Formed by Jesus Podcast

  welcome to the form by Jesus Podcast. This has been so fun. We are on the topic of Sabbath. We're trying to do as many convers. With our church members as possible.

Just different stages of life, different stages of maturity and different stages of the practice really leaning into. Some people are brand new at this. Other people have been doing it for a little while or forever. And I'm excited that Lisa Thompson is in the house. Welcome, Lisa Thompson.

Thanks. It's great to be here. Thank you. So tell us a little bit about yourself first, for those who maybe don't know you, like where are you from, how long you've been with our church, those sorts of things. Sure. I'm originally from the great Northeast Rhode Island specifically.

I've been back and forth to Arizona a couple times. The last time I moved back here was in 2018 and that's when I started attending Passion Creek. I got here in August and I think October was when I started. Yeah. We've been so blessed with that and I, the connection was your previous church was also in a movie theater.

Yeah, exactly. So you just had to come. I had to check it out. I love that. It was like going home that Sunday. I knew this is where I need to be. Nice. 2018, it's been so it's That's amazing. Five years. We're coming up. Five years. Five years. Yeah. That's great. And I love that you liked the movie theater cuz for so many of us, it was like the thing, it was the hurdle for people.

I thought more people would think it was. Yeah, and it was more of an obstacle for people really. Yeah. Yeah. Everywhere. Back east it was pretty natural and it didn't seem to be an issue, but I did. I loved that. I always told people We have the best, most comfortable seats. Nice. In a church. We don't anymore, but that's okay.

All right. Although we did get like the most question I saw, portable chairs we can, and so it made it a nightmare to figure out how to stack because the. The stacker that we bought was for thin chairs. Oh. And you've got these thin chairs. And so we had a custom build what we have now, which they're incredible.

They're light, they're, it was a whole thing. Like it was so funny. We were almost done with the whole church setup, in January we bought everything, which was a nightmare. And we're like, we have everything, but we don't have something to haul. The chairs. Never thought that was so funny. You have a stage, you have all of this stuff, but you don't know how to move the chairs.

But that's the situation we were in. But they're good chairs. Yes. I comparatively, but so we swapped out the popcorn, but now we at least get coffee and donuts. And donuts. Yeah. All that kind of stuff. We were not allowed of the theater, which we understand it's a business there. Yeah. But anyways, so it's fun.

It's fun to talk to people in the OG days. Yeah, it was good fun. Especially with the covid shake up and stuff. There's not as many, like a lot of people, they don't even. Yeah, our church, what it looked like before. Yeah. Yeah. It was at all. It was. I loved it there. I, but I love Passion Creek the minute I stepped in.

So where you go? I will follow. Thank you. Yeah. You have proven that. You have proven that, so I love that. Let's start talking about Sabbath now. Okay. First of all, you've been such a joy to our church. We love you so much. You've been great for our groups. You've been great just for so many, in so many ways, hospitality, and so thank you for who you are.

And thank you also for practicing the practices, like you were with us. I think 2018 was a pretty pivotal year for us, especially 2019, the beginning of 2019, we really started talking about. Yep. A lot of these practices, it was a, I almost wanna say it's like when our church began, as far as it's like a new era.

It's almost like I, I thought of the other day, maybe Passion Creek has had three different lead pastors, all of them named Trevan Camp, but. But I level different iterations and different, whatever. So one of 'em was 2019 of just really I was impacted by it in my own life in 2018.

And so then we started to talk about it. Yep. In 19, I remember. And I remember what were some of your initial thoughts even that when we're like all a sudden I emphasizing these practices I, I would probably say, where did I end up here? Where am I again? Because it looked a little different than this, the church I stepped into in October of 2018, and then these the verbiage changed a little right around practices and spiritual formation, and I'm like, am I in the right place?

Wait a minute. But I, it was familiar enough to me to understand, the context and where it was coming from, but it was also really, I think, scary for me because Have to step out of a comfort zone. Or two or three or probably a lot more than that. And it was a little nerve-wracking, but exciting at the same time.

You were so helpful for me. Cuz I have that personality where if I think I'm excited about something, everybody's excited about it. And so great that you were like, hey, Like it was a, you didn't tell me initially, but once you started seeing the payoff, you were like, by the way, Trey.

Yeah, this was, I was really skeptical at first and I thought, did I sign up for the wrong place? And so it's been helpful to remember that honestly, as we prepared for this Sabbath series with so many people not hearing some of this for the first time, recognizing there's gotta be pushback, there's gotta be fear.

Yeah, there's gotta be, why are you making, why are you doing this? Yeah, this sounds too religious or it sounds too mystical, or whatever. Yeah, I think it was the mystical part. I'm like, is this, am I, and that's where the questions in my own mind came. It was like, I need to really listen more and go into the Bible too, to make sure am I in the right place, is all I can come back to.

But it really, it all lines up everything as it should be. And Nice. It's not. It's not as crazy as I thought it was at first time. Maybe the heart of a be Acts 15. Like checking it against scriptures. That's exactly right. So what was your life like before practicing Sabbath? It's really strange.

I think my story might be a little different than a lot of others cuz I was in a really d different season of life. No children in the home. No, my life just wasn't busy. It was very easy. I work remote. So not a lot of outside intervention. Nothing spectacular. When I think about Sabbath, I often think about people at a different stage in life because they have kids and activities, and so I always thought.

I'm not sure if I really need it. If I really need all this rest that everybody's talking about. And I remember with 2019 when you started practices, we would do the 21 days of practice and that's when in Sabbath I think was initially introduced. Yes. Yeah. And I stuck my toe in the water, so to speak then.

But I don't know if I took it as seriously as I should have. Again, it, my life is so quiet. I'm like, I'm already there. Whatever. I'm getting all the rest I need. But no. When you look at it deeper, when you go a little further into it, it's the type of rest that you've always, you've been talking about these last weeks.

It's not just stopping and watching TV or mindless entertainment or whatever it is. A holy rest is, you've talked about, it's just I think of it as a, now it's a focus on God. That time I have is God's time. I'm focused on him in whatever it is I'm doing. It doesn't matter what I'm doing.

He's there at the forefront. That's good. We really found a lot of people felt that especially when the first couple weeks would just stop and then rest. And so we were intentionally like leaving out the full picture. A lot of that being like worship and scripture reading and like how do we really engage in like a Holy Sabbath?

But we realized for so many people in a different stage of life, they didn't know how to stop. So it's let's start by stopping but then lead into it. And I think that's what you're saying too, like I, I know how to stop. I can do that easily. Yeah. But like how do, what about that delight factor?

Yeah. Gratitude and really presenting it to the father, and that's the step. So I've always felt. Oh, not always. There was a time, a season in my life where I struggled at work for a while and my attitude probably wasn't where it should have been. So I did, I started a gratitude journal every morning. I got up, I wrote down three things that I was grateful for.

Awesome. I did that for about a year, and so I, I thought, oh, I have this delight thing, this gratitude down I do, I am grateful for everything and I know that, but presenting it to the father, there's the step that was missing. It was having. I call it a conversation with God about that gratitude and about the things that he has just blessed my life with over and over again.

And Sabbath is so intentional. Yes. Yes. I think that's like what you're leaning to, right? Yeah.  I have this spirit within me. I have, yeah. But like I haven't set aside those a 24 hour where it's special holy into the Lord. Yes. Where I'm repeating those things. Yes. So can you, I loved how you shared it with our church a few weeks ago.

Can you give us some examples of the practices that you have found within that Sabbath day? Even tell us when it starts, all those things. Yeah. Like those tips. And I don't wanna say tricks, but I know it's, it is I my Sabbath, it looks a little different than a lot cuz I recently did take on a second job.

It's so funny. I took on that job right as we were starting the Sabbath series. Ah, so let me tell you, that has been the it has almost saved my sanity Sabbath because you're. A difficult schedule sometimes, and so to really consciously practice Sabbath during this time, which all of a sudden got busy for me, I, it's been amazing.

But for me, I have to be a planner around Sabbath and not necessarily the things that I do, but the time. Mm. Because I have to look at about a week or so ahead of time and say, okay, where is that 24 hours gonna be? So typically, like I shared it typically starts on a Wednesday. At 6:00 PM I work 10 hour shifts on my first job.

So I finish Wednesday at six, I have Thursday off, and then pick up again Friday at seven in the morning. So the best part of Sabbath I think for me is I get to share the very first step in Sabbath with my together group. Yeah. Because I go to together group on Wednesday nights, I share the communal meal.

I get to have the, that time with what I would consider family, right? And just enjoy that and then, The activities, or whatever you wanna call it around Sabbath, start on Thursday. And that can, as I shared before, that's recently been more relationally involved. Spending time with my grandchildren, my children, friends, maybe I haven't spoken to in a few months, just get together and hang out and catch up on life and, create that.

Bond that I think I'm gonna need as I go on in life. Just have people around me. Yeah. And that has created more of a social circle for me than I've had in a lot of years, which is wow. That's so good. I'm really proud of the ladies in our church. I think if I can call out the men, they've done a better, you guys have done a better job on the community side.

I've heard different stories from different people and people within our church, like getting together and going to a farmer's market or Yeah, doing a biking class. Just hanging out. Yeah, just hanging out. I think that's anytime we talk about the spiritual disciplines, I think we so naturally think individual personal, shut off from everyone.

And that's sometimes very helpful. But that is such a, that's just a portion of what any discipline is, let alone Sabbath. We had talked about on that fourth week, how do we worship? A big takeaway is you need to have some alone time, right? And you need to have some community. And really plan is you gotta plan that out, right?

You have to plan, but you also have to be flexible. I've found for me that there has to be some flexibility. I'm a planner by nature. That's who I am, and that's what I like. I like it set. But I've also learned over the years, wisdom teaches you those plans may not exactly go away. So you've gotta have some flexibility in there.

And that's been a great part of it too. I may make plans with somebody and they can't make it. Does that mean my Sabbath is ruined? No. That just means God, you and I gotta find something else to do. Yeah. Whether it's, hit up a park and walk, or, call another friend or even if it's just that sitting home alone and listening to some worship music and Yeah.

Doing some, I. Used to be quite creative. I'm trying to get there again, maybe do some things that will bring out that creative side in me again. Yeah, crocheting, right? Yes. I love, it's just so weird. I have turned into my mother. I have turned into her. But it's a, it's just one of those things that I can do with my hands, but yet at the same time, I can think about God, talk to God, and thank him for all these wonderful things.

Sometimes my life overwhelms me. How wonderful I feel like it is, man, that's wonderful. Yeah. That's so rare, yeah. That is not a common what a sign of the Holy Spirit on your life. What a grace. I was gonna say, oh yeah, Jordan for Hersh Watercoloring, yes. Watercolor painting. I have ab.

Thankly. No talent in that. I've tried. Oh, nice. Yeah. But she says it gets her into that rhythm where everything else is blocked out. Yes. And you can just really commune with God. Exactly. For me, mine is biking or kayaking. Yeah. So for me, I like to do something like my whole body is engaged.

And then it just sets my mind free, it's something that where, yeah, my mind doesn't have to be, I'm not taking up space with other things in my brain. Then I can put God in there. Yeah. I love that being planned, but be flexible at the same time because speaking of kayaking, I thought, man, the weather the way it is, I'm gonna kayak for the first time for my Sabbath, which was yesterday.

