly.

26:29.76

vigorbranding

Um, yeah.

26:34.18

dan_fransmart_com

Competing with them or annoying them. They’ll kind of help they’ll they’ll kind of help you figure that out. but but yeah but back to what the stuff we bring to the table is I think I liken it to a chain that goes around your neck like every link in the chain it takes to open a restaurant and operate a restaurant. Every link in a chain. It takes to what do I have to buy when do I have to buy it. What’s supposed to cost every link in the chain we feel like we have the best known chain with the best known links and so any brand that we take on who’s used to only having 1 or 2 or 5 or 9 or whatever it is like we’ll just have.

26:57.48

vigorbranding

Me here a hint.

27:09.24

dan_fransmart_com

All these links in the chain were like you know like some of the things they they may say no I’ve already got that I don’t need that but most often they they want help with that and then I’ve never seen a concept that I can’t figure out how to drive sales and lower costs like ah like drive drive sales I was on a call earlier today with a brand that that we’re looking at.

27:21.38

vigorbranding

A.

27:28.90

dan_fransmart_com

But it’s like you know it’s some of the stuff. It’s sort of like you and marketing like you could conversationally talk about marketing of stuff That’s just second nature to you to someone who’s not a marketing expert and they think you ah are you know a guru and it’s like I’m not really a guru I’ve just had we just have so many of these conversations.

27:38.24

vigorbranding

Right mean he.

27:48.31

dan_fransmart_com

And we’re constantly trying to figure out how how who’s doing something better than everyone else. So we’re constantly having this conversation about the best known way So when these conversations come up. We’re able to just rattle them all up and it’s not. You know it’s just nature of our business.

27:52.40

vigorbranding

Me.

28:03.61

vigorbranding

Yeah, and just we got to be refined, always refining so like I’m interested tonight. So someone called you and and I know you probably can’t say which I totally respect. But you’re looking at something I mean is it somebody that says hey I’ve got two like stores and I really think I have something here that could be.

28:12.14

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah, yeah.

28:19.50

vigorbranding

The next big thing the next 5 guys. Ah or is it stuff that like you might have stumbled on to something or heard about something I mean how does that? How do how do they come to you or how does that work.

28:28.61

dan_fransmart_com

Oh ah, well well those are 2 2 different things the way we get brands half the time they’re coming to us or someone will refer someone or someone says hey have you checked this out the other time we know what we’re looking for like we know what we’re looking for and we. We go after the best known players and whatever the market is so I’m I’m on this whole latin kick that nobody nobody’s done anything new in latin since Chipotle and they’re not even latin and so they’re as wide as I am and so we’re on this whole kick I met pitbull the rapper.

28:43.28

vigorbranding

Got you? he.

28:59.86

dan_fransmart_com

And he’s like how come no Mexican chains are owned by Mexicans and how come no latins own the big Latino restaurant brands I’m like let’s fix that because probably because they might have like some of the best tacos or its best best restaurants you’ve ever been or in the hands of authentic latinos.

29:00.16

vigorbranding

Um, he.

29:14.88

vigorbranding

Right? Bum pop.

29:17.96

dan_fransmart_com

Why haven’t they figured out how to build chains like I don’t know. Maybe it’s capital. Maybe it’s confidence. Maybe it’s know-how it’s like well we have plenty of all those. So now we’re targeting Latinos like pitbull and I are targeting Latinos with really good concepts we’re given a.

29:24.24

vigorbranding

He he.

29:33.10

dan_fransmart_com

Everything that both of us know think about his ecosystem like we’re giving him everything that we know to make to drive um success around that brand So we’re actually going to and we want to get wealthy helping Latinos get wealthy right? So that’s.

29:34.50

vigorbranding

Um, yeah.

29:47.57

vigorbranding

That’s fantastic.

29:48.95

dan_fransmart_com

That’s like but that that was one of these things where as soon as he and I came up with this I’m like okay now I got to go find a really great brand and in that case, what I did is I went to Us foods the biggest supplier in the country or one of the biggest suppliers in the country said here’s what pit bull and I are looking for who do you know. And all of a sudden they’re like this brand in Chicago we think is the next thing could be the next chipotle blah blah blah blah blah fly out to Chicago and it like you are right right? So that that goes from you know, somebody a Us foods we we told us foods like I told 90 people what I’m looking for us foods. Basically you know. Said here’s we have a lot of latin brands here’s one that’s a standout and you think about that too is like like us foods has something to gain too because now they have a client that goes from I think it was 8 stores when we got there now. It’s 13 with 6 or 8 new territories around the country. Now. They’re going to have instead of a 8 unit brand they’re going to wind up having a 500 unit customer you know and it was because they basically brought it up to us.

30:49.54

vigorbranding

That’s awesome. So do you think a latino brand. Do you think that’s going to be Franz Mars Next big big thing in the portfolio or you have something else cooking or what? what do you think the next big big thing is.

30:57.31

dan_fransmart_com

We we? Yeah, we have a few brands that are doing record numbers like this this latin brands called cilantro it’s growing faster for me so far than 5 guys did like our first several months is growing faster.

31:06.43

vigorbranding

I Love the name.

31:11.34

dan_fransmart_com

And it’s growing every franchisee is a franchisee of another brand and so they all have experience. They all know what they’re doing. They have capital but they also have a perspective of why they like this brand better than what they’re doing and so um, it’s interesting. Keep an eye on cilantra. That’s gonna be a fun one and then we’re.

31:25.93

vigorbranding

And again I don’t know who does your naming but I love that I Love the name Slanic because I think that’s so approachable yet It’s intriguing. You know.

31:33.69

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah, but it’s it’s like Chipotle right? So it’s like cilantro and and ah but it’s I mean it’s a real authentic story because I’m like the world doesn’t need another chipotle another mexican created by a white guy like they need. It should be like so our tagline or our.

31:43.75

vigorbranding

E.

31:49.14

dan_fransmart_com

Positioning is the next big thing in Mexican is actually really mexican and so this is a family that kind of you know snuck into the country and like so many do and started off ah humbly through life in America you know like the halal guys.

31:50.94

vigorbranding

She.

31:56.48

vigorbranding

He.

32:06.56

dan_fransmart_com

Ah, yeah, but they you know they came across and they they literally started opened up a restaurant to make a living to feed people to make a living turned out that what they were serving and it was latin for latinos so they started off their whole career is making this amazing. So think about how tough that customer is it’s not Latin Latino for gringos.

32:18.00

vigorbranding

Briefly.

32:25.61

vigorbranding

We hear.

32:25.73

dan_fransmart_com

This is latino for latinos and it was a standout brand that was doing crazy numbers and then all of a sudden they had opened 2 locations. They took over a failed baha fresh and it’s doing crazy numbers. They took over a failed chipotle right? That’s America’s darling is chipotle.

32:41.70

vigorbranding

Um, right.

32:44.30

dan_fransmart_com

Where Chipotle couldn’t succeed in this area of Chicago they’re packed. They’re busy and so you’re like wait a minute latino for latinos yeah, people like it and I’m like this thing’s going to be a monster and that’s why like I think we had 6 or 8 people come look at it all 6 or 8 of them are our franchisees now.

32:47.27

vigorbranding

Yeah, and again so it’s it’s quality. Yeah.

33:01.87

dan_fransmart_com

So they’re all buying the franchise but that and then the other thing I’m excited about we got approach and beginning a covid if you you remember when Covid first happened the government was scrambling every day with new rules and regulations and restaurants had to close or could only open every other seat or had to do dividers Whatever was driving the industry crazy.

33:02.11

vigorbranding

That’s awesome.

33:20.40

dan_fransmart_com

And I had a franchise lawyer that said hey I’ve got this electronics Brand Would you take it on I’m like I don’t think so I don’t know anything about electronics Long story short. We took it on that thing’s growing faster than any brand I’ve ever grown. It’s way more successful than any restaurant has ever been. It’s called pay more pay more electronics. It’s.

33:35.64

vigorbranding

That’s great, very cool.

33:37.90

dan_fransmart_com

Buy sell trade new and used electronics and the irony is a lot of food guys are building it and then all of a sudden I run across um, a ah facial Studio Skincare Studio called Glow thirty. So it’s a small little and and I was approached by her.

33:40.57

vigorbranding

She.

33:53.68

vigorbranding

You know.

33:54.36

dan_fransmart_com

Her commercial broker her real estate broker. She goes hey would you ever do like a facial place I’m like I don’t know I’ve never even had a facial and I I talked to the lady and she said hey I want to be the orange theory of skin care I’m like I don’t know what that means and I’ve never been to orange theory and I’ve never had a facial but I.

34:06.19

vigorbranding

And then.

34:13.40

dan_fransmart_com

And I saw the lady who was in Bethesda Maryland I looked on through my Linkedin I found somebody at orange theory and Bethesda and I said hey can I venmow you some money and you go check this place out and she said sure I’ve venmoed her some cash she went and checked it out. She looked up my background she goes I don’t know what your plan is with this brand but whatever it is I’m in.

34:30.79

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah.

34:33.90

dan_fransmart_com

And so she actually left orange theory came to work for me. She’s the vice president of 4 us growing low 30 and this is skincare clinic that’s growing faster than I mean it’s just grown like crazy. So we’ve gone from being a restaurant franchise development company to a franchise development company and um.

34:50.48

vigorbranding

That’s awesome.

34:51.84

dan_fransmart_com

But we keep looking for food like I’m I’m I’m ah I can’t offline I’ll tell you who, but it’s but we’re we’re working on a pretty pretty big project right now like I’m still I’m at the end of the day I like to feed people. There’s just something very rewarding about feeding somebody someone pays you for the food that you give them.

34:59.73

vigorbranding

Um, yes, yeah.

35:11.33

dan_fransmart_com

And they say thank you and they come back and they bring friends like there’s just something instantly gratification gratify gratifying about about that. So like I’ll always be in the in the restaurant business but the restaurant industry is getting a little wakeup call because it’s from a business perspective. It’s hard.

35:12.11

vigorbranding

Yeah, he.

35:29.54

dan_fransmart_com

Harder to make money nowadays in restaurants which is why so many like at this places glow 30 like we just sold all of Arizona to a huge food franchisee Greg Flynn the biggest franchisee in the world is this starting to expand with nonfoo and and ah yeah.

35:39.47

vigorbranding

Um, sure. Yeah, the the glow 30 thing look I’ll be very very honest I think it’s fantastic because I know that look feeding people makes you feel great. If you haven’t gotten a facial i. Absolutely recommend it I look I’m a father of daughters I’ll admit it I go every two months. It is the greatest thing on earth. So the fact that you are in the on the but the ground floor of a franchise for this brilliant I guarantee it will explode I mean I just ah, in fact I buy a bunch of the gift cards and I give them out to folks here in the office because I just think it’s like.

36:02.53

dan_fransmart_com

Um, yeah.

36:11.60

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah, well I it will now I can’t now so glow 30 It’s one of these members. It’s a membership skincare which is another thing it’s sort of like memberships is the ultimate hack because you make money while you sleep. You basically make money whether people use.

36:11.71

vigorbranding

Ah, great hour of your life. You know? So if you if you haven’t done it. Do it. Ah perfect. Yeah yeah, right.

36:28.82

dan_fransmart_com

Something or not when you have a membership think about fitness studios how many times you buy a membership and you don’t go and the fitness studio is happy. They’re happy because you’re not there so they wind up selling one hundred and fifty percent of capacity knowing that the third of the morons never show up. So um.

36:31.63

vigorbranding

Yep, yeah.

36:41.56

vigorbranding

Um, that’s right.

36:44.97

dan_fransmart_com

But that’s that’s sort of the membership model and it’s like man this thing you buy a membership and the ah but the irony here is people don’t not use it. So it’s ah every month the the facial changes right? So like in October it was like a pumpkin facialin.

36:52.97

vigorbranding

Are a are.

36:59.45

dan_fransmart_com

July I think it was like lemoncello or whatever but every month it’s a different carefully curated facial and people don’t miss it. So it’s not like you just get a facial and no big deal I get one next week it’s people like no, it’s the end of the month they’re going to change this month into next month I don’t want to miss last month so the reason I still haven’t ever been to glow is every time I come in for discovery day. These guys are booked out three weeks in advance. So like if you said you wanted a franchise right now for glow the earliest I could book your discovery day is like three weeks because we want you to get a facial as part of your discovery day. It’s like yeah and so.

37:19.90

vigorbranding

Oh yeah, yeah yeah.

37:26.37

vigorbranding

Wow Yeah in the in the facial is the product’s holding it up right.

37:35.15

dan_fransmart_com

So yeah, so it’s ah but it’s yeah, it’s funny, but but now I mean it’s franchising like we had. We is weird. We had a record year last year we we had more new franchise sales last year than ever the first quarter of this year doubled last year so like been doing this for 30 years and

37:48.56

vigorbranding

A.

37:54.11

dan_fransmart_com

And that’s even food like I mean our food brands like cilantro we have. We have the largest fastest growing indian brand called curry up now. So there’s another one. There’s a billion and a half indians when you think about how many indians and pakistani eat what looks like to you and I indian food. It’s like no one’s ever built a brand.

37:54.65

vigorbranding

Um, yeah.

38:11.40

vigorbranding

Um, right.

38:12.55

dan_fransmart_com

And so we you know now we have 100 units in development for curry up now. We just sold London so that’s now international. So the London franchisee is the subway franchisee for for all of Uk. He actually bought all of Uk for curry up now. So yeah, we’re going we’re going nuts we got dessert franchises. We got. You know we we got really good things but I’m drawn to things that have really good numbers. So like I have a cookie franchise called smackery in New York City and no one. There’s no real number 2 to crumble and nobody I mean crumble just went like a monster I tried to get smackery 6 or 7 5 five five

38:38.32

vigorbranding

8

38:44.17

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah.

38:50.41

dan_fransmart_com

Years ago before I ever saw crumble and I couldn’t even get him to call me back and then finally I knew someone who knew him and we made a deal about a year ago but there’s no number 2 to to crumble all the people that are trying to build cookie shops are all doing six hundred Grand seven hundred Grand a year this guy is. He’s in Eight hundred Square feet and I think he did two point three million dollars last year. So yeah, yeah, cookies 3 yeah so I mean ridiculous sales and and um, but he’s doing a difference. It was like well even in New York there’s a lot of other places that do under a million dollars why is he doing.

39:09.85

vigorbranding

Wow Cookies That’s fantastic.

39:27.26

dan_fransmart_com

More than double what everyone else is doing. It’s like that’s what I look for so like I look for concepts that just do like haa guys. There’s a lot of people selling meat over rice with sauce in New York only 1 guy had a line down the block. So I got him it was smackerys only 1 guy is doing whatever.

39:33.77

vigorbranding

No.

39:39.46

vigorbranding

Yeah, that’s right.

39:46.65

dan_fransmart_com

Thousand dollars a foot in sales. He’s $3000 a foot in sales or whatever he’s doing even in New York like by New York standards that’s still 2 times the sales per foot than any other chain does and it’s like well you know so there’s something about that which makes yeah which makes my life easy because I don’t have.

39:56.93

vigorbranding

Um, there’s some there. Yeah.

40:02.94

dan_fransmart_com

You know like I don’t have the guy that’s only doing 7 or eight hundred Grand a year in cookies I have the guy doing two point three million so makes my life a little bit easier.

40:06.62

vigorbranding

Yeah, very cool. Let’s let’s talk 1 more thing about that you’re’re you’re embarking on the podcast journey you’re gonna do smart franise you go talk a little bit about that.

40:16.50

dan_fransmart_com

Sure so I started a franchise. It’s the first question I ask whenever I meet successful franchisees or franchisors I’m like what makes you successful. What are you doing? What do you know that I don’t or what you know why are you getting results that other people are getting and so.

40:31.22

vigorbranding

Is.

40:33.95

dan_fransmart_com

Started smart franchising with frans smart I just believe success leaves clues and I feel like people are willing to share and so my first guest on was the biggest franchisee in the world. Greg Flynn he owns 2700 something franchises all over the world. He’s now going I mean I think he’s targeting 5000 franchises. He’s going to go to some weird number and it’s like okay, well and I’d ask him right on the podcast What do you do different like why are you getting the results you’re getting why are you and without saying it I’m kind of like why are you better than everyone else or what are you doing that people can learn from.

41:06.64

vigorbranding

Me here.

41:10.85

dan_fransmart_com

And surprisingly I mean he’s he’s obviously um, careful. Ah, but he gave some really good. Um, really good tidbits and then but like I had franchisees of 5 guys and and um, franchisee really successful franchisee from um, red robin.

41:27.74

vigorbranding

He sure.

41:29.52

dan_fransmart_com

Right? So casual dining is taking a beating right now. Well here’s a guy that’s doing double-digit sales increases and he’s still growing. So I’m like what thell are you doing that like Chilis can’t figure out in Fridays are closing restaurants and you’re building more restaurants you’re doing great. What are you doing and he’ll tell you he’ll tell you exactly as secrets as success.

41:38.98

vigorbranding

So in here.

41:44.92

vigorbranding

Yeah.