Yeah. And it didn't work out because I wanted to do the river. And that you can't do alone. Yes. Like literally you can't because like where would you park your vehicle? Cuz you do have to do at the start of the finish and it's just mathematically impossible. There's parts are closed down right now due to the Oh really?

The high levels? Yeah. Cuz it's Oh, the water, the rain. Yeah. The levels and stuff. Yeah. Oh see? Yeah. I don't even think about that. Yeah. There's some places that you can't, they close down some recreational spots. Ah, interesting. Yeah. So I was like, you know what? That's okay. We're just gonna. And and be okay with that and be okay with it.

And I think part of it. I don't have any expectations. I much of my life, I've always, and that's what has gotten me in trouble so much in my life, is here. I expect it to be this way or that way. I have no expectations except that God's gonna be there. That's it. But God's always gonna be there, so that's a given.

Not necessarily an expectation, but I don't have, I don't feel like I'm gonna walk away so much better or so much more of something. If I do, that's great, but if I don't, I've still had time with God. Wow. I've still done that. That's, oh, I love that. And I think that's the heart of worship.

I'm not in control. God, you are. And so if you want to make this feel like it's beneficial, wonderful. If it's not wonderful. And that has been a rub for a lot of our people and for myself it's just fun. Cuz I'm five years into this. And so I, as I'm talking to people, I'm remembering some of the initial resistance.

And that's one of 'em, cuz some of my preaching series was, Hey, this is, this will benefit your body. It will benefit your mind. It will benefit your soul. But it doesn't have to, it's a command, like Exactly. Exactly. So at the end of the day, it still should do it. It's obedience.

Yes, it's obedience. And sometimes that obedience doesn't bring the reward that you think it should bring. It brings maybe a different reward, maybe one down the line maybe never. But it is, there is something in the way I look at it. There's something to be said in being obedient to God, just to be obedient to God.

Yes. It's just he knows so much better. He'll ever know. And he's proven that in my life over and over again. So that may for me come a little easier because. Walked a few more years than some folks. Yeah. You've been broken, right? Oh yeah. We, yeah. That's a story. Expectations have shattered you, right?

Yeah. So you learned, oh, maybe that's not my life story. I don't need to hold on to those. Yeah. We I'm reminded of the parable, Jesus and the servant when he talks about the servant. Waiting to be like rewarded and thanked and it's like you're a servant. You did your job. Yeah. And it's such a funny parable for us, cuz it's what do you mean?

Like I thought God would just be so happy. Something that's no obedience is obedience. Just do it. And that's the reward because you. Did it. You don't need anything on top. Yeah. And if I were to actually, me and Pastor Caleb were talking about right now we're doing the IM statements in the book of Jon.

Yep. Yep. We have one random week before we start our scripture formed by scripture series, which I'm so excited for, to like, how do we dive into the scriptures together in community, which theoretically we do every week anyways, but to really focus on it. But we thought about doing like one more Sabbath sermon, right?

Like a co-teaching. And that's part of these conversations like, oh, obedient. I'm trying to write them down in my brain and just say, Hey, here's what everybody's been saying. Let's celebrate. I think that's all. This isn't the end of a practice. Nope. Like we're really trying to stack, we're trying to stack these things and we think Sabbath is a good one.

I do have a question for you. What is something you will always say no to on Sabbath? Because really Sabbath is a yes day in many ways, but there needs to be a no to something. There absolutely is, and I've got my hard nos and it seems so simple and so easy, and again it is easier for me to say no to this because I do live alone.

There's no housework involved. There's no extra errands involved, and that's because the person that I am, my personality is if I get up. Unload this dishwasher that's gonna lead to washing the counters, washing and sweeping the floors. And then, oh my gosh, the vacuuming is gotta get done. It doesn't end well if it's a Sabbath activity.

And it seems so simple. But that is it. It's those things. So running errands, oh, I'm just gonna run to the store, grab a few things while I'm out, I'm gonna be thinking of other things, that are just I prepare a lot ahead of time. I make sure. That everything is ready so that I'm not doing anything kind of household or chorey at all.

At all. Because I, it just will lead into, this isn't Sabbath, this is a normal Saturday or normal Sunday of what you're gonna do. Yes. And if I don't get to it, I, because I have a, I live in a smaller apartment, kitchen, for example, can look a little messier if you don't get the dishes done right away, right?

It's just a space thing. And there was one Tuesday, I just didn't get to the dishes. I had to work that evening. And in my brain works like, oh my gosh, that it looks so cluttered. That looks so, oh my gosh, you gotta do that. So we'll do it tomorrow. And then in my own little head it said, no, you can't, because if you do start that tomorrow morning or after work, you're not gonna sabbath.

It's gonna, it just. Put my brain in the right place. It needs to be. Yeah. Which needs to be at rest, right? Which needs to be stopped because that's where my work happens, is up in my brain. Yeah. In pastor Caleb and I did have a conversation, like I live up here sometimes there's a lot that goes on, so that needs to be stopped, and if I start a simple activity like that, it turns on my brain again.

It's not gonna get the rest. So your take away was to do it that night? No, I left it. You're okay with I left it being I had to be okay and leave it. I was, yeah, because I didn't get home from work till 10 30 at night and then I gotta get up and work another 10 hours and then No, I'm like, just leave at Lisa.

Yeah, I wanna speak to that. I think it's so good. I think, Sabbath is also a day just to make space for the grace of God, and that's to make space for the power of God. And in all grace, there's been a lot of people from our church. I say I just, I can't is if my house isn't clean. I know. I get that.

Then it's over. Yeah. And so I don't, because I get, I'm a com, I'm a man. I can compartmentalize. It's like cool, I'll just forget that exists and I can move on with life. One thing I have been doing, cuz it is big for Jordan my wife is she, I. I do a lot more around the house lately to make it easier on her.

The few things that she's good at and clean. So it's a team effort, right? And then it's easier on both of us. But it's helpful to remember Hey, Sabbath is about saying, God, I can't, but you can. Yeah, I am weak. You are strong. And so it's saying, God, give me the strength to be okay with that, with those dirty dishes.

And let me just keep giving you glory. It's a great way to say the flesh is weak. It's, but the spirit is strong, so I'm leaning into it. And in those 24 hours that you're gonna give to God, what is that pile of dishes gonna do, Lisa? It's not gonna change that experience in that time that is so precious with God.

Yeah, because you have some dishes. It's dishes in the sink and it's hard. I get it cuz I am living in small spaces for so many years. You. Pretty organized and pretty like together. So it's just hard. It's hard. And even working, cuz my workspace is by my kitchen and I'm working all day looking, working out there.

I couldn't let it go, but I did let it go. I had to, and it was just a conscious effort. You have to just. Even if you have to just talk to yourself out loud. No, I'm not gonna do it. Yeah. That's just not gonna happen. But I also understand the other side of it. I have a daughter with two young kids and working and a husband who works and I can understand the other side of it with I just gotta get this done.

Yeah. Otherwise I'm not gonna enjoy. But also the irony is if you have kids around the house, oh, I just need to clean this. They're gonna mess it up in the middle of Sabbath anyways. Yes. You It's the thing, you when my grandchildren visit, I don't even clean. Yeah. I wait till they go.

Yeah. And they're, when they're at home with mom and dad, they're of cleaning up after them. And I was that way. We, I think we all are. Yeah. But, and now I look at it and go, oh yeah, no, not the best way to do it, guys. Just let 'em mess when they go to sleep big. So I consider you someone who has really embraced Sabbath easier than most.

And I think it's someone, you're someone who yeah. Just seems to have the right perspective on it. And I think also it helps that you've had a few years at least entertaining the idea. Yeah. I know. We've never been so focused on it until this year, but at least we've been talking about it a little bit, but what are some of your struggles and frustrations now with Sabbath that maybe you didn't have when you started it?

Wow, that's a, are there new dimensions? Oh, there's another layer that I'm hitting here. That was, it was easier when I started and now this part is tough, right? I think it's the, what to do is getting tougher because like I do, I spend time with friends, but I, I. Don't expect, that's always gonna be the way it is.

And to not let my brain get to that place where, okay, next week, this is what we have to do. Instead of spending time with the kids, you're gonna go do A, B, and C. It's and not letting myself slide back into that pattern of, if I don't have a place to go or something to do, let's just throw on Netflix for, yeah.

12 hours or how, whatever. It's just being very aware that. It could be very, I could easily go back to where I was and then if that starts to stop myself and say, okay, so a great example is this week everybody's busy. So what do I do for my Sabbath this week? It's for me it's gonna be get out. I wanna go check out some of the super bloom we're having out here in Arizona and just be out there, be in God's creation. I'm not a super hiker, obviously. I'm not the most, I'm not gonna hike up the side of a mountain, but I can certainly walk through, the botanical gardens or something and just enjoy and be part of it.

But initially it was, oh, if you don't have anything to do, then you don't have to Sabbath. No, Lisa, you have to Sabbath. And I have to say, This is just another little push for Sabbath. Since getting a second job and getting so busy, it has really having intentionally, putting aside that time has made having a second job so much easier for me.

It really has. You would think I'm going crazy and I'm so busy. My second job is very opposite of what I do for my primary job. So that's helpful. Yeah, very helpful. It gets me outta the house. I'm around people. I told you I work in, I know. I still visit Greg. My, the kids came last night, but, oh, fun.

It is so much fun to be there and to be around people that sometimes I even think, wow, this is almost a Sabbath activity for me as well, because Totally. It's not, it's work, but it's not work for that production value, right? It's, I'm enjoying, I'm laugh. I'm just, I have such a good time.

It's so big. That's awesome. And it's like, it's all the the little ladies like me walking around the store up stuff. It's so much fun and it's been so enjoyable. But I also know that I think if I stopped Sabbath, if I missed it, It would then tend to become hard for me. It would then be like, oh gosh, I gotta go to this second place.

It would be less enjoyable. I really believe that, because I believe that when you talked about, I can't remember which sermon it was about. Are you physically tired, mentally tired, emotionally tired? If I didn't have Sabbath, I would be physically exhausted. Because it's 20 hours a week there, 40 hours a week there.

That's a lot of work. haven't, ever since I've started Sabbath thing, I have not felt physically exhausted once working two jobs. Wow. And that amazes me yeah, like I should be tired. You, that amazes me too. Like I should be a little bit tired. I sleep better. Definitely. Nice. Yeah. But yeah, I, that's, like that Sabbath principle I think you're communicating to is you.

When you begin your Sabbath, then those next three days you're operating from rest. Yeah. And then the three days after that, you're operating in anticipation for the next rest. I have. Yes. So there's a joy it in all six days of the week. Absolutely. I always start thinking, okay, what am I gonna do in my next sab?

What do we got here? Yeah. It is, it's been, yeah it's helped me thrive, I think, a lot more too, just to be, able to spend that time with God as in, in such a more focused way than I think I've ever done. That's good. How has the practice of Sabbath changed your view of God if any yeah.

I remember you said your vision of God will shape your version of Sabbath, right? Yeah. And I never thought of God as a task master. But I was, that person always thought, maybe I disappointed you, God, and. Um, I was doing things to make up for that, and that Sabbath has definitely changed that perspective.

He, it I don't disappoint. He understands this heart is trying and it's working and it's not in the, but working towards, getting just be becoming closer to him and getting better at that relationship with him cuz that's never been my strong suit relationships with anybody. But it really changed my mindset of I'm not a disappointment to him.