41:49.00

dan_fransmart_com

Ah, 5 guys franchisees like why? Why do you have 80 stores. Why do you? This other guy had 17 another guy had 80 like what is it, you do different than everyone else they leave that and one I had 2 other guys on that are really really cool by bunch but 1 of them was Don Fox from Firehouse sold a sandwich shop right? You think there’s not room for another sandwich shop or he builds one he sells it for $1000000000 so it’s like how did you do it like what can what can my audience learn or Freddy’s like even after fiveges. Freddy is the burger and and milk shake company.

42:08.98

vigorbranding

You’re right. Shift a.

42:22.10

dan_fransmart_com

Same thing like you get his whole story and you get how he did it and they tell it in a way that tells you if you follow what they did. You’re going to have the same result and then 1 thing right now that I think is mystifying a lot of people is the restaurant tech stack people don’t understand restaurant marketing or the tech stack. Most.

42:31.42

vigorbranding

Man.

42:38.63

vigorbranding

Performance.

42:41.80

dan_fransmart_com

Most people don’t get it I had a guy on that I think is the best and most brilliant in the space and he decoded the whole thing and not only decoded it I’m like give me the app to fix this. Give me the app to fix that if you were a franchisee. What are the first 3 things that you’d make sure that you did.

42:57.90

vigorbranding

Me.

42:59.16

dan_fransmart_com

And he went into detail about everything and so it’s you know stuff that he charges a lot of money as a consultant. He’s giving it all away for free so smart franchising with Fransmar is really just that. It’s like what’s this. What’s the best known way to do everything um in a way that people can learn from.

43:15.69

vigorbranding

Yeah I mean it seems to me and I don’t know if you found this but I feel like there’s a lot of the same ingredients I mean it typically starts with a really good quality product I think people think a lot of times when there’s a franchise or whatever. It’s like you figure out ways to ah ah skip. And to save money and certainly have to run the operation but it’s usually a quality product. Um consistency. Ah great operations and then I go back to that sort of that brand promise like there’s a story. There’s there’s this great authenticity that that kind of exudes and and kind of you can carry from place to place. We just had. I just had betsy ham ah from duck donuts on and that that’s a franchise that kind of grew I mean yeah, did the world need another donut shop I mean you know Russ Degiio the the founder thought so and and a great story I mean was it he was at the outer banks ah always thought of like you know going and getting fresh donuts at the beach the jersey shore we are. Lots of places have you know, fresh. You know, homemade Duck. He didn’t he couldn’t find one so he thought he should start a donut place at the outer banks out in duck and that’s where that’s where it came from and it was like I mean you know puts this together and it’s this. Ah, it’s this great franchise. So I feel like a lot of these guys have ah just a great story. A passion.

44:17.76

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah.

44:29.72

vigorbranding

And it’s an authenticity that you know makes it makes it kind of ah ah, magnetic that other people want it and and want to grow from it. Yeah.

44:33.49

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah, yeah, yeah I agree but that I duck don’t I Love duck donuts and they’re delicious, but you think about it’s like well how did he create that it’s like because he created it like how did I do what I did because he did it.

44:43.90

vigorbranding

Yeah, yeah, that’s it. Yeah yeah, yeah, that’s right, you know execute That’s right, you know don’t be afraid to fail the whole thing I tell my I tell my daughters all the time I mean look I failed a lot. So.

44:49.77

dan_fransmart_com

It’s like that’s the biggest thing is people sitting on the sidelines like you got to get going life is short. Yeah.

45:01.28

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah, yeah.

45:01.81

vigorbranding

The C student guy Again, you know you you fail. You just go out there and you know hey look hopefully you get an a here bring that average up to a C but you know you’re allowed to fail you go out and try things and pivot and and keep going. It’s it’s exciting. So you said you start your podcast out with the same question I end mine with the same question. So I’m going to.

45:09.78

dan_fransmart_com

Yeah.

45:17.85

vigorbranding

I’m gonna ask this? Um I look forward to your answer, you’ve created a lot of restaurants you’ve built brands all over the the world. So your last meal one final meal. What would you eat where and why and there’s a disclosure you’re not going to assault any of your ah ah franchisees. You can just pick anything. So.

45:31.60

dan_fransmart_com

Oh man, probably my last meal would be my last meal is going to be Italian and it’s probably going to be.

45:47.32

dan_fransmart_com

I don’t know got to think about this? um I wish you said it ahead of time but ah, but there’s a restaurant in New York City it’s my favorite in the world and it’s because the dad cooks the mom’s the hostess and the son’s the waiter. It’s called Sandros Sandros

46:04.57

vigorbranding

Sandros. Okay.

46:05.57

dan_fransmart_com

And it’s the best food I’ve ever had. It’s dinky teeny tiny but everything that comes out’s unbelievable. It’s the opposite of pretentious. It’s the ah I mean it’s just a neighborhood place that you could walk by a hundred times and never know it was there every time I go to New York I

46:13.37

vigorbranding

E.

46:22.30

vigorbranding

I I just wrote it down I’m in New York all the time. So I’m gonna I’m gonna try and fight is it in Manhattan it’s okay Sandros.

46:23.10

dan_fransmart_com

Block time to go there. That’s probably my favorite meal of all places sandros. Yeah yeah, yeah in the upper East but it’s like it’s awesome. Food’s good. Price are reasonable. You know and you all and you go there and you feel like they appreciate that you’re there the whole the whole load but it was definitely my last meal of no matter where would be Italian like favorite food I could I mean I Just can’t get enough of that. So I Love it. But yeah, Thanks ma’am.

46:39.42

vigorbranding

He. Yeah, you go? Yeah hey I Appreciate you know I could talk to you for hours is fascinating I Absolutely enjoy it. Thank you so much soon.

46:57.21

dan_fransmart_com

You’re welcome. We’ll see you soon.

Through his company, HospiVation, Jason coaches restaurant executives how to make their goals real in the restaurant and teaches restaurant managers how to transform their patterns of management to improve their hospitality leadership.

HospiVation helps restaurants through coaching, speeches, workshops and books. They try to meet managers where they are and dive deep in the restaurant’s team to help them build better teams. 

Jason has wanted to work in the restaurant industry since a very young age and got his first job as a restaurant dishwasher at the age of 15. He’s worked for 20 different restaurant brands during his career. 

One of the biggest mistakes restaurant managers make when it comes to leadership is trying to do everything by themselves and not learning to delegate. 

It’s important for managers to understand a restaurant’s KPIs, but it’s also important for EVERY member of the team to understand the KPIs and how success is measured.

In an effective meeting, the meeting organizer and leader should talk 20 percent of the time and the rest of the attendees should talk 80 percent of the time.

“I came in through the side door. I started out washing dishes at a very young age. My mother didn’t even know I got a job.” (Jason) 

“I’ve worked for 20 different restaurant brands and six of the top 100 brands in the U.S. This has given me the ability to see the Mona Lisa painted 20 different ways. All of those learnings helped to shape my company, HospiVation.” (Jason)  

“Ask any social media manager. It’s very hard to get people to follow you and it’s even hard to keep them.” (Jason)

 “It’s not just managing, leading and coaching – it’s knowing the difference between the three. We use managing more than anything else in our day as a hospitality leader. Leadership is different. Leadership is understanding the overarching items about the industry and where to move the brand next.” (Jason) 

“Coaching is the mastery of small groups and one-on-ones. Coaching is you creating a space of 30 minutes to listen to your team.” (Jason) 

“When it comes to mastering your meetings, you have to understand that if you aren’t sitting down to make a decision, you probably shouldn’t be there.” (Jason) 

“You should never stop training, even when someone puts in a notice (and are departing soon).” (Jason)

00:00.00

vigorbranding

Hello everybody today’s guest is Jason Brooks he’s a motivational speaker an expert in restaurant management and the author of the book every leader needs followers 10 keys to transform restaurant managers into hospitality leaders Jason. Thanks so much for being here. Um, I’d love to start off with just you talking a little bit about your past like some of the places you’ve been and some of the things you’ve done.

00:26.34

Jason Brooks

Thank you Michael ah, it’s a pleasure being on forktails in amazing podcast. Your listeners are full First they know their business. They know what they’re talking about so I am honored. Um, you know my past is like many. Pasts of coaches of speakers meaning that I came in through the side door and and I started out washing dishes very young age 15 first job. My my mother didn’t even know that I got a job. Ah, she just came home one day after three weeks of working and there were a lot more groceries in the fridge than when she went to work and she’s like Jason where did all this food come from and like mom I promise I didn’t do anything bad I got a child. But cooking has been something that has stuck with me even up to this day I still find different recipes. You could find me on the weekends breaking out the smoker I have a traeger whether it’s brisket or some chicken or some ribs and. I am getting down but I’ve been in this business I’ve been in this industry for thirty plus years and I’m known as what some may call a restaurant lifer. Um, even though I’m a restaurant lifer I had some odd jobs.