Come on, I'm not doing that because he's disappointed in me. I'm doing that. Of my own flaws and wounds and failures. These are why I'm doing these. The way I'm doing them. God loves me. God wants me to thrive. He wants me to be, to feel loved, validated and needed, and He has given me all that through this time.

It's just I wish I could articulate it better. I really do. It is such a special time for me because I get to just focus on God, and it took a while to get. Took five years or four years, right? Yeah. Yeah. 2019 to 2023. But I, but getting there, it was the best thing I think I've done. Especially at this phase of life where, it's just me.

I was starting to feel like, what's next? What do I do? Where do I go? What's my purpose? And the biggest thing I think I found out recently is it's not necessarily a purpose, Lisa. You just need to be, you just need to be with me. Meaning him. Yeah. Presence. Yeah. That's so good. I think that's such a word, like what you just said too.

We could unpack for hours, but I'm sorry I No that was wonderful. Like our vision of God's love for us, we're bringing in our own wounds and failures. You had said yes. And so Sabbath is such a great opportunity just to lay that at the feet of Jesus and go, you love me, no matter. And no matter what.

And in fact, you were wounded for my wounds, so I just love that. I think that's a great, we we don't recognize how much our wounds contribute to our life. You're right. And so we like to say our wo our woundedness and wickedness keeps us from full deliverance.

And I think growing up in a church context, my assumption is always wickedness. But we also have, by the power of the Holy Spirit, a regenerated heart. So sometimes the things we're. At the core is not wicked. It's from a wound. It's from a wicked. And so now we are wounding others. Yes. This doesn't excuse sin in any sense, but I think it is helpful to pinpoint why am I doing what I'm doing?

Yeah. And Sabbath is a bomb to the soul. It is. And it. It helps heal those wounds. I think I really feel like it does if you spend that time focused. And even if it, I mean I obviously, some of my Sabbath time is always spent in prayer and scripture and just finding that time to, like you said, later his feet and say, can you heal this for me?

Because it's still there. I can't believe all these years later it's still there, but. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm now reading fiction on Sabbath. Ooh. I'm trying and it's really been hard for me. Very hard. And so do you relate to that too? I know there's someone at church that says they hate fiction. Do you like fiction though?

I do like fiction. Okay. It was the non-fiction. You're the one that got me done. The nonfic. Got it. Should I struggle with that? So I'm reading a book called glittering Image. And I actually was in tears yesterday. Yeah. On my Sabbath, reading a fiction book. I'm like, who am I? But it was about the wounds.

It's actually about this this pastor, who is I say pastor. He's it's Anglican Church. So it's all those different titles. Yeah. Early 19 hundreds in England. So it's fun setting, historical. Historical fiction. Yes. I love that. But then it's all about this archbishop who feels threatened by this other guy.

So he sends his scholar theologian to go figure out if there's any dirt. Oh, so there's so much. It's wonderful, right? It's suspense. But what's fun about it is you think this whole time, this guy's the bad guy. The guy, they're interrogating. But it actually opens up the wounds of the investigator. Wow. And then all of a sudden he's I'm the problem.

And so it starts to just dive into, yeah. Like the idolatry every pastor has of putting on a front and being loved by their performance or how successful they are and Wow. All this stuff. And like then it was just torn apart. I'm just like, this is such a good, and I'm like, it's all biblical stuff, but in the form of a.

And just my soul needed that. Just a different version versus here's the facts, now here's how it plays out. If you don't address your wounds Yes. In 30 years here's what could happen. This is what it looks like. I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, exactly. It really does though. But you, if if I had done this younger, and that's one of the things that I thought about recently too.

I and I don't live in regrets or anything like that, but I do wish. 20 years ago, 30 years ago, I had started practicing this because I think I would've been my wounds and just my life would have been. So much easier, than I allowed it to be because his yoke is easy and for life.

It's just, I just, I, so I think, I often think of all the young families we have at Passion Creek and I'm like, go for it. People do it. Cuz if you're doing it now, when you're hitting my stage of life, oh you're good. You're, it's just gonna be that much more delightful to have Sabbath when you've even, it's just a, yeah, that's such a good word, because, the natural inc inclination with our people, our younger people are like, I'll do this when I'm retired.

I'll do this when I'm in my don't fifties, sixties. And it's like, no. Every so many things in the Christian faith today is the day, today is the day of salvation. And that can mean actual salvation. But salvation also has that salve, the healing Yeah. Element to it.

And it's like today's the day for healing. You don't need to put off. Change your mind, change your ways today. Me, NOA, repent today. And there's so much on offer. One of the biggest lies of the enemy is, yeah, that's right. Just don't do it yet. Yeah. Yes. Oh Lord. He had that one in my ear for many years. Yeah.

And then when you do it, oh, this is right. But you're doing it wrong. Yeah, that's another lie. Yes. That's another one. Absolutely. Yes. And that's probably where I. What am I hate to say how old I was. Let's just, I don't hate to say it. Let's see. Probably in my early walk, which was about, it's been about 20 years now.

Yeah. You're doing it right. You're doing it, but you're doing it wrong. And then there's that. Then I'm just gonna give up. I'm, if I'm can't do it right, then I'm gonna give up. It is a struggle for many years. Yeah. Yeah. It's just the lie of the enemy. So he's last question. Okay. This has been wonderful.

What tips, encouragement, advice would you give someone who's interested in Sabbath but hasn't even begun practicing it yet? Wow. So I would definitely say don't, again, back to the expectations, right? If you're putting in your head, I've gotta do this, I have to do this for say, 24 hours.

If you don't hit the 24 hours, that's okay. Maybe plan for 12 hours. Let's start small foundational. I'm a baby stepper. That's how I teach folks. Let's take this first baby step. If it's a 12 hour Sabbath, let it be 12 hours. That's that training idea of Yeah. App apprenticeship to Jesus is helpful to me.

Hey, it's a marathon. Yes. But tomorrow just get off the couch. Do not, yeah. And then do not. Like you end your, say you do the 24 hours and you end that 24 hours, don't expect immediately the whole world's going to look and be different, right? God does take time to form us, to shape us, to make these things work in our lives.

So time is important. So in my brain it always goes back to expectations. Don't set them so high. Give yourself grace, give I, I know when we first started in two 19, I really did start with a 12 hour one. It. I just didn't feel like I needed 24 hours, but I would try and don't give up.

Just don't give up just do not let anything stop you if it didn't work out this week. Okay, let's try again. There's a new whiteboard over there that you can erase and write on again and say, we're gonna start over again. And a plan, I've, like I've said, a. With flexibility, but plan, have something in your head that this is what we're gonna do for Sabbath.

Kinda like some guardrails. Yeah. Like we have a lot of room to play. Yes. But here's a few things. Yeah. Know what you can't do. Yeah. Know what you can't do. Like I said, housework don't if you can avoid all that stuff do, but just know what you can't do. What's gonna take you away from that. And that's, That's about all I got cuz it's just me.

So it's easy for me to do all those things. Yeah, no, I love that. I think also, just one more thought I had just on that thought. Do it even though there isn't a reward. What Christ is trying to do within us is to change our narrative of what is the purpose of life? The meaning of life. And I think a meaning of life that many of us as Americans adopt is to maximize pleasure and minimize pain.

And in many ways, Sabbath is perfect cuz it's oh, you're telling me about a life where I can maximize pleasure and minimize. So I think when we think that's the whole purpose, then if we do a few sabbaths down the road and my pleasure hasn't increased. Yeah, my pain hasn't decreased, I'm out.

And it's no, the purpose is actually holiness. Transforming into his image. Yes. Changing your character or living a life of gratitude and delight in God. There's so many other purposes. There are. There may be a lot of pleasure down the road. I think there really is, but not when it's the main.

Yeah, I think the pleasure comes from the delight. Like when you start Sabbath thing and you make that a habit, that delight then becomes habitual. I feel like, I know it's the simple things. I take the dog out at six o'clock in the morning, hear the birds sing these days. I'm like, oh wow.

That's really good. Yeah. It's the tiniest little things that have captured me recently, and it's because I've taken the time. Previously to delight in all that and and now it's just, it's a muscle, right? Yeah. Yeah. And when you don't do it, so we did day inu. We've been doing day inu at dinner, right?

Especially with friends over, we go, okay, like we're all, we just had dinner together. Let's now do day inu, which is it would've been enough if, we just had this, but God outdid himself and now we also have that. And people always are be like, this is so weird. This is so hard. I thought I was a grateful person.

I can't think of anything. And I'm like, that's okay. You've never done this before. What do you expect? It's like walking for the first time. You're not gonna start running right. And so good. This means you need it. And it means you need repetition. Don't judge yourself yet. Just keep going and going. And you'll be surprised in a year from now how creative you can get with day inu.

Yeah, and I'm not the most self-disciplined person in the world either, so take my example and, know that it will get there, but you just gotta keep at it. You do may have to incorporate some self-discipline into your life. And that's what I've had to do. Which has been a bit of a struggle, but it, in the end, it was worth every bit of that struggle oh, it's.

I wish I had better words sometimes to articulate what it has done in my life. Cuz it's been an amazing few weeks, a couple months now, right? Yeah. That we've been doing it. It's, yeah, it's been, he even lost track of time. It feels like I've been doing it forever. I love it. No, I really think the spirit of God is, Totally using your words, so don't feel like they're falling short.

I know my affections are stirred for the Lord and I'm excited to Sabbath, which is in six days. Hurry up, let's get back to the Sabbath. So anyways, thank you so much for joining. Anytime. Hope you're willing to come back again. You have to drive pretty far. Yeah. But to do this dog goes right up the road.

Oh good. It makes it worth the trip win. Good. Awesome. Grace and peace to you and thank you for everybody who's been listening. Yes. We hope that you guys are encouraged and yeah, this has great fun combo. Yeah. Fun convo. 

 We are back for another interview episode talking about Sabbath. And so thank you guys for tuning in. We are trying to do, uh, we're trying to interview as many people from our church as possible, uh, to talk about the, the best practices. Kind of we're all stumbling through this cuz it's so foreign to so many of us.

So today we. Caden Shaley. Hello. Hi. Welcome. Thank you. Hold on, let me do a, uh, clapping. Hold on. You won't hear it, but.

Thank you. Thank you. First time ever you get a clap feature. That's awesome. Yes. I'm glad. I'm glad we could have that. You're tol, you're totally just trusting me here. It could have been a boo track. It could have been. Because you don't have headphones on. No, no. But it's not a boo track. Although I want to add that in my repertoire just in case.

Uh, so introduce yourselves to those who don't know you. Okay. Who are you? Well, I'm Cade. Um, I don't know what kind of introduction you want me to give. I work for the Safety Team and also children Ministry for Passion Creek. Um, and I am the brother-in-law of our Pastor Trey Band Camp. That's me. Yeah. All right.

Um, I am Shaylee Wiles. Um, I also help with kids, ma Moley Lonely. Mossy. Mm. Mostly, mostly kids. Um, and I am sister of Trevan Camp's, wife Jordan. Yeah. Which makes us related again, right? Yeah. Even more so. Even more so we're related by marriage. Yes. I know. My wife said that we made it so weird on Sunday. You did?

You did. I did because I said that you, I said what you said, which we are related by marriage. You said not to each other. Yeah, it was a fun joke. It was. Everybody laughed. It was everybody laugh. Yeah. Probably shouldn't have been included, so, okay. So we can go on that forever. But, uh, we appreciate you guys.

We love that you're a part of our family. Mm-hmm. Literally and, uh, spiritually. Right. Um, and so I'm excited, uh, just to hear about both of your guys' backgrounds. So feel free to kind of go back and forth on some of these questions. Um, cuz I actually, I, I'd like to say that probably you have more. Sabbath ish background.

Mm-hmm. Right. Uh, and Shaylee, you don't Yeah. And I only know that cuz you know, I know your sister. Yeah. So I know that they didn't, you guys didn't grow up with like a Sabbath kind of thing, so Yeah. What was your life like before practicing Sabbath? Let's start with you Shaylee. Okay. Um, so I work at a, a job that's very emotionally draining and very quickly you can get burnt out.

Um, just, just the kind of work that I, that I do, it can get really tough sometimes. Um, and so it would come Monday and I would be like, Ugh, I gotta go to work again. I gotta deal with, you know, these situations. And so before Sabbath, like I felt like we were so busy, we were constantly doubling up our weekends.

Mm. And, and I really feel like I, it was, it was a struggle. Mm-hmm. I, I, same thing for me, uh, when it came to Monday, I would always feel like, you know, that just dread of like the work week. Uh, and that's just because kinda like Shaylee mentioned that Saturday and Sunday was our catch up days because we just.

Had a nine to five and then we have to go to sleep. Well, technically she has a four to five. I have to go to sleep. You know, I get up at four 30. Yeah. So we, we would always just try to just cram everything into a Saturday, Sunday, and we never really had time except for church, for God. Mm-hmm. And we also went to two, two church services.

So like back to back, being away from the house all day Sunday. Was what we were doing for a while. Right. Yeah. And, and I, I hated to say this, but I always said that I have Saturday off because Sunday we were just so busy. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Like, uh, especially serving in the church, it's just, it kind of got to a point with us to where it didn't feel like serving as much as it did work, if that makes sense.

Because we were serving in both churches, so twice a month. Mm-hmm. And it, it was a lot. It was a lot. Yeah. And you also, And then we've been talking about this with the other people in our groups where you kind of think you can get to the point where, okay, church is asking a lot, but really it's because the rest of your schedule is so cattywampus and so busy that then it looks like that's the thing that's draining.

Although I think like going too, like that's, that is draining, right? Yeah. There is something to that, right? Where like, oh, what we're doing Monday through Saturday is why we're so exhausted and overwhelmed. Mm-hmm. Before we even begin Sunday. Um, so like when you first heard that we're gonna practice. Did you feel any resistance?

What was that resistance like? So, yeah, like in my background when I grew up, we, uh, I grew up in a, the LDS faith or the Mormon church as some people know it as, and we would practice a Sabbath. Um, but I guess what, where it differs is I was younger. Um, so whereas. My parents could do it differently than how I remember it as a kid.

Um, I do remember my mom trying to get us to do kind of God time with her, where, you know, after dinner we would sit down, try to read the scriptures, but just with, uh, not only me, my brother and my sister, but also after. The divorce and the remarriage of my mom and my stepdad, um, and us having so many other siblings, we could, all seven of us could not sit in one room together, uh, because of conflict, because of just us moving around all too much.

Um, so, you know, we just kind of fizzled out of that. And then also throughout high school, we would never be home. So it was one of those things where I was like, had that, you know, bad taste in my mouth from just growing up, but at the same. I never did it. So I was kind of open to trying my own type of Sabbath.

Mm-hmm. Um, and just trying to figure out what is Sabbath to me. So did you know that Sabbath was like a Christian Church practice or did you kind of assume that's more of the lds? So, I mean, obviously it, it's a commandment to keep the Sabbath holy. Mm-hmm. Or to remember the Sabbath. Um, so good job. Thank you.

Remember, thank you. Yeah. So, so. I knew it was a commandment, so I knew it was a pretty much like everything, but it, it was more, um, it was more talked about within the, the Mormon church than I've ever heard. Hmm. You know, so, so when I had joined Passion Creek and I started to walk in the Christian life, um, and then it was kind of mentioned I was, it kind of took me by surprise, like, oh, okay, we do it here too.

That's, yeah. That's cool. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Yeah. I think for me, My family didn't, didn't do Sabbath at all. We didn't touch that. What I knew about Sabbath was that, um, a couple friends of mine in high school that were Mormon, they couldn't hang out on Sundays because they had to do Sabbath. So all that I knew about Sabbath was, oh, they can't go out, they can't do anything.

They can't hang out with friends. Um, but when you had started talking about it, I was really. Because honestly, this is kind of bad me to say, but I didn't realize it was a commandment. I really didn't. Cuz I heard Sabbath and I was like, yeah, whatever, whatever. What's that? And just kind of ignored it. But when you were saying how you guys were practicing Sabbath, even before you did this series, I was like, man, that would be really cool, but I don't know what to do.

I had no idea how. Or what, you know, what steps to take. That's good. Yeah. I think also Sabbath seems to be the, an idea everyone loves. Mm-hmm. But it's a practice that's really hard to do. Mm-hmm. Still, yeah. It's like, yeah, I wanna do that. But then it's, you gotta change your life mm-hmm. To really get it into the rhythm.

Um, what did your perception, and I love that by the way, Shaley so many forget that it's a commandment. Yeah. And that's the irony cuz it's the one commandment that says remember. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cause he knew that we'd forget. Um, do as. You know, when we went through that for those four weeks, how did your perception of Sabbath kind of slowly change?

What were some of the, like the gold nuggets for you of, oh, this is how we can begin to do it. Or here's, I thought it meant this thing, like legalistic or something and maybe it's something different. Talk to me about that. Um, so like, going through those four weeks and everything, I, I definitely learned a lot more about Sabbath than in, uh, the LDS faith, you know, cuz again, it's mentioned and it's talked about like, hey, you know, let's.

Sunday, it's Sabbath day. Um, we can't really like break the Sabbath, but I guess I never really understood what that meant, you know? So, uh, going through those four weeks, I got a good understanding of what it actually meant, um, and just kind of helped, helped me like, okay, when you do Sabbath, that doesn't necessarily mean.

Sit on the couch and do nothing all day. You know, it, it, it's a refreshing day. You know, like, like for us, uh, I'm pretty sure this is a question to ask us, but, you know, we go to the store, we refresh for the week. We, we do what we need to do, so that way our week looks great. Um, which we do that after church.

Uh, and then basically we have a good four to five hours to one, do nothing. Uh, and then. Like we take an hour or like 30 minutes to 45 minutes to pray together, to read scripture, to actually put God time in. Um, because when, when you do rest physically, that's great. However, physical rest will never actually be rest unless you put God into it.

Mm-hmm. Can you ask me the question one more time? That's a word. Yeah, yeah. Um, no. Yeah. What were some of the things that you began to learn, you know, so maybe some of that resistance you felt before and what were some of the key Oh, this helped me begin to, to to practice Sabbath, kind of those unlocks for you.

So I think, um, you know, as my, my previous, what I had known of Sabbath was only stopping. That's what it meant. And, um, you know, when you really got to the part, It's not just about stopping, it's about putting Jesus in there and finding rest from him. That, that was honestly probably like the eye-opening.

Oh, I get it now. Um, it's really putting him in the center. Otherwise it doesn't, it doesn't really help. All that much. Yeah. To use the phrase of Eugene Peterson, it becomes a bastard Sabbath where it's like illegitimate, right? Yeah. Um, it feels weird saying that word, but Yeah. I was a little shocked to said that, and Jordan was like, why did you say that?

You know? But in different context, you know, I, I was, yeah. It's the right context. Yes. Um, so when you guys first started mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. To Sabbath, what were some of like the frustrations, the failures you experienced? Because none. Prac do it perfectly ever. Mm-hmm. Like even, you know, I've been doing it for a few years now and even like a couple weeks ago I was like, that might have been my worst Sabbath ever.

You know? Like I just did not do it well. Yeah. So what were some of the things that had been frustrating thing, rhythms that you've been trying to learn and It's just been hard. I'll say one. I'll say one first. I think it was the first Sabbath that we did and we had just like finished eating dinner and I was like, oh, well there's a couple dishes so I'm just gonna put them away.

And Cade was like, that's not Sabbath. And I was. You're right. Mm-hmm. You're right. We clean, we clean throughout the week. So it's like you just load it into the dishwasher and then you don't have to. Yeah. Um, but I didn't do that the first one cuz I didn't realize like, we gotta prepare for Sabbath on Sunday.

The home stuff is what I hear the most. Just laundry, well married couple dishes, all that stuff is constantly a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, which we actually found a way to put laundry into kind of a god time. Yeah. Um, We watched the chosen, which cool. Highly recommended. Mm-hmm. Uh, and we'll fold clothes we'll while watching that.

So it kind of adds to that, you know, God time. But yeah, we were saying that like if you can like gamify it or do something where it's a joy, Um, like what I'm doing, we, I'm meal prepping during Sabbath now where I'm grilling chicken for the week. Nice. But like, I love it, like I love the smell. Mm-hmm. And I have worship music on, so it's like, yeah.

It's a hack, you know? It's like, yeah. This is a joyful thing. I can really both enjoying, I'm finding joy in the Lord. Yeah. Um, but like, I'm willing if God was like, don't do this. Like, okay, I won't do it anymore, but it's not, you know, like mm-hmm. It's usually the thing that's like, no, I, I can't stop doing it.

That's the thing. You should probably stop. Right. But if I'm like, no, it's a joyful thing. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah. Um, what are some other failures? Like even mentally, like has it been hard? Um, has it been hard to, to declare, okay, this was a good one. You know, like, we had a good Sabbath. Have you struggled with some of that?

No. I mean, like, like our, um, Let's see. I'm trying to think like our third Sabbath, I would say like this, what? This last one was our third. No, this was like fourth or fifth. Oh, well, our third, fourth, and fifth. I would say we're pretty good, you know, because we, we really did stop, you know, we did our, our what we call our Sunday schedule, where we go to church.

Go to church, go to the store, get home, have those few hours just to kind of relax and do nothing. Watch a TV show, play some video games. Um, and then we do dinner together. Mm-hmm. And that's dinner's really where we do our big Jesus time. We read, yeah. We are praying, we're asking each other like, faith, faith, growing questions.

Yeah. Have you been able yet to include other people in it? Like have you had some people over or We, we did it with his family kind. Um, but it was more like, obviously cuz they, they believe a little bit differently than us, so like yeah. It wasn't exactly the same. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and I think another thing we talked about was that we, we normally are host mm-hmm.

To things like we have friends over for game nights and things of that nature. So we kind of also said that even though yes, having people over for Sabbath is, is great and we can do some of our Sabbath practices with them. Um, we also kind of agreed that maybe. Us not hosting on Sabbath is also a better idea because we do we'll like do com community, is that the right word?

Like stuff with them on like either a Monday or a Saturday. Mm-hmm. At least once a week we'll have a group of friends over and do dinner and, and you guys do, church is a part of your Sabbath, so like Right. We've had community and the audience Yeah, exactly. And all that. Yeah. Totally. That's great. Yeah. Um, and I think it's so health healthy to know each season has something different.