01:53.21

Jason Brooks

In between here and there because people that get in the restaurant business. They don’t typically wake up at the age of 7 and say I want to work in restaurants. You know they actually say I want to be a fireman or I want to be this? Um, so there was a time there that although I was good. In the restaurant business I fought it and I found that most people fight being in this business at some point because they think it’s trying to change them. They think that it’s trying to change themselves from being authentic. And it takes having that right mentor that right person that you lean on or your spouse or friend saying what are you doing you are you are good at this. You need to do this or you to then say? Okay I’m going to now truly invest my time in this. Um, but I’ve worked for 20 different restaurant brands 6 of the top 100 brands in the us and I always say this has given me the ability to view the Mona Lisa painted 20 different ways. Some of them are some amazing pieces of art. Some of them are just pieces but all of these learnings from all these brands help to shape my company called hospitalation which is hospitality and motivation and is putting that motivation back into hospitality.

03:23.31

vigorbranding

Fantastic. That’s great. Ah, and I you know I got to see some of your podcasts. They were wonderful and your energy is contagious I Love it. Absolutely love it. Um, so talk we’re gonna talk about your book. But let’s talk about hospiation a little bit I mean talk about what it does What you’ve been doing with it and you know give us some some background there.

03:27.43

Jason Brooks

Are.

03:42.45

Jason Brooks

Um, probation was made to help manage lead and coach restaurant tours executives back to some of the foundations that may have been lost, especially within the last four years there’s been some things lost within the skill set. Of our teams and also some some of of the things that as owners we need to recognize more of what our teams are missing to help close that gap so hospitalation helps to close the gap between. Customer or guest expectations and the operator or owner execution and we do this through coaching through speeches through workshops through books. Um, we try to meet. The owner meet the manager where they are and give those pieces and leave everything on the table I mean leave it all on field. There are no secrets. It’s just being able to help dive deeper into that team or into that person. To find out what really drove them to be successful and then help double down on those tactics on those skillsets for them to build better teams around them.

05:01.89

vigorbranding

Very good. Um I mean like you know I look at I mean we we employ a lot of folks here in our company and probably 100 and some employees and you know different generations come in and I’ve been doing this for a really long time and you know I see different types of sort of attitudes and stuff and. You know we we we all lived through the whole covid thing and the restaurants I mean getting back and coming back I mean you you have in here about the motivation. Do. Do you feel like restaurants and the hospitality industry in general has lost its motivation. Are you feeling that that that they need that maybe ah, an infusion of ah of motivation.

05:38.37

Jason Brooks

Um, I mean it is motivation. It’s also a understanding of finding out and just remembering what made you successful before.. For example, there’s a lot of times whenever. Let’s let’s go through the whole ranks when a cook shifts into a manager role. What made them successful as a cook they tend to leave that behind as a manager or a manager into a multi-unit manager. Whenever you are a manager you’re running your own restaurant. Um, you tend to use ah a checklist you tend to create mini gms you tend to have all these things in place because there’s so much on your plate. That you need reminders to help make sure that you cover all the bases that you need to cover and then all of a sudden when they shift into a multi unit manager they tend to shoot from the hip. They don’t have any checklist. They don’t walk into the building studying anything about that business whenever they walk in if they’re running multiple restaurants same thing as owners we think that we are exuding some of the same things that made us successful.

06:56.88

Jason Brooks

But we have to revisit. What is it exactly that made us successful within our last role and now how do we bring that into the next and that’s what that’s that motivation that is missing. We can’t leave things behind. We have to bring them with us.

07:14.34

vigorbranding

Good. So okay, let’s talk about your book I see it behind you there leadership every leader needs followers 10 keys to transform restaurant managers into hospitality leaders. Um, it’s not easy to get people to follow. You is it as a leader.

07:17.99

Jason Brooks

Um, I Yes, um.

07:26.71

Jason Brooks

No no, ask any social media manager it is it. It’s it’s very hard to get them to follow you and it’s even harder to keep them and that’s where that’s where some of the 10 keys. Covers is not only how do you build a followship and you have to be a wonderful follower yourself. But then how do you keep that as well.

07:54.33

vigorbranding

Very good. So what? What? What do you think are the biggest mistakes the restaurant managers are making when it comes to being an effective leader.

08:02.48

Jason Brooks

Hands down doing it by yourself I’ve seen it too many times we come in as a manager and we think that the things again the things I used to do I can just do it and then I’ll do it by myself. I don’t have trust and whenever you you try to lead a restaurant team by yourself. Yes, there’s things that you should bring with you but there’s a lot of management and leadership things that you have to learn because. Managing and leading a group of people is it natural. It is something that you have to invest time and and even money in order to make sure that you do this right? and when I say money as a investment time is money. When we put 3 hours of our life into something else that definitely cost us. We could be doing something else. But the return we get when we invest in the right way to manage lead and coach that return is just amazing and it’s not just. Managing leading and coaching is knowing the difference between the three because managing is using or or having a group of people keep.

09:24.99

Jason Brooks

Keeping them in the guard rails to hit a certain point by a certain time and remain within a certain budget. We use managing more than anything else within our day as a hospitality leader leadership is different. Leadership is is really understanding that. Overarching ah items about the industry about the trends about what’s going on about where to move the brand to next and it’s also when a group of people have run into a situation that they don’t know what the next step should be. And then that leadership mindset helps to shift it into painting the picture for them to see ah that’s exactly where we have to go I can’t believe I didn’t see that before now coaching is different than managing and leadership coaching is that mastery of small groups. 1 on one. That’s the thing that we forget to bring with us whenever we are trying to lead our teams is the coaching aspect. We think I don’t need to coach my teams. My team has been around been working together for the last two three years I pay him $15 per hour. They better know what to do, but it’s just not true and coaching also isn’t just you making 1 on 1 time to spew more stuff onto them coaching is actually you creating a space 30 minutes to listen to your team to find out what their challenges are.

10:59.85

Jason Brooks

But they’re trying to accomplish about themselves a a about their family. All the things that helps build that relationship that when they’re in your building In. You’re not there. They have the the skillset to make the right choices with maximum results. That’s the key to coaching.

11:20.24

vigorbranding

Yeah that’s ah, that’s well said I know that a couple of things you said there were really really interesting. The 1 thing you said it was a big mistake people make is they do it themselves and you’re right I think as leaders sometimes we’re so used to doing things or we know how to do it and we take it for granted, we don’t take the time to for for lack of a word teach. And bring people along right? I mean you know it’s just ah, it’s one of those things where um, if you don’t take the time to to train and coach. Ah, you’re not you can’t expect them to to learn and and to excel I think that’s ah I think it’s a really good point that you made. Um so you know in your book you have 10 keys for effective restaurant leadership.

11:48.90

Jason Brooks

Um, but.

11:54.74

vigorbranding

Want to talk about 1 of the one of those keys and you talk about kpis I mean obviously it’s important for the managers to know about the kpis but you feel it’s important for everyone to understand talk about that a little bit. Why why? Why are the kpi so important.

12:08.80

Jason Brooks

Because of what we do every year as a business every year if you look at your window. Not just we do it every business that is on your block does the same thing they create this business plan. They make the business plan. They put a core of people that’s in the c-suite or just on the on the ownership team they make this business plan print it on a pretty parsial paper put it in a frame hang it on a wall and then maybe a senior manager or 2 knows exactly what that is. And by the time it gets down to the guest-facing employee. It is lost so what I mean by master your kpis as being the number one key is that it isn’t just knowing your numbers It’s not just knowing sales. And and and your profits and your losses it is about how do you create that number and make a connection with the human element that is in your business every position and either help you or hurt you in making those business goals. The question is whenever we make those goals or big rocks. Do we know what we’re doing when we make those big rocks and whenever I say big I like to use the acronym b I g not just because I like the rapper but b I g because b if it’s a big rock.

13:35.69

Jason Brooks

The B is for believable is the goal can it actually be attained I intentional. Yes, it may be a goal but are you actually putting effort is your team putting effort behind making that goal happen daily and then G grounded. Grounded is if we don’t make this goal. We will not be successful at what we do so whenever we make those goals those big rocks Those Kpis are we making it believable intentional and grounded and then when we do. How do we create that same pattern for what the buser does what the host does what the matrid does what? what the cook does every single person has to understand what is the human element in the things that they do within their role 3 things that they can do to help.

14:31.40

vigorbranding

Very cool. So I mean sometimes though the Kpis the numbers and all that does that get in the way of the customer experience can that some kind sometimes dilute or detract from the attention that they deserve for the customer experience.

14:31.48

Jason Brooks

Make that happen.