Right now, you know, Hey, we're gonna go to other people's place, or we're gonna hope Yeah. That's, that's awesome. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Were you gonna say something? Yeah, because you, you were asking about failures, so I feel like, um, I should put this one out, that I feel like the first and maybe the second time, we really didn't, we didn't have a Jesus time schedule where we really worked that in there.

And so I feel like, like it was cool to stop, but I was like, yeah, I don't know about this. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? I was like, yeah, it's, it's okay. I just feel like we're doing nothing but watching tv. And then we slowly started to. Be very particular about what we watch, and that's when it started to get better.

And then we started to adding the Jesus time during dinner and no tv, nothing else on. Yeah. And that started to improve and that's part of our fault because we were like, Hey, we're just trying to get people to stop first. Yeah. Anything else like step one, week one, Hey, don't do anything. Yeah. First, the two first two weeks were.

To take away. Mm-hmm. Right. And then the next two were like, okay, now yeah, let's add, let's add. See. But I, I think that that was super great. I think that was super smart to do because kind of like how I realized, I feel like I wasn't the only person that realized that. Like, you can rest, but you'll like, like I said, you'll never feel that unless you actually put God in it.

Yeah. So it was like super, super smart to do. Nice to tell people to stop and then incorporate God. It's like people, they'll never stop. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So let's, let's talk about that. So the four steps, do you remember them? What are the four words? Oh, geez. I didn't know I was gonna be quiz today. The first one.

Stop. Stop. Stop.

I'm quitting my job. I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Rest. Okay. Good job. Okay. Stop job rest. To be fair, we didn't actually see the third one. Okay. So yeah, worship. Okay. Fourth? No, worship's the fourth. That's the fourth one. But was I knew three. Yeah. Delight. Delight. Delight. Yeah. Yeah. We missed that. We missed one delight in, uh, you can go back to the podcast, by the way.

And for those who missed it, go to Pastor Creek Church YouTube. Yeah. So delight in ourselves and others in creation and in God, right? Mm-hmm. So that's like a lot of different delight practices. Um, what has come easiest to you? And then what's come hardest out of the stop? Rest delight. Worship paradigm.

Easiest is worship. That's, you know, we, we already throughout the week listened to worship music. Um, I feel like it increased though when we started doing Sabbath. Cuz not only did we make Sundays a complete worship day, like we don't listen to anything else except for, you know, Christian worship. That.

Then on our off days, on our normal work days, we started listening to more Christian music as well. Yeah, like, like I find myself within the work week, um, usually going between my two playlists, which are, well, my two favorite playlists, which is country music. Which I know you don't like as much and, and, and worship music.

My wife is making me like it, enjoying it more and more, but I don't want to admit that. Right. Yeah. Worship is also like so many other things other than music, right? Mm-hmm. And like, I love that you guys are like reading scripture. That's a form of worship, praying. Mm-hmm. There's so much there. Um, which one is the, the hardest?

I would say, I would say scripture. To me it was, it's always hardest to do scripture. And, and that's, it wasn't one of the four. Oh, I'm sorry. No, that counts within worship, so. Oh, okay. Does it? Yeah. Yeah. So worship has been easiest, but also worship has been hardest, I guess we could say. Okay. You know, because reading, reading scripture for me has always been hard.

I, like, I'm trying to, he's not a reader. I'm not, and I'm actually doing like the Bible and ear challenge, but I'm listening to somebody read it, if that makes sense. So like I, I kind of found a way out of the reading part. So our next, you know, we're doing these formed. Teachings. Mm-hmm. Right. The next one, which will come in May, is formed by scripture.

Mm-hmm. So hopefully they can empower you some more. Yeah. Hopefully help you, but be encouraged. Yeah. For the first 1500 years of the church's existence, the primary mode of what people would hear would, would, intake scripture, would be through listening. Mm-hmm. So it was not written for the common language, like later on, cuz they made it to Latin Vulgate.

I can go into weird history here. Mm-hmm. But you'd have to go to the church and hear the priest. Right. Read it. Mm-hmm. So, which the invention of the printing press was huge. So now we all have a Bible in our hands. Right. And now online we have it on our phones. Mm-hmm. So we now primarily consume it with reading.

Mm-hmm. But the other thing that's different is it used to be the primary mode of listening to scripture was in community. You would all get. And kind of process it in community. Now we view it as such a isolated event. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's just me and, and me and God. Yeah. So it's really interesting that in many ways we need to find more ways to get back to reading and community.

So it's really cool that you guys do that together too. Yeah. That's really helpful. Yeah, we, we, we found out that, um, like we do it a little differently, you know, where We'll, we will. First we'll pray and we'll just ask God to convict us of something through the scripture. Mm-hmm. Like show us something that we need to see to work on throughout the week.

Yeah, that's good. Or just something you need us to see. We'll flip through, stop, pick a passage and just so that way we don't like get it out of context. We'll read the entire passage and have that like, Conviction conversation of, okay, what do you think God's trying to tell us in this? Mm-hmm. And, um, it's, yeah, like, what does it mean for our lives, kind of thing.

Yeah. So what's been the hardest for you? I don't know, because like for me it's to stop. Like just that first part. It's like, oh, I wanna keep, I wanna get this done. I wanna get that done. I guess it would be that, because like if I don't, like I hadn't prepped the first time we did it. Like I hadn't done the things on Saturday that I wanted to get.

And then on Sunday, like the house is a mess. You got dirty dishes and dirty clothes. Like that's hard for me to stop because I wanna be prepared for Monday. Yeah. But I also wanna get that spiritual rest. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's very tough. Mm-hmm. Um, how has your view of God been shaped or changed in light of practicing Sabbath?

I definitely feel like he talks to. For sure. Mm-hmm. Uh, I definitely, I definitely feel like throughout my week, um, I've, I've seen God's hand more, you know, in doing this. And, um, you know, just in, in just regular things, you know, where it, where it's, uh, like one Sunday, um, we went to Walmart and there was just this lady that couldn't find her car.

Mm-hmm. And you. We, we helped her do it. It took, you know, maybe 20 minutes to do. Yeah. But it was just one of those things where it's like, you know, God has been putting more and more conversations and more and more things to show Christlike love. Yeah, that's great. Throughout the week in my job and just every day.

So that's so good for multiple, multiple ways. Like Sabbath does change our relationship with time. Mm-hmm. Right. We're able to be interrupted more. We're we recognize, I don't have to rush. I don't. Okay. You're, you're, you have awareness of what God is telling you, what God is doing around you. All that happens by, you know, once a week really focusing just on him.

Mm-hmm. It gives you that muscle. To notice that down the road. And then you're also realizing, oh, I'm not in a hurry. Mm-hmm. As much as I thought I needed to. Um, and I love how you're pointing out that Sabbath has changed your, your week, not just your day. Yeah. You know, not just that Sabbath day. It really does begin to change everything.

And you're, you know, just a few, you know, six or seven weeks in, so, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. See what, what comes, um, what about you? Can you ask me the question one more? What has, uh, ha has Sabbath changed or shaped your view of God in like a different. Mm. That's an interesting question. Okay. Because, um, we do our Bible time kind of separately, or at least we did do right before we started implementing it in on Sundays.

Together wise, we didn't really, well, we prayed together, but not that much. I would say, you know, it was like a simple dinner prayer before we ate. Um, but since we started really focusing on that on Sabbath, I feel like I've seen God. Like us closer together. I feel like it's been really uniting, um, for us to be closer to him as well as each other because, you know, like the married couple, like bickering back and forth about little things here and there, uh, that, that used to be, they used to happen a lot.

And I feel like since we started doing the Sabbath and since we started putting God in the middle of not just like our week, but us. I feel like he's just shown up and just kind of like improved that Yes. Where we don't, don't have those little tiny arguments because you know, it's not, it doesn't matter.

Yeah. And I mean, you were there, you officiated the wedding, but we, when we did the three strand mm-hmm. Um, ceremony, like, you know, that was us kind of saying like, we were gonna have like three people in this relationship. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Us and God, and. Even though we ourselves had a relationship with God, we didn't really start implementing that promise that we made until we actually started practicing Sabbath together and mixing our God time in with each other's God time.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, that's wonderful. And that's, I feel like that's really how God's shown up mm-hmm. In our relationship is really what I've noticed. Yeah, that's good. That's really good. Mm-hmm. Um, so much of that is just intentionality, right? Mm-hmm. Right. It's just, let's do this and it's just amazing what God does with an intentional schedule.

Mm-hmm. I like to say often that God, um, God doesn't necessarily use the person with the greatest intentions. He uses the person who's most intentional, right? Yeah. We all have great intentions. Hell is paved with good intentions, right? Right. But us actually being intentional and doing those things creates that space for, for grace.

Um, so that's really good. Um, I do wanna encourage people as they're listening, like, I think what happens so often is so great, like when you start a new practice, Like, I love hearing your guys' story cuz it's like a honeymoon stage. Mm-hmm. It's just like, yeah. There's just so much joy and it's a lot of fun.

And so I love that part. Like when I started in 2018, like for the first six months I was just on cloud nine. I was like, this is the greatest thing ever. Every week it's better. I love my wife more, I love my children more. I love God more. Um, but then like me and Caleb talk, like to talk about the J curve.

Mm-hmm. So what happens is like you get progress. This is good because God is entrusting you with maturity. It begins to get hard. Right? It begins to, but that's the process of growth cuz then it shoots up again. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, so even so far, like are you noticing some things of like, oh, this is. This is gonna be difficult for us to keep doing or, you know, or, or, or is it just pure honeymoon stage?

You're loving it? Like, I feel like it'll get harder definitely when like, we start to have kids and that'll take, like, different seasons are going to have to change and it's gonna look way different. But yeah, I mean, as of right now running, it's so great. You're making it, uh, foundational so that when you have kids, you already have that muscle.

They're gonna learn with you. Right. You'll find, I know like the baby, baby stage, that's a whole nother world. But like the, our kids love Sabbath. Yeah. They can wait for Sabbath. It's so special to them too. Which is why I feel like, like him as a kid, he didn't love Sabbath. Mm-hmm. And so like, I'm really excited, you know, for when we are in that stage and doing things with our kids to, you know.

Yeah. And it's definitely one of those things too, like as, as head of the household with one of my responsibilities is even if for some reason our. Kids are kind of like, ah, you know, I don't really wanna sit here and listen to scripture. I'm, I wanna make it a thing to where at least we will do it, you know?

Mm-hmm. Because, you know, even if we can't rope our kids in now, if they keep seeing like, you know, oh, mom and dad are doing it. Mm-hmm. Oh, their relationship is great because they're doing it, then it'll sound a good foundation for them when they get married. You know, thinking way in the future though. But like the, you know, at least then they'll be like, oh, My dad and my mom did this, I want to do this.

Yeah. And there's mm-hmm. There's a real truth behind, um, you know, like if, if you, so, like so many parents had talked about, like, kids were like, yeah, I was forced to go to church. That's typically because their parents didn't like church either. They're forcing themselves to go. Right. So it's, it's so great that typically if you love it, your kids will love it.

Right. And so really it's. There is certain things that me and my wife do that we're just not expecting of the kids. But there are baseline foundational things like mm-hmm. Yeah, we're teaching you, this is a way to live. This is the way to life. We're not gonna have the TV on at this time, and we're not, you know, so you just really continue to invite them.

But also there are some rules, but you don't have kids yet, so we're not gonna, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're good. Um, so what are some like tips, encouragement, advice you would give to somebody who's maybe interested in Sabbath has never done it before? More God time, for sure. Mm-hmm. Like, Because it like this point was so important to me and, and I, I will press it and keep pressing it and I've said it at church.

I'm saying it on this podcast like for the third time now, but you can stop. It's possible to stop. I have had days in my week where I will get home early and I will have two hours before Shaylee comes home, where I just sit, watch tv, play video games, and that's. And you feel rest, but at the same time, I'm gonna be just as tired as I am if I work.

I feel like until five, I feel like you feel relaxed. Mm-hmm. You don't feel rested. Right. Exactly. Uh, and until, and, and again with Sunday, right before we, we talked about worship and stuff like that, when it came to Sabbath, it was just us stopping watching tv wa you know, playing video games and, and things of that nature and.

Like, it was great and I felt relaxed like Shaley said, but you know, until we actually did implement God time where we, we actually prayed about our week instead of just over dinner and until we started reading scripture, asking God to convict us of things and to work on things, um, like you never really felt that rest.

And I, I guess I would like try to say, like, the advice I would give is, you know, if you have those couple minutes, At dinnertime. Just when you're sitting there with either your partner or even if you're alone just sitting there and you're ki trying to think of something to do with your time, open up the Bible.

Mm-hmm. Or, or get on your knees and have a conversation with, you know, your father in heaven because that, that right there, that is where you're actually going to feel your rest, you know? Yeah. And I think the biggest thing, what I try to do too, um, shout out to you for saying, convict me what I do on Sabbath, cuz I.

You know, this is day not to stress, not to worry. So I just, I, I read the passages about Thanksgiving. Like I, I think about God, here's why I'm grateful for you. Mm-hmm. Here's what I, mm-hmm. You look around God, thank you for this. God, thank you for that. You know, it's just such a sweet time. Like there are times to grieve before God.

There's times to say, God, I want this in my life. And it's not here yet, but Sabbath is a great way of saying God. All those things. Yes, you. There are desires in my heart, but more than I just want you, and I'm grateful for where I'm at. Mm-hmm. I'm grateful that, you know, hey, I'm not where I used to be.

Right. And it's just a wonderful time. See? Yeah. I love that. There's just em emphasizing God time. It's, I mean, it's the whole point, right? It's to honor the Lord. It's, it's, uh, it's his day, not ours. Um, but it, it, it does benefit us. I had a mentor that told me, um, in college, and it didn't make sense to me for a while.

But he said there's a huge difference between laziness and rest. Mm-hmm. So like TV binge watching is laziness. Right. But it's not the spiritual rest that we see in the scriptures. Mm-hmm. Now it's not evil in and of itself and in moderation. It's a wonderful thing. Right. But it's not the, the soul filling rest, and that's what you're saying?

Yes. Yeah. Any tips or encouragements from you? Um, my tip would be to prepare for Sabbath. So do the house stuff that you need to do, do the work stuff that you need to. And then when it's Sunday, then that, then it's not a worry. Or when, whenever you start your, you know, Sabbath, then it's not a worry. You don't have to stress about that and think about, okay, Monday morning, I gotta get that done.

Yeah. Cuz you've already done it. So as long as you're making time. Yeah. That's amazing. Well, thank you for coming. Yeah, of course. And you, Dr. You live far so you drove very far for this, so I appreciate that. Yeah. Grace and peace to you. Of course. You wanna shout out your YouTube channel? I was gonna, I I was gonna leave it out, you know, but.

Since you said something, uh, I got a YouTube, uh, co check us out at Geek Space. It's Geek underscore space. Uh, we review and talk about comic books, uh, live action adaptations of those comic books and Mario's coming out. So we're gonna review that here soon. Uh, so go, go give us a, a follow and subscribe there.

That's gonna be a great movie. I hope it's gonna be, it's gonna be really good. I hope it looks. Oh, Jack Black is gonna do amazing as we, we followed School of Rock again for the first time in years. I'm like, this is top five for me. I agreed with your story there. School of Rock. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing.

It's an an amazing, I was quoting the whole time, Jordan's like, will you stop in the handshake? Let's rock. Let's rock today. Yeah. No, there's couple of these. There's some movies you just have to quote the entire way through. Yeah. Stick it to the Manni. You guys have a great, uh, thank you. Make sure you light subscribe.

Grace and peace.

 We're looking at Sabbath as worship. We actually concluded the series. Few weeks ago now. But then Caleb and Shelby had a child. Oh yeah. So we delayed this part of the conversation.

I was trying to remember why we didn't do this right away. And that was totally it. It was cuz Abel was born like two days after that last sermon. Yes. And we're like, okay, now's not a great time to chat. How are you feeling? How is Abel good? Everything's good. Yeah. He's we left the newborn stage so recently with Eden, so our daughter is a year and a half, so it's not.

Far off from, I feel like we're just getting out of that. So a lot of that, we kinda remember the tips and tricks and we're just not sleeping for a while. But that's okay. Cause we know that it ends. We know that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. He'll be a toddler at some point and it's a whole other mess at that point.

It's weird to imagine my parents, cuz they had Shea when I was six, which is salla is not even six yet. Yeah. I'm just like, I can't imagine. Salek being the last child I had in diapers and then having to do it all over again. Yeah. Goodness. Oh yeah. So it's good. That's, Jordan was always, let's just get 'em done.

Yeah. We're used to that stage. Let's get through it. Praise the Lord. Thank that's awesome. So I want us to have this conversation though talk about Sabbath as worship. We actually introed this week about bastard s. It's the only time I ever cuss in my life, cuz it's not a cuss word I checked with 10 people.

Yeah. As long as it's the right context. Sure. So how about you read , the overview and we'll jump into it. Yeah. Yeah. So for the modern Mind, the Sabbath is typically associated with a day off work to attend church, get things done around the house, and binge on the latest TV show. While this offer, while this way may offer the illusion of rest, it is far from a holy day set apart for the Lord.

The Bible presents a different view of the Sabbath, which involves focusing our minds, hearts, and bodies on the adoration of God. It includes thinking of God throughout the day, turning our attention from worldly things to God, and loving and serving others without worship, the Sabbath can become a day of self-centeredness rather than a day to honor.

Rather than simply resting, worship transforms the Sabbath from a day off work to a day centered on God's character and nature. So the way that we organize this Sabbath practice is it was stop and then rest and then delight, and then worship. . And we were recognizing, but it's actually a really great thing to remember in the context of pastoring.

We're not giving them the whole picture. So I felt like this message was really helpful because I did feel, and that's okay because we're leading them that way in a sense. Oh man, like I, I'm worried some of our, some of us are missing almost the whole point. It like did become like self project self man, have you noticed that? Ha, have you felt that tension? Yes. I was worried that it was my wiring because I'm, I don't know if we wanna use engram language. I'm type one, so there's a, I can of nitpick when people are doing something that I think is wrong or right, or if people are just off base.

And my whole fear during the whole process was Sabbath is just gonna be. A day off work to do whatever you want, binge tv, catch up on chores, whatever. And then people are gonna be like, oh yeah, this is great. But I think and we had , we had talked about Sabbath being a little bit like Sabbath has to involve a little bit of resistance.

So I think you're, oddly enough you have to prepare for Sabbath that requires work and effort. But I think if you're doing Sabbath properly, there is. Resistance even when the Israelites did it. Like when God tells the Israelites to not gather manna on the Sabbath, like they can't help but go out and do it anyways.

So there's that part of us that like resists something about Sabbath. And I think without worship it's really hard to engage in the practice in a way that leads you to that point of resistance. And so worship to me was the. I wanted to make sure we communicated like this is what makes Sabbath and not just like a day off work or whatever.

And I was really encouraged, cuz yesterday in the timeline of our church, we had Cade actually share his story a little bit from the stage and we're actually gonna have him on the podcast later this week. And he had said that line explicitly like. , you can rest physically and all that and that's good, but if you don't put in worship, you haven't really reached like soul rest.

Yeah. I was like, oh good. Like it was just like a good affirmation. We didn't even have to tell him to say that. I didn't even make him say it. And I was literally like on Sunday Hey, say that again. Cuz that was like, that's the thing. Yeah. That I fear. And then it was, it is such a good reminder as pastors like so much of this, we're relying on the Holy Spirit and so we can only do so much.

But I, I. , I started to feel, ah, I'm responsible for us missing the picture. But then you realize God and his sovereign patience, he allows us to get just a piece of it.  And then there's so much in theology in life that we're only getting a small sliver of Yeah. And so it's okay that it took four weeks to get to this point.

Yeah. And I think maybe some of us, we never really participate in growth because it's all or nothing mentality. We gotta figure it all out right away or we don't. So I'm really glad that we did it that way, but that was a fear for me as well. Yeah, so that's why we opened up. Which you know, with using Eugene Peterson, he has in an article way back in the day about a Bastard Sabbath and he was essentially saying, Hey, if you just spent the last 24 hours resting, binging a TV show, going to church, and then shopping and this and that, it's like, Hey, that's okay.

It's Sabbath, but it's a bastard version. It's illegitimate. . Uh, And so that was a a wake up call for me as I was remembering. , it's been a wake up call for me when I first started Sabbath, way back when. And I think it's a really helpful wake up call for all of us. I think what we tried to talk about this week was like, okay, we're at the beginning, like the first half of our series, we were talking about resisting the Pharaoh.

And resisting the idle of productivity. And so I think that's why we started that way. Stop rest. It's, Hey, you don't have to be productive on this day. . And even that, I think we have. Confusion. Because for example, what I'm doing recently is memorizing on the Sabbath. , I'm memorizing scripture.

One could argue that's being productive. But it's a different kind of, so technically anything can be productive with a certain frame of reference. Or some things can be laborsome, right? Memorizing is not the easiest thing in the world, but I'm realizing taking steps into it, I do start to step into that freedom and true rest that Jesus has to offer.

So I'm trying to memorize a sermon on the mount. Yeah. And any word on that? Yeah, I think worship is the thing that worship is the thing that ties everything together because you can have, so it's that thing like and I. I don't know what, when you listed off those things that Eugene Peterson mentioned, like shopping and binge binging, stuff like that, it's really hard, I think without the framework of worship to differentiate, okay, what's the difference between me delighting, which was week two, three earth, week three, and then me like doing something that's unhelpful and unproductive and contrary to the spirit of Sabbath.

So I don't know, watching a TV show is really delightful for me. That's how I genuinely delight. Why am I being shamed for that or why, what's the difference? And I think without worship, that's, it's really hard to reconcile those two, or in your case like, this, I feel like I should do this, but it feels like work.

So what's the difference between memory memorizing scripture, that kind of work, versus studying for my sermon next week? That kind of work. And I think the key is worship. Is the reorientation of your of your entire being towards God through these different means. And so usually we think of worship, not necessarily in the biblical sense, which is just, it's an act that we do.

It's the way that we sing songs like that's, it's a genre of music and it's a thing that we do on Sundays, and that's certainly part of it. But Biblically worship is about redirecting your entire mind, your body, and your emotions, your heart. Back to God in praise and adoration. A living sacrifice. A living sacrifice.