14:37.92

Jason Brooks

And. I think that’s where whenever you break it down to make the human element behind it. That’s where it makes sense because you can say that it is to grow sales. But if it’s only about the dollar item. And you’re only telling that for just the server that they need to grow sales that doesn’t make sense that does take away from the from the experience but whenever you can say whenever you can actually connect with your guest and get them to come back 2 more times because you wowed them. Because you beat the guest to the hospitality meaning you were getting things for them that they didn’t even ask for that. You remembered their anniversary when you can make that true connection and make them choose us over someone else on on the same block. That’s how we build sales. So yes, it is a number but when you can connect the human element to it. That’s whenever you can actually you can improve that experience not just make it numerical.

15:50.00

vigorbranding

Yeah, you nailed it I mean at the end of the day we’re we’re serving. We’re serving guests and it’s people and we want to make their day. We want to make them feel special and it is more than just numbers at the end of the day there’s numbers involved when we gets paid. We’re doing this for business. It’s ah it’s a living. It’s a passion but it’s you know it all comes around the the customer I think that’s super important I think that ties into the next thing one of your chapters in your book owner like orientation. Ah, really interesting. We. We have a thing here in our company. Um, we we as an agency. Ah. Have a thing called Homeroom which goes back to the old school days we get together on a Tuesday morning the entire organization multiple cities and we we talk about the good the bad and the ugly of the industry and at the end we ask people what they’re passionate about passion is one of our core values. And we also talk about putting your name on the door and what we mean by that is if your name was on the door. What would you do what would you do differently how would you improve the company what do you suggest and so I think that’s like a really important thing and ah we want I want people to to act like owners if owners care. Ah, owners care about the customer so owner like orientation half the feeling might might tie in there. can you can you talk about that a little bit.

17:03.48

Jason Brooks

Yes I think that definitely when we bring our team in with the bigger picture things happen and what I mean by that is that we typically do orientation wrong right now we’ll bring them in. We’ll have a table ready some aprons shirt hat name tag. And then they’ll have a seat a stack of paper and then they’ll scribe until the pen runs hot then we’ll take them back. Put them on a laptop for possibly some computer-based training and then put them on 1 position what we’re doing right? There is that the only thing that that they’re owning is three things. 1 table which happens to be their favorite break table if you ever notice the table you do orientation at ends up being their breakck table then 2 a laptop and 3 1 position and then for the next 6 to eight weeks we’re hoping and praying that they tend to branch out to do more. While the people who train them are just going crazy because they’re like Steve where are you getting these horrible hires from they don’t want to do anything so that’s where we first start out with doing orientation wrong which is one of the easiest way. That any listener can change their ro I on a new hires. What I propose is this tick scene table same setup papers all all of that good stuff when you bring them in shake their hand ask them if they’re thirsty and then say where we we are going to start outside.

18:37.73

Jason Brooks

You take them outside and not just outside you take them out all the way out to the road by the curb on the edge by the cars driving by and you then say this is your restaurant and this is mine too and this is the view that every single customer sees whether they are stopping by here or not. They they see it from the curb all the way in and this is how we look compared to our neighbor and this neighbor we actually pick up all this trash from the curb all the way up every single day because we want to make sure that we look amazing to everyone that chooses to eat here or not. And then you walk them on it. We also sweep the parking lot not just up to the curb but all the way to the edge of the lot. This is our sidewalk. We actually scrub this this is our trash cans whenever we drop trash. We pick it up and then we sweep it and we keep the doors closed because we want to keep all the flies inside. We don’t want them flying out and then as you’re doing this as you’re walking them as you’re walking them through you’re you’re also checking their body language. How much does it suck whenever you hire someone and three weeks later they’re like ah this is too much for me I’m out of here wouldn’t you want to know on day zero. This is not going to work out. So as you’re walking them around the exterior giving them that owner like view as you walk them in now talk about sightlines for the customer and break it down to a 1 a 3 and a 5 a one being the lowest or subpar a 3 being par.

20:11.50

Jason Brooks

And a 5 being exceptional service and then you’re talking them through what a 1 3 or 5 is at the host stand with a host creek with it being neat and being tidy as they’re walking through the dining room what they can hear from the kitchen ass are sitting down. You’re now connecting. Your guest experience scores with your walkthrough and they now understand and see the whole building more as you’re doing this? Yes, you do add on forty five maybe fifty more minutes onto your onto your orientation. But the return on investment you get. Of them knowing that they can help when they pull up in the parking lot. Not just when they’re in position and then your trainer’s like oh man Steve these new hires you you you you ah must have got these guys from chick-fil-a. Dunked them in the back office in holy water and then brought them back out saying please and thank you like? no actually I just made sure that they understand the big picture on day one and then that way when I pass them off to you. They now see things differently.

21:22.40

vigorbranding

That’s great. That’s great, Well look as a marketing company I mean we’re hired to help build brands and oftentimes people think a brand is the logo the name. Maybe it’s the social media the personality that we project in the in the advertising and all that which is they’re all parts of the brand. But.

21:26.83

Jason Brooks

He.

21:38.69

vigorbranding

At the end of the day I mean it’s how the customer feels when they’re in there. It’s the product of course. But it’s also the experience and that’s part of the brand. So the folks you’re training are your brand. Ah you know evangelists and they’re going to be what people remember when they drive by to use your your analogy going by the road and they look over at that restaurant. They’re going to remember how they felt.

21:40.57

Jason Brooks

Greater. But we can.

21:57.93

vigorbranding

When they were there Sure they’re going to think about the food and if it was good and it was a good value. Did I they treat but that that experience and and it’s really going to be those folks that you’re training that are going to make that good or bad and we’ve all eaten it. Phenomenal restaurants. Food was great and and the the service was bad, something went wrong along the way.

22:04.97

Jason Brooks

Are are are.

22:15.71

vigorbranding

And in this day and age we can’t afford that I mean every touch point of the brand has to be at its peak and the people are are really integral to the the whole thing um key 6 another one of your your your your keys now I think you and I might disagree on this. Maybe we don’t I don’t know but I’m gonna I’ll dive into it. Master.

22:31.87

Jason Brooks

I.

22:34.68

vigorbranding

Master your meetings I hate meetings I think meetings end up being half of them more than half of them are a waste of time perhaps because I’m in them I don’t know but I just I don’t find them to be I don’t find them to be valuable at all and you know you have agendas you have follow through. You have ah deadlines and all that stuff. But. So talk to me about mastering a meeting and maybe ah maybe I’m going to learn a lot here because I have a feeling I’m going to.

22:59.23

Jason Brooks

Well first we suck at meetings and no, no, we we actually suck at meetings because there’s times we we ah ah have meetings in order to fill.

23:02.30

vigorbranding

Okay, maybe that’s it Maybe I sucked at me. Maybe ah maybe maybe that’s when I learned this whole thing. Okay, so.

23:16.30

Jason Brooks

Time and space a meeting should be defined as the reason why I’m asking you to step away from your role is because the thing that we need to make a decision on. We can’t unless you are there. That’s it.

23:32.81

vigorbranding

Me here.

23:35.97

Jason Brooks

If that doesn’t apply to the person that’s at the table. They shouldn’t be at the table 1 and 2 you probably shouldn’t be having that meeting now a a meeting that is repetitive like let’s say a manager’s meeting why sometimes they suck. Is because it is a data dump. It is a absolute data I treat meetings the same way I treat one on ones except even a bit more extreme if it’s my meeting that I’m running I should be speaking 20% of the time. The rest of my team is speaking 80.

24:12.30

vigorbranding

And.

24:14.29

Jason Brooks

And that’s because at that point I’ve already done um key number 3 in the book which is delegate by creating many gms I have created many managers within each department and their goal is to report out on. What’s going on and those goals from from my many gms are linked to key number 1 master your kpis they understand what the kpis are they understand the human element that is behind it and they deep dive on that data and bring it to the table. So. When it comes to to key number 6 mastering your meetings. The main thing you have to do is understand that if you weren’t sitting down to make a decision. You shouldn’t be there and 2 if it is something that is a consistent meeting. It’s a 20% from the person that’s running it and 80% from everything else because when you do that you then build this ownership and a different view on things within your building I’ll say one last piece we have gotten into firefighting way too much. We have some amazing firemen and fire women within the hospitality industry but we’ve got to stop firefighting because when you firefight you shoot from the hip you see the fire you pull the hose out.

25:41.82

Jason Brooks

And you just start dumping water on that fire. But when a fire happens in a building think about it. You’re facing one side of the building and you can only see one side.. There can be several things that is going on all around that building. We’ve got to stop being. Fire men and fire women and we had to start being fire Chiefs A fire Chief has firemen and fire women all around the building putting out these fires for us and we can say the same thing about these meetings whenever you are fire chiefing your meeting your fire team. Understands exactly what’s going on but you have put them in places around your business to know where those spires are to where you have better control of everything else.