Yeah. Romans 12, one. Or even I think the first time, I think the first time worship is used in the Bible, it's when Abraham is gonna go sacrifice Isaac. And it says that Abraham calls his son Isaac and says, come, let's go worship the Lord. But he really means sacrifice. And so it's this like that's the key difference is if I'm just binging a TV show mindlessly, then that's not really delighting.

But if I'm.  in a cheesy way, like watching this show with God, like that kind of thing. Yeah. Or if I'm like, memorizing this with God or watching a Hidden Life. Oh, it's so good. Have you seen it? No, I haven't yet. But that's in the works . I'm trying to make that happen. Yeah, it's good.

Yeah. Or a TV show or whatever. So like parents mal malle. Yeah. Did I get that right? Yeah. Look at you. I'm trying to learn your love language, man. That's good. , it's good. Like that kind of thing. Like things that like, is what I'm participating in just mindlessly enjoying? Or is it productivity for productivity's sake or is this in a way redirecting my heart, my mind, and my body towards God?

And I think for memorizing scripture for something like that for you, like that's a clear indicator that no, this is an act of worship. Yeah. So we had actually the practice for. . It's hard for us to remember, cuz this was like a month ago. I know I'm, but the practice for this was to make a dishonor and delight list.

Oh yeah. And so I think when there's things that delight and it also doesn't dishonor god or neighbor , that's your window. Yeah. And that's really an act of worship. So if you're delighting, but it's dishonoring God, it's no longer worship. If you're delighting and it's dishonoring your neighbor it's continuing oppression or whatever.

It's not really an act of worship. . Cause you're not honoring his creation. Yeah. So I think making a delight list a dishonor. Seeing. So like the questions we had is what is entertaining to me, but what would but would dishonor God. Yeah. And what is restful to me, but would dishonor my neighbor. Okay.

What is joyful to me and gives God glory, what is easy for me and blesses my neighbor. So we had talked about that a little bit. And this reality that dishonor and delight can't coincide. Like they, this true worship delight is different. So to bring it. We talked about the first two weeks was about being too productive on the Sabbath, but then I realized just in my own life, and then talking to our group, we were shifting into being too passive on the Sabbath.

Oh yeah. , so it's that middle line. It's not about being too productive. It's okay. The world will keep spinning without you. , the whole world is in his hands. It's almost like Sabbath. Sleep is a picture of a Sabbath too. God is the one working. He's sustaining your very breath. While you're just sleeping.

You have no idea what's going on. Don't worry about being productive, but being passive is that sense of laziness, of binge watching. I had a mentor in college, he told me this and it really stuck with me. It did. I didn't put it into practice, but it stuck with me. He said, Trey and pastoral ministry, and then life in general, you're gonna have to know the difference between laziness and rest.

, he says it's a world of a difference. And so passivity doing nothing on the Sabbath. I think where he also. We're running into this how do I put it, Caleb church on Sunday. Yeah. I think the way that sometimes that we had, I don't wanna, this conversation, I feel like, I'm like, man, we messed up this.

Not it at all. No, but I think this is a natural part. When you're walking into things, you're gonna counter resistance and lies and perceptions. And so our job in this podcast too is to go, Hey, we said this. Now we're realizing it has this perception. So I like how we have a second conversation, but some of us are saying and I think it doesn't help that we're the example and we say we don't Sabbath on Sundays because.

Church is work. Church is work to us. And I think people don't see how oh, I set up and you're pre, that's the same thing when really there's a, it's different. Sure. Yeah. And there's a spiritual significant difference and this, we're stepping into some stuff here. Yeah. But I have found almost none of our people are Sabbath on Sundays.

And it's one of two reasons. One, I tell them, Hey, I'm Friday. Sundown to Saturday sundown, which now I've changed to all Friday because of our schedule. So that's one. Hey, we'll just, you're doing it then we'll do that. Yeah. Which is cool. Sure. I think the other one though is that perception. I'm breaking a sweat because we're a church set up tear down.

So this can't be my Sabbath. Yeah. What are some of your thoughts on that? I I was run, I ran into that too, thinking through like, how. Because, we do set up on Saturdays and really it's about the attitude that you have going into it. Yes. So I think we have an obligation, you and I, and we've never talked about this and I've never vocalized this to you, but like, how can, is there a way for us to creatively make Saturdays feel less like a workday and more like a, some kind of communal act of worship?

I don't know. We can talk about that off. Even like low key like yesterday. . just played fun music while we were tearing down and Oh, yeah. It changed the vibe. That's just a small example. Yeah, totally. There's something we can do to help Hey, this is a moment. Yeah. This is, we're community here.

We're loving each other. Sure. That's what you're saying, right? Yeah. We could feel a little less like work and then I think even that perception changes, but again, it goes back to what we had said. If Sabbath is just about a day off, then you can take that and run with it in a way that just focuses on yourself and then you say no to things that are communal and that God really meant for you to do.

Participate in Sabbath. So we were really big on, we've talked about the Sabbath meal and how it's really important. Sabbath is always practiced within the context of community, but if your only indication for Sabbath is that it shouldn't involve work, then you can be like I don't want, that's work for me.

Social work, I'm an introvert, I don't wanna go to dinner, I don't wanna hang out with friends or do anything like that. Then you're missing the point of Sabbath altogether. So there, yeah, there has to be, again, it's the resistance there. Ha. You have to come up against something that says I know this is not.

This is good for me. This is, this honors God, this honors my neighbor and I know that I will enjoy this once I do it. Yes. So I just, there's enjoyment on the other side. Yes. It's a rebellion against the instant gratification kind of a thing. That's exactly it. I think that's a great point. So much of worship is the opposite of instant gratification.

Yeah. So actually, and I'm trying to practice too the Daily office. Yeah. So one way that I'm participating in the Daily Office is I have a reminder on my. Why are you smiling So big . This is good. So my reminder on my phone, but it's three different, as I was processing at the beginning of the year, what are the three things in my discipleship journey I need to lean into more.

. So the first thing at 9:00 AM is grace. . And so I recite what grace is. I apply it for my life. I apply it for the people around me. Sometimes it's just five minutes, but just recentering around grace. And then that noon is gratitude. . And so it's thanking people. Thanking God for people in my life, but also literally calling people saying, I'm just really grateful for you.

You're doing a great, or text or whatever. And then my last one in the evening is delayed gratification is the reminder. And it's so much of, and it applies for Sabbath too. It also applies during the week as I'm waiting for Sabbath. Hey, don't have that dessert that, because Sabbath is coming, but also in Sabbath, ultimately.

Okay, God, what I'm looking for, I can't over-indulge in here in this. earth I am looking forward to the feast to come. And so even on Sabbath, I am delaying my ultimate gratification. , right? I can't find it here on earth. And it's setting your sights on something that's transcendent. Yeah. That's good.

I, that's, I run into that every Sabbath where I want, I get. I make myself really anxious because I wanna make the most of the day it's like I have 24 hours, I can't waste it. We have this time, what are we gonna do? So we plan everything out and then it never, now we have two kids, both under two years old.

So it like never happens the way that I want it to . And then even when it does happen the way that I want it to, it's perfect. I'll have the perfect Sabbath and it's oh, that didn't scratch that. It didn't fully give me like what I wanted it to give me. And I feel this restlessness. And then at times, if I.

That's an invitation, I think, to worship. I think that's, God saying, that was great and I'm glad you had that day, but you like, this is just a taste cautions too. This is a taste of what's gonna happen. So it's that like I have the opportunity to redirect my mind and my heart and my body towards God in worship and say, I'm grateful for this moment.

I, but I'm acknowledging that it still leaves me hungry for more and that's gonna be, resolved one day in the future. But yeah, that restlessness. It's just this isn't fully like what I want it to be. Yeah. And ultimately Sabbath is for God. Yes. Yeah. Again, know, so it's shaped by the word Robert Mahoen, which I'm reading in prep for the new series on formed by scripture coming in May.

, . He says, though, true spiritual disciplines, you keep doing them even when you don't see a return. , because that's when you know, oh, this is actually for God. Like when we are formed by God, we are participating in it, even when we don't see the value of it. , it's because it's for his glory.

That actually brings, when we talked about on worship, we looked at Isaiah 58, and so the first 12 verses are all about how they misuse the fast.  and they thought they were doing all of it but they were dishonoring their neighbor. They were dishonoring God. That in Isaiah 29, right?

You honor me with your lips, but you Yeah. You ruin the sacrifice. We had said a line, a key line on Sunday, that Sunday way back when was God's people in this context were using spiritual disciplines for their own gain and not for God's glory. , and of all the disciplines, Sabbath seems to be the one where it's oh, I can see the benefits.

And I think as preachers we're supposed to show there are benefits. Yeah. But it's all of life right where we are here, Psalm 1 0 3 says, forget not his benefits. Yes. . We need to remember all the things that God and a, the kingdom life brings these little lowercase j Joys. . But the ultimate joy is what we have to keep our eyes on.

And so we had talked about like even Sabbath, it will actually make you more productive the other six days a week if you do it correctly. Even. , even if you're not religious, like taking a day off will help you. . It will improve your relationships because relationships need time, like having those communal mills.

It will actually help you feel better about yourself. And I have found, like if you have a, if you're in a season of where you don't have clarity in life, Sabbath has a way of resetting yourself and giving you a greater perception of where you're at, maybe what vocational change you need to make.

All sorts. There's a lot of benefits that even if you're not a Christian, , but a Holy Sabbath is something wholly different. And Ruth Haley Barton says, like all spiritual disciplines, Sabbath keeping is a means of.  a way of opening to the transforming work of God beyond anything we can accomplish for ourselves.

So it's opening ourselves up for God.  Saying, God, this is your day and I'm gonna thank you for all the ways that I can see. It's been helpful. , but I'm gonna do it and thank you anyways, on the ways and times and moments and seasons where I don't see it as helpful. , because it's your command and it's my privilege to obey.

I had a thought and then I just lost it. I just kept talking. No, that's good. Yeah. And then it gets to the whole the main thing with spiritual disciplines in general is that they're a means to grace, but it's not like they're not the end themselves. And I think that's one of the biggest temptations with Sabbath is, oh, this is the end.

but the end goal of Sabbath is like all of 'em to become, transformed in the image of God for the sake of others. And so if your Sabbath is void of worship and if it's not that offering to God, and I think that's the other reason that people are hesitant when to practice Sabbath is because they think, okay, it's a day for me to delight in what.

God has given me they rarely think of God as someone who wants us to delight. . And so if it's easier to worship God when you realize that I can have ice cream with my family and that's, that can be an act of worship because God rejoices when I rejoice. And so our worship is just an it can be more of a natural response to God.

Provision and blessing in our life because it reshapes our idea of who God is to us. And then through that, I think we experience the grace like never before. It's not grace because I'm a failure. It's grace because Jesus loves me and because God loves me and has given me the world for me to delight in so that I can ultimately learn to delight in him.

Two ways that we try to say often to help our people understand that these spiritual disciplines are not. , we say two things. One, it's not removal to get approval. , it's making space for God's grace. So say that all the time. It's not about approval. You already are approved. And the second way we say it is these disciplines like Sabbath.

It's not marking off tallies for God, it's marking out time with God. , I think a truncated version of that. It's not about religion, it's about relationship, which we both have problems with cuz it just, it leads you down. Paths that just don't make sense leads you down a path to say, why would I ever Sabbath that's telling me to do something.