26:30.96

vigorbranding

That’s good analogy I mean I I love analogies and I think that makes it very so that’s why you’re good at what you do I mean it was very easily understood. Well done. Um, okay so training we talk about the importance of training right? and we ah we know it’s important to train.

26:32.72

Jason Brooks

Are.

26:44.63

vigorbranding

Ah, you feel it’s important for ongoing training which I think is interesting and and certainly makes an awful lot of sense. Um, why why is that I mean like let’s face it with with a turnover in this world with with people. Maybe they’re not going to be in the job for three months why would I spend so much time training them. Um you you feel that’s important. Let’s talk about that.

27:03.91

Jason Brooks

Yeah I definitely feel that um, never stop training is one of the keys to being successful and of course we like to say it but we don’t really like to budget it. We can train our way in and out of anything. We really can. How we fall short of executing never stop training is that we don’t have a training plan that again goes back to what the plan is we have we have a training plan. Yes, but it’s a training plan one. That’s probably been the same training plan for the last 3 4 or 5 years versus each year do we sit down and say now that our objective is this? how are we training it’s not just how we hit that number. It’s not just growing digital sales. It’s not just getting better marketing. It’s. Do we have that included within the training poke in in the in the training program for our teams or are we just adding that in here and there second piece to never stop training is it absolutely as you and I both know it needs to be written down that that doesn’t mean. That our team currently trucks at sucks at training that means that our team has several things on their mind bills spouse car. All that good stuff they are going to lose their thought and their focus.

28:31.35

Jason Brooks

On the thing that they should be training that that should be a core fundamental. That’s whenever that never stop training that checklist training helps because we we want you to say all the foundational things and with how long you’ve been with me I still want you to add on. That whipped cream the cherry and the sprinkles on top from all the things that you do well to but I want to make sure that the foundation of what’s being said to every single person is done last piece on never stop training I believe that you continue training. All the way up to their last day even if they put in a two week notice you train them all the way up to their last day and do you know why? because if you have 50 people that’s on your staff and you now have 51 because you are replacing one that put in their notice. It doesn’t help you by saying well I got one more so I’m a stop training the person who’s leaving no whenever you train the one that’s leaving you are also shifting that training you’re shifting that mindset you’re training them. How to onboard onto a different team even if it is your competitor you are training them how to get on board. How to get to learn the people how to get to learn their culture because a few things happen when that happens one everyone around you.

30:01.10

Jason Brooks

It’s watching the attention you’re still putting into the person that’s leaving and they’re like that is a true coach and then number 2 number 2 is how many times is it that the grass is truly greener on the other side. So you shipped into the alma still keep training you I’m going to train you to be the next whatever that you are getting into. Let’s say you get there and it sucks guess what’s going to happen. Ah Jason ah I actually want to come back because grass isn’t greener. Then you’re able to now still build on your team but I truly believe you should never stop training even when they put in a notice.

30:42.62

vigorbranding

Yeah I Think that’s Great. We’ve had an awful lot. We call them. Boomerangs. We’ve had several people leave during the great resignation. You know for the grass being greener and we’ve had several boomerangs come back and you make another really wonderful point and that is people around you that are on your team that are staying on your team that are. Loyal and dedicated. They see how you treat people when they leave and um, that’s a reflection on you as a leader and I think that’s really important to to keep that in mind. Ah you know if you sit there and say bad things about somebody. You know the moment the door closes behind them just ah, that’s just really a poor reflection on and on you as Leader. So I think that’s ah I think it’s very sage advice.

31:08.00

Jason Brooks

Are you.

31:20.12

vigorbranding

Right? So um, we talked about training another thing you talk about which I find this to be I think this is really important ah closing the gap between the restaurant manager and what the customer sees I mean again. Ah you know we always often say we’re too close to it I think that may be the case here with with managers you want to talk a little bit about that.

31:20.86

Jason Brooks

Brother I know.

31:39.10

Jason Brooks

Oh yes I I love this topic um and closing the gap is is. It’s there because we live the 2 wheel life michael do you know what? the 2 wheel life is okay.

31:50.89

vigorbranding

I do not know what the 2 wheel life is I don’t own a motorcycle so I assume that’s what it is but I mean maybe not.

31:56.87

Jason Brooks

Is that although our car has 4 Wheels we are pulling into the parking lot. So damn fast. We may as well be on 2 wheels and do you know why? because we’ve gotten that fourteenth text with the fifth picture about the close last night and our main truck call said that they’re short on drivers and now the truck order is due. third third 30 minutes ago and payroll calls someone forgot to clock out last weekend and you have to log into the portal and change your hours or else they can’t process payroll so that’s why you’re on 2 wheels. Doors open Bigfoot Dragon trying to get out the car and you walk up to the front the host and has a line and you’re like ah let me come help get these table sat bus some tables run to the back, get the line down. Finally get your truck order in fix payroll. But by this time. You are on fire. Your heartbeat is racing 120 beats per minute you are lapping like Nascar you’re touching tables. You’re pointing out things to clean and you’re like whoa girl I’m on fire this is amazing. You work a triple double that day heartbeat racing. And you get home somehow fall asleep and then your email goes off ding and it’s that guest complete a 2 on clean. They had a horrible experience. You just about flip your table but they’re lying no way I was there all day.

33:30.25

Jason Brooks

I worked the whole day I was lapping like Nascar I was touching on tables I was telling people what to clean. There’s no way. But there’s a gap. There’s a gap between what the operator experiences and what the guest does and that gap is because we are walking through like the terminator. Head on swivel I view Twenty feet out twenty feet wide looking for the next fire fire hose on the hip just looking for that next fire and we are standing at at an average five foot six height looking down to see what that next thing is. Our customers though. It’s very different their heart rate actually slows down when they’re pulling onto our lot first, they want to see are we open. They want to see is the parking lot. Clean does it look like someone lives here. They then pull up they get out. Ah, the car slow walk up to the door and then the the guest learned this trick from covid they now check the little slit of the door to see is the bar there because they don’t want to yank um, make on the door and pull their arm out their sockt like ah it’s open. So then they finally get in like yes I can stop eating from the dashboard of my car they walk in their heartbeats slow down things are good and then they sit down and they’re sitting at an average of three feet high heart rate heart rate has slowed down eyes are dimmer.

34:59.56

Jason Brooks

When your eyes when the the ah light is dimmer your your pupils actually get bigger and then whenever you’re looking at a distance of about eighteen inches from the table to your food. You are looking at that eighteen inch and then no higher than three feet while the manager heart rate fast 20 by 20 view and walking quickly. There’s a huge gap there in order to close that gap one of the things that that you have to practice which is hard is pulling yourself out the shift. Scheduling yourself to not be in position sometimes that’s hard. We are trained from day one that when things are short we are locked in. We make that happen. But at least once a week you have to take that customer view and I’m not taking and I’m not talking taking the view. Right? before it opens. That’s like having a super bowl ad well before the game starts when it’s peak periods walk out to your lot all way to the edge view. What’s going on because that’s when the most advertising is being done walk up through the lot. Then walk in then you’re listening in then you’re hearing what’s going on when you do this during peak volumes once a week even if you can’t once a month

36:24.00

Jason Brooks

That helps you to understand what that what the guest is actually going through versus well before opening or after close.

36:33.99

vigorbranding

That’s great Jason I love your passion I got to tell you so like what? what’s what’s next for you. Ah, you’re making your rounds as the speaker I mean is there a new book any trips coming up.

36:44.20

Jason Brooks

And there is a if there is a pocket companion to the book that is going to be coming out. Ah the every leader pocket guide something that managers owners can can actually have on them. Ah, a flip book style to be able to keep them on track to never lead alone again. I actually have another ah session. That’s that’s coming up for the international bowl expo that’s going to be in Denver um I will be at the qsr. Evolution conference with Danny Klein I’ll be moderating one of the panels of how to scale culture. Um, there’s a few more speaking engagements that that I’m closing in on now. But it’s been very busy, but it’s been great I get to meet lovely people just like you just like your listeners and talk great shop about what’s going on and how to put that people piece with the numbers in order to better manage lead and coach.

37:47.34

vigorbranding

Yeah, it’s it’s awesome I mean this industry is a way of life and it is ah people dealing with people and I think that’s super important and it does make it very tactical and grounded and it’s ah it’s great to have people like you out there helping lead and coach and teach. So ah. That’s fantastic. So I have one last question. Let’s go I asked this of everybody if you had 1 last meal. What would you eat where and why.

38:10.40

Jason Brooks

I have 2 answers for that first answer is a place that I haven’t been yet but I hear great things about and my last meal for that would be Oso Buco from pierro’s in Las Vegas

38:24.16

vigorbranding

Nice.

38:26.68

Jason Brooks

Ah, heard that they make some amazing. Oh so puco. But that that would be 1 that I haven’t been to but would love to um, second one is I’m going to cheat and say that I’m very. Egotistical and I love my own food if you just give me the food and let me cook it I will that will be more than glad to be my last meal. So I I would do brisket. It takes me about three days um beef brisket i’d.

38:51.52

vigorbranding

What would be what what? what? What are you cooking for yourself.

39:00.41

vigorbranding

Nice.

39:02.74

Jason Brooks

I trim it my I trim it my my ah my ah self and then I will slather it with some horse radish I make my own rub. Let it sit for about 48 hours smoke it low until it gets to write about one sixty pull that baby out wrap it in some parchment paper. Put it back in. Let it get to 206 pull it out at 8 put it inside the cooler just a regular cooler for 4 hours slice that baby up make the barbecue sauce from scratch and then do a smoked bake mac and cheese. With some grilled corn and um, yeah, that’s it right? there? um.

39:44.65

vigorbranding

It sounds fantastic I even eat lunch day so I’m starving. That’s you did well that was that was as good as anything that’s beautiful, beautiful well done so hey listen Jason thank you so much for your time and your insights it was really really ah educational. Thank you.

40:00.59

Jason Brooks

Thank you Sir and I do appreciate the invite you listeners have ah ah a wonderful time Fork tales. Thank you so much. This has been great.

40:07.34

vigorbranding

Awesome! See you soon.

Thanx is a leading loyalty and guest engagement platform for restaurants. The company, founded by Zach Goldstein in 2011, helps businesses embrace digital purchasing, capture greater customer data, and take action on that information to personalize guest engagement.

Thanx builds digital UX – mobile apps and web ordering experience – that help restaurants differentiate themselves. Thanx also offers dynamic self-service loyalty programs that help restaurants break free from cookie cutter loyalty programs. 

Before joining Thanx, Emily was a business intelligence consultant.

Restaurants face many challenges when it comes to data, including not having resources to analyze and take action on data available to them. They also don’t have a good way to centralize the data and make it useful. Restaurants also struggle to capture enough data. 

Many loyalty programs fail to capture enough data because the programs are difficult to sign up for (often requiring an app) and they make customers jump through hoops to use the app or program. 

Thanx loyalty programs think outside the “Spend X, Get Y” box to offer unique loyalty programs that don’t rely on discounts. That includes offers of special food items or LTOs to loyalty members or all day happy hour for loyalty members. 

“There’s problems associated with getting data and then there’s the problem of doing something with the data (after you get it) that’s meaningful to the business.” (Emily) 

“Restaurants generally don’t have the resources in house to help them make sense of the data that they have.” (Emily) 

“Far and away the most common challenge (for restaurants) is that they’re not capturing enough data.” (Emily) 

“Most revenue is still flowing through in-store channels. This is where loyalty comes in.” (Emily)

“Loyalty is the only proven mechanism for broadly capturing data and driving repeat purchasing from it. And yet, most loyalty programs don’t capture enough data.” (Emily) 

“There are a few restaurants doing loyalty really well. For the rest of restaurants, those loyalty programs are all very similar ‘Spend X, Get Y’ programs. Thanx allows you to build unique, differentiated, bespoke loyalty programs.” (Emily) 

“Not only do non-discount programs work better, they also cost less.” (Emily) 

“If you look at why restaurants aren’t personalizing (programs), most of the time it’s not because people think it’s not important or it’s not going to drive results. It’s because it’s really hard to do.” (Emily)

00:00.00

vigorbranding

Hello Today’s guest is someone who knows a lot about data and loyalty programs which are two extremely important topics for restaurants and any brand for that matter. Our guest is Emily rugabier and she is the Vp of marketing for thanks with an x. So thanks for joining us Emily Rut Gaber I’m sorry I practiced it three times. So.

00:19.99

Emily 

Yeah, happy to be here and you almost got it rugeber very close. Um.

00:27.57

Emily 

So um, yeah, very happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks is a guest engagement and retention platform for restaurants. Ah so that’s kind of a mouthful so I’ll tell you what that means? um. We build digital ux so we build mobile apps and web ordering experiences that help restaurants sort of differentiate themselves their first -party ordering from their third parties as I’m sure this audience knows all too. Well, the third -party platforms are higher margin. They don’t get a lot of data shared with them about the customers. And they’re actually being served ads potentially from competitors on that platform and so there’s a lot of reason to want to have your customers order directly which we help brands do we also offer really dynamic self-service loyalty programs that help restaurants sort of bake. Break free from these cookie cutter programs. You know that they launch and then they never change and many of them don’t drive measurable results and then lastly we’re a complete crm and marketing automation platform really sort of differentiated in terms of ease of use. So. There’s a lot of platforms like ours on the market. We really focus on trying to make marketing as easy as possible. We know that every single restaurant that I talk to when I talk to their marketing team. They say they’re bandwidth constrained and they sort of laugh when I talk about this because it’s so true.

01:51.36

Emily 

And they don’t have time to waste on the mechanics of creating campaigns. They want to do personalized marketing but they want to do it in a way that’s really easy so that they can get it done and prioritize it.

01:59.89

vigorbranding

very cool. very cool so okay so let’s talk data last year nation’s restaurant news said customer data is the Holy Grail of restaurant success and you know we have a data analytics company. We know that mining data is super important. We can learn everything that there is to know and.

02:06.30

Emily 

Yep.

02:18.30

vigorbranding

Allows us to make great decisions. So the same article reveal that 70% of restaurant operators don’t feel like they’re properly optimizing customer data knowing important how important data is why aren’t more restaurants making more use of it.

02:32.49

Emily 

Yeah, and just a little bit about me I sort of mentioned to this to you before we were talking before I joined. Thanks I actually worked as a business intelligence consultant I was advising some of the largest enterprises I worked with nestle I worked with sap I worked with Target Virgin America and um. This is true, not just of restaurants. This is true with many many businesses. It’s certainly not a unique problem that restaurants have but the way I like to think about this because it’s such a large sort of meaty topic is to break it into 2 categories of problems. There’s the problems associated with getting data in and then there’s the problems associated with.

03:09.23

vigorbranding

Here.

03:09.42

Emily 

Doing something with that data that is meaningful to the business so sort of breaking it down in that way and just thinking about getting data in there’s ah you know a few common challenges that we see I think restaurants generally they don’t have the resources in-house to help them make sense of the data that they have. A lot of times they don’t have the technology as well. In the case where they do have some data a lot of times the data really lives in Silos and so they don’t have a good way to centralize it and sort of make sense of it and make it usable for their internal teams and the last challenge which I think is by far and away the most common challenge. Is that they’re just not capturing enough data and this you sort of have to break it down into the online aspects and the in-store aspects I think restaurants have gotten better at the online piece just in light of the fact that they’re transacting more of their business online. Although there’s. Ah, huge amount of room for improvement with online and then there’s the in-store piece I think most revenue is still flowing through in-store channels and so um, this is where loyalty comes in right? There’s ah. Ah, variety of other avenues for capturing Data. You know you hear about wi-fi marketing you hear about reservations. For example, Loyalty is really the only proven mechanism for broadly capturing data and driving repeat purchasing from it. Um, and yet most loyalty programs.

04:23.99

vigorbranding

Man.

04:40.37

Emily 

Don’t capture a lot of data and and that’s because I mean there’s ah, there’s a couple different reasons but that’s in large part because they make guests really jump through hoops in order to engage with the program. It’s difficult to sign up. You know you have to download a mobile app How many mobile apps. Do you have on your phone.

04:40.45

vigorbranding

And.

04:58.66

Emily 

Ah, maybe you have 6 or 7 but there’s a lot more restaurants than that so they force you to download a mobile app you have to show a qr code at the register in order to earn progress and you’ve got a line of 10 people who are frustrated at you because you can’t get internet on your phone.

05:18.51

Emily 

They make it really really hard. This is an area where Thanks is really differentiated.

05:22.20

vigorbranding

We talk about a little bit more about Thanks how how is yours different. How does it look feel how how is it easier to use.

05:31.97

Emily 

Um, yes, that’s obviously a really big question the way I like to think about it is there’s sort of 4 different categories where we’re differentiated. So like I mentioned before loyalty tends to be pretty one size fits all so you know. As a consumer going to restaurants. You know you obviously have engaged with the programs. There’s a few really sort of um, there’s a few restaurants that are doing this really really? Well right? We all know the Starbucks and the chipotles and the dominoes who are doing this really well. But for the rest of. Restaurants by and large those loyalty programs are all pretty similar spend x get y um, and ah, what thanks does differently on this dimension is we allow you to build really unique differentiated bespoke Loyalty Programs so that means going outside the structure of like a spend x get y you can do really cool things that don’t rely on discounts. For example, you can offer. Ah you know a special food item. Maybe an lto some throwback from.