I'm out. . So we, that's why we don't use that language. But those two things have been anchors for me in understanding. . And I even admit, like I had talked to my cousin the other day and I had said yeah I wanna know your perspective on this. I was like, Hey. Yeah. Fasting for me was so helpful for three years.

It was like the thing, but then I started to recognize I was misusing it. I was. Expecting things from it that I shouldn't have. Like it became to be, and it really is that J curve thing, right? Of growth. And it was like, I experienced such benefits at the beginning and then I didn't. So then I just stopped for a while and I was like, yeah, it's just not the right season.

But then I think you, that same logic, especially applied to something like Sabbath. I don't think this is like a seasonal, . Or can it be, yeah. Cuz I know that perspective of grace and training like, hey, we're all on a different path and so I, I know we like talking about personalizing these practices and so Sabbath for you can look like this Sabbath for you can look like that.

Stages of life, stages of maturity. Those are all different. And they do, but isn't there a point where it's but you still need to do the. . Like I'm worried that we explain it all away, it's just not my season. Yeah. It's hard. It's the rule of life thing. Cuz ultimately what we're doing, our end goal with these practices is to help our community form a rule of life that we can all live by through nine key practices of Jesus.

But the, I think there's a, within the rule of life tradition, that sort of framework, the traditions that use the rule of life is. Idea that your particular rule of life should not be permanent. Like you should be adapting it and revising it based on your season of life, your maturity, but also where God has you, what you're wrestling with, what your vices are in this season versus this season.

What your temptations are and what God is leading you into next. So yeah, there's, I think what's what you're trying to get at is we should lean into some practices more than others based on different seasons and all of the things that you said. All those different. , but finding a way to do that without foregoing the practices in general.

So like you should always. Be generous, but at what point? Like your capacity to be generous, for example, which is one of our later practices. Your capacity to be generous is dependent on your income level, the job that you have, how many kids you have, all of those things. And so you, your rule of life might involve, like right now, God has blessed me with a lot, so I'm gonna be really generous.

But you should be generous even when God hasn't blessed you a lot. So my rule of life, it was much faithful to you. Yeah, my rule of life should involve generosity, but that's not where God is leading. The most I need to really emphasize like Sabbath in my rule of life or something like that. Yeah. I just I guess so, that we've become like a Frankenstein, it's just like little pieces D things, and they're not in a perfect world we're building.

And that's why we've picked Sabbath as a first one.  To build off of. And so then it becomes, I think, the desire. So of course there's grace and there's understanding and there. Hey, you're at where you're at and that's, we're gonna lead you, but we can't force you. , we can't coerce you.

All of those things are true, but like Dallas Willard and his vision of discipleship is to train your way into the. Training yourselves into the way of Jesus where acting like Jesus is second nature. , right? Where he talks about, getting cut off your instinct is to bless that person, not to curse them.

And so that's what we want to get the way of Jesus into our bloodstream, into our marrow. And so then it's yeah, I just do fast twice a week. It's just what I do. . It's just hard, like I think I think other practices, it seems yeah, that's a season and others are like, like scripture.

It's like I find that hard to believe that I'm just in a season where I'm not in the Bible. Yeah. But something like fasting or with something that's even, or simplicity where it's like I'm selling everything minimalism. It's and that to me that makes more sense.

Oh, your kids probably need something to play with, or, yeah. . you're older and you have antiques everywhere, it's it's probably time to move on. So it's, but like scripture reading, you gotta keep doing that. Yeah. But it's Large chunks of scripture for a while, and then right now you're just meditating on one book.

That's, I think that's, I think that's where the wiggle room is. Yeah. So for Sabbath, like you you for example the end goal for this whole two plus year discipleship thing, it's getting like longer and longer I feel like. Yeah. I'm gonna start saying five  discipleship. It's gonna be like new church people when they come in.

Nevermind, you can cut that out . But, the end goal of our, of the, this two plus year of discipleship practices is to have that rule of life. And I think implicit in the rule of life is that you are doing these practices, but the way that you're engaging with them is different. And so Sabbath is one that we hope everybody would continue practicing to the point where it just becomes, and that's why there's such a that's one of the reasons why there's such a long break in between each practice series is so that you can learn to habituate it.

So we spend four weeks teaching on it, and then you have eight more weeks of practicing it. And then by the time we start our next one, it's just a part of you. But then you realize. Okay, I Sabbath comes naturally to me, and that's a, I've embedded that into my bloodstream or whatever.

My, my schedule. That's just a good thing to, to that's like a core part of who I am now is I'm a person who sabbaths, but now my rule of life, like I'm really struggling in generosity. So you just, the way that you practice, some should change. But I think you should always be practicing.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just hard. I get it. I get, this is why people.  don't talk about this topic altogether. Yeah. Because you can be labeled all sorts of things and you can misuse this in incredible ways. , but that's like all good things, right? And it's, yeah, it's hard because what we're trying to do, really, we're trying to make disciples and a disciple is somebody

What a good plan. That's a, you know what I mean? And, but discipleship in our Western 21st century world requires this overhaul of our schedules and our priorities and our values and vices and everything. And so to do that requires us to nuance and parse out, like, how does, because we don't even recognize the ways that we live discipled lives anti way of Jesus, like we're following another way already.

So we need to look at that and examine man, your schedule is great for your productivity, but it's horrible for your soul. So let's rework that and wire that. But for you, your productivity is right where it should be. But your scripture, like it's to be a disciple of Jesus in the 21st century requires this overhaul of our schedules and our lives and everything, which is what makes our job really difficult, but also really exciting and really challenging and all of that.

I think discipleship. Was unlocked for me in understanding how to preach it and how to live it and how to lead people through it. Is first dissecting your life now? Yeah. Like exegeting your worldview today and then the scriptures and saying, yeah, you're exactly right. It's that idea of us being unintentionally formed.

Yeah. By the world. We're always being formed and I think that is what's helpful and that's why you know that phrase.  we've really latched onto, at the end of the day, a lot of the, this whole, the whole reason you come to church, we're actually asking you not to do more, but to do less. Sabbath, in a very real way, is asking a bunch of people to do less things. Yeah. Now you can view it as more, cuz it's one more thing to do, but actually if you do it correctly, there's a lot of other things you're not doing anymore. Yeah. So it is to do less. Yeah. It's just I think the tension we're talking about is people are at different stages of life.

That's when we're just say Holy Spirit, speak through them. I think it's also why our together groups are just as important.  As what we do on Sundays. It's a one-two punch. And so I think group is a great opportunity to start processing those things out loud, saying, Hey, what do you think? Hey let's the wisdom here.

I know I, I asked my group recently what is the spirit telling you? What , how is the spirit telling you to lead this moment? Is there something that you need to speak life into someone else in their situation? Just making them realize the spirit of God is in them.  And they can lead.

So I think the groups are really helpful balance to that. But. Jesus said, come and die. Yeah. Yeah. , it's upholding all those things. And it's also like our role as pastors, part of the shepherding thing is to meet with people and kind of people who want to genuinely say I wanna follow Jesus.

I just don't know what to do. Like, how do I can't sabbath for a 24, but what can I do? And so our capacity to meet with a person who's interested in willing to sit down with them. That's why we're here is so that we can. Here's where we believe God is inviting you to do this, and we can look at your schedule individually and things like that.

So it's not just the teaching on Sunday, it's also the groups, but it's not just the groups, it's also just the one-on-one, like pastoral role that we have. And then also for each other our, I would love for our community to of have that idea of. I can help other people come where I've been as well.

And that's why everything's so communal in nature and I've really been seeing that. It's been really cool just to see, hear about ladies in our church, guys in our church, just going out of their way, reaching out to people, having community, having Sabbath meals. Yeah, it's been wonderful.

It's been such a blessing to see people just take steps of their faith. And to me it's just so refreshing that. We're really packed. As we read the scriptures, it's not just a set of ideas that we say, yeah, that's right. No, it's a whole way of life. , it's the reality that God has set and we're just trying to submit ourselves to it.

And I think that was one last, and I don't know if there's anything else you wanna mention, but one thing I did want to say as we close Hebrews four, we alluded to, How today is the day for Sabbath, not just someday. Yeah. And every stage of life will have an excuse. Yeah. Every stage of life will have an excuse for all of these practices.

I'm not in, it's not time for me to give, it's not, it's saving season. It's, I can't really sabbath. And and I really think Sabbath is probably the idea we all love, but it's a practice most of us loathe. , especially if we're doing it right. And. That's the Holy Spirit's job to, to lead and comfort and convict and, but I really do, I have felt that resistance in my own life.

, oh man, this could be so much easier 10 years from now. Yeah. Or we even the other. Couple weeks ago we had this, I had this moment. I don't know if Shelby would say that she also had this moment, but it was a Friday night and we had our Sabbath candles not lit, and we had all these plans and then it was just a rough night.

Abel was not non-stop screaming. Eden was non-stop screaming. Like we just had these two kids that were like, and we're like, okay, we can't do anything. And in, in my mind, and then I was getting frustrated. Shelby was getting frustrated and we're just trying to relax. It was a long week, all that stuff.

And it was that thing of okay, right now I have a.  in my mind, I have a choice to. Acknowledge that this is just how life is gonna be. And if I don't light the candles and say the prayer, and if we don't gather together and read psalms like we usually do now, then when the kids are teenagers or when like I'm, somewhere else or whatever, like when we're in a different season, like we're never gonna do it.

And so that's why it's I just everybody, and I know the resistance you're talking about, even in our own community, people have pushed back, not. Single person in our church is practicing Sabbath, and that's okay. Yeah. But man, the invitation is if you don't do it now it's hard to imagine that you will just suddenly do it in the future.

But if you do it now, then you have the benefit of Then you're right, it will be better in 10 years because you've been doing it. Because you've been doing it now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's not just gonna get there, but you have the benefit of the community and us and people helping do this with you, that it just seems like such a great time to, to start it now.

And if, and I think if you don't if you have hard time with Sabbath, like scripture reading's gonna be really difficult. Generosity is gonna be hard, silence, whatever. You just wait. Yeah. Just wait. You have no idea what you, but that's the thing. It's like the spirit of God is the one who empowers us to do this in the flesh.

It is impossible. And so that's the tension. We I'm using the word tension too often, but that is what we are wrestling with and I think it's great and I think we need to point out, hey, , there is supposed to be a wrestle. Yeah. Because we are asking you not to work by the flesh, but to walk by the spirit.

We're looking to become Galatians five in reality. . And so good. It's good that you're annoyed. Yeah. That means you're actually wrestling with it. It's good that you feel like it's impossible because it is.  Without Christ and that's why we're doing this as an invitation to step into his grace, his power, his provision and.

I know that from myself. I constantly forget that and I have to constantly bring back my heart to the true north that this is about his grace empowering me, not just forgiving my sin, but giving me the power to live this kingdom life and the here and now. Yeah, he, Trinity has begun. Any last words?

No. Cool. Remember guys, this is not a requirement, but it is a request. , that's how we're viewing it. Not a requirement, but a request. And we hope that you we hope that, this is hard and that we're saying this is not easy, but it's so much better in community and we're stumbling through this together.

And yeah, grace upon grace. Good conversation today. Good conversation today. Grace and peace.