06:39.86

vigorbranding

Sure.

06:42.19

Emily 

Ah, the past that worked really well you can offer that just to your loyalty members for a short period of time or you can do you know um, all day happy hour for loyalty members or for a segment of your guests. You know your very best loyalty members and so creating a program that’s bespoke. That’s really. On brand doesn’t rely heavily on discounts as sort of the first area I already mentioned the piece around marketing really being designed for ease of use. There’s a variety of ways that we implement this but think of lots of automation really easy a b testing the interface. Self is really dynamic easy to use it loads really quickly all of that good stuff and then the last piece that I would say is really important is this intersection between online ordering and loyalty and this is not an area that most loyalty providers get right? because it’s really hard.

07:19.58

vigorbranding

Great.

07:35.43

vigorbranding

I hope.

07:37.27

Emily 

Every single loyalty provider and every single ordering provider are going to have distinct integrations that enable distinct capabilities and so being able to build a best-in-class integration with a variety of online ordering providers doing it in a way that’s really seamless. That’s really hard to do. That’s something that think does really well give you an example of that we have automated campaigns that you can turn on basically with a a switch of a button after you’ve designed an email which automates the process of ah you know. Incentivizing somebody to come back to an abandoned cart. So you’re about to order lunch. You realize you’re late for your meeting. You put the salad in your basket. You’ve got everything ready to go but you realize you have to go and so you leave that cart abandoned the next day you get an email that says hey why don’t you come back.

08:15.93

vigorbranding

And.

08:33.45

Emily 

You know, pick up where you left off here’s a dollar off to do so that can be completely automated. No ah you know, additional effort after the initial setup through things and through our partnerships with best in class ordering providers.

08:36.48

vigorbranding

That’s great.

08:47.22

vigorbranding

Yeah, because I mean to your point like a lot of loyalty programs are punch cards and stuff I still do one for my dog food. You know you go to punch it and and after 9 bags I get a tenth bag free and you’re you’re creating more of ah more engagement and almost like a. Ah, vip thing right? You’re treating people special by by by doing business with you being loyal there’s there’s hidden menu things like you said offers things like that and that probably and creates ah additional engagement I imagine right? and probably gets repeat visits visits and everything else.

09:09.83

Emily 

Um, ah.

09:16.42

vigorbranding

How how successful has that been is that do you have any kind of ah information around that.

09:18.88

Emily 

Yes, So there’s sort of 2 ways to think about that one is the success of the revenue that it drives and the other is the cost savings and I think on both dimensions we’re seeing that they perform much better than the alternative sort of more rote Programs. So. Um, and of course like this is that’s a broad statement. That’s not always True. You have to test these things you have to see what works which is something that we offer as well. But um, generally speaking we see about 4 times better redemption rates on targeted Non-discount rewards.

09:55.14

vigorbranding

Oh.

09:57.28

Emily 

So that’s the first piece. Um, it’s kind of like when you go get on an airplane right? or like when you’re actually before you even get on the airplane when you’re buying your ticket. Maybe you go to kayak and maybe you look for the best price and you know maybe you find a flight but there’s certain airlines you’re not going to go on.

10:14.60

vigorbranding

Oh.

10:16.70

Emily 

And there may even be that 1 airline that does cost a bit more but you go for it anyway because you know there’s a chance you might get upgraded or you know there’s a chance that you’re going to get better treatment from you know the staff ah because you’ve got that you know status and that you’ve earned. And so you know access to wi-fi these things that aren’t necessarily um, you know, direct to your bottom line but do make you feel this element of having status exclusivity et cetera so that’s one dimension. The other dimension is the cost savings. We see that.

10:35.80

vigorbranding

I.

10:53.62

Emily 

Not only do the non-discount reward work better but they obviously also cost less now some of these things have operational costs I’m not saying that. That’s not the case. Ah but a common ah idea that I tell restaurants all the time is take an existing menu hack something you are already doing you know your regulars they come in and they say hey can I get this sauce with this salad I Know it’s off menu.

11:06.83

vigorbranding

And.

11:13.60

Emily 

And they’ll do it for you because it’s easy take that put it on your menu make it a special. Um, you know members only exclusive or top tier member only exclusive and um, use that as an incentive it costs you nothing.

11:27.33

vigorbranding

I love it. Makes everyone feel like an insider makes them feel special and endears under the brand. So what do you think is like the number 1 mistake that you see restaurants making when it comes to designing designing these loyalty programs.

11:30.59

Emily 

Yeah, exactly.

11:41.20

Emily 

Yeah, it’s a hard question because there’s a couple of them. Um I think a lot of times the the first one that I’ll say is I think a lot of times brands spend a lot of time upfront when they’re launching their loyalty program trying to come up with the perfect.

11:44.72

vigorbranding

Um.

11:57.27

Emily 

Idea for how the loyalty program should be structured I’ve actually heard of brands hiring very expensive management consultants and paying them hundreds of thousands of dollars to help them come up with their initial program structure and there’s not necessarily anything wrong with that. It’s expensive. I would suggest you know unless you can really justify that and have vetted that thoroughly just get started try something obviously talk to your loyalty provider and they should be able to provide best practices and recommendations but try it get started and then iterate on it. Once you launch the program your customers will tell you what they like right? you got a reward marketplace with 15 rewards in it and you’re seeing that you know 3 of them are never touched. That’s probably a good opportunity to reevaluate whether those rewards should be on the menu. Maybe they should be on the menu but they need to be. On the menu at a lower cost and you can figure out based on the effective discount rate of each of your rewards. What makes the most sense and what’s most cost effective. So that’s the first one is I would say like don’t overengine engineer the upfront setup but just iterate on it over time. The reality is.

13:07.61

vigorbranding

7

13:11.33

Emily 

That’s really difficult to do in most loyalty platforms and so you have to talk to an account manager you have to do a six-week development cycle you have to do kind of like a transition a full relunch of the program. Um, so there may be some technology barriers there. But if you can. Try to think about it as like an ongoing iteration as opposed to a point in time thing that never changes brands on thanks change their loyalty programs on average 9 times a year yeah exactly the the other one that I would say is we regularly see brands.

13:35.13

vigorbranding

Fantastic I Assume you help them navigate that.

13:47.22

Emily 

Prioritizing cost saving measures in loyalty program management opting for cheaper technology solutions or you know minimal rewards offerings. They don’t want to make that upfront and investment. But I think an over emphasis on.

13:57.22

vigorbranding

Yeah.

14:03.16

Emily 

Cost savings can result in lower program participation and missed revenue opportunities in the long run. So when you invest in you know, high quality technology partner and sort of innovative reward structures. You can really start to maximize ah Roi of the loyalty program and drive that sustained growth which is the whole point.

14:20.60

vigorbranding

Very cool I mean we see I mean everything about data is personalized customer experiences and I know that’s what you guys are all about but yet we still see all these restaurants doing this one size fits all stuff and it just doesn’t work. Does it.

14:34.95

Emily 

Um, yeah, it’s I think that one size fits all marketing the broad base top of mind marketing does have a purpose you’re trying to stay top of mind. Um. That being set it has to be complemented by a more personalized approach for sure. Um I Think if you if you look at why restaurants aren’t personalizing most of the time It’s not because people think it’s not important or it’s not going to drive results.

14:50.19

vigorbranding

Have you.

15:07.92

Emily 

It’s because it’s actually really hard if you’re going to run a personalized strategy. You’re probably creating 3 emails instead of 1 or 5 emails instead of 1 somebody has to design those emails somebody has to determine what the strategy should be somebody has to.

15:20.58

vigorbranding

Ah.

15:25.25

Emily 

Determine What the incentives should be and what the messaging should be. That’s that’s real work that someone has to do and as I mentioned before a lot of times these restaurant teams are really really small and they don’t have a lot of Bandwidth so it has to be really easy and I think um, the other challenge is maybe you put in that effort. And you put in that energy and then you run the campaign and you get a result and you say was that good was that bad I don’t know was it better than I would have gotten if I had done nothing is there something that I could have done that would have been even more important and so you’re left with this sort of unresolved state.

15:51.14

vigorbranding

You.

16:03.86

Emily 

And now you’re thinking was all that effort. Really worth it and you just don’t know and so I think this is where multivariate testing can come in so you can actually sort of see okay was free fries versus the free shake versus doing nothing at all actually worthwhile and you just let the results of the campaign.

16:18.31

vigorbranding

Drive it? yep.